Latest / Millennial Mustard Seed / S6 201. Days of Noah Roundtable Pt 1 - The Fully Functioning Body of Christ

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S6 201. Days of Noah Roundtable Pt 1 - The Fully Functioning Body of Christ · Millennial Mustard Seed

0:01
Hello folks, this is Princess. You are listening to the
0:04
Millennial Mustard. Seed Podcast, thanks for
0:07
listening. Don't forget to share with your
0:09
friends. That's tough.
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We're in a very tough spot. I think that what we're doing
0:15
right now is a great benefit and virtue because.
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It's an end. Around between this whole
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corrupt informational system, media system, we claim to
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believe in a God who spoke the universe into existence and
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literally raised himself from the dead.
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And yet we're not going to believe that anything else
0:35
exists in the spirit realm, even though His word tells us that
0:38
they do. Their bodies weren't permitted
0:41
to go to sleep like humans do, and they weren't permitted to go
0:45
to heaven, so they wander the earth.
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You know, I've seen the eyes turn black to unknown tongues
0:52
being spoken. These Giants would love way up
0:56
in the Highland. The young Braves, the young men
0:59
would might have been the trees. They wait for one of these 12
1:02
footers to come. Walking down the bath and.
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They would jump on them and kill them, drag them back to the
1:07
village, and the village would feast on the body.
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Then people start to get weapons, they start to get
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armor, they start to build cities, they start to fortify
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their cities. Now God looks down and there's
1:22
violence everywhere. The battle, this war that we are
1:26
at, is not against each other, it's against these
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principalities and these rulers and these archons in the high
1:31
places. It's really worthwhile to read
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the Bible yourself. Fear is one of the primary
1:37
drivers of mind control because we have to take every thought
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captive and resist fear. You're going to have a testimony
1:49
that is a justice case against the Kingdom of darkness.
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The. Welcome to the Days of Noah
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podcast, where we talk all things biblical, supernatural,
2:28
and strange. Luke and I are joined today by
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Rod Smith from the Millennial Mustard Seed podcast, a frequent
2:37
collaborator and contributor to the show and friend personally
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and of the show. As we discuss kind of a pickup
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from the Deconstructing Pagan Christianity episode that we had
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a while back. And as we kind of contrast that
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with what God's body, the body of Christ, his ruling counsel,
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the Aklasea, how are we meant to function and what should our
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church gatherings be like? You know, it's often been said
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the enemy of the best is the good.
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And while there is so much good that modern Christianity in how
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it typically functions in our meetings, in our services that
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we have each weekend, that there is a lot of good that is being
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accomplished. But we are not reaching our full
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potential as God prescribed in His Word and how the early
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church met and how they function with every member functioning
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and participating. And so that's the discussion we
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are picking up from last time, coming from that, deconstructing
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Pagan Christianity and reconstructing this idea of an
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organic, every member functioning church with the soul
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leader being Christ himself. And then expressing that
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leadership as we come together with the Holy Spirit, making
4:06
that invisible visible. Guys, thanks so much for being
4:11
out there listening. We do appreciate each and
4:13
everyone of you. Please make sure if you enjoy
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these episodes and you want to support our work, to share them
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with your family and friends and coworkers, to leave a positive
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review on your favorite podcast platform.
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And if you'd like to support us beyond that, you can certainly
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choose a support link to donate in the show notes.
4:36
So with that, let's get started talking with Rod Smith in this
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round table on how do we become a fully functioning ekklesia,
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Christ's body here on earth. Welcome back everybody to
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another Days of Noah podcast. My brother Luke with me as
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always. And we have Rod Smith from the
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Millennial Mustard Seed. Hey, Rod.
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Glad to be here with you guys. Good to have you.
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Yeah. And we were going to have Rick
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Copeland with us today again. He was with us on episode 83
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where we did an episode talking about Frank Viola's book, Pagan
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Christianity and kind of deconstructing how it is that
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we, that we do our church meetings, right?
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Why, why do we meet the way we do?
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And, and have the sermon and the, and the, the pastor or the
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one man leading and, and the church building and all of these
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things that we have basically added over the years since the,
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the church age started. And so this conversation Rick
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wasn't able to join us with, but but Rod was, and we are going to
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try to pick up where we left off and continue deconstructing, but
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also reconstructing as we try to sort of juxtapose the good
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versus the best, right? That there's this idea that in
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the institutional church, a lot of good happens and a lot of
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good people and, and godly people, people with hearts open
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to the Lord wanting to do his will, wanting to grow and, and
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reach others with his, his love and his truth.
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And at the same time, you know, going through again, Frank
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Viola's material from Pagan Christianity, he wrote books
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like Reimagining Church, which I'll quote from later, and
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finding organic church and what it is to meet as a body of
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believers without a human head. Now, you might have someone who
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has a lot of biblical training, maybe they've been trained in a
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seminary or they have been a counselor, all sorts of
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different Christian ministries. But to be on equal footing and
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have an open, participatory meeting where everyone is free
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to exercise their gifts. And we don't have, you know, the
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few leading the many. It's kind of what we're going to
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talk about what the what the differences are between
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institutional and organic church.
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And a lot of the drawbacks with having this pastoral role, for
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example, that we don't see in the Bible the way it is today.
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We do not see that that office. We see the word, we see
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descriptions of it and how the institutional church is,
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although again, disclaimer, doing a lot of good, a lot of
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blessing that that God gives us in the institutional model.
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But at the same time, the difference between the approval
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of God and the blessing of God. And I think that's kind of what
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we're going to hopefully unpack. So a couple of references in in
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the Bible that I think are helpful, Hebrews 511 through 14,
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and it says we have much to say about this, but it's hard to
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make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.
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In fact, though, by this time you ought to be teachers.
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You need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's
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Word all over again. You need milk, not solid food.
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Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not
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acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
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And I think some versions say unskilled in righteousness, but
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solid food is for the mature who by constant use have trained
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themselves to distinguish good from evil.
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And I think one of the interesting things about kind of
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reading that, you know, each day we learn a little more, right?
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And Luke and I had Kevin Thompson from the Beyond the
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Fundamentals channel on for a recording, and that episode's
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going to release in a few weeks. But he really kind of opened my
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eyes to understanding how do we, how do we come about
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assimilating the doctrines of our faith and how statements of
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faith can be damaging? Because we tend to boil down
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ideas into this sentence or two and we forget the process of
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what it took to learn those things and how that statement of
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faith can sometimes be, it doesn't capture it, right?
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It doesn't capture the, the, the full essence of knowing, of
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really knowing that. And and I think these verses
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really speak to that having that discernment, right, that in the
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institutional church versus organic, the discernment, we
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kind of rely on the pastor upfront to do the homework.
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Now we're supposed to be good Bereans and look things up,
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right? But essentially we're paying him
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to teach us while a lot of us are tend to be passive and and
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it kind of creates that construct.
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Yeah, I would agree. That's that's pretty much how it
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is in most churches. Makes me think of Apostle Paul.
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You know, he traveled from town to town meeting with believers
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and he commended one particular church in one of his epistles
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that they didn't just believe every word that he he brought.
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They studied and, you know, confirmed and critiqued and all
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that type of stuff. You know, they whether Paul was
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bringing the truth, so he really commended their effort,
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additional effort in and, you know, rightly dividing the word
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in truth, you know, and and handling it with with
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discernment, with with effort of let me double check this.
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You know, instead of being so passive that everything that
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comes from the the leader is is gospel, which I mean, we
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probably could go that down that rabbit hole.
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You know how many cults have been created and destroyed lives
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just because they go blindly the direction of the leader?
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Absolutely, yeah. And and that's one thing without
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without even really saying it, because Kevin Thompson, for
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example, was not really familiar.
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I mentioned this to to him after that I I watched that video of
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his that I sent you guys and I sent him an e-mail and I said
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have you heard of Frank Viola and Pagan Christianity?
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He had not, but he was stumbling across the same things in that
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video I sent you about discernment.
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And he literally said the words, if we did this, and we're going
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to read this here in a moment in Ephesians 4 Rod, if you want to
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pull that up, it's Ephesians 411 through 16, I believe.
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And he literally said these words.
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He's like, if we did this as as a body of believers, as a church
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gathering, it would literally be cult proof.
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And and that's because it's self correcting, right?
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You know, I, I think a lot of people, they have a stigma for
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if you say you meet as a house church or a home church or you
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don't have a pastor, you don't have elders.
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They had, they kind of get freaked out and they're like,
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like Luke was saying, you know, the, the tendency to a cult and
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the beauty of meeting, as Frank Vale has uncovered in organic
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church in the New Testament without a human head, with
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Christ as your functional head, is that it's self correcting.
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You know, if Rod and Luke and I were having a, a church meeting
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together and Rod brought some crazy doctrine or I bought
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brought some crazy doctrine or some interpretation of the word
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that was off the wall, Rod and Luke are going to correct me.
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You know, and, and they're certainly not going to follow me
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because I'm not the leader. I'm not the one saying, hey,
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I've got the answers. I put in the 20 hours to make
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this sermon. Yeah, so Ephesians 411 through
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13 in the ESV it reads. And he gave the apostles, the
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prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and the teachers to
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equip the Saints for the work of ministry, for building up the
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body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of faith and
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of the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood to the
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measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
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You know, I also just want to go on to read Romans 12/4 through 5
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quick for as in one body we have many members and the members do
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not all have the same function. So we though many are one body
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in Christ and individually members one of another.
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And you didn't just understanding that the
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subscription that God has given us in the word is not what we
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see as like the you know how you go to some churches and they
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have like these foundational statements.
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You know, even if you look at Islam, they have 5 pillars,
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right? Like there's always religions
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have like these foundational statements like this is what our
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doctrine is. This is what you can expect
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being in the forefronts of our mind as you attend regularly,
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but the building doesn't do justice to the calling of verses
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like this that the Spirit is searching out in as a deeper
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revelation. What does this mean?
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What are we talking about here? We're all individually members,
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one of the not the each other. I mean just like micro
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chimericism, like what are we doing right?
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I mean we really start to think about it.
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It blows my mind that God is using broken vessels and just on
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like the totally unworthy. There's I bring nothing to the
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table. I'm just some guy with a little
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mustard seed size of faith, maybe half this half a mustard
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seed to be honest with you, just enough.
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And I go and I read in the word and then I go with this like
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heart to say where where's that taking place?
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Where's that active? And I don't think it's a big
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deal for anybody in the body. And hopefully we cause the chain
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reaction, you guys to get people to start asking, well, what
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really should our function look like?
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What, what does the ultimate authority have to say about it?
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That's just kind of my response at this point in time where my
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heart rests on this issue at hand.
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If you pick up in verse 14, do you still have that in front of
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you with Ephesians 414 through 16?
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Oh yeah, 14 Then we no longer be immature like children.
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We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new
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teaching, and we will not be influenced when people try to
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trick us with lies so clever that they sound like the truth.
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Instead, we will speak the truth and love growing in every way
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more and more like Christ, who was the head of His body, the
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Church. So, so that last part, I, I, I'm
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assuming that's what he's referencing, that you would have
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a, a, a level of maturity in the body, an organization that would
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see the red flags essentially, right?
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Yes. Is that what you what you
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gathered? I I think so.
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I think so. And and this was what was so
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fascinating as I, I listen to to Kevin's video again and I'm
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mentioning it a few times here. I should put it in the
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description of this recording is, is he's like, I don't know
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if he said I, I don't know if I've ever heard anyone ever
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preach on this. In verse 13, it says until until
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we reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of
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God and become mature. And I was saying to you guys off
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air a little bit ago, if you stop there at at the end of
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verse 13, you might go, Oh, OK, that's our glorified state.
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That's that's our full maturity in the next life.
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But then you keep reading like Rod, you just read.
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We will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by waves,
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blown by every wind of teaching and doctrine.
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It's like, Oh no, this maturity Paul Speaking of is meant for
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this life. And to your point, rod, it does
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blow your mind when you think about how God uses this, these
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cracked clay pots that we are. I mean, if we are a body and we
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have got diseases all over our knuckles are broke or you know,
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our thumb is busted. It's on us to reach out to God
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and go we need help. But that's his body that he
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let's get beat up. He let's doctrines get messed up
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because he wants us to self correct.
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He wants us to go back to his word and go where did we get
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this wrong? Right, but we have to see those
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errors. Yeah, and especially like that
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love is the consistent fabric all the way through, regardless
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of doctrine, regardless of your current practice, even as also
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and listeners tuning in, you know.
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And So what love will end up doing is bringing us back to the
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principle of the Father's heart, who we are.
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Why are we loved? What's the qualification, right?
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Why are we here? What's the qualification?
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We're loved. Why am I loved, right.
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So when we go on that journey, which I believe all of us, all
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of us have been on, and I think this is even the kind of
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climaxing into a a level of maturity.
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We've each been given a measure of faith, the Bible says, and
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when we understand this dynamic of the agape love of God, just
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unconditional, it's not conditional like our love.
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And then we the course correct becomes so much easier when he's
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the focus because of what he's bestowing upon us, right?
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It becomes less about, well, look how well I'm doing it,
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right? I have a big building and I have
20:00
all this funding. And so we must be doing
20:02
something right. And it's like, if that's the
20:05
motive, if that's the core. Or the heart posture of an
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organization. You have rejected love.
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It's been thrown to the wayside. And so that's why I think like
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I'm hearing you talk about this autocorrection.
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I'm familiar with Frank Viola minutely.
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But I know that I have the Holy Spirit and then I hear things
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and I'm like, that's right. That's right on the money or
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hold on. We need to go deeper because if
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the implement has to be consistent through the framework
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of love, even though righteous anger might have been stirred
20:38
up. I'm not insinuating through
20:39
something you said recently, but I'm just throwing out things
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that I, I wrestle through a lot of complex things with the Holy
20:45
Spirit all the time. How do I go about this?
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Is this right? Is this wrong?
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So. That's what Kevin often calls
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separating the signal from the noise, right?
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Like, maybe, like, maybe Rod didn't say it quite right.
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And I rephrase it and he's like, yeah, that's what I was
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thinking. That's what I was feeling, but I
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didn't have the words, you know? But you have the point here.
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Rod, when you brought up kind of this love and leading us,
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obviously Jesus laid it out very plain.
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What was the number one commandment?
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Right to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind
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and strength. So that effort is meeting a
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commandment. It's following his lead.
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And then let's go back to the Old Testament, the people of, of
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God, the, the, the Hebrew Israelites, they were meant to
21:36
love God and meant to follow God without a king.
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He was supposed to be the king, but they requested a king and
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God ended up giving them what they wanted, ended up being, you
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know, a thorn in their side. But I think he nailed it right
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on the head. If we're doing the I love the
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Lord with all my heart so minded strength, he is the head.
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We're being led by his spirit into all truth, into the
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direction of things that we're supposed to be doing.
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And what's the next commandment? Love thy neighbor, as I say,
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self, right? You're, you're you're loving
22:13
people, so you're loving God. And then he's the source of
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love. Now you're affecting your
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community. Now you're affecting your
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neighbors. And yeah, it does, you know, So
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I guess kind of bring it back to what we're discussing.
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I'd like to maybe shift, Pete, the discussion towards kind of
22:35
what I just described, but leak it to the New Testament where
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Paul's talking about the the fivefold ministry, the apostle,
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the evangelist to pass through, the prophet, the teacher.
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So how do those offices or those giftings?
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And remember, that's for the equipment quipping of the
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Saints, the equipping of the body.
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So, so individuals might have those unique giftings, but yet
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Christ is still the head. We're following his lead and
23:04
we're sharpening one another. So kind of how, how do you kind
23:09
of see that working? Right.
23:14
Well, I mean, I can't say from personal experience, even
23:18
though, you know, my family and I have been in doing home church
23:22
without a pastor for about a year and a half.
23:25
I think, Rod, you said you're on two or three years now of
23:28
something like that, right? You might be able to speak to
23:30
this. I can't say that.
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Oh, yeah. We just identified an apostle
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last week. And you know, I, I can't really
23:38
say that those giftings have manifested themselves.
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I think as we go along, they will as the group grows and
23:48
changes, they will as the direction that God has for our
23:54
group is different from the one next door as he leads the people
23:59
he needs for the tasks that he has.
24:02
That is different than the next house church, right?
24:05
So, and it's in the season that he has us into which it might be
24:10
a, an edifying or, or encouraging season.
24:13
Then later it might be an evangelism a season.
24:16
So I see those, those five giftings and and to clarify that
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they aren't offices necessarily. They are functions that they are
24:27
not a hierarchy, nor are they a reserved for clergy.
24:33
And that's something we'll we'll kind of get into is, is kind of
24:36
the damage of the having a clergy laity divide something we
24:39
talked a lot about on episode 83 and and the the the limiting
24:45
factor of the institutional church model versus organic.
24:49
But I, I see those things functioning freely where someone
24:55
who maybe doesn't have the degree, maybe hasn't gone to
25:00
seminary, but he has some some level of discernment through his
25:04
obedience to God or just his personality, how God wired his
25:07
brain. He can pick out things that, you
25:11
know, the pastor doing his 20 hours of work on his sermon
25:15
didn't notice none of the commentaries that he read on
25:18
the, on the verses that he's studying noticed.
25:21
And, and in a organic church, you have the opportunity for
25:26
that person to speak up and go, Oh, I have something to add to
25:31
that. I have something that I want to
25:33
ask you about on that and to do that and just imagine now, Luke,
25:38
I know you said in in church experiences that you had
25:42
institutional church experiences.
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You've been in those services where people have the
25:47
opportunity to give a fresh word from the Lord.
25:50
And that's, that's so refreshing to have that.
25:53
That's not the norm, I would say, right in most churches.
25:56
If you want to raise your hand and go, hold on pastor, I know
26:01
you're about to get the point number through #2 out of three.
26:04
I have something to mention on that.
26:07
He might talk to you after the service and go, can you just
26:10
save that? Maybe not interrupt me in the
26:12
middle of everything. So we have this structure of how
26:15
our church service goes that is very limiting.
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I also think you, you think about, think about the way that,
26:26
that a polished speaker delivers a polished prepared sermon.
26:32
There's a certain way of, of authority and inflection.
26:36
You know, Paul said, I didn't come to you speaking with how
26:39
did he put it, you know, fancy words and, and great skills.
26:46
I, I have a feeling I'm, I'm not much of A John MacArthur fan.
26:50
I like some of his stuff, but whatever.
26:52
I disagree vehemently on others. But if he were to sit down in
26:57
our church group tomorrow amongst a dozen other people
27:04
and, and we were just, we were to say, hey, John, what have you
27:07
been studying this week? Where's what's God leading you?
27:10
I have a feeling he would speak to me person to person like
27:14
we're talking right now right across the couch from one
27:18
another. And, and it wouldn't come out
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even if it was a prepared message.
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I, I don't think it would come out the same way.
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And I think we, we lose something.
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And I'll just wrap up with this and let you guys jump back in.
27:34
When I look at that Ephesians 4 section and, and what you, I
27:40
think you mentioned Rod having no longer need of teachers, not
27:44
not needing any man to teach us. Think of iron, sharpening iron,
27:48
right? That's reciprocal.
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That's both ways. That's not here's the sharpener
27:58
and here's 100 knives that need sharpening.
28:01
You knives go sit in the Pew. I'm the sharpener.
28:04
Let me sharpen you. Come back next week, we'll do it
28:07
again. We're supposed to be sharpening
28:10
each other. We're supposed to be exercising
28:12
our gifts and learning what our gifts are.
28:16
And if we're passive and we're sitting in that those seats,
28:19
we're not going. We're not able to do that.
28:21
You know, Luke, you had mentioned, you know, kind of
28:25
going over the gifts a little bit inexperienced versus what
28:28
the building looks like. And what I think is really
28:31
interesting about like this overarching model.
28:35
It's the standard God is giving us.
28:38
This is the model that encourages a holistic approach,
28:42
organic, it's vibrant, it's undefiled because it's in God's
28:46
Word about these five goals, these 5 roles in the church, the
28:52
apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher.
28:55
They serve this unique vital function, working together in
29:01
tandem for the entire body. It's to equip and build up the
29:06
Saints, as it says. And it's interesting because in
29:13
the home church experience that I've been having, which is from
29:17
house to house within like 2 1/2 three hour radius of where I
29:22
live. So we have people coming from
29:24
New York, from Virginia. I mean, we've had, I think the
29:26
furthest people we've had travel is about 10 hours.
29:30
And we've packed out houses. You know, there's people in like
29:33
in the mud room to the front porch, like just looking in.
29:38
There's no more room. It's fascinating to me because
29:44
it's just for prayer. So what I what I've been doing
29:47
is just a prayer meeting and I'm not the head of it.
29:50
I'm not running it. I don't schedule it.
29:54
I'm working with Klaus and Stacy.
29:56
Klaus Chavis is like like a brother.
29:59
For those of people out there who know who Marcus Rogers is,
30:02
for example, he's a pretty big influencer in the Christian
30:06
space through music and through just bold, unapologetic
30:12
teaching, if you will. And what we do is different.
30:18
And I've had so, so many comments from people as they
30:21
find out what's going on. I I want to come and join that
30:25
Like we have another brother coming from the Carolinas next
30:28
week coming up just to be like, I just want to have prayer with
30:33
you guys. Like I just want that anointing
30:35
and that power. And it's so interesting to me
30:37
that we didn't come in to this home church with roles.
30:42
Like no one ever showed up and said, I'm apostle Rod, we're
30:47
like, I'm prophet Dave. You know, no, it's just now we
30:51
just got together. But, you know, organically, we
30:55
started to notice these predominant, you know, features
31:02
within the body as we were working together.
31:06
It wasn't some lone wolf out there claiming to be a prophet
31:10
and then he came and just blew us all away.
31:12
No, a lot of this was harnessed and the humility of sitting
31:16
together in the physical form, wrestling through this stuff,
31:20
crying together, laughing together, but all based on
31:23
prayer. So we're not teaching Bible
31:24
together. We're not, we're, I'm doing all
31:27
that in my own time. I'm leading the whole group of
31:29
men in my own time. You know, like when I'm coming
31:32
to the House of Lord, like David, he says I'm going to go
31:36
to the House of the Lord and make a shout.
31:38
He's insinuating there's a corporate gathering that was
31:42
taking place. And he had he might have been
31:44
absent for a minute. And I look at that as what this
31:47
ekklesia or this gathering of people coming from from multiple
31:51
states into Pennsylvania, from house to house, just to pray we
31:56
tell people have no expectation. We're not putting on a show for
31:59
you. This is not the Rod or Klaus or
32:01
entertainment show. None of that.
32:03
Leave all your expectations at the door.
32:05
We've seen all different types of stuff happen.
32:08
But I guess my point here is organically, naturally, we've
32:15
seen the birth of people taking on a role that that already fit
32:20
into their personality almost, you know what I mean?
32:23
Like like an apostle, that's somebody who's sent you ever
32:27
know the guy who's just springing out of his shoes to be
32:29
sent somewhere to deliver the message or you know, he's just
32:32
like, I'll go, right? It's just that characteristic.
32:35
God creates everything sense of humor, complex things, all of
32:40
it, everything in the the heavens and the earth.
32:42
He's restoring unto himself. Why would we not for a second
32:45
draw back and go am I witnessing a a fresh breath of the ruach
32:54
coming into people that have been broken a contrite because
32:59
we couldn't get these answers in a building.
33:01
We beat our heads against the wall with frustrations of the
33:05
complexities, the deception and we just were like, we're sick of
33:09
it. I don't want no politics.
33:11
You know, all of us were on board right from the gate almost
33:13
three years ago. I just we don't want no
33:15
politics. It's just no nonsense to show
33:18
up, man. If you're limping, I'll meet you
33:19
at the door and and I'm your crutch till we get to the couch
33:23
and that's all that's all we're doing.
33:25
There's no it's, it's so mind boggling to me to see how far
33:29
this has rippled out. And I'm not alone.
33:33
You know, there's other groups of people that are experiencing
33:35
this with with with other body members.
33:39
But I think the last thing I'll highlight before I pass it back
33:41
to one of you is how the body is is fitting together.
33:49
I, I, if I do my role really well, but nobody else is
33:55
activated by either through the laying on of hands or having
33:59
that atmosphere of, of God's prescribed standard of a church,
34:04
a body. It, it, it harms me even if I
34:08
act well if I work in my gift. Well, other than being a
34:11
watchman. If you're a watchman, you're
34:13
washing blood off your hands for warning.
34:15
But, but what I'm saying is like this one man standing up and
34:18
everybody else sitting down. That's so harmful.
34:21
It's actually in the long game harmful to the one man standing
34:25
up on the stage above everybody else.
34:27
He just doesn't see it yet because it's not God's
34:31
prescribed remedy. It's not the structure, the
34:35
framework of God when we're all on a personal, individual, but
34:39
yet corporate level, aware of each other, moving, kind of like
34:44
massaging the environment with the vitality of the Spirit,
34:49
right? Like where I see you, I know who
34:51
you are, I'm here for the right reason, I'm locking arms with
34:54
you. When we all do that on a micro
34:58
scale, personal level, the whole thing flourishes and nobody
35:02
stands up and says I'm the pastor, I'm the prophet.
35:05
No, just a word comes forth and after a while people start to
35:09
identify that man is possibly a prophetic office.
35:12
Some people will say he's a prophet, but he'll never say it
35:15
of himself according to the word of God.
35:19
And this is where I'm minutely getting into this.
35:23
It has not been constructed or figured out at all.
35:27
I'm witnessing stuff that I have trouble put in language to at
35:30
times because I'm feeling it and I'm watching and I'm going.
35:35
It's strange and I'm obsessed with it.
35:38
At the same time, the obsession is coming because there's been
35:40
absent everywhere else. It's strange to me because a lot
35:44
of it is unlearning the things that I observed.
35:49
But I I have a childlike faith where I'm just in it.
35:52
Like here we are. Rod, what what you're describing
35:55
is in Reimagining Church, Frankville talks about one of he
36:03
highlights a particular church meeting that really embodied
36:08
what it's capable of, where nothing planned and nothing
36:14
against planning. If you say, Hey, next week I
36:16
want to sing a song or you know, that's fine, but just
36:19
spontaneously, person after person doing a song or or
36:25
reading something or having some something edifying to share or a
36:29
prayer. You know, in in scripture,
36:32
right, we see that everyone brings a song.
36:34
Everyone brings a right, that whole section.
36:37
We didn't look at that up, but everyone bringing something and
36:42
you're seeing that and you're seeing it's you didn't craft it
36:47
top down. You simply were the body
36:50
gathering together and like the analogy that I've given in, in
36:55
past episodes of in the Temple of Doom, Doom, Indiana Jones,
37:00
right when those 3 stones were put together, they glowed.
37:04
When they were separated, the fire went out.
37:07
And I feel like it's that when we get together as believers,
37:11
we're like coals. You know, if you've ever had a,
37:14
a charcoal grill going, right, you separate those coals, they
37:18
get, they get dim, you put them together and you can see that
37:20
fire you, you were seeing that baked into the DNA.
37:28
Those giftings come out. It's in our DNA as the body of
37:34
Christ. And if I can just say it this
37:37
way, I don't know if I wrote this statement or if this was a
37:39
note I got from Frank's book when I was listening to it, but
37:44
we who are the body of Christ have a mandate to express it in
37:48
a particular way, in a God approved way so as to make
37:54
Christ visible. So he's the head, we're the body
37:58
and we're supposed to express it.
38:00
And unfortunately in the institutional church and with a
38:05
the the role of the office of a pastor, it's never meant to be
38:09
a, an office that visible Christ is not visible how it's meant to
38:16
happen. Hey, Pete, I want to kind of
38:19
shift gears and it because I got a thought and I want, I want
38:22
your opinion on it because as two individuals, you and Rod
38:26
that have are practicing this out, you're living it out.
38:30
So let's take it from a standpoint of I'm a member of a
38:35
church, traditional church that has a traditional pastor as a as
38:41
a shepherd and let's say this organization Abundant Life
38:48
Church, OK. And we have 150 members,
38:51
including the pastor. We are wanting to deconstruct
38:55
what we traditionally do and do something different.
39:00
So how would you describe the the next step?
39:07
Are we going to show up? And it's just a round Robin of
39:14
it's not organized it, it's whoever has a, a word we're
39:19
going to share, whoever has a song, we're going to sing.
39:23
You know, how, how would you deconstruct the traditional 2-3
39:30
hours that I normally would come, sing some worship songs,
39:35
give an offering, listen to a message that encourages and
39:40
strengthens and all that. Now I'm doing something
39:44
different on a on a meeting. Right.
39:46
Where would you start? Yeah, No, that's an excellent
39:50
question. Well, I think the First off, you
39:54
can't do it in the, you can't nip around the edges.
39:58
You you can't just tweak it. No, we'll change the service
40:01
order. We'll do this and that.
40:03
You know, we'll rearrange the chairs.
40:05
The whole structure has to go the building itself.
40:11
Says how the meeting is supposed to go.
40:13
Most places have a stage. Most places have chairs facing a
40:17
certain direction that encourages the action is
40:20
happening here like an auditorium.
40:23
And you imagine if an alien came down and said, oh, what happens
40:26
here? Oh, it must be a theater.
40:28
There must be, you know, people sit here and watch this
40:31
performance. So that that has to change.
40:34
So instead of the pastor being on the platform, now this 150
40:40
member church with the pastor that has been in the pastor
40:43
role, now we're all on the level carpet.
40:48
And yeah, we did reorganize all the chairs and now we're looking
40:54
at one a number. We'll say it's in a circle.
40:56
OK, All right. Now what?
41:00
Yeah. So, OK, so I mean, I'm, I love
41:03
this question, but I mean, I'm not saying I have all the
41:06
answers. I'm just kind of.
41:08
Thinking out loud. I've never.
41:09
This is great. Francis Chan actually did this.
41:13
He left his mega church in California.
41:15
And if you want to read about it, it's he's got videos on it,
41:20
his book Letters to the Church. I think I read a long quote from
41:23
that last time we talked about this with Rick about, you know,
41:29
pastors in China who once once the church came out of
41:34
persecution and started doing church like we do in the West,
41:37
he couldn't motivate his people because they had grown passive.
41:42
So I think that church as a body, if you're talking 150
41:47
person, they, they have a building that they own or pay,
41:49
you know, mortgage to. They need to ask God, do we need
41:54
to sell this or do we keep meeting?
41:56
I think there's instances where God, like Rick said last time we
41:59
met, where it does make sense to have that $6 million building.
42:04
I think that's probably the exception, not the rule.
42:08
But if they, if this 150 or Christian group in this given
42:13
town still wants to meet together and this is the best,
42:17
let's say it's paid off and this is the best place where it could
42:22
fit everybody. We don't have to rent the Civic
42:25
Center down the streets or the rec center or whatever.
42:28
Let's just continue to meet here.
42:30
And but we're going to do church differently.
42:34
Yeah, again, that's, I think that's a case by case.
42:38
Ask the Lord's direction, wouldn't you say, Rod?
42:41
Yeah. I mean, you know, if we look at
42:43
the model of what's going on in the building, the Bible says
42:48
right here in Ephesians 220 stating that the church is built
42:53
on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets and
42:56
Jesus Christ himself is the cornerstone.
43:00
You know, we, I think we need to like get some hermeneutics,
43:02
right? So like apostles, what are their
43:04
role? They're seen as pioneers,
43:07
visionaries. They kind of go out, they're
43:08
being sent. Out.
43:10
Church and church planners. Yeah, they're breaking ground,
43:14
establishing a work for the Kingdom of God.
43:17
What are prophets doing? They're they have an ability to
43:20
hear and communicate the voice of God.
43:22
And and they're not just about like fortune telling, like I'm
43:25
going to tell you the future. No, we see over and over again
43:28
in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel playing crucial roles in leading
43:32
Israel and in guiding the people, you know, predicting or
43:38
speaking on behalf of things to come, just like the famine
43:41
that's talked about in Acts 11, the daughter of Philip who
43:44
prophesized in Acts 21, right? What are evangelists?
43:48
You know, you have a group of people that are passionate about
43:51
bringing the good news. The gospel means good news,
43:54
right? Shepherds or pastors.
43:57
What is the role of a shepherd or pastor?
43:59
It's caring for the sheep in preserving the Scriptures, like
44:04
like making the Scriptures alive in an intimate way with his
44:08
people. He's willing to lay down his
44:10
life or lose some sleepless nights or not join a local pool
44:15
league because he's actually very involved in his people,
44:21
right? He's willing to put things aside
44:22
and pursue the the health of his flock.
44:25
What are teachers? They have a special gift of
44:27
explaining and applying scriptures, specifically these
44:32
truth bomb scriptures that are easily overlooked through the
44:35
mundane reading that most of the world has been taught how to
44:40
handle the Bible. What is what is all this?
44:43
What are we doing? Like this is the foundation.
44:45
So what we're doing is finding out organically who's who.
44:49
But if you already have a building, I would say, and hey,
44:53
listen, this is dangerous because true colors will come
44:57
out. We're going to find out who's in
44:58
it for the real reason and who's not.
45:00
When you start to change some stuff around you, you find out
45:03
real quick, is there a religious spirit here or is there freedom
45:06
here? But in my opinion, to
45:08
deconstruct a building would be to utilize the building for what
45:12
the Bible says is genuine to the heart of God's people.
45:16
So I would say it is a corporate center or headquarters.
45:21
I would call it HQ. This is headquarters.
45:24
We, we, we dispersed out of here.
45:27
We meet here, we plan here, right?
45:29
We do food here, I mean. Rod, in your situation, you said
45:32
you were busting at the seams. So a lot, a lot of local
45:36
churches, even if they did it the traditional way, started in
45:39
a home and outgrew their house. And now let's go meet at this
45:46
place. Yeah.
45:46
But what's going on there is that you had a constant
45:50
continual meeting of home fellowship and then you had what
45:54
was the corporate gathering where all these little home
45:57
churches were coming together once a quarter, once a month,
46:00
once a week, as many times as you would like.
46:03
So that's the reversals right Now we have a building and in
46:07
some cases is paid off. Well, then utilize it, but
46:09
utilize it through the structure is what the Scriptures are
46:12
giving us, right? Which means that's not the main
46:15
party, if you will. Exactly then, and that's no
46:18
excellent answer and good question and excellent and
46:22
excellent question, Luke, because, yeah, if we look at the
46:25
New Testament gatherings, they already had these temples.
46:29
They were already there from Judaism, right?
46:33
It wasn't until Constantine, 300 years later that, hey, let's
46:36
start commissioning buildings for these gatherings.
46:40
So really what we have when we think about a traditional pastor
46:43
as an office is we have a holdover from the Old Covenant
46:48
priest and we have a tradition from the Catholic Church.
46:54
When Luther and others reformed 500 years ago, they did not take
47:02
down the system that they needed to take down.
47:06
They, they are, in my opinion, Catholic light.
47:09
They only nipped her on the edges, right?
47:12
The, the, the atrocities, that's not the right word.
47:17
The, the egregious things that were going on in Catholicism
47:22
were so bad. You know, anyone could have seen
47:27
it. I mean, I'm, I'm giving Luther
47:28
credit, but yes, anyone could have seen it if they had their
47:31
Bible. No, they didn't have their
47:32
Bible. That was part of what Luther
47:34
did. But they were so outlandish,
47:37
right? But unfortunately in products
47:44
Protestantism, we give lip service to this idea that we are
47:49
the priesthood of believers, but we don't function like it.
47:53
We function like this is the guy with the training.
47:56
I'm going to pay him. I'm going to pay him to give me
48:00
a fish every week instead of teaching me to fish.
48:05
And we, we've basically subsidized our discerning as
48:12
Kevin Thompson would call it, our sense making.
48:14
We have outsourced our sense making to someone else instead
48:18
of doing it ourselves so well. What if what if what if the This
48:24
is a healthy Church of 150. The majority of the body has
48:30
full time professions and I have even I got an excellent book on
48:35
my shelf, Thou Shalt Prosper by a rabbi.
48:39
And he did not want to take a salary as a leader of his
48:44
congregation. He continued to to work while he
48:49
studied and LED LED his organization.
48:52
So I'm not saying every pastor has to do that and no longer
48:57
take a salary, but if if they are, I don't know, you got some
49:04
individuals that are so sold out in to Christ that they want to
49:09
do it full time. You know, you look at
49:12
missionaries, you look at and they can't raise a family, put
49:17
food on the table and 100% do the work of God.
49:22
And do you know a nine to five they need support from from
49:28
others in order to fulfill. Yes.
49:32
And and I think that's what we that's what we see with Paul,
49:34
although he he waived that right.
49:37
He had the right to do that because he was a traveling
49:40
itinerant worker of of God. But if you're not traveling all
49:44
the time like you're describing Luke, then yeah, let's go back
49:48
to your example. I think the 150 person should
49:51
say, do we really need to meet as a a corporate body in this
49:57
large capacity every week or do we do it once in a while?
50:01
Do we divide up in groups? And to your point, Luke, about
50:06
well, what do you do when you outgrow it?
50:08
Well, the traditional model is you look for a building and
50:10
start paying rent. I would say no, you need to as
50:15
Rod pointed out or as these giftings are organically being
50:19
realized because we're being proactive.
50:21
We're not passive, right? You split and now it's two house
50:26
churches instead of one. Now it's 3 instead of 2.
50:30
I could see benefit to that, but I know for a fact I've got a
50:33
church down the street from me. They, they created a thing the
50:38
the head pastor that it was a traditional church created this
50:42
thing called cell groups and they modeled it after, after
50:49
Christ and the disciples. You know, you had you limited it
50:52
to 12 people per house. Well, what ended up it ended up
50:56
being almost like a cult because and people were jealous of one
51:02
another. Whether I wish I was in that
51:05
house. Or he's got that guy.
51:07
All there, Yeah. And and and maybe what they
51:11
needed to do was OK if these twelve met X amount of times.
51:16
Now shuffle it up. Now you don't meet anymore.
51:20
You know, mix it. I I don't.
51:21
Know so they started in as a big group or.
51:24
They started as a big group and I think the cell groups was a
51:27
supplement to what they were doing on a traditional.
51:31
Sunday morning. But it but but it ended up being
51:36
a cancer to their their whole. Church and they still but they
51:40
but they kept the the leadership in place.
51:46
They kept the leadership in place as far as the Sunday
51:50
morning, the traditional pastor. Now those traditional pastors
51:56
ran cell groups and, you know, you almost like.
52:00
I wish I was in Pastor John's cell group because I would
52:03
really be learning. See, that's it.
52:05
We're we're nipping around the edges.
52:06
They they didn't. But that's yeah, but that's why
52:11
I I I LED with the question you got from top down 150, pastor
52:15
included. Want to reconstruct this.
52:18
And now if, if we're meeting, let's say we still meet once a
52:24
week, because the Bible does talk about forsake not the
52:27
assembling of ourselves, even more so as we see, you know, so
52:30
maybe we should be as, as signs of the times get more evident,
52:35
we need to meet more often, but open it up to, OK, I'm
52:41
recognizing this gift and maybe Rod, this is kind of what you
52:44
guys have been doing. We're seeing somebody that
52:46
really has an excellent teaching spirit, like they, they can
52:50
study the Bible like nobody's business and, and really just
52:53
get the word and they know how to deliver it.
52:56
So we might take turns like, OK, next week you're going to lead
53:01
the teaching. And because at some point, I'm
53:04
curious also how, how this deconstruction works when it
53:09
comes to meeting and spending worship time.
53:15
Rod, you mentioned you guys were meeting a lot for prayer, which
53:18
is awesome because I, I equate prayer and praise and worship.
53:23
They, they kind of flow together.
53:25
You know, I'm curious like if this new organization is
53:30
meeting, what if we just showed up and see what happens?
53:35
We come there with praise on our lips, with prayer on our tongue
53:40
and no agenda on who is going to bring a message and let's see
53:47
what happens. You know, someone might have an
53:49
inspiration of, I think the Lord's telling me this.
53:52
So there might be pause the music, pause the prayer and
53:55
there's a word of edification or, you know, there's a need
53:58
right here. Let's go pray for this person.
54:01
And it kind of flows. I, I, I don't know, I'm just
54:04
trying to understand kind of the dynamics of what you guys have
54:08
experienced or want want it to turn into.
54:13
Yeah, if you want, if you want to take that, that rod.
54:16
But that's that's exactly it, Luke.
54:17
And sometimes it is uncomfortable silences and you
54:20
have to detox from many of us decades of being passive on a
54:25
Sunday morning church to get people to function.
54:28
It takes a while, but go ahead. Yeah.
54:31
I think these are really great questions, Luke, because it
54:34
really is a gentle approach to as this gets dismantled in my
54:40
mind, where am I putting what's being taken apart?
54:43
Is any of it utilizable, right? Do I have to start from scratch
54:47
or can I reframe work this a little bit with keeping some of
54:51
these previous previously established boundaries?
54:57
Once again, great questions. I'm going to look at it just
55:00
through what, you know, overarching in the Bible, God
55:04
tells us, you know, subdue the earth, conquer, procreate,
55:08
right? So we know that we're supposed
55:09
to have land, we're supposed to have houses.
55:11
Doctor Monzo goes through and shows that in the Hebrew,
55:15
there's the construction that the pictographic, the ancient
55:18
Hebrew even demonstrates every root letter and meaning equates
55:23
to the same value of a house, a family and land.
55:28
So I just want to challenge, and this is not for your individual
55:32
question, Luke. This is for the zooming out to
55:34
the macrocosm of this issue. How many churches own buildings
55:38
in your local city? Now I want you to start to look
55:41
at the cities as you travel across your state.
55:45
You know, I'm in literally the population census of New York
55:49
City to Washington DC, huge population.
55:53
If I was to do a search on how many churches own a building and
55:58
what that building generates tax credit wise, the maintenance of
56:02
that building, right? And I was to reflect and look
56:06
for any of that in the Bible, I can't find it.
56:11
But what I can find is the absence of a highly detailed
56:14
edifying structure that God has created for the pruning of the
56:19
perfecting of His body, which is fivefold ministry.
56:22
So I would start to say things like if you have a building
56:25
that's paid off, maybe sell it and get land right and pop up
56:30
some small buildings with a rec center in the middle, middle of
56:33
that land. Why are there so many churches
56:36
that own buildings? And I'm saying this with a, a
56:38
right heart because literally it's just like being meek,
56:42
reserving my power, right? I could come for the jugular of
56:45
so many people and do it righteously and with an
56:49
anointing on me, but I'm reserving myself and a
56:51
gentleness to say, listen, let's think about what is wrong here,
56:57
right? Because God is, is going to in
56:59
his perfect timing, move a generation of people to be
57:03
completely in agreement with this idea that we have been
57:06
institutionalized and the function of the institution, the
57:09
tax credit and the dynamic of the what do you call this
57:17
denominational preferences is is not found in the Bible.
57:21
So I would say get land. If you have a big building and
57:25
it's paid off, sell it, get land, get a smaller building and
57:28
encourage a biblical model of meet ups.
57:31
That's from my perspective. Not everybody's going to agree
57:33
with me. You know, the whole cult thing
57:35
that you brought up where 12 people.
57:36
I think that that's a little bit religious and strict.
57:39
I think there needs to be a period, almost like a honeymoon,
57:42
where you're figuring out what are the highs and lows.
57:44
Can I really trust you? You know, I wrote this little
57:47
quote in my book, Luke is. It says trust is built when
57:51
you're in danger and I get closer to you rather than
57:54
running away. That's the premises of love.
57:58
So like, when you're going through it, you're in the
58:00
gutter. And this is what the men's
58:01
prayer group does that that God has given me.
58:03
This is why we're so involved. This is why we're driving to
58:06
meet and sharpen and just engaging with each other on a
58:09
daily, weekly basis. It's because you have the
58:12
opportunity to show yourself a soldier of Christ Jesus bearing
58:16
each other's burdens and so fulfilling the law.
58:18
So like as it grows, we're busting out the seams.
58:22
You said, OK, well then let's look for land first.
58:26
The land belongs to the people. We've been usurped.
58:29
We have abdicated our authority in so many ways that we're
58:34
sitting here trying to play minus and plus in the
58:37
construction of what is ensnared us, rather than zooming out and
58:40
just saying, God, are you doing something new?
58:42
What is happening? I came from the sun.
58:54
But one of you straight from that you really owe me.
59:01
All of my life I was beating up. All in my life I didn't handle
59:05
hope. All in my life I was stuck in a
59:07
trap. All in my life I didn't handle
59:10
wreck. I didn't know why my life was so
59:12
wet. I didn't know why my life was a
59:14
wreck. I didn't know why I couldn't get
59:17
up. I was so stuck.
59:18
And the monkey was stuck till I fell down.
59:20
And I broke everything till I fell down.
59:22
And they took everything until I was hurting my heart.
59:25
It was straight. Yeah, I was broke and I had all
59:28
this pain. I don't know man.
59:29
Got harder. Then I went to the side in this
59:32
mode. I had no truth but to look to my
59:35
guy. He gave me to me a move in my
59:37
eye. He gave me earrings and he told
59:39
me a blessed. He told me he just believe in
59:41
this guy. I told him I can't change all of
59:43
my ways. He said I got you, just look at
59:46
this. I looked at him and he showed me
59:48
his ways. Then he just told me how I am
59:50
this time. Then he just told me I'm not in
59:53
this one. He told me I come from the
59:55
what's up? I'm a new creature.
59:57
I come from the sun, from the one and only straight from the
59:59
heavens. You really owe me.
1:00:01
I came from the sun I was really with them.
1:00:03
The heavenly places I'm ceiling. Y'all can't even go that way.
1:00:08
Y'all don't even know that way. Y'all want to play like Patty
1:00:12
cake but this ain't no game. But it's that way.
1:00:16
You wag this so fake when you walk under me and I know you're
1:00:19
a snake. You think you can beat me, but
1:00:22
you got to buy what you want in a way.
1:00:26
I'll put on your top and I'll break on your face.
1:00:29
I see you laughing. You think that you got me, but
1:00:32
you got no way. The evil you say for my life is
1:00:36
OK 'cause it's made for my good. My God is created.
1:00:39
He created you, so you really is good.
1:00:43
I said all these things 'cause I know when it's true and you know
1:00:46
you is good. Don't like that?
1:00:48
In case you don't win these games, you can never win.
1:00:51
I know the things that's gonna happen to you when you die in
1:00:53
the end. You didn't live in your life
1:00:56
'cause you know you can never go and get sake.
1:01:00
You know his crazy, His mercy was too from you.
1:01:02
When you're my son in the pot. I thought you could take on my
1:01:05
God's spot now. But you can die hot.
1:01:08
You was really tweaking. I come from the sun, from the
1:01:10
one alone straight from the heavens.
1:01:13
You really owe me. I came from the sun.
1:01:15
I was really with them. And heavenly places.
1:01:17
I'm sealing. Y'all can't even go that way.
1:01:21
Y'all don't even know y'all.