Latest / Identity at the Center / #212 - Investing in Digital Identity with Jackie Shoback and Howard Hall of 1414 Ventures

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#212 - Investing in Digital Identity with Jackie Shoback and Howard Hall of 1414 Ventures · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
0:10
am this is the go-to podcast. Now your hosts Jim McDonald and
0:18
Jeff Steadman welcome to the identity of the sender podcast
0:22
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you?
0:26
Oh, not so bad yourself. Good, you know, I've always I
0:29
always liked. I think of myself as an I am
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practitioner or I am practitioner at heart.
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So, when I think of investing in digital identity, I think about
0:38
it from the practitioner perspective, which is really,
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you know, an organization investing in there.
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I am posture. Improving the customer
0:48
experience, or improving the security, but I think today,
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we're going to talk about investing in digital identity
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from a different perspective, from an Investor's perspective.
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Yeah exactly. So we're going to get to that.
1:01
I think it's somewhat interesting to hear hear the
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different viewpoints we have. I mean obviously we talked a lot
1:05
with practitioners you and I be in the Consulting space to talk
1:08
of Thunders. It's actually I feel relatively
1:11
rare that you actually get to talk to people who are putting
1:13
the money into the market. And that's we're going to get
1:16
to. We're going to talk with a
1:17
couple of folks from 1414 Ventures, a couple housekeeping
1:20
things before we get started. We're only a couple weeks away
1:23
from a Denver's Jim. You and I are going to be there.
1:25
Yeah, it's gonna be pretty cool. We're gonna be recording.
1:28
Just outside the expo hall. The opening night that Tuesday
1:32
night Believers scheduled to go on at seven.
1:35
We have like a little spot so hopefully people come check us
1:37
out. We'll have a logo somewhere
1:39
somewhere near the Expo area just outside of it.
1:42
So come find us, hopefully people kind of you know come
1:44
check us out while recording stuff but that's a good Vickers.
1:47
Yeah get stickers I have I'm out of stickers, i've got to one of
1:51
my work laptop and one of my MacBook and so you know the
1:54
stickers are the draw I guess I've got hundreds of them
1:57
hundreds. Alright well we'll give those
1:59
away hopefully and it's just good to remind you right?
2:02
For folks who are looking at attending identi verse.
2:05
It is going to be happening at the Aria Resort and Casino in
2:09
Las Vegas. It's May 30th to June 2nd.
2:11
It's the must attend annual event.
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That brings together over 2500 Security Professionals for four
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days of world class, learning engagement, and entertainment.
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And if you're listening to this, we've got a discount code for
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you. You get 20% off your 2023
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tickets. Using the code I DV 2 3 Dash.
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I see Iain 20, don't worry about writing it down or if you could
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remember it just go to the website will have it there in
2:34
the show notes as well, so you can kind of find it but only a
2:36
couple weeks left. Hope, I don't know if there's
2:38
hotel rooms left. Yeah, they re I booked a while
2:41
back. Hopefully Jim.
2:42
You've got your hotel room booked.
2:44
Yeah. Book today, one day, one, that's
2:47
the way to do it. So, yeah, the pro tip book, the
2:49
hotel first, even if you're not sure gonna go and then always
2:52
come back and you always cancel a reservation and then update
2:55
with the promo pricing. If you've got it.
2:57
Yeah, great tip. The other great tip would be,
3:00
you're going to be in Vegas and you got to hit a buffet and I
3:04
think the buffet over Caesars is it's called the bacchanal.
3:08
That's the one I'm going to recommend for everyone.
3:11
Yeah, that's a good one. That's I think that's the best
3:13
one I've been to is, well, it's a bit of a hike though for me,
3:15
Aria, but that's probably a good thing.
3:17
If you're gonna be going to a buffet at least work, some of
3:19
those calories off your work involve from the way home.
3:21
Yeah. There and back exactly.
3:24
So hopefully we'll see. People at identifiers
3:26
identifiers.com more details will be in our show notes.
3:29
All right. How about we get to our main
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topic investing in digital identity.
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We're bringing back some folks from 1414 Ventures.
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The last time we had them on was episode 126 we had Mike angle
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and Howard Hall that was in November of twenty, twenty one.
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So here we are about a year and a half later and now we've got
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Jackie show back. Go back co-founder of 1414
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Ventures and a corporate board director as well as Howard hauls
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coming back, co-founder at 14-14 ventures and a managing director
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at consult Hyperion. Welcome back to the show Jackie
3:58
and how Howard, thanks, Jeff. Thanks Jim.
4:00
I'm glad to be back. So Jackie, this is the first
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time that you've been with us. And we have tradition around
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here that we like to find out a little bit about sort of the
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backstories for the folks that are in the identity space.
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So I'm going to ask you a question.
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We ask everybody, how did you get into digital identity?
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Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
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Well it's very interesting Jeff and Jim thank you so much for
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having me here today. I'm really excited to be here.
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So I spent the bulk of my career.
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In financial services and in consumer about 25 years and over
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the course of my career, I watched and scaled a number of
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businesses and grow them, but it was during this era of really,
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the growth of all things digital, digital channels,
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digital transformation and digital identity.
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And that really was the Common Thread over the last 20, 25
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years for me was really growing digital businesses and leading
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digital transformation efforts. And as any good executive knows,
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the key to success, in being a digital transformation leader.
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It's all about the digital identity.
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It's all about the data and it's how you capture Sharon store.
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It's the taxonomy used Master data management and then I was
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fortunate enough. A few years back, a very dear
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friend to both, Howard. And I introduced us and we began
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Angel Investing together and then in 2020, we got the idea
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for 14:14 and began forming the fund.
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Begin investing in 2021. And here we are now 14
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Investments by 14, 14, which is started in 2020.
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Just a fun play on numbers, total coincidence.
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I'm sure Howard. I'm not going to ask you about
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your background because I'll let people go back to 126.
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They can kind of listen there and we also ask you about 1414
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Ventures back down, but I'm curious to see in the year and a
6:07
half. We had is Jackie, you know, how
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do you suppose, how do you describe 14:14 Ventures for
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people who aren't familiar? You know what is it?
6:15
So 1414 Ventures. So so real quick our name is
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from the safe, conducts, Act of 1414, Henry the fifth, the
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beginning of the modern day passport.
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So that's why we picked the name and really the We described it
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were the only active Fund in the digital identity space.
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We bring a very disciplined and rigorous lens to everything.
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We look at we invest very early precede and Seed stage, and our
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definition of digital identity is really the transactional data
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that is captured shared and stored from an individual
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entity, or object that can be used to, then verify
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authenticate, or or authorize a transaction or interaction.
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We actually have a pretty robust sizing of the market.
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It's about a six hundred and sixty four billion dollar market
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that we've broken down into 50 sub-segments and it grew eight
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and a half percent last year. And it's actually projected to
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grow over fifty percent over the next few years to over a
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trillion. So, it's a very Dynamic, very
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complicated, in some ways because there's a lot of
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Regulation and just Out of factors at work but it's a very
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Dynamic Market that's growing. And really as all things digital
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and digital transformation have accelerated over the past few
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years. I would say we have found
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ourselves sort of right at the Centre of really some very
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interesting seismic changes that are happening which I'm sure
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we'll talk about. Yeah we're definitely into it.
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Howard is there anything? You'd like to add as far as sort
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of that definition of how you see the ID?
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Any space because I think the one thing that I would like to
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point out for people who aren't familiar is you do a really cool
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kind of like periodic table of elements.
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It's the ID elements that I'll have a link in our show notes as
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well but you've got to really broken down the space into I
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think Jackie mentioned something like 50 different areas when a
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lot of people think about anything.
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Oh it's just my password. Yeah that in the whole bunch of
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other stuff but Howard anything that you want to add to that.
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I think Jackie stated a while, I'll give sort of my very
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simplistic view of it which is to me digital identity is the
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the Transmission of high-value data, right?
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If you can achieve that in a way that reduces friction increases
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security that's sort of the the the foundation you were trying
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to achieve in some of these Investments.
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I think there's a really good opportunity to make people's
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lives. See from better and Enterprises
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create better experiences for their for their end users.
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Howard. I'm going to jump right into the
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deep interior and ask you a question about Tom Bravo and you
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know kind of the identity digital identity companies that
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they've recently acquired including ping South A point in
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forgerock. What are they up to?
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You guys are great questions. Um you know, they're smart,
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they're smart group of folks. And if you see what they've done
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in the cyber security space, they own it, collectively
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amongst their portfolio, companies, particularly in
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cybersecurity, the world's largest provider of cyber
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security solutions for in a way. No one else even close.
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And I think that had some success there, and I think
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they're trying to replicate that Playbook and extensibility, have
9:22
an integer identity. And so the one that really
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caught me off guard to be truly. And to be totally honest was the
9:28
for, Position sale point. I got pink eye movements.
9:31
A point where I thought for drop was interesting and then I
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started to dive into it a little bit.
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They kind of look a little bit like pee, right?
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I mean, broadly speaking, they both, I am.
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And you can, you can label 20 companies with that, broad sort
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of acronym, but having said that, they kind of have
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different areas of specificity. So when I think of paying I
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think about really strong customer identity.
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So I'm really leaning on that. I think about for drop.
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I think more enterprise-oriented.
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I think that's where that growth trajectories have respectively.
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Bet, you know, the deployment models.
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Are there some system. Some gaps there as well.
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I mean, they both have on-premise Solutions, but I
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think ping has been more more driven towards doing a cloud
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first approach. And I do think particularly The
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Siam that that's a really make sense.
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Way to approach the problem. And similarly, with for drug,
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this still a big large, Eastland on premise solution, so they
10:27
differentiated enough. That while they do have some
10:29
customer overlap. I think through consolidation of
10:32
efforts trying to get some efficiencies on both sides of
10:35
the balance sheet, they can drive higher profitability, and
10:37
higher margin sale Point kind of complements both.
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So, I mean, I think the strategy I'd be lying if I said I had it
10:44
fully baked. But as an outside Observer, I
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think that I can connect the dots as to why it makes sense
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and I think sale Point compliments both of them so you
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know and I do think it's a large and growing market and there's a
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Lots of opportunity for both incumbents as well as new
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engine. So I think, when I talk about a
11:02
little bit later, but to me as an outside Observer to me, that
11:06
is economic and Technical efficiencies, I think that can
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be brought about through the way.
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They're starting to consolidate this Market, interesting.
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And I think you told me before we started that, you don't have
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any Insider information, but I take it from what you're stating
11:21
there that you usually more towards those being a strategic
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picture of how do these parts and pieces of work together.
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Than just a financial plate. Like hey, here's an undervalued
11:32
asset. We're going to buy it a year
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from now we're going to be able to sell it for twice.
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What we paid for it at the being really.
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I think there's a little bit of both in hand.
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I think they see growth in the assets respectively independent
11:45
of one another. But I think there's some really
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interesting synergies that a combined offering Consolidated
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offering some of the properties that putting together create a
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more enhanced value. Proposition Jackie, do you have
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anything to add to what? Howard stated?
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Yeah. Would just say that I think, you
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know, there in a space that is projected to grow a lot, right?
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Over a trillion in the next few years and to Howard's Point
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acquiring. These assets that can be
12:16
strategically, configured really positions them.
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Well, to be able to go out and take market share.
12:25
Because if you think about just as Howard Add how they're
12:29
putting these pieces together, it really stretches across the
12:32
value chain and a lot of consumers.
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And by consumers, I mean, Enterprise consumers, if you put
12:39
yourself in the shoes of the cio's and the cisos who are
12:45
making purchase decisions, they'd much rather go and buy
12:49
from one vendor who can handle the Myriad of challenges for the
12:55
identity stack. Which these guys would really
12:58
Lee in a way sort of be in a Serie you know in a serious by
13:04
themselves. If they were able to put all
13:06
these pieces together and I suspect there will be other
13:08
pieces that they will be acquiring.
13:11
They seem quite acquisitive and like I said it's a hot space so
13:15
I think that could have being there really interesting moat,
13:19
it's interesting where you kind of alluded to that kind of
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One-Stop shop for all of your identity needs.
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And I'd say that was kind of Mentality with Oracle and CA you
13:32
know what was that? 15 years 15, 20 years ago where
13:35
they went out and bought you know the parts and pieces and
13:38
then tried to integrate them and then up-and-comers came in, pass
13:43
them. I don't think I don't consider
13:45
either one of those vendors as kind of a leader in the space at
13:50
this point anymore. So so very interesting I believe
13:55
the Ping and the sale Point Acquisitions have completed.
14:01
I think the forgerock acquisition has not completed
14:05
yet, right? So I guess that's under some
14:07
kind of review. I noticed that, you know, the
14:10
the offer that Tom will Bravo made for purchasing shares with
14:15
20 3.25 and I just checked before the show and it was
14:20
trading around $20 to share, which to me is a pretty big
14:24
Delta, and I wonder if there's anything that can be taken from
14:28
that. So, I'll jump in there, you
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know, you're right. Typically when when things like
14:34
this happen, you see a convergence right of the offer
14:39
price and the publicly traded price.
14:42
So, I mean, to me and, again, I have no inside information, but
14:47
to me, it would seem that, you know, there's there still priced
14:55
into the market at least the publicly I traded Arena, you
15:01
know there's just a lot of there's a lot of volatility and
15:05
uncertainty that we have and clearly the synergies that will
15:10
come from the combination. I mean to me that's what's
15:13
priced into the future Price, Right?
15:16
The future price that we have for Thoma Bravo.
15:18
So it's the premium is probably the right premium given given
15:24
the synergies and and the Set one would expect to see through
15:30
the combination so I'm definitely not professional in a
15:34
space. But how are you going to add
15:35
something real quick? So I want to, I want to ask a
15:37
question about this yelling at my dad to stay with your
15:39
subject. Is that really well is that
15:41
there is more pent up capital on the sidelines and there's ever
15:44
been right, there is so much Capital will increase that needs
15:47
to be deployed. Most of which is in the car for
15:48
the private Equity firms. Like it's armed robbery was time
15:50
to your private Equity Firm. They have to deploy Capital
15:53
that's what they're in the business of doing and if they
15:55
can justify through the mechanism that Jack explain And
15:58
it sort of supports, the reason that they may pay what can be
16:02
defined as a small premium on a really good company, but a lot
16:06
of its it boring to worry about that.
16:07
There is so much pent-up capital and not a tremendous amount of
16:11
demand where they can play that game from.
16:12
They find something it's logical that they might pay a premium
16:15
for it. So I think your head in a
16:16
direction that I wanted to follow up on real quick is we've
16:18
from a economy perspective, least in the US mortgage
16:22
interest rates. Keep going up.
16:23
Does that affect investment investing in in companies like
16:26
this? Or does it really not play a
16:27
factor? Oh yeah, totally does interest
16:31
rates going up. I mean, what we're seeing right
16:33
now, there's a bit of a liquidity crunch going on.
16:36
Lending is tightening up and it's more expensive.
16:41
So yes, it does affect the overall investing because
16:46
companies who are dependent upon working capital, wines and other
16:50
things. All of a sudden now they're
16:53
economics are getting worse because they're having to
16:56
service higher and more expensive debt.
16:58
Get on the flip side. I'd also just say interest rate
17:03
increases introduce risk into the overall macro environment,
17:09
and that's a consideration when you're making a decision as to
17:14
whether or not you're going to invest or when you're making a
17:16
decision. Do I want to give a dollar to a
17:18
new investment or do I want to hold a dollar and keep it in
17:22
reserves to support my existing portfolio?
17:25
So, all these factors come into play and I think The biggest
17:29
thing is, you know, when there is a lack of clarity around,
17:35
will rates go up, will rate, stay flat, will rates go down
17:39
and I think right now we're in one of those moments I guess, I
17:43
guess, the next few months, as some bigger macroeconomic things
17:47
play out, we'll see. But right now, there is a little
17:50
bit of a lack of clarity given given what's going on, just in
17:54
the last few weeks, with, with some of the banks and some of
17:58
the Other other macro Trends. So that uncertainty certainly
18:02
impacts markets across the board.
18:04
One thing that I thought was for certain was that when the deal
18:08
was announced for drug, basically spiked the trading
18:12
price went from like 15 to 20. Is that good?
18:15
Is that bad? I don't know.
18:17
Right? Is it seems to me like the
18:19
market saying yeah, that's a great idea.
18:20
Let's go for it and that's been a really consistent around that
18:22
twenty twenty dollar Mark that Jim mentioned earlier.
18:24
But if I'm a sideline person looking at this from the
18:27
outside, Seems to me like the market thinks that's a good
18:30
move, is it? Yeah, I think broadly speaking
18:33
it is, I mean, you know, for drug has a magnificent customer
18:36
base, the leadership, there is exceptional right.
18:39
If you look at a single at4, we know quite well.
18:43
She's an extraordinary woman. She's one of the what I call the
18:45
original pioneers of digital identity.
18:48
They continue to grow within the Enterprise space which is to me
18:51
is still the, the sort of the brass ring, everybody's trying
18:54
to get to. So I think the market reacted
18:57
accordingly, Terms of you see the spike in the price.
19:00
And I think that's driven by two things.
19:01
One is time of Robin really smart people and they make good
19:04
Investments. They continue to drive value for
19:05
their investors. To is the Border, really good
19:07
property by most estimations and three in there at the, you know,
19:10
All Ships, All Ships float a rising tide and by any
19:13
estimation, you know, we're seeing double-digit keggers,
19:16
broadly, speaking, of course, of digital identity landscape.
19:19
So I think it's a reactionary response, but I think it's
19:22
appropriate as well. I want to shift gears a little
19:24
bit Jackie and get into a couple other questions in the space.
19:27
I guess. The first one.
19:28
Be from a cybercrime perspective, does that run
19:31
counter cyclical to the economy? I mean, what are the
19:34
implications when it comes to digital identity?
19:36
When it when we get into areas where there is uncertainty in
19:39
the markets or you know I don't know if we're in a special or
19:42
not. See, I don't know if we've made
19:43
a decision yet on that but it seems like a sort of like
19:45
balancing on the edge. You know, what is, what is your
19:48
view point on it, right? Well there's the old saying
19:50
about certainty, right? You're certain of taxes, you're
19:53
certain of death and I have to just add a third.
19:56
I think you can be pretty certain.
19:58
Cyber crime is going to be at least.
20:01
Where was the previous year? If not higher, right?
20:04
We've seen that the last few years, identity theft fraudulent
20:09
claims, its 40 40 billion. I think it was back in 2020, I
20:15
know it was over 50 and 21, my point being.
20:19
Yeah, it's, it's absolutely counter-cyclical.
20:24
Just take the fact that right now, even though we're in, In a
20:29
market that is soft. Companies are continuing.
20:32
If you talk to companies you find, they are definitely
20:37
continuing to invest in cybersecurity new tools, new
20:41
protocols. I mean some of it, they have to
20:43
just to stay current with the regulation, what what the
20:47
requirements are. But but yeah, that's one of the
20:50
few areas where budgets are actually going up.
20:53
So, yes, just that point alone, it's counter-cyclical and I
20:58
think Think as as we continue to see more fraud and and more
21:02
regulation, I think we'll continue to see levels of
21:07
spending go up even more by Enterprises.
21:11
So it's actually pointing think one of the things I think about
21:13
is when we get into this sort of stage of the economy that we're
21:15
in, right now where people are, maybe looking at their spend a
21:18
little bit more, maybe they're not taking investments into
21:21
security or Identity or things like that.
21:24
Seems to me like that's an Open Door potentially for people to
21:26
come in and do that. Say, interesting things
21:30
someone's environment, you know, one of the old adage is in the
21:32
cyber security space is. You know, there's a to type two
21:34
types of companies those that have been hacked and those that
21:37
don't know it yet. And if you like we're kind of in
21:39
that space Howard, you know, from your perspective, what do
21:42
you see from your from your chair when it comes to investing
21:48
continuing their investment and security and identity, even if
21:52
we are maybe pulling back and other areas of an organization?
21:55
Yeah. So couple a couple of
21:56
observations one is they've been a couple of things symptomatic
22:00
that I think we'll see an increase in cyber crime as we
22:03
move into this recessionary period.
22:05
First of this historical data that supports that statement
22:08
less true session. We were in was back in 2010
22:10
quality and the FBI reported a 23 percent increase, so it's a
22:14
meaningful and dramatic spike in the amount of cybercrime.
22:17
You see, in down economies and traditionally recessions having
22:21
said, that this month, asymptomatic things were on one
22:22
of which you touched on, which is and I just put Jackie
22:26
statement, but I do think a lot of companies particularly
22:28
midsize. He's going to be visiting, their
22:29
it budgets and what they might not cut their spending on it
22:33
particular security. There's going to be a fair
22:35
portion that won't increase it and thus is going to create an
22:38
opportunity for a really smart bad guys which sadly there's too
22:41
many of I think the other symptomatic problem that we're
22:43
experiencing is we are working in this remote environment,
22:46
right? And that lends itself to a lot
22:48
of susceptibility and while we're a couple years into it,
22:50
we're still in the infancy of it and it's not going anywhere.
22:53
So I think as we work in that distributed environment, it also
22:56
lends itself to a lot more opportunity for bad guys or Bad
23:01
actors to get in and perpetrate the type of crimes that if you
23:05
know both caused irreparable Financial damage, but often
23:09
reputable brand damage. So but having said that, so,
23:13
forgive my like that going directly to your question.
23:16
I actually think that was very opportune.
23:18
So I, you know, classically great company to started during
23:20
recessions, I can clear our love a list of companies that are
23:23
starting to recessions which are some of the top 100 companies in
23:26
the world. Because at this, Mike Mozart
23:29
companies from product built, right?
23:30
They are still figuring out product requirements, feel pain
23:34
still figuring out, you know Mr. D is prds, getting two specs,
23:38
getting some working code at the door and getting into people's
23:41
hands. Without having the budgetary
23:43
constraints that having to spend six stages are multiples of 6 is
23:46
to acquire that product and the objective is worth investing
23:50
this down economy that. By the time these companies are
23:52
ready to Market ready really looking to grow channels and
23:55
scale their businesses. We've come out the other side To
23:58
this. And so, you know, historically
24:00
for Venture funds investing down economy has had quite good
24:03
returns and you'd like to believe we're going to benefit
24:06
from that same historical trajectory guess what?
24:08
I'd like to know is what are the areas that are exciting to you
24:11
and I'll start with Jackie and then go to Howard.
24:13
But you know, in terms of the space some of the things are hot
24:17
within our space decentralized identity.
24:21
I TDR. Keem password list.
24:24
I'm just naming a few that are just blowing up and have it.
24:28
Once attention which is the space is really speaks to you
24:32
and are there particular vendors that you see blossoming or that
24:36
you've maybe invested in that we should be aware of?
24:41
Yeah. Now thanks Jim.
24:43
So the first one I would just say broadly data privacy.
24:48
It's a really hot space, there's increasing regulation.
24:53
There's also a lot of obviously consumers who are wanting to
24:57
make sure that That their data remains private and that they
25:01
have control over it. One area in particular that we
25:05
really like, and I know I'm speaking for Howard to when I
25:07
say this is the age assurance and consent management space.
25:14
You've probably seen there's been a bevy of recent state laws
25:21
passed one recently in Utah and also finds at the federal level
25:27
recent. Fine for 500 million imposed on
25:31
epic games because of not keeping proper age assurance and
25:37
consent management Trails. So we really like that space.
25:44
To me, it's analogous to what CCPA was a few years back.
25:50
We'll be seeing with the protection of privacy for
25:53
minors. We recently invested in the
25:56
company in that space. And so we're very excited about
26:01
it just a few others quickly. I'll mention, I really like
26:04
encryption and privacy as well. It's got a really nice kegger
26:09
from from we did our Market sizing and it fits with
26:14
everything we were just talking about, right?
26:15
Like the need to keep things private, the need to keep things
26:19
secure, the constant desire for data, security, and data
26:24
privacy. And then, of course, Biometrics,
26:26
I have to mention that we Actually don't have any
26:29
investments in our portfolio right now in the biometric
26:33
space, but it's a space Howard and our own.
26:35
I know we both really liked it and obviously with password list
26:38
authentication and, and all of the Innovation going on there.
26:41
We think it's a hot space. The question about the consent
26:45
management piece that you brought up.
26:46
So, I'm wondering if you see this as an area where vendors
26:53
will create industry specific Solutions.
26:57
So for example, I'll work with a healthcare insurance provider
27:02
who had a use case around mature miners.
27:06
So these are people under the age of 18 who have control over
27:11
their own health information, but can delegate the ability to
27:17
others to have access to that. So it's a very industry-specific
27:21
solution and it's like if you're in that Industries, like almost
27:25
TurnKey, right? It's got everything.
27:28
Need versus if it was something that was meant to apply to
27:32
everybody. It probably wouldn't hit this
27:35
specific use cases. Well enough and you'd have to
27:38
turn back to custom development but you know ultimately my
27:41
question I guess to you is do you see that as a space where
27:45
we'll get industry specific Solutions?
27:48
I would just say yes I believe I believe there will be specific
27:52
solutions for verticals. I also think there will be some
27:55
general Registries that I end up being created just because of
28:01
the really the epidemic we have going on right now with with
28:07
children and minors and just their total accessibility to
28:12
things, they shouldn't have access to but yeah I think
28:16
they'll be tearing and there will be definite verticals.
28:19
Yeah, absolutely. So the same question, you Howard
28:22
what are the spaces that excite you and if there's any vendors
28:26
that you want to point to Yeah, for sure.
28:29
Thank you. That's a good question, Jim.
28:32
I think the one place that I keep coming back to is
28:34
orchestration, you know, deploying to Joy then Solutions,
28:37
a highly complex. You're going to complex
28:39
environments. It's an assortment of different.
28:41
What? I think of this water Point
28:42
Solutions and I think having a really strong words,
28:45
orchestration, platform and orchestration.
28:47
Layer can make that process, a lot more seamless in a lot more
28:50
secure. We have the Good Fortune of
28:52
investing in a company, early days called singular key, which
28:56
ironically enough to acquire by Ping Identity.
28:58
So it's a space that we should be to.
29:00
I think it was our first investment and so is the space.
29:03
We identified early on and I remain bullish on it.
29:05
I've not seen anything quite as eloquent as Ellie and I should
29:08
say a singular Kate. But I remain bullish on the
29:11
space. Another area where I'm keenly
29:13
interested is verifiable credentials that we talk about
29:16
the portability of data and moving it around and being able
29:18
to reuse it time and time again. Bring down the overall economics
29:21
of somebody's consumer identity and so many managing it I think
29:26
VCS and reusable credentials. We continue to be a hot area.
29:30
They've been slow to emerge that I thought to be honest with you.
29:33
So we have a bet in that space when I come to call one of my
29:35
day who are extraordinarily fond of and have high hopes for and
29:39
they've done a nice job and I'd like to say that the space is
29:41
going to tour mature more rapidly because it's one that I
29:44
still feel extraordinarily bullish on.
29:46
Yeah, one of the so my son is he graduates from high school next
29:51
week and he's going into a cybersecurity program and I'm
29:57
talking to him about The space and kind of where I think it's
30:01
going. And one of the, you know, his
30:04
generation is going to have to solve different problems than
30:07
our generation has had to solve. I think, one of the biggest
30:10
things that will need to be solved is as we move to a more
30:14
and more digital economy and it's like, aren't we already
30:17
there? No, we're not, we're just
30:18
scratching the surface, like everything's going to be
30:21
digital. Well how do you take all these
30:23
Solutions and make them? You know, plug them into
30:27
everything. Maybe that's where a I wants a
30:30
fitting and write that a I can actually do it in the people who
30:35
you know, are in the space. Are the ones who were castrate,
30:38
what AI winds up doing. We've been talking off a lot
30:41
about the future and I want to talk about the present because
30:46
I'm curious if you guys see any room for Innovation on the
30:49
technologies that a lot of companies are using day and day
30:51
out. And thinking about things like
30:53
access management, single sign-on, you know multi-factor
30:56
to some degree. Obviously there's Biometrics
30:57
things like that but things like identity governance
31:00
Administration or privileged access management you know where
31:03
it seems to me that those markets have gotten pretty
31:06
mature you know. So the point where, you know our
31:09
friends over at Gartner they don't do a magic quadrant
31:13
anymore and IGA now I asked Enrique and Becky when we were
31:17
at Gartner, you know, a few months, a few weeks back or few
31:19
months back at this point, you know, is did somebody win that?
31:23
I don't think they were prepared for an answer on that one, but
31:26
is there a new up-and-coming IGA?
31:29
Are we even going to need? It is going to be able something
31:30
else. Like where is the Innovation
31:32
going to come from in? Sort of what I would call
31:34
Modern? Which is quickly becoming
31:37
traditional identity and access management.
31:39
I know. Jackie you have any thoughts on
31:40
that and we can go to Howard. Yeah, just one, quick thing,
31:43
I'll add, I mean, I agree with you.
31:46
You can always count on new regulations and new requirements
31:50
to cause some Innovation rate. So the SEC is coming out with
31:55
increased disclosure. Mints for cyber and I'm sure we
32:00
haven't seen them yet, but I'm sure there will be additional
32:04
requirements in there just beyond the disclosure to me that
32:09
will probably be an impetus for some new Innovations.
32:16
And what I mean, by new Innovations is just cheaper
32:18
faster easier, right? Because because things are going
32:22
to have to be able to be easily integrated into compliance
32:25
systems, which then can easily be Bloated to an SEC website or
32:32
into an audit into an audit tool.
32:35
So I think we'll see, we'll see Innovations around tools that
32:41
make it easier to sort of track report, identify respond to meet
32:48
the, meet the kyc, and the compliance requirements Howard.
32:55
What do you think? Yeah, I actually do think
32:56
there's a lot of room for innovation.
32:58
When you think about will pick on I am or Pam for instance or
33:01
even IGA, I mean this still working large with Legacy
33:04
systems and this complex, it's difficult it's hard and so I'm
33:07
still looking out there, you know, turning over some rocks to
33:09
find this person who just going to really cloud native that can
33:12
deliver a newer experience in a cloud need of kind of way.
33:16
I think that could be super cool.
33:18
I also think that there's opportunity to enhance user
33:22
experience particularly as user out that the edge and give them
33:25
some self-governing or self-regulating.
33:28
These and privileges, so I do think you're right.
33:32
Those companies are, I won't stay long in the tooth because
33:35
they're still innovating that world-class company.
33:37
So, with all due respect them, but I do think that there is
33:41
some gaps in. There is a little bit of an
33:44
opening for somebody to come innovate and come in and
33:46
innovate and do some really cool things.
33:48
Again, thinking about user, experience, thinking about and
33:51
security, think about Cloud native?
33:53
I think all our opportunities for free.
33:56
The somebody either internally with working Within One of those
33:58
companies innovate or, or more likely and hopefully it's us
34:02
find some young upstart that is doing that on their own, that
34:05
can create a better experience and better security for the for
34:08
the players. That's the Holy Grail, right?
34:11
Find a big hot company before they become big.
34:13
I companies, right. Exactly.
34:15
Jackie mentioned something that I that I want to ask a quick
34:18
follow-up on here, that is cost. I think the cost of lot of these
34:23
tools is still a prohibitive for a lot of organizations,
34:25
especially mid-market smaller. Companies are they It's a boy we
34:29
sure would like to have, you know upper, right?
34:32
Magic quadrant whatever it may be but it's very expensive.
34:35
Especially as you grow and may not be willing to make that
34:39
investment. Do you think the delivery model
34:42
the costs? The is an area that
34:46
organizations can innovate on and what I mean by that is if
34:49
the current organization charges $50 a year for a person is the
34:53
Innovation. Someone can come along and do it
34:55
as good better or maybe just you know, almost Most is good for
34:59
$10, is that and Innovation? Yeah.
35:03
Well Jeff, I think this is a great segue, you know, with aii,
35:07
right? I mean there's that that's
35:10
really going to disrupt a lot of the cost side of the equation
35:13
because a lot of the tasks, the workflows the work, right?
35:19
Even some of the coding can now be done through generative, Ai
35:24
and can be done in a way, that is much.
35:28
More efficient, much less costly and can make some of these
35:33
platforms depending upon how sophisticated the solution is.
35:38
But if they keep it pretty, pretty basic they can really
35:41
make it quite affordable. I mean, at least from everything
35:44
I've seen, it seems like we're just now beginning that Journey.
35:49
But I would expect in the next few years will start to see sort
35:53
of these next-gen solutions that are, you know, Chat chat to ptai
36:00
driven, that will dramatically reduce the cost and yet serve a
36:06
basic need so Jesse didn't ask what.
36:09
But I think I can't wait to tell you anyway, right.
36:15
So I think that a couple of these phases are ripe for
36:18
Innovation. I think the IGA spaces
36:21
especially ripe for innovation. In fact, I think we should
36:26
change the definition of IGA. It's traditionally been ensuring
36:30
that the right people have the right access to the right
36:32
information at the right time. Yada yada yada, but I think it
36:36
needs to adapt to things saying the right people have the right
36:41
access. Looks like, it's not only about
36:43
people anymore, right is so much more than people manage
36:46
administering access governing access, which through the
36:50
detector process. Was it used properly?
36:53
Or is it, is it provision properly is not just about
36:57
people's access? Yes, but it's also machine
36:59
identities but then also expand that space to.
37:03
Now, we provision the access, we know that what we provisioned is
37:07
actually correct, how much of it is actually being used, how much
37:12
of it is over-provisioned, you know, and such a massive problem
37:18
to solve but it's all the data is out there and if you can
37:22
combine a I you know, thinking to that and maybe it's just a S
37:29
business intelligence. Like I was saying before which
37:32
is like, okay, well, if you're not using the access but you
37:35
have the access you don't need the access principle of least.
37:39
Privilege means you should take away that access.
37:42
So that's number one IG. I think is ripe for Innovation,
37:46
I don't know that's gonna happen next year but that's why.
37:49
And the second one is privileged access management like and this
37:53
is already happening, right? So traditional privileged access
37:56
management was built for for your own data centers.
38:00
And now, this new thing is happen, which is people are
38:04
moving all of their platforms and their applications out to
38:08
the cloud to AWS Google Cloud, Microsoft Azure, and the
38:13
traditional Pam platforms are struggling to make the move to,
38:21
you know, treat those just like their own data centers, right?
38:24
And because they are different new platforms are spinning up.
38:28
To manage Pam, but in a different way right there, doing
38:33
it with this just in time access and things like that.
38:36
And to me like The Innovation the revolutions already
38:40
happening in that Pam's fees and so access management.
38:45
I feel like is kind of constantly challenging itself
38:49
and we see things like with the Biometrics and like, I think
38:54
it's the Innovation is happening in that space.
38:57
So So I'm less concerned about that as an area of innovation
39:01
but you know, all of this like the major Innovation I think in
39:05
Nigeria is going to come by way of, you know, the ability to
39:11
Crunch the amount of data that a human being cannot and it's
39:15
going to have to happen at scale so I have to be available for
39:19
all organizations ultimately to for us to be successful.
39:24
The only way to do that is through artificial intelligence.
39:27
So Howard. What do you think?
39:30
Am I crazy now? You, you were actually spot on
39:33
Jim and thanks for taking that. They taking that lead on the
39:36
response when what do you said really resonated with me.
39:38
So, I'll point the audience and you guys.
39:40
If you haven't a chance, take a look at Palo Alto.
39:42
Just published a really interesting report Palo Alto
39:45
networks. And the primary thesis of the
39:47
report is that the fundamental Achilles heel and you said as
39:51
much where I look like that, I'll say Jim it digital
39:53
identities over privileged they sort of just narrowed it down
39:56
quite simply to over privilege. And I think the solutions that
40:00
you're suggesting and The Innovation that can be brought
40:02
about can solve that problem, which they, at least identify as
40:05
one of the principal issues with, with bleaching digital
40:08
identity. So no, I think you said it
40:10
extraordinarily well. And I subscribe to that to that
40:13
Vision. What do you think Jackie?
40:14
And you know where else you see AI contributing with in this
40:19
digital identity space? Well, I totally agree with what
40:22
you're saying on the over privileged and the ham has The
40:28
real opportunity there. I also think that your point on
40:36
access management was a good one too, that it's sort of
40:39
happening. The Innovation is happening
40:41
there. Quietly, it's very interesting.
40:43
We actually have a company in our portfolio that's in the
40:45
identity access management space and Swift connect and they've
40:50
been doing some amazing things with with there with the layer
40:56
that they've created. And And how it's really helping
40:59
to solve hybrid work solutions for real estate companies and in
41:06
for Enterprises, but, you know, if I step back and I really
41:10
think about Ai and where else it can really be be helpful.
41:17
I don't know why. I keep going to risk management
41:20
and to compliance but I sort of go there because I feel like
41:27
historically Very archaic, it's not transparent.
41:32
It's complicated. And yet a I can sort of sift
41:37
through all of that and simplify and provide much more
41:42
transparency to compliance Arenas and and also in the risk
41:49
management Arena to your point on the ability to Crunch huge
41:53
amounts of data. I mean, think about some of the
41:58
The risk score cards and being able to get a real handle on,
42:04
where you have vulnerabilities in your network and, and being
42:09
able to quickly, not only identify but then remediate
42:13
those vulnerabilities. There's no way you're going to
42:15
be able to do that without Ai and ml combined, right?
42:20
So, I guess I see a lot more application of AI with ML sort
42:27
of Some of these detection remediation areas and then of
42:34
course, I think it has big implications for master data
42:38
management and just how people will be the taxonomy and how
42:44
people will be architecting Master data management schemas.
42:49
Yeah, it's interesting. I think just side note, I think
42:53
MDM and identity management they just it's one of those.
42:58
Feels very like it crosses over. Like when are we in identity
43:02
management? And when are we not and it's
43:05
when you're talking about the digital transformation, it's
43:07
just all gets Blended together but that's another episode I
43:12
wanted to just one point you made and then I'm going to pass
43:14
the Jeff because I want to hear his feedback on this as well.
43:19
But one point you made was around the compliance and kind
43:23
of that audit framework. And, you know, I spend some time
43:26
in my career, kind of in that. Space.
43:29
And it always seemed to me especially when it comes to
43:32
audit, right? It was about being able to
43:36
reverse-engineer the paper trail of what happened.
43:39
How did this account get access or gets shut off?
43:43
And I kind of feel like compliance is all about.
43:48
Do you have those controls? Do you know how things are
43:51
happening? And, and I kind of what I'm
43:54
afraid of with AI is that? It's all closed source.
43:58
Yes, I'm not saying it is but my fear is that, it becomes all
44:02
closed source and we don't really know how the decisions
44:06
are being made or why. I think what has to happen is
44:09
that that it needs to be predictable that given these set
44:15
of circumstances. Even without running it, through
44:17
the AI, I can tell you what the AI is going to spit out and if I
44:22
can't, I don't see how that can be audited or We can have trust
44:29
in that system because now, some proprietary blend that spits out
44:33
an answer. We don't know how it made that
44:35
decision. That's one of my biggest fears
44:37
and I you know, I don't know if you know let me pass the jeffing
44:41
kind of, you know, I want to know overall what you think AI
44:45
is impact is going to be from? I am.
44:47
But also with what I just said there, I don't think it's going
44:50
to have any impact at all whatsoever.
44:52
That's good. I am very bullish on.
44:54
I am as people probably will do. I think it's going to Had the
44:58
most impact on the IGA space things like Self Service,
45:03
context, being added to the data.
45:05
Because I think I think we can crunch the numbers and the data.
45:08
Now, the challenge is we can't put appropriate context around
45:12
it to give that information to somebody to say, hey, or do
45:15
something with this. And I'm thinking about real
45:17
people in the real world, Howard, you have 1,000 employees
45:21
in your organization. Here's what they have access to
45:23
is that appropriate. Mmm.
45:26
But if you had some sort of AI, That provide some context around
45:29
it and see, you know, you're able to delegate, you know
45:32
permissions and accesses in those decisions around to people
45:34
and have trust in that. And yeah, maybe I think the
45:37
actual battle is going to be the models themselves.
45:42
So you've got Google, you've got Facebook, you've got open a.i.
45:45
and I'm sure hundreds of other companies that are all
45:48
developing their own large language model.
45:52
I think that's where the battle is going to be fought because
45:55
we've already seen the very tip of that battle being started.
45:58
Between open a.i. and Google Google, barge had a disastrous
46:02
launch. It did not go.
46:03
Well cut data wrong right ruin restarting.
46:06
So we have, you know, Google with not a good showing and then
46:09
we've got open. I who really came out guns
46:13
blazing and they've got a they don't really have a product
46:15
though. It's basically just a text
46:17
immuno interface, but Microsoft, a Microsoft, they are a comb
46:21
investor of that, and they quickly integrated that into
46:24
being. So now we're seeing big, which
46:26
is codified afterthought. Search Market, all of a sudden
46:29
seeing these huge jumps in usage and it's pretty cool.
46:33
I will tell you, I was at a wedding this last weekend and we
46:38
used a i for part of that to do thank-you speeches to do things
46:43
like that. And it was pretty interesting,
46:46
you know, kind of last minute, kind of things are going to put
46:48
negocio, I'll just throw it into, you know, open it, high or
46:51
Bing or whatever may be. And I think that's where the
46:53
battle is actually gonna be fought.
46:55
And I wonder, I'm sure there will be licensing.
46:58
Of models, right? I think that's going to happen.
47:00
But I also think there's a lot of companies and you're seeing
47:01
it today that are very concerned about putting their data into a
47:04
model and being used for training purposes and the
47:07
security around that I think Microsoft is one of the ones
47:11
that I at least. I'm aware of where they are
47:12
saying okay. You know, we certainly have our
47:14
partnership with opening II but you're also going to have sort
47:17
of this private large language model that you can contribute
47:19
your own organizational and information into and it will be,
47:23
you know, as safe as anything else has within the Microsoft
47:25
environment OneDrive SharePoint, you know?
47:28
As good as that may be and I'm sure people have different pains
47:30
on that. So I think at some point that's
47:35
going to become the secret sauce for almost all vendors in almost
47:38
any space, but in the identities base.
47:40
And it would really surprise me that we don't see really massive
47:44
improvements in products like the IGA space over the next,
47:49
we'll call it three to five years, where a i all of a sudden
47:52
becomes the the interface of choice.
47:55
The you know, the the way that it's On vs.
47:59
Why I'm going to go into this interface and kind of configure
48:01
a connector and craft a workflow.
48:03
No. You're just going to tell the
48:05
thing. What you want to do in a natural
48:07
language and it's going to do it and it's going to know what you
48:10
mean based off of the log, right.
48:11
Language model and the combination of whatever Secret
48:14
Sauce is being applied by the vendor, to put the identity data
48:19
into context. So, I think that's where the
48:21
battles to be fought is not that will aiib there, but it will be
48:26
what version of it. It who's Ai and is it, you know,
48:31
is that model tweaked enough for the identity space to actually
48:34
be relevant? That's what I'm thinking I see
48:36
nodding heads. I know Jackie Howard and I feel
48:40
like you just the one thing I would add.
48:42
I agree with you and what keeps coming to mind is, you know,
48:46
like, in today's world it's like, don't sell my data
48:50
tomorrow's world, it's like, don't use my data because I feel
48:55
like the He ownership there's going to be concerns over the IP
49:01
ownership and privacy to, as you mentioned, but IP ownership to
49:05
the extent that your data goes into, you know, one of these
49:09
engines and then that is used for something else, right?
49:13
It gives an answer for something else and then who really is the
49:17
owner of that it's unclear. So we're going to move from,
49:22
don't sell my data to don't use my stick and people being really
49:27
I think careful about, you know, sort of where the lines are
49:32
going to get drawn but you're right it will absolutely Game
49:35
Change how how some of these like you know, we're talking
49:40
about compliance how that's handled going forward with with
49:44
IGA and just some of those areas.
49:46
It's going to be a game-changer. We're talking about master data
49:49
management. I think Master data management
49:52
is going to become the AI pool of data for a company and I'll
49:55
be just more important. And I think it's almost like a
49:57
Duration model where you Federated your your AI model to
50:02
another AI model and allow it to take advantage of whatever data
50:06
you've allowed your organization to collect, 20 years ago, maybe,
50:10
15 years ago. It was hey let's create data
50:12
lake. So let's use Hadoop and put
50:14
everything into one giant thing, right?
50:15
And we'll do a bunch of fancy reporting.
50:17
I think I think it's going to head that way on the AI side is
50:19
you're going to have like Master data management.
50:21
There's a new systems that are very good at tracking the data
50:24
and then you're going to Fetter rate that data somehow your AI,
50:27
whatever you want. Call it to another, you know,
50:30
lar large language model and that will help provide so don't
50:35
don't build the things that I've already been built, but you've
50:38
got your own information and that is critical to your
50:41
organization. How do you customize and tailor
50:44
parts of an AI to make it relevant for your organization?
50:47
Whether its internal or external use case?
50:49
I think that's it'll be interesting to see and I think
50:51
I'm just kind of pontificating here by seek sort of the spider
50:54
web of a bunch of interconnected a eyes.
50:57
And each of those is represents some data repository within a
51:03
network within an organization. That's leveraging, sort of a
51:06
shared model with customizations Howard.
51:09
I see that the eyebrow kind of twitching a little bit.
51:12
What do you think my crazy? No, I think it's well said, I
51:15
may think of you and Jim and Jake the metal tensions of that.
51:17
I think, is often overlooked not talked about enough, is the
51:20
training sets, right? Because the eyes a little more
51:23
open, the training system, remain bit, pretty much a black
51:25
box. And I think as you all Pointed
51:28
out, there's a challenge with that and then the least of which
51:30
is IP ownership copyright ownership licensing models.
51:35
So, I still think we're in the early days of the wild, wild
51:38
west from a Regulatory Compliance governance or must be
51:41
the early days of the internet. Right?
51:43
There was a group formed. Now known as the Berkman,
51:45
Berkman group over at Harvard that was back in the day known
51:47
as the center for internet, law and society.
51:51
And I think you're going to start seeing and maybe led by
51:53
academics, but I think you're going to start seeing groups
51:56
come together to start thinking about.
51:57
This animal granular way before it gets ahead of us, which way
52:00
the internet did 20 years ago or 30 years ago at this point.
52:03
Jim did I answer your question about AI because I know that you
52:06
always love to put me on the spot for that.
52:09
No, I do love to put you on the spot because you have a
52:13
different perspective than me, almost always.
52:16
So perfect opposites. All right, I think that's
52:19
probably a good spot. We're still friends so we can
52:21
leave the conversation as it is. Let's end on a lighter note and
52:25
totally something completely different at least.
52:27
For now I'm going to start with Jackie.
52:30
And then I'm going to go to Howard.
52:31
What is your most used Emoji GIF or mean that you use, you know,
52:37
on a daily or routine basis to get your point across God?
52:41
I, you know, I haven't been using emoji lately.
52:46
I'm a less-is-more kind of gal, so you're a K versus an okay.
52:51
I'm the K and XXOO and that's it.
52:57
What about you? So Jackie and I are from the
52:59
same generation. So I share, I have I have I have
53:02
a, I only used to emojis and they both tie for first, it's
53:05
either an heart when I'm communicating my kids or my
53:08
family or thumbs up, I'm just acknowledging.
53:10
Yeah, that's a good idea. So if you would ask me that
53:13
question, send years ago, they were emojis.
53:15
I might have more creative answer but regrettably I don't
53:19
Jim how about yourself. What's your most used Emoji?
53:21
More gifts. Probably either the the crying
53:24
laughing face, you know, basically, If you type, what I
53:29
do is, like, if I type something and then Emoji pops up, I decide
53:32
whether or not to use it. So a lot of times if I type A
53:34
LOL, that'll pop up, I'll send that the other one is the wink,
53:40
which is like, I could be like, Jeff the Chicago Bears suck the
53:44
ink and then it's like, you can't think that to personally
53:48
he winked that and I, and I and I am a fan.
53:51
So I know yes, they're not very good, but hopefully they'll be
53:53
better this year. I think, for me, it's that that
53:58
Shrugging Guy where he's like oh that's the one.
54:01
I pretty much use. So much all the time.
54:03
Doesn't matter who I'm talking to you.
54:05
It's the shrugging guy. Maybe that's just the state of
54:08
my mind as I don't know what the hell's going on around here
54:10
sometimes. All right, let's go ahead and
54:13
leave it there. Howard, and Jackie, you guys
54:15
have been great. Preciate, you spend some time
54:17
with us. We'll have links in our show
54:19
notes for people to connect with you guys on LinkedIn.
54:21
Learn more about 1414. Ventures at 14-14 ventures.com.
54:26
Definitely have a link to the market skate because I love that
54:28
periodic table that you guys do as well as links for, you know,
54:32
Jimmy myself to connect with on LinkedIn.
54:33
Don't forget identify verse coming up here and we're on all
54:37
the socials. So you'll see us on the web
54:39
idea, CA idac podcast. Dot-com idac podcasts on Twitter
54:44
at idea. See podcast at infosec dot
54:47
exchange on Macedon, I saw somewhere mastodons.
54:49
Make it easier to sign up, which is great, but they got to do
54:51
something about the names. It just, it's it's a pain.
54:55
So, and if you liked what you heard here, you know, share it
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with your friends. That's the the best and really
54:59
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55:02
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55:04
that way. So be sure to subscribe.
55:06
So you know, when new new episodes come out and with that,
55:08
we'll go and leave it for this week.
55:10
Thanks Howard. Jackie, thanks Jim and we'll
55:13
talk with everyone in the next one.
55:15
Thanks Jackson, guys. You've been listening to
55:18
Identity at the center. We hope you've enjoyed the show,
55:22
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55:26
but in the meantime, hit the website at identity at the
55:30
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55:36
See you next time on identity at the center,