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Kevin Lardner, Rainforest Alliance (Podcasthon Episode!) · Coffee People Podcast

0:00
Hey everyone, thank you for showing up for another episode
0:02
of the Coffee People podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Wolt.
0:06
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We certainly appreciate it. Thank you for the support.
0:35
Before we get started, you should know that we're
0:37
participating, or at least trying to participate in Podcast
0:40
On, a global charity podcasting event.
0:43
The goal of Podcast On is to draw attention to charities that
0:47
podcasters support. This episode is dedicated to the
0:50
Rainforest Alliance. You can find the link to our
0:53
fundraising page in this podcast.
0:54
Show notes. By partnering with farmers,
0:57
businesses, government entities, and much more, the Rainforest
1:00
Alliance seeks to mitigate the effects of climate change and
1:03
support forest communities. The communities that are
1:06
impacted are often in coffee producing countries, and their
1:10
mission overlaps with the needs of many coffee farmers.
1:13
We've invited the Rainforest Alliance's Senior Relationship
1:16
Manager with a focus on coffee trade, Kevin Lardner, onto the
1:19
show. Please support your favorite
1:21
charities when you can. The link to our fundraising
1:24
effort is in our show notes and on our website Rose to
1:27
westcoast.com and now on to the show.
1:46
Hey there everyone. Welcome to the Coffee People
1:48
podcast. Once again, I'm your host, Ryan
1:50
Wolf. The show is presented by Rostar
1:53
Coffee Packaging. You can find them online at
1:56
rostar.com. The Coffee People podcast is
1:59
part of our Roast West Coast Coffee network.
2:01
You can go to roastwestcoast.com to find recaps of this show, our
2:05
Coffee Smarter podcast and so much more.
2:08
If you haven't had a cup of coffee yet, now would be a good
2:12
time to get one. Our guest on this special
2:14
podcast on episode is Kevin Lardner from the Rainforest
2:18
Alliance. You can find the Rainforest
2:20
Alliance online at rainforest-alliance.org.
2:24
And I actually started a little Coffee People fundraising page.
2:27
You can find both of those links in this podcast Show notes.
2:31
Kevin, welcome to the Coffee People podcast.
2:33
I'm glad you're here. Thanks, Ryan.
2:36
Happy to be here. I should point out I'm drinking
2:41
a blend of Ethiopian and Colombian coffees today.
2:45
I'm assuming at some point we're going to talk about where in the
2:47
world Rainforest Alliance engages, and I'm guessing
2:51
there'll be at least something in that in that arena.
2:54
You have a long title. I didn't say it in the intro on
2:58
purpose because I wasn't quite sure exactly where to go with
3:00
it. It's kind of a a dual title.
3:03
What is it that you do at the Rainforest Alliance?
3:06
Yeah, sure it is. It is a little long, maybe
3:08
that's something I need to, to remedy.
3:11
But effectively my work is oriented around our
3:13
certification program. You know, that's the bulk of the
3:15
work that I do. A lot of my orientation is, is,
3:19
is with the, the trade side of the supply chain.
3:23
So globally we have a, a bulk of RA certified coffee is, is
3:28
certified with the support of of multinational trading companies.
3:32
And many of these companies have, I've been working with
3:35
certification for decades, not only with the Rainforest
3:37
Alliance, but also with other certifications.
3:40
And my work is kind of nested with them.
3:43
So I've been here at RA for about two years and recently my
3:48
focus has shifted more towards supply and demand in, in Latin
3:52
America primarily. So that's that's why it's kind
3:55
of split up like this. But really I think about it is
3:58
is kind of nested around certification, other topics
4:01
related to sustainability and coffee.
4:05
The idea that the Rainforest Alliance would even have someone
4:09
who has a focus on coffee was news to me.
4:13
You know when I was looking for coffee adjacent efforts to
4:17
support for this podcast on event which is like a global
4:21
charity awareness initiative. Rainforest Alliance wasn't the
4:24
1st place I looked. It was actually recommended to
4:26
me by someone else. So I'm wondering if you can give
4:28
us a little bit of an overview on, you know, the Rainforest
4:32
Alliance and then how how coffee is connected into that world.
4:37
This is a great question and it's also related in some ways
4:40
to my own path towards the Rainforest Alliance or RA as as
4:44
many of us call it in the, in the trade.
4:47
You know, RA is an international non profit organization or an
4:51
NGO. You know, I think fundamentally
4:54
the, the objective of the, the organization is to try and
4:57
harmonize the, the, the communities that, that produce a
5:01
lot of agriculture commodities globally, including coffee, but
5:05
also others. And to kind of harmonize the
5:10
people and, and the, the, the nature in, in which these, these
5:13
commodities are produced to try and ensure that, you know, these
5:17
various commodities, including coffee can be grown in a
5:19
sustainable way well into the future.
5:22
You know, RA has been around for over 20 years working in coffee.
5:27
It's in our DNA. The Rainforest Alliance also
5:30
merged with OOTS, which may be familiar to, to some members of
5:34
the audience, which was another sustainability certification
5:38
that was very active in the coffee sector prior to the
5:40
merger. Many of my colleagues at RA are
5:44
former Ootsies. I remember that.
5:47
Little cake I. Feel like I remember that.
5:49
Seeing that and so you know we are touching on over 7 million
5:56
farmers globally and farm workers through our
5:59
certification programming. We have over 7000 companies that
6:04
are working with the Rainforest Alliance likewise on on
6:08
uncertified supply chains and in other areas.
6:12
So we have, we have a strong global reach, but coffee is
6:15
certainly in our DNA across a variety of different origins and
6:22
in in destination countries as well where you can kind of see
6:26
the the Rainforest Alliance frog on a bag of coffee at your local
6:29
Whole Foods or Target or wherever.
6:34
It's one of the better charity logos out there.
6:37
Yeah, we're very, we're very, very fond of our frogs.
6:42
You, you briefly mentioned it, that you know, your background,
6:46
you've been with Rainforest Alliance two years, but you have
6:48
a, a different background in coffee.
6:50
And that was part of this, this journey.
6:52
I want to get into the details about the certification and why
6:56
that matters and what it means exactly.
6:58
But before I do, I'm wondering if you could share a little bit
7:01
more about your, your coffee path.
7:04
You know, when I set up this this podcast with you and I
7:09
can't remember if I reached out to, you know, the team there,
7:13
they reached out to me after a few emails.
7:15
I was I wasn't expecting you to have such a long history and
7:18
specialty. How did you get started with
7:20
coffee? Do you have a memory that kind
7:21
of got you down started down that path and and how did it get
7:25
you to here? Yeah, I mean, this will probably
7:27
resonate with the audience, but you know, my my path is I in
7:30
some ways it's not that unique. You know, like I was a broke
7:33
college student and I needed cash.
7:36
And so I walked into a coffee shop where I was going every day
7:39
to get a coffee before class and, and got a job.
7:43
Eventually I started working at another coffee bar.
7:46
We'll still a student that was that was serving Intelligentsia
7:48
coffee. This was an Urbana downstate
7:50
Illinois, basically, you know, and one thing led to another,
7:56
right? You know, I, I had these in
7:58
hindsight, really, really fortunate opportunities to head
8:01
up to Chicago to visit Intelligentsia's roasting works,
8:05
meet with the team there, learn more about specialty coffee, the
8:08
work they were doing. You know, this was over 10 years
8:11
ago, but I still didn't know what I wanted to do
8:14
professionally. You know, I had this passion for
8:17
coffee. I liked the, the, the, the
8:19
narrative surrounding direct trade.
8:22
I, I think it was resonating with me at the time, but I maybe
8:24
didn't really comprehend either the work that was going into
8:28
facilitating these connections or, you know, or the complexity
8:34
that was embedded within does not work.
8:36
So it was something that I was curious about.
8:39
Ultimately I went back to school though.
8:41
I actually moved to the UK. So I was at a, a small school in
8:45
central London that was really oriented around, I guess like
8:49
the non West and I was studying a variety of different topics
8:52
related to international relations.
8:54
I was thinking about this kind of pathway, International
8:58
Development, maybe sustainability, you know, but I
9:03
wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And again, I did what I'd done
9:06
before. I stumbled into a local coffee
9:07
bar in central London and got a job.
9:11
And, you know, before you know it, I found myself more
9:14
interested in the coffee bar than than in the library.
9:18
Eventually I, once I finished my degree, I moved back to the
9:21
States, you know, with this kind of strong sense of maybe
9:25
nostalgia for the London coffee scene.
9:27
I mean, this was 2014. There was new coffee bars
9:29
opening everywhere, new rosaries.
9:33
You know, I'd go hang out with our team at Square Mile in East
9:36
London and, you know, taste amazing coffee and is really eye
9:41
opening, right. And so I wanted to come back and
9:43
I wanted to do something similar in my hometown in Chicago.
9:47
And so I had an opportunity to work on a new coffee bar back
9:51
then. Yeah, that's, that's kind of how
9:53
how how it went so special to really kind of forged at least
9:56
my early passion for for coffee. A lot of that was driven by, you
10:01
know, the sensory side. Also, just the thrill of working
10:05
again in the bar during a busy rush and preparing a lot of
10:08
coffee and, you know, seeing the same faces every day and making
10:11
them smile and, and really spreading the joy that I was
10:14
seeing in the coffee with these communities.
10:17
So that that was kind of where things started and how my path
10:19
was kind of forged. You ended up working your way
10:24
into a couple of different roles, and intelligentsia in
10:27
particular. You I'm doing.
10:29
This a little bit from memory here, but I believe took out
10:31
some challenges in buying and some and some bigger picture
10:34
roles than being a barista, which is more, you know, the in
10:39
the moment we got to get this. This is done to serve the
10:41
customer from there. What made you think I want
10:45
something different? I want to incorporate the
10:48
sustainability into my life. And how did that bring you to
10:51
Rainforest Alliance? You know, like I mentioned at
10:54
the start of my little monologue, you know,
10:57
intelligentsia has always been close to my heart.
10:59
I think that's that's true for a lot of us who've kind of come
11:02
around through specialty coffee and they've kind of grown up
11:06
enamored with the work that Intelli has done over decades
11:08
also in the sector. In that sense, you know, I had
11:12
this initial opportunity to join the sales team at Intelligencia.
11:16
I thought be an interesting way to move up within the sector and
11:20
build some new connections, but also to learn, you know, I think
11:23
fundamentally to have more exposure to the business model
11:25
to see how I could personally play a part in the mission that
11:29
was direct trade. That's something that resonated
11:33
with me then and I think still does some of my moves and telly
11:37
were quite pragmatic. You know, there was, I was there
11:40
during during COVID, which is a very dynamic time for, for
11:45
coffee in general, certainly in specialty coffee.
11:48
You know, I had some big clients who were buying a lot of coffee.
11:53
You know, a lot of that coffee came from Brazil in particular.
11:57
And in in many ways, I think some more of my exposure to the
12:02
green coffee side of our supply chain emanated from just
12:05
pragmatic need, you know, like people needed coffee.
12:08
We also had a frost that happened back then, which led to
12:12
supply constraints and a lot of stressors in our supply chain.
12:15
So, you know, having the opportunity to meet with more
12:19
exporters to understand more where intelligents use coffee
12:22
was coming from was was eye opening.
12:25
And I was fortunate back then to have leaders within that
12:29
business who gave me some opportunities to become more
12:32
embedded in that work and to travel to Brazil to meet with
12:35
some of these exporters, cup coffee and and help with the
12:39
purchasing. So that was that was kind of how
12:43
the work came about for me. And of course, you know, I
12:47
always had a strong intellectual curiosity.
12:50
I wanted to see to see the farms and to, to meet some of the
12:54
people who are producing the the coffee that I was selling to to
12:57
my customers because I I felt it would, it would help to
13:02
strengthen all those relationships in time.
13:06
The Rainforest Alliance certification that we mentioned
13:10
earlier, what is that exactly? And you know what does it mean
13:14
when I see that on the bag? So the, the Rainforest Alliance
13:18
certification is a, it's a sustainability standard.
13:21
So this is not dissimilar to to other certifications that your
13:25
listeners might be familiar with.
13:27
Fair trade, fair trade US. We also have organic
13:30
certifications that are quite common in the US in coffee.
13:33
You'll see the seals on a package when you go to the
13:36
grocery store, sometimes to your local coffee bar.
13:39
What RA's standard is communicates or effectively
13:43
attempts to communicate to to consumers is that the the
13:47
commodity in that bag is sustainably produced.
13:52
Basically the agriculture practices that are linked to the
13:54
commodity inside the package is sustainable.
13:57
And that's a fundamental claim that we seek to communicate with
14:00
the certification program. The current iteration of our
14:05
standard, we call it the sustainable agriculture standard
14:09
for the SAS for short. Sometimes we use in discussions
14:13
with with companies, it's, it's a long list of criteria.
14:17
There's a farm standard and there's a supply chain standard.
14:20
So depending on basically your orientation within the coffee
14:23
trade, you might have the farm requirements or the supply chain
14:26
requirements applicable to you, right.
14:29
But most of the certificate holders we have are, are farms
14:33
and many of these are small holder farms, so maybe less than
14:36
than a couple of hectares. You know, they under, they
14:40
undergo this process to be audited effectively against
14:43
these criteria. So there's different chapters.
14:45
They're related to environmental criteria, human rights criteria,
14:49
governance, or kind of like the management practices on the farm
14:53
itself that can allow them to facilitate this claim.
14:57
The last component or one, I shouldn't say the last
15:00
component, but an important component of this pie is the
15:04
auditing process itself. So it's a, it's a third party
15:08
audit. So what this means is that a
15:10
certification body, which is kind of an external and
15:13
uninterested counterparty is hired to come in and to audit
15:18
against the criteria in, in our standard.
15:21
And so that's where the credibility and the strength of
15:23
the sustainability claim comes from in the end, because this,
15:27
this uninterested counterparty is coming in.
15:30
They're, they're reviewing the, the performance effectively
15:34
against the, the standard itself, which is what
15:38
facilitates the claim. And so this is what gives
15:40
consumers the the confidence that the commodity and, you
15:44
know, is, is sustainably produced and so that the coffee
15:47
is, is sustainable. You know, there there's a third
15:51
party comparing what is happening on the ground to the
15:55
certification you guys have developed, to the standards
15:57
you've developed. Money is always in play here.
16:03
The coffee market is wildly dependent on the, you know, or
16:07
wildly impactful economy. You mentioned small farmers, and
16:12
that's something I kind of was like, oh, that's interesting.
16:16
What does this cost the farm? You know what?
16:19
You know, if I'm a small farmer and I can't, you know, my local
16:22
farmer here in San Diego doesn't have organic certification.
16:26
I know he's growing things sort of, you know, organically
16:28
because we've discussed it. You know, he's open to letting
16:31
people visit his farm, but he doesn't want to pay for the
16:33
certification. How do you, how do you create a
16:37
system in which farmers, especially small ones, can be
16:41
engaged in this way and get, you know, get the advantage of
16:44
having this label on their bag or on their product?
16:48
This is a good question and I'm glad you asked it because it's
16:50
kind of a, it's a common constraint among certifications
16:53
because precisely because this auditing process is expensive,
16:57
you know, you're talking about human capacity and, and people
17:02
actually going out into the field and, and checking things.
17:04
You know, often times in very rural communities, it's not so
17:08
difficult. It's not so easy, pardon me, in
17:10
some cases, to, to, to reach and, and to spend the time
17:13
that's needed in order to go through a very, a very detailed
17:18
list of criteria like our standard.
17:20
It's not something that's lost on us.
17:22
It's, it's also been a challenge, I think that a lot of
17:26
third party certification schemes have had to, to manage
17:30
over the years. And there's a few mechanisms in
17:33
play that allow us to reach more small holders.
17:37
You'll see, for example, in the list of RA certificate holders,
17:40
many, many of them are cooperatives.
17:43
So, for example, you know, in in countries like Brazil, Colombia,
17:48
I'll go across Central America, you'll see large cooperatives
17:52
organizations who manage certification on behalf of the
17:56
farms that are party to their certifications, their their
18:00
license effectively. And you'll see a lot of groups
18:02
organized this way, this way, you know, with the Co-op model
18:06
in play, those costs can be distributed across the big group
18:10
in in a way. And then central administration
18:13
of the certificate is, is really helpful because there's a lot of
18:16
administration that's required on things like traceability in
18:21
order to maintain the chain of custody of a container of coffee
18:24
from, you know, point A to point B.
18:26
It requires a great deal of steps that are sometimes not
18:29
necessarily super clear to people who are outside the
18:34
sector or not working in this stuff day-to-day, but which does
18:38
require a lot of deliberate effort.
18:39
So that's that's one kind of aggregation model that we see in
18:43
play that can help. Of course, we also see exporters
18:47
playing a really significant role in this as well.
18:50
This is an area where some of my work becomes relevant precisely
18:55
because you know, these these exporters, you know, trade,
18:58
trade organizations effectively help to also to to aggregate
19:03
sometimes small farmers or otherwise maybe completely
19:06
disaggregated. They might not even have strong
19:09
access to to markets or or buyers in destination countries.
19:13
And if they do have them, sometimes those those
19:16
relationships can be fraught by things that are completely
19:20
outside our control. For example, right now the
19:23
coffee market is undergoing a really great period of
19:26
volatility, as I'm sure you've seen.
19:28
You know, we're seeing sometimes 20 cent intraday swings in the
19:32
sea market. Like from my point of view, this
19:35
is a really, really difficult operating environment.
19:38
You know, you're trying to trade, trade coffee at scale.
19:41
So all of which is to say it, it is a challenge with
19:45
certification. I think it's also an opportunity
19:48
for for improvement. And, you know, one area in which
19:53
the Rainforest Alliance as a standard setter, as a
19:56
certification scheme, reacts to volatility, increased coffee
20:00
prices sometimes, is by, you know, making sure that we're
20:03
being present in conversations with our certificate holders.
20:07
Soliciting feedback from them on supply, on demand, what's
20:10
happening in the market, where do we see more opportunities for
20:14
engagement or investment to help to facilitate the the demand
20:18
that's or the the supply necessary to meet consumer
20:21
demand on certified commodities, which is continuing to grow.
20:25
Something that's going to run through my head here for a
20:27
minute or two. And that is, you know, when I
20:29
donate my 50 bucks or my 100 bucks or whatever, just as an
20:32
individual to the Rainforest Alliance, hearing about that
20:36
certification, the efforts and, and the need to in some cases
20:40
Co-op or, or, you know, figure out how the farmer is going to
20:44
afford this or the export is going to afford it.
20:47
Is there any sort of scholarship programming or any sort of
20:50
bucket that coffee people like me can be like, hey, this is
20:53
kind of what I want to support. I was just, this might be a
20:56
little bit off base, but I was thinking to myself, if I can, if
21:00
I could create a kind of a drip of money going to support a
21:04
farming community directly to help sustain their certification
21:08
process so that they could focus on, you know, doing the work
21:12
that they're doing in the right way or what we've determined to
21:15
be the right way from the outside to some extent.
21:18
You know, that would be kind of a cool, cool option.
21:21
I don't know if that's even something that is available.
21:24
Yeah, definitely. And we RA is a global
21:26
organization. So I have colleagues and, you
21:28
know, various offices all around the world working precisely on
21:31
these topics. I mean, you know, as a, as a
21:33
charitable organization, I mean as an NGO and we're constantly
21:38
soliciting opportunities from partners in, in the market
21:41
companies who are, you know, in, in the, in the trade, so to
21:45
speak, are, are working under the banner certification to
21:48
advance sustainable agriculture in these, in these forest
21:51
communities. And so we, we see direct
21:54
investment with, with companies. That's, that's one way in which
21:57
in which your listeners, if they're, you know, if they're
21:59
representing these companies, that's, you know, that's one way
22:01
in which we're able to channel, to channel support to, to
22:06
farmers and coffee supply chains globally.
22:08
Certification plays a role in that.
22:10
But we also have companies that are working on really ambitious
22:12
projects all over the world to support maybe really acute
22:17
sustainability issues. Maybe it might be related to
22:19
livelihoods or human rights. Deforestation is really topical
22:23
right now because a variety of reasons.
22:28
Beyond this, we also, we also receive support from some
22:31
individuals. We do have means via our website
22:34
and through our, our, some of my colleagues in some of these
22:36
offices who are working on individual philanthropy to help
22:40
this support. But that is all to say, in my
22:43
view, the best way to support RA and some of these this, this
22:47
mission is, you know, to look out for that frog.
22:50
And basically, if you see the frog seal on on a bag of coffee
22:54
at the at the supermarket and want to give it a swing, you'll,
22:57
you'll be able to walk away with the knowledge that that purchase
23:01
is helping to support a global mission and one that's linked
23:04
intimately to the sustainability of, of coffee.
23:08
I mean, that leads me to my question as somebody who's
23:10
sitting here in Southern California, why should why
23:14
should I care about what the rainforest does?
23:16
I don't live in the rainforest, you know, like I, you know, my
23:19
audience probably doesn't live in the rainforest, although cool
23:22
if they did. Why is this important?
23:25
We're talking about it as if it is, but why is it?
23:28
You know, I, I think about this a lot too, Ryan.
23:31
I live in Colorado's Front Range and you know, from, from my
23:35
desk, I can look out the window and see at least in the
23:37
distance. So I can't see individual trees
23:40
and I'm not that close, but I can see that there's some stuff
23:43
going on out there. And when the summer comes around
23:46
and the, the air turns sour and, and smoky because we have fires
23:52
ongoing and other things. I mean, we saw tragically this
23:55
this past winter, the impact of, of forest fires in Southern
23:59
California, meaning in Los Angeles County.
24:02
And for me, those are inflection points where I do think that
24:07
our, our communities are, are more closely linked with, with
24:11
rainforest communities than than we might know, You know, because
24:15
humanity's future depends on, on these, these forests.
24:19
It's more relevant than ever as we see the accelerating effects
24:23
of climate change and the impact of, of forests in, in mitigating
24:28
some of the more acute impacts of climate change.
24:33
You know, these, these, these ecosystems are vital.
24:36
We see agriculture as a particularly acute threat to
24:41
forest degradation in a lot of, in, in a lot of tropical forests
24:47
and, and rainforests. So that's, that's one, one acute
24:51
reason why I think we should be cognizant of that, even if maybe
24:55
we don't have the opportunity to, to go and visit them very
24:58
frequently. That's one urgent reason in my
25:02
view, to, to pay attention to what's happening here.
25:05
We also see challenges in the coffee sector that are related
25:09
to climate change that are making more unique than in other
25:12
sectors that RA works in, particularly because our friend
25:16
the Arabica coffee plant is particularly, it's particularly
25:20
needy. It's a, it's a sensitive plant
25:22
and it likes to grow in very particular conditions and with a
25:28
diurnal cycle that's quite exaggerated.
25:31
And one in which, you know, if you, if you're looking at a
25:35
mountainside and you're growing coffee currently at 1200 meters
25:40
above sea level and you're noticing that it's becoming more
25:44
difficult every single year to achieve the same yields that you
25:48
had two 345 years ago or cup quality or any other, you know,
25:54
consideration. And you, you look up the slope,
25:57
you see that there's also, you know, a couple 100 meters of
26:01
room up the mountainside, but it's all heavily forested.
26:04
And you know, like you, you can't really, if you're, if
26:08
you're a farmer, there's not really a whole lot of options
26:10
left. And so we try and look at this
26:12
picture with a holistic view, one that considers the pragmatic
26:16
needs to operate a farm in a way that it is, you know,
26:21
financially sustainable for the for the farmer themselves, but I
26:25
think also one in which allows them to mitigate some of the
26:28
more acute impacts of climate change.
26:30
So for this reason, we're looking at things like
26:31
regenerative agriculture or regenerative approaches to
26:34
coffee production that can help to reduce the use of things like
26:39
like inputs, you know, chemical herbicide applications.
26:43
Also things like cover cropping and agroforestry, which can also
26:47
help to, if, if you're not reversing some of the more
26:53
harmful effects of climate change, it might actually just
26:55
at least create a an ability to mitigate some of the more nasty
26:59
bits. So it's a holistic answer.
27:03
It's a complicated question, but I think it's also one that
27:05
humanity's future depends upon. Certainly if we want to continue
27:09
drinking coffee in the future, we might have coffee.
27:13
I don't mean to be like super overdramatic, but it might just
27:16
not be your, you know, your 90 point geisha, you know, banger.
27:20
It's like singing, floral singing, high citrus acidity,
27:25
like all of these amazing things that we love about specialty
27:27
coffee and that I personally fell in love with when I first
27:30
kind of got into coffee. And in a serious way, you know,
27:34
my hope is that we can continue to have those experiences and
27:37
those coffee as well into the future.
27:40
That brings me to this idea ways that we have an impact on our
27:46
life and, and the reason we want to have an impact is because
27:49
there's AI think an innate desire and people to leave
27:53
things better than they found them, or at least as good, you
27:56
know. Do you have any, do you have a
27:59
piece of advice, maybe something you've learned in this process
28:01
of, of, of transitioning from specialty to the rainforest or
28:07
anything you'd like to share with us?
28:10
In particular? I think I'm asking about how you
28:12
maintain a level of optimism and, and hope.
28:16
You just mentioned you don't want to be dramatic, but I
28:19
worked at an environmental nonprofit and one of the, the
28:22
things I wasn't prepared for was the emotional impact of it.
28:26
And so how do, like those of us out here in the world who maybe
28:30
don't have as much information, how do we maintain that
28:33
optimism? How do you do that?
28:34
You know, I think it's a great question and it's, it's, it's,
28:38
it's not always easy. I mean, you look at the news and
28:41
you see, like I alluded to recent news in California, for
28:45
example. And, you know, trying to reflect
28:48
on what's coming through, you know, my, my iPhone screen and
28:53
my own work can sometimes be difficult.
28:56
And I think that this is maybe I'd be naive to think that all,
28:59
all is well and good and that we'll have a very prosperous
29:02
future in coffee, you know, because there's, there's really
29:05
acute challenges, like I mentioned right now, this
29:07
volatility that could put immense strain on, on the coffee
29:11
sector. I mean, the, there's a lot of
29:14
things that I reflect on now since I've had this experience
29:18
at the Rainforest Alliance also working more in the commercial
29:21
coffee, not necessarily as much specialty that makes me nervous.
29:25
And, and I, and I try and compartmentalize.
29:28
I try and I try and do what I can to to kind of get through my
29:31
days. You know, I reflect also my past
29:34
experiences and some of the the leaders that I've had the
29:38
benefit of working with in the past and some of the seizurely
29:42
advice that they've given me about where things have been and
29:45
and how far we've come. Both in just facilitating more
29:49
forums for pre competitive discussion Co investment, more
29:55
and more consumers being increasingly savvy about where
29:59
their coffee comes from, the kind of coffee that they like.
30:02
I think being willing and able to to justify paying more to
30:06
understand and to to really command that the the coffee that
30:11
they're drinking is, is, is is fundamentally, if if not, if not
30:17
good for the planet, is at least not doing more harm than it
30:20
otherwise could have been. You know, like I reflect on, you
30:23
know, some of the first times I had opportunities to visit
30:26
coffee farms when I was with intelligency.
30:28
And then I'd be walking around and I'd see this Rainforest
30:31
Alliance frog on these farms in Brazil and I'd be looking and
30:34
they'd be like, wait, so this farm is certified?
30:37
I'm not talking about this. Like, I didn't think we even
30:40
knew that these farms were certified.
30:43
You know, we were buying these specialty grade coffees and, you
30:48
know, talking about direct trade, the farms that we were
30:50
working with and telly had been buying coffee from for over a
30:53
decade, long term relationships, you know, growing together hand
30:57
in hand for most of that time, right?
31:00
And you know, it really caused me to consider to more.
31:04
And I think fundamentally, the one thing that has gotten me
31:07
through hurdles in the road is I don't think it's anything like
31:11
necessarily resembling like an unyielding optimism, but it's
31:14
more or less just a curiosity, you know, like I've had.
31:20
I'll see things like that and I'll think to myself, what's
31:23
going on here? Is there another piece to the
31:25
story that I'm missing that I haven't really grasped yet?
31:30
And that has led me to expand my network to, to try and seek out
31:34
allies in the sector who are doing cool work, interesting
31:38
work, and ambitious work to ensure that we all have a
31:41
prosperous future in coffee. And, and that's kind of what's,
31:46
what's prodded me along, to be honest with you, Like a week or
31:50
so ago, I had the opportunity to, to travel to Houston for the
31:53
National Coffee Association event, which was, it was
31:56
revelatory for me. I mean, this is I, I've alluded
31:59
to this a few times in our conversation, but this
32:01
volatility that we're experiencing in coffee is, is
32:05
historic without question. You're seeing high coffee prices
32:09
in the sea market. You know, fundamentally, I think
32:13
high coffee prices are a good thing.
32:15
It's my personal view because this means that cost of
32:19
production and the incentives associated with high coffee
32:22
prices are less of an acute problem.
32:25
Like if we had this conversation a few years ago, we may have
32:27
been talking about cost of production, you know, difficulty
32:31
finding labor to to help to support the coffee, the coffee
32:34
production and coffee picking in a lot of, you know, coffee
32:38
producing countries. And now we're on the other side
32:41
of that conversation. You know, the things that I'm
32:43
seeing now and that I'm understanding now, I don't think
32:45
I would have been able to perceive a few years ago when I
32:47
was working in specialty, to be frank, because I'm seeing the
32:51
the other potential ramifications of not necessarily
32:54
high prices, but volatility. You know, I mentioned when we
32:57
see really hyperbolic swings like one day to the next, 20-30
33:02
cents one or the other, it creates an operating environment
33:05
for people who are actually like physically trading coffee.
33:09
I'm not talking about the futures or any speculation in
33:12
the coffee market might be coming from Wall Street or other
33:15
other places, basically people who have no real intention of
33:19
physically buying or roasting coffee.
33:21
But it makes the environment really difficult.
33:25
And, you know, when I was in Houston, there's a lot of
33:28
conversation about this and how we would weather the storm
33:30
collectively and I think ultimately preserve the
33:34
investments that have already been made in sustainability and
33:38
in our sector. So that's, that's my view.
33:42
You know, it's, it's not always easy with, with what's, what's
33:45
in the news and, and everything else that's really outside of my
33:49
control. I can really only focus on
33:51
touching the, you know, the couple of people who who crossed
33:54
my path every day or so in the sector, but that's all we can
33:58
do, right? Is there a mandate when you join
34:01
the Rainforest Alliance that you get the frog tattooed on you
34:04
somewhere? I just want to make.
34:05
Sure. You know, yeah, I think it's a
34:07
good question. I've, I've thought about this
34:09
because we've been having conversations with colleagues
34:12
about SCA, which happens again in Houston in a couple weeks
34:15
time. And we're all excited to go and
34:17
to meet friends and taste some beautiful coffee.
34:19
And we're thinking, OK, maybe we should get some swag like, you
34:22
know, it's in Houston. And I was thinking, man, we
34:24
should do a frog belt buckle. I thought that that would be a
34:27
sweet, a sweet idea and but no one else has bitten.
34:31
I don't know why. Maybe my ideas?
34:33
Aren't so good. I hope it's right.
34:34
There's right green rhinestones of some kind along, definitely.
34:38
Definitely. What did I, you know, miss or
34:41
what is there, is there anything about the Rainforest Alliance
34:43
that we, we need to make sure we cover, you know, in our time
34:47
here today or the best way for us to support the reinforced
34:51
lines you already mentioned, obviously looking for the the
34:53
logo, but beyond that. Yeah, certainly.
34:56
You know, I think this is this is the where, where it really
34:59
starts and stops for me. I mean most of the financial
35:02
support that RA receives is directly derived from from the
35:06
certification program and from consumption of RA certified
35:09
coffee. So that would be my call to arms
35:12
for, for the audience is, is to, to seek out the frog, you know,
35:18
try the coffees, you know, if you're in touch with your local
35:21
roasters, maybe they're curious about certification or entering
35:25
a space. I mean, that's, that's that's
35:28
where where my recommendation would lie.
35:31
Is there a? Is there a database of coffees
35:35
or companies or people that are achieving the certification?
35:39
Or how do we know that? Is it on the the the roaster or
35:44
the exporter to display that? I mean, how do people find out
35:47
what it is besides just physically seeing it on the
35:49
shelf? So we maintain like a list on
35:52
our website of of the certificate holders, basically
35:55
both the farms I should say and the roasters.
35:58
And so you can filter by, by region, you can look and try and
36:02
find roasters near you who are buying Rainforest Alliance
36:05
certified coffee. Many of them very proud to talk
36:09
about it and, and, and perceive the value of very positively of
36:14
the investment that they're making in sustainability via
36:17
their coffee purchasing. So that's one way we also try
36:21
and we're trying more to, to, to talk about this and to make sure
36:26
we're providing visibility on, on these companies because in
36:30
our view, you know, these, these guys are at the, you know, the
36:35
cutting edge of, of, of sustainability in coffee.
36:39
My hope is that we can also in time see, see this work gets way
36:43
more into specialty coffee. You know, one of the, one of the
36:46
things that I've reflected on in the past in, in coffee is, is
36:50
that, like I said, you know, I visit these farms and I was, we,
36:55
maybe you're buying certified coffees, but you don't
36:56
necessarily know it. You don't maintain custody of
37:00
that certification and continue to discuss it also in turn with
37:03
your clients, which for me is just in hindsight, it's like a
37:05
missed opportunity. Yeah, I was talking to big
37:07
buyers of Intelli coffees in in the States.
37:09
And in many circumstances that would have been a great feather
37:13
I think in, in our cap to be able to to discuss.
37:15
But maybe we just didn't know about it.
37:17
And so that, that the onus there is on, is on me now and then our
37:20
team to make sure that coffee buyers and, and companies are
37:24
aware of, of, of the, the value of their coffee and their
37:27
contribution to the supply chains is effectively making.
37:30
Because, you know, these days like it's, it's more important
37:35
than ever. You know, we had, you know, as a
37:38
global NGO, for example, I don't, you know, I don't need to
37:41
wait too much into politics. But for example, with the, the
37:45
shuttering of USAID and associated development funding,
37:49
International Development funding, you know, we, we saw
37:51
immediate ramifications in our own little organization.
37:54
And so that is also true, many partners in coffee globally who
38:00
are working really hard to, to push for a sustainable future
38:04
for coffee. So I think now more than ever
38:07
this, this sort of intentionality on the consumer
38:09
side is super important, you know, because sometimes we can't
38:13
rely on the state or, or or others to, to continue to
38:17
advance that the mission. I think living as an intentional
38:21
human is a daily challenge, but one that comes with a lot of its
38:25
own rewards. You mentioned that you are in
38:27
Colorado at some point. I assume you're crossing that
38:31
distance between where you sit and those trees.
38:34
I know I certainly would. Assuming you come across a good
38:37
coffee shop along the way, what are you going to order?
38:41
Well, I am not that interesting, you know, when it comes to
38:44
coffee. I usually just, you know, try
38:47
and be unobtrusive and, and ask for whatever, whatever drip
38:51
coffee is made. But I do have preferences.
38:53
You know, I'm not such a big advocate for naturally processed
38:57
coffees. I know this can be a kind of a
38:59
hot button topic, but it's it's not that I haven't had fantastic
39:03
ones. They're beautiful, beautiful
39:05
naturals and and everything. But usually in my preference is
39:08
just for, you know, if there's a nice washed coffee, if it
39:11
happens to be from East Africa, awesome.
39:15
If not, also awesome. And I'll, I'll usually go for
39:19
that. But you know, we, I'm, I'm a
39:20
little spoiled here in Colorado. We have a bunch of really
39:23
terrific roasters who are doing great work.
39:25
Many of them are, are pretty close to home as well.
39:28
So if I'm on my way up to the mountains, I can squeeze in,
39:31
grab a quick drip and and roll in the past, you know, I love to
39:35
drink and and to fiddle and to to to mess around with brew
39:39
methods and stuff. But I think as I've gotten older
39:42
and maybe as, as my palate has just become more and more junk,
39:46
I just, I, I just have my, my, my preferred method and stick to
39:51
it. Kevin, I, I really appreciate
39:53
that you took took the time this morning.
39:56
Obviously, this is a crazy time in the world of coffee and also
39:59
as you mentioned, in the world of nonprofits, funding is just,
40:04
isn't it really interesting intricate part of our economy.
40:08
So if you're out there listening, you know, in this
40:10
sounds of something of value, please take a look at those
40:12
links. They're going to be in our show
40:13
notes. They'll be in our newsletter
40:15
when that comes out. I certainly appreciate you all
40:18
all being here. And again, that's Rainforest
40:20
Dash alliance.org. You can find
40:23
ournewsletter@roastwestcoast.com. And thank you for listening,
40:27
Kevin. Thank you for being.
40:29
Thanks. Very appreciate it.
40:34
Hey everyone, thank you for coming back for another episode
40:37
of our Coffee People podcast. That's our show for today.
40:40
Thanks to our guests for sharing their time, their story, and
40:44
dropping a little bit of knowledge on all of us.
40:46
I always appreciate the advice. You can find a recap of this
40:49
episode in our newsletter at roastwestcoast.com.
40:53
That and all the links we chatted about today are in this
40:56
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Thank you too. I hope we get to have a cup of
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but to everyone listening and watching this podcast, asking us
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42:03
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42:22
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42:31
Cheers everyone.