Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / An Autism Mom's Data on 70+ Horse Boy Sessions | Laila Rahmatian | EAW 62

Transcript

An Autism Mom's Data on 70+ Horse Boy Sessions | Laila Rahmatian | EAW 62 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
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equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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I have a mother of an autistic child who has been seeing
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enormous milestones with her kid.
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And as most of you who listen to this show or watch this show know, I'm usually
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talking to practitioners, but it occurred to me that we should really hear from the
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people who are the service users as well as the service providers, and what works
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for them what could be better, Mm-hmm
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what w- could be better known and all of the above.
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So I've got Layla Alia with me, who's she's very nervous
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she says, but she shouldn't be.
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Yeah.
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Because in addition to being an autism mum, she's an extremely â¦ It's
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us who should be nervous, 'cause she's actually an ex-NASA scientist.
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As well as an autism mum, and she's been taking data, which she's gonna share with
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us, on her son's progress, and I think this will be of enormous use to all of
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us, and hopefully this data's- Mm-hmm
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actually gonna go and be part of a peer review study.
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So Layla, thank you so much for coming on the show.
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Can you give us a little background about who you are and
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how you arrived in this space?
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Laila Rahmatian: Well, thank you River, and thank you for having me on the show.
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My name is actually Layla Alia Rahmatian, and but I say Layla Alia because it's
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easier to pronounce, so I do like how you introduced me that way, and thank you.
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I wanted to first of all thank you for having me on the show and
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taking me on as your client and introducing me to this amazing tribe.
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It all started honestly when my first son was born, and it was during COVID.
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And when he was 18 months old, I went to a doct- to my doctor who I really liked.
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I actually went through several doctors to pick before I selected because it
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was during COVID and they were just not listening, and I was trying to
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find a doctor that was really aligning with my my needs and my interests.
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And I have to thank her for that because at our 18-month appointment,
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I-- she mentioned something to me that I was not prepared for 'cause I
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had to fill out this sheet and said something about pointing and eye contact.
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And she basically looked at it and she says, "I think we see a sign of autism."
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And I was like, "What?"
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And I I would say that the-- I was shocked.
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I was a little bit-- I was in denial, I'm not gonna lie, because
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I'm like, I don't even know what an 18-month-old c- milestone kid needs.
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I mean, I was told that I didn't start talking until I was four years old.
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And the interesting thing was she's like, "Well, let's just, let's see how it goes."
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And then fast-forward a couple months I took him to summer's camp, and this
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lady whom I think was so courageous, and I, I, I really do think that b- and I
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did contact her later and thanked her.
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She said Does Donatello respond to his name?
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And I said, "Yeah, he does."
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And that was, like, the first thing that was off of that form that's, that I had
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to fill out about name name and pointing.
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And then she said, "How about you call him a different name
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and I call him Donatello?"
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And so because he was running away, and that was another sign, and
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he wasn't responding to his name, and that's when she approached
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me about a concern of safety.
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She did not say a word about anything, 'cause I know professionally
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she didn't wanna get in trouble.
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She can't diagnose.
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So I basically said, "Hey, George."
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Eh, but first she said, "Donatello," and she, and he wasn't responding.
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And then I said, "Hey, George," and then he responded and came up to me, and that's
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when I knew it was my voice, not his name.
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And so then I went back to the doctor, and I told the doctor I
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would like to get him tested for autism, speech delay, everything.
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'Cause I had been looking up tests, and so she said, "Okay, we'll do it."
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And she was very respectful as well.
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And then we did, in September of 20- 24, this was June of 2024 that I
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noticed that we need to get him tested.
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Fast-forward to September 2024, I have all these things written down, that
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is when we did this online assessment the, of a doctor I was referred to.
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And I told the doctor, "I'm not gonna buy the results because this
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is an online virtual assessment."
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And this lady was not even the doctor.
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And so I said to her before we started, "I wanna do in-person evaluation."
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So we did online, and which was an assistant, and then we went to a
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autism center, and we had this person by the, by the title of a BCBA,
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which I didn't know what that meant at the time, and it was also a video
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recording of him with this BCBA.
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And I-- Looking at Donatello and the other kids at this autism
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center, which I had never been in, I was like, "There's no way.
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My kid's high-functioning.
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There's just no way."
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And so we're just gonna rule it out.
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Like, we l- my husband and I, we just said, "We'll just rule it out."
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And then we told the family like, "Yeah, it- we're j- it's not a big deal, but
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we're just gonna see what happens."
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And then October 3rd came and I was driving and my husband and I,
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we were off to go to a meeting and I got a phone call that honestly
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I, I, I couldn't even believe this was on a phone call while driving.
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The doctor calls me and she's like, "I have the results for you."
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And I said, "Okay, well I'm driving just to let you know."
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She's like, "Okay, well are you free to talk?"
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And I said, "Yes, but I'm, I am driving so sure, go ahead and tell me."
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And at that moment I thought, "He doesn't have it because she knows I'm driving."
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And she said, "Well I just wanna let you know your son has autism spectrum
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disorder and he's at a level two."
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And I said, "What's, how many levels are there?"
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She's like, "There's three."
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And I said, "Which one's the most, what does three and two and one mean?"
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"Well three is the most severe, one's the less severe."
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I was like, "You said two?"
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And I blacked out a little bit and she just said, "Okay this is the protocol.
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What we do from this point on is that we recommend Donatello gets
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enrolled at a autism center and if the therapists recommend 40 hours
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I highly recommend you take it."
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And I paused and she said, "How do you feel about that?"
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And I said to her, "I feel like you're out to get my insurance money."
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Rupert Isaacson: Really,
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Laila Rahmatian: you said that?
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And-- oh, I did.
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Interesting.
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I did.
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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
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Laila Rahmatian: Yeah, I said-- And then she, she was like, "Oh.
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Oh my gosh."
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And I just started bawling.
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I, I was uncontrollably baw-bawling.
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It was the feeling like someone got a bat and hit me in the face, and then
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told me that your child is handicapped.
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Rupert Isaacson: That feeling.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I resonated with that one.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Laila Rahmatian: Especially when you said that, too.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Laila Rahmatian: After.
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Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's a, it's a bat to the face.
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The way that- It's a
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Laila Rahmatian: bat to the face.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
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And I just couldn't believe.
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There was no bedside manners.
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It was emotional.
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I, I called my husband.
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He says, "We need to cancel the meeting."
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I was gonna keep going and say, "No, we're gonna have the meeting."
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He's like, "No, we need to cancel."
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And that day w- it was October 3rd, which ended up being a day I'll never forget.
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Mm.
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And in 2024.
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And so, basically, my husband and I-- My husband had to stop working.
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We're both engineers.
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You know, I, I worked at NASA as a child.
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As a child, I've always wanted to work for NASA, and then I, I thought, I
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thought that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, like be an astronaut.
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Born and raised in Houston.
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But the-- hearing all this stuff, like, "Your child has a problem and
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this is the solution," I was just having a really hard time hearing that
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information in a very unsympathetic way.
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And so we canceled.
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My husband met me at the house.
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I don't even know how I got to the house.
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We hugged, we cried, we called the doctor again.
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Her, her response was, "Are you guys now calm and regulated?"
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And I said, "Sure, but what are you talking about?"
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And she was, again, not very being helpful at all and and
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saying, "Well, I gotta go now.
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Let's make an appointment for talking.
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I, I I wanna wait till you guys are calm and unsettled."
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By that time, we called my hus- my son's school director, who was amazing.
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They-- We were, we were going to this small Christian half-day school,
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and my teachers, my-- the teachers, I told them that we are getting him
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tested, but do you notice any signs of Donatello responding to his name?
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They're like, "No."
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But-- And then the director of the school, who honestly was
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a saint, and an a- an angel.
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Call her whatever you wanna call her.
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I think she was-- she really saved us and calmed us down.
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She said to us a couple weeks prior that, "All I see is that Donatello
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likes to play independently, and he likes to line things up.
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And but mostly he's obsessed with firetrucks."
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So when we called her, I said, "We have some news to tell you."
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I find out that she knew what I meant by that 'cause she told the
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entire staff, "Watch the two kids.
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We're gonna stay longer today.
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Dismiss the kids."
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And so when we arrived, my husband and I just bawled, and she calmed us down.
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She calmed us down and she basically said to us, "Do not
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put him in an autism center.
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There are other options, and I can guarantee I've been doing this
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for 25 years, and I know one girl who was with us, and she canâ¦
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You can barely tell that she has any signs because we did early intervention."
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And she said to me, "I'm gonna tell you right now, a lot of schools
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are not gonna accept services, but I will accept services and I will
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open all my doors for Donatello.
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Anything for Donatello."
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I didn't know any of this, of what the rules and regulations were,
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Rupert, but I knew that I trusted her.
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I didn't trust this doctor.
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And so I got a list of 20 ABA centers from this doctor and also contacted all these
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ABA places, 'cause that's what I was told.
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That's the number one protocol, is ABA.
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And I think within 24 hours, I became my son's advocate.
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I called and made aâ¦
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I started making a blacklist and aâ¦
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Not blacklist.
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I don't know what the otherâ¦
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Like a, a go list.
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And 18 of them, through word of mouth from other ABA centers and people,
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they were like, "No, no comment."
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They they will keep the clients until they get a new client, so
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they're not focusing on the child.
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And the two that I picked were travel ABA.
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And they the one was amazing, and I really like them, and then Iâ¦
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But I did go and visit an autism center the next week because I
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had people tell me, like, "This is a non-franchise ABA place."
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And I went to this other autismâ¦
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So I went and visited an autism center to see, like, what is the big deal?
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'Cause I didn't like the franchise one.
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And I'm learning quickly that there's a franchise.
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I'm learning quickly that what is this industry?
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'Cause I had no clue.
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I know everything about the space industry.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, it is- Yeah, I, yeah.
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I know about the auto- ADHD industry, 'cause I have ADHD and dyslexia.
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I was, you know, before doing what I'm doing now, I was becoming
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a c- I was a coach for ADHD kids as a tutor and a coach.
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And before that I was, you know, doing, having an online business before I left
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corporate America and getting married.
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So I have, I had different hats, but the last industry that I was
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in was the ADHD industry, and I never knew anything about autism.
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I heard of stigmatic stuff.
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I heard ofâ¦
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It was always like this thing of I, I hope my child doesn't have Anything di-
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I, I waited a while to have kids because I was afraid to have kids, and I wasn't,
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I hadn't held a child for 21 years.
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So holding Donatella wasâ¦
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I had to practice on Cookie Monster how to put a diaper on a kid.
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So anyways, so then learning about this industry of the kids and, and
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then I go to this autism center, and there are these three women that
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started this place, so kind, so nice.
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I have notes to go over this.
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And I, within 10 minutes of being in that facility, I broke down crying
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and I said, "I am so sorry, this is not the environment for my kid."
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It looked like an asylum.
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There were neon light- You described it.
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Okay.
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Rupert Isaacson: Because environment is so important in
13:33
Laila Rahmatian: what we do.
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Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: Describe what alarmed you about this environment.
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Laila Rahmatian: It was all white.
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It was a, and a, it was a building that was, that they
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used as a, as a therapy building.
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There was a small little playground that was like t- like a rubber but
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almost c- it was very much eroded, like a small section of a playground.
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And then inside I saw kids that couldn't eat.
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I see kids that couldn't walk.
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I saw a diaper changing section.
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I saw this strip of neon lights.
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And, and there was just very little windows, and each room
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was like all white and it felt like an asylum without a jacket.
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And it was just, it was just no, no color, no, nothing fun, and it
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looked extremely, I wouldn't say run down as the autism center that I was
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getting my video assessment, which I found, thought it was in person.
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But I told the ladies, 'cause what happened was an autistic kid came up to
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me and hugged me, and I hugged him back.
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And he had headphones on, and that was also another thing.
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I wasn't used to seeing a kid with headphones on.
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And I just hugged him, and then I looked at the lady.
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I said, "I'm so sorry, this is not the environment for my son.
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He is high-functioning."
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And they took me to the room, and they said, "It is okay.
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It is okay if this is not your child's environment.
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We just wanna let you know."
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And they gave me advice.
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I call them also another great messenger.
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They
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didn't convince me to stay.
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They didn't convince me.
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They actually gave me advice saying, "If you do go to another autism centerâ¦"
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'Cause we started this autism center because of the franchises that we
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were working for, we were turned away.
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"Never feel like you can't go inside an autism center, because some autism centers
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will not let you enter the building until your appointment time is over.
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You- our place, we allow parents to come in any time."
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And I'm like, "W- it should always be that way.
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W- wh- what?"
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And then and then they also told me, "We also do not penalize you
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if you wanna go on vacation."
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I'm like, "What do you mean you don't penalize me?"
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He's like, "Well, some autism centers do not want you to take more than
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X amount of days off from therapy."
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I said, "Why not?"
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He said, "Because this is a 40-hour week of therapy.
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40 hours a week is actually 40-hour work week."
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I said, "So the 40 hours that I was recommended for my kid wasn't for my
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kid, it was for the person's pocket."
16:00
Ah, I see.
16:01
All right.
16:02
So then thatâ¦
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I, I kept them on my positive list for people that may need
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that environment, because they said, "We do not take the most of
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Rupert Isaacson: your ben- Is there anybody that needs an institutional
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asylum white wall environment?
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Is there any human on the planet that needs that environment?
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Laila Rahmatian: I don't.
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I f- where I am now, no.
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But back then, back then, all I knew was that.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
16:28
Laila Rahmatian: And, and all I knew was that.
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Okay, so that is not okay for me, but I see kids that are there, and
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they even had kids that they had photos of them graduating out of ABA.
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Mm.
16:39
You know, they were doing that.
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But to me, it was still in the back of my mind is this it?
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Is this the best we can do?
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Yeah.
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I'm justâ¦
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I'm honestly disgusted.
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I do like those ladies, and if they're ever listening to this, I
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don't wanna put their business down.
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I think they were j- they were doing what they knew was best,
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but they did it their way.
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Rupert Isaacson: Me too.
16:57
But it, it, it is so strange to me.
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And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, sorry.
17:02
But it is so strange to me that because we all know, everybody knows what an
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ideal and lovely environment consists of.
17:12
Yeah.
17:13
There are, there are some personal preferences.
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Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
17:16
Rupert Isaacson: But if you look at this library behind me, or if
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you look at, a beautiful park or if you look at the kind of place that
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you would spend money to go to-
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Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely
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and
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Rupert Isaacson: spend time in.
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There's a reason why lovely hotels, health spas, retreat centers,
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et cetera, look the way they do.
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And if they didn't look like that, you'd want- you wouldn't book them.
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And if you went to them, you'd say- Yeah â¦ "Sorry, I want my money back.
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I'm notâ¦"
17:43
You know?
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There's a reason why romantic restaurants have soft lighting and muted colors- Yeah
17:48
and there's a reason, to soothe the nervous system, there'sâ¦
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We know it.
17:52
Yeah.
17:53
We know it.
17:55
Of course, we know it.
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And so the fact that one could assume, even with good intentions, that a sterile
18:06
institutional fluorescent strip lit white environment is going to do anythingâ¦
18:13
That's what prisons look like.
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That, that- It felt like one
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is going to do anything other than make a human suffer-
18:20
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm
18:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because we know
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It's astonishing to me.
18:26
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
18:27
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
18:27
But anyway- No â¦ you voted with your feet.
18:29
You went away and said, "Okay."
18:29
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
18:30
I, I, I, I went away and I was like, "N- no.
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A- absolutely no.
18:34
My son's not gonna be in this environment because I don't wanna
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be there in that environment."
18:38
And so that's when I told myself, wherever my kid goes, I would wanna be there too.
18:44
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
18:44
Laila Rahmatian: So it has, it has to be fun for me, yes.
18:47
So, like you were saying, I-
18:48
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause my, for my nervous system, it's probably
18:50
right for their nervous system.
18:51
Laila Rahmatian: Exactly.
18:53
Basically.
18:53
Yeah, yeah.
18:53
Oh, yes.
18:54
No, and so I, so I will say this.
18:57
Interesting point is my son was diagnosed in October.
19:00
Mm-hmm.
19:00
But June of months prior to that, my husband comes up to me and he
19:05
said, "I was, I've been given an opportunity to come to Germany," To
19:09
do a- â¦ to do a, a, yeah, with his job to do a job assignment in Germany.
19:12
And I, we have done we've, we did a expat assignment before having kids in, in Asia,
19:17
in China, and then his company says, the company's asked me to come to Germany.
19:23
So I was like saying, "Say yes.
19:24
Let's go, let's go."
19:25
And then Donatello's diagnosed with autism in October.
19:28
Right.
19:29
And we said, "Let's put this on pause."
19:32
And and we did.
19:34
So I started to form a team.
19:36
So within 24 hours, I became my son's advocate.
19:38
I said no to autism centers.
19:39
I said, "Everything is gonna be done at the school because I love
19:42
the director, I love the school, he's doing great at the school.
19:45
I'm gonna bring the people to the school."
19:47
And so that's when I found travel ABA.
19:50
That's when I found a speech therapist, and a lot of these types of therapies
19:56
were outside of the conventional method.
19:59
Like, I did travel ABA, which means a therapist is with Donatello and
20:03
they're following me, my son to the environment I want him to be in.
20:07
Before knowing anything about what you did, you do, Rupert, I was saying,
20:12
"The environment that my son's thriving in, you come to his environment.
20:15
The speech therapy that I wanted done, it needs to be a type of intensive
20:19
speech therapy, not a once a week for 30 minutes that insurance will allow."
20:24
So I paid out of pocket for speech therapy by people that
20:30
understood life In that environment.
20:33
So my speech therapist was actually a therapy mom, and she was also
20:36
telling me "You just need to be really mindful that theseâ¦
20:39
Some, some therapists don't understand what life is like."
20:43
And so it was just such a nice thing to get.
20:46
Suddenly this door opens that I don't wanna go into, and these messengers are
20:51
telling me advice as I walk through.
20:54
And itâ¦
20:56
So it was October.
20:57
But then I said, "You know what?
20:59
Before I start anythingâ¦"
21:00
Because even the a- the travel ABA company said they met Donatella and they said, "I
21:06
think we're on the fence with this kid.
21:08
I don't know if he does have autism."
21:10
And so they were-- I was impressed by them to not just take him right away.
21:14
They're like, "I really think we need to get a second opinion because he's
21:17
coming up to us, he's speaking to us, she the environment you have him."
21:21
So I got a second opinion, and this doctor wasâ¦
21:24
I was referred to by four therapists.
21:27
Her name is Dr.
21:28
Horn.
21:29
And and, and did not have any affiliation with insurance.
21:32
And that was when I realized that doctor who assessed my son I find out by the ABA
21:41
company, because they knew the doctor that did the assessment on me, the A- travel
21:46
ABA company said, "I know this doctor.
21:48
She works for this ABA center."
21:51
And I said, "Oh, that's the ABA center that she told me to
21:54
go to and do 40 hours a week."
21:56
And she said, "Layla, I'm gonna tell you right now, they're ch- they're making
22:01
about a quarter million dollars per kid.
22:04
Donatello is $4,000 a week for them, plusâ¦"
22:08
And so that's when I learned that my son was gonna be a quarter million
22:12
dollars a year for this autism center, and she was gonna make a commission.
22:16
So then they said, "I recommend Dr.
22:19
Horn because she has no affiliation with any insurance.
22:22
She's her own private practice."
22:24
So fast-forward, I meet this doctor, and I tell the assistant what happened.
22:29
Sheâ¦
22:30
And then basically in November 16th, a month later, I sit down with this
22:36
doctor, and she meets Donatello, and she brings me into a room.
22:40
She meets with Michelangelo.
22:42
I have another son named Michelangelo, who's younger.
22:45
They're 22 months apart.
22:47
And she s- wanted to know what happened, and she sat down me and said, "I'm really
22:51
sorry for you to have found out that your son has autism the way you found out.
22:55
That is the worst way for a parent to ever find out."
22:59
I was told by, by many people that doc- that this doctor has really good bedside
23:03
manners and does not over-diagnose, and sh- she was showing that.
23:07
And she says, "I just wanna let you know, I'm sorry that your son
23:10
f- that the way you found out, but your son does have autism."
23:14
And she showed me how, and she showed me why.
23:18
She said, "Whatever I'm gonna put down, number, level,
23:21
whatever it is, don't look at it.
23:23
It's what Iâ¦
23:24
I'm gonna put down what he needs to get the support he needs, and
23:28
whatever I put down, it's for now because he's not talking."
23:33
And so I was reassured.
23:34
And, but then this w- But interestingly that
23:35
Rupert Isaacson: the other people said, "He's speaking to us."
23:37
And w- then the doctor says he's not talking.
23:41
So what were the- Oh â¦ other people interpreting as speech
23:45
Laila Rahmatian: that he- W- he was singing.
23:47
So let, let's say he was singing, he was babbling, but he
23:50
wasn't talking, communicating.
23:52
Okay.
23:52
Yeah, yeah.
23:52
So she was, you know s- An important distinction, yeah.
23:55
Yeah, a very important distinction.
23:56
And, and so she said, "Do you see how your son wants to pull me to
24:01
do something, versus Michelangelo wants to play and engage?"
24:04
So she actually educated me on h- what is his autism and what isâ¦
24:09
She said, "It's a communication.
24:10
He has communication and social skills.
24:13
But just know that you caught it early, and he's an excellent
24:19
candidate for early intervention.
24:21
And I don't say this often, but I wanna say that with him, I see that if
24:26
you do something about this now, the chances of him having a high-functioning
24:30
life is gonna be significant."
24:32
So she gave me hope.
24:33
Mm.
24:33
She made me feel better about finding out now than later.
24:38
She
24:38
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't even trying to sell you anything.
24:38
She didn't sell me anything
24:44
Laila Rahmatian: What would she sell?
24:45
What did she sell?
24:46
What would she sell to me?
24:47
Rupert Isaacson: Well-
24:47
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yeah, like the first doctor sold me the autism stuff, yeah
24:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
24:50
Exactly.
24:51
And it's a tricky one because, you know, say for example somebody comes
24:54
to me obviously I have a program.
24:56
In the old days I didn't, I was just a dad.
24:57
So am I going to recommend my program or one of the programs that
25:02
does what we've trained them to do?
25:04
Yeah, I would.
25:04
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
25:05
Rupert Isaacson: But if I, if I recommend you to go to one of our Horse Boy
25:10
places, I get no money for that, right?
25:12
It's, that's between you and them.
25:15
Yeah.
25:15
And I think that this is really important because- You, when we were
25:20
first doing Horse Boy, people suggested that we should do it as a franchise.
25:26
And although we train people, we charge for that, and although the
25:31
people pay not much money to be on a, a website that is sort of like a
25:36
professional association that also m- you know, gi- gives them continuous ed.
25:42
It's, it's really very little money.
25:44
And so if you, if I recommend you to go to one of, quote unquote, "our
25:49
people," Rupert Isaacson or Horse Boy Central or whatever you wanna call
25:54
it, makes no money at all from that.
25:57
And I, I do think that that is extremely important.
26:02
And so we rejected the franchise issue e- thing, even though people said, "Well,
26:06
you know, you could really make money," and, you know, "Think about your child,"
26:10
you know, "This could, could be, you know, his long-term financial future."
26:13
Yeah.
26:14
But it just didn't feel right.
26:15
And as a, as a parent, I was like, "No.
26:18
No, you need to know that the people that you're taking your kid to are
26:23
not part of some giant conspiracy to-
26:27
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
26:27
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: get as much money- Oh â¦ you know, as possible.
26:29
You, you just gotta know this.
26:31
So it sounds like, you know, you definitely picked the
26:33
right doctor there with Dr.
26:34
Morgan.
26:34
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
26:35
Yeah, and she was, she was amazing, and she s- and she just said, "I'm
26:39
very particular about ABA, and I don't think all of it is great."
26:42
But she validated the one that I was going to, and she, she gave me her blessing
26:47
that, "They are someone I would trust, but do keep me posted on how they're doing."
26:51
So then I got out with, like, a whole different mindset, and I just started,
26:57
you know, getting things going with the speech therapy, with The area I live
27:02
in in Indianapolis, it, that mindset culture is all about referral basis.
27:07
It's very strong on the referrals.
27:08
The Googles and other stuff, it doesn't matter.
27:11
It's the referral is, like, the most powerful.
27:13
And so I started him on the ABA at the school, and they, the therapist
27:19
within two weeks was amazing.
27:21
She was fantastic.
27:22
Her sister has autism, so I noticed that people that had a loved one in
27:27
that l- that lifestyle, they, they, they sympathize more, sympathize better.
27:33
And then the speech therapist told me, "You should do equine-assisted therapy."
27:37
And I said, "What?"
27:41
Because my brother told me about that he wanted to become an equine therapist
27:46
when Donatella was born, and I didn't know that that industry existed.
27:50
And so I immediately Googled and looked up, and I went and saw one
27:55
five minutes away from me, and they did a form of therapy called
27:58
hippotherapy, and I could barely get in.
28:02
So here I'm doing all these therapies, and then I'm trying to get into
28:06
equine therapy, and I barely could get in for t- once every two weeks
28:10
for just 20 minutes of riding and then 20 minutes of speech therapy.
28:14
And it was just honestly difficult, and it was a fancy-shmancy, wonderful
28:20
facility, but again, neon lights in the arena, and and we weren't able to get in.
28:26
We were not allowed in.
28:27
And I remember our first session.
28:28
I actually have a photo of it.
28:29
Rupert Isaacson: You were not allowed in the arena with
28:30
Laila Rahmatian: him?
28:30
I was not because of insurance reasons.
28:33
Mm.
28:33
Because this was insurance covering it.
28:35
And then my son was crying, and he wanted to go in, and I was like At least I get to
28:42
see my son doing therapy from this window.
28:45
And then and then Iâ¦
28:47
And then around that time, it was February, and we were not sure if
28:51
we wanted to go to, to Germany yet, and I was like f- building the team.
28:54
So speech therapy equine therapy, ABA therapy, and then we were just doing
29:00
like chiropractic and craniosacral, and I was just â¦ I was trying to become
29:05
this therapy mom of driving to different places, and I was getting frustrated.
29:09
And then, but I did enjoy the equine therapy even though
29:13
I saw him doing it barely.
29:14
But then something happened in f- in, in February, and I call it a sign.
29:19
I was working at a school that I was trying to see if I wanted to
29:24
work there 'cause I was doing math tutoring for ADHD kids, and then I was
29:29
substitute teaching in the math class.
29:30
And I don't know if I should share this, but this is reality.
29:36
I get fired because it's a Christian school, and I said a curse word.
29:41
Oops.
29:41
And I did, and I didn't realize that that was a bad thing.
29:44
And, you know, I call it grace and forgiveness.
29:47
I said a curse word.
29:49
And it was the mostâ¦
29:52
It was horrible.
29:54
I, I- They made a huge deal out of it.
29:57
They made a huge deal out of it.
29:57
They fired me.
29:57
They ostracized me.
29:59
The, the, the p- Very Christian of them.
30:01
Yeah.
30:02
And it, and honestly, it made me as a Christian-
30:04
Rupert Isaacson: Jesus would've, would've done the same thing,
30:06
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
30:06
Oh, actually, no.
30:08
And I I started to question my faith.
30:11
I was like, "That's it.
30:12
I don't wanna be a Christian anymore."
30:14
But I, But luckily, four parents that day that it wasâ¦
30:19
One of them was my client.
30:20
Theyâ¦
30:20
She says like, "It's called grace and forgiveness.
30:22
This is ridiculous."
30:24
And fast-forward, half the class found out that a former NASA engineer got
30:29
fired for teaching their kids math, and they replaced me with a former
30:33
sex ed teacher who doesn't know math, but because she's a Christian, they,
30:36
she's gonna te- she's gonna teach math.
30:38
And four parents called me because they all knew me 'cause I was volunteering
30:43
for robotics for them, and they, they were amazing parents, and one of
30:49
them was an autism parent becauseâ¦
30:51
And I had no idea her, his daughter was autistic, and
30:54
she had the best handwriting.
30:56
She was the best student I had in that class.
30:58
Mm.
30:59
And she said that we did early intervention, and we wereâ¦
31:02
She was in a Montessori school, and he told me some great things.
31:06
And then one other parent, he was the motivator to like Go to Germany or
31:12
do some- d- don't, don't feel bad.
31:14
Turn your back and walk away."
31:15
He said, "I've been watching you, and I see that great things are gonna come
31:19
out of you, and I think you're meant to do more than help these 16 kids."
31:23
Mm.
31:24
And we've kept in touch, and it's been great.
31:27
So I said to my husbandâ¦
31:30
He was soâ¦
31:30
He felt so bad 'cause he said, "Maybe this is God's way of saying you- we should turn
31:34
down Germany and you work at this school, and this could be a good environment."
31:37
And then when this happens- â¦ I was like- Nice â¦ and when
31:40
this ha- I was like, "No."
31:43
W- And I literally said, "Fuck it.
31:47
We're moving to Germany."
31:49
Mm-hmm.
31:51
And I'd beâ¦
31:52
Yeah, and I, and I said, "Okay, let's do this.
31:55
We're gonna do a conditional acceptance on Germany until we do a site visit.
32:01
So we're not gonna accept the job offer until we know that Donatel's
32:04
gonna get the support he needs."
32:05
'Cause that was our priority.
32:06
Anything we do in our career, our kids come first- Mm-hmm â¦ before career.
32:11
And so here I am forming this team in the US, and then we come and do a site visit
32:16
in March to see if this is even possible.
32:19
'Cause here I'm thinking- In Germany.
32:20
Oh, yeah, in Germany.
32:21
So here I'm thinking that the US and, and what I'm seeing is the best, the best.
32:26
Like, this best equine center, this best ABA thing.
32:29
I'm thinking like, "Okay, they have to beâ¦
32:33
I'm, I'm okay if it's here.
32:34
I'm not think- I'm not expecting it to be higher," because
32:36
someone told me autism therapy in Germany doesn't have a good rep.
32:40
And I was like, "Okay."
32:42
So then we do the site visit in, in March, and I had no expectations.
32:47
We see this school.
32:49
We're really happy about it, and this school referred us to an ABA place that
32:54
they have a different mindset on, on the, the, the way that things are done.
33:00
In fact, they're anti 40 hours.
33:01
They're all aboutâ¦
33:03
Like, they, they recommended only 15 hours max for Donatello.
33:06
Max, and not needing to use it all.
33:09
And then a speech therapist on the school, and then they were-- I said
33:13
to them, and I am so glad I said it.
33:15
I said, "I just wanna let you know that I'm-- we're also doing
33:17
equine-assisted therapy, and I'm just really curious to know if you've
33:21
ever heard of this and do this then."
33:23
And they're like, "Yeah, I actually can refer you to somebody.
33:26
It's called Horse Boy."
33:27
And I'm like, "Okay."
33:29
So I'm thinking that Horse Boy, I never, never heard of it, and I thought, "Oh,
33:35
Horse Boy means horse therapy in German."
33:38
You know, that's what I thought Horse Boy was.
33:41
And so I didn't, likeâ¦
33:42
And then they said, "Yeah, it's an old mom-and-pop shop, small business.
33:47
And we, we booked a time with you and, and same with everybody else."
33:51
And then I'll never forget, it was March 17th, 1:00.
33:55
They told me before leaving the school, 'cause the person that referred me to them
34:00
said, "I don't know them, but I heard that they don't, they don't speak English."
34:04
And I also-
34:06
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't say much for my English, does it?
34:08
Laila Rahmatian: I, I heard they don't speak English, and
34:10
it, it is, it is not fancy.
34:12
And I said, "I don't care about fancy," 'cause I s- like I said, I went to a
34:15
fancy schmancy place, and I can barely get in, and I'm not seeing that muchâ¦
34:20
I'm not, not getting much writing time.
34:22
I said, "I don't care about fancy schmancy.
34:25
I need hope.
34:26
I care-- I just need hope."
34:28
And
34:31
And then I come and we, we s- my husband speaks broken German at that time.
34:36
He's, he's, he speaks German.
34:37
It, it just takes a while for him to pick it up.
34:39
And then he's calling this woman named Eliana, your wife, and he's speaking
34:44
to her in German saying that we're trying to figure out where you are.
34:47
And she says, "I can speak English."
34:49
And then I said, "Oh, then maybe the husband doesn't speak English.
34:53
Maybe she does, and maybe the guy we're s- speaking to is German.
34:57
Okay, get ready, Andrew.
34:58
Get ready to speak German."
35:00
And then we-- And then Andrew goes up to, to you and as I'm getting the kids,
35:05
the kids passed out in the car, and then Andrew comes up to me and I come
35:09
up to you and And then you're doing the, like you start doing this, you're
35:14
like, "Rah, rah, rah," with your glasses on, and you speak in German to me.
35:18
And I look at Andrew, and he says, "He's British.
35:21
He's English."
35:21
I was like, "What?
35:23
You're English."
35:25
So I, I was definitely misinformed about the, the J- English part.
35:30
I apologize.
35:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I was told that you guys sp- needed to speak
35:33
German, so I greeted you in German.
35:37
I- And then it's like, oh, you know, what's going on here?
35:40
Laila Rahmatian: Really?
35:41
Oh my gosh.
35:42
Rupert Isaacson: Americans, yeah, okay that's,
35:43
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
35:44
Yeah.
35:44
So yeah, then, so yeah, I remember speaking to you, and you asked
35:49
Andrew, 'cause I had to, I said to you, "I have to go to the restroom."
35:52
Rupert Isaacson: That was the first thing out of your mouth, "I need to go poo."
35:54
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
35:55
I didn't say that.
35:55
We haven't got a bathroom
35:56
Rupert Isaacson: here on site.
35:57
Laila Rahmatian: And, oh,
35:57
Rupert Isaacson: no, I didn't say- I do remember, because you said,
35:59
because it was important, 'cause I said, "Okay, if you needâ¦"
36:01
'Cause we didn't have a bathroom on site where we're keeping
36:03
the horses at that time.
36:04
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
36:04
Rupert Isaacson: So I said, "If it's number one, nature wee, but if it's
36:09
number two, I need to make a plan because there's actually a place
36:12
down the road where we do training."
36:14
"But I just need to give them a call."
36:15
So you had to say, like in your first meeting with me it's a number two.
36:20
And I was like, "Okay."
36:20
Laila Rahmatian: I did not say that.
36:23
I did- You certainly did â¦ I did, you said to me, "Between one
36:25
and 10, what is the severity?"
36:27
I said, "It's five."
36:28
He says, "Okay, that's gonna be probably be a seven or eight."
36:31
Yeah.
36:31
I said, "I just need to go to the restroom."
36:33
Rupert Isaacson: So I, anyway, I called my friend Rolf, who had the
36:37
place where we did our, you know, our indoor training, lives down the road.
36:40
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
36:40
Rupert Isaacson: Someone needs to come use the loo, and yeah,
36:43
Laila Rahmatian: yeah,
36:43
Rupert Isaacson: we went down
36:43
Laila Rahmatian: there.
36:43
And we had just started potty training in January with Donatello, so it's like
36:47
three months of potty training that I was trying to get, taking him as well.
36:51
So I was focusing on him, and I guess myself.
36:54
And I remember walking into that area, and you asked Andrew, "So why are you here?"
37:00
Mm.
37:00
And I, and then I was walking up the stairs, and Andrew said,
37:05
and we were not confident.
37:06
We were, we were keeping this diagnosis a secret.
37:10
Our family didn't, only our parents knew, but we said, "Don't tell anyone else."
37:14
I was just not r- com- prepared to share that information.
37:17
I thought I was gonna keep it a secret forever honestly.
37:21
And and we said, and Andrew said to you like, "We found out our son has autism."
37:25
And, and he said, "Well, my son has autism."
37:28
And I was like, and I'm walking up the stairs, like, no way this good-looking
37:32
man would have, be, have an autism son.
37:35
There just, there's no way.
37:36
Like, I have never seen an autism s- a father like that before.
37:41
'Cause I'veâ¦
37:42
And I say this because I see autism, autistic parents, and they look
37:48
extremely unhealthy And this is veryâ¦
37:52
I don't mean to be rude, but, like, I've seen them extremely unhealthy,
37:56
n- not, not involved in the therapy.
38:02
They just drop their kids off at therapy.
38:03
So to know that somebody who is working in this field is an autism
38:08
parent, that was a shock to me.
38:11
And I thought, 'cause, 'cause here we are and we are telling
38:15
you, like, I'm from Texas.
38:17
And then you said, "I'm from Texas."
38:19
And I said, "Sure you are."
38:22
I'm telling myself.
38:23
And then, then we say that our son has autism, and then you say,
38:27
"Well, I have a son with autism."
38:28
And I'm like, "I'm sure you do."
38:32
I'm thinking, "This guy's pitching at me.
38:38
Like, I think this- I think he's full of shit.
38:41
Like, I honestly think he's lying to me."
38:44
Because- A
38:44
Rupert Isaacson: very quick Google would've
38:47
Laila Rahmatian: No, I don't know anything about you.
38:49
Yeah.
38:49
And and at the same time, I c- I kept getting your name wrong.
38:52
I d- I asked your name several times and, and at this time I'm
38:57
getting a little overwhelmed because- Isaac Rupertsson, I think.
38:59
Yeah â¦ I kept calling you I- I said Isaac Rupertsson.
39:02
And my husband's like, "Andrew, it's R-" Oh, Pat and I have that.
39:04
It does sound gr- it flows really well.
39:07
And Andr- so I getâ¦
39:08
So this all is happening after I get back from the restroom and,
39:11
and when I get back, Andrew says, "Layla, I think this guy's legit.
39:14
He's worked with Temple Grandin."
39:15
And I know Temple Grandin.
39:16
I, I mean, in terms of hearing of her.
39:18
And I'm like, "So maybe he worked under her.
39:21
Maybe he was apprenticed by her."
39:23
Like, I'm just not knowing anything about you, but all this is hitting me.
39:27
And then we get back to the, to the field, and Donatello is
39:32
running off and I'm chasing him.
39:35
And but first we get a horse, and he's having a tantrum.
39:37
He's having a tantrum, and I'm really embarrassed.
39:42
I'm extremely embarrassed in front of you.
39:50
And you get the horse, and you put him on the horse, and you said that, "My son said
39:54
his first words on this, on the horse."
39:57
And I was likeâ¦
39:58
And then you mentioned oxytocin and neuroplasticity.
40:04
And I take, I ta- I asked if I could take a photo, and I take
40:06
this photo, and you have the most beautiful smile looking at my son.
40:13
And and then I have it still recorded that you said, like, "We will help you.
40:20
My team will help you."
40:22
And I used it also as a way to kind of confirm if I really heard that
40:25
correctly, 'cause again, I'm thinking, "You're saying you're from Texas.
40:29
I'm from Texas.
40:30
You're saying you have a son with autism.
40:31
I have a kid with autism.
40:33
I just can't really trust you because everything sounds so good to be true."
40:39
Okay?
40:40
And then because here I am, I'm dealing, I've dealt with people
40:43
that have sold to me, and I find out they're, they're lying and they'reâ¦
40:48
And identity fraud is real.
40:50
Anyways, and so then Donatello's running off after the horse,
40:54
and you tell me, "Let him go."
40:56
And I was like, "Okay, fine.
40:59
I'll let him go."
41:00
That's the first time that a parent, someone's telling me not to chase my kid.
41:04
Fine.
41:04
Yeah.
41:05
And I'm following you, and
41:07
Rupert Isaacson: I- And just for the record, for those listening, we had
41:09
a particularly safe environment there where- Yes, you did â¦ any could,
41:12
could take off in any direction and l- literally run for two kilometers
41:17
before they would hit any kind of road, and a straight sight line of-
41:21
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
41:22
Rupert Isaacson: open field.
41:22
So you could absolutely see them.
41:25
And that way you could also observe, well, how far will they go-
41:29
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
41:30
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what do they wanna do, where will they stop,
41:32
and what will they get involved in?
41:34
And we can get, catch up to them, 'cause I'm on horseback, like in seconds.
41:39
So- Mm-hmm â¦ we had that luxury there.
41:42
'Cause I know that some people who are listening to this say, "Well,
41:44
you know, my center's right by a road," or whatever, and there's
41:47
no way- Yes, that's a good point
41:48
you don't have that luxury.
41:49
So, the only reason- Mm-hmm â¦ I said it there was in that particular
41:53
environment, this could happen.
41:54
Okay?
41:55
Just-
41:55
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
41:56
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
41:58
considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
42:03
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
42:07
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
42:13
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
42:20
developed in conjunction with Dr.
42:22
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
42:25
We work in the saddle with younger children.
42:29
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
42:35
It works incredibly well.
42:36
It's now in about 40 countries.
42:39
Check it out.
42:40
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
42:44
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
42:48
applied in schools, in homes.
42:50
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
42:55
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
42:58
when they're not with you.
42:59
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
43:03
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
43:06
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
43:10
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
43:15
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
43:18
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
43:22
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
43:27
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
43:30
need, as well as Serving my clients.
43:33
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
43:38
absolutely gives you this.
43:40
Laila Rahmatian: No, thank you for clarifying that.
43:41
That is very accurate and true, that it was an environment that I did not know
43:46
how far was safe, but the fact that you said it, I was like, "You know what?
43:49
Fine."
43:50
I'm thinking, "Show me what you got."
43:53
You know?
43:53
I'm- Mm.
43:55
I apologize, but I was, I was-
43:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
43:57
Laila Rahmatian: I- it- Yeah
43:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: skepticism is very-
43:58
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
43:59
Yeah, it is.
44:00
And I don't trust people right away, especially when it comes to my son.
44:04
No.
44:05
And especially with this diagnosis, I really started to become
44:08
d- doubtful because of the-
44:09
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
44:10
Laila Rahmatian: it is an industry, you know?
44:11
Yeah â¦ it is an industry, and I was like, "Okay, whereâ¦
44:13
W- Like, l- I'm getting ready for the sales pitch.
44:16
I'm getting ready for theâ¦"
44:17
Yeah.
44:17
And so as we were going, you were riding, and Donatello was riding,
44:21
and I think just seeing how you were riding and seeing how you knew exactly
44:26
what you were doing- I was just eyeing you up and down and looking at what
44:33
you were saying Yeah, I was, I was
44:34
Rupert Isaacson: shadowing and tailing your son from the back of the horse, yeah.
44:37
Laila Rahmatian: And you were, and I was watching and eyeing you
44:40
and what you were doing with my son, and I was taking a step back.
44:44
Yet you still told me, like, you know, I was holding the dog.
44:49
The dog's name is Alex?
44:50
It's one of our
44:50
Rupert Isaacson: three dogs, probably Axel maybe.
44:52
Laila Rahmatian: Axel.
44:53
It was Axel.
44:53
'Cause Axel
44:54
Rupert Isaacson: gets it a lot.
44:54
Was it the big one or the little one?
44:55
Laila Rahmatian: Axel.
44:55
It was Axel.
44:56
It's a lot of names.
44:57
Yeah.
44:57
And so it was Axel, and I was holding his leash and I told myself, "Just listen.
45:03
Just listen and see what he's doing.
45:06
This is really peaceful."
45:08
And it was nice that I was involved, and you were talking to me as you
45:12
were following him, and you were explaining some things to me.
45:16
And then on top of it, you had asked me, "Have you heard of The
45:20
Horse Boy movie and the book?"
45:22
And I said No, I haven't.
45:26
I haven't.
45:27
And I was like, "Oh, Horse Boy's not horse ther- it doesn't mean horse therapy.
45:33
It's actually a method."
45:35
And then you shared with me that, and you said it in the most humblest
45:38
way, that it's a method I created.
45:42
And and I, and I wasâ¦
45:43
That's when I started to listen more, because you weren't saying,
45:46
"Oh, you should have heard of me.
45:48
You haven't heard of my work?"
45:49
You know?
45:50
Yeah, you were like- I sh- yeah.
45:51
Yeah, well, I mean, I have had people tell me, "I can't believe you
45:55
haven't heard of my work," you know?
45:56
And I'm like, "Well, I'm glad that I-" There's
45:58
Rupert Isaacson: about nine billion people in the world, so I'm sure most of them
46:00
haven't heard of me, yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:02
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
46:03
But I, at the same time, I was shocked that it was going so well.
46:08
I was happy to s- that it was going so well, and then I was also ready to hear
46:12
you tell me, "So you need to buy a horse."
46:15
Yeah.
46:15
I was ready for you to tell me to buy a horse or to learn, like, "To
46:19
do this, you need to have a horse.
46:21
To do this, you need to learn how to ride."
46:23
But then you mentioned this method called Movement Method, and you told
46:26
me, like, "This is what you need to do.
46:29
Email me and remind me to send you the link to this and this," and I wrote it all
46:34
down on my notepad, on my i- iNotes, and I was just blown away that there was noâ¦
46:41
The session went really, really well.
46:43
I was prepared for a sales pitch.
46:45
I was prepared for being spoken down to, and none of that happened.
46:50
It was the most genuine, kindest, down-to-earth meeting I had, and
46:59
I felt like there was, like, a camera spinning around me, like
47:02
I'm hitting this epiphany moment.
47:04
Yeah.
47:04
And then this car comes down.
47:07
A car drives by, this white car, and out comes this beautiful lady named
47:13
Ileana, and this beautiful girl.
47:16
And then you said, "Oh, here's the boss.
47:18
This is the boss."
47:19
And it was F- it was Freya, and the, that was a, that was the shock.
47:25
She's amazing.
47:26
Yeah.
47:26
Yes.
47:27
Yeah, your daughter, Freya.
47:29
And you were like, "Here's the real boss."
47:31
And and that was when it hit me really hard.
47:36
And I instantly trusted you when your daughter came out
47:39
of the car and shook my hand.
47:43
And so shout out to Freya.
47:45
But that was when I realized, okay, this man is not trying to help my son.
47:50
This family is trying to help my family, and this is a genuine, kind family.
47:57
This is not a, a business agenda, money-driven industry type job
48:04
compared to what I'm, I'm now seeing.
48:06
So I'm goingâ¦
48:07
This is five months into my journey of autism with my son, so October, November,
48:12
December, January, February, March.
48:13
So March is when I'm not evenâ¦
48:17
yeah, five months since Donatelle's diagnosed that I f- I discovered you.
48:22
And then and then you were getting your rope and putting it together, and Elliana
48:28
was standing there, and you looked at her, and you said, "He's just like Rowan."
48:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he was, he is just like Rowan was at his age.
48:41
He is.
48:42
Laila Rahmatian: I- But my response was, "Who is Rowan?"
48:47
And I, and I cry about it because now I know who Rowan is.
48:51
And so, so I get, so we get into the car, and my, and I look at my husband.
48:57
We both were, like, in awe, and I'm like, "What just happened?"
49:03
Because you rec- and you told me, and you were likeâ¦
49:05
I feel like you were mad, but you were serious.
49:07
You were very serious, and you were like, "He needs to be
49:10
outside two to four hours a day.
49:13
This is his environment."
49:15
And I'm like, "Well, how come no one fucking told me that before?"
49:17
I didn't know that.
49:18
Mm.
49:18
And so I immediately apply that.
49:20
And so we get back to the car.
49:22
We call our agent, and w- we I s- weâ¦
49:26
Immediately Andrew and I said, "This is our sign.
49:29
We're moving to Germany.
49:30
We're moving to Germany.
49:31
I don't know who this guy is, but he knows exactly what he's doing.
49:34
He can help my son."
49:35
And I immediately go back home.
49:39
We accept the job offer that then you said to us, "I have good news
49:42
and bad news, and I tell you flat out, tell me bad news right now."
49:44
And you're like, "Well, we're moving."
49:45
And "But it's okay.
49:46
I'll have my team help you."
49:47
And I said, "Well, when are you moving?"
49:48
"In August."
49:49
And I said, "Well, we're planning on moving in August."
49:51
So then Andrew says, "I will see if I can start the job six weeks earlier."
49:55
So we move in s- so fast forward, we accept the job offer.
49:59
We move to Germany in July, and from the March till July, I read your book.
50:05
I watch your movie.
50:06
I have a consultation call with you 'cause you told me to do that, and I did it.
50:10
And and then I did the Moven Method one and two course online, and then we signed
50:15
up for Moven Method three when I arrived.
50:18
And then with Ileana, I, we scheduled, like, 13 sessions until you left.
50:23
I just wanted to book you right away doing three sessions at Equine c- because again,
50:27
I was getting 20 minutes in every two weeks, and I'm like, three hours a week?
50:33
I'm so excited.
50:34
I'm so excited.
50:35
It's not about the hours of being on the horse.
50:37
It's just the hours of getting, working on his brain, working on his body-mind
50:42
awareness, his neuroplasticity.
50:44
And with the course, learning about Moven Method, I understood what you were
50:50
talking about in that two-hour session.
50:53
And on top of that, Rupert, I got to understand how you got from where
50:59
you were to where you are today.
51:00
So it was, it was like I went backwards to understand what you
51:03
were talking about, and that wasâ¦
51:06
I was very fortunate to have that opportunity to s- Mm.
51:10
And then when I was reading your book- I saw exactly what you meant
51:15
by he's just like Rowan, 'cause I felt like I was reading about my son.
51:20
And the movie was very difficult for me to watch.
51:24
Lots of crying and, and at the same time I'm seeing my kid doing
51:28
the same thing at that moment.
51:29
So it was very, it was very great of you to write that book.
51:34
I, I applaud you for writing that book, and then I read The Long Ride Home,
51:38
and that was an amazing book as well.
51:42
And so then I did Method Method 3 and we just, we, we
51:45
landed in Germany on July 10th.
51:46
Our first session, I have my notes, was on
51:54
July 15th.
51:55
And so no one knew this until I told you like months later that people were
52:02
telling me that they, that they, that's g- about equine therapy not being effective.
52:07
They were skeptical.
52:09
And so by reading about your work and then seeing three different methods,
52:13
PATH, hippotherapy, PATH, 'cause I went to another stable that got me in
52:17
one month before I got in to get 30 minutes, and I told this PATH center.
52:22
They were really nice.
52:23
They, they did the certification, but I told them, "Have you heard of Horse Boy?"
52:28
And she said no, but the speech therapist said, "I have heard of him
52:32
fif- I heard about him 15 years ago."
52:34
And I said, "I'm working with him."
52:36
They're like, "That is awesome."
52:39
And so having some staff know, kn- knew that I am getting my son ready to
52:45
work with you, that, that that stable was supporting the preparation to work
52:53
with you by getting ready for the move.
52:55
So I do, I did keep in touch with them.
52:57
I even gave them your book so she could read about it and, and about your work
53:03
because there were some things with hippo and PATH I, at these places I didn't
53:07
like and that was They were putting him on the horse and then with one s-
53:13
one method they were like, "If he wants to get off, we just, we honor it."
53:16
But one other method did, they said, "Let's just keep
53:19
him on until he's regulated."
53:20
And there was one time where Donatel was having a tantrum.
53:24
The lady says, "Let me get him on the horse."
53:26
And for 20 minutes he was just losing it, and finally he kinda just gave in and
53:32
regulated, but he passed out afterwards.
53:35
And I was like, "I don't like this."
53:37
Mm.
53:37
And so then when we moved to see you, I, having heard about all these
53:44
two meth- these two other methods and then learning about your method,
53:47
but not knowing it until I s- did it with you, I decided to record data
53:52
because there was so much skepticism coming from other people's mouths.
53:56
No one was advocating for this.
53:59
No one was telling me about equine-assisted therapy.
54:02
Everyone was telling me about all the therapies that I got on
54:05
right away, the ABA, the speech.
54:08
And, but it was the speech therapist who had worked at that equine center
54:13
told me, "You should do this."
54:15
It was kinda like a crack in the middle of all this.
54:18
It was someone cracked through and told me this secret.
54:21
Mm.
54:23
And if it wasn't for her, I would never have requested to go and
54:27
find an equine therapy, assisted therapy service in Germany.
54:32
But that was the special glue that made us decide to accept the
54:35
job offer because we felt like you were gonna, you and the team.
54:40
And it's true, we're getting more support here than we did in the
54:43
States, and that's in, in Indiana.
54:46
But I wasâ¦
54:47
But with all the negativity and the back and forth feedback of yes, no,
54:52
whatever, I said, "Well, I'm an engineer.
54:54
I collect data."
54:56
And I collected data.
54:59
Yeah.
55:00
And Iâ¦
55:01
All right.
55:01
So where do you want me to start?
55:03
I don't know.
55:04
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think it would be really useful for people because
55:06
you, you, you collected data right from the get-go, and you collected
55:09
data in the sessions that I was doing.
55:12
And then, as you know, after I moved my colleague Kira took over.
55:17
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
55:18
Rupert Isaacson: And so then you were also recording data with her.
55:21
Yeah.
55:21
And then you followed our recommendation to also go up to
55:25
our friends Henrik and Gitty up in central Germany, and y- you recorded
55:31
what, you know, went on with them.
55:32
You went down to our friend Carla, who's down in Heidelberg,
55:35
who also does an amazing job.
55:37
So, and as you know- Yeah â¦ with Horse Boy, that's what we do.
55:41
We recommend- Yeah â¦ that you go to a variety of, of places.
55:44
So I'd be really interested- Yes â¦ to know, yeah, what was
55:46
the data in the sessions with me?
55:47
What was the data in the sessions with Kira?
55:49
What was the s- you know.
55:50
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
55:51
Absolutely.
55:52
Rupert Isaacson: Just, just give the
55:52
Laila Rahmatian: chronology.
55:52
Totally.
55:53
Yeah.
55:54
I mean, I worked, and then, so, you know, from, we started our first
55:57
session July 15th, and our last session was on July 4th so far.
56:02
July 7th.
56:03
So it was like a g- equivalent of 11 to 10 months of sessions, which is
56:07
like 70 to 71 sessions of Horse Boy.
56:10
And the first session that I had with you, he was barely on the horse for like
56:14
one to three minutes, and that was when I knew how different you were, where you
56:18
were like, "The child comes up to me."
56:19
I'm like, "How does a child come up to the horse?"
56:21
And I noticed I have it noted on the third session that he leaned against
56:27
your arm, and that was special for you, I know you said, 'cause you
56:33
said that's exactly what Rowan did.
56:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
56:35
Laila Rahmatian: And-
56:36
Rupert Isaacson: Up there in the saddle leaning his full weight
56:37
into- Yeah â¦ your elbow.
56:38
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
56:38
Yeah, yeah.
56:39
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
56:39
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
56:42
Yeah.
56:43
And I, I decided to record riding time because for me, that was important
56:50
to record- Mm-hmm â¦ mounted time, unmounted time, after session time- Mm-hmm
56:55
â¦ behavior at the school- Mm-hmm â¦ 24-hour and post 48-hour, like end milestones.
57:01
Like if anything happened, I recorded it.
57:03
Like, what is happening to him during and after the session because, you know,
57:08
you're building your neuroplasticity, you're, you're building BDNF And all
57:13
the things that I was learning from you and from your team, that it's
57:17
like there's, it's like working out.
57:18
Like, your muscle fibers are still forming.
57:21
You're growing and you've, you've torn them, now they're, they're building.
57:24
And that's how I saw it with him.
57:26
But what I did, what I focused on, on was just my personal goal of how he
57:32
can sit still and, and concentrate.
57:35
Mm-hmm.
57:35
So he went, we went, we went from one to three minutes, and then by the th- by
57:40
the third session, he went to 10 minutes.
57:42
But the first 10 sessions, I noted that Donatello's seeing a difference,
57:47
and I'm seeing a difference between the two other methods, Hippo and
57:50
PATH, and I'm noticing that Donatello now wants to go up to the horse.
57:55
He wants to go and now, But then by the 13th sessio- session, the therapists
58:02
that I was w- that I had been working with, that I brought on board, they
58:06
were impressed by how he didn't have a tantrum anymore, and no issues
58:11
with, with transitions as it was.
58:14
He started to make eye contact, which again, was one of the
58:17
two original signs of autism.
58:19
Point eye contact and name.
58:22
Pointing and name, but also eye contact.
58:25
By the 16th session, which is when we worked with Kira, 'cause
58:28
we did 13 sessions with you.
58:30
Mm-hmm.
58:31
And we did a session which, it was in an envir- I, I wanna say this.
58:35
It was in an environment that was safe.
58:38
No one was there, so we did waist down.
58:41
Like, n- like, he was stripped waist down.
58:45
He had to get- To pee â¦ back in touch
58:46
Rupert Isaacson: with his body for toilet training.
58:48
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
58:49
Because there were- We're talking
58:51
Rupert Isaacson: about working in a forest, guys.
58:52
He had so little contact-
58:52
Laila Rahmatian: Yes, we're in a, he's working in a forest
58:54
with other humans, just, yeah We were in a likeâ¦
58:56
Yeah, there was no other person.
58:57
And I was, like, uncomfortable 'cause I'm not used to that, but
59:01
at the same time, I di- I was in an environment to be able to do that.
59:06
Yeah.
59:06
And so on the 16th session, he saw himself pee.
59:11
And you were telling me before that, like, that's good, that he's
59:14
making that body-mind connection.
59:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, because they wear-
59:16
Laila Rahmatian: And I would-
59:17
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the diapers so long, they lose touch with
59:19
what's going on down there.
59:20
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
59:21
Yeah.
59:21
And and he was also on that session requesting to go up,
59:25
and to request to go down.
59:27
And and then the session after that, he didn't want that, but then the
59:32
next session, he, it, he wanted more of, to to go up and down.
59:35
So there were sessions where he wasâ¦
59:38
It was, it's kinda like, you know, going up and excelling in your, in the data.
59:42
It's never upward u- hill.
59:43
It's goes up and down.
59:45
But I have noted that on the 19th session- He said on and off without being prompted.
59:55
And heâ¦
59:57
Go ahead.
59:57
Go ahead.
59:58
No, you go ahead.
59:59
And then he said yes and no at school when he was asked a question,
1:00:03
and he slept the entire night.
1:00:05
We were having problems with him sleeping-
1:00:07
Rupert Isaacson: And this is
1:00:08
Laila Rahmatian: session
1:00:08
Rupert Isaacson: number?
1:00:09
â¦ Laila Rahmatian: a little bit.
1:00:09
19.
1:00:10
Rupert Isaacson: 19.
1:00:11
Yeah.
1:00:11
Also, I do remember that in one of the sessions with me, that was when heâ¦
1:00:15
Do you remember?
1:00:16
He, he wanted toâ¦
1:00:17
So the environment we had we were surrounded by plum orchards-
1:00:21
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes
1:00:22
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: which were all fruiting when- Yes
1:00:25
he came.
1:00:25
And one of the, the reasons why I said let him go, 'cause I knew
1:00:28
he'd seen the plums on the trees, 'cause they were very bright, and
1:00:31
he wanted to go check them out.
1:00:33
And I said, "Let him go eat.
1:00:33
Let him go forage."
1:00:35
That was- Yeah â¦ so when you and I were following him on that first
1:00:37
session, we only, we only needed to go between, like 75 yards, and then- Yeah
1:00:44
he, he had discovered, "Oh my gosh, I can eat these plums."
1:00:47
And then quite quickly after that, When he was up with me and I was
1:00:54
showing him, "Well, this is an apple tree, this is a plum tree."
1:00:56
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:00:57
Rupert Isaacson: Do you remember?
1:00:58
And he said- Oh,
1:00:59
Laila Rahmatian: yeah
1:00:59
â¦ " Rupert Isaacson: plum tree."
1:01:01
Can you tell me which session that was?
1:01:04
Because that wasn't him- Oh, gosh
1:01:06
that wasn't him echolalia-ing it.
1:01:09
It was him saying which one he wanted.
1:01:11
So, 'cause I was saying-
1:01:11
Laila Rahmatian: yeah
1:01:12
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: go, 'cause he was eating the apples, and he was eating the plums.
1:01:14
And I said, and he, I had him in the saddle, and I saidâ¦
1:01:16
'Cause we could pick them from the saddle.
1:01:18
And I said-
1:01:18
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah â¦ "Okay.
1:01:19
Rupert Isaacson: Do you wanna go to the apple tree or the plum tree?"
1:01:21
He said, "To the plum tree."
1:01:23
Which session was that?
1:01:25
Laila Rahmatian: The first session, he said, "Pear tree."
1:01:29
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
1:01:29
Laila Rahmatian: And, and he I don't rec- I, he said, "Pear tree," and that's when
1:01:34
I knew, like, there's something here.
1:01:36
Yeah.
1:01:36
I apologize.
1:01:37
I did not s- I did not have it here.
1:01:38
I have it on my other notes that he said, "Pear tree," and that
1:01:42
reminded me of Rowan saying, "Heron."
1:01:47
Yeah.
1:01:47
And so that was our version of- Yeah â¦ experiencing the, a, a word
1:01:51
like heron, but it was pear tree.
1:01:53
And you, you shared with me your observation of that.
1:01:59
And I have a video of him.
1:02:02
I have, I have videos captured, and I, I captured him s- you doing a
1:02:07
session with him on that first session.
1:02:09
But also, what was amazing that he said a word without I
1:02:14
had never taught him before.
1:02:15
Yeah.
1:02:16
That was, that was, that was new for me.
1:02:18
'Cause I taught him everything, but he said something that I
1:02:20
didn't, I never taught him.
1:02:22
I didn't even know that he knew that was a pear tree
1:02:27
Yeah.
1:02:28
Rupert Isaacson: There's no better way to know than by eating the pears and the
1:02:30
plums and the apples that grow on them.
1:02:32
And that was-
1:02:32
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:02:33
Rupert Isaacson: you know, it, it, that's so much the advantage of, of
1:02:36
that kind of environment because you get those motivations in the kid.
1:02:40
And remember my first communication with Rowan was all about foraging.
1:02:44
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:02:45
Rupert Isaacson: Before we ever went to the horse, because it's so built
1:02:48
into the human DNA- Yeah â¦ to forage.
1:02:51
It's- Yeah
1:02:52
what we are.
1:02:53
We're hunters and gatherers.
1:02:54
When you go to the supermarket, you're foraging.
1:02:57
So we're moti- We, we, we learn the vocabulary first of what
1:03:02
our biology motivates us to do.
1:03:04
Mm-hmm.
1:03:04
So usually that's comfort with m- with mom first.
1:03:08
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:03:08
Rupert Isaacson: And then it very quickly goes to other food sources.
1:03:14
Mm-hmm.
1:03:14
And there's relatively few children these days, neurotypical or otherwise, who
1:03:19
actually get to grow up in the environment that a human is supposed to grow up
1:03:23
in, where they are supposed to forage.
1:03:25
And then- Yeah â¦ by foraging you learn to order your environment,
1:03:28
and then you learn to cope in your environment, you learn to problem solve
1:03:32
and, and, and, and, and there it goes.
1:03:34
And so it's always really interesting to me when we have kids and you
1:03:39
can let them do that, to see how- Yeah â¦ quickly they begin to develop.
1:03:43
Even when they seem to be r- relatively severe, like more severe than Donatello.
1:03:49
Yeah â¦ because it, because on a DNA level it makes perfect sense.
1:03:53
Yeah.
1:03:53
And if they're not motivated by that, you know that you've got
1:03:57
some deeper work to do to sort of-
1:04:00
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:04:00
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: restart, in a funny way, that nervous system and those neurons.
1:04:05
But that, back to your thing of the, the, the center in Texas with the whiteâ¦
1:04:12
or Indi- Indianapolis, where with the white walls and the fluorescent
1:04:16
strip lights and it looking like a, an asylum or a jail And saying, "Well, I
1:04:21
know this is the wrong environment."
1:04:23
On a DNA level, we know exactly what the right- Mm-hmm
1:04:26
environment for a kid is, and it's a farm.
1:04:29
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:04:29
Rupert Isaacson: It's always a farm.
1:04:32
Yeah â¦ or the, or the wilderness.
1:04:34
And with no exceptions, like zero exceptions.
1:04:39
Mm.
1:04:39
And i- so if you do that, you are going to get the changes in the brain.
1:04:45
You're going to get the gut flora, because the kids will eat the stuff off the tree.
1:04:50
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:04:51
Rupert Isaacson: They'll eat th- they'll eat the apples that have fallen on
1:04:53
the ground with all- Mm-hmm â¦ of the gut flo- with all of the ba-
1:04:56
bacteria on them that they need to establish- Yes â¦ their immune system
1:05:00
and their neurons in their brain.
1:05:02
Yeah.
1:05:02
If you don't do this and you don't know that you'reâ¦
1:05:06
one should do this- Yeah
1:05:08
given the plethora of information that's out there these days- Yeah â¦ it's not
1:05:11
like this is unavailable information, Yeah â¦ particularly if you're working
1:05:16
with human beings and health- Yeah â¦ and mental health as well as physical health,
1:05:22
then we know it always comes back to effectively gut flora, which al- always
1:05:28
comes back to nature, because- Yeah
1:05:30
that's where you find it, you know?
1:05:31
So it, it's astonishing to me that-
1:05:38
It's not just common practice in every therapy- Yeah â¦ no matter what, to
1:05:47
say, "Let's do it in that environment."
1:05:49
Doesn't matter if it's equine, doesn't matter if it's ABA, doesn't
1:05:52
matter if it's this, doesn't matter.
1:05:53
Let's do it in that environment.
1:05:54
And if we do it in that environment, we're gonna see change because
1:05:58
we're gonna change the internal structures of the body in the way,
1:06:02
when the brain is the body, you know.
1:06:03
So I did a podcast the other day and they made a, a really good point saying
1:06:09
people talk about body, body-mind connection or body-brain connection,
1:06:14
but they don't talk about body-foot connection or body-nose connection.
1:06:19
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:06:20
As
1:06:20
Rupert Isaacson: if the brain was not part of the body when-
1:06:23
Laila Rahmatian: That's a true point.
1:06:25
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that- If you separate the brain from the
1:06:27
body metaphorically, it's one thing.
1:06:29
If you do it physically, well, that's a short experiment.
1:06:33
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:06:33
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
1:06:34
Laila Rahmatian: That is true.
1:06:35
I mean, and, and, and the thing is, is that, you know, you were teaching me so
1:06:39
much about what is the right environment.
1:06:42
And I was very disappointed that I had, like I'm very dis- I was very
1:06:47
disappointed that that was not something that was just shared with me, like the
1:06:51
nature piece, the, the, the things that-
1:06:55
Rupert Isaacson: You mean by the other therapist?
1:06:57
Laila Rahmatian: By the other therapists.
1:06:58
You know, I had to t- I-
1:06:59
Rupert Isaacson: But they don't know.
1:07:00
And, and what- They
1:07:00
Laila Rahmatian: don't know
1:07:01
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and what's crazy about this, there's two things they don't know.
1:07:03
They don't know that, and they don't know any neuroscience.
1:07:08
No.
1:07:08
And y- you say, "Well, they're not neuroscientists, Rupert.
1:07:10
They're equine therapists."
1:07:11
It's like, a- ah, come on.
1:07:14
Be curious.
1:07:16
If you're working with humans, you're working with the
1:07:18
brain and the nervous system.
1:07:20
Yes.
1:07:20
Especially if you're working with autism.
1:07:22
That's what you're doing, brain and nervous system.
1:07:24
Yeah.
1:07:24
So if you don't go and talk to neuroscientists, how
1:07:30
are you a professional?
1:07:32
Yeah.
1:07:32
And they are there to talk to.
1:07:34
You can Google them at the university faculty website,
1:07:41
and you can send them an email.
1:07:42
That's all we ever did.
1:07:43
Yeah.
1:07:44
Send them an email and say, "I have some questions.
1:07:47
Can you explain this?
1:07:48
Can you explain that?"
1:07:48
And they do.
1:07:49
They get back to you.
1:07:51
Laila Rahmatian: I, I, I mean, I, that's why I was capturing
1:07:53
data because there was noâ¦
1:07:55
I felt like-
1:07:58
Nobody was doing what I was doing.
1:08:00
And when I was telling people what I was doing and they have a child with autism,
1:08:04
they're like, "Oh, that's really cool.
1:08:06
I have never heard of that."
1:08:08
Or, "I, I did hear about it, but, you know, did they take insurance?"
1:08:12
Or, you know, "I, I, I tried to get in, I couldn't get in."
1:08:15
And that's another thing too, is like some of these therapeutic riding centers, they
1:08:19
just don't, they don't have enough to keep they don't have capacity or, and then, or
1:08:24
they just don't graduate these kids out to make more room for those other kids.
1:08:29
And I, and I started to notice that comparing it with what we were doing
1:08:34
together where we were having this extended amount of time that, you
1:08:38
know, this one-hour session or whatever the child needs type length of time
1:08:42
versus, oh, it's only 20 minutes.
1:08:46
It's only 30 minutes.
1:08:47
Rupert Isaacson: No, as you know now, I would, I always
1:08:48
book a minimum of two hours-
1:08:50
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:08:51
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: with a child like Donatello.
1:08:53
Yeah.
1:08:53
Because just the transitional thing can take 30 minutes.
1:08:58
So- Exactly â¦ you can't rush it.
1:09:01
No â¦ but what I also said to you, if you remember, is your session
1:09:06
is longer than your session.
1:09:07
You can hang out in this environment as long as you want.
1:09:10
Go take him in the orchard.
1:09:12
Go- Exactly â¦ play with the dogs.
1:09:14
Go explore whatever he wants to explore.
1:09:18
Go down to the stream with him.
1:09:19
Doâ¦
1:09:20
That's the whole environment we're working.
1:09:21
You don't need me and my horse to be with you the whole time.
1:09:24
Laila Rahmatian: And that was a shock for me.
1:09:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
1:09:27
Laila Rahmatian: That was a shock for me 'cause it's more of
1:09:29
like, "Okay, you have to go now," versus, "Okay, I'll, I'll do this.
1:09:35
Okay, I'm, I'm gonna go."
1:09:36
"Oh, okay.
1:09:37
All right, thanks."
1:09:38
You know, it was very, it was, it was surreal to know that I had that
1:09:42
permission- Mm â¦ to stay and, and then I saw that there was no again,
1:09:48
another hidden agenda of, like, a discussion down the road with
1:09:52
fees and extension of time orâ¦
1:09:56
You know, I'm just so used to hearing those- Sure â¦ nickel
1:09:59
and diming type discussions ofâ¦
1:10:02
And I just was prepared for those types of discussions, which I even noticed
1:10:07
that, and I said this to Eliana, "I really appreciate the transparency that this
1:10:13
is the fee and this is only the fee."
1:10:15
And, and that was alsoâ¦
1:10:17
I find that your work and your pro- You guys were just so professional.
1:10:21
Another thing too that I've dealt with is that a lot of these practitioners,
1:10:25
they come in and they bring their dirty laundry into our, our space,
1:10:30
and that was something that I dealt with a lot in, in my experience.
1:10:36
I'm not saying that this
1:10:38
Rupert Isaacson: is true.
1:10:38
Were they coming to complain and gossip about what's going on in their life?
1:10:39
Laila Rahmatian: Yes, and I was like- Yeah â¦ "Oh, I guess I'm gonna be
1:10:44
your therapist now too," because that's my nature, is like I'm a
1:10:48
nurturer and I like to help people.
1:10:50
And when someone's sharing with me they're having a problem,
1:10:53
I can't say, "Well, I'm sorry.
1:10:54
That sucks."
1:10:55
I'm like, "Okay."
1:10:56
You're really empathetic.
1:10:57
Sure.
1:10:57
I, I'm very empathetic and, but then it got, it gets to the point where,
1:11:01
it, it got to the point where I said to myself, "You know, if I wasn't moving
1:11:06
to Germany, I would fire them right now, but we only got a month left, so
1:11:09
let's just suck it up and deal with it.
1:11:10
And then when we go to Germany, I'm gonna just m- hopefully not deal with this."
1:11:15
And I, I did not.
1:11:17
And I mean, I, and I, and I don't know if you wanna know any more, but
1:11:21
the other milestones we had- Yeah,
1:11:22
Rupert Isaacson: let's go back to the data.
1:11:23
Laila Rahmatian: Let's- Sure.
1:11:23
Th- that's, and no, this is very great.
1:11:25
This is wonderful, by the way.
1:11:26
Okay.
1:11:26
I've enjoyed- Let's go through
1:11:27
Rupert Isaacson: now chronologically-
1:11:28
Laila Rahmatian: Sure
1:11:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what's going on.
1:11:28
Yeah.
1:11:29
Laila Rahmatian: So looking here I have it here noted that the, so on the session
1:11:36
19, we had huge milestone of saying yes and no, but on September 24th, which
1:11:41
was the a- another special session after he kissed me for the first time.
1:11:47
And he, he noticed himself going to the potty, but he
1:11:52
would always miss getting there.
1:11:54
So that was another thing.
1:11:55
Number two, 'cause we, we were really struggling with the potty training,
1:11:59
and there were times whereâ¦
1:12:02
That was session 24 and 25, but then by session 28 he s- he s-
1:12:07
he chased me for the first time.
1:12:09
He was also a person that he was used to people chasing him
1:12:13
but not ev- like reciprocity.
1:12:15
He wasn't chasing me back.
1:12:17
And then he was starting to play with Michelangelo on the 28th session, and
1:12:21
Michelangelo was so in awe because he's always chasing his brother.
1:12:26
He loves his brother.
1:12:28
And then on the 36th session Kira spelled out the le- the A-P-P-L-E,
1:12:37
and Donatella said, "Apple."
1:12:40
After she spelled it, didn't show him what it was, he said, "That is apple."
1:12:47
And we rode for 47 minutes, so I noticed that the riding time was increasing.
1:12:52
I'm not saying that's important, but it was important for me to
1:12:55
see how he would like to sit still and be attentive on something.
1:13:02
Because that was something that Kira told me, like, "Please
1:13:04
don't focus on riding time.
1:13:06
That is not how weâ¦
1:13:07
That's not the purpose of Horse Boy is the how long y'allâ¦"
1:13:10
I said, "I understand, but I'm doing that as part of my-
1:13:14
Rupert Isaacson: Sure, and it's just very telling that in the early stages
1:13:17
when often they wanna get up for a few-
1:13:19
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:13:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: sometimes a few minutes, to later- Mm-hmm â¦ sessions
1:13:22
when they want and are seeking out-
1:13:26
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:13:26
Rupert Isaacson: that extended time on the horse.
1:13:28
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:13:29
Rupert Isaacson: What's going on with that biologically?
1:13:30
Why are they doing that?
1:13:31
Is that a, you know, is that because the oxytocin is really kicking
1:13:34
in and they're really, you know.
1:13:35
So it is worth noting.
1:13:36
Yeah, it is worth noting.
1:13:38
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, oh, thank, I, I appreciate that.
1:13:40
But but I would say that after the 36th session, I would say that we had,
1:13:45
I have it noted, like, you know, we, we had some great, you know, sessions.
1:13:50
Like, he was consistent, but I didn't see any type of milestones
1:13:54
for a while, and I felt- Yeah.
1:13:59
And so, like, from the session 36 to session, I'll get to that one, but,
1:14:04
like, you know, it was session 36.
1:14:06
That was when, when was session 36?
1:14:08
Session 36 was in November.
1:14:11
So from November, it was getting cold, and our riding time reduced
1:14:16
a lot, but we still went to Handrick and Gitis for New Year's.
1:14:19
We did, like, an hour ride on a pony, and, you know, we didn't see any milestones.
1:14:25
All I, all we knew is, like, now we're, we're exhausted
1:14:28
with sleep d- sleep deprivation because Donatella's not sleeping.
1:14:31
'Cause the moment we moved to Germany, both boys were now in the
1:14:34
same room sharing a room, and we were starting to get deprived of sleep.
1:14:39
I hired a autism sleep coach.
1:14:41
She was amazing.
1:14:43
And I have that in my notes as where that fall fell in because I'm,
1:14:47
I'm also capturing data from this session, these sessions, but also
1:14:51
I'm trying to compare it with all the other sessions that capture data
1:14:55
and when we've put things together.
1:14:57
Because it is important, I feel, to, to show how this work was helping the
1:15:02
other work work and helping him sleep.
1:15:05
Yeah.
1:15:06
Yeah.
1:15:06
And then I, I would say that session 36, we did all, all that.
1:15:11
And then I said, "Okay, November is hitting."
1:15:14
Then February comes and I'm starting to lose hope.
1:15:19
I would, I would say, like, I wasn't losing hope in the Horse Boy, but
1:15:22
I was starting to wonder, is my son ever gonna get potty trained?
1:15:25
Is my son everâ¦
1:15:26
'Cause that, 'cause the reason why I was getting exhausted, because
1:15:28
in January of 2026, we started potty training Michelangelo.
1:15:34
So now I'm potty training two kids.
1:15:37
Now you're up to your elbows in it.
1:15:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:15:39
Yeah.
1:15:39
Yeah.
1:15:40
And I'm, and I'm dealing with him soiling him- So Donatello was, was
1:15:44
doing great, and then suddenly we reduced the amount of Horse Boy
1:15:47
sessions because of the schedule and the weather, and Donatello is now goingâ¦
1:15:54
He's soiling himself five to six times a day.
1:15:56
Mm.
1:15:56
And I was getting really embarrassed.
1:15:58
I was getting worried about our aide.
1:16:00
And they were fine.
1:16:01
And then we go on a trip in April for two weeks, for one week, and the
1:16:08
last week before the school starts, we work with Kira for a full week.
1:16:15
And so f- we we- we went to Portugal because you told us to go
1:16:19
to Portugal in the Algarve area.
1:16:22
Algarve?
1:16:23
Did I say that right?
1:16:24
Algarve.
1:16:24
Algarve.
1:16:25
Algar- Algarve.
1:16:27
And we loved it.
1:16:28
We loved it.
1:16:29
And this is when I learned quickly about environment how impactful that is for him.
1:16:36
We were at a place and, and I, and I, and I like to bring this up because I
1:16:42
was thinking that this was the right environment for my kid an all-inclusive
1:16:45
place, and it was, it wasâ¦
1:16:48
it had, it had a lot of space, and thisâ¦
1:16:51
It was a villa.
1:16:52
And all it did was that it freaked out Donatello because it was all concrete.
1:16:58
And he saw a pool, and he wanted to go to the pool, and he was just losing his mind.
1:17:03
New environment, everything.
1:17:05
He, he starts hitting himself.
1:17:08
And it's not like he's hitting, he's just slapping his hands on his knees.
1:17:11
And it was just extremely painful to see.
1:17:13
It was so scary.
1:17:15
'Cause the first time he had a tantrum ever was the day we moved to Germany, and
1:17:19
that's, that was the first major tantrum.
1:17:22
And then the next week, he had another tantrum where you were actually with
1:17:26
me 'cause he got out of his car seat.
1:17:28
And so I-
1:17:29
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he was just, he was just jet lagged and sleep deprived.
1:17:31
Yeah, yeah, at that mo- at that point.
1:17:32
Yeah.
1:17:32
But
1:17:32
Laila Rahmatian: yeah.
1:17:33
Yeah, but you, you helped calm me down 'cause I was freaking out.
1:17:37
Mm.
1:17:38
And and then he's having this in Portugal and I'm like, "Will we ever travel?
1:17:43
Will we ever get to- Have a life.
1:17:47
And and then we had some issues with the hotel, and we decided to switch
1:17:51
hotels, and we went to this hotel that we originally, o- originally
1:17:54
were gonna go to, but we decided not to because we thought this place
1:17:57
had more kiddie pools and whatnot.
1:17:59
But this hotel was right off the beach.
1:18:02
Mm.
1:18:02
And it had a v-- and it was a hotel room.
1:18:05
It was in multiple rooms.
1:18:07
And I real- we really quick- we quickly realized we need to be in a place where
1:18:11
there's lots of light and direct access to nature from a view that Donatello
1:18:15
can see, and that immediately gave him comfort that he was seeing us in the
1:18:20
same room, like two beds, four people, and a view of the pool and the ocean.
1:18:25
And I have photos of him just being so happy looking out to the pool.
1:18:30
And then we were at the pool and the beach for five days straight.
1:18:34
And I'm br- I'm getting to, I'm getting somewhere here because
1:18:37
I have it noted in my notes.
1:18:40
And then we get back, and so Donatello had spent five days being in the pool,
1:18:47
where in two days he figured out how to get across an Olympic-sized pool
1:18:50
by himself, that even other parents were freaking out thinking this kid is
1:18:54
gonna drown because he was by himself, which he wasn't, he was in floaties.
1:18:58
And then basically, then we get back and me and Kira, we did four sessions of
1:19:04
Horse Boy and just kept, kept him moving.
1:19:09
So we did like basically move method, and then we did Horse Boy
1:19:11
method, and then school starts.
1:19:14
And I was not having a good day that day.
1:19:17
I was just not having a good day.
1:19:18
It was a combination of, will this kid ever, like, get there?
1:19:24
And on April 16th, I went to s- pick up Donatello, and the assistant came
1:19:31
up to me, and she was very calm and g- and, and she said, "I just wanna let you
1:19:35
know, I don't want you to freak out."
1:19:37
And I was like, "Oh, shit, what happened?
1:19:38
What the fuck happened now?"
1:19:41
"I just wanna let you know, Donatello pooped in the potty,
1:19:45
not once, but three times today."
1:19:50
And I don't want you to say anything.
1:19:51
I don't want you to freak out.
1:19:53
I don't want you to scream.
1:19:54
I just wanna let you know- Oh, man â¦ that he did it.
1:19:57
He did it.
1:19:58
Rupert Isaacson: Hallelujah.
1:19:59
Laila Rahmatian: He did it.
1:20:00
And I
1:20:02
Rupert Isaacson: He pooped in the potty.
1:20:04
Laila Rahmatian: Potty.
1:20:05
In
1:20:05
Rupert Isaacson: the
1:20:06
Laila Rahmatian: potty.
1:20:07
Rupert Isaacson: In the potty.
1:20:08
Halepoolia, halepoolia, halepoolia.
1:20:09
Laila Rahmatian: Hallelujah.
1:20:11
So he pooped in the potty four times in a row that day.
1:20:15
I cried so hard, like it was the first time that he got
1:20:18
diagnosed, but in a happy way.
1:20:20
We, we ordered food.
1:20:22
I mean, my husband and I celebrated secretly and cried, but it was
1:20:25
e- it was exactly eight months to the day of when we started.
1:20:29
So it was April 15th.
1:20:31
We started on July 15th.
1:20:33
That was exactly eight months of working with you and doing g- all this.
1:20:38
And then after that, more things connected, and his teacher said
1:20:43
to me that when the child poops in the potty, other milestones
1:20:48
can start to, to pick up quickly.
1:20:50
Yeah.
1:20:50
And she was right â¦ it accelerates at that point, yeah.
1:20:52
Significantly.
1:20:53
And then on session 63 he s- he pointed and said, "That way," on the horse.
1:20:59
And then and then we had a very special session with Carla Brahms,
1:21:04
and it was on May 15th, the last day before Kira went to Spain.
1:21:09
And he was singing with us on the horse and moving his hands, and
1:21:14
Carla was getting teary-eyed, like, "This is such a beautiful moment."
1:21:18
And I, I just wanna also mention that we did work with another person.
1:21:23
Her name was Ava, and that was the first time that we did a session where Donatella
1:21:29
and Michelangelo got to do a Horse Boy Session, which I was impressed by, knowing
1:21:35
that you guys support siblings to join you guys because Michelangelo wasn't left out.
1:21:40
Yeah.
1:21:40
Was not left out.
1:21:42
Rupert Isaacson: Boy.
1:21:42
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:21:42
Yeah.
1:21:43
But yeah.
1:21:44
But no.
1:21:45
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:21:48
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:21:53
bit about the old master system.
1:21:56
of dressage training.
1:21:57
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:22:06
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:22:12
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:22:19
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:22:22
Intrigued?
1:22:23
Like to know more?
1:22:24
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:22:29
Check out the free introduction course.
1:22:31
Take it from there.
1:22:32
Laila Rahmatian: And then the last session we've done so far, and it was a huge
1:22:36
step in the potty training, where he, for the first time, he felt something.
1:22:40
He pulled his pants down, and he peed and pulled his pants up.
1:22:46
So I call it standing and peeing.
1:22:47
And that was like, oh, my gosh.
1:22:49
That's so nice and so easy.
1:22:51
So we still have a long ways to go, but 70 sessions within 10 to 11 months
1:22:59
I'm proud of that
1:23:02
Rupert Isaacson: Very.
1:23:02
And you know what, what I think is also worth pointing out is a lot of
1:23:08
people know that when I have families come, I always say, "I want you
1:23:12
to do a movement method training."
1:23:13
Yeah.
1:23:13
Because if you don't, then any progress that we make here with
1:23:18
the horses isn't supported at home.
1:23:21
Yeah.
1:23:21
And frankly, anything that we do is all right, but it's not gonna be as much as if
1:23:28
you have a 24/7 culture of this kind of-
1:23:30
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:23:31
Rupert Isaacson: neuroplasticity going on in the family at home.
1:23:34
And what happens when it's too icy, or this, or that, or you need
1:23:38
to go on holiday, or, or, or you need to know how to deliver this.
1:23:41
And you really took that to heart.
1:23:44
So when I said, "Make sure you get an apartment that opens onto a park-" Yeah.
1:23:50
"â¦ 'cause you're gonna be in the city."
1:23:51
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
1:23:51
But
1:23:52
Rupert Isaacson: these German cities have forests that come into-
1:23:54
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:23:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: get one where the kid can go straight out into the
1:23:57
forest, or straight out into- Yeah.
1:23:59
I'm so used to saying that to people, and they just don't listen.
1:24:02
You totally listened.
1:24:04
And then I'm so used to people coming up with 1,000 reasons why they can't
1:24:10
do the movement method training.
1:24:11
And frequently, after a certain number of weeks, I'll let them go, 'cause
1:24:15
I'll say, "You're, you're welcome to come back, but for now I just needâ¦
1:24:20
I have a certain number of hours I can work, and I want to work
1:24:23
with people that are gonna really do-" Yeah â¦ kind of what I did.
1:24:26
You totally went for that.
1:24:27
You went, you went, you did movement method one, two, and three, like, very
1:24:31
fast, and then you started applying it all at home, which meant that you
1:24:35
could then manage your other therapists really well, because you knew.
1:24:40
So let's say you have an ABA therapist.
1:24:41
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:24:42
Rupert Isaacson: You, you know how to say to that person, "Are you
1:24:45
prepared to work in the forest?
1:24:48
Are you-" Yeah "â¦ prepared to work in aâ¦
1:24:48
Here is the neuroscience of why that's important.
1:24:51
Mm-hmm.
1:24:51
Are you prepared to actually run after this kid through the trees?"
1:24:54
Yeah.
1:24:54
"Here is the neuroscience of why this is important."
1:24:57
You did all that, and then the trajectory that you just described was
1:25:04
exactly how it goes when it's optimal.
1:25:08
So you get early, big changes because the neurons just start firing, firing, firing.
1:25:14
Like, you know, there's Donatello- Yeah â¦ in the orchards around
1:25:16
us, and so there's reason to communicate, there's reason to speech.
1:25:20
He's got all this-
1:25:20
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:25:21
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: he's doing his gut bacteria.
1:25:22
He's doing everything.
1:25:24
And then this goes on to where, and then there's a plateau where
1:25:29
you think- Yeah â¦ "Is this it?"
1:25:31
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah, yeah.
1:25:31
Rupert Isaacson: And, and it's almost like they're getting ready.
1:25:34
They're getting ready.
1:25:35
Yes.
1:25:36
They're getting ready for the next one, and then they kind of go womp,
1:25:39
like you did with the toilet training.
1:25:40
And then what often happens, too, and you're, you're gonna notice this, you
1:25:43
probably are noticing this already, is that then as they start to go forward, you
1:25:48
usually know that the next leap is usually
1:25:55
Pre, there's something happens before the next leap forward, which is a backwards
1:26:00
thing, a slide backwards where you- Yeah
1:26:02
think, "Oh my God, they're losing this skill that they had."
1:26:05
And then you, you panic, panic, and then- But you keep it all going.
1:26:08
Yeah.
1:26:08
You keep it all going, all the movements- Yeah â¦ stuff, all the neuroplasticity.
1:26:11
And then it's like from here they go boom.
1:26:15
It's like they- That's right â¦ they come back on their heels, and then they jump.
1:26:20
And then after a while, after some years, you learn to have faith
1:26:24
in that cycle, in that process.
1:26:26
Laila Rahmatian: Yes,
1:26:26
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
1:26:27
It doesn't mean that you don't freak out a little bit every time they do
1:26:30
that little slide backwards, but you also learn that that little slide
1:26:35
backwards usually means there's gonna be a leap forward within- Yeah
1:26:39
usually within a fortnight.
1:26:41
Yeah â¦ and we've now seen this played out so often that we realize that this
1:26:45
is sort of how the brain goes with the kid, the brain and the nervous system.
1:26:51
Mm-hmm.
1:26:51
Provided you keep up all the supports at home, which you have really done.
1:26:56
And so I guess the next part of the conversation is logically
1:26:59
to ask you what's next.
1:27:00
So, you know, you c- you, you, you can bring us up to date with sort of where
1:27:04
Donatello is now, but I know that you're making interesting plans for next summer.
1:27:08
Yes.
1:27:09
Basically not unlike on what we did with Rowan in terms of making-
1:27:14
Yeah â¦ journeys of pilgrimages around healing, but more specifically
1:27:18
targeted, which is interesting.
1:27:20
And then where you see this going over the next few years.
1:27:24
So j- f- first question, where's Donatello now?
1:27:27
Just tell us
1:27:28
Laila Rahmatian: that.
1:27:28
Oh, Donatello is, is four.
1:27:31
When he was diagnosed at two, he, we worked with you at when he just
1:27:34
turned th- right, yeah, three.
1:27:37
Yeah, three going on four.
1:27:38
And so he's four, he's gonna be five soon, and we started school this week.
1:27:44
And where he is now is I already see a huge difference
1:27:48
in how he's diving into school.
1:27:52
His brother is now joining him in the school, and that's been really good for me
1:27:55
'cause I was in two different schools last year and driving, like, five hours a day.
1:28:01
And that wasn't good for Donatello.
1:28:02
So he's doing really, really well.
1:28:04
Since, since those sessions in July, we, we just didn't move him at this entire
1:28:10
summer, and we did a lot of nature.
1:28:12
We dived into nature.
1:28:13
I took your recommendation, you know, getting into nature.
1:28:16
Because the place we got, we booked it.
1:28:19
We, we, we got it right after you said nature, and we told our agent a
1:28:23
place of nature, and she said, "Okay, I have this place and this place.
1:28:26
This one has nature."
1:28:27
And I- when we went there, and there was three parks around.
1:28:31
And that has been great for us to just get out and not have to drive.
1:28:35
And that sum- and this summer we just took advantage of
1:28:38
being in the water, the stream.
1:28:40
And as of July 1st, Donatello is now self-initiating going
1:28:46
And that has been huge.
1:28:49
Michael and- Where's he at verbal now?
1:28:51
His verbal, he's now saying four-word sentences.
1:28:55
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
1:28:56
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:28:56
So he went from saying, "Up, down," to, "I want more blueberries."
1:29:05
So he is pointing.
1:29:07
I am now trying to create an environment through theâ¦
1:29:11
'Cause I'm looking to get- I'm going to get him in my Movement
1:29:14
Method evaluations, 'cause I did Movement Method one, two online- Yeah
1:29:18
and then I did it in person with Andre- So you're gonna be a Movement Methodist now.
1:29:22
I'm go- I guess I am.
1:29:25
I am.
1:29:25
I am.
1:29:26
Yeah.
1:29:26
And-
1:29:26
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's the logical thing, 'cause you're gonna- Oh,
1:29:27
yes â¦ do your whole life doing Movement Method, so you might as well you might
1:29:31
Laila Rahmatian: as
1:29:31
Rupert Isaacson: well- Yes â¦ become a practitioner as well as just
1:29:33
a, a receiver of services.
1:29:35
You become a service provider, not just a service user.
1:29:38
Yeah, yeah.
1:29:40
Laila Rahmatian: And it's, again, the same thing that you said in the
1:29:42
beginning, like, if you learn this method y- you said something to me in
1:29:46
our first consultation that you can be two different types of professionals.
1:29:49
One where you're paying a professional, you're a professional payer, or
1:29:54
you're a professional getting paid.
1:29:56
And I wasâ¦
1:29:57
That really resonated with me.
1:29:59
I was like, "You know, I don't wanna do the first option.
1:30:01
I want the second option."
1:30:02
But also have that balance altogether.
1:30:05
So in the summer we went to this place called Schloss Freudenberg.
1:30:07
I watched your videos on YouTube.
1:30:09
I really like your YouTube channel, that your videos really break things down.
1:30:14
And it's really is helpful to kinda go- go off of that.
1:30:17
So I watched your, your Movement Method in action on Schloss Freudenberg, and we
1:30:21
went every Friday, and that was, like, a new routine for us, and that was good.
1:30:25
Then we went to the parks- Schloss Freudenberg, by
1:30:27
Rupert Isaacson: the way, it's like a, an interactive- Oh, yes
1:30:30
museum in an old stately home outside Wiesbaden in Germany.
1:30:35
Yeah.
1:30:36
And they've taken the park and the forest and put all of these amazing
1:30:39
sensory interactive things in
1:30:41
Laila Rahmatian: it.
1:30:41
Oh, yes.
1:30:42
Rupert Isaacson: And then inside the old building as well.
1:30:44
It's like- movement method on steroids.
1:30:49
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:30:50
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it, it's an extraordinary place, so if
1:30:52
anyone's in Germany, you should check out Schloss Freudenberg.
1:30:54
We'll, we'll put a thing in the show notes, yeah.
1:30:56
Oh, sh- And also, by the way, Henrik and Gitty up in- Yes â¦ Munster, and Karla
1:31:01
down in Heidelberg, who she just referred to, and Eva- Yeah â¦ down in Stuttgart.
1:31:06
These are all very, very good profe- providers of Horse Boy-
1:31:09
Yeah â¦ Movement Method, yeah, yeah.
1:31:09
Indeed.
1:31:11
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:31:11
And, and I, and I, I have to say this while we're talking about these places.
1:31:16
I am trying to also shape my travels to where Horse Boy Movement Method
1:31:21
is, and we can definitely talk about that more because I'm an expat.
1:31:25
I'm here toâ¦
1:31:28
I'm we literally feel like we moved here to work with you and this tribe.
1:31:31
I know my husband's job was the reason that was the start of the
1:31:34
conversation, but it really was, the deciding factor was to move
1:31:38
here to work with you and your team.
1:31:39
Rupert Isaacson: So it's a wonderful thing too that the Frankfurt International
1:31:42
School where you're sending Donatello, it happens to have quite a lot of people
1:31:48
who've been trained in movement method.
1:31:50
Mm-hmm.
1:31:50
So they're very familiar with that, and they have an outdoor classroom
1:31:54
and, you know, a lot of- Yes â¦ and they take the kids to the forest,
1:31:57
and there's a, there's a lot of really good resources there for that.
1:31:59
But,
1:32:00
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes
1:32:01
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: so tell us, tell us also your plans for next summer
1:32:05
because I think this is really-
1:32:07
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:32:08
Rupert Isaacson: a useful thing for other autism parents to think
1:32:10
about- Uh-huh â¦ how you might begin to organize your travel.
1:32:14
Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely.
1:32:15
Well, I, I, how I saw the benefit of being in places where there is that
1:32:21
sensory component and then going to see Hendrik and Gideon, just makingâ¦
1:32:25
I call it Horse Boy adventure trips is, you know how people go to Disney
1:32:29
World and they're like, "Oh, I'm going to Disney," like there's six places.
1:32:33
I'm like thinking this is like our version of doing it, but it's so
1:32:36
much more fun because it's not.
1:32:38
It's just much more fun.
1:32:40
And so what I'm planning on doing, and I'm hoping this works out, is
1:32:43
that I want to tr- plan my trips around places that there is Horse Boy.
1:32:49
And for next summer, I am hoping, if this works out, that I could do something
1:32:57
like you did in Mongolia and in these other countries where you did healing,
1:33:01
but to do it in a Horse Boy style.
1:33:04
Doing it a Horse Boy pilgrimage where we stay- Where you go from
1:33:07
Horse Boy place to Horse Boy place.
1:33:09
Yes.
1:33:09
J- because we have e- we will have eight weeks off.
1:33:12
Great idea.
1:33:13
And, and I, I just don't know how it's gonna work out, but I wanna start
1:33:17
planning now because it would be so cool to just experience that, and then the
1:33:24
transition won't be as difficult because it's in nature, and I can get support.
1:33:29
'Cause all
1:33:29
Rupert Isaacson: the people know exactly what to do.
1:33:31
Yeah, yeah.
1:33:31
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:33:32
So you- And I just don't know if anyone else has done that, and that's kind of why
1:33:36
I'm thinking like, "Okay, so there's so many of these different Horse Boy places.
1:33:39
Is there like a Horse Boy travel agency or a Horse Boy travel support system here?"
1:33:45
Not yet.
1:33:45
Not yet.
1:33:45
So I'm- Yeah â¦ I'm happy to be a guinea pig, honestly, Rupert, but I loveâ¦
1:33:50
I, I'm, I just know that I need that tribe.
1:33:53
It's just good for me.
1:33:54
It, it's been good for me, and that's one thing I want parents to know,
1:33:58
and I, I feel complied to share this because I don't know of any other
1:34:03
autism parent that's going through these support systems that are feeling
1:34:07
good while helping their child.
1:34:09
It's like they put their child away, they get an hour break, they doom
1:34:13
scroll, they s- take a nap, but they don't know how to work with their child.
1:34:17
And one thing that I am doing is I'm trying to create this environment in
1:34:20
my house that's prompting for speech, and I do plan on getting my movement
1:34:23
method evaluations, But I h- I have to think that seeing some schools that are
1:34:28
applying this method has been helping me to have that conversational lingo.
1:34:33
And I know a lot of schools don't have that lingo yet, but I'm really scared to
1:34:39
go back to Indiana and not have this, and I'm hoping, which you and I have worked
1:34:45
on, trying to bring that to Indiana and with the people that are interested in it.
1:34:50
But yes, t- going back to the summer, I'm hoping to create a horse boy
1:34:55
pilgrimage, and I'm gonna come up with a better name, like a horse boy trip or-
1:35:00
Rupert Isaacson: I think what pilgrimage is a great, is, is great
1:35:01
because I, I tell you why- Pilgrimage
1:35:03
pilgrimage is so great.
1:35:04
Laila Rahmatian: Okay, tell me.
1:35:05
Rupert Isaacson: The, the concept of pilgrimage has been, of the
1:35:08
sacred journey, has been there since the dawn of humanity.
1:35:14
Laila Rahmatian: Okay.
1:35:14
Rupert Isaacson: The idea that you move your ass if you want to move your
1:35:20
spiritual and internal state somehow.
1:35:22
You actually physically move your body and you go to, you, you sort of say
1:35:27
to the universe, "I will expend the physical energy to visit sacred sites."
1:35:33
This is exactly what I did with Rowan, going looking for healers, but people
1:35:36
do this whether they go to Lourdes, v- And, but w- where I think that it works
1:35:42
and where it doesn't work is when one makes a sacred journey like that to a
1:35:48
sacred- Okay â¦ nature site or sacred spiritual site or whatever, which people
1:35:52
do in all religions and all types of spirituality, and it's, it's always there.
1:35:57
If you go with the attachment, this is only worth it if I get the
1:36:06
outcome that I am- Oh â¦ make, trying to make a bargain with God.
1:36:12
You know, I will do this if you give me this, God.
1:36:15
It's not the way to do it.
1:36:17
The only way to do it, and this is tough, but this is part of the spiritual process,
1:36:22
is to say, "I will do this anyway."
1:36:26
Yes.
1:36:26
Because it has intrinsic value as its own journey of interest and development
1:36:35
for myself and my child and curiosity and to a new place and new people and
1:36:42
I will do it whether it works or not.
1:36:47
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:36:47
I
1:36:48
Rupert Isaacson: will do it.
1:36:48
If it works, fantastic.
1:36:51
If I get the healing I'm looking for or the results I'm looking for.
1:36:55
If it doesn't work to that degree, fantastic.
1:37:00
I still made this amazing journey.
1:37:02
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
1:37:02
Rupert Isaacson: And it was the dilemma in front of me, in this case the autism, that
1:37:07
compelled me to make this amazing journey.
1:37:10
That still has enormous validity.
1:37:12
So that is the spirit one has to do it in.
1:37:15
Okay.
1:37:15
And then that sort of takes away the blockages that might-
1:37:20
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:37:21
Rupert Isaacson: stand between The internal blockages that might stand
1:37:25
between someone getting actually the outcome that they want to know, and
1:37:29
then the outcome that they want might come in a way that is unexpected.
1:37:32
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:37:33
Rupert Isaacson: But one has to go in a little bit with that cultivated
1:37:36
non-attachment, which is not easy.
1:37:38
Yeah
1:37:38
and one has toâ¦
1:37:39
It means you are gonna fall into attachment sometimes, but
1:37:41
then when you notice that you're there, you think, "Ooh, hold on.
1:37:44
Do I really wanna be here, or do I actually want to notice how cool these
1:37:48
mountains are that I'm driving through?"
1:37:49
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:37:50
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
1:37:51
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:37:51
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, you're gonna make this journey and-
1:37:53
Yeah â¦ go all these journeys.
1:37:54
And as far as I know, you said you were gonna do it in the UK where between
1:37:58
the different Horse Boy centers there.
1:38:00
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:38:00
I'm, I'm looking at your recommendations you know, 'cause you're my mentor,
1:38:03
you're my friend, I trust you.
1:38:05
But also every single person that you have connected me with has just been amazing.
1:38:14
Yeah, the Horse Boy network is incredible.
1:38:15
Not just â¦ I, I just can't get over how amazing they are.
1:38:20
No drama, no disrespect, everyone's understanding, everyone's doing
1:38:25
their th- their, their style of practice their own way.
1:38:27
I mean, I just love it.
1:38:29
I want to be a part of it.
1:38:30
And I've, I also love that there's no judgment that I
1:38:34
don't know how to ride yet.
1:38:36
And I- â¦ I want to ride.
1:38:39
But again- As if there's any
1:38:40
Rupert Isaacson: judgment on that.
1:38:41
Yeah
1:38:41
â¦ Laila Rahmatian: I know.
1:38:42
I know.
1:38:42
But it's- I'm com- That would be insane â¦ you have to understand,
1:38:45
Rupert, you have to understand, I'm coming from a very competitive environment.
1:38:49
I have been in competitive environments, you know, with sports,
1:38:53
with career, and, and autism, and being a mother, and all that.
1:38:59
Like, you're always being told, like, "You've got to do
1:39:01
this, you've got to do that."
1:39:02
And here it's like, "You're doing great.
1:39:04
You're doing a great job."
1:39:05
And-
1:39:06
Rupert Isaacson: You are doing a great job.
1:39:07
Yeah.
1:39:09
You are.
1:39:09
You are doing a great job.
1:39:12
There's- I appreciate that â¦ no question that you're doing a
1:39:15
Laila Rahmatian: great job.
1:39:15
Thank you.
1:39:16
Rupert Isaacson: And all of the, all of the
1:39:19
Any, any practitioner knows that one's success with a child only
1:39:32
goes as far as the partnership and support with the family.
1:39:39
My efforts are only as good as y- the efforts that you put in.
1:39:43
My efforts complement your efforts, but you're the one who
1:39:46
actually lives with that child.
1:39:49
So-
1:39:52
It, it's like when I write a book, I know that the book only will be good
1:39:58
if the publisher and the editor and the writer, which would be me, all
1:40:06
have a symbiotic relationship in which-
1:40:08
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:40:09
Rupert Isaacson: we're in service to the story.
1:40:11
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:40:12
Rupert Isaacson: And if we can have that
1:40:18
As the main thing, follow the child, in this case is follow the story Yeah
1:40:22
â¦ then it will probably be pretty good.
1:40:25
But if we, if one of us has an agenda that is outside of that, it,
1:40:30
the quality will just not be there.
1:40:32
And-
1:40:33
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:40:34
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I've seen this time and again.
1:40:35
So when I say you're doing an amazing job th- that data which you were so kind to
1:40:40
share with us and that chronology of, of development with Donatello I just want
1:40:47
to be clear that this is not just because the practitioners involved were good.
1:40:54
It was because you Made it possible for the practitioners
1:41:01
to have a base to work from.
1:41:03
This is crucial.
1:41:05
And as y- you know, as y- y- you gonna move into, you know, the
1:41:10
professional side of this and become a practitioner, you'll very quickly see
1:41:16
how, how far or how far you don't get- Yeah â¦ is entirely the family culture.
1:41:23
Laila Rahmatian: It, I agree with you on that.
1:41:25
I appreciate you saying that.
1:41:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:41:27
And I- It's
1:41:28
Laila Rahmatian: hard to hear that feedback too, so.
1:41:29
Rupert Isaacson: And a shout-out to, to Andrew, to your
1:41:31
husband, 'cause he's top-notch.
1:41:33
And he isn't just a pa- you know, a dude who goes out there to
1:41:38
make the money to make it happen.
1:41:40
He's also completely reorganized his life to follow the child.
1:41:47
Laila Rahmatian: He's so giving.
1:41:48
He is.
1:41:49
He drops everything- Yeah â¦ to helps me out, and he does a lot that-
1:41:52
Rupert Isaacson: He's, he's, he's a great man.
1:41:54
He's a great man.
1:41:54
He is.
1:41:55
And, you know, all of these things have to, you know, if, if, if
1:42:00
one is a single parent, then the question is well, who is the tribe?
1:42:04
Who is the extended family unit, even if they're not blood
1:42:08
relatives, around this child?
1:42:11
But we're tribal social apes who are supposed to live
1:42:15
in nature, foraging- Mm-hmm
1:42:16
hunting, and gathering.
1:42:17
The closer we live to that, the better we'll do.
1:42:24
Yeah.
1:42:24
And the further we get from it, the worse we'll do, period.
1:42:27
Laila Rahmatian: Absolutely.
1:42:28
Yeah.
1:42:28
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, take a fish out of water, blah, blah.
1:42:32
So with the, the, the, the practitioners you're looking at, I
1:42:35
know in the UK to do this effectively sacred journey, you're looking at-
1:42:40
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:42:41
Rupert Isaacson: Alex in Alex Northover at- Yeah â¦ Making Momentum in Cheshire.
1:42:46
She's very good- I'm getting- â¦ I know
1:42:48
â¦ Laila Rahmatian: yeah, Making Momentum.
1:42:50
The, the names you gave me, I'm looking at them.
1:42:52
You were, you did a map.
1:42:54
Yes â¦ I have the map here.
1:42:57
You made a
1:42:58
Rupert Isaacson: map.
1:42:58
I think probably Nicole Gillard.
1:42:59
Nicole Gillard down
1:42:59
Laila Rahmatian: in- I, I think so-
1:43:01
Somerset
1:43:01
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but,
1:43:02
Laila Rahmatian: but to the- At
1:43:02
Rupert Isaacson: Move the Mind.
1:43:03
She's amazing
1:43:04
â¦ Laila Rahmatian: you, you have given me some â¦ You gave me a
1:43:07
map, and I'm trying to- Nicola
1:43:08
Rupert Isaacson: Hepburn in Warwickshire.
1:43:09
Yeah.
1:43:10
She's amazing.
1:43:11
She- Equine Learning is her place.
1:43:13
Yeah.
1:43:13
Laila Rahmatian: And you mentioned Ireland as well, and I think
1:43:15
you also mentioned Scotland.
1:43:16
Indeed.
1:43:16
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:43:16
So I'm look- Horse Manage UK-
1:43:17
Laila Rahmatian: I'm looking at-
1:43:17
in
1:43:18
Rupert Isaacson: Scotland by Aberdeen.
1:43:20
Ireland is a plethora of amazing people.
1:43:22
Yeah.
1:43:23
Liskenard, David Doyle's place down in Limerick.
1:43:25
Yes.
1:43:25
Stewart's Care Terry Brosnan outside, and Child Vision in Dublin and others.
1:43:31
Yeah, no.
1:43:32
There, there's a- There's a lot to choose from, and, You've
1:43:35
Laila Rahmatian: done a lot.
1:43:36
You've done a lot, Rupert.
1:43:38
I'm so proud of you for what
1:43:40
Rupert Isaacson: you've done.
1:43:41
I can'tâ¦
1:43:41
I- you're kind, and thank you.
1:43:44
I, I can't take credit for these people.
1:43:46
These people would have been awesome if they had never met me.
1:43:50
They were awesome before they met me, and they're awesome, you know.
1:43:54
Yeah.
1:43:54
They're just awesome.
1:43:56
It's just that we are colleagues and we share- Yeah
1:43:59
a common vision.
1:43:59
Yeah, yeah.
1:44:00
Laila Rahmatian: But you have done a great job, and I want you to alsoâ¦
1:44:03
I wanna give you something and, and tell you that- You are a
1:44:10
messenger, and you did a great job
1:44:13
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.
1:44:14
Laila Rahmatian: I'm proud
1:44:14
Rupert Isaacson: of you I guess the one that we really should give the shout-out
1:44:16
to here is Rowan, is Scub, because-
1:44:19
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:44:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: without him, none of this would be here
1:44:22
Laila Rahmatian: No.
1:44:23
Rupert Isaacson: He is my continual mentor, because he's now- Yes â¦ 24,
1:44:27
and each new phase of life he gets to, I have to rethink my game.
1:44:32
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:44:32
And
1:44:32
Rupert Isaacson: say, "Okay, well, I know how to work with a seven-year-old.
1:44:34
Okay, now I know how to work with a 13-year-old.
1:44:37
Okay, now I knowâ¦"
1:44:38
Wow.
1:44:38
"Ooh, now you're- Yeah â¦ 25.
1:44:40
Okay."
1:44:41
Yes.
1:44:42
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:44:42
Yes
1:44:43
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah, and- And
1:44:43
and it gets more complex, not less.
1:44:45
As it should, yeah.
1:44:47
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:44:48
Yeah.
1:44:49
But no, I mean, you're humble and you're very kind, and Iâ¦
1:44:55
You've changed my life.
1:44:56
You've made a huge impact in my life, and in my, our lives.
1:45:00
And I just want, I want more people to know about your work, and I wantâ¦
1:45:06
I mean, I have a podcast now, and I'm, I'm, I've changed the podcast to now
1:45:10
document this journey for Donatello.
1:45:12
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do what you're doing, but my way,
1:45:16
on, instead of writing the book, I'm gonna do it through a podcast.
1:45:19
Yeah.
1:45:19
And I'm excited to have you on the show and all the other people that
1:45:23
are on my team that have been helping me with Donatello, because I do feel
1:45:26
like- Yeah â¦ this is something that people need to know about.
1:45:30
100%.
1:45:30
And I'm just so shocked that I stumbled upon it,
1:45:35
Rupert Isaacson: so what, as you know, when we train people in our methods,
1:45:40
they go off and do it their way There's a, there's a standard of horse care,
1:45:46
and - training, and there's a standard of follow the child and understanding
1:45:49
of neuroscience and environment- Yeah
1:45:51
that we need to see.
1:45:53
But in terms of the application of the toolbox that we give people, the
1:45:58
last thing we want to do is get in the way of their creativity, and the
1:46:02
last thing we want to do- Yeah â¦ is get in the way of their business.
1:46:05
But like you, I do know what you're saying.
1:46:07
If, if when my son was diagnosed, if there had been Horse Boy, if
1:46:14
there had been Movement Method- Yeah â¦ man, I would've jumped on it.
1:46:18
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:46:18
Yes.
1:46:19
And that's what I'm saying is like, okay, maybe you don't wanna
1:46:21
franchise, but that- that's whyâ¦
1:46:23
So my podcast, Mm-hmm
1:46:25
um, is called- Yeah, letting
1:46:25
Rupert Isaacson: people know is a fantastic idea.
1:46:27
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:46:27
Yeah, I, I mean, like, 'cause Iâ¦
1:46:29
My podcast is called Launching Forward Autism, and I will beâ¦
1:46:34
You know, I just startâ¦
1:46:35
I just, I just went public last December.
1:46:38
You really motivated me to share my story and go public.
1:46:41
We actually told everybody during Christmas that Donatella has
1:46:43
autism and we're doing this.
1:46:46
I didn't want to tell people in the begi- because I didn't want people to have
1:46:49
different suggestions or recommendations.
1:46:51
Mm-hmm.
1:46:52
But I just feel like working, wanting to do this work, and I
1:46:58
don't wanna keep it a secret.
1:47:00
I want to tell people about it because there were, like, four
1:47:04
families that have come up to me and asking me what is it I'm doing.
1:47:07
And I'm like, "Yeah, you haven't heard of it, have you?"
1:47:10
And like, "No, I haven't."
1:47:11
And I would love it to make it my mission now, 'cause, you
1:47:16
know, I'm all about mission.
1:47:17
Going from the space industry now to go into the autism industry,
1:47:21
this is my, my miss- is now my mission is to provide options than
1:47:25
rather than just one protocol, but to be having five protocol options.
1:47:29
When a parent finds out their child has autism, it'd be nice to have,
1:47:33
"These are the options for you."
1:47:36
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:47:36
And, and an expectation, therefore, of a good outcome.
1:47:40
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:47:40
Rupert Isaacson: You know, when, when the doctors presented me with
1:47:45
a diagnosis, they also presented it in a very negative light.
1:47:49
Yes.
1:47:50
And I remember thinking-
1:47:53
I don't believe that.
1:47:55
I believe that it could be that way-
1:47:58
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:47:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but I don't believe it has to be that way.
1:48:01
Yeah.
1:48:01
And I do know that this doctor who's talking to me is not an autism parent.
1:48:06
I need to go find where those autism parents are that have had- Yes â¦ a good
1:48:12
outcome, and I need to know where the autistic people are who started life where
1:48:18
my son was, who have had a good outcome.
1:48:21
Yeah.
1:48:22
And that's how I found my way to Temple Grandin.
1:48:24
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:48:25
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you know, so it, there is such a good message out
1:48:29
there, and it's not being delivered.
1:48:33
But what it does require And it is true that not every family wants to do this.
1:48:42
It does require the kind of buy-in and cultural shift of the family life towards
1:48:48
nature and follow the child- Mm-hmm
1:48:52
that you've done.
1:48:54
Because y- y- you know, that wasn't your upbringing.
1:48:55
You grew up in the suburbs of Houston.
1:48:57
You know, I was the one I'd say, "Hey, no, look, get the apartment
1:49:02
where you can walk directly out to the stream, to the forest."
1:49:08
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:49:08
Rupert Isaacson: If you can't have one directly, the minimum distance-
1:49:13
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:49:13
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because you're gonna need to be in there hours a
1:49:16
day, and you're gonna have to- Yeah
1:49:17
tell all your other therapists and practitioners to be in there hours a day.
1:49:22
And if they don't wanna be in there hours a day, keep interviewing
1:49:25
until you find the one that does.
1:49:28
You know, not everybody wants to do that.
1:49:30
Some people just, you know, for perhaps very good reasons, they're,
1:49:33
they're exhausted or whatever- Yeah
1:49:35
just wanna say, "I wanna drop my kid off at therapy, pick him up."
1:49:38
Theâ¦
1:49:39
And although I can understand it and I can empathize with it, it won't work.
1:49:44
There has to be this-
1:49:45
Laila Rahmatian: I, yeah
1:49:46
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you have, one has to give one's life over to it.
1:49:50
Yeah.
1:49:50
But the thing is, what I always say is you get-- it's gonna
1:49:51
take over your life anyway.
1:49:53
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:49:54
I know,
1:49:54
Rupert Isaacson: and I had to- So if you were facing the ocean, you know.
1:49:57
Laila Rahmatian: Well, Rupert, I have to disagree.
1:49:58
I cannot empathize with those people that don't wanna do that.
1:50:02
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
1:50:03
Laila Rahmatian: I'm sorry, I don't
1:50:04
Rupert Isaacson: empathize.
1:50:04
People can have a thousand reasons and, and you know, they
1:50:06
may not have the resources.
1:50:07
And by the resources, I don't mean financial, I mean internal.
1:50:09
Laila Rahmatian: That, okay, then I can empathize
1:50:12
Rupert Isaacson: with them.
1:50:12
That's for sure â¦ you know, there can be, there can be reasons.
1:50:14
But-
1:50:14
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:50:15
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: theâ¦
1:50:16
And you know, sometimes they're not right for it now, but maybe-
1:50:20
Laila Rahmatian: Okay
1:50:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: they develop.
1:50:21
Because the, the other thing too is I know you've seen this in yourself.
1:50:24
We talk so much about the kid and h- and how one's children are going to develop
1:50:30
their brains in these environments- Mm-hmm
1:50:33
that we create with what we do, but it's free out there.
1:50:37
It's called nature.
1:50:37
It's called Planet Earth.
1:50:38
Laila Rahmatian: Yes.
1:50:39
Rupert Isaacson: But what also happens, and you've seen this in yourself,
1:50:46
is your own brain structure changes.
1:50:47
Your own nervous system changes.
1:50:50
You f- you get happier, you get cleverer, because- Mm-hmm â¦ you get
1:50:54
more neurons, because you're in BDNF.
1:50:56
Mm-hmm.
1:50:57
And you you just-
1:51:03
enter a whole other frame of being, which is actually much,
1:51:07
which is mental healthâ¦
1:51:09
So, yeah, the, this, th- this is what I oftenâ¦
1:51:11
I told you this at the
1:51:15
beginning.
1:51:16
Yes.
1:51:16
Your own quality of life will massively improve-
1:51:22
Laila Rahmatian: Yes
1:51:22
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: if you dive into what is required in terms of the interaction
1:51:27
with nature and the, then the people you'll meet and the tribe you'll-
1:51:32
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:51:33
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: cultivate and all of this.
1:51:35
That right now, you know, when we first met, you're
1:51:37
isolated, you're afraid- Mm-hmm
1:51:39
you're unsupported, and your brain- Yeah â¦ your e- endocrine system
1:51:45
and your nervous system and your emotional is not doing so good.
1:51:49
Yeah â¦ and remember I said you'll look up six months into this and go,
1:51:54
"I've spent more time in the forest.
1:51:56
I've spent more time around animals.
1:51:58
I've met more cool people."
1:52:00
Yes.
1:52:00
"I now know what that type of bird is.
1:52:02
I now know what that type of tree is."
1:52:04
Yes.
1:52:05
"I now have all these different resources, which I didn't really have before."
1:52:09
Yeah.
1:52:10
"And I myself get that nature time."
1:52:11
So you know, it, the, the benefits are actually for the whole family.
1:52:17
Mm-hmm.
1:52:17
But it can be hard to see that at the beginning.
1:52:19
Yeah.
1:52:20
Laila Rahmatian: E- yeah, and it, and I would say that I didn't, I wasn'tâ¦
1:52:24
Personally, I was, I took it all in, and it took, like, that meet, that
1:52:28
first meeting that I c- that I had with you, it took me, like, five months.
1:52:32
Like, you gave an as- gave me that assignment, and it took
1:52:34
me five months to fulfill it.
1:52:37
Rupert Isaacson: Which is actually pretty
1:52:37
Laila Rahmatian: good.
1:52:38
I, I-
1:52:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but-
1:52:39
Laila Rahmatian: Okay.
1:52:39
No, but I'm ha- I'm happy I did it because it gave me so much
1:52:42
motivation, and I'm very grateful.
1:52:46
Like, I just, I'm just so grateful how we met.
1:52:51
I'm so grateful.
1:52:53
I just can't get over how grateful I am
1:52:55
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm, I'm, I'm grateful back.
1:52:57
I'm grateful to you for embarking on this journey, and I'm grateful to allâ¦
1:53:04
just a shout-out to all those Horse Boy Movement practitioners out there.
1:53:09
You've mentioned quite a few of them, 'cause I put you-
1:53:11
Mm-hmm â¦ in touch with many.
1:53:13
And you've- Oh, yeah â¦ you've gone and checked them all out, and- I
1:53:17
love it â¦ let Portello and yourself benefit from their amazing universes.
1:53:21
But who are the people that we've talked about just in this podcast?
1:53:24
We've talked about Henrik and Gitty- Yeah â¦ Berkhoff, who run Green Care Farm-
1:53:29
Laila Rahmatian: yes
1:53:29
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in Arlen, near MÃ¼nster in Germany.
1:53:32
Mm-hmm.
1:53:32
We've talked about Carla Brahms, who runs- Yes â¦ Wellenreiter
1:53:36
WaveRider in- Yes â¦ heidelberg.
1:53:38
Mm-hmm.
1:53:38
We've talked about in the UK Alex, Dr.
1:53:39
Alex Northover- Yes â¦ w- who runs Making Momentum in Cheshire.
1:53:44
We talked about Nicole Gillard, who runs- Yes â¦ move the Mind in Somerset.
1:53:49
We've talked about- Wow â¦ Nicola Hepburn, who runs Equine Learning near
1:53:53
Stratford-on-Avon in the Midlands.
1:53:56
We've talked about David Doyle, who- Yes
1:53:59
runs Liskinick Farm in Ireland.
1:54:02
Or actually- Yeah â¦ he's officially retired, but he's still in the-
1:54:05
Laila Rahmatian: Are you serious or no?
1:54:06
Well,
1:54:06
Rupert Isaacson: I say officially retired.
1:54:08
Oh.
1:54:08
And who's now just opened up a new Horse Boy center in, in County
1:54:11
Cork- Yes â¦ called Can Turk.
1:54:13
We've talked about Terry Brosnan in Ireland- Yes
1:54:16
at Stuart's Care in Meath.
1:54:17
Yes.
1:54:18
We've talked about Lucy Dillon.
1:54:19
Laila Rahmatian: Joelle.
1:54:20
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, w- not yet, we haven't.
1:54:22
So Lucy Dillon- We gotta keep going.
1:54:24
Lucy Dillon â¦ who runs Child Vision in Dublin.
1:54:26
And Joelle Dunlap, the amazing Joelle Dunlap in in San
1:54:30
Francisco Square Peg Foundation.
1:54:32
And these are just some.
1:54:35
Oh, yeah.
1:54:35
But I just wanna, I wanna tell you guys, I stand in awe of your awesomeness
1:54:48
As practitioners and I, so you talked about gratitude.
1:54:51
I'm just, I'm very grateful to be involved in this-
1:54:53
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah
1:54:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: too.
1:54:55
Laila Rahmatian: It's, it's m- we also, did I mention these people?
1:54:58
But I spoke to them Cheryl Barto and Megan McGavern.
1:55:01
Rupert Isaacson: Cheryl Barto of Smiling Goat Ranch on the western
1:55:05
slope- â¦ of the Rocky Mountains.
1:55:06
Smiling Goat Ranch.
1:55:07
Autism mom.
1:55:07
Yeah.
1:55:08
Amazing practitioner.
1:55:09
Yes, Dr.
1:55:10
Megan McGavern, another autism mom- Yeah â¦ who runs CHATS, Chats â¦ Cold Horse and
1:55:15
Autism, Yeah â¦ Station in Virginia.
1:55:19
Who runs our neuroscience biannual conference- Mm-hmm â¦ at the University
1:55:23
Eastern Virginia Medical School.
1:55:24
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm.
1:55:25
Rupert Isaacson: But also has an incredible v- yeah, w- h- I
1:55:28
can't believe in some ways- I
1:55:29
Laila Rahmatian: know
1:55:30
Rupert Isaacson: it's playing out It's unbelievable â¦ these people.
1:55:31
Kez, Dr.
1:55:32
Kez Sullivan, who does all the-
1:55:34
Laila Rahmatian: Mm-hmm
1:55:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: the research and puts together all, all the data- Yes â¦ for
1:55:38
us, and, and it, it, it's incredible.
1:55:39
It's incredible.
1:55:40
Laila Rahmatian: And then another person that really validated you
1:55:43
and your identity is Catherine from, Oh, Catherine Griffin
1:55:47
One Acre Farm.
1:55:49
She, she was the one- Is One Acre Farm- I, I met her- â¦ in Houston.
1:55:51
Yeah.
1:55:51
Yes.
1:55:52
Yes, yes.
1:55:53
'Cause when I met you- Movement Method masterpiece, yeah.
1:55:57
Oh, yeah.
1:55:57
I mean, it's, it is, I will say I do, I like moving fast, and I move quickly.
1:56:02
But this is my son, and yeah, two weeks after I met you, I
1:56:07
was like, "So who do you know?
1:56:10
I'm gonna go to Houston."
1:56:11
Like, "You say you have a tribe," and that was the first person you re- referred me
1:56:14
to, and she was speaking so highly of you.
1:56:17
She's like, "He's great."
1:56:18
I was like, "Is this, is, is he legit?"
1:56:20
Like, "Yes, this is the guy," and everything.
1:56:22
But to me, mo- most importantly, it's like that this, it was
1:56:25
just too good to be true.
1:56:27
It was where my, my confirmation, I was like, "This is all too good to be true."
1:56:31
And I personally feel like I feel obligated that you giving me all
1:56:37
this infor- all this value and support, I feel obligated to share
1:56:40
it and give it back to other people because they need to know this.
1:56:45
Rupert Isaacson: People need it.
1:56:45
People need it.
1:56:45
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:56:46
Rupert Isaacson: And,
1:56:46
Laila Rahmatian: They do â¦ I'm
1:56:47
Rupert Isaacson: really intrigued to see what will be the practice, the Movement
1:56:51
Method practice that you will create.
1:56:54
And- Thank you â¦ then I'll be the one saying, "You know what?
1:56:57
Go to Layla."
1:56:59
Yeah.
1:56:59
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:56:59
Rupert Isaacson: And it's probably be in Indianapolis.
1:57:02
Laila Rahmatian: Well, yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm impressed to see where it has taken
1:57:06
me, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
1:57:08
But it, it, it is that, it is this space.
1:57:11
I call this tribe, like, an incubator- Yeah â¦ that you have this, these
1:57:16
visions and, and, and what Joelle said is dream mapping or she said
1:57:22
a b- special word, like we can dream or we can we can plan things.
1:57:25
Like, she was not judgmental at all.
1:57:28
But she's like, "We can definitely dream map it and see
1:57:31
what can evolve out of this."
1:57:32
'Cause I was telling you before, I had decided to do certain things last
1:57:36
summer with you trying to s- spread the word of Horse Boy and Move Method
1:57:41
in other places, and we were able to look into that and make that possible.
1:57:46
But no I really hope that we canâ¦
1:57:50
I really am hoping that with my son, he's like Rowan, and I'm starting to see that.
1:57:57
Rupert Isaacson: He's so like Rowan.
1:57:58
And I mean, even now, and now that he's doing so much better and
1:58:00
he has become, he is verbal, and he is- Yeah â¦ toilet trained.
1:58:03
But the, he, he's, he is so like Rowan.
1:58:08
And you now know Rowan as an adult.
1:58:09
Yeah.
1:58:10
So you sort of have a, a, a goal now.
1:58:15
Laila Rahmatian: Like a, like a path, a framework to- Yeah â¦ to look.
1:58:18
Yeah.
1:58:18
An example.
1:58:18
And that has been giving me a lot of hope.
1:58:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:58:21
Yeah.
1:58:21
Laila Rahmatian: Yeah.
1:58:22
No, and it has, that's also been good for me, too, and I
1:58:24
know we have to wrap up soon.
1:58:26
But as a person like me, I need to see examples of hope, and that he has been
1:58:32
such a great example of hope for me because it's not even two years, and
1:58:36
I'm, I have my emotions go up and down, and I, I would say I'm still mourning.
1:58:42
But it's getting less and less of- Yeah â¦ of that worry.
1:58:47
Yeah.
1:58:47
So yeah.
1:58:50
In many ways, so.
1:58:51
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
1:58:51
Well, listen, thank you.
1:58:53
Thank you.
1:58:53
You're welcome.
1:58:54
But thank you so much for this,
1:58:56
Laila Rahmatian: Le.
1:58:56
You're welcome.
1:58:57
Rupert Isaacson: And,
1:58:57
Laila Rahmatian: You're welcome
1:58:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: we will see you on the next one.
1:59:00
Laila Rahmatian: Oh, yes, definitely.
1:59:01
I can't wait.
1:59:02
Thank you so much, Rupert.
1:59:03
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.
1:59:04
Laila Rahmatian: Bye-bye.
1:59:05
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1:59:08
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