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SMNTY Classics: The Women of Wildland Firefighting · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny Ann Smitha. I'm welcome to stuff.
0:02
Speaker 1: I never told you a picture of Iheartradia, and today
0:14
Speaker 1: we are bringing back a classic on women and wildland
0:19
Speaker 1: firefighting because here in Georgia we've actually had some wildfires
0:28
Speaker 1: and a friend of mine was impacted by it, not
0:35
Speaker 1: directly but indirectly, and you know, there was all the
0:38
Speaker 1: warnings of don't don't start any fires outside, or just
0:43
Speaker 1: be really careful, the conditions are really bad. And so
0:47
Speaker 1: I just got me thinking about this episode that we
0:49
Speaker 1: did and how we missed out on the opportunity Eves
0:52
Speaker 1: offered to connect us with a woman who had worked
0:57
Speaker 1: in this field. We should follow up.
1:00
Speaker 2: I think we need to follow up.
1:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, but in the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode.
1:11
Speaker 1: Hey this and Samantha rocome stuff. I never told your
1:13
Speaker 1: prediction of I Heart Radio.
1:24
Speaker 2: And we're talking about something that kind of had already
1:28
Speaker 2: been hitd on. So past hosts Kristen and Caroline did
1:31
Speaker 2: a great episode in two thousand and nine on women
1:34
Speaker 2: in firefighting, but we thought we would take some time
1:37
Speaker 2: to talk about the women within the wildland firefighting community,
1:41
Speaker 2: a very specific group of people. It is a specific
1:44
Speaker 2: field that has become a huge need unfortunately, especially as
1:48
Speaker 2: of late. Content warning straight up, obviously we're going to
1:51
Speaker 2: talk about fires, land damage, all of that. There's mention
1:54
Speaker 2: of suicide, of mental health issues as well as sexual harassment.
1:59
Speaker 2: So go ahead, We're not getting too much into it.
2:01
Speaker 2: We're just getting into some statistics as.
2:04
Speaker 1: We always do.
2:05
Speaker 2: So there's a lot happening around the world, and unfortunately,
2:09
Speaker 2: some of these things are disasters that are destroying lands,
2:11
Speaker 2: property and the environment overall. So, like I said, Chigoandi
2:16
Speaker 2: about all these incidents, but we also mentioned fire and arson,
2:19
Speaker 2: death and natural disasters. So with that, the wildland fire
2:24
Speaker 2: fighting field has been around for quite some time now,
2:27
Speaker 2: like most of history around the world. Even with its existence,
2:32
Speaker 2: it took way way longer for women to be even
2:35
Speaker 2: a part of this field at all. But before we
2:39
Speaker 2: get into all of that, we're going to look at
2:42
Speaker 2: statistics and facts around wildland fires in general. Again, it's a.
2:47
Speaker 1: Lot, yeah, So let's start with the definition from our
2:51
Speaker 1: world and data dot org quote. A wildfire is an
2:54
Speaker 1: uncontrolled burn of vegetation, which includes the burning of forest,
2:57
Speaker 1: shrublands and grasslands, savannahs, and crop plans. Wildfires can be
3:01
Speaker 1: caused by human activity such as arson, unattended fires, or
3:05
Speaker 1: the loss of control of planned burns, and natural causes
3:09
Speaker 1: such as lightning. The amount of wildfires in recent years
3:12
Speaker 1: have substantially increased. According to the twenty twenty three World
3:16
Speaker 1: Resources Institute quote, the latest data on forest fires confirms
3:20
Speaker 1: what we've long feared. Forest fires are becoming more widespread,
3:24
Speaker 1: burning nearly twice as much tree copper today as they
3:26
Speaker 1: did twenty years ago. Using data from a recent study
3:29
Speaker 1: by researchers at the University of Maryland, we calculated that
3:33
Speaker 1: forest fires now result in three million more hectors of
3:37
Speaker 1: tree cover loss per year compared to two thousand and one,
3:40
Speaker 1: an area roughly the size of Belgium, and accounted for
3:43
Speaker 1: more than one quarter of all tree cover loss over
3:46
Speaker 1: the past twenty years.
3:48
Speaker 2: Right and article continues. Twenty twenty one was one of
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Speaker 2: the worst years for forest fires since the turn of
3:53
Speaker 2: the century, causing an alarming nine point three million hectares
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Speaker 2: of tree cover loss globally, over one third of all
4:00
Speaker 2: tree cover loss that occurred that year, though down from
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Speaker 2: the previous year. Over six point six million hectares of
4:06
Speaker 2: tree cover was lost to force fires in twenty twenty two,
4:09
Speaker 2: similar to other years over the past decades, and in
4:11
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the world has already seen heightened fire activity,
4:15
Speaker 2: including record breaking burns across Canada and catastrophic fires in Hawaii,
4:20
Speaker 2: which we all remember so. In fact, in a recent
4:23
Speaker 2: article written by reporter Claire Moses for The New York Times,
4:27
Speaker 2: at least four point five million acres have been burned
4:30
Speaker 2: in North America this year already. Here's a quote from
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Speaker 2: her article. So far this year, over twenty eight thousand
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Speaker 2: wildfires have burned more than four point five million acres
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Speaker 2: in the United States, according to the National Interagency Fire Center,
4:44
Speaker 2: US fire activity for twenty twenty four is above the
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Speaker 2: average for the last decade, agency data shows, and the
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Speaker 2: resulting destruction has already mounted to more than that burned
4:53
Speaker 2: in all of twenty three three, and with the expected
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Speaker 2: peak of this year's fire season still at least a
4:58
Speaker 2: month or more away. X say that fires are burning
5:01
Speaker 2: with a level of intensity rarely seen at this point
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Speaker 2: in the summer, and yet this article was written in August.
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Speaker 1: Y'all, Typically, wildfire season begins in June or July and
5:11
Speaker 1: continues on into mid fall, but some are saying that
5:14
Speaker 1: timeline will extend in part due to climate change. The
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Speaker 1: article continues saying, quote experts have grown concerned about the
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Speaker 1: sheer number of fires burning in Western States this early
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Speaker 1: in the season. As of Saturday, there were eighty nine
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Speaker 1: large active fires according to the NIFC, most of them
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Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest in California.
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Speaker 2: The calls of wildfires vary greatly, but some of the
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Speaker 2: causes are as follows according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs,
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Speaker 2: including lightning, burning off and outcrop or underground coal seam,
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Speaker 2: campfire or bonfire, smoking like cigarettes and matches, fire use
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Speaker 2: such as debris burning or burning of ditches and fields,
5:53
Speaker 2: arson or illegal burning equipment such as vehicles and aircrafts,
5:58
Speaker 2: railroads apparently part of that as well, kids or miners
6:01
Speaker 2: playing with fire or fireworks, and others and others are
6:04
Speaker 2: like It can uncover so many, including birth announcements, our
6:10
Speaker 2: gender reveals as we remember.
6:14
Speaker 1: Of course, as we said earlier, the current state of
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Speaker 1: climate change has made the wildfire situation much more severe
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Speaker 1: and concerning. Here's some information from the Environmental Defense Fund. Quote.
6:24
Speaker 1: Climate change can make environments more susceptible to burning, increasing
6:28
Speaker 1: severe heat and drought due to climate change can fuel wildfires.
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Speaker 1: Hotter temperatures evaporate more moisture from soil and vegetation, drying
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Speaker 1: out trees, shrubs, and grasses, and turning leaf litter and
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Speaker 1: fallen branches into kindling. In times of drought, trees that
6:42
Speaker 1: are stressed by a lack of water may also become
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Speaker 1: more vulnerable to insects and diseases that can weaken or
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Speaker 1: kill them, creating more fuel for fires. And in the
6:52
Speaker 1: western US, snowpacks are shrinking and melting earlier in the year,
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Speaker 1: which makes forest more flammable by reducing the water available
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Speaker 1: for vegetation. Fire is a natural phenomenon that serves important
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Speaker 1: ecological purposes, clearing dead and disease plants from some forest,
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Speaker 1: for example, and even helping some plants reproduce. But a
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Speaker 1: rapidly warming planet, along with the history of short sighted
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Speaker 1: forest management practices and land use decisions that push development
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Speaker 1: into the wilderness, is contributing to more destructive wildfires.
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Speaker 2: Right and some more information from the World Resource Institute
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Speaker 2: quote climate change is one of the major drivers of
7:29
Speaker 2: increasing fire activities. Extreme heat waves are already five times
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Speaker 2: more likely today than they wore one hundred and fifty
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Speaker 2: years ago and are expected to become even more frequent
7:37
Speaker 2: as a planet continues to warm. Hotter temperatures dry out
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Speaker 2: the landscape and help create the perfect environment for large,
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Speaker 2: more frequent forest fires. This in turn leads to higher
7:47
Speaker 2: emissions from forest fires, further exacerbating climate change and contributing
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Speaker 2: to more fires as part of a fire climate feedback loop. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: so in this we were having this hile conversation about
8:00
Speaker 2: the fact that this is a whole cycle that's causing
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Speaker 2: more and more chaos. We've talked about this before about
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Speaker 2: the cause and effects of some things, and force fires
8:10
Speaker 2: is right in the middle of that. So there's different
8:13
Speaker 2: research of methods for trying to bring a solution to
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Speaker 2: the problem of the increased wildfires, and much of that
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Speaker 2: is being done through actual wildland firefighters.
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Speaker 1: Yes, for some context. Here are some of the differences
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Speaker 1: between wildland firefighters versus structural firefighters from palatianews dot com.
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Speaker 1: The training and education of each are different. Quote. The
8:34
Speaker 1: first notable difference between structure and wildland firefighting is their
8:38
Speaker 1: disparate training and education methods. While both groups must receive
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Speaker 1: extensive training, the biggest difference is in the techniques required
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Speaker 1: to deal with hazardous fires, and their requirements are worlds apart.
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Speaker 1: For example, a wildland firefighter must have a post secondary education,
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Speaker 1: past various written and physical tests, have a red card
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Speaker 1: certification that will allows them to perform duties as a
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Speaker 1: wildline firefighter, and have experience working in rough terrain. On
9:06
Speaker 1: the other hand, structural firefighters must go through various written
9:10
Speaker 1: and physical tests, pass several interviews, and have Emergency Medical
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Speaker 1: Technician AMT certification.
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Speaker 2: Right, So, equipment and a PPE are also different. For
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Speaker 2: wildlind firefighters, items like line gear, chainsaws, campus and GPS
9:27
Speaker 2: are a must, while items like self containing breeding apparatus,
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Speaker 2: scuba and access are used for structural firefighters. So when
9:34
Speaker 2: we talk about structural firefighters, we're talking about, you know, firefighters.
9:37
Speaker 2: That's what we regularly think the ones on the calendar.
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Speaker 2: Just kidding. It's also noted that being on duty for
9:44
Speaker 2: structural firefighters is all year long, while for most wildlin
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Speaker 2: firefighters it is seasonal, as well as the fact that
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Speaker 2: containing a wildfire versus a structural fire uses very different methods,
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Speaker 2: such as wildlind fire fighters having to create quote fire
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Speaker 2: lines by cutting down trees and digging up grass in
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Speaker 2: the path of the fire to stop it from spreading.
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Speaker 1: Stuff like that.
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Speaker 2: And also we're going to talk about some of the
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Speaker 2: specialized units within wildland firefighters which make them different as well. Okay,
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Speaker 2: now we got that down. Let's talk about the history
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Speaker 2: of wildland firefighters for just a minute. Bear with us.
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Speaker 2: It was an eighteen eighty five that the wildland fire
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Speaker 2: control program was initiated, and throughout history there had been
10:24
Speaker 2: a long conversation of fire suppression versus fire control. When
10:28
Speaker 2: we mentioned earlier, how that debate really may have cost
10:32
Speaker 2: how we handled and how the environment had made more
10:36
Speaker 2: problems because we didn't handle it so well. This is
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Speaker 2: part of this conversation though, suppression versus control. So initially
10:43
Speaker 2: it was thought that complete fire suppression was the answer.
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Speaker 2: In fact, there was a debate again within the community
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Speaker 2: about whether or not complete suppression was the only answer
10:51
Speaker 2: and that control fire could be of benefit. But after
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Speaker 2: the nineteen ten fire, which burned millions of acres and
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Speaker 2: killed at least ninety people, with majority of them being firefighters,
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Speaker 2: many of them moved to complete suppression. It was in
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Speaker 2: nineteen ten that they passed the largest budget to quote
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Speaker 2: institutionalize and professionalized fire suppression. And this is according to
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Speaker 2: the National Interagency Fire Center or the NFC, and it
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Speaker 2: wouldn't be until the seventies they would change it from
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Speaker 2: fire control suppression to fire management due to allowing for
11:24
Speaker 2: more flexible process of quote appropriate suppression actions, which could
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Speaker 2: quote range from fully suppressing a fire to confining a
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Speaker 2: fire within a certain area under predetermined conditions. As they
11:37
Speaker 2: figured out, the complete exclusion could be hindering the ecosystem's
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Speaker 2: natural process of regeneration. So it's kind of the debate
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Speaker 2: of like, it's not all bad even though it seems
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Speaker 2: very scary. Okay, yes we did. Now with all of that,
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Speaker 2: let's talk about the women. When did the women start
11:55
Speaker 2: being a part of this conversation. Well, the first ever
11:58
Speaker 2: noted women to be part of the wild and fire
12:00
Speaker 2: crew were actually just known as Missus Durham and her friend,
12:04
Speaker 2: Missus Kloppenberg. Right, So, Missus Durham was the wife of
12:08
Speaker 2: one of the rangers of the California National Forest and
12:12
Speaker 2: because of the war during that time, since there were
12:15
Speaker 2: not enough men in the fire crews and they had
12:17
Speaker 2: so many wildfires at the time, many of the crews
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Speaker 2: enlisted and trained wives of for service rangers to help,
12:25
Speaker 2: and yeah, we researched a bit more. I tried to
12:27
Speaker 2: get more information. I was like, Oh, who is this person,
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Speaker 2: what she's about? What was her first name? Couldn't find
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Speaker 2: a damn thing, Like, there was nothing other than their
12:35
Speaker 2: married names in a pretty much a salute thank you
12:38
Speaker 2: for helping out. I think that was pretty much like
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Speaker 2: the nineteen tens, like in war efforts, when women were like,
12:44
Speaker 2: thanks for your help, go back home, right essentially, But
12:49
Speaker 2: I also want to note because it was really interesting
12:51
Speaker 2: trying to get all this information about historical first. We've
12:54
Speaker 2: talked about this with Eaves and so many other episodes.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't all aligning, and some of the first were
13:01
Speaker 2: much later, and there probably were other women that we
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Speaker 2: just don't know about or haven't been credited. I don't know,
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Speaker 2: because there was a first all women crew that was
13:10
Speaker 2: noted to have started in the early nineteen forties. But
13:13
Speaker 2: that's it. Like I couldn't find who they were, where
13:15
Speaker 2: they were from, who they were with. Maybe I looked
13:18
Speaker 2: at the wrong place. Maybe my search engine is really
13:21
Speaker 2: tired of me, and like I can't answer this question
13:23
Speaker 2: for you leave me alone, because I got some like
13:25
Speaker 2: real like heavy blocks in trying to find some of
13:28
Speaker 2: those answers. But there was a mention of a crew
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Speaker 2: of an all women's crew in the nineteen forties, but
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Speaker 2: I don't think they were actually paid well.
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Speaker 1: As we continue to do more research, it was much
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Speaker 1: later that any other women would be recognized as being
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Speaker 1: part of the wildland firefighters and be integrated as paid staff.
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Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, we see one of the first
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Speaker 1: women to be hired, Caroline Kara Peters, but she was
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Speaker 1: quickly fired after that. That didn't stop her though. Here's
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Speaker 1: a quote about her history from BLM dot gov or
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Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management dot gov. Quote. Car first went
14:19
Speaker 1: to the press to make her case known to the public,
14:22
Speaker 1: then contacted a lawyer, and finally made a direct appeal
14:25
Speaker 1: to the BLM. Because of growing fire pressures at the time,
14:29
Speaker 1: women had been filling positions such as working in dispatch
14:32
Speaker 1: and packing parachutes. However, Kara was told that she couldn't
14:37
Speaker 1: be a forest firefighter because it was not reasonable to
14:39
Speaker 1: expect the Bureau to provide separate sleeping accommodations and bathroom
14:43
Speaker 1: facilities for men and women on the fire lines. Eventually, however,
14:47
Speaker 1: Cara was told that if she could assemble twelve suitable candidates,
14:51
Speaker 1: half of a normal crew, they would begin a pilot
14:55
Speaker 1: program to test whether women had the necessary strength and endurance.
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Speaker 1: She returned with twenty three women.
15:01
Speaker 2: Right, so when we say she was fired quickly, we've
15:04
Speaker 2: been four hours after she was hired. She was fired
15:07
Speaker 2: like it was so quick, Like they were like, oh,
15:10
Speaker 2: we made a mistake, You're gone. So she and the
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Speaker 2: other ladies were not only able to train and pass
15:16
Speaker 2: without any trouble, but soon she and her team would
15:19
Speaker 2: go on to work alongside with other firefighters at the
15:22
Speaker 2: Wickersham Dome fire around Fairbanks, becoming one of the first
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Speaker 2: to do so in BLM history. Again, I want to
15:28
Speaker 2: put this asterisk here. We're saying first very loosely, because
15:32
Speaker 2: there could be others that we don't know about. Like
15:34
Speaker 2: I said, there's still a lot of information. I'm like,
15:35
Speaker 2: there's gotta be more that we just don't know, so
15:38
Speaker 2: who knows. We might find more information later in time.
15:41
Speaker 2: So some of this might sound like because we won't
15:43
Speaker 2: say the first, that's just the asterisks that we're always
15:46
Speaker 2: placing in because we know, history is ever growing and
15:49
Speaker 2: we're finding out new things, so, you know, just so
15:52
Speaker 2: we put that there and just because. Here's a quote
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Speaker 2: from a nineteen seventy one article from the crew chief
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Speaker 2: at the time. The women competed successfully with the men
16:02
Speaker 2: and in fact were superior in many respects as far
16:06
Speaker 2: as their physical capabilities. All were capable of handling the
16:09
Speaker 2: job and did like he was thoroughly impressed, even though
16:13
Speaker 2: varsity like na thinks.
16:16
Speaker 1: The ladies the ladiest. And soon after we had other
16:24
Speaker 1: ladies taking a step further into the field by becoming
16:27
Speaker 1: some of the first women to be on hot shot cruise.
16:30
Speaker 1: Hot Shot crews are interagency hot shot crews are highly
16:34
Speaker 1: trained wildland fire crews that are specialized workers trained to
16:38
Speaker 1: lead and be on hand for all phases of a fire.
16:42
Speaker 1: Here's a specific description from the Forest Services site. Interagency
16:47
Speaker 1: hot Shot Crews hiics, commonly called hot shots or hot
16:51
Speaker 1: shot crews, are highly trained, specialized wild and fire hand
16:55
Speaker 1: crews that performed some of the most demanding and hazardous
16:58
Speaker 1: tasks in wild and fire fighting. Their profession requires a
17:01
Speaker 1: high level of physical fitness and the ability to demonstrate
17:05
Speaker 1: a extensive knowledge of fire behavior with the ability to
17:08
Speaker 1: develop and implement strategy and tactics on the most complex
17:12
Speaker 1: incidents under extreme conditions, be a high aptitude for mitigating
17:17
Speaker 1: a risk using exemplary situational awareness and outstanding communication skills,
17:22
Speaker 1: and see excellent leadership characteristics at all levels. Their primary
17:27
Speaker 1: mission is to provide a safe, professional, mobile, and highly
17:30
Speaker 1: skilled type one hand crew status for all phases of
17:33
Speaker 1: fire management and incident operations.
17:36
Speaker 2: So who are some of the first ladies to be
17:39
Speaker 2: a part of this elite crew. Thanks to Amanda Monte
17:43
Speaker 2: I hope I had said your name right, a former
17:45
Speaker 2: fellow Hotshot crew member from Oregon, and her article for
17:49
Speaker 2: Outside online dot com, we're able to talk about some
17:52
Speaker 2: of these women and their works and how they are
17:54
Speaker 2: able to break barrier or so thank you. And I
17:57
Speaker 2: think she is actually actively on a podcast too, or
18:00
Speaker 2: produces the podcast for Women and wild and Firefighters. But
18:03
Speaker 2: she did this article in these interviews after she discovered photos,
18:07
Speaker 2: all these old photos of hot Shot members that were women.
18:10
Speaker 2: So she went on a search and found them and
18:12
Speaker 2: spoke to a few of them. So let's start with
18:16
Speaker 2: Dana Feldman. Feldman told Monthay that she didn't know what
18:19
Speaker 2: she was getting into originally. Here's a bit from her interview.
18:22
Speaker 2: To be honest, if someone told me what this whole
18:25
Speaker 2: fire thing would require, I would have said, oh, I
18:28
Speaker 2: can't do that, says Dana Feldman, who worked for Baker
18:31
Speaker 2: River Hotshots in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties.
18:34
Speaker 2: I had no idea what I was getting into, and
18:37
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have done it if I had. But what
18:39
Speaker 2: fire taught me over and over and over again was
18:42
Speaker 2: how to throw myself into things and just start flapping
18:44
Speaker 2: my wings somewhere along the line. And though she may
18:48
Speaker 2: have gone in without really understanding it, she definitely excelled,
18:51
Speaker 2: even earning a performance award in her first season, and
18:55
Speaker 2: her work was so impressive her leaders even told her
18:58
Speaker 2: he would never have a fire crew without a woman
19:00
Speaker 2: in it. She even became the first woman hot shot
19:03
Speaker 2: squad boss at Baker Rivers. She eventually left the field
19:07
Speaker 2: to go on to become a psychotherapist, but she does
19:09
Speaker 2: talk about her experience.
19:11
Speaker 1: Then we have Sue Husari, who worked with Lawson Hotshot Crew.
19:16
Speaker 1: She was the first woman for the crew and for
19:19
Speaker 1: the state. Hears a little bit from her interview quote
19:22
Speaker 1: Husori was hired to loss in a hot shot crew
19:25
Speaker 1: in northern California in nineteen seventy six. She was the
19:29
Speaker 1: first woman on the crew and one of the first
19:31
Speaker 1: women on a hot shot crew in the state. I
19:34
Speaker 1: still don't know why they decided to hire a woman.
19:37
Speaker 1: It was very unusual, she says. Still, her experience on
19:41
Speaker 1: Lawson was overwhelmingly positive. Husari says she wasn't treated differently
19:45
Speaker 1: than her male colleagues, except that her coworkers often looked
19:49
Speaker 1: out for her, particularly because she was just twenty one
19:52
Speaker 1: when she was hired. While she was new to the
19:55
Speaker 1: world of wildland fire, it didn't take long for Husari
19:57
Speaker 1: to realize that she was well suited for the rigors
20:00
Speaker 1: of hot shotting. My best attribute for firefighting was endurance,
20:05
Speaker 1: and I think that's common for most women who do this,
20:07
Speaker 1: she says, noting that she spent her youth in teenage
20:10
Speaker 1: years backpacking in the Sirira, Nevada with her dad. I
20:13
Speaker 1: wasn't a natural athlete, but I could hike, I could
20:16
Speaker 1: carry heavy stuff, and I was familiar with the outdoors,
20:19
Speaker 1: so I was good at it.
20:20
Speaker 2: And then we have a Kimberly Brandle, who was the
20:23
Speaker 2: first woman to be hired with the Zigzag Hotshot crew,
20:26
Speaker 2: and she was honest about some of the challenges she
20:29
Speaker 2: faced during her time on the crew. From her interview quote,
20:32
Speaker 2: Randal is refreshingly honest about her first year working as
20:35
Speaker 2: a hot shot in a world that was still a
20:36
Speaker 2: bit unsure about having women around. It was the attitude
20:39
Speaker 2: of a lot of men that I didn't belong there,
20:42
Speaker 2: and that I was never going to be a part
20:43
Speaker 2: of the group because they didn't think I belonged there,
20:45
Speaker 2: she said. A gradual cultural shift in the fourth Service
20:48
Speaker 2: soon contributed to more women being hired to the crew.
20:51
Speaker 2: Even still, it took years to change the perception that
20:54
Speaker 2: women on hotshot crews were tokens or only there to
20:57
Speaker 2: fill a quota. When I started in fire, fire crew
21:00
Speaker 2: were like a pie cut into twenty pieces, and only
21:03
Speaker 2: one piece of that pie was allocated for women. The
21:05
Speaker 2: rest were allocated for men, Brittle says, but with her
21:09
Speaker 2: own hard work and abilities, she was able to become
21:11
Speaker 2: a part of the leadership and was able to help
21:13
Speaker 2: and bring in more women, providing more equal space in
21:17
Speaker 2: the field.
21:19
Speaker 1: And we have Gina Popka, who became a hot shot
21:22
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, but would make history by becoming
21:25
Speaker 1: the first woman superintendent of a hot shot crew in
21:28
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one from Monte Quote. After beginning her career
21:32
Speaker 1: with the mount Hood National Forest based Zigzag hot Shots
21:35
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, Papka went on to become the
21:38
Speaker 1: country's first permanent female hot shot superintendent, the highest position
21:42
Speaker 1: on a hot shot crew, in nineteen ninety one. Only
21:45
Speaker 1: eleven women have since held that position, compared to more
21:49
Speaker 1: than seven hundred men since hot shot crews were first
21:52
Speaker 1: established in the nineteen forties, meaning just over one percent
21:55
Speaker 1: of superintendent positions on the country's one hundred and ten
21:58
Speaker 1: hot shot crews up and filled by a woman. And
22:02
Speaker 1: the article continues. Popka was known for being radically inclusive
22:06
Speaker 1: in or hiring. She made a concerted effort to continue
22:09
Speaker 1: Zigzag's long history of seeing the value and including women
22:12
Speaker 1: and other marginalized people on the crew, long before such
22:16
Speaker 1: practices were being utilized on other crews around the country.
22:19
Speaker 1: Popka was regularly hiring four to six women to round
22:22
Speaker 1: out her twenty person crew, and up to eight women
22:25
Speaker 1: when there was an influx of good applicants. Even today,
22:29
Speaker 1: it's rare to find hot shot crews with more than
22:31
Speaker 1: two or three women. Women sought me because I was
22:35
Speaker 1: the only female hot shot superintendent and we were known
22:38
Speaker 1: to be a good crew, she says, for me, it
22:41
Speaker 1: was just giving them an opportunity to see what they
22:43
Speaker 1: could do with themselves. Women underestimate themselves, but I knew
22:48
Speaker 1: they'd do well.
22:49
Speaker 2: I feel like it ties in with a feld. Then
22:51
Speaker 2: when she was like, if I know and I wouldn't
22:52
Speaker 2: have done it.
22:53
Speaker 1: Right, I would have thought I could exactly.
22:57
Speaker 2: So with those first, I wanted to add one more.
23:00
Speaker 2: And that's the first woman to become a smoke jumper.
23:03
Speaker 2: And here's an explanation of smoke jumpers from the NIFC.
23:06
Speaker 2: Smoke Jumpers are unique because of the way they reach
23:09
Speaker 2: the fire line. They parachute from an airplane three thousand
23:12
Speaker 2: feet above the ground. When wildfires a night in remote
23:15
Speaker 2: and isolated locations, smoke jumpers are able to reach them
23:18
Speaker 2: fast because they can parachute to wildfires when there are
23:21
Speaker 2: no roads or trails nearby and get to work long
23:24
Speaker 2: before anyone could hike or drive to the fire. Smoke
23:27
Speaker 2: Jumping is a physically and mentally demanding line of work
23:29
Speaker 2: that requires a broad knowledge of firefighting. Smoke Jumpers are
23:33
Speaker 2: also heavily involved in prescribed fire management and hazardous fuels
23:37
Speaker 2: reduction efforts. Smoke Jumpers are experienced wildland firefighters with expertise
23:42
Speaker 2: in initial attack firefighting and work with a variety of aircrafts.
23:47
Speaker 2: And who is this incredible woman who made history. We're
23:51
Speaker 2: talking about Dan Shulman. Schulman not only had to work
23:54
Speaker 2: to meet the industry standard at the time, but had
23:56
Speaker 2: to push through the sexism within the industry. So here's
23:59
Speaker 2: a quote from the Nationalfores dot org. The first woman
24:03
Speaker 2: smoke jumper, Dianne Shulman, was hired in nineteen seventy nine,
24:07
Speaker 2: but despite meeting the established physical fitness standards, was washed
24:11
Speaker 2: from the program for being a few pounds under the
24:13
Speaker 2: required weight. This was despite it being known that there
24:16
Speaker 2: was several underweight men on other bases. After filing an
24:20
Speaker 2: Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaint supported by one of those
24:23
Speaker 2: underweight men, Deane was allowed to try again, so long
24:27
Speaker 2: as she weighed at least one hundred and thirty pounds
24:29
Speaker 2: on the first day of her appointment. This requirement has
24:32
Speaker 2: since been lowered to one hundred and twenty pounds, but
24:34
Speaker 2: the physical fitness standards, including one hundred and ten pounds
24:37
Speaker 2: pack test, remained the same. In nineteen eighty one, she
24:40
Speaker 2: completed Rookie Cheney and jumped at the McCall, Idaho smoke
24:44
Speaker 2: Jumper Base for five years. And here's a bit more
24:47
Speaker 2: of her story from an interview she did with Bakersfield's Californian.
24:51
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty one, she became a smoke jumper at
24:54
Speaker 2: McCall Smoke Jumper Base in Idaho. The process of proving
24:57
Speaker 2: herself began yet again, but her intelligence, courage, stamina, strength
25:01
Speaker 2: and knowledge of firefighting won the day. By my fourth season,
25:05
Speaker 2: them smoke jumpers were bragging that they had the first
25:07
Speaker 2: woman smoke jumper. Schulmann remembered, not only has she earned
25:11
Speaker 2: her place as a smoke jumper, she earned the respect
25:14
Speaker 2: of her fellow jumpers. So within the article, she spoke
25:17
Speaker 2: about the harassment she faced being one of two women
25:21
Speaker 2: that was a part of the hot shot crew and
25:22
Speaker 2: even more so with her fighting to become a smoke jumper.
25:26
Speaker 2: But she also talked about how she was able to
25:28
Speaker 2: love the time she had as a smoke jumper.
25:30
Speaker 1: Here's some more from her interview quote. In spite of it,
25:33
Speaker 1: all the pornographic calendars, the juvenile pranks, and the institutional
25:37
Speaker 1: barriers to women, working as a smoke jumper for five
25:41
Speaker 1: seasons was an amazing experience, Shulman said. Underneath all this harassment,
25:46
Speaker 1: I knew they respected me because I could keep up,
25:48
Speaker 1: Shulman told her wrapped audience. I also knew they loved
25:51
Speaker 1: me in a brotherly way. I felt that very deeply.
25:53
Speaker 1: Otherwise I couldn't have been on that crew. It was
25:56
Speaker 1: kind of magical to be in such good physical shape
25:59
Speaker 1: and keeping up with them. She remembered, we got to
26:01
Speaker 1: travel all over to beautiful wilderness areas. The camaraderie of
26:06
Speaker 1: working forty eight hours straight on a fire, Shulman said,
26:09
Speaker 1: you developed all that stuff that happens when groups of
26:12
Speaker 1: people work in adverse situations together.
26:15
Speaker 2: So there's obviously other departments, I guess, or specialties within
26:19
Speaker 2: the wildland firefighters, inclanding, repelling, and then like fuel crew
26:23
Speaker 2: and all of that, and we didn't get into every
26:26
Speaker 2: single one of them. Apparently, it is known that the
26:28
Speaker 2: smoke jumpers get like the most romantic size, because you know,
26:31
Speaker 2: they're jumping out of an airplane with water out of
26:35
Speaker 2: the time, so they get they get some movies about them.
26:37
Speaker 2: I think maybe an actual movie about Shulman, or at
26:40
Speaker 2: least some references to her. I feel like, any this
26:42
Speaker 2: would be something you would want to do once upon
26:45
Speaker 2: a time. Yeah, you would have been like, yeah, I
26:49
Speaker 2: can do this, let me try this. Of course, these
26:52
Speaker 2: are just a few of the amazing women who are
26:54
Speaker 2: breaking down the walls within the industry. But with that,
26:58
Speaker 2: where are we today? Though we do see more women
27:01
Speaker 2: in the field, it is still significantly low. So here's
27:04
Speaker 2: a quote from a twenty twenty National Geographic article titled
27:07
Speaker 2: the Women Battling Wildfires and Breaking Barriers in the American Wilderness.
27:11
Speaker 1: Quote.
27:12
Speaker 2: Now more than ten thousand strong. They gather each summer,
27:15
Speaker 2: mostly in the Western States, two defend national forests and
27:18
Speaker 2: public lands. In the past, women in this male dominated
27:21
Speaker 2: field have faced implicit biases, sexism, and powerful gatekeepers who
27:25
Speaker 2: didn't make them welcome. Today, women still only make up
27:29
Speaker 2: twelve percent of wild and firefighters. So some more recent numbers, though,
27:34
Speaker 2: have shown them that it has gone up to almost
27:36
Speaker 2: thirteen percent. I think it kind of varies. I saw
27:38
Speaker 2: one it says that like twelve point seven percent so E,
27:45
Speaker 2: but the atmosphere hasn't seemed to have been very welcoming
27:48
Speaker 2: even now, and many have faced some issues after starting
27:52
Speaker 2: in the field. Here's a quote from a recent Force
27:54
Speaker 2: Services article. Quote. A twenty nineteen survey by the Pacific
27:59
Speaker 2: Northwest Recent Station found seventy five percent of female wildland
28:03
Speaker 2: firefighters felt out of place due to their gender. The
28:07
Speaker 2: survey also revealed that one third of the employee surveyed
28:11
Speaker 2: believe that personal characteristics such as race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age,
28:17
Speaker 2: disability status, and family caregiver status had hindered their career
28:21
Speaker 2: advancement in wildland.
28:22
Speaker 1: Fire, and with that, the field has also had to
28:35
Speaker 1: face their own me too movement. The issues playing the
28:38
Speaker 1: industry became known within the field in twenty eighteen and
28:41
Speaker 1: were addressed by the vice president of the Association for
28:45
Speaker 1: Fire Ecology at the time. Here's a quote that you
28:49
Speaker 1: can find under for Services quote. The resignation of United
28:53
Speaker 1: States Forest Service Chief Tony Took in March twenty eighteen
28:57
Speaker 1: under allegations of sexual misconduct have highlighted the new need
29:00
Speaker 1: for our wildfire communities to build our collective capacity to
29:03
Speaker 1: confront and address these controversial topics. Sexual harassment, sexual misconduct,
29:09
Speaker 1: and gender discrimination is known to be widespread in many
29:12
Speaker 1: government agencies, including the US Forest Service, National Park Service,
29:16
Speaker 1: and US military. The United States is not alone in
29:19
Speaker 1: facing these issues. Canada and Australia report similar trends, and
29:25
Speaker 1: the report continues with some statistics. In twenty fifteen, an
29:29
Speaker 1: af survey with almost three hundred and fifty respondents revealed
29:33
Speaker 1: that thirty two percent reported observing incidents of sexual harassment
29:37
Speaker 1: in the workplace and twenty four percent experienced it directly.
29:40
Speaker 1: Fifty four percent reported observing gender discrimination of others in
29:44
Speaker 1: the workplace and forty four percent reported experiencing it. Sixty
29:48
Speaker 1: four percent of respondents who experienced sexual harassment and sixty
29:52
Speaker 1: percent who experienced gender discrimination did not report it right.
29:56
Speaker 2: And again this is because a big scannal happened when
30:00
Speaker 2: the lead chief. So that's just a reminder. But in
30:04
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, PBS did a report with women coming forward
30:07
Speaker 2: to about the level of harassment insults that they had
30:10
Speaker 2: experienced within the four services. Three of the women interviewed
30:13
Speaker 2: stated that had been raped by fellow employees as well.
30:17
Speaker 2: And of course these allegations aren't you and five. In
30:19
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, seven women wildland firefighters filed the complaint against
30:24
Speaker 2: the Department of Agriculture quote, alleging that they suffered job discrimination, harassment,
30:28
Speaker 2: and sexual abuse at the hands of male coworkers, and
30:31
Speaker 2: that top agency officials failed to stop it. And this
30:34
Speaker 2: was according to Wildfire Today dot com and Yeah. In
30:37
Speaker 2: that same article, it says September twenty second, twenty sixteen,
30:41
Speaker 2: the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform her testimony
30:44
Speaker 2: from two employees about harassment and the NPS and the USFS.
30:49
Speaker 2: Kelly Martin, fire management officer at Yosemite National Park, described
30:53
Speaker 2: quote a hostile work environment in Yosemite where dozens of
30:56
Speaker 2: individuals have come forward with personal statements of demoralizing behavior,
31:00
Speaker 2: to include acts of bullying, gender biases, and favoritism. She
31:04
Speaker 2: also described sexual harassment in previous jobs where she worked
31:07
Speaker 2: for the USFS. But again, these are the only issues.
31:12
Speaker 2: What about the intersectional communities within this field. Here's some
31:16
Speaker 2: information from a research paper titled gender, sexual orientation, and
31:20
Speaker 2: ethnicity and socioeconomic factors influence how wildland firefighters communicate their
31:25
Speaker 2: work experiences. Approximately eighty three point six percent of wildland
31:30
Speaker 2: firefighters are white, seventy eight point seven percent are male,
31:33
Speaker 2: and ninety three point five percent identify as straight. The
31:37
Speaker 2: numbers are alone are fairly discouraging, but within this research, they
31:40
Speaker 2: also found that the marginalized communities were at much greater
31:43
Speaker 2: risks mentally and physically. So here's some disturbing details within
31:46
Speaker 2: the research. Very limited research exists that contextualizes wildland firefighters,
31:52
Speaker 2: but work on female firefighters in Canada shows that other
31:56
Speaker 2: ring through discrimination and hostility played a key role in
32:00
Speaker 2: women's experiences in the career. Likewise, few studies directly examined
32:04
Speaker 2: the ways in which these stressors may differentially impact minority
32:08
Speaker 2: and modulize wildland firefighters. Those that do report trends in
32:12
Speaker 2: experiences rather than context. A quantitative survey of wildland firefighters
32:16
Speaker 2: experiences observed significantly higher rates of reported injury in bipock
32:21
Speaker 2: wildland firefighters than wildland firefighters. Similarly, they found occupational fatality
32:28
Speaker 2: for black workers was one point three to one point
32:31
Speaker 2: five times higher than that of white workers, and they
32:34
Speaker 2: also found that black women were more likely to be
32:37
Speaker 2: injured than white women while working in agricultural settings.
32:41
Speaker 1: And of course, the mental health issues and crises that
32:43
Speaker 1: happen with this field are substantial. Unfortunately, the data seems
32:48
Speaker 1: to be lacking. As you can tell, some research is
32:51
Speaker 1: being conducted, but it does seem that a lot warnings
32:55
Speaker 1: to be done. Here's a bit from psychiatryonline dot org
32:59
Speaker 1: about whole thing quote. A national survey of all types
33:03
Speaker 1: of firefighters conducted several years back found that fifty five
33:06
Speaker 1: percent of firefighters reported a history of suicidal behavior, compared
33:11
Speaker 1: with thirty two percent of non wildlane firefighters, according to
33:15
Speaker 1: a report by Ian H. Stanley and Moore in the
33:18
Speaker 1: August twenty eighteen Psychiatry Research, One potential explanation was that
33:23
Speaker 1: wildland firefighters reported less sense of belongingness, such as having
33:28
Speaker 1: few friends and feeling disconnected from other people. However, out
33:31
Speaker 1: of more than one one hundred respondents, only twenty were
33:35
Speaker 1: wildland firefighters, the rest being structural firefighters.
33:39
Speaker 2: Right and they continue. Recently, dedicated researchers, many with tie
33:43
Speaker 2: to the wildland firefighter community, have begun to bring in
33:47
Speaker 2: a more quantitative data on a variety of health and
33:49
Speaker 2: wellness topics. Patricia O'Brien, PhD, a prior wildland firefighter who
33:54
Speaker 2: went on to pursue a psychology degree, surveyed over twenty
33:57
Speaker 2: six hundred current, former and retired wildline firefighters as part
34:01
Speaker 2: of her dissertation. Respondents filled out a variety of mental
34:05
Speaker 2: health screening measures and answered other questions about their experiences.
34:08
Speaker 2: She presented her findings in twenty twenty one at the
34:11
Speaker 2: Wildfire sixth Annual Human Dimensions Conference, and they were alarming.
34:15
Speaker 2: Seventeen percent of wildland firefighters reported symptoms consistent with diagnosis
34:19
Speaker 2: of depression and thirteen percent reported symptoms consistent with generalized anxiety,
34:24
Speaker 2: and both about two to three times higher than the
34:26
Speaker 2: general populations. The prevalence of probable post traumatic stress disorder
34:31
Speaker 2: was nearly fourteen percent, which is four times the rate
34:33
Speaker 2: in the general population. Further, less than half of the
34:36
Speaker 2: respondents who had symptoms consistent with PTSD reported that they
34:40
Speaker 2: had been clinically diagnosed with the disorder, highlighting that this
34:43
Speaker 2: condition remains underdetected, unrecognized, and undertreated in a clearly at
34:48
Speaker 2: risk group. More than half of the respondents reported binstrinking
34:53
Speaker 2: at least once in the past month, while twenty two
34:55
Speaker 2: percent reported heavy drinking, and not surprisingly, cigarette use was
34:59
Speaker 2: rare in this grow, but nearly thirty seven percent use
35:01
Speaker 2: smokeless tobacco products.
35:04
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, with the relatively newer information, there doesn't seem to
35:08
Speaker 1: be a whole lot of resources for wildland firefighters. The
35:12
Speaker 1: conversation of whether or not the government should be providing
35:15
Speaker 1: services along the lines of VA healthcare has been ongoing,
35:18
Speaker 1: but because of the structure of the field, it seems
35:21
Speaker 1: part of confusion is who has authority over which unit.
35:25
Speaker 2: Right, I kind of just spreads in different areas where
35:29
Speaker 2: who is under what governmental authority, So they are not
35:36
Speaker 2: unifying in how they should be treated or even recognizing
35:39
Speaker 2: the fight that they need to be treated. I think
35:40
Speaker 2: also part of the conversation, and I've seen this a
35:42
Speaker 2: lot when it comes to seasonal workers, even though it's seasonal,
35:45
Speaker 2: because of the way this goes about and not necessarily
35:50
Speaker 2: because it's like it's a sale. Is it a Christmas sell?
35:53
Speaker 2: You know, like you know what I mean that. I
35:56
Speaker 2: think they really do see this as less hectic, but
36:00
Speaker 2: the amount of pressure I'm sure that they go through
36:02
Speaker 2: is intense just in general firefighters, but because the firefighters
36:05
Speaker 2: are ongoing and often see as an emergency response continuously,
36:10
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if that's like they're seen as civil servants,
36:13
Speaker 2: even though I would assume the four services are federal level.
36:18
Speaker 2: But yet they still haven't gotten to the point they're like,
36:20
Speaker 2: oh yeah, maybe we should provide some services other than
36:22
Speaker 2: when they get hurt hurt ah. So the question is
36:26
Speaker 2: has the culture really changed. The numbers seem like they're
36:30
Speaker 2: kind of rising again, not significantly, zero point seven percent
36:34
Speaker 2: looked like more attention has been brought about the need
36:37
Speaker 2: for diversity, but again, it doesn't seem to be fast
36:41
Speaker 2: in this progression. However, there have been several initiatives that
36:45
Speaker 2: have been implemented in order to bring some equal opportunities.
36:49
Speaker 2: One of the programs out there is including the California
36:52
Speaker 2: Conservation Corps or the CCC, and here's some information from
36:55
Speaker 2: nineteenth news dot org. The California Conservation Corps or CCC
37:00
Speaker 2: a paid conservation work development program for their residents ages
37:04
Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty five. Unlike the Civilian Conservation Corps, a
37:08
Speaker 2: program started under President Franklin D. Roosevelt aimed at putting
37:12
Speaker 2: men to work in the National Parts and Force. The
37:14
Speaker 2: California version has been co ed since its launch in
37:18
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. However, women make up only twenty five
37:22
Speaker 2: percent of the CORE members, depending on which of the
37:25
Speaker 2: twenty four centers they are located at. The work CCC
37:28
Speaker 2: members do range from apprenticeships in conservation, habit restoration, and
37:33
Speaker 2: energy to emergency management assistance in fires, floods, and mudslides.
37:37
Speaker 2: Part of the CCC's mandate is to recruit from low
37:40
Speaker 2: income or otherwise marginalized population, providing a pathway into good jobs.
37:46
Speaker 2: The CORE requires that participants who don't have a high
37:49
Speaker 2: school diploma participate in the education program that allows members
37:52
Speaker 2: to take classes alongside their cores work to earn one.
37:57
Speaker 2: So even though this is not the greatest program, at
38:00
Speaker 2: least as co ed and I did see other organizations
38:03
Speaker 2: do pull from that program to put into their own internship.
38:07
Speaker 2: So it could be a good opportunity. Oh that could
38:10
Speaker 2: always be better, but at least they look at some
38:11
Speaker 2: of the marginalized communities.
38:13
Speaker 1: Yes, there are also programs like Women in Wildland Fire,
38:17
Speaker 1: which even hosts events. Here's some information from their site.
38:22
Speaker 1: We are current and former wildline firefighters who have come
38:25
Speaker 1: together to share the experiences of Women in Fire. We
38:28
Speaker 1: aim to explore the challenges faced, highlight the progress made,
38:32
Speaker 1: and build a community to support and assist women and
38:35
Speaker 1: other underrepresented groups in this field, right.
38:38
Speaker 2: And not only do they put on interesting events that
38:41
Speaker 2: the one just happened in April where they had different
38:44
Speaker 2: speakers come through, but they also have guides on how
38:47
Speaker 2: to apply for jobs and even give you a list
38:48
Speaker 2: of jobs that are opened and help you with like
38:51
Speaker 2: employment guides, So that's good. And they have a great
38:53
Speaker 2: list of resources and organizations to look into for more
38:57
Speaker 2: help or information, so they've got some access. So they
39:00
Speaker 2: also have like some podcasts that they recommend about women
39:04
Speaker 2: in wildland fire fighting, so a lot of information from them,
39:08
Speaker 2: and there's several more in different states have started doing
39:12
Speaker 2: different programs as well. Obviously when we're talking about states,
39:14
Speaker 2: we're talking more about the Western area. I saw some
39:18
Speaker 2: for Colorado, obviously, California and Washington, which is some of
39:22
Speaker 2: the big stuff that is happening because we are in
39:25
Speaker 2: the season. Unfortunately, and as we read in that New
39:28
Speaker 2: York Times article, it has already begun. We know wildland
39:32
Speaker 2: fire has been raising due to a dude lighting his
39:37
Speaker 2: car on fire and just wanting to set something on fire.
39:39
Speaker 2: And this has been a conversation of a lot of
39:42
Speaker 2: concerns about again, what is happening with the environment, what
39:46
Speaker 2: is the causes? How do we stop it? The suppression conversation,
39:49
Speaker 2: the control burning conversation is a lot, but it's good
39:53
Speaker 2: to know that there are some good people out there
39:54
Speaker 2: doing what they can, risking their lives for us.
39:57
Speaker 1: So thank you, yes, yes, thank you and listeners. If
40:01
Speaker 1: you have any experience with this, whether it's you or
40:05
Speaker 1: someone you know, if you have any resources, anything we
40:08
Speaker 1: should check out, please let us know. You can email
40:13
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40:15
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40:20
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40:24
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Speaker 1: our executive pruser Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you,
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40:32
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