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327. Divorce, Litigation, and the Nervous System: Why You Feel Like You’re Falling Apart · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are talking about something I see constantly with women we work with, and that is how profoundly stressful divorce litigation is on the nervous system.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: The women in our program, a different D-word, who are still in active litigation, are almost always the most dysregulated, meaning sleep issues, constant anxiety, feeling reactive to every email or court date.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So today we wanted to bring in someone who sees the legal side every single day.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Heather Quick is a returning guest and a Florida divorce attorney.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: She hosts the podcast Women Winning Divorce, which we love, and someone who deeply believes in supporting women, not just legally, but emotionally through this process.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, love.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorcee.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Heather, welcome back.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Sean.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am so thrilled to be back.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am really excited about what, you know, how we're going to talk about divorce in the law today because, you know, you and I have, we've podcasted together before, but we've not had like this conversation yet.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a phenomenon we see all the time, just like what a toll litigation takes on women.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So off the rip, from the legal side, what does divorce litigation actually look like for women day to day?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think people hear the word litigation, and not every divorce goes to litigation, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: But they don't necessarily understand what it means emotionally and then practically to be like getting divorced legally.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, right, it does, it can go in so many different ways.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes it may start one way, and we often have clients, I don't, I want this to be agreed upon.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I we want to agree to everything.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, frankly, that is what everybody wants.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's what I would want for them as well.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, sometimes what we have to do really, well, and a lot of times is really explain the whole process, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're saying, what does litigation mean?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna file it, and we might have some areas where we don't agree.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when you have an attorney, the whole point is somebody who you can trust who's gonna advise you like, all right, this is not a good deal, and you, you know, we should work towards a better better settlement offer.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so within that requires just a lot of documents, a lot of a lot of things that are really necessary that sometimes can be overwhelming for um, you know, women in in the divorce arena because they're like, but I just want to agree.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: We can't advise you unless we have understanding confirmation of the financials and the issues surrounding China.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that way then we can better advise.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it depends on what county in Florida, right?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them, you do have to go to court.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not adversarial, it's just you have to show up.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the judge looks at both of you, and this is my theory.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is not in the law.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, part of it is like why, right?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: They they do these things.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's order to get everybody in the same room.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the theory behind that is that when you know, husband, wife, and both attorneys are all together, it's more likely that they one will talk and two potentially settle the case and maybe make it more amicable.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always work.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there's, especially the first time, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so much emotions, it's charged, it's hard for our women clients often to be in that setting.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It feels intimidating because you're in a courtroom, but it's not meant to, but it may, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: We know sometimes we just have feelings that aren't what the reality of what's going on, but they're still your feelings.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with that.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I relate to that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I relate to a courtroom feeling like some sense of helplessness or something like that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is an authority that I am helpless around, or something like that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotta have something to do with my job.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, hey, anybody who can put us in jail, you gotta follow the rules and respect.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is there.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a whole language you don't know, a whole system, and it's it's not uh, oh, how are you doing today?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: You feeling good?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, like they've got so many people in in their line in the judge, like that day to see they may not make you feel um safe and comfortable and relaxed.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did I ever tell you the story about the time I accidentally called a judge a maggot?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, um, no, you did not.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was like 22, I was a college grad.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was working for the Department of Children and Families as a child abuse investigator and doing removals or whatever, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in judge's chambers like a lot, you know, semi-regularly.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he was showing me one day how he has like a back door to like escape the courthouse or whatever.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I meant to say that it was magic, and I said something, and I like just tripped over my words, and it sounded like I called him a magic.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: He was very good natured about it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: We chuckled.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, that's good.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes that can happen, right?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes not.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, you know, your turn in in that in that day, and these are where it's called case management, they call them all the different kinds of things.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's very procedural and usually a lot of people at one time.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, depending on maybe who was before you or really what's going on, you know, they might be in a bad mood.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: They might be kind of short-tempered.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that can unfortunately really affect sometimes many of the women.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh my gosh, I never want to go in front of that judge again.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very understandable for some people.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I like I compare it often legal to medical, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's for some people going into the medical system in the hospital is so much anxiety.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: White coat syndrome.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And overwhelming.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and once again, they have systems, they have procedures that are very different from your daily life.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: They have language that you don't understand, they talk really fast and very much, and you're like, wait a minute, this is my life.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Could you talk to me?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you've ever had that, it's not, they're not meaning anything negative towards you.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: It it just kind of happens.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it does.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where once they start and they're like, oh, that's litigation.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it can go an extreme.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's seeing, you know, where you're in a courtroom, where there's depositions and experts and all of that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's just there's a mediation.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: We are exchanging documents and mediation, and you really will only have very little um exposure to the judge in the courtroom.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be the spectrum, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is just, it gets it if you hold it up like, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous and scared.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that's normal.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do think it's helpful to be aware of it and look for things that can help you ease that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna talk so much more about that, I think, through this episode.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us about the moments in the legal process where you see your clients become the most overwhelmed, like the most.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So trial, you know, I was, I want to say trial, but you know, I gotta say it happens earlier.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: By the time we usually get to trial, they they're they're understanding the process.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, ideally, but they we have quite the relationship.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Our attorneys have been working them with them closely and our staff for, you know, probably nine months.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Takes a while till you get to that point.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's more of a rapport and a I think the very beginning, the amount of financial documentation, they feel very overwhelmed.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because still, it's in the beginning, and there's so much unknown.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there's as much as we try to prepare the client, we can prepare you for the process, what things to expect, but we don't know your husband.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't really know how they're gonna show up, you know, once they hire an attorney.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: That tells us a lot, but on on maybe.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: But so I think the most overwhelming is that first document request.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it many times, you know, and we try to prepare clients, like, listen, this is what we do.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have to do this.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes from the other side, they're like, they're attacking me and they want all my credit card statements.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's it is very standard.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are there patterns you see in how different women uh handle that stress differently?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you do you have like client archetypes like the woman who explodes or the woman who shuts down or the woman who internalizes, or do you see those patterns?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: All of those.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because it depends on your personality.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've we've had clients before, they're like, please, yeah, I don't read any of your emails.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, that's not helpful.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um, she's like, just the anxiety of seeing something come through.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we call them.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: We do try to understand, like, we have to communicate with you, and very often we need to send you things by email.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But some people are like, please call me first, give me a heads up.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: We can do that, or I just want text, or some people are like, just write it down.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, and then, yeah, some there's emotion, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: They take it out on their attorney and they're mad, even though we we typically go through what to expect and what will happen.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think one of the things that across the board, it's hard, you can only receive so much information at a time.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're gonna talk about that like in the nervous system, but like we give you a lot of information, we have conversations, um oftentimes they it doesn't.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so very often, clients spend a a lot more money on multiple conversations on the same thing.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to learn and receive a lot of the resources we provide, and and you know, we can't can't make you listen, we can't make you try to understand what we're doing.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be very, a very counterproductive way to this gives me ideas, friend.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: This gives me ideas.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, stay tuned.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so you're not just an attorney, but you also are yoga trained.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, I did that.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, and so you're very supportive of nervous system wellness, you understand mental health, right?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And supportive of therapy for your clients.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: What made you realize that having emotional support or those types of resources makes a different or difference or matters in a legal case?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: It matters so much, and it is it's as important as having an attorney.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And because, and you and I have talked about this before, we all have our roles.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I've been doing this a very long time, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: We have I have a lot of experience, a lot of resources that have worked for me over the years, but I am not a trained therapist.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they may, and sometimes my clients, you know, in the past will be like, I just want to talk to you.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I understand, and I, you know, I really don't appreciate it because I don't think it's the best.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because my advice is based on what is for you legally.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when you don't have that right person, and sometimes your family and friends are not the best help for you, frankly.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: They make our um many of our cases much worse because they're not one being objective.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they're telling you what you want to hear, and they're maybe telling you to fight and be more difficult because of their emotional attachment to what's going on, and it's not in your best interest at all.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you see nervous system dysregulation look like in a client meeting?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how can someone tell that they're too activated to make a good decision in a client?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I bet you could tell, you could spot it, right?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I bet you could, if people could receive the feedback, I would guess you could call it set like meeting by meeting.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, they'll interrupt you constantly and they they just won't listen.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I I started some meetings last week, not not with clients, but I think I'm gonna, you know, ask my attorneys to try it because they were meeting with me, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they come in to meet the boss and people are like, oh, keyed up, what's gonna be about?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: What's gonna be about?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so we did the exercise of close their eyes, some deep breathing, and focus on something they're grateful for, and then bring them back because it just immediately, by thinking that, allows them to receive.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I really wanted to have a very casual conversation, you know, it was a yeah, but you gotta help get somebody ready to receive that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not always available every time.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why it's so important for clients to understand how they can do that themselves.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not gonna be something that as attorneys, we're gonna do before we go into the courtroom with you.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: We are we are working, we are so lasered on what we need to do for you, that we aren't there for the emotional side in that setting.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't want us there because then we're not in the zone of what we're there to accomplish.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Such a good point.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tool for the job, tool for the job.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, let's circle back around to this idea, baby, that I just had a minute ago.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things we've noticed in our community is that women who have support around them, whether it's, you know, therapy, but especially a group, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like the women who are in our group coaching program and they have this intimate group of women to move through the legal process with, they seem to move through litigation more steadily.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see that with your clients?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: That when they have a support system that is really helping them tackle that strategically, not just like you said, family and friends, but like good clinical support.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you notice that those clients are more steady?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because now they have the tools and they can understand and appreciate that is something I need to talk to my therapist about, my coach about.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I recognize that, and it's not easy, but they do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, oftentimes, even say, you know, it's easier to be like, oh, my financial person, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, and I'll we'll talk to them and I'll say, no, don't pay off all the debt before we file for divorce.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's the worst.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's terrible.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: By saying, well, they're filing divorce.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's half and half.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I she might pay it all and think she's getting like the savings, but then that gets split too.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So strategically, there will be things, and again, it's best to have those conversations because then you can learn those tools.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like whether it's the tapping, whether it's the breathing, whether the you know you need to wake up, you know, two hours early, go for a run or a walk, and then get to the courthouse 30 minutes early, or the mediation, or even the attorney's office, sit in your car and do what can get you ready to receive and make decisions.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so much better.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ready to receive.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: How cool would it be for your attorneys to be able to talk to our coaches to say, please help so-and-so with XYZ?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: How cool would it be to like bridge all of that together?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it would help the client so much.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: It would help these women because one, we do, I mean, we want to get you to obviously to the conclusion of your divorce, but we really want more than that.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: We want that's just a springboard to your whole life.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Women winning divorce.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to win and and and really recognize this is a wonderful opportunity that you know you have to begin your life again.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, because then maybe we can help, you know, with things where you get stuck because it happens in the story.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, something that sometimes women I've had this experience, and I know other attorneys, they tell you the same thing again and again and again.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as attorneys, and I'm not saying all of them, but I'm telling you the ones in our we know how to listen.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: We know how to listen, receive, document, and then move on and stay focused on what we need to.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't need to tell us the same thing again and again and again.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when that happens, that's very much a trauma loop, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's the brain can't, it's stuck in internal family systems, we call it stuck in a manager or firefighter part, like it's profound nervous system shutdown.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like the brain can't, like you said, receive and it's stuck in fight, flight, freeze, and that's that loop.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really fascinating.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you could give one piece of advice to a woman who's about to enter litigation, what would you want her to have in place before the process starts?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, people all of the time say, Oh, okay, get all these finances together.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would say get your do you have some type of support for your mental health?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a practice?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be yoga, it can be, you know, tennis, it can be running, it can be walking, it can be swimming.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Something that allows your mind to rest a little so that you can just and I believe highly in physical activity.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because it discharges all of that built-up tension and stress and anger and fear from the body.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I would I really recommend that quite a bit because that's a way, if you know you've got that, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you know you got that, you can go to when you're overwhelmed.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: My mom used to jog run, I think probably during after the divorce mostly.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like the first time it was a block.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she needed some type of outlet.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: We had no money, so she bought a pair of shoes and you know, it was pretty easy.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it gave her time to process and and go.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when sometimes when it's hard, you're only thinking about that next breath, that next step.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, and that and that has always worked for me.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was a you know, jogger, I would say I wasn't a runner, I'm not fast, you know, during law school and during times when I I like it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I had to focus on.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Same with yoga, it's just the breath, the next pose.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's no time, it gets the noise out, even if only for a little bit.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I find that to be extremely helpful.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that do get something like that in place that allows your mind to quiet, whatever that is.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: If it's meditation, great.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I do think the physical activity helps as well.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: To help women, it's essential.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you have to pair at least early on in the process, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to pair that physical with the like meditation alone for women, it's not the right fit at that stage, right?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's too much noise, like you said.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been, we've just kicked off a grief series over here on Dear Divorce Diary.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things we've been talking about in that series is that divorce grief is different than the grief that goes with death because the relationship keeps resurfacing through court dates, emails, parenting decisions.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see that?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm sure you do, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: But talk about that sort of prolonged emotional exposure and the difficulty processing the grief because it's like there seems to be no endpoint.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And did you see that in your own family system, even?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, you for our clients, yes.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know, I mean, everybody wants it done, but it feels for that for many women, it feels like their husband doesn't.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I they do.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um when will it end?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And as, you know, the way I see it, as attorneys, we our job is to solve problems and to help you.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and there are some things we are unable to.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, eventually it'll get to an end.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like we know how to get that to an end, but we can't make him stop doing certain things, and that can be frustrating for our clients.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: They want us to do that in ways that we just, you know, we we aren't able to in the way they'd like, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like, you know, you've been married and all this took a many, many years to get there.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna take that long to untangle, but it it's not uh a magic thing that we can do that quickly, unfortunately.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where they gotta have the help and the therapy because they the loop.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then whether it's it and and I see it both the same level of trauma, whether it's about the finances or the children or the pets, like whatever it's it's the triggers that take you back and back.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and every time they're taking us back, they're doing this, and it's it can be really hard because the clients kind of feel like they're not moving forward.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the we work really hard to strategize how to move forward.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and sometimes, you know, you you kind of get looped in.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: In the court system, I think it can be challenging.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think is why they keep looping back because there's not, you know, we all think we have control, and then you really, really finally have no control over anything.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this can be a very stressful process to see.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you hire an attorney, you're like, well, you should be in control of it all.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like we we are there are some things that are in our lane, and then some things, you know, the timing, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's only 30 days to respond.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then they ask for more time.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if we say no, we're not gonna get that.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've gotta be reasonable.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to, you know, and then we have to do that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have to imagine that you that look that you especially, right, get a bad rap sometimes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, in any industry, there are people who are not ethical or who take advantage, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I know how passionate you are about women winning divorced, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta think you get a bad rap a lot of times.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like that we accidentally blame you for X, Y, Z, right?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: When it really is so much is out of our control.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So much, like if your ex, if you and your ex were good at problem solving together, you probably wouldn't be getting divorced.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's just playing out at another level and you get blamed.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you ever feel that way?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get un I think so.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the way I and I've done a lot of work, so I know I need to hold space.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And something I haven't said this in a while to my attorneys, but I used to all the time, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I was like, listen, it's really, you know, when we do a great job and our clients love us, please understand that that's all about them and the way they feel.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when something doesn't go their way and they are so angry with us, again, it's not about us, it is the way they feel.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so don't take the good personally, and that'll help you not take the bad personally.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: We all do because we want to win and we want to achieve your goals all the time.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and the odds are, you know, we get really close if if you're really, you know, open and honest with us about where you want to go.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: You get really close.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: We do.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's it's just hard because it's our, you know, for these women, it is their life, it's their everything and their identity wrapped around being a wife, a mother, and and the the movement of that, it's it's difficult.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we do understand, and we're here to walk alongside of you.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and I wish we, you know, could wave a magic wand and do all that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes really they just don't like what we have to say because we do have to tell them the reality of the situation and the law, and that's not always what they want to hear.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: You just said something so important, and it's been a huge part of what we've talked about in our grief series as it's unfolding, which is the identity rupture, the collapse of an identity, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not something you can work out through the legal process or right, it's a journey.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Rebuilding an identity and really getting in touch with yourself is a journey.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly the work they do with you is a step in that journey because you're asking them questions about the life that they want after this marriage and forcing them to answer those questions to an extent, right?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: To think about things that are are gonna be different and might be something, you know, well, I don't want to be anything other than this, right?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a stay-at-home mom, and that's what I am, and that's what I do.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that that might not be the reality of what's coming next.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe you didn't plan that and that wasn't what y'all agreed to, and I recognize that, and you know, and kind of it it ties in because you you're talking about within the grief sees series, and it's more hurtful.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: This this might sound cold, it's almost more hort hurtful in the divorce than if he had died, which can happen, because now you're still feeling that oh, he's making these decisions and he's going back on his word as to what we agreed to.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And but if that were to happen tomorrow, what would you you'd have to do a lot of things, more likely than not, to make sure you guys are supported and yeah, and yeah, and that would be really hard, but you would do it, you would do it, and and you wouldn't, you might feel blame them, but it doesn't matter, like you still have to do it.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I try to relate it that way sometimes because you know, and even when women are like, I don't know if I want to do this, I mean, please recognize he may not be on the same page that the marriage isn't working, but he could get there soon and he could file for divorce.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so at any time, you don't have control over those kind of things.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and so understanding that it might happen even if you're not ready for it, and life may change, but you can make it for the better, and you can make this something happening for you, not to you and for your children.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of that, and that's hard.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: That is hard to wrap your head around sometimes, and it's I don't know if it's easier.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe sometimes it's comfortable to be in the feelings and be blaming and angry, and sometimes anger is a productive emotion.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um better than sad, it gets us moving in direction, but then we want to, you know, grow beyond that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Move past that also, yes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I had this super random question that I didn't have planned.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: But so like I'm totally putting you on the spot.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen a handful of women really grapple with maybe regretting divorce like way down the road, or like being afraid they made a mistake.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe because they thought divorce was gonna solve something or be a relief.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they're in the sort of rebuilding and identity piece and realizing, like, oh shit, like I'm deep in this self-work, and this a lot of this was my stuff, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like my stuff, and I was you know, just really taking inventory.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And do you ever see people who are getting divorced and you're like, these people should not be getting divorced?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I tend to think that if you went through all of that, like if you got all the way through to a divorce and like the that wasn't a mistake, like that happened, like it's a hard thing to do to get divorced.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you ever see women where like, nope, she shouldn't, she shouldn't be getting divorced.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I haven't like, you know, right, where the things they aren't serving them, maybe, you know, the the reason why maybe, but you know, I just don't get I haven't ever really said, I don't think this is something you should do.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've maybe said, you know, when they have like this is where I want it, what I want, I might say that that's not gonna get this isn't gonna get you that, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um like you have an unreasonable expectation of what this divorce is.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so we've got to be, you know, clear on what is most likely.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean I we won't try, but you know, you have to kind of have that.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think why I don't is because even if later, maybe later on you're worried about regret, but unless you're willing to do the work now and you want to you're unable to show up as that person, right?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're showing up as how you are.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think for a lot of people, they do a lot of work and they do have a lot of growth, their partner doesn't go with them on that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe then it doesn't work.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, sometimes, you know, maybe they did, but the reality is you weren't ready to see it when you were in that marriage.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So later you may realize, hey, he was a really decent husband, he's a good father, but he wasn't for me at that time.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I think that's wonderful growth.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then thankfully, if you can see that, you're not repeating your same patterns.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would really like the women who have ever sat with, like, man, did I make the wrong choice to find a way to turn it into gratitude for what was, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: To have it be sort of like this, wow, I can really see the value in that I had this experience with this person or the things that this person really did bring to the table.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: I believe very strongly that like calls to like.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so who you attracted when you first got married is probably not gonna be who you're gonna attract after you do all the work.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very rare for people to do that level of work together.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know you see that as a marriage therapist.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why I have a divorce broadcast.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's just so rare for both people to be willing to do the level of work that it takes to become new people together.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: It takes commitment and work and and self-reflection, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's like I think we were talking about the last time.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you gotta look in the mirror and be like, ooh, I had a big part in what's not, I have a big part in what's not working.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Am I willing to adjust rather than just say it's you?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, and then like we've talked about on the other podcast, and you talk about, you know, it you you go back and what was your family board, and how did things go there, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You just learned a certain way of behavior.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are you willing to change it or do you want to keep, you know, beating against the wall what you're doing?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's it's it it's work that not everybody is willing to do together.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Anything from today's conversation that's just like sparked in your brain that you're like, oh, and we must add this.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that, you know, for women in the in the divorce, in the journey, thinking about it, you know, one thing is they can do it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can do it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Don't please don't uh underestimate the you know the value of the mental health.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe if you could do, you know, always sometimes they come to us and they're like, well, we're gonna try X, Y, Z.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: First, I don't know if I'm ready for a divorce, which, you know, I know in their side, they know they're ready.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm all for check off the things on the boxes because one, there's really never a downside when you find the right therapist and you you do the work because it could change it.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they don't go, at least you're working on yourself, which is gonna help you be better prepared for the divorce and most importantly, better prepared for your life afterwards.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think that too often, you know, they they don't value it as, oh, but I need to hire you.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean, you do need both.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do both.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I would guess that both bills end up being cheaper if you have really strong, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you have like a really strong treatment team and you have a really strong legal team, both bills end up being cheaper because it's more efficient, it's smoother, it's you know what I mean?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like And you're you are better for it because as women, we all, you know, you have to be willing to invest in yourself and you know, um and look at like look at everything else, right?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's shocking sometimes.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at your bank statement, you're like, where am I, where's all this money going?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe making an effort to be like, I'm gonna prioritize this for me, the best like therapist I can find and coach, the best attorney that I can find.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that way, that is an investment in myself that will reap the benefits forever.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're willing to do it and do the work with both, right?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to the attorney that you've paid that you trust, listen to your therapist, like do all those things.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll be, you know, it'll end up being a great investment over time.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: If only we were willing to invest in our like hearts and souls and minds as much as we're willing to invest in our faces.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I hear you.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's so true.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and our handbags and shoes.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so I will I will be the first to say that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm right there with you.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Where would you prefer women to find you?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where's your favorite place for women to go?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: To like, oh Heather, she sounds like the best attorney.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to go be in touch with her.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where would you?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Please visit our website, FloridaWomen's Law Group.com.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: We have so many resources on there that can lead you to so many things.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: We also the podcast too.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: The podcast is the goal of the podcast is really to provide you good content to help you understand what you're facing.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's, I think three and a half years now, like there's a lot on there for women, and our site does too.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: It'll lead you to videos and things to read better than I know everybody likes the AI on Google, but go to our site to really get more information.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love AI, it is so helpful, and it makes a ton of mistakes, and I catch them every day.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and oh, and um, on Amazon, I've got several books.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: The newest book is Unbreakable Divorce.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: What did I didn't notice?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Here it is.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Here, here it is.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's um, oh my goodness.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um I need this book.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna buy it today.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is great.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: We are working on getting it on audio, but it's available on ebook or on Amazon.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um that just educating yourself is what I feel like can really help you know what's coming.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely, Dawn.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love being on your podcast and I love uh, you know, talking about these things to help women.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find all of Heather's info in the show notes.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: We love you so much.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Peace.