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AI Is Leaving the Chatbox · Hardly Artifical Podcast

• Derek Major: Welcome to Hardly Artificial. We explore tech and the human experience. Sit back, relax, and let's dive in. Alright, listeners, welcome to episode number two of the Hardly Artificial Podcast. I'm Derek Major and this is we're gonna try it again. Mike Bukowitz. Did it this time. We did it. We had crickets literally last time when we did that. So I feel like we're winning. Right? Yeah, exactly. Man. So Well, hey, a lot's been happening since, you know, we just did our first episode was two weeks ago. I was away last week, so now we're gonna get in this cadence where we're doing this every week. And of course next week, listeners, you're gonna hear from us from California as we're attending the AI conference twenty twenty six in San Francisco. looking forward to that, Mike. you'll be there with me. I'm pretty excited about it. A anything that kinda sticks out for you about that conference you're getting excited about? I think what I'm more excited about is not necessarily even just going to it. It's more just seeing who's gonna be there. 'Cause it you know, like in one of the things right now is you know, you get all the hype, you get all the crazy white noise around us, and all I can think is who the heck coming up with this stuff? And now I get to kind of see the the the recipe makers, the people that have their hands deep in it, it's like, okay, I see where the perspective's coming from 'cause I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah, y you know what when I So I did Saster AI back in May and there's a lot of stuff I took away from that. And it I think it I think one of the things are that you start seeing all the companies that are really investing into this stuff 'cause they're sponsoring these events, they're putting on their show, they're up on f up on stage talking about what they're doing. So it's a great way to kind of get exposed to what's out there, not just at the grassroots level, but the ones that are really pumping money into things too. And I feel like those are the ones that You know, they could f fantastically fail, but they could also be the ones that are gonna be the pioneers that kinda lead us to you know, new ideas and new technology, right? All right, so here's here's a crazy question. Ready for this one? Who do you think the next Amazon of the AI world's gonna be? 'Cause remember, nobody really believed in Amazon when he started that off. It was just like, it's just another dot com boom, right? man. You you know what's interesting too, like and we'll get some of our stories, but like the some the big things in the last couple of weeks since we last chatted, like it's it's so hard to answer like open AI anthropic. I think since we spoke they wrote that big letter, you know, doomsday and all that. I I'm not I don't subscribe to the whole doomsday thing. I I feel like I'm very much the opinion, like if if you're building a product, don't release a product that's not safe. I I I I do agree with that. That premise. I know the NVIDIA CEO is very much of that opinion too. Obviously they all have their conflicting biases and interests too. but you know, I used to think that these these these two AI companies are gonna be the ones that lead us with AI, but I I'm not so sure anymore. And I think back to Facebook in two thousand five when that came out, that wasn't the most popular social media platform at the time. Mm. But they executed so well. And how many stories, you know, as a Canadian too, the first smart real smartphone was a Blackberry. And we all know what happened to the Blackberry, right? iPhone came in and just killed it because they got complacent. They they had this massive lead. Like they had like a seventy I think it's seventy percent market share at one point on the smartphone market and they blew it. They just and I think the complacency they got in there and so when you ask like who the Who's gonna be like I don't even know what I like you say Am the Amazon for shopping, like I don't know, things are gonna be so different. And when I talk about some of the stories, like Facebook is one is one of my stories today that I I I don't know. Do you have something on your mind that kind of c makes you think about what it might be? no, that's what I'm asking. 'Cause it's honestly it's it's it's all it's all over the place. Like I just you hear, you know, different stories every time. I mean even just the I think it I think there was one that was called not it was like This AI that envisions an imagery of what it's building. And it's this new thing going out now that I noticed that I was just kind of poking around at. And all all I could think is, okay, well, that's going to that's a niche, right? Yeah, that's something that people might pick up on because they're visual learners. But for those that are conversationalists, the LLMs are still going to be powering that. And that's the majority of the market. So it's just awesome to see the expanse expansion of not just one form. I think that's what I'm excited about is It's not the same thing over and over. It's hey, here's another way to look at it. Fantastic. Well, that that's where it's like the whole premise of jobs are gonna be gone. I I think I talked about last time. Yeah. Jobs are not gonna be gone, they're gonna change, they're gonna be different. And the cool thing is there's gonna be all kinds of new jobs out there. And depending on who you're talking to, this isn't one of my stories today, but there's a big thing in the Linux world. Like Linux is taking off like crazy right now. there's a guy, the Basecamp founder Who's kind of leading that charge and he has a lot of backing too. And they're taking Linux and creating a distribution of Linux that's like almost vibe coded in a way. And he he proudly admits it too, saying, You know, we we b we love vibe coding. I don't look at code anymore. I trust the agents are gonna do all the work. And he's d has c agents vibe coding it. He has agents validating the code and doing all the quality assurance and all that. And I've I've played with this Omachi is the name of the of the distribution. It it's pretty cool. He's a f he's a controversial guy, so I I'm not gonna get too much into that. but the the bottom line is is that people are coming up with pretty cool stuff and it's all because of AI, but they're they're doing it in different ways and it's the role of an engineer, a software engineer has changed so much to I still think code's important a little bit for now. but I can understand from a business perspective why you might not want software engineers looking at code anymore. You might just want them to be doing, you know, guiding and overseeing and Man, to be a product manager right now that has technical chops, I think that's where where it's at, right? So I mean we're we're looking at the trend of what you talked about last time, which is that expert in the room of being able to guide the movement. It has nothing to do with just one type of expertise. That's the thing we're starting to see right now is it's a multi it's a duplicity. Of hey, you gotta understand the bridging the gap versus what it actually will do versus hey, what's the safety regulations? I mean there's a lot to know and good news is everything's available. That's the good news, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So well should we jump into stories, get in t get going on that then? I wanna I wanna hear I wanna hear a good one. Give me a good one. Give me good one. Okay. Well I I'm gonna start off with I always have my side project stuff on tinkering with but we'll we'll start with the news headline which is last couple days. Actually yesterday at Metaconnect, Mark Zuckerberg and his his his group there came out and announced a ton of new products. it's not even just the products but like the AR the AI AI is I guess you call it AI. AI VR, the VR set headset they're coming out for twelve ninety nine US. Yeah. it looks sl it looks like something Apple should have came out with honestly. so I I I saw that, but that wasn't the coolest thing. There was this little gadget that they had, which has like a little avatar character on it. It's it's like Muse, Facebook Muse in your pocket. So those that don't know what Facebook Muse is, Muse is the new personal digital assistant you can install on your Windows or Mac computer and you give a control to everything. This I know this is sound crazy. I w I'm not doing that, I'll tell you flat out. Lots of people are though. It's a very consumer oriented product. They've talked about a lot of the safety and a lot of security things that they put into the product. But the idea is you have this real digital assistant that you can actually ask to go shop, go do things. Amazon apparently this morning I read an announced that they're banning Muse for now. I'm sure they'll work that out. I saw But then on the flip side, Shopify said, Hey Thumbs up, let's partner together. Yeah. So you can absolutely see those bills lined up, right? Right. So this whole digital assistant thing is so cool on your computer and all that. and and then Zuck comes out with this, you know, this pendant pretty much that has all of it baked into it, right? And it's using their own models, their own technology. It's not open AI. It's not anthropic. It's it's really interesting that Facebook Who's always been trying to catch up to Apple is almost doing the Apple Playbook by coming in a little bit late. And now that app is like number one on the app store for on the on the iPhone side of things. And so to me, Facebook and Muse is this new thing that is enabling consumers more than ever to actually start thinking about things other than their iPhone or their phone or the Android phone or whatever whatever device they have in their hands. It is I feel like it's actually the beginning. stages of new form factors that don't require the traditional, you know, candy bar slab phone. And I I I think that this is the start of it. Muse is the start of it. And I don't know if that's gonna be the end game. And actually going back to what you're saying, what you think the next Amazon could be? Man, it's quite timely if Facebook came in and did that. And they did it not in a desperate way. Whereas when the Apple Vision Pro came out It felt very desperate when they were launching MetaQuest and all these things to say, look at us, we're just as good, we're just as good. And yeah, there was references to Apple here and there, but it was it was like alm it was really standing on its own and it wasn't trying to compete back against what Apple had already done or any other vendor. Like this is actually Facebook coming out with new categories in their own own sense and own way than, you know, rather be an influence. So so that's my Big thing about that. So would you actually wear would you wear a pendant like that? A muse pendant, like and give it access to everything you have? You know, it's funny you bring that up because I was trying to figure out a way to extract as much value out of this conference we're going to, and I was like looking at all like the hardware out there just out of curiosity of like, all right, what are people using? I have no clue. And, you know, like the palm, you there's all those other ones that you can have attachments to, things of that nature, and there's subscription services. Yep, exactly. Right? They discontinued that a couple days ago, by the way. really? Yeah. They they they they I think they've realized they have way too much stock and yeah. But but like I was looking at and I I would say in a professional sense, I would. For a personal, no. And the biggest difference for me is I use and again, this is this is my own take on it, so this is not somebody who has to agree with this at all. AI is enabling me to have a life away from technology. And that's how I foresee it. Like, you know, if I were at if I was in person meetings or trying to capture information on a client call or in on site or whatever it might be, you know, we're you know, our organization walks through manufacturing worlds and construction sites. I mean, it's impossible to take out your phone 'cause that's actually a safety hazard. So having something like that, I could see benefiting something like that group, right? However, I'm a big proponent of separating myself from tech when I can. And I like to have that separation because it refreshes the thought process around the human side of that technology too. So I I think it's a balance. I I don't think I'd wear it like 100% of the time. I would say, hey, this is an eight to five pendant. Right. That's kind of what my mind goes with it. Well, and I wonder too, like it's funny you mentioned this, like you wouldn't, but and a as we get older, I mean, how often do we we make fun of boomers? Right? Okay. All the baby boomers. We're always we're always thinking we're always thinking about like, hey, like they had enormous wealth op growth opportunities, right? That's especially up here in Canada. You hear about that all the time. Yeah. you hear about you know, they live they worked at the same job for forty years. they did all these th like they took all these things, I wouldn't say for granted, but now as I get older and I look at my kids, I kinda go We're talking about yeah, there's no way I'm gonna do that, but man, this is all these kids know. This is they're they've they're growing up with this stuff. Like it's gonna be like is your AI dog pet gonna be your all they ever know? Like that that just is a thing as they grow up as a baby? Like and then their mind their minds that generations ab after us will be a lot different in their mindset and I'm sure it's or even like music. I used to think about my dad's music was crazy. Maybe my kids still think that too, but I I I remember saying that all the time, but what what are they gonna be the what's gonna be the old man porch comments that we're gonna be yelling at at the kids, right? And I wonder if this is gonna be one of them where we're like, There's no way. Like I'm gonna use a laptop. Like I'm gonna be a laptop guy. Let's be honest. They're like, No, here's my pendant. I I just talked to my little buddy Jimmy or whatever you wanna call it, I don't know. Okay, I don't know why this came to mind, but you remember those commercials of like Help I Fallen and I can't get up? That's what it reminds me of with this pendant when we're old. Yeah. It's just gonna be AI. It's just gonna be like help me, please. Well i i I feel like yeah, you're gonna be yelling at your pendant, yeah. It's like help me, get me out of here. Like by the way, what's the weather? yeah. So anyway, so yeah, mut Muse is like my my my thing this week. I thought that was f quite fascinating. It is. I was just impressed by meta and how they stood up and they've had some pretty big swings in the last couple year, like the meta quest and the whole metaverse was this whole big thing for them. That's why they're called meta. And they they spectacularly failed at that. But I feel like they've kind of found a niche that I think is gonna work well, so I I'm excited to see what they come out with here. And that those the the the the VR glasses look slick. Like like I said, it really feels like something Apple should have came out with. but again we'll see when it comes out. I think it comes out the spring. So we'll you know, we'll definitely have to as as you know me, Tinker around and try out some new tech and see how that works out too. And well, I think a lot of this stuff is very fascinating. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, man, so what you got? What what what do you got on your docket here? You know, it's funny. There was a s I was gonna bring a story that was a personal experience at the doctor's office recently that was really interesting. they were I was just talking to the the attendant about like, you know, okay. What are you guys using now technology wise? Because I was just curious. We were waiting on, I think it was the vaccine or something to get ordered or whatever. And what's funny is she's like, well, actually, matter of fact, we're using an approved and it's not it's not technically a FDA approved in the US style of tech, but it is it is agreed to be utilized. So it's a basically open AI. I know it is, because when I saw it, I I the as soon as I saw the design that I was like, that's open AI. That's 100% open. It's just with a skin on it. But it is in fact very knowledgeable around it can prescribe and diagnose things with ninety percent accuracy, which is basic language. And I thought that was really interesting. Is it like a transcriber or like what what is it? It's it's just a chat, it's just a chat bot right now. There isn't there isn't anything like they just type in like what they think that you know as they would type in notes and then then it comes out with here's some things to talk to the patient about, here's some questions to ask. But it's very medically focused, right? So it's all those journals and studies and things of that nature. So I thought that was fascinating. And then I saw this story, and I'm going, boy. So I have to share this. The autonomous agents are outrunning guardrails now. And we know that. We've seen that, right? We talked a little bit around one of those that happened, but this one is actually an open AI research agent that actually outran the security on an Australian Medicare statistics system in June. They just found this out. So what what I under what I learned was it wasn't caught until August because authorities weren't notified till September tenth. They they called it the delay unacceptable policy. And the biggest issue right now is they they want to know how to draft a kill switch. And that's been the topic, right? And the fact that this converged with what I experienced, I'm going, okay, there's good stuff, and then you hear this and you're going, what do I do with this information? Like this is insane insanity. Like it's just it's just out of control. Now There's a good chance, and I'm just I from my gut and what it's telling me now is there's a good chance somebody didn't do their due diligence. Somebody's clicked a button or approved a pathway or something in the design that caused this, but who knows? I I we don't know unless there's more data to it. So that was an interesting topic. I don't know. What your thoughts on that? I immediately I'm thinking about going back to we were talking about earlier as we started the show here today. Those letters I went out. Like I I think I think you're gonna start hearing more stories about I told some maybe I told you this maybe I told a few people. Like in the next six, twelve months, expect a lot of articles about hacks. Mm and so i it doesn't surprise me to hear that. I think I read a little I think I saw the headline on what you're talking about. I didn't look into it, so but my initial gut is yeah, you're probably right. It's there's guardrails, but are there guardrails? Like it's the these these companies are I feel like the whole Hugging Face thing that we talked about last time was blows my mind. Like, why isn't there a lawsuit? Why is Hugging Face not suing open AI? But no, they're they're out like open AI is out there like, hey, look, our agent hacked this. Da da da da. It's like, well if anybody found like a hacker, like let's say you were a hacker and you hacked into Hugging Face and did a bunch of stuff You are gonna get sued. You're probably gonna get arrested actually. So what is going on here? Like I don't understand why they get away with all this. Is it because of all the money tied up? Is it a money conversation? I don't really understand that. So I'm I'm like really concerned that they're asking for all these guardrails and all these things like rules and kill switches and all that. And Jensen from NVIDIA, the CEO, he made it perfect he perfect put it perfectly. There's already laws in place for this stuff for exactly that. You should be arresting these people. If there's someone's breaking into someone's house, you arrest them. And they go through due diligence and all that stuff, right? and product safety, like you shouldn't be releasing products unless you know they're safe. That's why we have and I don't know if we have to go the whole route of like automobiles, right? To the point like fifty years ago do we have seatbelts? No. Now seat belts are mandated all everywhere, right? across Canada and US and around the world. I think most of the world. I'm pretty sure there's some countries that don't have seatbelts. that's a whole different conversation. But really if you think about like why are we not do we have to go through this whole evolution of somebody makes it worse for everybody else, we've got to put another rule on, put another rule on, and eventually we have all the rules in place 'cause now we've figured out all the problems. But I feel like there's a lot of rules already in place that some reason they're getting dismissed and like I know the Australian government Talk to Sam Altman. I think I I saw that part of the headline. Yeah. Yeah. And like what do you say? Like, Sam, why'd you do that? You're such a bad man. Like, no, here's my lawyer. We're we're you know, or we're blocking you. Whatever it is, like there's and the whole kill switch thing, like I I feel like it's called turn off the power, at least right now. I I can see that changing down In decades from now for sure. Yeah. But right now I I I maybe I'm just too ignorant, but I don't think I am, but I think we're still at a stage where you could turn it off. Like I know local models I'm running on my laptop, I can just turn off my laptop and we're okay. Yeah. And I realize a lot more complexities involved with what OpenAI and Anthropic are doing and Google and all that, but I don't feel like it's that far off for them to do the same thing. So that's my thought. Yeah. Interesting. I I like I don't know what to think about it. What I I can tell you though is it just makes me think about every single advancement in anything, for that matter. And there's always this moment of we're gonna make mistakes and we're gonna make rules around those mistakes. Now, we're gonna overengineer because government's so involved, it's just gonna be just more red tape. That's what's gonna happen. The creativity's gonna get stifled. However I believe there is an opportunity here in this moment to basically show what's good out there too and say, Hey, if you do it the right way, look at the results you can have to improve quality of life. Like I think there is that next step, but I don't think we're quite there yet 'cause we're still exploring every possibility of it. Totally. Well, I don't wanna leave this your story on a negative note. So I I'll I will say a positive thing about my medical visit I had with my son last week. Yeah. I sat down And the doctor looked at me and said, Are you okay if I transcribe this call with A this this this appointment with AI? And I was like, Absolutely. I love it. What a great idea. so I that's why I was asking about transcribing because that's that's that's what they did. Now she uses that to obviously recollect what happened during the call or in the meeting. We were in person. So it was like an in person thing too. but I love that because These are specialists, so he had to see a specialist. And they're they are specialists, but they can't the brain is only what the brain is. And we're all human. And I love the fact that it might prompt her with other things she might not have thought of based on the conversation it heard from me. I thought it was awesome. I thought it was great. I see a lot of great practical uses on that. Yeah. and knowing it's a the British Columbia government, I'm pretty sure it is not open AI or Anthro it's probably Microsoft. Which I can't believe I I prefer Microsoft these days 'cause they just if they don't lock it down, they will get sued for many things and 'cause it's Microsoft. So anyways, I just want to leave it on that thought. But Yeah. Yeah. that's cool. Should we keep the AI topic or I think I think we go any direction at this point, honestly. Yeah. Well, my my next thing is on is something I've been tinkering with a lot, that I've known about for a while. You know OpenClaw from earlier in the year we were we were tinkering around with that. Mm-hmm. and and then all of a sudden Claude and, you know, OpenAI and all start catching up and stuff. Still not to the level OpenClaw does. although I think OpenClaw, I think the founder works for OpenAI now. But the other one is Hermes or Hermes. I'm not sure how to pronounce it. I call it Hermes because Hermes sounds like it's the the you know, the the bag, the clothing. Right. The fancy, fancy luxury stuff that my wife would probably buy and I won't. Just 'cause I wouldn't know what I'm buying. But I did install the yeah, I did install the AI agent on my Mac Mini. And I'm in love. It's pretty slick. it reminds me of open claw, but it's a lot more polished. I think it's come a long way, is probably part of the reason 'cause it's been out for a while too. Yeah. But I I've said it, I'm only scratching the surface on it right now, but the cool thing about it is you can hook it up to all any model. You want to do open AI, go for it. Which is what I'm doing. Wanna do cloud? Go for it. You want to use a local model? Sure. Gemini? Why not? So you get but here here, it's even better, is that you can actually set up multiple different bots. So you can have what Hermes is is the orchestrator, and as it gets tasks, it picks a different bot to do work. So one bot might be hooked up to OpenAI, another one hooked up to Gemini, another one's doing your local model stuff. And it's all done on one application on your desktop, computer, wherever you want, or you could do it in the cloud, in a VPS, a virtual private server. like an Amazon, Azure, or DigitalOcean, any of those. You can do it on there. So I got it set up and I communicate with it. I can log in through a remote desktop, but even cooler is I hooked it up to Slack. So I'm talking to it on Slack, just like I would be talking to you on Slack. And yesterday I I'm working on I'm we're setting up my fractional CTO business and I have my run top methodology I'm building out. I have it all documented, I have all the notes created and all that, but I I've started working on the webpage. I did the first page. Like, man, you know what? I got the format down. You know what? I'm gonna get Hermes to do this. So I took the 13 Word documents, dropped them into Slack, Hermes, look at the page that I already created in WordPress, recreate the format, and here's the other instructions. I gave a couple more bullet points. And go. Go create the rest of the pages. And then off it went. I left the office. I I drove home, got home. I'm getting little pings from Hermes on Slack as I'm going along. I get home, like, it miss it it needed clarification on something on one of the pages, so I I responded back. And then whatever, I wandered off, got the kids and whatnot. And then I took a look at it after and all the web pages are done. Nice. And I'm like, wow, hey, Hermes, can you now go update the index page? Like there's an index page too. Go update the index page and went and updated all the links on there and and the page is pretty much done. I'm gonna go polish some more stuff off and I'll probably gener you think about some other ideas, but wow. Like it's it's literally like having I feel like I'm talking to a person in a way 'cause it's actually doing things so effectively. And since it's on a Mac mini on its own own profile, I'm only giving it access to its own stuff. Like it doesn't have access to any of my anything anything on there. This is what I did with Open Clause, same same idea as I just give it its own profiles, its own computer. And then I gave it access to WordPress. And that's the only thing I've given it access to, but I could give it access to other things too, which I may do as I expand on the use of it. But so Hermes is like pretty awesome. So nice. Nice. What do think? You gonna get Hermes? I mean eventually, yes. it it reminds me of the commercial Claude put out recently where like that guy is like, you know, he's like, yeah, I'm gonna go do my boxing or whatever in the gym and he like turns it on to do all his work and he comes back and he has the report ready on his desktop. I think it's a creative commercial. Yeah. I think the message is stronger though. It's like you just I mean, you basically just stated what what it said, right? Is you you can walk away, you've already done the hard work, why waste time on the administrative side? And it's funny, I just had this topic for my content series I've been working on where it's like everybody's standing at the shore standing and just staring at the waves, but nobody knows how to get past the white noise. Like everybody's just kind of like, okay, we're there. No, you're not. There's there's a whole nother level. You don't even know that's there because you don't get out there. You don't know what's there. And I think this I think that conversation right there, you just gave a real time example. I mean that's that's what we can achieve, but you have to know what how to get there. That's the problem. You got to navigate through the white noise to find out what works. Well I'll give you one other example. I th I haven't implemented it yet, but I I think about how we do contracts at Elugio or how you guys do contracts there. And I think we could find us doing a situation where a customer contract comes back where you could take the contract, drop that into Slack to Hermes and say, Okay, we got a new contract for a customer, can you prepare this and send it out to for signature? And already have that defined skill of what they have to do. So Hermes could just take the document, they can go to DocuSign, because it can log into a browser, it can load up the document, it can fill in all it all who needs to receive what. because it could g it then it could update Hubspot at the same time. And then it'll send out the contract. And the way in listeners, how how Eligio does it is the the Eligio site always gets the contract first just to validate to make sure it's valid and everything looks good. So that that wouldn't change. That's still your stop that's still a stop gap. It's no different than having an inmin person do that actual step and But now Hermes is doing it and it gets sent out. that that was and sorry, and then one other example I we were just I was just talking with Catherine today is the commission reports that we do. So when we do commissions for our salespeople, like trying to map what accounts they have and all this stuff too. Well, you could just dump like the sales report for that month into Slack, hey Hermes, here's the commission report. Can you make sure all the commission reports are completed? It could then go to all these different sources and do all the steps that it needs to do and then spit out the report. And if it's get if it has an exception, it could email the sales manager. Hey, s Kevin, can you just take a look at this, the following three items? I'm not hundred percent sure which they go to because the information's inaccurate in HubSpot. Or whatever. Or no one's assigned to it. And then Kevin could respond back to Hermes, say, this is g this goes to John, this goes to Bill, this goes to Bob and then Hermes goes and updates it because it's an interactive agent and does its thing. So I love that. And going back to Claude, I don't think Claude I think Claude has so and for for good reason, has a lot more permissions in place. Yeah. Yeah. You know it does. So and I think Hermes Open Claw it is the Wild West. You need to know what you're doing. I think that's this this could be another job in the future, right? This is the the AI agent creator manager. That's what I'm gonna call it. Yeah, right. You're just rang you're just out in the plains of, you know, the unknown, man. Yeah, exactly. Anyways, that that's that's Hermes for me and Yeah. Well let's let's before we get to our segment, let's hear let's hear your last story and our last story for today's episode. And I I was interested following it. So those of you that don't follow sports The MLB instituted a basically a robot or an AI bot that was major league baseball, right. And it was interesting, it caught attention and obviously now they've got more of the AI cameras that are re are gonna watch the pitch and then the catcher can challenge it. So it's been a joke, right? It's been a joke for I don't know, months. I think it's hilarious because it's like the whole point of sports is there's humans on humans, right? And Human error is part of it, right? If there's a bad call, that's part of sports, man. That's just bad luck. It is just like replacing the umpire? Yeah, that's what they want to do. Yeah, it's really controversial. So I want to give you the next level that just happened. So the NBA just and this is National Basketball Association, just announced that they are going to start utilizing automated ball strike challenge system, well in in the MLB, but also Hawkeye in the NBA games. So what they're calling this is they are this is going to be replacing not only the NBA refs but NFL refs because now it can actually make the call and blow the whistle and blow dead the clock because the clock issues are always a big issue, right? They don't they don't stop on time, things of that nature. But on May twenty seventh, Adam Silver said the NBA plans to hand out out of bound calls to an automated system rather than the refs. So they're just starting to pull back their control. And I go I I saw that and I was just going and I don't know why I didn't see it before 'cause I follow sports quite closely. But all I could all I could think, all I could see, and these are the words I I had to pull them up because I did not believe it. Those calls will be done by an AI automated system. Files and other judgments will still be referees, but I that's not the end of it. Let's be honest. Like this is just the start. Is is is there such a thing I know in the like again, Canadian hockey. Is there a referees association or something like that? Well yeah, big time. yeah. Matter of fact, they might they must be they must be pissed. they're they're pissed, but here here's the thing that I think about. And my grandpa was a official back in the day, right? Now you got to see hear all those stories. He he refed in the games with Michael Jordan in college and things of that nature. Really? yeah, I still have the card that got signed by Michael Jordan when he was in college. It Mike Jordan. It wasn't even Michael at that point. That's the hilarious part. Really? yeah. yeah. Is it like sealed up and protected and yeah, it's sealed up, protected. yeah. It's pretty cool. It's really cool. but was fascinating about it is if I would have if I remember talking about officiating and every single time it wasn't about getting the right call, it was owning the call you made. So like looking back at like all this stuff, I think this has a lot to do with the fact that there has been a lot of controversy around when you make a bad call, there's a lot of excuses around it. Instead of saying, Yep, that's on me and then the call gets overturned and then there's all this hypocrisy around it. I think they're trying to Trying to remove that in the professional world. Now will it travel to college? I can't tell you. I don't know. Yeah. It but I think it's just due to the fact there's so much money wrapped around these things. They don't want the risk anymore. And that that's the riskiest call in the basketball world is out of bounds. Like you don't know. It it you just ha it's happened so fast you don't know. NFL's gonna do it too. Like they already they already said that. So like there's the it's infiltrating sports now, and I'm just curious in your perspective, does that take the human element of like these athletes out of it because now it's like not human judging human, it's technology basically just taking the guessing game out of the sport. I don't know. Yeah. What's there's a dystopian movie. I think from the eighties, nineties or something. They're like on roller skates and skating around in circles. You're what's I know what you're talking about. Okay. I'm pretty sure Catherine will look it up and post it on the podcast for us 'cause 'Cause everybody needs to know this. Yeah, I know I was like, Yeah, or some people are always screaming it. We actually if we have listeners, they'll be screaming it. Yeah. They but it reminds me I I think back to was it even another it might have been don't know, Demolition Man or something like that. A different movie where the remember when the XFL was around? yeah. yeah. When the XFL came out and this was prominent in this particular movie. I may not but Demolition Man might have been before XFL. But whatever movie that was, I remember it was just in there and just everything is they're trying to be more futuristic, thinking what the future might be a sport. And I I I think of those things right away that we're starting to live that sci fi reality. 'cause yeah. Everything's possible. Everything's possible. That's that's the scary part, but also kind of awesome at the same time. Like it's Yeah. I have mixed mixed feelings about everything. And honestly What we're about to jump into is gonna create some mixed feelings too, I bet you anything. Yeah, right. Yeah. But yeah, I I I don't know, man. Like I think I think sport I I in Canada it's it's interesting when we think of sport for hockey specifically. Mm. It's very controversial whenever changes happen. In the nineties was a big change for hockey. like back then in the nineties, like different like at the Boston Garden. had different dimensions of a rink. I think that was the arena where or it might have been Montreal, Montreal Forum. Where the benches the door opened inside the blue line. So if you're offside, like you would be offside every time. But then you go to Boston Garden and it was the other way around. So now they're all c they're all exactly the same 'cause they're all modern rinks and all that. Right. But that was kind of the character of sport back then. It's like, man, we're going in Montreal. Don't forget about the off sites, you know, like that kind of thing and because you're going into their barn. I thought, you know, now everything's got standards and structure and well I love all that stuff. It's I think as AI comes in, there will be I think a limit at some point where people are like, You know, like I I still prefer that the character building aspects of things. whereas I think AI is just another you know, just another thing that gets brought in that I I I I don't know. Will they will they ever backtrack on it? That's a possibility too. not not to compare it so much, but in the late nineties, like when Fox in the US was doing hockey, they had the glowing puck. And there hasn't been a glowing puck since then. Yeah. Yeah. and so I wonder if they ever backtrack on stuff. So it'll be fascinating to see how that changes and evolves, but I don't know. Like I I I I hate yeah, I I see her coming. Don't don't mess with my sports. You know? It's I watch for a reason, because they're to entertaining. If they become too standardized and it just it's just more what what did you say opposed to lately more AI slop? Like that's what it's gonna turn into. AI slop, man. Like now we're gonna introduce it there and it's like it's like anything though, like everything's so expensive. Like sports is so expensive to watch. These people get paid so much money. So much money. Tickets are so expensive. And I don't like again, referencing hockey again, you go to a Vancouver Canucks game, the joke in Vancouver it's like going it's like it's a corporate environment. 'Cause most of the people buying tickets, I mean we're guilty, we we we buy tickets and give them away. But the environment's just not I w I would probably and I haven't been to a game in Europe but think about football in Europe. Like I hear there's like rabid fans. Like I hear they're super passionate, they're painting up faces and Jersey's like it's a thing, right? If you ever watch Rexham, Yep. you know, R Ryan Reynolds and Rob always Sunday and Philadelphia guy. I don't know his last name. I can't his last name. But when they bought that team, like the whole documentary around that, you kinda see like these these are passionate fans. It's not corporate environment. Sure they have corporate sponsors, but it's way different than North American sport. So I I yeah I kinda miss that stuff, right? And when people make that much money And the tickets become that much money, you're gonna lose out on that piece and so I don't know where that goes, but anyways. I guess I I we have some sadness today. Like I feel like we just got some more sadness now. I feel like sports dying a little bit, so it's It is. It is. It's been dying ever since money entered in anyway, so whatever. Yeah, it's just yeah. Anyways, let's let's leave it off that and I think we can have some little bit of fun now. So so listeners, today again our second episode. We're gonna have a little bit of fun. this is one of our segments. We plan on doing a different segment every week. we'll change it up the different ideas and things and of course love to hear feedback as we go along with this. today we're gonna do something called prompt roulette. So the challenge is and we're putting Mike on the spot today is he's gonna pull up his AI tool of choice and he doesn't know what prompt I'm gonna give him. And I want him to go build something, is the idea. So he might pick a tool that will not accomplish it. He might pick a tool that does it perfectly. He might pick a tool that who knows what's gonna happen. And that's kind of the fun part of this is that I think that, you know, this this is kind of a cool way of seeing how you can play with an experiment with things. So Yep. So to get started, the first thing is we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna see what Mike's come up with. He's gonna share his screen on here in a second. So if you're on If you're just listening on audio, we'll just describe as we're going through here. I'm gonna ask him questions about his his tool of choice. We're gonna be sports. So we'll we'll do that and then we'll just talk through it and sometimes depending on the tool, how long it takes to actually build out the whatever the solution is, the prompt, we'll see how that goes and just kind of play around with it. So unpredictable, real life scenario that you could try at home or at work. Wherever you are or in an airplane, which you can do these days. yes, you can. So Mike, let's turn over to you. W w share your screen and tell us before I get to the prompt that I'm gonna have you do, what what is your weapon of choice today? So just like you said, we want people to be able to like experiment a little bit with us, or you go and do it you know on your own preferred channel. I didn't want to pick an odd pick an obvious one. So I just went into the depths and unfortunately It's a little bit of a risky call here, but I'm gonna go with Hugging Face today with the hugging chat. Yeah, and this is the hugging chat that allows us to actually have this discussion. It's free. That's why I'm doing it. So it's somebody if somebody wants to get a little experimental today, they can do that. But what what the call is it like a free version or what like Yeah, it's a free version. So like you can just go literally to hugging face dot CO slash chat and you can basically pull this up just like I did. Why is And this is Hugging Face's product then? This is Hugging Face's product. So I'm like strapping questions. I I actually have other than talking about them getting hacked, I haven't and knowing that NVIDIA purchased them, that's about the extent I know. So this is pretty cool. I I haven't actually seen this one. So So the reason why I picked this one because it when I read about it, it has some potential around like you can even see some of these prompts up here of like generate an image, which everybody can do now. Make my website, which we just talked about. Like there's some things that it's already giving ideas of, but The reason why is because it has an ML intern setting. And I'm actually curious what that does because it was talking as if it learns to then create more agents, but I don't know how good it is. So what we'll do is we'll start off in the standard, which is the MCP two and it has like all the basics on it. You can even do ML idea. I'm not gonna do that today. We'll we'll do that later. But one of the things that you can see here is we're doing the new Deep Seek. It does pull off of Deep Seeks. Standard. We're going overseas for this one. Exactly. Cool. So we can see this in everything. I know, right? I better type fast. Well, okay, here, well, here. Let me give you the prompt that I'd like you to throw in here. So whatever want to you can Do you wanna send it to me so that we can not everybody else Well I'm gonna let you write it. I'm gonna I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna let you re write it how you f think it'll work. Okay. Alright. 'Cause and maybe in the future I'll just I'll copy paste a couple of prompts and let you pick one. really do roulette but Okay. so I what I'd like you to do is create a vacation tracker that people can submit their vacation to but then also have it show how much vacation that they have left. Okay. Alright, we'll we'll stick with this. Any chat. Yeah, it's it's that's why I picked it because I was I didn't want to go down the route of getting too complex. But So I'm curious to see like is this thing gonna produce artifacts? Is it gonna produce code? Like this is gonna be curious to see what it comes back with, right? So So we're gonna we're gonna put in a qualifier here. good call. Because because if I just do that, it's gonna do something funky. Alright, so we're gonna And I typed in the common point for everybody when you're doing a prompt too is to be very descriptive because it's no different we talked about before, hire an intern. You want to make sure you give them all the instructions. You can't just assume, right? Now, I'm gonna add a little a little caveat that I use sometimes. And I like to do this So what we'll do is we're gonna type in the the idea around walk me through the framework in the window before producing. So we're gonna try this out. So what we've typed is build a vacation tracker app that people can submit requests to and show the vacation balance and ensure that the balance is not exceeded. I put that a caveat in there because that's one thing I know will be required. Walk me through the framework in the window before producing. So cool. We're are we ready? You ready to do this? What are we? All right, we're gonna give it a second. All right. So this is one thing I like about Yes. It puts the thinking in here. Now it's it's going fast. I can't read any of it. Sorry for those of you not here. But one thing that's nice about it is it's going through the reasoning and the coding. Did you know that? Ooh, nice. We should definitely do that. Sorry. but it's going through you can see I just noticed it's going through the calendar days and the and some of the the off days, like the holidays, which is something I didn't even think about until I just saw those dates. It's going pretty fast. Like this is actually a lot faster than I thought it would run. I thought it was gonna take, you know, a while to r resonate. But that is a pretty good prompt though. That's that's a pretty standard one I would say. Yeah. Well I didn't want to make it too complex because if we're here for hours that could be a bit of a problem. So although we're waiting on here, like I I'm just curious, like as I'm looking on on your screen here, like in the bottom left, I see models a hundred forty. Does that that's just a hundred and 'cause I know Hugging Face has lots of access to models. Is that just like a number of models you have available to you? I think so. I think because it pulls from different what I read it was pulls from different models across the LLM, so it's not like, you know, one model you can say like, hey, I want to do it. Dude you can see there's two MCC MCP servers it's pulling from too. look at that. It's already showing so this one's gonna produce code. Cool. Okay. Yeah. I think there's a preview too. Yeah, there's a preview toggle. So we'll be able to see we'll be able to see it once it finishes. But it's building it now. So it already I'm wondering. Let's look at the quickly it put in some of the detail in here. Framework walkthrough, here you go. So data layers. Yep. Domain layer, yep. View layer. huh. Dayzo, okay, so the different functions and all that. So this looks like it's produced in JavaScript, it looks like, from the looks of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does. I I don't know if it's a framework involved, but it looks it might even be pure JavaScript. Okay, this is interesting. Look at this. Request state machine. It actually made an assumption that we wanted pending to approved and rejected and cancelled. So I didn't I didn't specify that. So it's already looking at past the prompt to be able to infer on what it's doing. So that's really interesting. Are you saying we're not the first ones to come up with a vacation tracker? No, this this is invention one one right here. This is what we got, right? But the one thing I want and it just rendered and we'll look at it here in a second and play with it. But like this one right here, holiday aware accounts. There you go. That's what I s I noticed in the code when it was running. And then the UX composition. Okay. Okay. So Okay. I love this. Check this out. What do you think of this? Try this. it's putting QA in there. That is interesting. I've never seen that done before in like other ones. You have to specify you want QA. That did it on purpose. So maybe we should follow that. So it's with Maya selected ten ten vacation days free to default October fifth. So then click Priya. So let's just click on these and let's just see what see what's going on here. So this is the preview, obviously. Make it a little bigger. look at that. That's pretty sad that's slick. Yeah. they put the manager button. Yeah, easy. Now now obviously for those of you that are watching or those of you listening, the other thing you have to think about, and this is something that most people get stuck on, is the hosting of it, right? You can have this built and pretty and with UI and a functional to code, but you gotta remember to for it to be functional and use usable, you gotta get it in somewhere hosting, right? But the fact that we got this farming. Exactly. And like here we go. There's there's the approval stuff. Yeah. This is for a manager view by the way, that's what we're in right now. Approve go approve someone's. See what happens. Let's see how see what's happening if you click on approve for pre up. Yeah, there we go. It's approved. If we go to pre up, there there it is. That's I mean yeah. The fact it made it this fast, that's impressive. it was well done. Well this is why I think a lot of people get excited about the idea of replacing a lot of the software they subscribe to. But I guess we should be cautious too. Like this is as pretty as it looks, it's missing a lot of features, I think, too, right? Like number one, you don't want to toggle manager mode on. You're probably gonna want authentication. Exactly. And then you might, if you're a bigger company, you might want to have authentication baked into your enterprise logins. like single sign on. So I think there's that too. But from a first draft, pretty slick. Do you and then for those of you it was I was just playing around with the submission and the request time off it actually reduced the pending you can see here of the pending days that I just requested seven, reduced it down and I bet you anything you come down here, and that was Lucas, there it is right there. So seven working days, if I approve that, then if you come back up, there you go. So I I mean this is for how little of detail we put in here, pretty good, right? Yeah, yeah. Cool. Awesome man. Hey, thank thanks for doing that. That was yeah. Honestly, that was probably the easiest prompt that I have ever imagined. I thought that was I thought we'd like come up with some craziness, but that actually wasn't so bad. So Well well next next time it'll be my turn to give you a prompt. It's gonna get weird. I'm gonna have to like find something I never used before. Exactly. Just see what happens and what magic we can come up with, right? So There you go. There you go. Awesome. Okay, well, that's great, man. Well Let's let's let's cut let's bring this to a close then. So today's this has been a great episode. I thought we'd we ha we covered a lot of interesting stuff today. Yeah. I I guess I'm just gonna ask you w what are your your top three takeaways for today and you know, whether stuff we talked about today or some stuff that's been on your mind. the biggest one that it i going back to the very beginning of this discussion, we were chatting a little bit around, you know, the changing of the guard of like what people are gonna be doing in this world. And I think the one thing we have to be careful about right now is getting too busy because AI is actually making everybody busy right now. And it's not the fact that there's a lot of people asking for it. It's the fact that we get into the weeds very quickly now due to the conversation not to be guarded. So that is one thing that I I would caution people and I do it myself. I'm just telling you guys right now, I get into the weeds and I go, boy, pull back out. Hold on. Macro not micro. the other two really are just wrapped around I think we have to pay attention to the hardware. I mean there's there's stuff coming that is going to change the way we interact with AI and we can't ignore it. We can't just say, hey, I'm going to use my chocolate bar phone for the rest of my life. Like, you know, I'm even reconsidering upgrading right now just because I know there's more coming and I want to be mobile. I don't want to be stuck on a computer all the time. and then I think that the last thing that you you did you did hit on was there is a lot of fear out there still, and I want people to be reassured. Yes. There there's a lot of risk with data and whatnot, but it's not any more than, you know, risk that is on the internet, especially around like, you know, exposing your identity or whatever. It's the same type. We're just seeing it happen a lot faster. And you just have to be aware of that and just be careful. Yeah. Cool. that's good shares there. on my side, yeah, it's number one, hugging face, that's again, I've just known it through the news. So Right. Just seeing that little quick demo, I'll gonna go play with that afterwards. I thought that's pretty cool. I'm impressed how quickly it it produces because even I've done that in Claude before and I haven't seen it produce something as quickly as that. Exactly. or lovable in all those two, so I haven't seen it as quickly. So cool. mind you it's probably only JavaScript and there's no integration. So I anyway, I won't get technical, but yeah. the other the other thing, other two things I think number number two is just AI agents, you know, even though I ta that was my story today, it's something that gets me really excited. about like you just said being a disconnected from everything, like being able to actually pull my phone out and give it some instructions and get to my destination where I'm going in my truck and get out the truck and take a look. yeah. Yeah, and you should change this, right? So I feel like even though that cool stuff from Facebook came out, I think on the hardware side, I I mean I'm excited about iPhone Duo. Yeah. I'm gonna try it. I don't know if I'm gonna keep it but I'm gonna try it. but I like the foldable idea. I think that's pretty slick. Then number three I would say is Yeah, just AI Slop is on my mind. those that follow me on social media I complain about it a lot. Even though I've used a lot of it, I've done a lot of it, I've done blog posts. I'm sorry, I really am sorry. I I don't like AI Slop. Like I I use it for brainstorming and doing things in actions, but I feel like the creative process still needs what's up here. And I just I cringe when I see articles now. People post on LinkedIn. Like everyone thinks they're an expert and blogger, but there's those sentences, Mike. Like you see those sentences that You know stick out like a sore thumb, right? Yep, you know. You know what it is. Yeah. So yeah. I know, I'm with you there. I'm with you there. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, listeners, thanks for tuning in. Mike, thanks again for hanging out. And we're gonna do this again next week live from San Fran. I'll look forward to seeing you in person. Yeah, same here. Get some good c we'll get some good content for you guys. It'll be interesting. There'll be a lot of exposure to some stuff that we don't even know about and that's the best thing. We've got to figure out a segment for next week too, so I'm sure we can get creative on that too. Yeah. It'll be it'll be it'll be prompt roulette, but it'll be in person. Right. You know, maybe it'll be booth roulette. We'll just go to every booth and be like, Okay. I like that. We're gonna we're gonna try building something on your platform. So We'll we'll figure something out. Vacation tracker. no, don't do that. No, no, no. So Yeah. All right, listeners, thanks again and we will see you again next time. Take care. Thanks again.