Latest / The Mental Health Evolution / Ep 32: Virtual Worlds, Real Skills with Dr. Kryn McClain

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Ep 32: Virtual Worlds, Real Skills with Dr. Kryn McClain · The Mental Health Evolution

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This podcast is part of the Frederick Podcast Network.
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Learn more at listenfrederick.com.
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Welcome to Mental Health Evolution, a podcast about what's changing in mental
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health and why it matters.
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I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, inviting you into honest conversations with
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people from all perspectives in the field, clinicians, tech founders,
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investors, insurance companies, and all the folks in between.
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Let's explore what's working, what's not, and what's next.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Evolution podcast, where we talk
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about how the landscape is quickly evolving in the mental health industry
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and why those changes matter.
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I am your host, Rachel Harrison, and we are back today with
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a discussion of innovation with Dr. Crin McClain, who is the founder
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and CEO of Catapollo VR, which harnesses the power of VR to
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empower individuals and transform lives.
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So welcome, Crin.
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Thank you.
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Thank you for having me, Rachel.
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I am so excited to talk to you more about VR.
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My kids love to play VR, so this is definitely a cool
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thing out there in the world.
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And I'd love to just start by saying a little bit about
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what is Catapollo VR?
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What do you do?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So we provide a virtual reality platform for mental health therapists, mostly,
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but also like autism providers and education, hospitals, museums, a lot of
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different sectors.
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But essentially, what we're doing is creating a platform to help accelerate
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mental wellness.
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So we're trying to be that catalyst and that pretty much just
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an accelerant to help people get to wellness safer and faster, and
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hopefully producing those better outcomes for them.
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Because we can incorporate all these realistic environments, we can now
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incorporate all of our senses into the learning experience.
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That's really our goal is to help people feel better faster.
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Yeah.
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And let's talk about that all of the senses piece, because if
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people haven't ever tried VR headset, I think some people have, maybe
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others haven't.
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How would you describe that being different than maybe like when we're
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playing video games or something on a screen?
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So it's certainly different experience for everybody.
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So getting into a space where you are completely blocked out from
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any irrelevant stimuli really enhances the immersion.
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You know, even on a Zoom call, I can see my Teams
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is blowing up, my Discord's blowing up, everything's blowing up, my dog
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just walked under the chair.
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But if I was in VR with you, I wouldn't know any
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of that's going on.
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So it's a completely immersive element to hop into.
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And it's mostly sight, correct?
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Sound and sight, I guess, as far as the senses that you
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were talking about.
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Oh, sure.
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That's a great point.
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So, you know, most VR programs not only do sound and sight,
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but the neat thing is we can now interact.
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So we're also bringing in that element of actually doing and practicing
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things.
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Okay.
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Okay, great.
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This is amazing.
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So I want to kind of rewind a little bit and get
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the story about you because I'm very curious about how all of
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this came to be.
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So what are some of the highlights of your journey?
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And what led you here to find this company and started up?
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I'm kind of one of those serial entrepreneurs where I just, I'm
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a dog with a bone when I see a good idea as
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well.
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But my entrepreneurial journey started back in 2017 when my first son
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was born, you know, had gone on maternity leave and then went
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back to work to find my position was eliminated.
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At that point, I just really wanted to create a space where
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I wanted to work.
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So we set out to do that.
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And out of that first company really came Catapalo.
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So what we started to notice as we're working with teenagers transitioning
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to adulthood, how are we going to get kiddos these skills where
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they can practice in a safe setting, where we don't have a
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kitchen or a laundromat or things that we can bring to them.
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So we started to kick around the idea of virtual reality.
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We started to develop it in that first company, really had some
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great outcomes.
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So we're like, wow, we really want to keep doing this.
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How do we really grow and scale this and get this out
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there to more people?
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So from one company came the next, where we wanted to give
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people access to treatment in a way that can hopefully move through
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the waitlist faster, hopefully get people these skills and get them acquired
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so that they can transition to the real world.
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Because we don't want you staying in virtual reality forever.
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We want you to get the skill and then please use them
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almost like therapists.
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We're always trying to work ourselves out of a job.
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We want to get these skills out there.
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And then from there, we really started with neurodiversity and autism.
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And then we started to see all these other applications for it
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that were quickly evolved into exposure therapy and coming to behavioral
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therapy skills and things we were already doing in therapy, but wanted
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to provide a better resource.
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So therapists can get beyond the worksheet now.
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We can provide this tool for therapists to really provide these immersive
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backgrounds in nature to make an interactive experience where again, we're
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incorporating all of our different senses to enhance that learning experience.
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Yeah.
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Oh, you covered a lot of ground there.
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I'm thinking about when I got to test it out before this
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podcast.
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So thank you for that.
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And I know I saw one that was on like how to
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brush your teeth.
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So speaking to maybe somebody that's working on that skill, which was
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great.
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But then you also had things about emotions and handling emotions.
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And then you also had I did another one that was more
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of a mindfulness kind of exercise.
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So I'm seeing how there are all these different applications.
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How do you get that data of what to build and what
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to create?
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And how does that process work?
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A lot of it, you know, when we first started out came
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from my own personal experience.
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So because I have been a therapist for so many years, specializing
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in trauma, specializing working with kiddos with autism.
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A lot of that came naturally in terms of what we saw
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through the course of treatment.
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But where we really started was we talked to I think between
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50 to 100 parents, teachers, BCBAs, therapists.
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And we really started to try to understand what are we doing
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now?
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What are we missing?
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What are the deficits?
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And that came our first four categories where we realized while there's
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communication and social skill deficits, kids aren't ready to go to work.
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So we need some occupational readiness skills.
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They're struggling with their ready to live skills.
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So those activities for daily livings, or they're also struggling with emotion
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regulation.
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So what we found through that pretty extensive qualitative analysis is
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transition age kids were falling into two or more of those categories.
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Even if they were quote unquote high functioning or low service needs,
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we were still seeing a deficit in those areas.
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So that's where we started to get to work and really think
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about, okay, what can I not replicate in a therapy office that
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would be difficult?
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I'm not going to take a kiddo to an ATM to teach
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him how to use an ATM, right?
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We can't really replicate those things.
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So not only did we develop those categories, but then we developed
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this safe model where it's like, okay, why VR?
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You know, why would anybody want to use this?
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So we try to think of, you know, really pushing it to
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the max.
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Okay, well, what would be maybe risky in the real world, whether
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that's fear of failure or fear of harmfulness to the therapist or
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the client.
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So that's where we started to develop.
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Once we started to acquire customers, now we ask our customers, hey,
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what are we missing?
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What more would you like to see?
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What are the parents?
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What are the clients telling you?
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So we get a lot of information from our current customers as
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well, who are wonderful to work with and they only want to
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see the product develop further.
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So when we can, we try to get to work and get
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that feedback incorporated.
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Right.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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And so tell me, how do people typically incorporate this?
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Is this something people are doing in addition to therapy before therapy
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starts?
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Like, how do you typically integrate that?
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Yeah, so it is during therapy.
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So it's not meant to replace therapists.
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So I do want to be very clear.
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We're not trying to replace anybody or AI our way out of
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this mental health crisis.
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It's not happening.
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You still need that personal touch.
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So we really work on the theory that we're helping to standardize
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some treatment and also provide a resource.
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But we need that therapist or that educator to combine that with
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that human experience.
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So essentially what happens is, you know, you log in like you
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did, and then you would launch a module with a client in
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session.
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You stream it.
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I'm sure as you saw, you get a score at the end
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and you track their progress over time.
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So the goal is really to give professionals that additional resource to
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use in conjunction with their treatment.
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Okay.
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And so therapists would actually have a VR headset to utilize in
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session then with the client?
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Yeah, so they certainly can.
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It is web-based.
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So if they didn't want to use a headset, they could put
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it on a computer or a tablet.
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We always recommend the headset for all the reasons I described earlier
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because it is so much more immersive.
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But if someone was unwilling or unable to wear a headset, they
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certainly could run it off another device.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And then what about practicing at home?
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Is that something that clients ever do as well?
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Not at this stage of the game.
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So it's really meant for a therapist tool.
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So think about like a TheraTap or something that is for a
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therapist.
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Because if we were to send clients home to practice EMDR on
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themselves and do bilateral stimulation, we might not get the results.
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So this is still something that we want in a professional's hand
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to make sure that no one's jumping around to a module that
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maybe they're not ready for yet, especially when we're thinking about those
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exposure modules or when we're thinking about transitioning those skills to the
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real world.
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Just because you go through our cooking series once doesn't necessarily mean
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you're ready to cook.
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You may have to do it for six weeks before that therapist
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might think that you're ready to go ahead and actually sit down
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and try to cook mac and cheese.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Are you seeing those skills being transferable then?
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Like, have you been able to see this work with a client
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where they do the cooking series multiple times and then they are
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able to take some of those skills and transfer them to the
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real world?
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So not only are we seeing that, we're also seeing them generalize
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the skill, which we didn't anticipate.
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So that was fantastic.
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So not only were they able to cook what the module was
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telling them to, they were able to take that skill and transfer
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it to a different item.
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So for example, we teach mac and cheese, but we've had clients
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be able to now cook ramen noodles.
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So same concept, following directions, boiling water, stove safety, just a
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different item.
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So we are seeing some great results with that.
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I love it.
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And then you mentioned MDR, which is certainly my bailiwick.
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So I'm curious, have you integrated this with the MDR as well?
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So there's no bilateral stimulation, but what you can do is use
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those emotion regulation modules.
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So a lot of all the pre-work that we would do
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with clients before we do the bilateral simulation is in there.
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So progressive muscle relaxation and different meditations and things of that
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nature, grounding, radical acceptance, all those things that we work on before
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we do the actual TheraTapper session.
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We don't have the ability to, I'm not sure what the copyright
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rules or the IP is for EMDR, specifically for bilateral simulation.
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So we've kind of steered away from touching on any IP or
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anything like that, but you can certainly use it for the skills
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leading up to that session to help your person become emotionally regulated.
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Right.
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That makes a lot of sense.
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So I'm curious, what is your vision for this?
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If you could just give this to every therapist or integrate this
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into people's work, what would your ideal scenario be?
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What would that look like?
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Yeah, I'd really like to expand who's using it as well.
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So of course, we want to get this out to therapists and
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autism providers, educators, but I do think there's some applicability in
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hospital settings as well for acute and chronic pain, certainly in that
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arena as well.
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And then also in different areas like entertainment, where kiddos might be
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going to museums or theme parks, feeling overstimulated, and then having that
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quiet space to come and re-center and regroup the senses in
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a way that's incorporating technology into those spaces as well.
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So I would really like to see it kind of grow and
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expand and get into other areas in addition to the therapy.
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Oh, that's cool.
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I know some schools have like a sensory room where kids can
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take that sensory break.
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So this could be a form of that, doing maybe a mindfulness
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module to calm down while you're in your sensory break.
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Yep, exactly.
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Okay, I like that.
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So tell me about the actual starting of this kind of from
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that entrepreneur lens.
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Like you had the idea, it sounds like, but what was the
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story?
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Like how did that actually get started?
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We started with building three modules first.
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We're like, let's just build these.
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Let's see if anybody's even interested in this.
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Maybe the kids will hate it.
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They didn't.
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Was this you or did you have someone that you've partnered with
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for the technical piece?
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I'm only asking because most of us therapists are not highly technical
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people.
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Sure, sure.
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Yeah.
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We have another VCBA at my first company whose boyfriend at the
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time, now husband, you know, was like, hey, I could do the
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technical piece.
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Oh, okay.
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I have since learned in the past two years though.
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So now I can do some simple block coding.
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You know, I'm not going to say like I can code because
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it's not, it's not like the typing.
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It's certainly a plug and play sort of thing.
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So we got it started and the kids absolutely loved it.
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And they're like, well, when are the next modules coming out?
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We're like, it's incredibly expensive to develop.
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So unless we can get someone to fund us, which we did
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through Ben Franklin Technology Partners up here in Pennsylvania to get us
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off the ground.
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So we pitched the idea to them.
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They loved it.
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They were able to fund us our first investment so that we
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were able to build out the product over the past year.
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So a year ago, we only had three working modules.
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So now we have over 160.
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So we've really spent the past year developing the product and getting
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it out there.
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I'll say.
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Yeah, yeah.
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A lot of sleepless nights.
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So I was going to ask the toll of that.
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What has that journey been like for you personally?
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Is this all you do is work on this all the time?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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So yeah, it takes a lot of sacrifice.
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It takes time away.
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So you know, when the kiddos go down, I'm on the computer
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writing more scripts.
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So I write all the clinical material, of course.
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Then I have some programmers that go ahead and translate it into
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what you see here in the VR setting.
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But you know, I do a lot of the voice acting when
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I'm not sick.
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And I do a lot of different things.
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So it's been a really neat creative journey to take what I've
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learned in years of experience with therapy and what's worked with clients
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over the years, and just really translating a lot of the skills
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that, you know, whether I developed myself through trial and error, like
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we all do to simple scripts that we've used.
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So it's been a really hard journey, but it's been worth it
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to get it out there.
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Yeah.
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And so are there a lot of different therapists using this at
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this point?
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How are you sort of getting that word out?
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And how do people come to you and start to integrate this
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in their work?
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We go to a lot of the trade shows, for lack of
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a better term, but essentially the counseling expos and the autism ones
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and places like that.
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So we're trying to get a foothold of getting out there by
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seeing people, meeting people.
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We tried some, you know, different cold emailing strategies that just didn't
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work.
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It really is a face-to-face experience to see us and
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to see what we can offer and know, like, hey, we just
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built this really great resource.
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We're here for you.
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If it's a fit, that's great.
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If not, no problem.
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So we're getting the word out by, of course, calling connections that
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I already have in Warm Leeds and places like that.
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We just closed Penn State Health, who's going to be coming on
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board and integrating it into their hospital system.
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We're starting to get some pretty decent traction.
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We do have plenty of therapists.
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We have everyone from solo practitioners to Penn State Health, of course,
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is the biggest provider that we have at this time.
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Fantastic.
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And so it sounds like it's a pretty small team still.
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You're doing a lot with a small team.
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Yes.
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Do you still provide therapy or have you pretty much just been
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working on this project?
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Oh, I've stopped therapy and I think end of 2021, even my
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other business, it became too big to also wear the therapist hat
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and run the company.
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So the other company is quite large where it's good and bad
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because it's got a lot of great systems in place where we've
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got wonderful people running it.
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So I split my time between both.
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Yeah.
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Do you find that it was a learning curve to go from
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those clinical skills to sort of more than running a business skills?
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Oh, yeah, very much so.
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The nice thing about being a therapist and an entrepreneur is we
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have a lot of the soft skills, so we know how to
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navigate a lot of these challenging things that come up in business.
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It's just remembering, oh, wait, I do have these skills.
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I just need to transfer them to a different area.
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Yes, but some of the number skills and system skills maybe aren't
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so natural sometimes for therapists.
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I think it takes a certain individual.
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I love that you called yourself a serial entrepreneur.
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So that leads me to the question of what's next for you?
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Oh, I don't know.
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That's not on the vision board yet.
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We're just going to stay right here right now.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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You know, we incorporated this company in the beginning of 2023.
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So it's still pretty new.
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It's very new.
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So planning to just sit in this for a while and not
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chase any other dragons that come along my way and stay really,
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really laser focused on these 2 companies and growing them to their
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fullest potential.
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That's fantastic.
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That's amazing.
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I love it.
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What do you think in terms of the mental health space?
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I mean, we've talked about there is a mental health crisis.
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There's a need for more services.
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Accessibility is an issue.
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I'm just curious, tapping into from your different companies, like what do
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you think are some of the major themes or barriers or concerns
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out there that we need to address for mental health treatment for
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entrepreneurs and mental health right now?
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Yeah, that's certainly something that keeps me up at night.
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I do think there is a massive crisis in our young people
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with the pandemic and coming out of that and trying to transition
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into adulthood where their formative years were very much disrupted.
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So I think that is leading to an increase of suicide and
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just a slew of, oh my goodness, how do I adult sort
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of issues that I was seeing?
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I think the election causes a lot of anxiety too.
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I was still practicing for the last one.
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It was during the pandemic, during the election.
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And that's all we talked about all day.
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And I think also being sure if we are therapists out there
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taking care of ourselves because that can be incredibly draining.
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So I see a lot of that.
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But again, I'm not practicing right now.
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So I can only kind of reiterate what I hear from supervisions
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and things like that.
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But I think the transition age is a big, big area of
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need right now.
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I agree.
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And just even from the business side of things, it's a tough
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business to be in if you take insurance because there are so
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many limitations there.
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And I guess that leads me to a question here.
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Is a session built any differently utilizing VR versus not?
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Oh, sure.
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That's a great question.
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We always just say, just use your normal CPT codes.
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Our customers have been reimbursed for using this.
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Of course, if you need to get approval from...
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If you're using Medicaid or Medicare, I would certainly reach out to
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an MCO to make sure that this would be acceptable.
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So going back to your systems thing, I'm meticulous at systems.
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That's probably my biggest strength.
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So I wrote this massive 400-page document that details every single
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module, every single intervention in it, how it's used, what the script
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is.
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I would dare any insurance company to question it.
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It is so robust.
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It's insane.
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But it has everything a therapist would need to show, hey, this
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is evidence-based, and this is why it was applicable for my
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client.
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Of course, they would have to answer that individualized material.
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Why was this applicable for your client?
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But I'm going to provide you all the material of what's going
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on inside that virtual component so that you can say, oh, yeah,
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that mindfulness.
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It doesn't just say mindfulness.
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It'll bullet point it and then give you like a three to
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five sentence description of that intervention.
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And there's maybe five to six, maybe even more per module that
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it specifies.
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I love that.
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I love your meticulousness.
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That is a great gift.
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Well, I think about if I was a therapist wanting to implement
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this for either myself or a team, I'm going to want it
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as seamless as possible.
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So that's where my head is.
20:56
It's like putting myself in my customer's shoes.
20:58
And how can I make this as user friendly, as easy to
21:01
use and as justified as possible?
21:04
Yeah, that's amazing.
21:05
Well, I'm really excited for the journey that you're on and to
21:08
see where you go next.
21:10
What is something that you would like to leave people with on
21:13
this podcast?
21:14
Maybe it's something that keeps you going.
21:16
Maybe it's an inspiration.
21:18
Could be about the entrepreneur journey.
21:20
It could be about the mental health.
21:21
What's something pressing for you that you think is important to pass
21:24
along?
21:25
Oh, I would definitely say find a village of peers.
21:28
And I don't mean other therapists.
21:30
I mean other business owners that can help you because it becomes
21:33
very lonely once you reach this level because you can no longer
21:37
turn to your therapist colleagues and disclose information.
21:40
So find people that will have your back and help you get
21:44
through just the challenges.
21:47
They can be very stressful.
21:48
I love that.
21:49
We all need a village.
21:50
Yeah.
21:52
Well, Crin, if people want to find out more about you, you
21:55
can look in the show notes, anyone listening.
21:57
There's great information about Crin and all her programs and a way
22:00
to contact her.
22:01
And I just want to thank you for being here today.
22:03
So thanks for taking the time.
22:05
Thanks for trying something new and going out there and creating this
22:08
beautiful thing.
22:10
Yeah, thank you for having me.
22:11
You bet.
22:12
Thanks for listening to the Mental Health Evolution podcast.
22:16
Join the conversation.
22:17
Find us on socials.
22:19
Send us your thoughts and tell us what you're seeing in your
22:22
corner of the mental health world.
22:23
Until next time, stay curious and keep evolving.