Latest / The Resilience Project / Uncovering Roots: A Bulgarian Adoptee's Search for Community

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Uncovering Roots: A Bulgarian Adoptee's Search for Community · The Resilience Project

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi y'all, I'm Julie.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a trauma-informed adoptee coach and somatic healing guide.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: After overcoming deep abandonment wounds, I now help adult adoptees move from feeling lost and disconnected to experiencing profound self-belonging.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: I know what it is like to carry the weight of abandonment, to feel stuck in patterns of longing, adapting, and searching for belonging.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: To have tried every healing modality available and come up empty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: My own healing has taught me this.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: The answers aren't out there.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're buried within me.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm here to guide you home to yourself.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: The Resilience Project podcast brings voice, visibility, and validation to the parts of adoption society rarely names, but all of us feel.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Through an trauma-informed somatic lens, I explore the lived experiences of the entire adoption constellation with a tender emphasis on the adoptee experience.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast goes beyond storytelling into soul telling.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: It offers embodied insight, compassionate education, and a path towards awareness, hope, and strength.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode invites listeners to understand adoption more deeply, not just with the mind, but with the nervous system.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And to reconnect with the truth, identity, and belonging that were always yours to come home to.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back, everybody, to the podcast.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to be with you today.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I know I say that every time I start the podcast, but I truly am.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was just saying to my guest that this is one of my favorite things to do.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely love this.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: So today's conversation is one that holds a lot of complexity, actually, because we're not just talking about adoption.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: We are talking about what happens when even within adoptee spaces, you still feel like you don't quite belong.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: My guest today is Nicole Quarino, and I'm hoping I'm saying your name right.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Carino.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's the Italian in me, really.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:26
  unknown: Okay.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: So Nicole is an international adoptee from Bulgaria.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Her story begins with something that I don't think we talk about enough.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: That adoption is not just a one size fits all experience.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And neither is belonging, actually.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Nicole shares what it's been like to navigate adoptee spaces and still feel a sense of isolation.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's no criticism on the adoptee spaces, it's just something we're trying to learn from.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: To search for her biological family without even having the foundational information most searches begin with, and to move through systems that aren't always set up to support international adoptees in the way that they need.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: And there's something else in this conversation that feels really important.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: The reality that healing and community aren't static.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: We grow in and out of spaces.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: What supports us supports us at one point in our journey might not support us later.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean that something is wrong.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: It means that something is evolving.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So as you listen to this conversation, I want to invite you to notice what resonates for you.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you feel connected?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you feel the tension?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: And where do you recognize the parts of your own story in Nicole's?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because this isn't just about her experience.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's about the many layers of what it means to search, to belong, and to keep moving forward even when there aren't clear answers.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get into it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Nicole.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is so good to have you.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Are you so excited?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I really am excited.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: We were just chatting before we started, and I can be pretty candid.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, are you a podcast virtue?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this is her first episode ever, and I'm just so honored to be the one that gets to ask you these questions.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I would like to know a little bit about your story as an international adoptee from Bulgaria.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Are you willing to tell us that?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I was born in Starzagora, Bulgaria.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is a couple hours from the capital, Sofia.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the number one question I get um a lot of times is where is Bulgaria?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an Eastern European country and it's gonna border Romania, Greece, the Black Sea.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was adopted um in 1998.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So just for like a little bit of perspective.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So following the fall of communism in Bulgaria, they started to see an increase in the number of children that were um institutional care.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think the demand was still high in the US.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the adoptions in Bulgaria, the bulk of the adoptions were in the mid-90s to early 2000s, from my understanding.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess from like what I know, I was relinquished at birth um and taken immediately to the orphanage.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent the next two years and four months before being adopted.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Montana and was raised as an only child, and I think I always knew that I was adopted.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um my dad happens to be a late discovery adoptee.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that, Nicole.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other layer, girl.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely is, yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that experience um really changed how we talked about adoption when I was young.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: But then as I entered elementary school, I really started to get a lot of questions.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, who is your real mom?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the that question like was repeated constantly to the point where my mom actually came to our classroom to talk about adoption.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that question really stuck with me and led to a lot of internal confusion.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it really wasn't until I read The Journey of the Adopted Self where I got clarity and more comfort in believing that both mothers are real.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really like the quote um that says the adoptive mother who cares for the child and the birth mother who never forgets their child is real.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um I kind of just found a lot of comfort in that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Surprisingly, I guess I actually had a lot of classmates that were also adopted, but we never talked about some of the feelings and what this identity carries.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I guess once I got to middle school, I think I was still really trying to live up to this narrative of being proud and grateful.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I often that was like my fun fact.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I shared, I'm adopted from Bulgaria.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think between the assumptions that would people would make about my ethnicity and having a teacher say, Well, you out of all people must be really good at speaking Spanish, I don't I don't speak Spanish.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and why would you think that?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So between the assumptions and I think being made fun of and the hurtful comments, that I really turned inward and became more reserved.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there always felt like there was something missing too.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like there was this dull ache.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't understand um why some day or like some days just like felt harder than others.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I had this belief that, you know, children that are older um and were adopted, like they maybe had like identity like struggles.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but me being adopted so young at, you know, two, uh, there's no lasting effect.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what I really needed to hear was that um eternal separation at any age has a lasting impact.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So yep, period.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it has an even bigger impact on somebody who is two, three, four, five, because they have the beginnings of language, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes there's those memories which our bodies hold.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was adopted at seven weeks, and I still had many ramifications and negative patterns in my life from those seven weeks.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: The life gap, as Lisa Ann calls it from the Wandering Tree podcast, which is what you experienced, two years, nine months.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you said?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Two years, four months.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Four months.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's a long time, Nicole, to be somewhere where you didn't actually have a parent figure.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's a long time.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so no wonder you felt a lot of these things.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: But the other thing that I think is really interesting is even in your upbringing in Montana, there were a lot of adoptees you said around you, but I wonder you you didn't have conversations with them.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: So there wasn't this I fit in with you, but even there, more than likely, you were probably different because you were adopted internationally.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it's it's funny because I don't remember, I don't remember having a, I guess, conflict with my ethnicity and um, but I knew that I was different from the kept children, but I was the only Bulgarian adopted person that was in my class.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's my point.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: So then I think there's a thread that we're finding here because you mentioned struggling to find your place even in adoptee spaces as an adoptee.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Can you share more about that?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think so, with the adoptions just being within the mid 90s, um, a lot of us are still really young.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there aren't a lot of voices right now, specifically for Bulgarian adoptees, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there's not a dedicated community space for Bulgarian adoptees.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you have South Korea and China, and there's a lot of those groups.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Vietnamese.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think, but then it's even Colombian.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, you hear yeah, it's true.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's interesting to now that I have started to do DNA tests and everything, I think ethnicity and race has those feelings have come up more.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So even in BIPOC um group settings, I don't really feel like I belong.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm white passing.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I go into these spaces.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, gosh, I remember it was one of my first adoptee spaces, and it was um a lot of adopted people from China, and I'm the only one that's Bulgarian.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Any of you, like any of you.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we are from different countries.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Belonging really was really came into question in some of those spaces.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually remember that I left that meeting early.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, today's not the day.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and let me say this: that is so okay.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how many times I have told people in the spaces that I facilitate if you don't feel comfortable or if something's not landing with you, it is totally in your right to close the computer and back away.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: You need to do what's best for you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I've loved about you since meeting you is you do that.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You take care of yourself in ways that a lot of adoptees don't feel the value within themselves to invest in themselves that way.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, in my experience, so I really appreciate that about you.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing you just said was white passing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know what that means, but can you explain that in your words for the listeners and the viewers?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I guess when I think of BIPOC, I think a lot of people think of individuals that are black and have darker skin tone.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so with my skin complexion, I do have a lighter um skin uh skin tone.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess that is what I think of when I say white passing.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically you could pass for white.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I read that.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you mean?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: And what has that felt like for you?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because that isn't the truth.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say that it really had to grapple with a lot of this this other piece of identity around race, race, and ethnicity.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: When I took my first DNA test, so my first DNA test was a gift from my adoptive parents, and it was CRI genetics.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's actually pretty amazing.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, most people, when I say CRI genetics, they're not familiar with it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And CRI genetics is one of the DNA kits that only provides percentage of your origin.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't provide any matches with other individuals.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So when I got the results back, it said that I was over 40% Italian.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I sat with that and that was where the identity struggles really started happening.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I am Italian.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I always grew up like thinking I was like Bulgarian and like Roma.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess like another word for Roma is like gypsies.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that has like a negative connotation.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anyways, so then that really started like the search process for me, and a lot of this was done in secret.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did Ancestry 23andMe, my heritage, and that was where I felt like the results felt more accurate, and none of them said that I was Italian.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I was actually saying that's cool is that your parents got it for you.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I they write I I had always talked about wanting to know my genetic makeup and every everything.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I was thankful that they had um given that to me.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But then when the anticipation and the unknown, there was a little hesitation.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was trying to be appreciative of this gift, but then I felt like I couldn't express like the hesitation that I was having around it, but I did it anyways.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, all that is understandable for sure.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So what have you felt was missing or hard to find in these communities that you have frequented?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it I think it changes.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's my thoughts on this question have changed a lot.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think right now, specifically, what I'm having a hard time with is I go into these community spaces and we talk a lot about reunion, and a lot of them are domestic stories.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the image that lives in my head, these domestic reunion stories.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then I have to take a step back and realize that's not gonna be what I am gonna have.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been really hard to find a lot of international adoptees, and then not only the spaces like just vary so much.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have your spaces that are like educational and panels are like fantastic.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens when you've like read all these books?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: You've listened to a lot of podcasts, and you're feeling drained on this identity and learning about the effects that maternal separation has and everything.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have these small intimate spaces as well.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you're not ready for that level of vulnerability, but then oh well, I will go to this gathering where there's more than 10, 20 people in the space, but then you don't really get to make those individual connections.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And but I think what I really need right now is I really am wanting those like deep connections.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess like outside of just these these spaces as well, and not just focusing on the adoption identity, but focusing on the person as a whole, because there's so much more to our adoption identity as well.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big part, and it's definitely a connecting piece.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I have made some connections though, um, and one specific connection that means a lot is a person that's adopted from Romania, and so that is really helpful to have um, you know, another adoptee that is from a country that borders your country.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I guess some comfort in that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's things that we're able to relate to as well.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sure, and I think can give you hope.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like even when Morella Sterinova Stoyanova came in to revolution and you came in and listened because she is Bulgarian and you wanted to hear from somebody that was like you, I think there's this desire.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: We recognize those moments where you were in BIPOC and you were like not that BIPOC doesn't do great things.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what we're saying at all.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: But it's when you felt that feeling of I don't fully belong here either.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so what do I do?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: There was that that feeling.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we had our conversation a couple of weeks ago, I remember thinking, because you had said, I don't feel like there's a space for this.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, well, I want to make it.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's get you on here because I just I want this to be heard because I think it's important for the whole point is to illuminate what we experience.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people don't understand it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we can increase the understanding, maybe something can develop, you know?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the other thing that came to my mind is you clearly have been a part of different communities, and you've sort of talked about this, but I'd love a little bit more articulation on it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or how have you seen yourself grow in and out of a community over time?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: What have you noticed when you grow when you grow in, you're like, this is great.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're like, yeah, this is served its purpose.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's time for me to move on.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a time that you can describe like that?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think, I think one, not having these voices shared around the struggles of finding community and growing in and out, I think in some ways has created some kind of isolation too.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess for me right now, I touched on this a little bit, but I'm really in a place where I feel like I'm drained um in learning about the identity.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't find educational presentations helpful right now.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I should clarify, I when I'm talking about community, I'm really talking about virtual spaces only.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have not attended any in-person events, so that might be very different than virtual spaces, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, nice segue, Nicole, into talking about Unmothered, which is coming up in literally a little bit less than two months, where we are going to have and you are going to experience your first in person event.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: You are our first registrant for the event.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to know what you're looking forward to from that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Goodness.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to a lot.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think really, I think there's something really powerful about in-person connection.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Virtual spaces are great, but there's just it's something really different about in-person.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really want to experience experience that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: But then sometimes like the body still feels unsettled.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's trying to, I think it's looking forward to uh hopefully being able to release some of this, some of the feelings that are still held in the body.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think the work is ever really ending.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it could be really beneficial.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think also I think there's just opportunity to really connect and have those deeper conversations that I'm looking for.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so too.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And to give you a big hug if you'll let me.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's go right back into the whole international adoption picture.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is a layer that a lot of people who are domestically adopted don't see.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to talk about it.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: What do you wish people understood about international adoption specifically that they may not?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think DNA kits are a great starting place, but I think it's also important to recognize that there's a lot of countries that don't actually authorize a lot of these popular DNA kits.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you go when you don't have this option?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's discouraging?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it I would say it is discouraging.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of in some ways, there's a little bit of privilege in some other adoptees that are able to use these DNA kits to find biological family.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it's so hard.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: So how does being a Bulgarian adoptee add a different layer to your identity and search?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna get into that a little bit more in detail, but I would love to know how being Bulgarian has impacted this for you.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Being Bulgarian in the search process?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like how that had you touched on it with what you just said.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: The government is different and all of that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: How has that really been something that has added a different layer to your own identity and your own search?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there has been waves of that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just curious.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would say for right now, what I'm really struggling with is I don't have the resources or the connections.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have been able to connect with another Bulgarian adoptee, and she lives in France.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think it's okay.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard question.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really just touches on not having the resources or connections.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas some of the other adoptees, I think that are international, they can find um, you know, those people that are also adopted from the same country and glean on each other.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess maybe even brainstorm.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh, sure.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ideas, yeah.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways, I I don't even know what they're doing because I I don't have that experience.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So and I haven't talked with those adoptees um that have those connections to see what their search process is like.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and maybe this will be heard and you will be reached out to.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: That will be my hope.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So when did you first feel the desire to search or know more about your origins?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like you knew pretty much without being told, meaning your parents didn't have to actually tell you, you just knew.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when did you know you had the desire to search?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I would say there's always been an interest in biological family.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think growing up, I really focused on my interest of finding my biological mother, but it was all, it was, they were like conversations.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: They never really talked about the reality of potentially pursuing that option.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think really what triggered my interest in searching was my aunt is a birth mother, and she is in reunion with her daughter.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've been able to form a relationship, and I think just seeing that was really something that pushed me to search.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And this is your adoptive aunt?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, yes.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I mentioned that my dad was a late discovery adoptee, and so I think I always remember him saying um he wasn't interested in connecting with biological family because they're just strangers.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think in some ways, like that perspective shaped um my thoughts and beliefs.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tucked it away and said, Oh, well, they're just strangers.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'm not interested in searching, but yeah, I here we are.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that changed.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it changed a lot.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I know you have sent me quite a detailed description of what your search journey has looked like even recently.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, not the idea of what it would look like, the reality of what you had to do and the hoops that you've had to jump through.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even when we had our call, I was like, I think if you do this, you might be able to find something, and that came up empty.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's I learned something through that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, this can be really discouraging, like I said earlier, about searching for international adoptees, but specifically Bulgarian ones.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, can you give us like what is the big picture?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: What did you do?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: All the hoops that you've had to jump through.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, yes.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I should also start off with I really haven't heard a lot of international adoptees speak about their search process and their steps.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I don't think I've really heard a lot of domestic adoptees talking about their steps either.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I'll jump into it, but just do it.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of already talked about DNA kits.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did match with a first cousin.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: He it's a first or half first cousin.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: He was also adopted, um and very minimal contact between each other.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I have also been in connection with a third cousin that lives in Hungary.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been meaningful, but didn't find any biological parents or siblings.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think the early stages in my search were really done in secret.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, looking back, I think my parents probably would have been supportive.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I if if I've learned anything, I think a lot of us do things in secret because I think we're afraid of the reactions.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much sensitivity on all sides.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I guess after the DNA kits, I reached out to my adoption agency that my parents went through asking for my non-identifying information.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Waited over six months to receive any response.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I actually CC'd a well-known adopte-evoice in that email, then got a response the next day with my documents.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So how ironic.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in that email, the adoption agency did admit that my documents were very minimal, uh, as it was still really before the Hague convention was, I don't know, enacted.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had since learned that the orphanage that I was in had shut down in June 2025.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So just this last year.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have no idea where those documents are, if they were destroyed, and the other thing that the adoption agency said that most of the documents are held in Bulgaria.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think in our conversation, didn't you find a nurse that took care of you?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Did so a lot of international adoptees that I have talked with have found biological parents through these Facebook groups.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually found the nurse that cared for me through that Bulgarian Facebook group.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I reached out to her.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also dealing with a language barrier too.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of times, I think in the bigger cities like the capital, Sofia, I think you're gonna have more people that are able to speak English.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then once you those smaller cities, I I don't think um English is known.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's another struggle that I'm having too with this language barrier is what translation app do I use?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I will tell you that Google Translate is not good for Bulgarian.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good to know.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also trying to drop um my responses in AI and um some of these other translation apps.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then each translation app reads differently.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you're sending these really intimate personal messages.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do I know that it's being translated right?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, that's crazy.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, these are challenges that I think are important to highlight.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing I remember you talking to me about is you've had some contact, I think, with the embassy, right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And with a court system of some sort having to do with your search.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so goodness.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So after I tried the Facebook Bulgarian group, didn't have any luck finding biological parents.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried posting in that Facebook group three times now.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so then after I had no luck with that, I moved on to a little email goose chase.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, that's what we're gonna go with.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um emailing the municipality, the ministry of justice, the embassy.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I think it was the Ministry of Justice, and that's where a lot of the adoptions go through.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, Ministry of Justice, and they had said that the documents are restricted and you would have to open a case.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where the court came in.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and I had also when I had posted in that Facebook group, every comment is in Bulgarian, so you're translating it, and a lot of the comments were saying open a case.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't expand them.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can you give me the how-to, please?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: So incredibly frustrating, but right now, Reese I don't know when it was, but recently, I think it was in 2023, but Bulgaria made an amendment to the family code um that would allow adoptees over the age of 18 to um open a case with the district court to provide information of your origins.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: I assume that is giving information of a biological parent's names, but I really don't have any information beyond that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the only thing as of right now that I have been advised is to seek legal representation as just the international law is I think there's a lot of unpredictability, and it's the law and how they practice law is just not well known.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it goes back to the resources and connections.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, who knows where a Bulgarian lawyer is?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's crazy because this process takes a lot of trust.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was connected with a Bulgarian lawyer, and we've communicated a little bit through Facebook Messenger, and again, translating everything.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it's also checking to see can I can I trust her?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I yeah, the trust, the trust is hard.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then she has stated, well, I won't charge you for to represent you.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, is that too good to be true?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you just don't know, right?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's hard because it's not like you have Bulgarian Google and you understand how to search and what look at reviews of this lawyer.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's to it's just a whole different thing.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I think about all of this, what has come across to me, and I I want to hear your answer, but it sounds like probably the hardest part of searching internationally is the language barrier and being able to figure out, and not only that, but you lost that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: More than likely, you spoke that for two years and four months, and you don't have that anymore.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's a whole other loss that we forget about as kept people.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a I'm not a kept person, but kept people don't think about that stuff, right?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I don't know if I'm right, if that feels like the hardest part, but would you agree, or would you have another thing that you would say is the hardest?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, yeah, the language barrier is incredibly difficult.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I have just been hit with roadblockblock.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I really don't know if there are statistics out there on the chances of international adoptees finding biological family, but I do think I would imagine that they are lower than those that are adopted domestically.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think at some point too is trying to maybe, I don't know, trying to start to process maybe that maybe I'm not gonna have this opportunity to search for biological or excuse me, I'm not gonna be able to find biological family.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then the question goes back to where are the resources um and voices that haven't been able to connect with biological family?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I even prepare for that?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's heavy stuff, the things that we navigate that people don't understand for sure.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important for us to communicate it.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: So with that in mind, what do you think people misunderstand most about how complicated this process really is?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's so much that is unknown and there's so little information to move to the next step in the search.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I did learn a little bit about Bulgarian names and how they're given.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's three components, and you have your given name, your father's name, and then family surname.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: So my birth name was um Donka Marieva Antasova.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: How did you learn that?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was in my documents that um I have had.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so Antanasova, from my understanding, is like a very common last name.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Smith in the US.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: So not only that, my parents told me that that birth name was given to me in the hospital.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but after translating my documents in Bulgarian, it said that the municipality had given it to me.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: So in that case, I was like, well, my name has no significance and is um not helpful in the search process.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Potentially.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: It might not be attached to your parent, is what you're saying.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Potentially.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, that's what I had initially thought.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I should say Marieva um and and Tanasova are female names.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the assumption with that would be the father's unknown.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess what I didn't realize was that the municipality, I think, would sometimes take the mother's name and surname if the mother was known.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like maybe I'm trying to hold on to hope for that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: How has it felt to not have access to foundational information like names or dates?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredibly discouraging, and I feel like there is a lot of despair.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was connected with a searcher in Bulgaria actually through the TIES program.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was connected with someone in Bulgaria.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is a resource that was given to me by someone in the community.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I can trust this.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's hope.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next um, after sending all my documentation and everything, I get a response back saying you don't have the foundation details to even start a search.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have the mother's or father's name or birth dates.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, gee, I would not be reaching out if I had that information.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's so frustrating.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's oh my goodness.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot to process, and I don't know.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I hope in sharing this experience is having like other international adoptees feel less alone.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not even an exhaustive list.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the amount of information you sent me in your messages was prolific.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: You've done so much.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you just talked about this, the emotional impact, this journey that you've been on to search has been despairing, discouraging.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I guess my next question is has it changed how you see yourself and your own story?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in one of the adopte spaces that I have been, I was asked something along the lines of if I was if there were any benefits of coming out of the fog.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or coming into consciousness, whatever whatever terminology people want to use.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: How has searching changed how you see yourself in your story?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess there's I definitely know um myself more, and I would not go back into the fog.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I really can't imagine a life not knowing myself to the extent that I do right now.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: There still, of course, is a lot of questions, and I hope I get those answers.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I think that's really good.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know yourself.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like you're you're grateful for the relationship you have with yourself now, and I love that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: At least that's what it sounds like to me.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: So there's some current updates that have happened to your story that I want to bring up that I was like, oh, I hope she didn't bring it up until I can actually ask the question.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a new thing that recently happened that you mentioned you may have found a sister.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: So can you share what that's been like for you?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: So after waiting to find legal representation, I think I did it out of spite and um was like, well, gosh darn it, I'm just gonna try posting in this Facebook um Bulgarian group again.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because everyone else keeps finding biological family this way.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And going into it, I was very much more prepared that I would receive insensitive comments from lots of people, but I I actually had someone reach out that is a potential sister.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she said that she's been looking for her sister for four years now.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Communication, there are things that have aligned with the information that I know and the information she knows.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: From my understanding, she was 11 or 12 when the baby was placed for adoption.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I always knew that I had siblings.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have a document that says that I was um 10th birth, eighth delivery.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it maybe there was missed a couple miscarriages, I guess is what I was assuming.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I always felt really confused on well, how are the biological parents unknown if I have this document stating that it was the eighth delivery?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've held on to that hope of having siblings.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a really big interest of connecting with those siblings, and there are still some things that we're a little iffy on.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like I would be, if this is my biological family, um, that I would be the ninth child, not the eighth.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's hard.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, I've been hit with like roadblock after roadblocks.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes like the hope um is very small.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's a lot it's a lot to process.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's also, I think society almost teaches us to be very guarded um in going into these relationships.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my thought process has been don't disclose what I do for work.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm a budget analyst.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if I disclose that, then would she be like more inclined to um ask for money?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's always this thought that they're gonna take advantage of you, I think domestically or nationally.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: But that is something we share.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, it's reverse.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: Even the birth families sometimes think that we would take advantage of them some way financially.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good comment or a good statement.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think I don't know why the separation occurred.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, I respect that she has not shared that with me because if that's not my story, that's a lot to hold.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: So she doesn't until she knows for sure.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, what emotions are coming up for you as you sit in this possibility?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's obviously a language barrier here as well, right?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so what are the next steps with this?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: As of right now, next step is to have her.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: She said she is interested in doing a blood test.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is is the translation working?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds pretty clear to me.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: I guess maybe there's the option of a DNA kit and sending a DNA kit.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have I haven't really even thought about how I would approach it, but right now I'm waiting for her to speak with her mother.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um which could potentially be your mother.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then I it's it's over, it's overwhelming because like there's like a little bit of excitement, fear, and you're getting your hopes up.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's, am I ready for this?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what I want?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is this even gonna look like long term?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like connections, relationships take so much work.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so do I want this added layer of I mean, deep down, I really do.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: But those are some of the thoughts that have been of course coming.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it makes a lot of sense.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's it's important, especially for those international adoptees that are in the search mode as well.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, looking back, how would you say all of this has helped you grow, even through both isolation and the searching, meaning feeling the isolation and the searching?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say has helped you grow the most or how have you grown?
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think I have a lot more confidence in myself.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that I have really learned the importance of self-care.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think right now, um, what I'm trying to think about is if all these reunions that are stories that are centered around domestic adoptions, maybe I need to take a step back from community.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's hard to say because these experiences should create connection and help us become closer.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: But in some ways, it creates more loneliness sometimes.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't think we always talk about that boundary of taking a step back.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, community doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's maybe that extra self-care right now in when you notice that feeling of loneliness, when you notice that feeling of isolation.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say the next question I was gonna ask you is what has helped you stay grounded?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like self-care, taking the time to listen to what you need.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: And like in that situation with BIPOC, just stepping away and realizing this is making me more discouraged and feeling more alone that I entered, and that's not good for me right now.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Does that sound accurate?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: So speaking to other adoptees about this, okay, for other adoptees who feel similarly as you, they don't fully belong in adoptee spaces, what would you want them to know?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I think the biggest thing that I have learned is that we our voices range very, very, very much.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have people that believe that adoption should be abolished.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have, I don't know, the opinions are just all over the board.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: They are so broad spectrum.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: While I think all our voices are important, I think it's really important to just be like intentional and follow those voices that do feel safe and supportive.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's definitely something that I have found.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: I for those that there's some voices that are lot louder, more opinionated.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, truthfully, those voices scare me a little bit.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing wrong with them, and I have grown to I've grown to like understand them, their voices a little bit more, and it's a little bit easier to listen to, but I still try to steer away from them.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: So again, yeah, I think just really being intentional and acknowledging that it's okay not to follow every adopte-e voice.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very, very good advice, actually.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: So for those who are in the middle of a search, like you are, honestly, or maybe they're even afraid to start, what would you say to them?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think every experience is so unique and it's gonna be different for everyone.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's hard to speak to to speak to that.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I think what I like really needed to hear was it's like okay to be interested in searching and by searching like in secret, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing wrong with you for wanting that.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I like that.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's what well, interestingly, the next question I was gonna ask, and I wonder if this is a part of it, is and this is the last question, I was gonna tie everything up in a bow here, but if you could sit with the version of you who's first started searching, what would you say to her now?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Coming with the tough questions.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, girl.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's why I said, would it be something like that that we just said, you know?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or would it be something different?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because you said you did it in secret.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: So would you tell her it's okay to search?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think that's great.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: The early stages were done in secret, right?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: And since then my parents are involved and are aware of what I've done.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's hard, right?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay if you don't know.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay if you don't know.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you're just not maybe you're not there yet.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you don't know what you tell that version of you.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's too soon to know that.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just leave it with letting people know there's nothing wrong with you.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to search.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't have to do it in secret.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Nicole, thank you so much for your openness and willingness to share your story in such an honest way.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know it can feel kind of jolted and hard, but there's so much that I think in this conversation is going to land deeply with other international adoptees.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those that specifically don't feel like they fit in anywhere, fully fit anywhere, even within spaces that are meant for them.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of a big deal for you that you're realizing.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're listening or watching and you resonated with Nicole's experience, I just want to say this.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: You're clearly not alone in that feeling.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: So not fitting neatly into a space doesn't mean you don't belong, which is one of my biggest things, belonging.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: It may just mean that your story holds layers that aren't always represented in those spaces.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that matters.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: Nicole also has shared vulnerably about her own search journey and how complex and frustrating and uncertain it has been, especially because she's an international.dee.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're in that space right now, we see you.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole reason why we're here talking about it.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of courage in continuing to search even when there aren't clear paths or guarantees.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to connect with Nicole and follow her journey or support what she's doing, I will have her information in the show notes.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: Forgot to ask her if that was okay, but I'm pretty sure she's okay with that.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Nicole.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, if something in this conversation stirred something in you, I'd love to hear from you too.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_02: You guys know you can reach out to me on any of the socials.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Just DM me, it's me who's gonna be chatting with you, and I love that.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or just sit with what came up and spend time with that and be compassionate with yourself with it.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing I would say is you don't have to have the answers right away.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: You don't.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not ready, you're not ready.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes just allowing the questions to exist for a bit is part of the work.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just really glad that you decided to be here with us this Thursday.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: The only other thing I want to say is if you found this helpful and think of somebody that it could also help, I would love to invite you to share it with that person.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: I would also love it if you could like, comment, review, and share the podcast with those that you think it can help as well.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: Nicole, thank you so much for being here with us.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to be able to share this with everybody.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we will talk to you soon.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Bye!