Transcript

#70 Cayden · Heavyweight

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin. What?
0:24
Speaker 2: Sorry, we were cut off. We didn't have a proper goodbye,
0:27
Speaker 2: so I was just calling back.
0:28
Speaker 1: We weren't.
0:28
Speaker 2: So take care.
0:29
Speaker 1: We weren't cut off.
0:31
Speaker 2: Oh, you hung up on my face.
0:33
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Thank you.
0:35
Speaker 2: Before you go, are you an innie or an outie?
0:38
Speaker 2: That's all. I'm asking because I was just going to
0:40
Speaker 2: buy you a sweatshirt for Simchas Torah. All right, let's go.
0:43
Speaker 1: Oh, hi.
0:43
Speaker 2: How are you?
0:44
Speaker 1: Good to see you.
0:48
Speaker 2: It's very surprising to me to even see how polite
0:50
Speaker 2: you can be to other people. I am.
0:53
Speaker 1: I'm very polite.
0:54
Speaker 2: Why can't you be like that with me?
0:55
Speaker 1: I am.
1:03
Speaker 2: From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.
1:10
Speaker 2: Today's episode, Caden. Right after the break.
1:26
Speaker 1: Hi.
1:26
Speaker 2: Caden, hi.
1:27
Speaker 1: Hello.
1:28
Speaker 2: I think you're the first Caden I've met.
1:30
Speaker 1: You're the second Jonathan I've interacted with today.
1:33
Speaker 2: Oh.
1:34
Speaker 1: I have a student named Jonathan.
1:35
Speaker 2: Oh, our experiences are quite the opposite. Caden teaches eighth
1:41
Speaker 2: grade to students named Jonathan and possibly other names too.
1:46
Speaker 2: He's here to tell me a story about when he
1:48
Speaker 2: was in eighth grade. Back then, Caden was the kind
1:51
Speaker 2: of kid who ate lunch alone. He kept to himself
1:55
Speaker 2: and followed the rules. Even at his church youth group,
1:58
Speaker 2: the main social hub of his life, Caden remained on
2:01
Speaker 2: the sidelines. It's in youth group that his story takes place.
2:06
Speaker 1: People at church were always like, wow, you'd be like
2:09
Speaker 1: a really good pastor. Like, you're really stoic, quiet. And
2:14
Speaker 1: I remember being like, I don't know, I think part
2:16
Speaker 1: of being a pastor is you do have to speak.
2:19
Speaker 2: If the meek did inherit the earth, Caden would have
2:22
Speaker 2: been first in line. But when approached by the Lord
2:25
Speaker 2: with a quick claim to sign, Caden would have been
2:28
Speaker 2: too shy to ask for a pen. In the summer
2:35
Speaker 2: of 2013, his church's youth group headed off for a
2:39
Speaker 2: mission trip to Oklahoma. They were meeting up with several
2:42
Speaker 2: other churches to help clean up after a recent tornado.
2:46
Speaker 2: You were going there to do disaster relief?
2:49
Speaker 1: Yes, which is funny in retrospect. It's like, what were 13,
2:52
Speaker 1: 14-year-olds going to do?
2:56
Speaker 2: When they got to the dorms where they'd be staying,
2:58
Speaker 2: Caden's youth pastor pulled him aside. It was then that
3:02
Speaker 2: he told him about Andrew. Andrew was another kid on
3:06
Speaker 2: the trip. The pastor said Andrew was a little loud,
3:10
Speaker 2: a little chaotic, but maybe Caden could be a good influence.
3:15
Speaker 2: The pastor then informed Caden that for the duration of
3:17
Speaker 2: the trip, he'd be rooming with Andrew.
3:20
Speaker 1: I go into this room, and the kid's already there.
3:24
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my, we've been here for 10 minutes,
3:27
Speaker 1: and all your clothes are out and about. And then
3:30
Speaker 1: here's me, like, clinging to my bag. I'm like, I'm
3:33
Speaker 1: scared to put it down. What if he rummages through
3:35
Speaker 1: or something? Right. I mean, he was such a different
3:39
Speaker 1: personality than me. Just a mile a minute, flying with ideas.
3:44
Speaker 1: I remember he was, like, starting to do, like, a
3:46
Speaker 1: little workout in the room. Like, he was doing push-ups.
3:52
Speaker 2: While Andrew pushed floor, possibly while shirtless, Caden, fully shirted,
3:58
Speaker 2: possibly even undershirted, slumped on the edge of the bed.
4:02
Speaker 2: As they settled in, Andrew found a box of tampons
4:05
Speaker 2: that had been left behind. Pulling one out, he swung
4:09
Speaker 2: it by the string like a lasso. Caden looked on
4:13
Speaker 2: in horror. How, he wondered, was he going to exert
4:17
Speaker 2: influence over Andrew? The next morning, they rose early and
4:25
Speaker 2: got to work, which mostly meant picking up garbage in
4:28
Speaker 2: the height of summer.
4:28
Speaker 1: It was 90 degrees. It was really sweaty. I had
4:32
Speaker 1: to clean a porta potty, which was terrible. You have
4:35
Speaker 1: to really love God. I mean, we were out in
4:37
Speaker 1: the sun for hours and hours and hours. And I
4:40
Speaker 1: remember at some point we were taking a break near
4:43
Speaker 1: the van.
4:44
Speaker 2: Caden was sitting with some girls from his youth group.
4:46
Speaker 1: And they're like, hey, like, what's your roommate going on about?
4:50
Speaker 2: Caden looked over and saw Andrew holding court before a
4:53
Speaker 2: group of kids.
4:54
Speaker 1: He was just kind of going off about something.
4:57
Speaker 2: And the topic of his impromptu sermon?
4:59
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm bisexual. I'm bisexual. And I remember that
5:06
Speaker 1: being the first time I'd ever heard someone say those
5:10
Speaker 1: words in real life. And I heard him say it,
5:14
Speaker 1: and I had this drop in my gut.
5:24
Speaker 2: Hearing Andrew just casually admit to something like that frightened Caden.
5:28
Speaker 1: I was so scared of it because I was starting
5:31
Speaker 1: to understand it in myself. I'd been questioning my own
5:35
Speaker 1: sexuality for a few years to that point. It was
5:39
Speaker 1: constantly top of mind, every day. Like, turn on incognito
5:44
Speaker 1: mode and take the early 2010's Am I Gay quiz
5:49
Speaker 1: from some random website and manipulating the answer so that
5:53
Speaker 1: way it said no, because we don't want that.
5:56
Speaker 2: And you would not voice this to anybody, any friends?
5:58
Speaker 1: I had never voiced this to anyone. We don't say that.
6:03
Speaker 1: It was a very conservative church environment.
6:06
Speaker 2: To illustrate, Caden shares an example from a couple years later.
6:11
Speaker 1: I remember when the same-sex marriage ruling came down in 2015.
6:15
Speaker 1: I went into church for the first time since that
6:17
Speaker 1: ruling came out. And I've never experienced this otherwise, but
6:21
Speaker 1: they refused to turn the lights on in the building
6:24
Speaker 1: because it was a day of mourning. Wow. This is, like,
6:29
Speaker 1: maybe not the ultimate sin, but it is up there high.
6:34
Speaker 2: Caden had learned that being queer was something you stuffed
6:36
Speaker 2: down and buried. It wasn't declared loudly nor proudly like
6:40
Speaker 2: Andrew had, especially not to people you barely knew, especially
6:45
Speaker 2: not on a church trip.
6:47
Speaker 1: And so I was so just like, How is he
6:51
Speaker 1: doing that? And why is he doing that? I remember
6:57
Speaker 1: that night we came back. I was so worried about
7:01
Speaker 1: betraying anything, of being curious, because that was another emotion.
7:05
Speaker 1: It's like when you see the scary animal at the zoo,
7:08
Speaker 1: but you want to get closer to the glass, but
7:09
Speaker 1: you never want to go past the glass. And I
7:12
Speaker 1: remember being back in the room, and he's like, I'm bisexual.
7:18
Speaker 1: I'm like, I've heard. I've heard. And at the time
7:23
Speaker 1: I was like, I really have, I have like every
7:25
Speaker 1: question under the sun and I refuse to ask any
7:29
Speaker 1: of them.
7:31
Speaker 2: As the trip wore on though, a change occurred in Caden.
7:34
Speaker 2: Rather than Caden tamping down Andrew, Andrew was tamping up Caden.
7:40
Speaker 2: When Andrew dropped to the floor to do his pushups,
7:43
Speaker 2: Caden would do pushups too. He'd also join Andrew on
7:47
Speaker 2: his explorations of the dorms, even sneaking into off-limits areas
7:51
Speaker 2: of the building and out to the parking lot at night.
7:55
Speaker 2: For someone as sheltered as Caden, it felt taboo and exciting.
8:00
Speaker 2: Andrew was like a passkey.
8:01
Speaker 1: I remember warming up to him in a way that
8:08
Speaker 1: I couldn't admit to anyone. I started to understand of
8:11
Speaker 1: him to be such a cooler person. And so throughout
8:14
Speaker 1: the week, the more we talked, the more I was
8:16
Speaker 1: just like, I wonder what that would be like to
8:20
Speaker 1: be him for a moment.
8:28
Speaker 2: On the last day of the trip, everyone said their
8:30
Speaker 2: goodbyes and exchanged phone numbers. Did you keep in touch
8:33
Speaker 2: with Andrew after that?
8:35
Speaker 1: So I didn't have a phone at the time, and
8:39
Speaker 1: I was borrowing my mom's cell phone.
8:42
Speaker 2: So a week later, when Caden's mom started getting texts
8:45
Speaker 2: from someone named Andrew, she was confused.
8:48
Speaker 1: She was like, who's texting me? Who's this person?
8:52
Speaker 2: And Caden, because he felt he couldn't say anything, just
8:56
Speaker 2: watched as his mother deleted the contact. But in the
9:00
Speaker 2: months to come, he kept thinking about Andrew, thinking about
9:03
Speaker 2: what it would feel like to be so comfortable in
9:06
Speaker 2: your own skin. For Caden, someone who felt embarrassed by
9:10
Speaker 2: his mere existence, This was a big, almost impossible thought.
9:21
Speaker 2: The following year, Caden got his own phone, and while
9:24
Speaker 2: texting a friend one day, he thought back to Andrew.
9:27
Speaker 2: Andrew had been able to come out to strangers, so
9:30
Speaker 2: Caden should at least be able to come out to
9:32
Speaker 2: a friend. And that's what he did.
9:36
Speaker 1: Sort of.
9:37
Speaker 2: He texted his friend, I'm G.
9:39
Speaker 1: And then he was like... you're what? Like, I don't
9:43
Speaker 1: know what that means. I'm like, let me give you
9:44
Speaker 1: the second letter. And then finally I'm like, oh shoot,
9:47
Speaker 1: this is a really short word. And then I remember
9:50
Speaker 1: being like, well, screw it, like Andrew did. And I sent,
9:54
Speaker 1: I'm gay.
9:56
Speaker 2: And how was it received by your friend?
9:59
Speaker 1: Like the best I could ask for. Oh, that's cool.
10:01
Speaker 1: I remember being like, okay, like I did what Andrew
10:05
Speaker 1: did in less of an outburst-y way. He kind of
10:11
Speaker 1: set me up to be like, well, if he can
10:13
Speaker 1: do it in his way, then I can do it
10:16
Speaker 1: in my way. And then I did. And then the
10:23
Speaker 1: next time when I came out to more friends when
10:25
Speaker 1: I was 15, a year later, like, Every time, when
10:29
Speaker 1: I was 16, to my parents, 17, like, kept going back, well, like,
10:33
Speaker 1: Andrew did it.
10:34
Speaker 2: Wow.
10:34
Speaker 1: If he did it, and then, so I did it again,
10:37
Speaker 1: and again.
10:38
Speaker 2: But there's one person Cadence always wanted to come out
10:41
Speaker 2: to that he's not been able to. His inspiration, Andrew.
10:47
Speaker 2: The problem is, he's never been able to find him.
10:50
Speaker 1: I'd want to just say thank you, because I think...
10:54
Speaker 1: I was so isolated, repressed, quiet, and I didn't know
11:00
Speaker 1: an escape hatch. And he didn't even provide an escape hatch.
11:05
Speaker 1: He just provided like an open field of like, you
11:07
Speaker 1: can just go and do that.
11:10
Speaker 2: Thirteen years later, and Caden is in his mid-twenties. He's
11:14
Speaker 2: left the church and gone from being the quiet kid
11:17
Speaker 2: to someone who strikes up long conversations with strangers. And
11:20
Speaker 2: if he's been able to get to that place, he
11:23
Speaker 2: can only imagine where Andrew has gotten.
11:25
Speaker 1: Who could he be now? I'd love to know where
11:31
Speaker 1: he ended up. I hope I didn't influence him the
11:34
Speaker 1: wrong way, like a Freaky Friday situation. He's on a
11:39
Speaker 1: Christian broadcast recording talking about how I influenced him to
11:43
Speaker 1: be stoic and repressive.
11:48
Speaker 2: After the break, we find out.
11:50
Speaker 1: This is, like, every, like, homophobic parent family's worst fear is, like,
11:55
Speaker 1: you go on the church trip and you come back gay. Caden? Caden? Howdy.
12:21
Speaker 2: Are those overalls or coveralls?
12:24
Speaker 1: They are overalls. It's overall Friday because I'm over it all.
12:28
Speaker 2: Hey, nice.
12:31
Speaker 1: The kids say I'm a bit of a poser with them.
12:33
Speaker 1: They're like... Why?
12:34
Speaker 2: Oh, because you don't actually work with your hands.
12:36
Speaker 1: I don't need overalls. It's just the aesthetic.
12:39
Speaker 2: Sure. So, yeah, what's been going on since we last spoke?
12:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, so nothing and then suddenly something.
12:50
Speaker 2: It's been several months since Caden and I last spoke.
12:54
Speaker 2: In the meantime, he's taken the lead on Project Find Andrew.
12:57
Speaker 2: I'd suggest that he start by reaching out to his
13:00
Speaker 2: old youth pastor. And when that didn't bear fruit, Caden
13:04
Speaker 2: just kept going, reaching out to a chain of different
13:07
Speaker 2: pastors at different churches, hoping to find someone who knew
13:11
Speaker 2: Andrew back then. But it was all dead ends. Until
13:15
Speaker 2: one day, when Caden got a message from Andrew's old
13:18
Speaker 2: youth pastor. And the message contained Andrew's full name and
13:22
Speaker 2: contact information.
13:24
Speaker 1: I was really excited and I was like overwhelmed. I
13:26
Speaker 1: was like, I didn't want to like reach out right
13:28
Speaker 1: away because I was like, it is later in the evening.
13:32
Speaker 1: So I did naturally was like, I wonder if I
13:34
Speaker 1: can find him on social media. I scrolled through like
13:37
Speaker 1: 30 different Facebook pages and I found his Facebook of Andrew.
13:41
Speaker 2: And this is where a problem arose. A freaky problem.
13:47
Speaker 1: Just kind of getting the sense that there's a chance
13:51
Speaker 1: that this person I've built in my memory doesn't necessarily
13:54
Speaker 1: reflect a current reality.
13:56
Speaker 2: The first thing Caden noted was Andrew's profile photo.
14:07
Speaker 1: Let me pull up his picture. Okay. Because I think
14:10
Speaker 1: there's this like visual cue of like.
14:12
Speaker 2: Oh, he looks like Mr. Straight Guy. Yeah. He's got
14:17
Speaker 2: a backwards baseball cap. He's got, Shades hanging off his t-shirt.
14:21
Speaker 2: He's got his foot up on a semi?
14:24
Speaker 1: Like a truck? It's like a plane.
14:26
Speaker 2: Oh, it's an airplane. But it wasn't just the hat,
14:30
Speaker 2: the airplane, nor the foot on the airplane. Andrew's profile
14:34
Speaker 2: was full of memes. Like this one.
14:37
Speaker 1: Don't gay people realize that they actually need straight people
14:41
Speaker 1: and not the other way around? And I was like, whoa. Whoa.
14:47
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting.
14:48
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. It's like that classic homophobia of gay people exist, maybe.
14:57
Speaker 1: And if they do, it's because it's straight people. You
14:59
Speaker 1: can't have two gay people make a straight person. They
15:02
Speaker 1: can't reproduce.
15:04
Speaker 2: Caden grew up hearing this kind of thing, but he
15:07
Speaker 2: didn't expect to hear it from Andrew.
15:09
Speaker 1: I actually just found this one. He has a meme
15:13
Speaker 1: on here that says, straight pride. It's natural. It's worked
15:17
Speaker 1: for thousands of years and you can make babies.
15:22
Speaker 2: The way that you described him back then, I thought
15:24
Speaker 2: like he was going to be on the top echelon
15:28
Speaker 2: of like the main float of a pride parade or something.
15:32
Speaker 1: Same. I would have expected that.
15:35
Speaker 2: Caden's gone from feeling excited to meet Andrew to feeling apprehensive,
15:40
Speaker 2: especially apprehensive given the moment we're living through now.
15:43
Speaker 1: From, like, 2015 to 2017, like, there was, like, this
15:47
Speaker 1: upward trajectory, so it seemed culturally, of, like, same-sex marriage and, like,
15:52
Speaker 1: I think people sometimes forget, like, Donald Trump, when asked about, like,
15:56
Speaker 1: transgender bathrooms, did not care about it. I think it
16:00
Speaker 1: was Caitlyn Jenner. He was like, she can use the
16:02
Speaker 1: women's restroom. There was that moment where you could be
16:05
Speaker 1: out and expressive and the culture had your back. Even
16:10
Speaker 1: if individuals didn't, like, the culture did. And I think, uh,
16:14
Speaker 1: That's something we've seen a shift on. Being out is
16:18
Speaker 1: considered a little bit radical again.
16:24
Speaker 2: Because of that shift, Caden finds himself more guarded. He
16:28
Speaker 2: doesn't talk about being gay at the public school where
16:31
Speaker 2: he teaches. And in the emails he sent to churches
16:34
Speaker 2: during his search for Andrew, he hedged in his language.
16:38
Speaker 2: Instead of saying, I want to find Andrew because he
16:41
Speaker 2: helped me come out, he instead said, I want to
16:44
Speaker 2: find Andrew because he made a positive impact. He was
16:47
Speaker 2: a light. But that isn't the way he wants to
16:50
Speaker 2: talk to Andrew. The problem is, though, he's not sure
16:54
Speaker 2: who Andrew has become. It's like Caden wants to thank
16:57
Speaker 2: the young Andrew, but to do that, he'll have to
17:00
Speaker 2: talk to adult Andrew, and he's not sure who that is.
17:04
Speaker 1: I also don't want to amplify his homophobia, um, I
17:10
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to say like, hey, that thing that
17:13
Speaker 1: you dislike, you made me that way and like lead
17:15
Speaker 1: him on a further path of like resentment. I think
17:23
Speaker 1: it'd be helpful to have someone else just reach out.
17:27
Speaker 1: So that way, if it feels like, oh, like this
17:31
Speaker 1: is someone who you probably don't want, like just someone
17:33
Speaker 1: who can help facilitate, that would be really appreciated.
17:38
Speaker 2: I'm eager to finally make myself useful, since while Caden
17:42
Speaker 2: was searching for Andrew, I was spending the bulk of
17:45
Speaker 2: my time Googling, what's an overall Friday? Great work. I
17:49
Speaker 2: didn't know that we were going to find him. I mean,
17:51
Speaker 2: Andrew did not seem to be a lot to go by.
17:54
Speaker 1: But now he's here.
17:56
Speaker 2: Now he's here. He's queer. Maybe, maybe not.
18:03
Speaker 1: We'll see. We will see.
18:22
Speaker 2: When I go to Andrew's confusing, homophobic, meme-filled Facebook page
18:27
Speaker 2: to message him, I make a discovery. Linked to his
18:31
Speaker 2: Facebook page is his fiancée' s page. And on his fiancée' s page,
18:36
Speaker 2: her profile picture is framed by the pride flag. There
18:40
Speaker 2: are even photos of her and Andrew together, framed in
18:42
Speaker 2: rainbow colors. What in the name of Francis Ethel Gumm
18:47
Speaker 2: is going on here? While the discovery further baffles me,
18:54
Speaker 2: it does allay some of my concerns about Andrew's views.
18:58
Speaker 2: And so, I message Andrew. And after some back and forth,
19:02
Speaker 2: he and I finally speak on the phone. I quickly
19:05
Speaker 2: learn that Andrew is a man of few words. When
19:08
Speaker 2: I ask whether he remembers going on that mission trip
19:11
Speaker 2: to Oklahoma, he says, yes. When I ask if he
19:15
Speaker 2: remembers the name Caden, he says, vaguely. I tell him
19:20
Speaker 2: how Caden remembers his brashness, his confidence. Yeah, he says,
19:25
Speaker 2: that sounds like me back then. Not now, I ask? Well,
19:30
Speaker 2: he says, rather cryptically, life teaches you lessons. Andrew seems
19:38
Speaker 2: a little knocked around by life, but he doesn't seem
19:40
Speaker 2: like a threat. And since Caden still wants to talk
19:43
Speaker 2: to him, I decide we should give it a try.
19:47
Speaker 2: While my ability to make connections has been well documented,
19:51
Speaker 2: it's a less known fact that I'm equally adept at
19:53
Speaker 2: making disconnections. So I figure, if the whole thing goes sideways...
19:59
Speaker 2: I can always just disconnect the line.
20:02
Speaker 1: Caden? Howdy.
20:04
Speaker 2: Hey, how are you? All right, so Andrew's standing by.
20:08
Speaker 1: Okay.
20:09
Speaker 2: I will bring up the stuff about his bisexuality.
20:14
Speaker 1: Okay.
20:14
Speaker 2: So that you don't have to.
20:16
Speaker 1: Perfect.
20:18
Speaker 2: But how does one tactfully bring up such things? Were
20:21
Speaker 2: you once bisexual? Are you still? And by the way,
20:26
Speaker 2: do you dislike gay people? All right, let's, uh, let's
20:30
Speaker 2: see Andrew.
20:31
Speaker 1: Okay.
20:33
Speaker 2: And so, I add Andrew to the video call. Andrew?
20:37
Speaker 1: Hey, Jonathan, how are you doing today?
20:40
Speaker 2: Andrew is lounging on a couch. His beard is cut short,
20:44
Speaker 2: and his camp is pointed in a backwards... heterosexual direction.
20:50
Speaker 2: This is Caden. Do you guys, do you recognize each other?
20:53
Speaker 3: Ever so slightly. It's been quite some time.
20:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been double the lifetime.
21:00
Speaker 2: What do you remember from that trip?
21:02
Speaker 3: There was a lot of walking in the sun looking
21:04
Speaker 3: for little bits of metal.
21:06
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember in that field, there
21:09
Speaker 1: was a part where they were like, look out for
21:11
Speaker 1: body parts. We've already done our check, but if you
21:13
Speaker 1: do see, raise your hand and we'll come get that
21:16
Speaker 1: for you. I do. I do remember that, yeah. Yeah.
21:21
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm wondering if Andrew also remembers his speech
21:25
Speaker 2: by the van. So I tee up Caden to talk
21:28
Speaker 2: about the general impression Andrew made back then. My hope
21:32
Speaker 2: is that it might set the stage for the questions
21:34
Speaker 2: I want to ask. Caden, can you explain for Andrew, like, why, like,
21:38
Speaker 2: what it was about him at that time that really
21:40
Speaker 2: kind of was impactful?
21:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, at the time, I was, like, very quiet.
21:47
Speaker 1: And I remember, like, when we first started rooming together,
21:51
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, my gosh, like, you were, you
21:53
Speaker 1: had a lot of, like, opinions and, like, were just
21:57
Speaker 1: very yourself and very confident. And I just really admired that.
22:02
Speaker 2: When Andrew responds... I can't help hearing his words in
22:05
Speaker 2: the context of his van speech.
22:08
Speaker 3: I definitely wasn't afraid to express myself. Really didn't much
22:11
Speaker 3: care what people thought.
22:13
Speaker 2: Are there specific things that you could think of, like
22:17
Speaker 2: declaring your sexual orientation to a van full of strangers?
22:21
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of any specifics, but I really
22:27
Speaker 3: didn't like being told to do stuff that I really
22:30
Speaker 3: didn't feel was right. And I had no problems whatsoever
22:34
Speaker 3: refusing to do that. Mind you, 13-year-old me didn't quite
22:39
Speaker 3: always know what was right. That's for certain.
22:42
Speaker 2: What are you thinking of?
22:43
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm not thinking of anything in particular.
22:51
Speaker 2: As I back and forth with Andrew, I fear I
22:54
Speaker 2: might be inducing a minor panic attack in Caden. This
22:58
Speaker 2: is the sound of Caden's leg. Jiggling. For you to
23:05
Speaker 2: better appreciate his jiggling speed, I've amplified the sound, the
23:09
Speaker 2: way they do in documentaries about insects. So for Caden's sake,
23:18
Speaker 2: and the sake of his poor Elvis leg, I decide
23:21
Speaker 2: to just dive in and ask the question. Um, Andrew,
23:26
Speaker 2: I don't know how comfortable you are talking about this,
23:28
Speaker 2: and if you're not, we... definitely don't have to go
23:34
Speaker 2: in this direction, but one of the things that Caden
23:36
Speaker 2: specifically remembers was how you were able to talk openly
23:41
Speaker 2: at the time about being bisexual. Is that something that
23:47
Speaker 2: you still identify with?
23:48
Speaker 1: No, it's not. Okay.
23:51
Speaker 2: Are you comfortable talking about this?
23:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we can go for it. Yeah?
23:55
Speaker 2: Oh, cool. And with that, Caden's leg comes to rest.
24:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was, like, very much closeted. I am gay,
24:06
Speaker 1: for the record. And I remember at one point you
24:09
Speaker 1: had said you were bisexual and you were just very
24:12
Speaker 1: confident about that. When I first came out to a friend, like,
24:15
Speaker 1: that was, like, your inspiration of, like, well, he's done it.
24:19
Speaker 2: Erring on the side of caution, Caden also adds.
24:23
Speaker 1: And, like, that you don't identify in that way now
24:25
Speaker 1: is totally okay because, like, at that moment it was
24:28
Speaker 1: such a, like, I didn't feel so alone. Good.
24:35
Speaker 2: Good is good. Andrew doesn't seem homophobic, but at the
24:41
Speaker 2: same time, what exactly does he seem? When I ask
24:49
Speaker 2: Andrew about his bisexuality, he's fairly matter-of-fact.
24:53
Speaker 1: I guess it was just something that came, and later on,
24:56
Speaker 1: something that went.
24:58
Speaker 2: It went at some point in his teens. But while
25:01
Speaker 2: he was bi, Andrew insists he was genuinely bi. But now,
25:06
Speaker 2: he's genuinely not. It's not something you often hear, and
25:11
Speaker 2: I don't exactly know how to ask about it. I mean,
25:14
Speaker 2: I don't want to minimize it. Like, would you say
25:15
Speaker 2: it was something that you kind of, like, how do
25:17
Speaker 2: you think about it? Do you think about it as
25:19
Speaker 2: something that you grew out of, or that just evolved?
25:22
Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't say grew out of. I would say
25:25
Speaker 3: I just knew what I liked, knew what I didn't.
25:29
Speaker 2: And that just kind of changed over time.
25:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
25:33
Speaker 2: Rather than being disappointed by this change in Andrew, Caden
25:37
Speaker 2: sees merit in it.
25:39
Speaker 1: That you knew who you were then and you know
25:40
Speaker 1: who you are now I think actually is very admirable
25:44
Speaker 1: because I think it's so hard to have a label
25:48
Speaker 1: in the first place and then to change that.
25:53
Speaker 2: As for Andrew's impulse to proclaim who he was so loudly, proudly,
25:57
Speaker 2: and repeatedly... That might have been because of pressure his
26:01
Speaker 2: parents were putting on him to get in line.
26:04
Speaker 3: Almost an act of rebellion of, you're not going to
26:06
Speaker 3: tell me who I am. I'm the one who decides that.
26:10
Speaker 1: Right.
26:10
Speaker 3: Both family and the church held very strong views against it.
26:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:14
Speaker 1: Family a little bit more strict than the church was.
26:18
Speaker 2: Andrew, are you still involved in the church?
26:21
Speaker 1: No, I'm not. I haven't been in years.
26:24
Speaker 3: It was pushed pretty hard upon me, and my parents
26:27
Speaker 3: would not take no for an answer. got to a
26:29
Speaker 3: point where I turned 18 and they installed a tracker
26:32
Speaker 3: on my phone. And every week that I didn't go
26:34
Speaker 3: to church, they'd actually charge me money.
26:36
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. And that was kind of the breaking point
26:41
Speaker 1: for me.
26:42
Speaker 2: In the back of Caden's mind, there had been the
26:45
Speaker 2: fear that Andrew was now straight because of pressure from
26:49
Speaker 2: the church. But it turns out that wasn't the case.
26:53
Speaker 2: Andrew left the church before posting any of those memes
26:56
Speaker 2: on his Facebook page. So then, how to explain the memes?
27:01
Speaker 2: Where was all of that coming from? There are these
27:05
Speaker 2: memes about straight pride.
27:07
Speaker 1: What are those?
27:08
Speaker 3: I think a lot of it is just getting a
27:12
Speaker 3: rise out of people to get a rise out of people.
27:16
Speaker 3: You do a lot when you're not happy. I don't
27:20
Speaker 3: go on Facebook much, and I don't go through my
27:22
Speaker 3: profile much. Truthfully, I forgot those were up. Definitely not
27:26
Speaker 3: my Proudest moments.
27:34
Speaker 2: Andrew is now in his mid-twenties. When I go back
27:37
Speaker 2: to check the dates on the memes, they're all concentrated
27:40
Speaker 2: around eight years ago, the summer and fall he was 19.
27:44
Speaker 2: He says it was a bad time.
27:46
Speaker 3: I won't go into too much detail, but I got
27:49
Speaker 3: kicked out of the house because of my parents' divorce
27:52
Speaker 3: and of getting someone else upset. Makes you feel a
27:56
Speaker 3: little bit less worse about yourself. That's kind of how
27:58
Speaker 3: I would handle it.
27:59
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:00
Speaker 2: After being forced to leave home, Andrew moved to Michigan.
28:04
Speaker 2: It was there that he met his fiancée. And his fiancée?
28:08
Speaker 2: Andrew confirms that she is proudly bi.
28:12
Speaker 3: She's attracted guys and girls.
28:14
Speaker 2: That's all cool?
28:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't care.
28:18
Speaker 2: Andrew isn't the same person he was when he was 13.
28:20
Speaker 2: He isn't the same person he was when he was 19.
28:24
Speaker 2: He's no longer bi. He's no longer loud or chaotic.
28:28
Speaker 2: He keeps his cards pretty close to the vest. But
28:32
Speaker 2: like Andrew says, people change.
28:41
Speaker 3: It's awesome to hear that I left a lasting impact
28:44
Speaker 3: on someone that changed their life for the better and
28:47
Speaker 3: that they're living a happier, comfortable life because of who
28:51
Speaker 3: I was when I was a kid. I always just
28:53
Speaker 3: thought I was a menace. I'm grateful I was able
28:58
Speaker 3: to make an impact like that. Truthfully, I didn't know.
29:07
Speaker 1: I'm just a dude.
29:09
Speaker 3: I'm just a guy who goes to work in the morning,
29:11
Speaker 3: comes home, eats some food, takes a shower, goes to bed.
29:16
Speaker 2: But for Caden, he's more than that. Andrew was a
29:20
Speaker 2: rainbow-colored meteor blazing across his childhood, a kind of miracle
29:25
Speaker 2: when he needed one most. And while Andrew might no
29:29
Speaker 2: longer be the tampon-swinging outlaw Caden remembers, he's still willing
29:33
Speaker 2: to talk publicly about what he feels and believes, no
29:36
Speaker 2: matter what people may think. And in that way, Andrew
29:40
Speaker 2: is still Andrew.
29:46
Speaker 1: Proud of you, Caden? Really am. Thank you.
29:50
Speaker 3: Doing awesome, man. And in some weird way, me helping
29:55
Speaker 3: you is helping me.
29:58
Speaker 1: Take it easy, y'all. Thank you, Jonathan.
30:00
Speaker 2: Thank you, Andrew. Take it easy.
30:03
Speaker 1: Well.
30:06
Speaker 2: That was... Uh, surprising?
30:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. In all the good ways. I was so nervous.
30:16
Speaker 1: And now I'm just like, I feel really elated, happy.
30:21
Speaker 1: I don't know, like there was part of me before
30:24
Speaker 1: I got in this phone calls, I'm like, I can't
30:26
Speaker 1: say the words I'm gay to him.
30:28
Speaker 2: Really?
30:28
Speaker 1: Like I was at work today just being like, how
30:32
Speaker 1: do you come out to the person who taught you
30:33
Speaker 1: how to come out to people? Yeah. And then I did,
30:37
Speaker 1: and I was like, and I think that's a lesson
30:39
Speaker 1: I'll keep learning for myself.
30:42
Speaker 2: What is that lesson?
30:45
Speaker 1: It's all right to be who I am.
30:48
Speaker 2: When I ask Caden if he ever sees himself coming
30:50
Speaker 2: out to his students, he says that's a line he
30:53
Speaker 2: still wonders about. But he keeps a pride flag in
30:56
Speaker 2: his classroom so that kids like him know it's a
30:59
Speaker 2: safe spot. He says at a recent pride event, he
31:03
Speaker 2: ran into a few former students and their families They
31:06
Speaker 2: were excited to see him. They knew you'd be here,
31:09
Speaker 2: one of the students said. And that felt nice. Now,
31:14
Speaker 2: Caden can be someone else's passkey.
31:16
Speaker 1: The End Furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that
32:10
Speaker 1: the last month's rent.
32:12
Speaker 3: Is scheming with the damage deposit Take.
32:16
Speaker 1: This moment to.
32:17
Speaker 3: Decide If we meant it, if we.
32:22
Speaker 2: Tried Or felt around for far too much From things
32:30
Speaker 2: that accidentally touch This episode of Heavyweight was produced by
32:38
Speaker 2: Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Lisa Wang.
32:42
Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon.
32:47
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Ben Natafhaffrey, Lucy Sullivan, Lydia Jean Cott,
32:51
Speaker 2: and Jackie Cohen. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original
32:54
Speaker 2: music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Emma Munger, and
32:57
Speaker 2: Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Luke Janela and Blue Dot Sessions.
33:02
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of
33:04
Speaker 2: Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at heavyweightpodcast or email
33:09
Speaker 2: us at heavyweight at pushkin.fm. And be sure to subscribe
33:13
Speaker 2: to our free newsletter at patreon.com slash heavyweight. We'll be
33:19
Speaker 2: back with a new episode in two weeks.