Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 176 – Throwing the Standard
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome, everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad, Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:58 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G, Dr Rad 1:07 and I am Dr. Rad, Dr G 1:09 and we are somewhere in the Middle Republic. Oh yes, Dr Rad 1:13 it's getting very iffy around the dates. The circas are jumping off the page, Dr G 1:18 and because the dating is all over the shop, and the chronology is not going so well. Our sources are also very out of sync, I think, and I think might become apparent as we get into this episode. But nominally, we're in the year 386 BECE. Dr Rad 1:37 We are Doctor G, but lest we forget the monumental year that was 387. For a brief recap, in case people have somehow forgotten the crazy, stupendous events that took place in that year. Dr G 1:50 Well, let us not forget, because I also have things to say about that year now that I've done more research. Oh, okay, Dr Rad 1:56 okay. Well, look, for me, I think we were very much still in the rebuilding era, post whatever happened between the Gauls and Rome, bit of a mystery. But I think we can safely say it wasn't a pleasant encounter. It might have got aggressive. It might have got violent. Dr G 2:14 Yes, yes. And Rome's ability to recover from things like this is this is the first time they've gone through something like this, it's never been this bad. Dr Rad 2:23 It has never been this bad. I think that that is definitely something we can agree upon. So, my account is definitely still showing the Romans dealing with that in terms of not just rebuilding, but actually just mentally processing what has happened and trying to move on with their lives, Dr G 2:41 and apparently this involves the dedication of a temple, amongst other things, Dr Rad 2:48 naturally. Dr G 2:48 And I didn't have much to say about that temple, and so I think the bulk of the things I'll have to say in this episode are going to be retrojection back to that moment. Dr Rad 2:58 Oh, okay. No, please tell me what have you discovered? Dr G 3:01 Ah, so the temple to Mars. Yes, yes, yes. I'm glad you've asked. So when you mentioned it in the previous episode, I was like, well, I knew I knew we had two men for the sacred things at play, but I had no idea what they were really doing. And as it turns out, they're doing something very important. And I do have some things to say about this now that I've done some more investigation because my sources just didn't mention this temple at all, and this temple is situated outside the pomerium, as far as we are aware. Dr Rad 3:34 Yeah, Dr G 3:34 and so you head out of the Porta Capena, and in between the first milestone and the second milestone, there's supposed to be this temple to Mars Gradivus, a particular version of Mars, distinctly associated with war, as opposed to the other kinds of things that Mars can be associated with: Dr Rad 3:55 chocolate, nougat, caramel, etc. Dr G 3:57 Exactly, and because Mars in, I think by the time we get to the imperial period, is definitely just a war god. Okay, we tend to overlook the fact that from an italic, archaic perspective, Mars has a lot more going on in terms of his divine associations. This is true. He's got connections to the harvest. He's got connections to looking after children. There's a whole range of different things that go with the god Mars that then get separated out as we get further into Roman history. And so this temple really marks a defining moment of saying this is the Mars for war. Dr Rad 4:38 Okay, Dr G 4:39 and it's really important that it's outside the pomerium because if Mars is about war in this case, dare not have any weapons inside the pomerium. So everything needs to be outside. This also means that you can have the troops gather there as a final blessing before they go out in on camp. You can meet there and head out on the Appian Way once that exists, which it might not to a very large extent at this point in time. But we do have some interesting details that come out about this temple. So, from an archeological perspective, I came across a paper published in 2016 by Dubbini talking about the records that are held by the Italian Ministry that looks after archeology, and there was an excavation done on the Appian Way, Dr Rad 5:34 yeah, Dr G 5:34 in the right kind of location by the Soprintendenza, this Ministry for Archeology and the Arts and things like that. Dr Rad 5:44 Yeah, Dr G 5:44 because they had to create a new sewer system. Rome was expanding. It was the 1970s. They're like, we need to put in more sewerage works, and they dug up this whole section next to the IPM Way and came across, surprise, surprise, ancient ruins, and they didn't do a formal archeological excavation at the time, but they did draw pictures of what they found along the way Dr Rad 6:08 before destroying it. Is that the subtext of this? Dr G 6:11 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr Rad 6:12 Oh wow. Dr G 6:15 Well, as it turns out, the the local people at the time were like, "You need to get moving with this sewage system, well, sure, yeah, just needs to be finished. Dr Rad 6:23 I do understand the practicalities, but wow, ouch! Dr G 6:28 Yes, so there are diagrams and no particular write-up, and the diagrams are suggestive that we're looking at a temple from the right kind of period, about the fourth century BCE, because it is using the kind of stone that comes from the Palatine. Right. Okay. And the tooth stone from the Palatine was the preferred stone for building early on in the early and middle republic, and it becomes less preferable over time because it's not a great stone to build with. But it was locally available, so it was close. Dr Rad 7:09 I was going to say it was close. Yeah, it was there. Dr G 7:12 So in the beginning, Rome used what was available. Dr G 7:16 The tufa of the Palatine was there. They're like, we can use that. That's fine. And later on, they expanded and realized they were better stone elsewhere, and they started to bring that stone to Rome to do the things. Dr Rad 7:27 And as Rome becomes more crowded, I mean, you're going to be lugging that stuff through the streets. Dr G 7:30 Well, exactly, exactly. And you can't just cut down mountains all the time, or can you? And so we've got this temple, or at least the remains of this temple that seems to have been documented from this sewerage excavation work in the 1970 s, which could be the temple to Mars. We can't know for sure. It's almost impossible to go back and check things like that. And the thing that distinguishes this particular building out is that it has two distinct rooms, which, from a perspective of archeology for this period of time, means that there's potential for two gods to be worshiped, a room for each. So we can't be entirely sure, but there is some archeological record to suggest that it is at least feasible, there was a temple from the right time period in around about the right location between the first and the second milestone on the Appian Way. So that's interesting. So there seems to be archeological evidence to substantiate this idea. Dr Rad 8:39 So wait, wait, wait, wait. What I'm hearing is that, in effect, this archeological evidence is backing up Livy's highly accurate account of events. Correct? Dr G 8:57 Look, I'm not going to say no to that. Yes. Yes, score Dr Rad 9:03 one for the Livy team. Dr G 9:04 Could Livy be right? Yes, yes, he could. So, these are the things that I thought were quite interesting. Is that we do have evidence that Mars is developing a God of War in this period. Yeah, we do have this idea that there is potential for a temple along the Appian Way in this time period as well. It's built from the right kind of stone, even if we can't get back into the area to look at the details in depth. Because I don't know if anybody wants to dig up a sewerage works, but fair enough. So that was that was exciting to find, I think, because in terms of the way that this temple matches up to the other temples that we know about from this time period, there are a couple of temples on the capital that use the same stone and date from the same period. Dr Rad 9:59 Okay. And this would seem to make sense, given that Rome has just been through some sort of military disaster, and also that we have been noticing for a little while, maybe like 10-20, years, roughly, that Rome does seem to be getting more militaristic. It's definitely entering an expansionist kind of area, so that all would seem to, I think, gel very nicely with the idea of Mars as a god of war, and maybe not looking so much at some of the other aspects of him. It makes sense. Dr G 10:39 Yeah, it does. And these are sorts of things that are backed up by our literary sources as well. So, for instance, we have Vitruvius, who, talking about the architecture of where you would place temples to certain gods, indicates that it is appropriate to place Mars outside of the city boundaries, precisely because of that warlike association, and you don't want to draw in the risk of war into the interior of the city itself. Dr Rad 11:07 Because God knows, Rome is so peaceful. I mean, do they ever fight? It's unhealthy, Doctor G. Dr G 11:14 Only outside. No fighting inside, guys. So you can have plenty of temples inside as long as it's not about war, but if it's going to be about war, it's got to be outside, you know, just to keep things safe. Dr Rad 11:27 Sensible. We'll see how that whole feng shui works out for them, shall we? Dr G 11:33 We'll see. We'll see. All Dr Rad 11:34 right, Doctor G. Well, I think that means that we're probably ready to get into 386 BCE. It's 386 BCE, maybe, kind of, circa, Dr G 12:04 possibly. Dr Rad 12:05 Can you tell me, Doctor G, who are our military tribunes with consular power for this year? Dr G 12:11 Well, we've got a list. Let's see what it's like. We have Marcus Furius Camillus. He's baaack. The Dr Rad 12:20 crowd goes wild. Dr G 12:25 He is followed by Servius Cornelius Maluginensis. He is joined by in third place Quintus Servilius Fidenas. We've seen him before. Dr Rad 12:37 Definitely. Dr G 12:38 We've also got Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus. Dr Rad 12:42 Ooh. Dr G 12:42 And. since I was like, where are we up to in this family of the Cincinnati? I went and did some delving, did some pos proofography. That also rolls off the tongue. Dr Rad 12:56 That jet lag's really hitting you. Dr G 12:59 Pospo? Nope, I can't do it. Dr Rad 13:02 Prosgraphical. Dr G 13:03 Thank you. I am smart, but I have jet lag, dear listeners. Yeah. Looking into family connections, essentially, and I was like, we've got our OG Cincinnati, the shirtless farmer guy. Dr Rad 13:17 Yeah, very. This guy is Dr G 13:19 a grandson, so we're a couple of generations down now. Dr Rad 13:22 Yep, Dr G 13:23 I found him. I'm Dr Rad 13:24 gonna go out in a limb. He's not as good. Dr G 13:27 Well, I haven't heard any stories where he's got his shirt off yet. So Dr Rad 13:30 I know, right? Dr G 13:31 Times are troubling. There's Dr Rad 13:34 ways to make yourself famous, and they are as old as time. Exactly. Dr G 13:40 And he is joined by Lucius Horatius Pulvillus. Dr Rad 13:45 Unusual, Dr G 13:46 unusual, yes. And I also looked up this guy because I was sure you did. Pulvillus, little cushion. These are the looking for a soft spot to land. Easy guy. Dr Rad 13:59 My my. Dr G 14:01 So the the pulvillus is like the little cushion that sits on top of an altar stand, essentially. So oh, Dr Rad 14:08 okay. It it Dr G 14:10 has some significance, but it also comes from the hirati, very famous family. Dr Rad 14:15 Yes, yes. Dr G 14:16 And just to remind ourselves of how famous they are, there is the Horatii triplets. Dr Rad 14:23 Naturally, yeah. Dr G 14:24 First of all, who get into a battle with the Curiatii triplets, and that is a royal legend under Tullus Hostilius. Dr Rad 14:33 Yep, and they all end up dead except for one. Dr G 14:35 Yeah, look, and which one is it? Because it's one of the Horatii, and then we have Rome's first consul. One of them was Marcus Horatius Pulvillus, so little cushion again, back. So this is a family with some antiquity. Then we have Horatius Cocles, the guy who. Defends the bridge against Lars Porsena back in around about 508. Dr Rad 15:06 He was an Etruscan dude. Yeah, and Dr G 15:08 then we also have Gaius Horatius Pulvillus, the consul of 477 slash 457, and he Dr Rad 15:20 wait wait 77 slash 57. Dr G 15:24 Well, not yeah, like in both years. Not oh, Dr Rad 15:27 I thought that in either role, and I was like, that seems like a bit of a gap. Dr G 15:31 Not 477 dash 457. He doesn't hold it for 20 years. Gotcha. He holds it on two separate occasions. I Dr Rad 15:39 see. I see. Dr G 15:40 But he also is famous for his military exploits against the Volscians, and so this is a family that has some reputation behind it. So even though we haven't seen a guy from this family for a little while, and we're like, little cushion, what do you what do you mean? He he does have a noble legacy for which to build his soft foundation upon. Dr Rad 16:05 I thought it was a crack about his weight, to be honest. Dr G 16:08 Well, maybe maybe the maybe the family is soft and cuddly. Who knows? Our final military tribune for this year is Publius Valerius Potitus Publicola. Dr Rad 16:18 Oh my God, this is a very elite group of military tribunes with consular power. Another one that goes all the way back. Dr G 16:25 Yep. So big names, big year. I don't know what happens. Dr Rad 16:33 Look, I'm telling you right now, warning everybody. I think this is going to be a multiparter. It's we're entering a very big time for Rome. Dr G 16:42 Okay, I'm going to preface this by saying that I have some massive things that are coming up that spread over the next couple of years, and I wonder if they're starting to come up, maybe in your account now. Speaker 2 16:54 Possibly, possibly. The chronology is a mess. Dr G 17:00 I'm intrigued when you say there's a lot to be said for this year. I'm like, but is there? I've certainly got a lot of things to say for next year and maybe the year after that. Dr Rad 17:12 Look, I just think it's all this this whole middle 380 s period. I think is an interesting one, and it's not just because of what Livy tells me it's also because of some of the secondary scholarship I've been looking into. I'm not going to lie, so it's not all Livy's fault, but I am predicting a multi-party here. Dr G 17:30 All right, I'm interested to see where this is going, so I see if I have anything to chip in whatsoever. Dr Rad 17:36 Look, I just like looking intelligent, like I know what the future holds by saying this in advance, so that's why I'm saying it. All right, so let's set the scene a little bit, Dr. G. So one thing we didn't flag in our recap was that we did talk a little bit about that marshy area, you know, the Pontine Marshes, which seems to be falling increasingly under Roman control in this time period. That was one of our big things that we talked about last time. How it would be absolutely hideous to live there because it hasn't been drained yet, and yet people are fighting about control of that area because you know land is land, I guess. So the tribunes of the plebs are not going to let the issue of who's going to control this territory, go. So we have a tribute of the plebs, Lucius Sicinius, bringing Dr G 18:26 it up again. Okay. Dr Rad 18:31 We don't know much about this particular guy who is a tributary of the plebs, but as I think we flagged last time when we were talking about him as being one of the magistrates for he was listed, I think, in one of the one of the magistrates for the previous year. The family of the Sicinii are very much associated with plebeian leadership and activism and whatever else you want to apply to this kind of role that they tend to play. So we've got this guy. I think I smell trouble. Dr G 19:02 Oh-O Dr Rad 19:04 Yes. So there is a meeting that is therefore organized by the Tribune of the Plebs, and more people are starting shop now. Before the seems like the plebeians were a bit, you know, exhausted from all of the rebuilding, all the trouble that the girls had left behind, and they weren't as committed to talking about land distribution and those sorts of issues, because they needed to find somewhere to live and survive, whilst Rome was still a shattered ruin of its former self. Dr G 19:34 Fair enough. The Dr Rad 19:35 people are now much more predisposed to get feisty with the patricians over the issue of land. Now, this is where I'm going to start flagging some of the secondary scholarship. You and I have had to deal with a lot of issues in the last 100 years or so, which we've often wondered: Is it real? Did it really happen? Or is this just some? Thing that seems a little bit like something that happened in the late Republic, and so our sources, which are written so much later, are kind of applying the knowledge that they have about issues that Rome was experiencing back into this time period to help it all make sense and you know flesh it out a little bit. However, as you have always reminded me, Dr. G, it has to be based on something. Like there must have been something in whatever records they were using or sources they were using that reminded them of the issues that they were familiar with in the first place. You would assume they're not writing fiction here, technically. Dr Rad 20:38 One of the things that we're probably going to be talking about a little bit as we explore this narrative is how much we can say that this is something that is really going on, and I did come across this really interesting article, which kind of tied into what we've been talking about for a little while now with the early republic, which is that our sources make it seem like it was a relatively easy transition from the regal period into the republic. It seems like a lot of the institutions that we're familiar with were, you know, set up fairly soon. You know, a lot of the positions and that sort of thing. Dr G 21:20 Ah, yes. Like the question of like the consulship. Dr Rad 21:23 Exactly. Exactly. Does the Dr G 21:25 consulship really exist yet? Dr Rad 21:27 Yeah. And there's also been yeah. There's also been so many things that have come up, and we're like, well, are you actually doing that? Like military pay, for example, is that actually a thing? How much can we really trust our accounts and what's going on here? And we've also talked a lot about the idea that perhaps Rome, particularly in the fifth century, is actually a lot more feudal than our sources would perhaps like us to believe. It's not that they don't have magistrates. It's not that this is completely made up, but the state might have been a bit more loosely organized than our sources, you know, indicate basically, and there may have been more a situation where people were clients or associated with some of these really powerful families and strong men who existed around the place, and therefore the warfare itself was also maybe a little bit more loosely organized in the way that it functioned, we've talked about these sorts of things before. This also, though, may feed into these issues around land distribution and exactly how that worked. In the sense of, you would presume that these local families and strongmen probably also have some sort of relationship to the control of the land that Rome has power over at this point in time, and therefore the land issues, whilst they seem sometimes to be influenced by what happened in the late Republic, particularly post the Gracchi brothers, it may be something that was actually happening, particularly in this time period, because Rome is starting to expand a little more, and it does seem that we are seeing more of a transition as we head into the fourth century BCE, into maybe a different organization of the Roman state. So all of this stuff that we sort of talked about in the fifth century might be starting to morph a little bit as we get into the fourth century, and therefore I'm just flagging that now as something that we might talk about with the whole land issue. So my whole point being, is it fictional? Probably not entirely, but the reality of the situation is obviously very difficult to figure out. Dr G 23:42 Yeah, it's a tricky time, and I think we've got this landmark event of whatever is happening with the Gaulish incursion into Rome to really spark ideas around. Well, where are the boundary stones? Like, where is the common property versus the private property. Yeah, and if we have to rebuild this place, what does that really look like now? Yeah, and having that extend out further to thinking about family control, and particularly things taking this back to Mars a little bit as well. One of the scholars that I was looking at Serrati, who was writing a paper in 2019, talking about the language that is used, and the term Sodales, which is used to refer to the priesthood of Mars, is also a term used for a band of fighters that fights under a warlord, so there is a a connection to be made from a Latin perspective as well between what's going on from this sort of like warlord feudal rampaging families type of thing to being like how do we make this. Something that sits within the realms of the state in a sacred and appropriate way, and be like, what if we make some of these guys priests? What if we had a god of war? Everybody, Dr Rad 25:16 I like the way you're thinking, expansionist Cap on, Dr G 25:21 yeah. Those noble families, noble, may be trying to find ways to give credibility to the things that they have done and the things that they'd like to keep doing. Speaker 3 25:32 Yeah, Dr G 25:33 under a more under a system which is calling for larger formalization of like what is Roman, how does it work? Dr Rad 25:40 Yes, and that's I think what a lot of the articles I've been looking at are talking about. As we get start getting into the fourth century BCE, we do start to see a bit more formalization, perhaps, of the state, a bit more centralization happening as we are transitioning a little bit out of this kind of warlordish period. And as I say, it's not that Rome as a concept or a state didn't exist in the four hundreds, but it's more that it just might not have been quite as cohesive. Dr G 26:11 Yeah, and I think there is a sense in which there feels like there is a structure to what is going on in the fifth century because we get the names year on year. Yes, and the extent to which that might be an imposition on what is a far more chaotic period of Rome's history is open to conjecture, really. But it does seem like we're getting a slightly more solidified version of Rome as we move further into the fourth century. Dr Rad 26:45 Yeah, and if you think about things like the 12 Tables, which obviously are supposedly a product of the mid fifth century BCE, we definitely get a lot of talk about patron-client relationship. We obviously get a lot of concern about agriculture and property boundaries and that sort of thing, which all makes sense for the kind of society that they would have had, and that gels though with the idea that patron-client relationships obviously might have been particularly important because you had a relationship perhaps with a local family who were very powerful and wealthy in your area, and that might have had something to do with the land that you had and where you lived, and if you went to war and in what capacity. So, but we're starting to see that shift a little bit as Rome is at war more and more often, and does seem to be interested in really truly expanding and not just kind of raiding and terrorizing its neighbors, and having that done back to them. Let's not forget that Dr G 27:49 the Rome I know and love is over. I know, Dr Rad 27:52 I know. So that's what the people are up to. The Senate, on the other hand, are toying with the idea of going to war with their former allies, the Latins and the Hernici, and I have to have a little corrections corner here. And this is so alarming. I can't believe I have been doing this for God knows how long. Honestly, I have somehow been mispronouncing these allies for so long. I just inserted an eye, and so I've been saying the Hernicians this whole time. I just inserted an eye. I just saw it, and it just kept being something that I saw, and I visualized, and I suddenly realized everything I've been reading has actually said the Hernicans, not the Hernicians. And so I'm sorry, it's ruined every single episode because I don't know how many times we've talked about these people, but it's not meant to be the Hernicians. Dr G 28:55 I mean, I don't don't blame yourself too much because I think when it's written in an anglicized version, it gets turned into Hernicians. So it really does depend on whether you're looking at the Latin versus the Anglicization. Dr Rad 29:09 Look, very possibly. I'm hoping that because I was like, oh my god, have I just been inserting an I this whole time, and I never realized that this is not how it's supposed to be? Dr G 29:19 I mean. Dr Rad 29:23 it's crazy. Dr G 29:24 I mean, this doesn't seem like a good time for Rome to decide that maybe they don't need their allies anymore. I'm just gonna put that out there. Dr Rad 29:31 Well, no, but remember, there's been there's been some issues. Remember, there have been some issues. It's been tense between their former allies and Rome. We don't really know exactly the truth of the matter. The Roman accounts seem to be indicating treacherous behavior on their part. It may have been something to do with them renegotiating their relationship, but the Romans obviously are writing this very much like the. Guys, they got no honor. However, they decided that they were going to put this off because at this point in time, war with Etruria was seeming like far more of a problem. Dr G 30:12 Ooh, ah, the old war with Etruria. All right, so I mean, in terms of like complexities, these are the Etruscans. They're the Etrurians. They're the Tyrrhenians. They have so many different names. They do these people to the north of Rome, who are different people, and I do have some details on this. There is an inscription of all things, and I even have a picture of the inscription, which is kind of amazing. An illustration, I should say. Dr Rad 30:39 Yeah, Dr G 30:39 and it relates to Camillus, so I don't want to say too much. Dr Rad 30:44 I'm about to talk about Camillus. Do you want me to tell you? Yes, Dr G 30:46 please, because I have some things to say about this inscription, and I'm interested to see what Livy might be suggesting if Camillus is involved. Dr Rad 30:56 Well, essentially, the Latins and the Hernici, Hernicii, whatever you want to call them. I don't know what to call them anymore. I've completely confused. The people of H. They're in one direction. They're kind of in between the Aequians and the Volscians. Etruria, different direction. Even and as you say, it's not just like one people that they're fighting. But to the north is mostly where we're heading here. The government is basically now falling under Camillus. He is one of the military tribunes with consular power. There are a lot of other super elite men from very prestigious families serving alongside him. But let's be real, Doctor G. The five of them together mean nothing in comparison to one of Camillus. Such is his prestige at this point in time. Dr G 31:49 He is very famous. It's true. Dr Rad 31:52 So they're naturally just going to, you know, fall into line unto him. And so Livy's Camillus show continues. So the Romans were not as worried about the war with the Etruscans. However, when some-and this is-I'm quoting my translation here-some fugitives. What exactly does that mean from the Pomptine area arrive to tell the Romans that actually the Antiates are kicking off now. This means people from Antium, which is a coastal town. It has bounced around a lot in terms of who controls it. It's obviously in an enviable location, given the interest in this particular place. It was Latin. It then fell under Volscian control and does seem to become a very important Volscian location. The Romans have recently defeated it in around 408, so they've had some success against this place. So once again, we're shifting gears a little bit in terms of where our attention should be, the Latins had sent some soldiers to assist in this war that was kicking off. But officially, their government policy was: we're not a part of it. We have not come out in the open and said that we're going to do anything. Therefore, Rome cannot be mad. We're just saying that if some young men of around military age want to volunteer and help out in this conflict that seems to be arising, we're just not going to prevent them. You know, it's a it's a free world, right? Dr G 33:38 Fair enough. Yeah, get in there, guys. Dr Rad 33:40 Yeah, the Romans no longer were going to just sit back and ignore these sorts of warnings when they arose. Doctor G, the Senate are eternally grateful at this moment, and they thank the gods that Camillus is there to help them in their time of need. Otherwise, they would have just made him dictator again because, c'mooon. Dr G 34:02 Oh boy, not Dr Rad 34:04 again! So it's purely because he happened to be elected one of the military tribunes that we don't have yet another Camillus dictatorship at this point in time. Now, as I say, the rest of the military tribunes openly say that look, when it comes to military matters, Camillus, you are the guy. You call all the shots. It is not an insult to us and our reputation. We acknowledge your greatness, and we are not going to try and steal the spotlight from you. You deserve it. And the Senate say, "This is what we want to see, guys. Dr G 34:42 We want one man rule with all of the illusion of no man rule. That's what we want. We want everybody to be falling into line with one guy, but we also want to be able to say we're not ruled by one guy. Dr Rad 34:58 Yeah. So the Senate. Incredibly impressed by this kind of behavior, and they're obviously holding these military tribunes up as this is the example we want everyone to follow. No conflict, no fighting for glory. Thank you very much. And Camillus himself is also deeply, deeply moved and touched by their profession, and he thanks them as well. Camillus says that he feels very responsible for the Roman people and the Roman state at this point in time. I mean, he had to leave them just so many times. It's basically his place now. They may as well rename it, call it after him. I'm just kidding. He didn't say that. I'm suggesting Dr G 35:46 an insertion from Doctor Rad sounds just like the source material, though. So exactly, exactly. Dr Rad 35:52 And the Senate are definitely feeling this way about Camillus as well. However, he feels it even more heavily than usual in 386, and that's because the other military tribunes have just openly said, "Hey, this is your show, pal. You tell us what to do, and we'll do it. But we are looking to you for instruction. So it's just really hitting him-the reality of his leadership. It's a blessing, but also, what a burden, Doctor G. Dr G 36:23 it's hard to be at the top. Dr Rad 36:25 Exactly. So Camillus says, you know, I just, I only hope I can live up to my previous great deeds, my amazing reputation. I need to make sure that everything stays right this way, and so we're off war with Antium, Doctor G. Camillus, however, sees this as not a major problem. He doesn't see Antium as a huge threat at this point in time, but he understands the Romans are feeling a little bit on edge. After all, Gauls, the trauma, the flashbacks, and the Romans had, let's face it, always made their neighbors super jealous because it's Rome who doesn't want to be Rome. I mean, everybody wants to be like them. It's no wonder they constantly have so many problems. So right now, he sees the strategy is being this: we're going to need a few different armies and a few different generals to command them. So Camillus says, Publius Valerius, I need you to help me, and Quintus Servilius, I need you to set up your army camp near Rome and just keep a lookout for the Etruscans. Make sure they don't try anything while we're dealing with this other problem, and also our former allies, the Latins and the Hernicans. We need to keep a lookout for them too. They're clearly up to something. Dr G 37:54 Those guys, our supposed friends. Exactly. Dr Rad 37:57 Yeah. Nobody's trusting them at this point in time. Camillus feels very confident that Servilius is an incredibly capable person and would be able to distinguish his ancestors. After all, he has had lengthy service to the state at this point in time. I mean, it's his sixth time as military tribune, Doctor G. It's pretty impressive. Dr G 38:18 Yeah. Dr Rad 38:19 Now there's going to be a third army under Lucius Quinctius. This is the Cincinnatus dude, and this is going to be made up of those who are too old or incapable of serving in the regular army, and they are going to stay in Rome itself and defend the city and the walls. Dr G 38:41 Okay, good plan. Dr Rad 38:44 He's covering all his bases here. Yeah, keep Dr G 38:46 the older and the infirm inside the city, but give them sticks just in case anybody approaches. Dr Rad 38:51 That's right. That's right. Lucius Horatius, lest we forget him, he is going to be in charge of helping to organize the supplies. He is the guy you go to when you need food, corn specifically at this point in time, some sort of grain, missiles, arms and legs, anything you need. This is the guy you go to, and everyone swears to him. Camillus, we're loving the direction you're going, and we swear we're going to do our best for you, pal. We want to distinguish ourselves for you. Dr G 39:24 Yeah, look. I mean, this doesn't sound like Roman history at this point. This sounds like the Camillus hagiography because the chances of all of these highly elite men, with some of them with, as you've noted, multiple military tribunates under their belt, just falling into step with whatever Camillus suggests seems so unlikely and so very Dr Rad 39:49 un-Roman. I know it's spooky, right? This is the power that Camillus has. He just sprinkles his fairy dust, and everything's fine. Dr G 39:56 I have concerns. Dr Rad 40:00 Meanwhile, back in the reality that I'm living in, Valerius is on board with this. He's very much seeing it as, even though it's not an official title that's being bestowed, that Camillus is essentially a dictator, and he is therefore serving as his master of the horse, given that he's been chosen the prestigious role of assistant. Dr G 40:22 Guys, I know nobody said it, but I am so master of the horse right now. Dr Rad 40:27 So people are feeling very confident now. They're feeling good about Rome's chances. They've got all these guys in charge, and the Senate are saying, "Guys, I mean, there's really no need for a dictator ever again if people like this serve as military tribunes. I mean, look at them working together, not caring about rank and glory. They're just putting the well-being of Rome first, not stroking their own egos. Dr G 41:00 This is the biggest red flag that this is a fictional story. I have to say, Livy Dr Rad 41:05 wrote it, therefore it is true. Livy, what Dr G 41:08 are you trying to do to me? This can't be real. Dr Rad 41:12 They're just highlighting that this is the direction they really want Rome to go. Dr G 41:16 That's fine, but that is not the same as writing a history of how Rome went, Dr Rad 41:22 Camillus and Valerius-they got to get busy, Doctor G. All legal business must be suspended. It's time for a levy. We got to get this show on the road. Come on, people. Yeah, I think the fact that Camillus is doing this-it does show that they are taking this quite seriously. You know, they're suspending business and whatnot. So they are heading out for Satricum first of all. We're talking about Satricum. It is a little bit further in from the coast and Antium, as I understand it. Although you are the geography expert of of this show. I'm not going to pretend I really understand geography or directions. Dr G 42:08 I do have some details for you on this, so I can jump in here. This comes to us courtes of courtesy of Diodorus Siculus, who really gives me nothing for this year, which is pretty on par for him, because he's much more interested in what's going on with Greece than he is with what's going on with Rome. Nevertheless, he gets three quarters of the names of the tribunes right, so good for him. But he's way more invested in Boeotia than he is invested in Rome right now. But he also says that the Romans dispatch 500 colonists who are exempt from taxes. Very important detail to Sardinia, and you might think that doesn't sound relevant at all. But what we do know and what we do think is that Rome is not interested in Sardinia at this point because how could they be? One, it's too far away, and they've got local problems, as you've well established already. Dr Rad 43:06 Absolutely, Dr G 43:07 and they don't really become interested in Sardinia until much later on in the piece. We're talking about the Punic Wars, but we think that this is a misreading of Satricum. Dr Rad 43:18 Ah, okay, Dr G 43:20 And however this story turns out, we end up getting some colonists sent there in the end. And Satricum obviously is in Latium, which is way closer to Rome, which makes more sense. And it is approximately 60 kilometers southeast of Rome. Dr Rad 43:41 Yes, Dr G 43:42 so it's down in the Alban Hills region, and it's just on the edge of the infamous Pontine Marshes. Dr Rad 43:51 Exactly. So it seems to be this is the problem area, right? And it's not obviously it's not too far for the Volscians. It's kind of close to the erstwhile allies, who Rome is now questioning: Are you actually at all? So that's why we're heading to this place, because this is allegedly where the Antietes are starting to gather up young men from the Volscians, traditional enemies of Rome, and also a large number of these volunteers from the Latins and the Hernicans, and it seems like they had lots of men at this point in time because potentially there hasn't been as much warfare on their doorstep as traditionally there has been Dr G 44:42 while Rome has been distracted with the Gauls for a single year. 20,000 new men have grown to full adulthood to the south. Watch out, everybody! That's Dr Rad 44:56 right. That's right. The Roman soldiers. Are extremely concerned about this relationship that they see developing between their former allies and their traditional enemies. They don't like it one bit, Doctor G. They don't like it at all. The Centurions go to Camillus and they say, "Look, the troops are feeling a bit down at this whole situation. We're not going to lie, Camillus. The morale has taken a serious hit. I mean, this is much worse than coming home and finding out that your wife has been cheating on you Dr Rad 45:30 to see our former allies behaving this way. I mean, I just can't take it. How am I supposed to fight a war under these conditions, Dr G 45:41 Dear Marcia. I've lost all my morale. Dr Rad 45:45 I thought Ted was my friend. We have fought side by side so many times, and then I see him on the battlefield with those Volscians, and I tell you, I was sick to my stomach. Dr G 46:03 gonna have to rip his eyeballs out, and I'm gonna cry when I do it. Dr Rad 46:08 I take no pleasure in this anymore. So they're feeling outnumbered, outmanned. Camillus hears all of this and immediately, of course, jumps on his horse and gets ready to rally the troops because this is a Camillus moment. Yeah, yeah. Uh oh. Dr G 46:51 Oh no. Dr Rad 46:53 So Camillus says to the assembled Romans, "What the hell, guys? Do you not know who you are? Do you not know who you are fighting? Your Romans-they're trash. What is going on here? The enemy is always just an opportunity for the Romans to kick ass and win glory. That's what we do, guys. That's what this whole reputation is based on. We're gonna make history on this battlefield because that is what we have always done. And why should today be any different? And he starts to point out that when they have served under him, I mean, let's listen, Doctor G. Why not against the Falerii, against the city of Ae, and lest we forget the Gauls, the Romans have proved themselves time and time again. The combination of Camillus and Roman forces is guaranteed victory. I mean, it's a no-brainer. Lest they forget, it's only just happened that Camillus celebrated a triumph for three victories that he seemingly achieved within almost a day. Dr G 48:20 It was confusing that too. Not gonna lie. I mean, at Dr Rad 48:23 most a week, he managed to triumph over the Volscians, very people they're looking at right now, and the Aequians and the Etrurians. I mean, they're basically fighting the same people right now. Or are they all freaked out in their heads? Do they have a problem because Camillus is somehow not a dictator right now? Is that affecting the way that they look at him, and therefore rattling them? I mean, Camillus is just such a superstar, Doctor G. He doesn't want to have to have the power of dictator when he is commander. He's the same guy, regardless of his title, and they need to understand that whether he's a dictator, whether he's in exile. Camillus is Camillus. Come on, he's just awesome wherever he is. That's his brand, Doctor G. The Romans should also feel the same about themselves, regardless of the situation. They are awesome, and Camillus knows as soon as the battle starts, they will show that, and they will be victorious, and the enemy will just flee. That's how it always goes. Dr G 49:44 This does not seem like the rousing speech he may have hoped. Dr Rad 49:48 I don't know, Doctor G. I mean, are you doubting Camillus? I Dr G 49:52 am just a little bit, and maybe Livy's version of Camillus as well. It just seems a little bit preposterous at this point. Dr Rad 49:59 Temple of Mars. Just gonna say, always accurate. I mean, Dr G 50:03 one example of accuracy does not an accurate historian always make. It's Dr Rad 50:11 all I need. So Camila Sen decides that he's going to lead the charge personally, just to add that extra bit of inspiration. Yes, yes. This is what makes Camillus such a legend, Doctor G. And so he leaps off his horse. He grabs the nearest standard bearer and he races with him towards the enemy forces, crying out, "Forward, soldiers! Ah, the soldiers, of course, are like, "Oh my God, what am I watching just here? My commander is charging into battle. He's got the standards, and I mean, lest we forget, Doctor G. Camillus, he's no spring chicken anymore. For an old dude to be behaving this way, the Romans have no choice but to get all fired up and to follow his lead with the passion that he's called for. Dr G 51:06 Now this is a story which is also related by Frontinus, and I've just got a little very short excerpt which says that he seized the standard bearer by the hand, dragged him forcibly into the hostile ranks of the Volscian. The standard bearer Dr Rad 51:25 is like, "What? What's happening right now? Yeah, yeah. Why are Dr G 51:28 you doing this? I Dr Rad 51:29 signed up to hold the standard. Dr G 51:31 My job is just this whole stick, guys. Why would you endanger the standard like this? You know, the sacred standard is now completely endangered by Camillus. Good job, but this. shames everybody into fighting because obviously, if you lose the standard, it's an absolute disaster. So they need to get involved. So regardless of how they felt, and maybe they the morale was low, but for whatever reason they were hesitating. It seems like we have this story of Camillus going above and beyond, and also taking this huge risk because if he's wandering into the enemy ranks, he's like, "All right, guys, follow me. Stand a bearer beside me. Like, no, why? Dr Rad 52:15 Why? Well, Livy's does actually record that there is an alternative version to this story of Camillus taking the hand of the standard bearer and skipping gaily towards the Volscians, which is that he orders the standard bearer to throw the standards into the enemy forces. Dr G 52:33 Even worse, Dr Rad 52:34 yeah. Which means that obviously the Roman soldiers are like, Dr G 52:38 oh man, now I have to. It's like our ball Dr Rad 52:40 going over the neighbor's fence. Now we have to go and fetch it back. God damn Dr G 52:45 it! I've been outwitted again. This Camillus guy really knows his stuff. Dr Rad 52:50 Strategy, all the way. So the Roman enthusiasm and passion that has been stirred up by Camillus now freaks out the enemy forces, just as Camillus had intended. Doctor G. The Volscians are also naturally quaking in their little boots that Camillus is there at all because he's been on a real winning streak recently, and they know that because they apparently were some of the people that he has just beaten, Dr G 53:24 yeah. Look, I mean, they've probably been collecting the commemorative trading cards that have been going around, and it's like, oh no, Camillus is here. He's the special one. I don't know. I've had him in my debt for a while, but I didn't know he was going to be played at this event. Dr Rad 53:39 Now, Camillus's power on the battlefield can really be seen at this moment when the fighting has actually begun on the left wing of the Roman forces, because the Romans were struggling a bit there, even though obviously there's no doubt that they're going to win this battle. There's a little wobble here, and so Camillus, of course, jumps on his horse, heads over to the left wing, and him just being there immediately turns the battle right around, and he's able to tell them, "Hey guys, the rest of the army, they're winning. What's happening here? Let's win here too. And the Romans say, "No problem, Camillus. We just needed to hear that from you. All good. We're gonna win, don't you worry. So the Romans are now doing very well. However, let's not pretend that it was too easy. Still a challenge here because they are seemingly very outnumbered by the unity, I suppose, between the Latins, the Hernica's, and the Volscians. So it is still challenging, and the Romans start to get a little tired. I'm not going to lie, Dr. G, and they realize, this is going to be a real slog if we're going to continue fighting. Because they just keep coming. They've got endless supplies here. Apparently, how do they do it? Nobody knows. The math doesn't add up. But then all of a sudden, a change in the weather, Doctor G. It becomes incredibly windy and super, super heavy rain. Not ideal conditions for a battle, and it meant that the battle had to finish there because nobody can fight in this kind of weather. Before the Romans could 100% be like, yes, we definitely triumphed on that battlefield. There is no doubt. There's a little doubt. There is a little doubt. So they all have to walk off the battlefield, go get some shut eye. But it's during this time period, whilst the Romans are sleeping, whilst time is passing, that the campaign starts to turn in their favor because those faithless Latins and Hernikans, Dr. G, they decide that they're going to leave the Volscians and just go home. They didn't sign up for this kind of weather. Dr G 56:08 I thought it was going to be easier, to be honest, if they just change sides. Dr Rad 56:14 You promise that Camillus like would not be here. I did not sign up for this, so yeah, an Audi. So the Volscians then have to wake up and realize that their allies, not allies, volunteer forces, whatever you want to call them, have abandoned them, and so they're like, "This is a dangerous situation. I think we better leave our camp and go and retreat behind the walls of Satricum itself. Dr G 56:45 This Dr Rad 56:46 is Camillus's specialty, Doctor. Now he can commence his assault on the city itself. So he is getting ready for a siege situation. However, the Volscians-they don't kind of really try to stop him from assaulting the city per se. Okay. And Camillus is realizing, hmm, I don't think these people are going to fight me tooth and nail right now. This seems like maybe this will be not too difficult a victory here. So Camillus tells his troops that this is not going to be another they kind of situation where it's just endless resistance and a siege that never Dr G 57:40 Years later, yeah, Dr Rad 57:42 exactly, yeah. He's like, I don't think this is going to be too complicated. Therefore, what we're going to do is take this nice and easy. He's basically going to use the men that he has to approach the city from every single direction, and they manage to take it just by using ladders. Dr G 58:03 What? Dr Rad 58:04 And once they're over the walls, the Volscians are like, "Oh damn, ladders! Dr G 58:08 Wow, so clever! And they Dr Rad 58:11 just throw their weapons aside and surrender. Okay, okay. I don't know if I have much to add to that. That sounds almost wholly implausible, but here we are. Congratulations, Camillus. Well done, Rome. What can I say, Doctor G? I tried to tell you that he would be successful many a time, and you refused to believe in his greatness. Dr G 58:39 Yes, I suppose that was a mistake on my part. Dr Rad 58:43 Yeah, it really was. Now, this is actually an interesting moment. The Volscians allegedly just throwing aside their weapons and surrendering in this way. This is obviously meant to be indicating unconditional surrender on their part, and this would be seen as a very shameful position to be in. Like the Romans themselves would not enjoy being in that particular scenario. You'd also obviously want to be really certain that this wasn't just a ploy on their behalf; that they're not making a show of throwing away their weapons only to stab you in the back the minute that you start to let down your guard. So this is this is something that may be referring to a deditio, okay? Like basically accepting this kind of resolution of a conflict. Dr G 59:52 Interesting. It doesn't strike me that thereshould be a reason for that at this point in time. That seems like a quick turnaround from. Fighting with the possibility of victory to be just like I give up. Dr Rad 1:00:05 Well, they're allies. They they left them in the night, Doctor G. Dr G 1:00:08 Well, sure, but it's not like the Volscians aren't interested in fighting Rome all of the time. Any time. Dr Rad 1:00:13 Look, I'm not saying that this is going to be the end of warfare between the Volscians and Rome. It's just in this particular moment, it might be the case that they are officially handing over their weapons. In other situations, they might be asked to hand over leaders. They might be asked to hand over hostages. All sorts of things, just to make sure that they are really surrendering, and it's not just a trick. Dr G 1:00:41 Well, I guess that remains to be seen. Well, I don't think that there is any call for me to bring in my inscriptural evidence at this point. Epigraphy, it can wait because it's got nothing to do with the story you just told me. Okay, well, Dr Rad 1:00:55 I do have a little bit more to the story if you would like to hear what Camillus says next, because after Satricum has been taken, Doctor G, it's now time to start thinking about Antium. Dr G 1:01:05 Nope, that's not what the inscription's about either. Dr Rad 1:01:09 This is what Livy's talking about. Dr G 1:01:12 Livy's on a whole different trajectory to anything that I've got right now. Dr Rad 1:01:16 Antium is to blame for the whole situation that just went down at Satricum, Doctor G, and therefore Camillus now has to deal with that place and the Volscians there. So you see, it's just the Volscian forces at Satricum that he's dealing with there. Now Camillus knows he's going to need a huge amount of artillery and siege equipment to even think about taking on a place like Antium, it apparently has very strong defenses. So Camillus leaves Valerius with the army and goes back to Rome to ask the Senate to commit to taking down Antium once and for all. Because whilst the Romans seem to have obviously had previous victories there. It I think it definitely still seems to be under Volscian control, essentially. Now, as Camillus is talking to the Senate, envoys turn up from places called I think it's Nepete and Sutrium. Dr G 1:02:19 Okay. So this is Dr Rad 1:02:21 modern day Nepi and Sutri. They are slightly to the north of Veii. Dr G 1:02:29 Yes, we are now talking about Etruscans. Wait a minute, my inscription might be relevant. Dr Rad 1:02:35 There you go. Now they are wanting help from Rome to deal with the Etruscans, and they say, "Look, Rome, if you do not come now, it might be too late altogether. Time is Dr G 1:02:50 of the essence. Intriguing. Dr Rad 1:02:53 So it seems that the gods were indicating that they do not want the Romans to take on Antium at this moment, and steal once and for all the jewel in the Volscian crown. Fortune herself is providing Camillus with a distraction, because he's going to have to go and deal with those Etruscans after all, and the Volscians. I'll have to wait for another day, Doctor G. The Dr G 1:03:23 drama. All right. Well, I don't think it's time to bring in my inscription just yet, so I'm just going to leave that aside. I'm going to place that as a a moment of suspense for everybody. That inscription is coming, but this might be a good place to wrap things up. Dr Rad 1:03:42 I was going to say there's a whole lot more detail about what Camillus gets up to in 386, so that's probably a good cliffhanger. What's going to happen to Antium? What's going to happen to the north of Rome? I can only assume it's going to be more victory, Doctor G. Dr G 1:03:58 More Camillus, more of the Dr Rad 1:04:01 time. All right, Dr. G. Well, you know what that means. It's time for the partial pick. All right, Dr. G. Please tell us how does the partial pick work. Dr G 1:04:17 Well, Rome is judged by a number of categories, five precisely. They can earn up to 10 golden eagles in each category, and if they are successfully Roman enough, they'll earn 50 golden eagles. Dr Rad 1:04:32 I haven't got close yet. No. Dr G 1:04:33 Our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 1:04:38 Well, I mean, 10 out of 10. Need I say more? Dr G 1:04:44 I don't. I mean, it is true that they're victorious, but they do have some struggles along the way, including morale and having to throw the whole standard slash and the standard bearer into the enemy to get the thing. A Dr Rad 1:05:01 smaller price to pay for victory, Doctor G. Dr G 1:05:03 It turned out all right in the end, but it could have gone really badly. And they are aided by the fact that their frenemies-I'm just going to still call them Hernicians. I think their their Latin frenemies run away and make it make defeat a potential, whereas it didn't seem like it was on the cards before. So, I'm happy to give them something like a seven or an eight. Dr Rad 1:05:30 Are you seriously going to punish the Romans for the wind and the rain? They would have won, Doctor G. They were so close. Dr G 1:05:36 I am not. I'm going to punish them for one not believing in themselves, and two taking very risky actions with their standards. Dr Rad 1:05:51 Hey, the Romans are people too. Can they help it if they got a little sad when they saw their former allies had hooked up with their enemies, their traditional and long-standing enemies. Dr G 1:06:03 Why are you leaving the party? I have to. My feelings are Dr Rad 1:06:07 hurt. All right. Look, I'll agree to an eight. I'll accept eight. Dr G 1:06:12 Excellent. Let us move on then to diplomacy, for which I think is a big zero. Dr Rad 1:06:19 Well, okay. Hang on a second. Just hold your horses, there, Missy. Dr G 1:06:24 Who do they negotiate with? Nobody. Dr Rad 1:06:26 Well, no, no, no, no. These people have turned up from the north, and Camillus is willing, and seemingly also the Senate are willing to put aside their own immediate interests in taking down the Volscians and Antium to help them against the Etruscans, I feel like that is somewhat diplomatic. Dr G 1:06:53 I will give them one point for that. Dr Rad 1:06:55 Oh come on! Camillus was on a roll. He'd just taken a city, and now he's got to take another one. But he has to stop. Dr G 1:07:04 Those Romans know they can't take Antium. They need a strategic break while they build up their siege engine material. I don't think so. Come on, Dr Rad 1:07:12 two, one for each place. Dr G 1:07:14 One for each place. Dr Rad 1:07:15 Well, yeah, they've you know two two cities, two towns coming and asking for help? Speaker 2 1:07:20 No. Fine. Dr G 1:07:24 I must resist this. No, this is an intestine inflation. Dr Rad 1:07:29 You'll be sorry. The Romans don't get more diplomatic than that. Sure, Dr G 1:07:34 I'll fight some people for you. All right, expansion. Dr Rad 1:07:39 So I don't feel like we can give them points for expansion in this year with the whole Satricum situation because at the moment I feel like it's more a military defeat per se, and there might be more to come on that in future years. But I don't know if I'll give them points for an expansion just yet, Dr G 1:08:03 so no points. Dr Rad 1:08:06 No points for that, I don't think. But there might be points in the future. Yeah, Dr G 1:08:10 listen in to future episodes to find out if Rome eventually takes Satricum for itself. All right. This leads us to the fourth category, which is virtus. Dr Rad 1:08:24 Ooh. Well. Okay. I feel like maybe Camillus and the standard bearer deserve some weirdus points. You know, running into the enemy like that. Crazy kids that they are. Dr G 1:08:34 It's the kind of chaos that Romans in when it goes well would be like, yeah, that that was pretty weird to us, and when it goes badly, they're like, "We have to kill him. Dr Rad 1:08:47 That's how it works, and you know, it's worked out in this particular situation. So I feel like, and you know, he's old. Dr G 1:08:52 How old? I mean, what are we talking? Dr Rad 1:08:55 He's Yoda at this point. Does Dr G 1:08:59 he have gray hair? I don't know. Dr Rad 1:09:02 Livy explicitly points out that one of the things that shames Romans into action is that Camillus is acting in this way, and he's much much older than they are. Dr G 1:09:12 I see. Well, okay. So the silver fox is out there doing what the young ones can't. Dr Rad 1:09:18 Yeah. I mean, technically, I feel like Camillus actually should have been part of those forces that stayed behind in Rome, defending the walls. You know what I'm saying? Dr G 1:09:26 Wow. All right. Yeah. Okay. So, in terms of virtus, maybe a five. Dr Rad 1:09:33 Yeah, I think so. Because I take your point about the risk, but that's kind of what virtus is, isn't it? It's Dr G 1:09:39 well, you can't have glory without the risk, can you? Yeah, Dr Rad 1:09:42 exactly. Dr G 1:09:44 And our final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 1:09:48 Hmm, I'm conflicted on this note. They are going to war. Dr G 1:09:55 Not good. Dr Rad 1:09:56 Not great. However, they're going to war under Camillus. Is it that bad? And there is that hint of the land issues, you know, bubbling away in the background. There, Dr G 1:10:08 they have low morale Dr Rad 1:10:10 for a moment. For a moment, jeez, really halfing on about that. Just Dr G 1:10:18 following Livy's narrative here. Dr Rad 1:10:20 They have low morale for a moment because of the whole former ally situation, backstabbing, treachery, and whatnot. I feel like maybe like a three. Yeah, it's not like the worst. Like they're winning. Dr G 1:10:37 Yeah, yeah, they're winning, but yeah, I'm not sure that they're having the greatest time. So and yes, the tension to do with the land issue that seems to be in the background cannot be overlooked. So three, sure. All Dr Rad 1:10:51 right, that means Dr. G that the Romans have got a total of 17 golden eagles. Not too bad. Dr G 1:10:59 That's pretty good for them, I would say. Dr Rad 1:11:02 Indeed. Well, as you can see, Dr. G, there is so much more to come in the rest of 386, and I dare say you might hear the name Camillus again. Dr G 1:11:13 Oh no! Dr Rad 1:11:23 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious, and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collectivemem.com. Today, we would like to send our gratitude to our newest Patreons, Medea of the Palatine, Captain Ducky, Lee, Ropetric, Saph, and apparently the one and only M. Furius Camillus. If you would also like to enjoy early access to our special episodes and ad-free content, please consider becoming a partial Patreon too. However, if you are also in the midst of some complicated land redistribution, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five-star review. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai