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Islamist Inquisitor ideologues vs. industrious Iranian intelligentsia · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  If we've learned anything from these past couple of years, my fellow Americans is that personal medical freedom and liberty are in crisis.
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  Eastern.
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  I'm talking about the box with unpack myths, it's going innovations and give you actual insights into the world of medicine and health.
• 0:45
  Today's guest is Mark Changhizi.
• 0:47
  He's a physicist as well as social and political commentator.
• 0:51
  And I'm honored to have him discuss today with us the issues going on in Iran, centered around the war and possible regime change.
• 0:59
  Mark has been a steady defender of freedom, both here against lockdowns and for the people of Iran currently.
• 1:08
  Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your perspective.
• 1:20
  And for those that don't know me, I'm a scientist, sort of evolutionary biologist, cognitive scientist, uh physicist, mathematician type.
• 1:27
  And uh I became a little bit more well known in socio-political, you know, circles when COVID hit, and I was uh agitating for anti-lockdowns and free speech and uh pushing back on the COVID interventions.
• 1:42
  Um I guess you know, during that time, uh Randy got to know me, and uh he and I have talked and I've uh gotten to know a lot of uh the political world uh through uh since COVID, I suppose.
• 1:55
  Fair enough.
• 1:56
  And uh uh the shirts uh uh not lying, or it is lying.
• 2:01
  And uh what what are what are the let's just talk about lies?
• 2:05
  Uh what are the the um kind of streams, you know, they say uh in in war um truth is the first casualty.
• 2:12
  Uh what are what are the kind of themes and memes going around that you see that you would counter.
• 2:20
  Well, I mean there's so many.
• 2:23
  Uh the one nice thing about 10 7, there's nothing nice about 10-7.
• 2:28
  But after 10-7, uh there were the it became a honeypot for Jew hatred from and so it identified uh a whole spectrum of folks.
• 2:40
  These were folks on the left who came out to be part of the free Palestine movement.
• 2:45
  Uh it uh identified uh uh Muslims who aren't in fact merely Muslim, they're Islamists, they're Islamo fascists, and it and identified those among the right, the far woke right who were also these Jew haters.
• 2:57
  And it was a honeypot for these, it just sucked them all in.
• 3:01
  And now the anti-war effort is really disproportionately overwhelmed by their voices, those that have humiliated themselves by holding this free Palestine position, which was never about freeing Palestine.
• 3:14
  And so the the one of the reasons they've one of the most surprising things is for from Iranians' point of view, and and it's not that surprising for me that's been embedded in American politics.
• 3:25
  But a lot of these Iranians from Iran and my family who VPN in and are now dumbfounded that they're Jews.
• 3:33
  That is their Zionist shills, right?
• 3:36
  Iranians, like look, they they're trying to we want freedom from Islamists, but now supposedly we're just Zionist shills for wanting that, or maybe there wasn't actually a massacre and it's all uh uh uh you know a psyop, or if there was a massacre, it was the Jews that did it.
• 3:53
  And so there's or it's this is all uh a war to cover up the Epstein files.
• 3:58
  Literally, this is the kind of stuff that people are saying.
• 4:00
  And and then, you know, if it had just erupted now, we would be confused, but they've already identified themselves through four three years of uh pre-Palestine, which was never about freeing the Gazans.
• 4:13
  If it was about freeing Gazans, it would have been anti-Hamas, anti-Islamic Republic who started that war, anti-Hezbolah, but instead it romanticized all of those figures.
• 4:24
  And it uh it's presumed that they were Gazan free freedom fighters.
• 4:28
  They're Gazan freedom fighters in no more sense than the Islamic Republic are Iranian freedom fighters.
• 4:35
  Um free Palestine has always meant uh Islamo-fascism and and uh support for Islamo-fascism, and much more importantly, from the left and woke rights point of view, hatred of Israel, of Jews and uh much of the West.
• 4:50
  And um free free Iran really does just mean free Iranians from Islamo fascism.
• 4:58
  So you know, we're uh we we are symbols of the lie or the ethical uh mistake that they made when they fell into the free Palestine movement.
• 5:09
  That's why they hate us.
• 5:12
  So I I for a long period of time I had uh Professor Carlos Blanco on my show.
• 5:18
  Um and he was a Venezuelan minister of sports uh before the Ugo Chavez era.
• 5:25
  And uh he's been on a kind of mine, he's a friend of mine, and it's also been on my show five times probably.
• 5:31
  Um, we were monitoring various of the Venezuela you know, corruption, you know, all this kind of stuff, and we've talked about all the parts of South America.
• 5:41
  Well um, but at the end of the day, you know, I said, well, nothing, you know, all talk, nothing really is gonna happen until there's you know some kind of force major, something comes along that that you know tips the um existing order, you know.
• 5:58
  Um Qaddafi, um, and no death spot worth his death spots in wood.
• 6:05
  Um and so they you know nothing would ever happen.
• 6:10
  Um even so, you know, I I I think the same thing there with Iran.
• 6:14
  I mean, we've got millions of people protesting so what's happening, you know, in the absence, I mean, in the presence of gun control, where the guns are all controlled by the IRTC, and so forth, nothing would ever happen.
• 6:26
  Um what was the situation mental before um uh the last community um in Iran, and and could things have happened organically?
• 6:38
  Some people I've seen uh have this kind of counter-narrative, like, oh, we should have just left things alone.
• 6:42
  Uh the Iranian regime is the most vulnerable as been 47 years, and uh blah, blah, blah, so forth.
• 6:48
  Now, I've seen this kind of play play out a number of times.
• 6:51
  I think 2009, there was major uprising, um, you know, other junctions and so forth.
• 6:56
  Um, Obama kind of took the hands-off approach, um, or took the scale the other way uh towards the uh bull is and whatnot.
• 7:04
  Um what's the counterfactual world where uh things would have changed in uh Iran uh for the better.
• 7:13
  I um, you know, I I'm sure that there are examples where it could potentially I I think that they had become more fragile in the sense that so here's the key thing that I think to first order, it's almost impossible to overcome an authoritarian government like this.
• 7:31
  Um, but it can potentially happen.
• 7:33
  But as you saw, it's just sort of pickup trucks and uh with with machine guns on it, sort of you know, 70-year-old pickup trucks, as far as you know, the uh that they all they had to be was enough to mow down tens of thousands of of civilians.
• 7:47
  It doesn't take much to keep the populace down uh when it's like that, even if the populace is together and united being against the government.
• 7:54
  Um I think it can go on for generations that they potentially don't break out.
• 7:59
  It could potentially happen, but often there needs to be some kind of spark or some kind of external help.
• 8:04
  But the other way around, a lot of people forget um an external spark or some kind of help is often still not sufficient.
• 8:12
  So you couldn't imagine a bigger spark than the IDF uh uh uh you know killing 30 or 40,000 Hamas in the massive war that's gone on for the last three years.
• 8:22
  But that's unfortunately not going to be enough to actually displace Hamas being in power in Gaza, because what governs Gaza and what used to govern the Islamic Republic, what governed Iran was not merely top-down Islamist authoritarianism, it was bottom-up totalitarianism with just lots and lots of Hamas and Islamist supporters on the streets uh policing you.
• 8:46
  So you'd be walking down the street and a little bit of hair is showing where you're not dressed appropriately, or they know that you said something against the regime, or maybe you look homosexual, whatever, but the the people on the street themselves will police you.
• 8:58
  So people are afraid to speak out against the regime uh because of who knows who might be policing it up bottom up.
• 9:06
  That is is what real totalitarianism is, and that's the most dystopian and scary kind.
• 9:12
  And the problem is that is if you go as an external force and say, okay, we're just gonna decimate all of the those in power, you will just find the them bubbling back up into power again amongst the subset of the population, just a minority of the population that uh supports the same ideas.
• 9:28
  They'll just like emptying water in when there's a flood, you know, right back into the river, and the whole street is flooded anyway.
• 9:34
  It doesn't make any difference.
• 9:35
  Where it makes a difference is when the population has overcome the prisoner's dilemma.
• 9:39
  This is the kind of prisoner's dilemma.
• 9:40
  It might be 80% of the population that doesn't like the regime, but they don't know who they are.
• 9:45
  And they're, you know, if they all spoke up at once, they could overwhelm the entire thing potentially if they get some guns.
• 9:51
  Um, but no one wants to be the first head that pokes up.
• 9:53
  So individually it's rational to keep your head down, and so they remain uh uh they don't have the confidence.
• 10:00
  It's overwhelmed the 20%, 5% even has confidence.
• 10:03
  That switched in Iran over the last year.
• 10:06
  You know, it's been changing over time, but it became unambiguously clear over the last two or three months that they broke past that.
• 10:13
  Now, if anything, people on the street, if they mention that they're Islamists and they support the Islamic Republic, they're probably going to get their names down, you know, names written down where they live and their house burned down by Iranian civilians.
• 10:26
  It's much more dangerous now for them individually on the streets.
• 10:31
  So, you know, there's so I I think that this the argument, the point here is that not every people that deserve to be free are unfortunately ready to be free, are able to be free.
• 10:43
  You just sometimes you just literally can't free them, even when you have the power of the IDF over Gaza and all that they did to destroy them.
• 10:50
  Unfortunately, Hamas is still there.
• 10:52
  Um that's not the case, in my opinion in Iran.
• 10:55
  It's ripe for toppling.
• 10:57
  Not only are they weak, but the population is ready and they've they're completely unambiguous and united and wanting the regime to be gone.
• 11:04
  And I think that was probably the case in Venezuela, although I'm not as knowledgeable about it.
• 11:09
  So, you know, Iran's a everyone becomes an expert in these countries after the fact.
• 11:15
  You know, we learned all the provinces like Afghanistan, Iraq and all kinds of stuff.
• 11:19
  Um, you know, there's Iran.
• 11:20
  And uh you know, think of it uh as Denver by the Caspian or something like that.
• 11:26
  Um but uh kind of climate and mountains and whatnot.
• 11:30
  But uh there are other cities and you know, there's Qum and Mashdad and Tabiz and Shira's and whatnot.
• 11:40
  You know, are are we you know kind of uh Qurano centric?
• 11:45
  Um the uh tyranny and Tehran, um we lose sight of the fact that other places might have their own interests and or sensibilities, as well as you know, ethnic um visions and whatnot.
• 11:58
  What's the you know, does everything kind of play out in the intellectual capital um of the country, or do they uh are people as one throughout the country?
• 12:08
  Are there holdouts?
• 12:10
  Um you know, I we always hear about Khore being a kind of a religious center.
• 12:14
  It's not that far from Taiwan, it's much smaller and whatnot, but um you know, do uh you know, is there gonna be a civil war?
• 12:23
  Are there gonna be factions?
• 12:24
  I mean, how do how do you know what what's your kind of like um minding uh working uh outplay of all this?
• 12:31
  Well, my look, my take is I'm not an expert in the in the fine details of the geography by any means.
• 12:39
  Um, but my own feeling from my own family and my own families, and then watching online is that there's uh from even the small towns were overwhelmingly Javi Shah and Jabid Shah.
• 12:51
  Um the Kurds are overwhelmingly uh pro uh pro uh uh Shah.
• 12:57
  They want to overlook it and the Baluch and all of many minorities all over the country seem to be fairly united.
• 13:02
  Yeah, I I get the feeling that a lot of the biggest holdouts are you know, sort of this kind of a faux intellectual slash leftist class of of Islamists that were educated and brainwashed and part of the elites that are the ones really really holding the line.
• 13:21
  Um that's the that's the feeling that I have.
• 13:25
  So, you know, there's been water this watermelon thing, um, you know, green and red, uh, and black potentially, but uh green and red going together, and is uh I think uh you know big posters in the UK, whatnot, um and elsewhere, you know, watermelon, um watermelon uh um picture over Israel, uh it's kind of this red and green, um both the colors of I guess uh and other countries in the region, whatever, but they also I think it it evokes the uh red of communism and green of Islam going together, but also the kind of the red of communism and the green of the Greek.
• 14:05
  Uh it seems like all the left is kind of imbued, you know, the Greta Thunberg, red and green, um uh you know, all these people kind of like um you know, following uh various false flags, whether it's you know, Hamas, BLO, whatever, the uh uh current, you know, Iran IRDC uh agglomeration and whatnot.
• 14:26
  Um what's what's up with that?
• 14:28
  I mean, there's always I'll just kind of make the question a little murkier as well.
• 14:32
  I apologize, but you know, the Ba'aq party um was a socialist creation, uh, you know, in Iraq and it seems to be like uh a whole swirl of socialism all the time.
• 14:43
  Um and you know, the the uh leak not lamented Ali Khamani, uh his uh favorite author was uh his favorite book was Lady Isgabla, and he has a whole bunch of other uh Steinbeck and whatnot, all of the kind of the socialist aspects.
• 14:59
  Um uh I told Khomeini uh who's trained in Mumbo University in Moscow, um, and it's kind of ushered in by the socialists.
• 15:11
  And you know, what what is this the deal there?
• 15:13
  I mean, the socialists seem to be always the um Charlie Brown with the football, you know.
• 15:18
  They they uh Lucy keep you know, the Islamists kind of keep enticing and then pulling everything away at the last second.
• 15:25
  Are socialists just gullible?
• 15:27
  Well, what's the deal there?
• 15:28
  And how much you know, does that call play in kind of yeah?
• 15:33
  Uh I I mean, this is I think a nice reminder um that Islamism, the problem with you know, I've been going on and on about this for the last year, uh I've probably 40 episodes of my science moment series on that Islamism is not equal to Islam.
• 15:49
  And those on the left and the right make the same equation, they equate them and for different reasons.
• 15:54
  The left equates them because this way, if if they're the same thing, then uh then they can back Islamism because Muslims are generally good.
• 16:06
  There's two billion Muslims, and so Islamism must be good and they must be freedom fighters and they're anti-West and they can use them and identify with them and glorify them as their uh folks that are fighting Israel in the West.
• 16:17
  And those on the right want to identify them because they don't like Islamists, and so it makes it easier in these conflicts with somebody like Gaza to say, well, uh they're all all Gazans, which are Muslims are our enemies, and not have to try to make this fine and and not have to try to to figure out which you know Muslims are Islamists and which Muslims are just Muslims.
• 16:35
  Um but but they're not the same.
• 16:38
  Um Islam is is there's there's as many people that are Muslim today as there were people on earth in the 1920s.
• 16:47
  Um so and and then there's massive diversity.
• 16:50
  Most and and they vary as much as the cultures that they're cult that what those people were like before Islam is ultimately still 90% of what it's like to be in those cultures, like in Iran, which was was 99% Muslim in 1979, now probably 30% Muslim, and even most of those um now uh uh hate the Islamic Republic.
• 17:09
  Uh the reason I want to because people want they they look at Islamism and they say, oh, Islam is inherently fascist, right?
• 17:17
  It's inherently like those Islamists that I hate.
• 17:21
  Now, the we need to push back on that and and remember that Islamism is just another collectivism.
• 17:27
  It happens to be that in the Muslim world, most of which all the dictators which are everywhere are in fact secular, right?
• 17:33
  Even in the Muslim world, you've got let's say 30 secular dictators, you know, that that that over the last 50 or 100 years, and there's only been two or two and a half theocracies.
• 17:42
  The Islamic Republic, the Taliban, and I'll add, I'll add uh Hamas, which is sort of a semi-state, right?
• 17:48
  The rest are all varieties of secular dictatorships.
• 17:52
  If you look in the Christian world, Christendom or the West, you'll find the same thing.
• 17:55
  Most of the dictators that uh that plagued us over the last hundred years uh were varieties of secular fascism of some kind or communism, and they had narratives that didn't necessarily pull directly from Christianity.
• 18:07
  But some of them did, a subset of them did.
• 18:10
  Franco did Mussolini did.
• 18:12
  They they pulled from from the religion, you know, of their own religions and used those to back and justify and build narratives that to defend their fascism, and so did the Nazis.
• 18:22
  But most of them, in fact, didn't.
• 18:24
  But what I want to, I'm trying to what I'm trying to point out is that Islamism, unfortunately, in the Muslim world, when it when there's fascism that paints itself or colors itself with the religion of the locals, they use the word Islamism.
• 18:36
  Whereas when it happened in the Christian world, they don't call it Christianism or something like this.
• 18:40
  They'll they might call it Christian nationalism, they might call it Nazism, which often did have its own weird philosophy that tried to rid the Jews from the history of Christianity, but they don't call it Christianism.
• 18:51
  Because as soon as you said Christianism, well then it starts to paint all Christians as Christianists, which would be just as dumb as painting all Christians as white supremacists just because white supremacists and Nazis tend to be Christians.
• 19:04
  So my point is that we shouldn't be surprised that leftists and Islamists have gone together because these are just um just cousin collectivisms that go together.
• 19:15
  And once you're part of and you grow up in the world of Islam, well, you're pulling from different kinds of narratives that we're not familiar with.
• 19:22
  This there, we have our own narratives that come from our own Christian Judeo Christian Christian traditions, they come from Islamic traditions for the last 1400 years.
• 19:30
  So they end up pulling a lot of those.
• 19:31
  But ultimately, that's just window dressing on top of their variety of fascism.
• 19:37
  Um and so that that I I feel like you have to take away the religious aspect aspect of these theocracies, it's not really about the religion at all.
• 19:46
  It's just fascism, collectivism dressed up in the religion.
• 19:50
  That doesn't mean they think about it that way.
• 19:52
  They really think about it as you know a very religious thing, but then again, so do the socialists.
• 19:56
  Socialists thought of their socialism and the narratives that they packaged up, whether
• 20:00
  Was with Christianity as part of the packaging or not, they felt deeply about it as socialists, just as as strongly in a very religious-like sense about the brotherhood of socialists and the workers, right?
• 20:10
  All of these things filled the same parts of their brain, the same religious sort of uh uh parts of their brain, all the same stuff.
• 20:18
  So we're gonna hold that thought for just a second and be right back with Mark Changhizi and hopefully you as well, or our second segment.
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• 23:38
  So we're here for a second segment with physicist Mark Chang speaking about Iran.
• 23:43
  And last he was making the distinction between Islam and Islamism and making an analogy between Christianity and Christianism as such applied and say it's more violent innovations previously.
• 23:55
  But I would hold that Christianity has had its reform reformation a few centuries ago and is in a far distinctly different place from what it was in what Islam is essentially now, which is its more medieval form.
• 24:09
  And Christianity, Catholicism in particular, did more than anybody else to break up tribalism by prohibiting cousin marriage, which still goes on extensively in the Muslim world, particularly Pakistan and so forth, and thus could have been brought about the Great Enlightenment and then the Renaissance and whatnot.
• 24:28
  And people kind of got more of an ecumenical view away from their own particular tribe because they had to meet and greet people from elsewhere in order to marry.
• 24:38
  And this broke up kind of a very uh intense uh tribal teachings and thought about alliances.
• 24:47
  Um we're all familiar with the kind of prestige of Europe, you know, the puzzle to me why the king of England has German roots and Prince Philip was Greek and whatnot.
• 24:58
  But this has been going on for centuries, where in order to um fill in the chessboard and marry somebody from some other place, you want to be alive.
• 25:08
  So all these relations uh cross over.
• 25:10
  Whereas, you know, even if we're assuming the great virtue of all people, inherently, and some of these religious capital case people work around one way or another.
• 25:20
  Um, Islam has not reached this reformation point.
• 25:22
  And what we see is a sense, you know, kind of a time shift of you know, you're full of a number of centuries uh of advancement along the lines of how people are gonna get along, and and whether you can achieve the kind of economy 2.0 of benign Adam Smithian type trade and concord between nations when you have kind of intense tribal aspects.
• 25:48
  Whether we could you know put on uh you know the happy face of democracy on Afghanistan, apparently not.
• 25:53
  Um, everything kind of reverted to tribalism and um you know the same kind of you know, order of the sword, uh, brutality, repression of women, whatever you want to call it, or just you know, Islam.
• 26:05
  Um, I think there's a uh a gap between Pakistan and India, uh along the same lines.
• 26:12
  And why not?
• 26:13
  So, you know, yeah, it it's and and I guess it would leave with one other part, which is kind of the central, I'm not uh Christian or Islamist, but um Muslim, but you know, the central ethos of the edict of Christianity is kind of the love of the neighbor.
• 26:30
  And uh this doesn't seem you know that that is really the central you have to like crystal crystallize um uh Islam into a trade, whatever it doesn't seem that's the same thing.
• 26:42
  Um, you know, it seems to be much more uh aggressive.
• 26:47
  Yeah, I I there's no doubt that that the Muslim world um is behind uh the West in terms of of you know moving towards democracy.
• 26:57
  Um, then again, um the entire world is behind the West and moving towards democracy.
• 27:03
  So it's that you know the question is whether it's disproportionately behind relative to you know uh uh the average place in some statistical sense.
• 27:11
  I think that people forget um that sure they're 50, 75 years behind in it, depending on how you want to measure this.
• 27:19
  Um, but well after the Reformation, we're just talking about the 20th century, uh, Christian nations, Christendom was responsible for the greatest crimes of of humanity that have ever existed.
• 27:29
  Um when they created secular collectivisms, they were Christians, people born in Christianity that did it.
• 27:38
  They were part of Christian societies, even if they themselves created narratives very often, which were anti-religious in the case of the communists, these were still Christian-born people built, you know, born of Christian values in Christian societies.
• 27:50
  And then afterwards, once communism gone, they all went back to Christianity again.
• 27:53
  They didn't become they weren't Jews, they weren't Muslims, they weren't some other kind of great.
• 27:58
  No, they were Christians.
• 27:59
  People seem to think that you can point to elements of the old texts, and that defines what a religion is.
• 28:08
  Um, what a religion is isn't anything in those old texts.
• 28:11
  It's not a rule book.
• 28:13
  It's evolved cultural traditions, and there's a diverging phylogeny of evolved cultural traditions in all of these different places.
• 28:21
  And we called them Christianity to the extent that they are sufficiently close in the branching tree, just like in you know, for animals.
• 28:28
  And in the Muslim branching tree, there's massive diversity as well.
• 28:32
  The Shah of Iran, 1979 and before, secular society, everybody's seen these old pictures of Iran in the 70s and the graduating class of women for lawyers.
• 28:43
  They look as the they might as well be in, you know, in America, as far as you can tell in the 70s with dorky haircuts, you know, kind of whatever the 70s look.
• 28:50
  Um, that was a Muslim society.
• 28:53
  No, it wasn't an Islamist society.
• 28:55
  Everybody there was born Muslim.
• 28:57
  They they may be, but so we people want to say, oh, well, they're not real Muslims.
• 29:01
  Why?
• 29:01
  Why aren't they real Muslims?
• 29:03
  Because they're not doing the most crazy shit that the most extreme Islamists of the whatever.
• 29:08
  So people want to sometimes say, whatever the most crazy stuff in the phylogenetic tree that we call uh under the umbrella of some religion.
• 29:15
  We find the most crazy ass people who create their own interpretations, their own cultural traditions, and say, if you don't do that, then you're not really that thing.
• 29:24
  That's not how it works.
• 29:25
  Cultural evolution uh and religions are just part of cultural revolution.
• 29:28
  Cultural evolution are massive trees of diversity.
• 29:32
  And to the extent that you have the same ancestor, you're that religion.
• 29:36
  If it's determining, and and and often they have very different notions of what it is to be a true believer, and it's not defined by the most Islamist and the most fascist among them.
• 29:45
  So I'm not when I point out that Christians are responsible or people who were born in the Christian society responsible for the fascisms and the collectivisms and communisms and socialisms, which are the great crimes of humanity of the 20th century, and democlies and genocides.
• 29:59
  I'm not blaming Christianity.
• 30:00
  By the way.
• 30:01
  I'm blaming humankind, humankind peoples are susceptible to these sorts of collectivisms.
• 30:08
  And when whatever religion is around, sometimes they'll use the narratives from those religions to window dress it, and very often they won't.
• 30:17
  And we find the same things in Islam as we and but this is not to so people.
• 30:23
  But I'm the you will not find people who hate Islamists more than Iranians.
• 30:27
  So this is not me defending Islamism.
• 30:30
  The people that are that are in the UK that are on the streets praying in the middle of this all this bull crap, these are Islamists.
• 30:36
  They need to be they need to be shut down.
• 30:38
  And if you go to any is Islamic any Muslim majority country, they are the least tolerant of Islamists.
• 30:46
  They have a zero tolerance policy to Islamists.
• 30:49
  They hate Islamists.
• 30:49
  The only people that go around acting as of Islamists are just Muslims and be are leftists in the West, right?
• 30:55
  Nobody should be tolerant.
• 30:57
  It's Muslims that are crying out, what are you guys doing?
• 31:00
  You're gonna be in a Muslim, you're gonna be an Islamist country soon, because no Muslim country wants to be an Islamist country, except you know, except the subset of them that are these Islamist fascists that they need to be crushed.
• 31:13
  Well, it's an interesting point.
• 31:15
  You know, uh my understanding is you know, I mean not only is his name literally uh backwards ISIS, but uh Sisi in Egypt doesn't put up with us, you know, his name is SISI.
• 31:29
  I always thought it was funny because ISIS is um ISIS, and he doesn't put up with any of the ISIS crap.
• 31:35
  We literally um as well as uh uh uh by name, the opposite ISIS.
• 31:42
  We don't put up with that.
• 31:43
  Yeah, and even in Urdogan, which is I don't know exactly understand what game that he's playing, but you go to Turkey, I've been to Turkey many times, it was just there last month.
• 31:51
  Um Turkey is is a you might you feel like you're basically most of the time in in Europe, maybe eastern Europe.
• 31:57
  Um the population of of Turkey is tolerant.
• 32:00
  They're moving slowly away from towards more secular and moving away from Islam, not fast in the way that the Iranians did, but it's uh it's a highly secular society.
• 32:10
  I'd say maybe one third of women have a of a light headscarf, the rest are just like in the West.
• 32:14
  Um nobody there on the streets, there's no bottom-up support at all for any notion of Islamism um that which we get crushed.
• 32:22
  So to the extent that Erdogan's playing some kind of game, he's flirting with these for some kind of international power plays that he's making, but no one wants any of that stuff there either.
• 32:32
  Is that Turkey, like many other places, you know, it's complicated.
• 32:36
  The you know, Istanbul is a lot of Turks are there, but that's not Turkish percent.
• 32:43
  And a lot of the demographic push function in the East, um, in Ankara and beyond, um, where people are having more kids and more traditional, and there's a demographic push that you know you see that you know, it's kind of this uh mimical part of kind of the movement towards liberal democracy that whatever reason tends to uh I don't know, it ties up the Loki Jews or whatever, but don't have kids, and um there's kind of this grip in Turkey towards you know, kind of greater uh numbers of more fundamental uh parents of this.
• 33:23
  Well, it that's certainly I mean, I uh half of my trips to you to to Turkey, I've been to Ankara, actually.
• 33:28
  Um, and I was just at Inzmir um recently.
• 33:30
  But even in Turkey, even given the whole demo demographic variation within Turkey, uh the recent data that I saw was still a slow but inexorable seeming uh move towards uh less you know, the new generations are all less Muslim than they than they were before.
• 33:46
  Um and we're talking about a population that was never very Islamist, they've they've always been a uh uh a very secular of respecting kind of uh uh society in the first place.
• 33:56
  Uh I haven't been farther east than Ankara, though, and I'm sure there's there's variability there.
• 34:03
  Yeah, um the the actual mosques in Iran, you know, I I've seen uh images of some of them being burned down, whatnot.
• 34:17
  What is the kind of church versus state versus people?
• 34:21
  What's the dynamic uh there?
• 34:24
  Uh you know, it would be a hate crime to you know uh sticker uh mosque, whatever, or you know, touch anybody who's going to prayer in the street.
• 34:34
  Um how do people parse that out?
• 34:36
  I mean, it's just uh well I mean I mean, in my uh my understanding is that that the Basij and you know Sepa and a lot of these they're they're actually just arming and and organizing inside mosques, and that's you know, but in the absence of you know all of the other spaces that have been destroyed, they either have always been um or are now currently um using them as their as their convening, you know, convening there.
• 35:06
  And so that makes them legitimate targets uh both to Israel and the United States, but also to the Iranian civilians who know this and are just setting them on fire.
• 35:14
  Um that said, just generally, you know, it I've been making that as I mentioned before, I've been making this point that Islam is not equal to Islamism for the last year, and the people on the right hate me for it, the people in the left hate me for it for different kinds of reasons.
• 35:27
  Um, but Iranians also don't, you know, as even though I'm in Iran.
• 35:31
  I I don't I don't even make this argument to them in some sense because it's like trying to make a subtle point to an abused victim of uh of someone, you know, they're like they're they're not ready to hear any kind of subtle conversation about that.
• 35:45
  There's other is Muslims elsewhere that aren't necessarily Islamists.
• 35:48
  There's like just shut the fuck up, we hate Islam now.
• 35:51
  And it's like I get it, right?
• 35:53
  So they're they're not they're not ready to hear any conversation.
• 35:56
  They're there, they don't just hate Islamism, they really hate Islam for the most part, and they're not ready to have any uh the so that they're they're way past the point of of accepting any Islam in their country.
• 36:08
  Obviously, there's still plenty of Muslims, they're still 25, 30 percent of people that are Muslims, and they're not necessarily just some small subset of them are still supporters of the Islamic Republic, but most of them are not.
• 36:17
  So most I think most Iranians do get it that they're still a subset of their population that's Muslim, and that doesn't mean that that's their enemy, but overall they're highly Islamophobic in the in the traditional sense in which we use that word, you know.
• 36:31
  So just getting back to civil structure.
• 36:33
  My understanding is a lot of the riots happen because of uh the pocketbook.
• 36:37
  You know, my guess is that you know Iran sitting on a uh technical term for you know uh uh crackling, but you know, they're sitting on a uh you know crap ton of oil and and natural gas and whatnot.
• 36:55
  They essentially would be you know as well wealthy as the Saudis and whatnot, um, but they divert the money towards uh you know their proxy safe behavior, Isla mosque, and um you know they probably swirl away a fair amount of it for themselves.
• 37:12
  Uh and and the people essentially are starving, there's also been mismanagement.
• 37:15
  I mean, just this total side note, I've heard a subsequent on the fact that Tehran, a good part of the rest of the country literally gonna die of thirst.
• 37:25
  Uh the reservoirs, this is nothing, you know, from uh little Satan or great Satan.
• 37:30
  It's uh just this you know, actual Satan of uh Islamic regime in Iran that they have not had good care about the water, and so they have kind of a diminishing uh you know viability there.
• 37:46
  Um so there's you know all kinds of structural things that happen to put people on the street just because of the pocketbooks and whatnot.
• 37:52
  Uh given that things were kind of tenuous then, uh, and we sympathize whatever with the you know kind of these material needs, uh what happens you know in the short term to longer term and whatnot, and how much of it was kind of an economic uh aspect and what do you think brought about this dismantle?
• 38:08
  Is it kind of how I feel as that they're just diverting their money towards you know, guns and missiles and whatnot for not how do people feel about that?
• 38:19
  I mean, obviously that that surely the the the spark of the the December demonstrations came out of some economic you know a particular bazaar that had they had uh gone on strike.
• 38:33
  But I my understanding is the people that nobody that I've talked to is on the streets and crying Javich Shah because of their pocketbook.
• 38:42
  They're they're crying it because they hate the regime because of the uh the oppression by the regime, both to women and to uh everybody for the last 47 years.
• 38:52
  Um, and this was before the the recent massacre.
• 38:54
  So they are there for political freedom is uh the reasons that they're crying it.
• 38:58
  They're not crying for bread.
• 38:59
  Um, these are a highly educated population.
• 39:02
  You know, the the Iranian people, despite the Islamism that you know they manage there, they're a smart, independently minded people that still have some of the best educated population in the world, and especially in the Muslim world, the form, you know, they're not Muslim anymore, but they're part of the Muslim world.
• 39:19
  Um, so uh there this is not uh people crying for the bread.
• 39:23
  Um and this has been really annoying Iranians.
• 39:25
  Some people are taking videos recently, and there's showing some videos before the demonstrations, and they're finding parts of Tehran where there was a lot of women that either didn't have headscarf, because for a while the the morality police was backing off because there was a lot of pressure.
• 39:39
  It's like, let's just see if we can let so you could find places that where there was they were letting people not wear their headscarves, and it looked like just like uh, you know, people were out there having fun.
• 39:48
  But of course you can always find in tyranny pockets where people are out having normal lives, or the tyrants are not constantly every moment going out and attacking you.
• 39:56
  And so, like, say, look, Iran was fine, why are people complaining?
• 39:58
  And I was like, well, why don't you just take
• 40:00
  Why didn't you go out and take some video in January 8th and January 9 and see what the videos look like then?
• 40:06
  Just because you can find videos where people are looking happy in a nation, then that doesn't that doesn't justify it or explain away why hundred, you know, why millions were out on the streets uh uh uh demonstrating against it, and it doesn't explain away why the government would go uh massacre tens of thousands.
• 40:22
  So they're the people have some some misunderstanding of what tyranny looks like.
• 40:26
  They seem to imagine that at all times there's people actually tied in chains and walking around with dragging, you know, like they're in torture the entire time.
• 40:34
  That's not what political freedom and political oppression is about.
• 40:38
  Um what what's the pathway here?
• 40:42
  Um and what are the sensibilities?
• 40:46
  It's just uh it seems kind of a uh all of the miracle um that you know a nation population of New York City, um able to kind of swoop in and does do this.
• 41:00
  Um I I was very down on the dumps on the cover of seventh and eighth and night so forth for a while in 2023.
• 41:09
  Um I I I saw the you know Irani proxy um pathway umology play out.
• 41:17
  Uh you know, it just seemed like it was a trap, uh, you know, kind of um finger traps you get in the harder you pull, the harder you know they hold you.
• 41:27
  Um try to decapitate Hamas all the time that missiles are going to um Lebanon and all the potentialities of things going awry, and really, you know, again, kind of New York City population played out in a slightly, you know, maybe the size of New Jersey or something like that.
• 41:44
  And and yet have all this kind of boomerang and have it, you know, kind of switch back, you know, the three H club, the Hamas and law.
• 41:54
  And then go for the you know, the puppeteer.
• 41:57
  Uh it's just an incredible kind of event.
• 42:01
  Iran's perspective, and whether there's any kind of envy towards Israel for having rescued them, whether it might be some latent animosity ultimately, but we're gonna drill down on that bit in just a little bit, stick around until the break occurs.
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• 45:52
  We're back for a third and final segment with Mark Chandhee.
• 45:55
  This is just an social political commentator and our man on the street for Iran.
• 46:04
  Are there people who I don't know, I guess would Israel as the savior?
• 46:08
  Are they resentful?
• 46:10
  And the fact that it took the you know, kind of the Jews or whatever to come and do this.
• 46:14
  Uh how do things play out emotionally?
• 46:16
  Is it going to be any kind of mixed emotion?
• 46:19
  I I mean, I think people's first intuitions are typically wrong.
• 46:23
  Um they're gonna they they uh we hate Israel because Israel is is strong, or there would be people that you say, well, there maybe they're jealous that Israel is strong.
• 46:30
  No, they're Israel is hated when it's weak.
• 46:33
  There was there was there was not a time in the last two or three decades when Israel was hated more than on 10-7.
• 46:41
  Um so that that humiliation on 10-7 that they were humiliated that day, there that's when the this new rise of anti-Semitism exploded all over the world.
• 46:51
  It exploded amongst the Islamists, it exploded amongst the left, and it exploded amongst the woke right.
• 46:56
  And such that by the end of the day on 10-7, you had demonstrations all over the world against Israel crying genocide, not about what just happened to the Jews in Israel, but about Gaza and genocide in Gaza when they hadn't the blood hadn't even dried.
• 47:14
  This happened worldwide.
• 47:15
  Um this is the same kind of thing that happens when you know you have a new fighter going up against the champion, and suddenly the champion gets taken down.
• 47:24
  All these people in the audience who were the champion, they actually like the champion, but now they're on the side of this new upcoming, you know, that this new underdog, you get behind this new horse because you want to be seen as being received.
• 47:36
  There's all this reputation to be had if you could be seen to being on the side of the of the rising socio-political community.
• 47:42
  This is by the way, why why did Iran, why did the Islamic Republic suddenly shoot at all of its neighbors hail Mary missiles?
• 47:49
  People say, This is crazy.
• 47:50
  Why would they be doing this?
• 47:51
  This is not crazy.
• 47:52
  I mean, it seems crazy.
• 47:54
  Why did Al Qaeda do 9-11?
• 47:57
  How would this have helped them?
• 47:59
  You could say, this is like sure they they did it, they they brought it down, they killed a bunch of civilians, but all they did was bring the powers of the West, powers of the United States on their heads.
• 48:07
  How is that helpful to them?
• 48:09
  Why did Hamas and the Islamic Republic carry out 10-7, killed a bunch of civilians and made no military, there was no military advantage by having done so?
• 48:18
  It only brought Israel down upon their head and devastated you know Hamas and Hezbollah and eventually uh Islamic Republic as well.
• 48:27
  Why did they do these things?
• 48:28
  They do these things because in doing so, the enemy looks humiliated and it makes their own side much more confident.
• 48:36
  It brings all of these new bodies and brains to their side, wanting to share in the wealth of the reputation wealth of this rising community.
• 48:45
  That's why 9/11 happens, why 10-7 happened.
• 48:47
  In fact, in the 10-7 notes for why they did 10-7, they thought it would bring upon a global intifada.
• 48:52
  They were hoping it would bring upon a global intifada, and it nearly did, in the sense that globally over the next few days and over the months, all over the world marching on the streets, free Palestine, free Palestine.
• 49:02
  No, it meant pro-Islamic Republic, it meant pro-Hamas, it meant pro-Islamism, it meant anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-West, anti-capitalism, all the different kinds of things.
• 49:10
  That's what it meant.
• 49:11
  Deaths and destruction randomly of even civilians may is a PR win for their side.
• 49:18
  This is what I've been talking about for the last three years.
• 49:20
  If they had hit the uh caliph, the Khalif Tower uh in in Dubai, for example, if they had hit it and done civ I don't think that the missile could have taken it out, but they've done severe damage.
• 49:32
  It could have been and it looked really cool and it spread, it would have made them look powerful, right?
• 49:38
  And the West, even though that's not even the West, but it's a symbol somehow still of the West, that kind of uh uh it could have made them look powerful, brought in many more people behind them, raised their confidence level, and uh potentially gave them um uh uh some you know breath into their stride so that they could uh do better.
• 49:56
  So this is the kinds of things that motivate these seemingly irrational terroristic.
• 50:00
  acts and it is rational in fact in that sense.
• 50:03
  No, I think terrorism is good business.
• 50:05
  I mean, Yasser Arafat died at William.
• 50:09
  You know, he was probably a mediocre engineer in Cairo and whatnot.
• 50:13
  And uh very successful business.
• 50:15
  People probably speak to this, but no, I I think this is that how it relates to COVID.
• 50:22
  This is just how we and I on that battle.
• 50:27
  But the little piece of the brain, the fear part is a um huge motivator.
• 50:33
  So you know we don't we don't want to give in to terrorism, but you know, when war people get kidnapped whatever you do extraordinary thing.
• 50:41
  And you want to live in fear the person who's able to do the punch, you know, has little power and figure power as well.
• 50:49
  Yeah.
• 50:50
  Yeah.
• 50:54
  During COVID, there was kind of this aspect where they were able to kind of uh she is a fascistic uh aspect of control they they lomb onto your fear centers uh were able to uh manipulate yeah now I mean uh and I I think they the sociopolitical communities select for that um and I don't you know I I don't think that they're necessarily even consciously aware of these sorts of explanations for why it works um they often just sort of feel it in their bones or they're you know but but uh yeah I I don't think Fauci was like okay if we just say these words we can get this kind of power they really believe that there was a disproportionately dangerous altogether novel I mean in the case of Fauci I'm not sure whether he believed because I think he was trying to do some CYA as we know is a longer story.
• 51:47
  But most people who who were s were spouting these things during COVID were true believers in the disproportionately dangerous altogether novel virus and um Arafat was probably you know a genuine believer in hating Israel and trying for you know that they they yes they're sometimes getting richer along the way sometimes they're not at all getting richer along the way their lives are degrading around them they've lost all their family like the Islamic Republic current leaders who were lasting six hours in some cases that they're only but they're still willing the next person's willing to step in these people are true uh believers in the in that sense this is not a utility expected utility optimizing move for them right but I like that um so I got a question a little bit out of the blue but you know it was puzzling me you know the the Nazis saw themselves as the Aryan nation they are we spelled ARY um this is the same term as Iran uh which you know various points with Persia um what what's the kind of derivation of the term Aryan why did I believe the Shah's uh decide that Persia was Iran um and then conversely you know the Islamic Republic sees themselves you know the IRGC doesn't stand for Iran it stands for Islamic revolutionary guard and they seem to be taking away from the concept of the Iranis as a people at all they they they want the um the nation uh you know ethno whatever the religious state to be Islam everywhere this kind of goes against the Arab sensibility because the Arabs are not Persian Iran or Persian is not Arab whatnot um I so you know I just thought it's kind of a little bit ironic that you know can the Jews play into this because you know this concept of the Iran you know Aryan nation like Hitler had to take down the Jews and get rid of the Jews and somehow uh the Jews are uh you know fighting against Iran it's just kind of it's a whole world of thing I haven't really quite figured out but I'm just wondering um etymologically and ethnologically uh how Iran came to be and how people there see themselves whether they're Persian Zoroastrian what whatever the traditions there they want to keep uh how do they move on into kind of a Persian or Iranian world uh that takes away makes the eye more Irani versus Islamic yeah I I'm not the best person to ask look I'm I'm Iranian I was a born in America my my cultural Iranian is certainly limited to relative to my wife you know in the other room but um you know most most Iranians are have often I hear them pushing back on this saying make Iran Persia again it's like Iran Persians are 60% of the population it refers to an ethnicity um Iran is is a multi-ethnic uh uh country and uh so there's no reason to go to the word Persian when then you're you're ignoring all of the other ethnicities which are proud Iranians and so uh they are happy to stick to the same term Iran and keep Iran the same as a plus um second but but you're right as I mentioned before there's a strong push as a new narrative that not only this is a false narrative but the narratives that are rising up after by virtue of 47 years of Islamic uh theocracy is that you know not only do they hate Islamism but they hate Islam and not only do they hit it hate Islam but Iran despite 1400 years of of having been you know under you know uh be been Muslim because of the the conquest and the slow change over 1400 years ago wasn't all at once it was just a um they were never Muslim the new narratives are we were never Muslim we're Zoroastrian there's a kind of whole new narratives walking in that are going to try to push aside the Islamic public that kind of history the Islam that it was associated with it and wanting to pull back their ancient heritage as part of it.
• 55:37
  So I hear the that's the kind of new narratives that are coming out of it that we are a people that are are are defined uh with and Islam has nothing to do with what defines the Iranian people and I think that's a that's it's still the a correct thing even if it's incorrect that they were never Islam between 1400 years ago and now that's just not true.
• 55:55
  But the new narratives are are our kind are are pushing Islam as far as I can tell entirely to the side is not even relevant to what it is to be in Iran.
• 56:04
  Thank you Mark so that's Mark Chankee people can find you prayer uh find me at uh uh Twitter under Mark Changizi also at YouTube I've got a science I just went past six hundred episodes of my science moment series on uh seeing these sorts of socio political movements but from the evolution from a perspective of sort of an evolutionary complex systems perspective thank you so much I really appreciate it great to be here that's all for today remember every myth has a solution and every truth has the power to transform your health find us on America out loud pulse radio every Friday at 5 p.m eastern or on demand wherever you get your podcasts stay curious stay informed and we'll see you next week America Allow Pulse always be to help