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Seeking Trust in Leadership Through Music with Miha Pogačnik · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Thanks for tuning in again today for authentically being a Roxanne.
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Today, I have a special guest something that blew me away, when I saw him perform for the
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first time, and this was at Forbes.
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This is Mia Pornacek, We were talking about this, and they screwed it up.
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Earlier, his his name, He blew me away when I was introduced to him at Forbes.
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He is a violinist that has had a path that been absolutely amazing, starting in his love and
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passion for music.
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He has played concerts halls throughout the world, and then decided with time that he was
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going to listen to his innate heart and created a space where he allows corporations and
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leaders to listen to the space of the violin and their masterpiece, and they struck what the
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space that they need to in order to tap into their unconscious space to create trust.
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So we had thanks so much for coming on today.
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Yes.
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Hello, Roxanne, and hello, your audience.
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What a pity.
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We are not interface, but we have to go through Yeah.
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Zoom, but that's the modern world.
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I'm very honored and very pleased that we have time now to talk about these issues.
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As you mentioned in your introduction, I have created quite different innovation that one
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thinks of usually when you say innovation, you think about new digital device.
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But what I do is I take something very old masterpieces of classical music, and I bring it
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in the center of observation for the leaders to learn from it, how to organize and how to lead
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the companies.
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That's just one of innovation, but we are going to concentrate on this one today.
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Maybe we'll get around to other things.
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But certainly, violin playing is for me the key to unlock very different areas of social
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problems of modern days.
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So in other words, I have been fighting for many years how to reposition the role of the
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arts altogether because art is usually considered as something, entertaining, just
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entertaining for Friday night.
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No.
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Not at all.
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I'm using this classical music in order to open the people to a new possibility.
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To help them to reach out to their potentials.
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And you will see right away how that works.
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And and I don't expect anybody to know anything about classical music or love it or something
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like that.
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No problem.
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Because we are going step by step.
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We just observe it and we get involved in it.
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And suddenly, all kind of possibilities open up.
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So that's that's to sort of, in terms of introduction.
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Yeah.
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So, Leah, tell me about your you became a violinist for a reason.
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Were you exposed to the arts very young, or was it something that, you know, kind you kind of
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naturally out in Europe you know, people either play the violin or the piano.
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What was the space that got you disappointed of becoming a Maestro?
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Yes.
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I started very early in my beautiful country of Slovenia, and, I was inspired actually to hold
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music the people on Sunday's dancing and singing and playing music.
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And I just loved it.
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So I tried to imitate.
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And only much later I was given violin into hands because I imitate it on accordion wrong
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way.
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I played Melody with the left instead of with the right.
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So they said, oh, well, then he should play violin.
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So this is so it was a a mistake as it is always in life.
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So many mistakes happen did are not mistakes at all.
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You see?
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And then then my my way, when I was young, I I knew I want to be violinist, and that brought
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me to a studies, different universities.
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I was with the best masters of the time in Slovenia, in Germany, in United States, I
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started with famous varnish, and then I began a career and I paid many concerts, thousands.
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But then I noticed that when in a concert that there is a moment moment where, like,
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everything is melting when you reach for the really star in Germany, it's called the moment
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of a star.
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When that happens in a concept, then it's over with a concept and people, go home, you know,
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and I felt the end should be the beginning.
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When when you reach this magic sphere, that's the moment when people really are open and when
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they when they really feel their highest starred themselves.
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That's the moment you should start doing something about it and not just have a great
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experience and goodbye.
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You see, that is why I decided I must explore this much deeper.
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And the first thing that I did is I created my own festival in Roxanne in the most beautiful
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cathedral, chartre, south of Paris, you know, oldest, the beautiful first gothic cathedral.
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And I had many people there 3 years in a row, more than 1000 who came from 40 countries, all
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my audiences, I invited.
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And then something happened It was the time very much like now.
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At that time, the east west was towing off.
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You know, Soviet Union was beginning to disintegrate And, yeah, and it was very
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dangerous time as well.
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Gorbachev just appeared on the scene.
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And I started creating festivals in the crisis areas.
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I invited my audience to travel with me.
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So that was new.
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Never happened before that you would take hundreds of people with you to a place where
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there is a crisis and then you meet with the locals and so on.
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So I did that, I don't know, 200 festivals, not only in Europe, as far as Amazonia Tibet
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Australia using the whole world.
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I did that for many years until somebody asked me in early nineties, what you are doing
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actually is organizational development.
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My method.
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I said, oh, really?
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Tell me more.
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He said, no.
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You tell me more.
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So then then I I heard from experienced business leaders that what I do with the
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structure and development and transformation and all these things that we are trying to
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learn in our leadership trainings is actually exactly that that music gives a guidance So I
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developed a method where I take people out of their usual environment where there are
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problems and they go with me on musical detour.
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They go away from this pressure and, you know, semantics and all the things that, you know,
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that are very difficult to to put experience on it because we all talk about transformation.
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We all talk about, all these things.
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But how do you means.
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So it blasts.
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So people don't forget because we only have power point usually.
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I say power point without power.
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Know, you get an idea, but it goes out in the next year.
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You know, it's it's out.
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You forget, especially when there is a problem, then when there is a problem and people get
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emotional about it.
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They forget all that they are learning, and they they go back into the old, pattern.
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So you're tapping into a deep, profound part of what opens up the heart that allows people to
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listen.
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It is emotional memory.
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So when I have done this work with leadership group, they never forget.
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I guarantee them 15 years.
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That they will not forget.
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And what I try to give them is not Bogashnik ideas.
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I I work with masterpieces.
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So they and the great organic meaningful, beautiful, masterpieces of classical music.
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They have similar structure like organizational development or by creative biography, for
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instance.
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So I bring the parallels.
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So we we meet in the music same challenges, but we also meet and experience solutions.
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So I would Yeah.
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So now I want you to to to demonstrate what you what you do, which is completely immersive,
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which I think is phenomenal, Meehaw.
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So you take the floor, and I will be quiet.
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Oh, we just, you know, anytime Roxanne can ask me or if you have a comment and so on.
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But just say, any beginnings when you begin with music instead of talking when you start
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playing, you know, You know, when I start playing, do you notice everything changes?
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Segments.
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I'm I'm I'm I'm waiting.
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I I want more as I listen to that.
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Yeah.
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When when when music comes, I don't say that it's because I am playing generally when
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something like this can't be, we shift in another mode inside.
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And that's so valuable because it's sort of the whole human being responds.
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The whole human being starts resonating.
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And we are usually only living a fragment That's the problem.
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You know, I call it, we are professional idiots.
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You know, everybody knows their own thing, but we don't know how to reach over to the other
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domain.
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So the music lifts us to another place and if we learn to listen and we become activists
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listening, we we learn off a lot.
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For what we have as a daily, challenges and whatever.
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So but beginnings, another beginning.
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And so on.
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Beginning, you see, it is like inviting to a magic world.
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These two notes, they are called Octave in music.
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It is the same note, the same tone repeating on the next level.
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It's the same one.
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No.
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But on the next level, what does that mean in experience?
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It means a relationship between ego and I.
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No.
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Between everyday boring experience and the highest potential So that's what it is, and
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that's what I invite you.
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Now comes the second person.
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You see, if you invite in this way, the second person can enter into the process and it is in
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resonance.
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It is not like telling somebody to do and they don't want to do it.
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No.
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So it's so it goes above echo problems.
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That is why it is so effective.
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When I work with people, we go into the magic world the highest potential.
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And then after that, for instance, I have groups and we go through this music and I
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paint.
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You will see I paint the process.
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So they hear and see at the same time.
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But when we are finished, we are not finished.
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Then I put them in small groups.
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Now they make poetry out of this experience.
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So group poetry, team, and we are still in the sphere of arts.
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However, what I project is exactly what I get as a briefing.
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In other words, music then expresses clients needs or challenges.
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So they now are writing a poll together.
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10 people for 10 leaders, completely out of the hierarchy, just as they get to the number when
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they they get an so they come together without planning.
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You know, maybe CEO and maybe some assistance doesn't matter.
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Their human beings.
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So they make this poem together, and they must make then a choreography how they're going to
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present to their peers because there are maybe 5 groups when there are fifty people.
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Yeah.
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And then only after performance, We talk about debriefing.
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What did we learn
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through throughout the process?
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They go throughout the process.
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Yes.
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And you're not talking you're not talking about the elements of those stages of the process,
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not until the final product and they've performed it, then you deconstruct it.
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Then we can see what is the value for their company and for their problems or for them
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potential.
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First, we go to music painting poetry a choreography performance.
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And then we, after we have we are full of experience.
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For instance, The poem may be called letter to my customer or something like that.
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You understand?
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In other words, it is a different approach to to deal with the problems.
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And to find solutions.
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Because then people wake up the artist within because every human being is somewhere artist,
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but we have covered with so much dust.
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And ashes.
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So I opened this gateway to inner artists in every human being.
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And then and everybody is artists potentially.
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Nobody should say, oh, no.
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No.
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I'm not adding.
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I'm engineer.
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Yes.
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You're engineer, but some were deep inside.
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Have you ever been in love in your life?
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Okay.
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Yes.
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You have to know, you know what I'm talking about.
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You cannot say, oh, I don't accept love.
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Yeah.
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So, Mia, do you have have you ever come across the experience?
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Where people there are people that just will not go along.
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Oh, of course, especially, but, you know, not going along by doing together something in
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artistic sphere gives a chance that they can suddenly go along.
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Because it's not directly, written with the problems they have every day with each other.
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I sort of take them out.
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And, of course, I use great masterpieces of music that has authority.
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It's not like, you know, I have this idea, and I'll tell you what to do.
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No.
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I'm using masterpieces of music, which are universally absolutely acknowledged as genius.
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There is no question about it unless you are you know, total ignorance.
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Your ignorant cannot help you.
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But That is all universally acknowledged as nobody criticized as Mozicides.
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It's all clear.
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These these are my So, in this way, we avoid the conflict situation, and that sets in the
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motion the possibility for reconciliation.
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So for for finding a way to well, I can do this on the on the masterpiece just now when you
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divide its souls, not to say.
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But Look, I would show you the method now how that works.
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The beginning of a field by Bach, sounds like that.
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What do we hear?
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And so on.
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Can you hear, like, 4 voices, like, 4 violins, not just one?
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By the way,
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what is important when you have this experience is to to to sense the energy that comes out of
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it.
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Can you sense that there is a resolution this is what I'm going to do.
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And I connect 100% with what I do.
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This is one one of the problems in leadership.
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They don't connect with what they do.
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Or managers installed.
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They connect 20% as much as they are paid or whatever.
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But we, artist, we have no choice.
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We either collect completely, or it's gonna be very boring.
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So the first thing is identity, identifying with what you do.
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Then What do we hear?
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That's the beginning.
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First note.
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Yeah.
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Can we hear?
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It's direction.
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Here.
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It says, there I go.
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Yeah.
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Energy, but it's been but, you know, everybody has idea.
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It's a it's a it's a blazing idea, but So what?
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We all have ideas.
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Now now what is the next step if you have a good idea?
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What do you have to do?
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Yes.
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Do this.
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Wow.
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You see?
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The second step is Get everybody on board, reach above you, reach below you, inspire,
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motivate, mobilize, and then reinforce the direction.
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Can you hear that?
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Yes.
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But something's still missing.
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Now people are on board.
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So what now?
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Now Becomes it so what's missing is Well, the most difficult thing to embody something, to
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get it done, to have courage, to put the will into what you want to do, to get it, yeah,
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emerge, emerge as a reality So now, look, you could only hear this beautiful subject of the
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signature view by and say, oh, very nice.
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Or you can notice exactly the forces which make up this motive.
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And they are vision, inspiration, getting everybody on board and action.
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Isn't that background of any project that has to be born?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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These are the steps.
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And often it's stuck in, you know, mission vision strategy.
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And it's it's all very cognitive, which is in the head, but the disconnection from leadership
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and the people that they're trying to translate into, it it's It's not translatable at a deep
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emotional level, which is what you're demonstrating.
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If I would only tell you.
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Or if you have a project, you must make clear vision.
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You must know how you get your people behind you.
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And then, of course, you have to also invest in and get it done.
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If I only told you, I guarantee next moment people will forget because everybody's talking
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about that.
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But now if it is taken out of the context of emotional experience of music, you can't
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forget, you know, on Monday morning, you know, when you come to your workplace and old
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patterns fall on you.
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Don't forget and you start asking your call.
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Wait a minute.
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I do not hold the people behind me.
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They are not behind me.
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Oh, you notice suddenly the problems that are related to these 3 commandments.
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So in this way, I can help so it is sustainable.
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You know, sustainability ever talks about sustainability.
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I believe sustainability is memory.
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So you remember when you don't remember your culture, you are not sustainable.
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You're just a number.
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And, you know, it goes to that whole concept of of what I hear you clearly doing now in context
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from my background is from a neuroscience perspective.
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What you are actually doing is everybody's in the same heart rate variability, which is
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perfect flow.
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Right?
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So, again, when there's distress or stress or lack of direction, all our har all our
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heartbeats are out of rhythm, And when we are sitting in the symphony or, you know, in the
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concert hall, we're all regulating our hearts to the tempo of what p whatever piece of bach
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together, so we are dropping everything else.
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Yes.
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That is beautiful what you just said Roxanne.
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I honor you.
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Because I go even step further.
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You meant symphony.
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I take a symphony orchestra for my workshops.
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However, I place my clients sitting among musicians.
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They are in the orchestra.
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Can you imagine now this fifty people play around through.
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It is so overwhelming, but not only that.
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I I I have a method, disruptive method, I play and stop and paint and comment and, and sort
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of, direct the attention to the flow of music so people can exactly observe with head and the
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heart at the same time with emotion and with clarity of mind how and how that is evolving in
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masterpiece.
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I will immediately now show in in a concrete example, but the the reason I'm explaining this
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to you because you have a lot of experience, obviously, in this field, and you can,
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appreciate how much help that is if something that you want to change is under It's it's,
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comes out of the sphere of feelings.
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Mhmm.
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It's not just, you know, to go on transformation, forget about head only.
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No.
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It has to believe, you know, feelings and emotions.
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That's where the the the adequate space emerges where, transformation is possible.
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Otherwise, it rearrangement.
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So many people rearranged.
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They get new leader and they rearrange.
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They want something else.
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And, of course, people in a company get very cynical.
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Because they feel like everybody comes with some new ideas and then they are gone and then
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somebody else comes with another idea.
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So it is very bad for the culture.
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Transformation has to be, found in a very deep region of experience.
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That's where the and if we are going to now go into that, and exactly to that.
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Also, another thing that maybe your audience would appreciate to know what is actually the
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difference between normal, business approach and and artistic approach.
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Very quickly.
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No.
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In business, we are always thinking about next quarter.
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Bottom line.
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Yeah.
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Next quarter.
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So what are going to be the numbers next quarter?
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Turn over.
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Let's say a profit.
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Let's say profit.
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Let's say 3,000,000 profit.
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Why not?
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That's not much for businesses, not for artists.
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Yeah.
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So how do you get there next quarter?
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So so that's that's usual when you're there, they're everywhere.
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It's a floor in Bravo.
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You made it.
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You are excellent and all that.
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Now how do the actors get there?
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30 minutes.
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Did you get
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it?
24:16
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Because they they tap right in and they create from that creative space.
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They they just bubble out fraud.
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Yeah.
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For us to be excellent, it's so boring.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Interested in genius things, unique once and ever you hesitate to go the normal way.
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This is you are trying to find the right place in yourself from which you take off and then
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you take off, you know, like a rocket and then you are there Hello?
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Very often.
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Mhmm.
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It's so easy and you see this math, which is blood.
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It's all about blood.
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So it it hurts In other words, if you want to achieve something unique, expect that it's not
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easy.
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It's going to hurt one or the other way, but you don't care because you are having this
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blazing goal in your inner mind.
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So and that's that is so strong that you get through anything.
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You know, it's it's no direct.
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It's like, detours and, like, meandering, you know, you have to find a way.
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But once you are there, you have the feeling so much more so much better than just like anybody
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else.
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And, I mean, for
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and then it doesn't feel like work.
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I think that's when I look at the visual that Mia is showing, like, you know, kinda the
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explosion of, of creativity is fun.
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Yes.
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If there's a lot of back and forths, Whereas if it's a strategic plan that's come mostly in
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your head, it it just is it's work.
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It's not fun.
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It's not playful.
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Whereas from the artistic lens, when you're trying to clear away from the head and get to
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the heart, it is it can be chaotic, but it's also in its in its, I mean, it's madness.
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It it provides so much more.
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Call it fun, but it's more than fun.
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You know, actually, there are words are missing for these deep experiences.
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We don't have words.
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And it's good so because with words, we would kill it.
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So it's good, but it's important to know that when you are really connected with what you
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want to do, you are in another sphere of life.
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You are in our in your, you know, in your highest, possible expression which fills you
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with a special kind of joy and and purpose.
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It's almost like I would say, like, you open up, you know, the crown chakra because you are
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so connected to the universal energy, and something happens.
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It's like when I was writing my first book, Meeha, I I don't feel like I know I was writing
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it, but then it came from a space that was bigger than me.
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Great.
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Great.
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I I honor it for that.
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Just let's go on.
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Now let's let's take this as a 22 realities.
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One reality here and the other reality here.
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Yeah?
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And in between, there is a gap.
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In other words, We all have this challenge in our lives.
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All all people who are awake and developing I'm not talking about early pensionists.
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You know, that's also there.
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Unfortunately, people do not have the chance of possibility to always develop to the last
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breath Yeah.
27:31
But this reality one could say is on one hand, every day need, you know, basic needs basic
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needs.
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Eating, drinking, budgets, and all that, and other nice feels like goal, idealism,
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uniqueness, absolute inspiration, you know, also in mass nuclear, we have that, you know,
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self realization and at the bottom is basic needs.
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Now we are Can we look about how these these years can come together in life and in
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leadership and in organization?
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Can we look at that?
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I was just last week.
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I was working online and for because I was busy here, couldn't fly to Barcelona.
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I was working with a company in Barcelona.
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Who only had their meeting there, but they came from all continents together, and they wanted
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to get one company because there are too many pulling in different directions, 7 factories,
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and each has their agenda, and they feel like they they are not one global company.
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So I I chose the piece that you I think you heard when we had another, session before.
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And this this masterpiece has a following motive.
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In here, below it's desk.
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It says like this.
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It's like a wave trying to reach but the way goes up and goes down.
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It's like trying, but not.
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You know, how many times in life?
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You know?
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It goes falls back in and then comes the answer from the crisis.
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Very very fine, very gentle, but it says Don't give up one day.
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It'll be there.
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From above, It says, don't give up.
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You're not ready yet, but try.
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Don't stop trying.
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Learn.
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Try.
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You know?
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So it says, And of course, there is a gap.
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There is a gap, and this is everybody's life experience in people are alive, you know, that
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we, yeah, we are stuck in everyday reality, and we would so much like to be the divine sphere
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of, divine ancestors.
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So now how does that develop?
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This little masterpiece shows a journey towards that high potential towards confidence and
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trust that we can do it.
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And I use this for this company, so I can now comment to you so you will see, and your
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audience how practical that can be, such using a master.
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Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
30:45
healthy change.
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Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit and
30:54
Durhaj.com/blueprint.
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We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.