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Transcript

One in Infinity · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: exactly right Media.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: I hear screaming, and I hear his aunt say Justin,
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, Justin, and I mean it just slow motion.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Knife.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith. Today we have a
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: story from Jessica Ayers and Paytia. You actually did this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: interview solo because I was out of town, but I
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: was blown away when I listened to it. Jessica tells
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: you about how she became a widow at an unusually
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: young age.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jessica, who goes by Jess, and her husband, Justin
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: were building their life together when an unexpected tragedy occurred
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: that took Justin's life, and there was a criminal investigation
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: and court proceedings, And this all happened now almost twelve
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: years ago, but jess is still unraveling the ripple effects
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: of what took place that day.
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  Speaker 1: Let's get into the interview.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, my name is Jessica Ayres, but I go by
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Jess and I have an online presence called The Singing Widow.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I live in the Florida pan Handle, beautiful white sandy beaches.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: It's very southern here. I don't know if I have
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: an accent, but I may maybe a hint. Some people
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: tell me I do. I don't hear it. I am
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: currently a intern therapist, while I will be graduating in
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: May with my masters in Mental health counseling, and then
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: I will open my private practice after that.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Jess is also a singer, thus her blogs title The
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Singing Widow. It's a place where she's been able to
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: share her story, a story that starts way back in
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: middle school, when Jess met someone who would change the
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: course of her life.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I got really involved in my youth group. To anybody
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: who doesn't know, youth group is like the teenage church
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: group that you get involved in, and that is where
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I met Justin. So. He was this cute. He was
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: older than me. I was in eighth grade. He was
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: in eleventh grade. Obviously that age gap is not a
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: big deal when you get older, but it seemed like
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: a bigger age gap at the time at.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: That time, like eleventh graders when I was in eighth grade,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: like they had beards, you know, like whoa.
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  Speaker 3: Whoa, yeah, and he was so cute. He had long
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: red hair, and he was like a really good looking redhead.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: I'll just put that out there, like big fold, long
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: red hair. He was a guitar player, and he was
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: the funniest person I had ever met in my entire life.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: So what's funny is even though I knew he was
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: a good guitar player and he played in the church
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: and like he was a shredder, like you just have
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: to think about it like that, it was his sense
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: of humor that first made me notice him because he
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: said something. He like laughed at a joke I said,
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: and he made a joke, and that was it. I
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: was like, this is the funniest, cutest guy I've ever seen.
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  Speaker 2: You guys just had this instant connection.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: I was connected to him. But what's funny is he
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: thought I was too young for him at first, which
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe I was flag yeah, and he was like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: I think she's too young. But I flirted with him,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: and then yeah, we went on this like a choir tour.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: We used to go around, Like I told you, I
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: was really heavy into church, so we would go and
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: sing at all these churches all over the country and
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: that was when we fell in love.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And so when did you guys start dating?
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: We started dating that summer. My mom, because he was
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  Speaker 3: a Christian boy at our church, would let me date him.
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  Speaker 3: He was driving, but she wouldn't let me ride with
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  Speaker 3: him in the car. So she would drive me and
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: like let me meet with him. But like, I don't
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  Speaker 3: think he took me on my first like day until
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  Speaker 3: I mean I was in eighth grade. That's really young
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  Speaker 3: to be dating. So we fell in love between my
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  Speaker 3: it's so young. But we fell in love the summer
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  Speaker 3: like between my seventh and eighth grade year. And I
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  Speaker 3: went back to school that year in eighth grade, and
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  Speaker 3: I just I hated life. I didn't want to be
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  Speaker 3: a kid. I grew up way too fast. I was
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  Speaker 3: in love. I knew I was going to marry him,
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  Speaker 3: and I was fourteen, Like right.
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  Speaker 2: It's like at fourteen, what do we know? Well, maybe
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  Speaker 2: more than we realized.
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  Speaker 3: I mean yeah, and he loved me, and I just
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  Speaker 3: knew I was going to marry him. And people were like, oh, whatever,
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  Speaker 3: this is just teen romance or foremons and mind you,
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  Speaker 3: like we weren't having sex. I was goodie goodie Christian
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  Speaker 3: girl doing that till I get married. So yeah, we
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: were like in love and our hormones were there, but
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  Speaker 3: like we weren't having sex, like we were wholesome teenage couple.
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  Speaker 3: We really were.
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  Speaker 2: When Justin graduated and went off to college, he and
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Jess continued dating. Their relationship was not the stereotypical breakup
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  Speaker 2: and get back together a teenage love story. Theirs was study.
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  Speaker 2: It was easy. They wrote letters to each other and
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  Speaker 2: Jess said that she just knew this was the person
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  Speaker 2: that she was going to marry. And maybe a lot
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  Speaker 2: of first loves feel that way, but Jess and Justin
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  Speaker 2: were for real. Looking back now, I have to wonder
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: if maybe something inside of them knew how quickly life
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: could change that their time together would be cut short.
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  Speaker 3: And I mean to like fast forward the story. I
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: was engaged my senior year of high school. Of high school, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, so he proposed while you were a senior in high.
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  Speaker 3: School he did. I did also graduate early, so I
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: graduated like at Christmas time. I graduated, walked to the
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  Speaker 3: stage with an engagement ring, and then we were married
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  Speaker 3: a year and a half later. Got married in two
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  Speaker 3: thousand and three, the first couple of years, he was
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: teaching guitar lessons, he was playing in a band, and
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  Speaker 3: then finally he needed a singer and I was like,
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  Speaker 3: can I try? He was like sure. So really that
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: was where our life took off. Was like, our entire
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: marriage was centered around our music career, and I was
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  Speaker 3: like band manager, booked all the gigs. We were just
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  Speaker 3: like this team. He was the guitar player, I was
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  Speaker 3: the singer, and we were this team. And that was
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  Speaker 3: our life. I mean, our life just centered around music
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  Speaker 3: and gigging and making it big, you know, that type
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  Speaker 3: of thing. We had one of those relationships that I
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  Speaker 3: don't know, people thought we were special, and I thought
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  Speaker 3: we were special. He was just I don't even know
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  Speaker 3: how to say it, Like he was the kind of
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: like husband and like man that like people just loved
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  Speaker 3: to be around. Like he was so infectious and kind
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  Speaker 3: and loving and just amazing.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: For the next ten years, Jess and Justin were traveling,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: playing music together. They were living their dream. It wasn't
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: an easy way to make a living, but they were happy.
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  Speaker 2: But in twenty thirteen, Jess started feeling a new dream
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  Speaker 2: taking shape.
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  Speaker 3: I had a very distinct moment where I was singing
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  Speaker 3: at a gig. It was a casino gig, so it
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: was a good gig. I know, Facebook's not like a
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: thing now, but like it was, and I remember scrolling
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  Speaker 3: and everybody on my friends group was like posting their
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: like back to school photos of their kids and like, oh,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: so and so back to school today, and they're like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: you know, everybody still does that today, like post the
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: back to school photos. And I just felt like this emptiness.
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  Speaker 3: I was like I don't have that, and like I
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  Speaker 3: really want that. Like it was like weird. We were
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  Speaker 3: living the dream at the time, like full time musicians.
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  Speaker 3: I was looking at it like this crowd and I
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  Speaker 3: was like, I just want to be a mom.
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  Speaker 2: Like it just hit you. You're like I need this in
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  Speaker 2: my life.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. We always plan to wait until like we were
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: in our thirties, and it was just a moment I
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: was like, Okay, I'm ready. I mean, we got right
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  Speaker 3: to it and we did buy a house and then
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: we moved in and I was pregnant maybe two months
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  Speaker 3: after we moved into the house.
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  Speaker 2: This was September of twenty thirteen. Jess and Justin had
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: been married just the two of them for a decade.
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  Speaker 2: They had all the normal concerns about having a baby,
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  Speaker 2: but mostly they were excited.
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  Speaker 3: Justin had one love in life, you know, besides me,
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  Speaker 3: and it was music, and I was like, well, how
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  Speaker 3: are we going to balance like this music life with
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: being parents. The atmosphere doesn't really work in well. So,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: like we came up this plan. We were still going
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  Speaker 3: to be booking gigs and after I had the baby,
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  Speaker 3: fourth of July was going to be my first gig back,
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  Speaker 3: and my mom was gonna come with us. And I
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  Speaker 3: don't know how we were going to work it all out,
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  Speaker 3: but that was probably the biggest fear, just like financial
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  Speaker 3: and career stuff. We found out around Christmas time we
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  Speaker 3: were having a boy, which is what we both wanted,
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  Speaker 3: not like we wouldn't have loved a girl, but we
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  Speaker 3: knew that, like Justin's last name, he was the last
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: person to be able to carry on his last name. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: it was really like a legacy thing, like if we
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: have a girl, she'll get married and change her name
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  Speaker 3: possibly one day, and she won't carry on the last name.
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  Speaker 3: So we were really excited to get a boy and
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: finally agreed on a name. Because people don't realize how
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: hard that is to agree on a name with yourself.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: It can be hard. What name did you pick?
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  Speaker 3: So we agreed on Jack's Jax. We ended up naming
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: name Jackson but short for Jacks, which is really popular now,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: but at the time, like nobody had that name. The
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: day he was born was a long day. It was
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: literally a twenty two hour delivery, and I had had
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: like a leakage, and so I had to get admitted
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: to the hospital because there was like, you know, it
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: could be infected or whatever if you don't get yourself
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: in a safe place. They gave me the potocin was
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: not progressing. It was rough. I thought we were gonna
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: have to do a C section. But finally I got
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: some type of like medicine to help me sleep. And
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: I literally was a course of like thirty minutes, like
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: progressed from like a two to a nine. So I
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: got the epidural pushed for two hours, not fun. Finally
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: he came out. I had a complication. My placenta would
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: not detach, so it was stuck. So it took them
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: two hours of pushing and then two more hours of
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: pulling the placenta out of me. And I lost a
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: lot of blood. It could have been dangerous if I
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: wasn't in the hospital.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: What is it like for Justin in the hospital? Was
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: he nervous, excited or how was he feeling watching this
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: all happen. I mean, zillions of births have happened before
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: us and will happen after us. But for each person,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: it's this unique experience. It's life changing and it is
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: a very serious medical event. What was it like for him?
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now you're getting like my eyes for getting watery.
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: I have never seen the look on his face. I
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: don't know. I know everybody says it, but like he
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: was just grinning from ear to ear. It's kind of funny,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: but like, well that's not really funny. But when they
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: were like trying to pull the pluscent out of me,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: I remember like looking over, like where is Justin? I'm
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: dealing with all of this, And I looked over and
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: he's holding Jack's and he's just got to smile on
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: his face, and like Oblivia says, to what's going on
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: with me? And I was just like hello over here,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: like I was your priority for all these years. But
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: you can't blame him. He just became a dad, Like
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: he was always a good person, but he was just
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: changed in that moment when he became a dad. It
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: was beautiful. We were in the hospital an extra day
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: because of my complication, so we were there for three
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: days the day he was born, and then an additional two days.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: I was wanting to breastfeed and it was going okay,
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: and Justin was just trying to do everything he could
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: to be helpful and just be sweet, and he was
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: just so excited and it was it was good, but
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: we were just ready to go home.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: It's nice to have the access to obviously medical professionals,
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: but breastfeeding resources, but there's nothing like the comfort of
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: your own home after going through something like that.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I had to have like seventy something stitches,
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: Like it was a lot. It was basically to sew
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: me back up Jack's when he came out, he came
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: out at a weird angle and he ripped me like.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, wow, I'm sorry. That is tough.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was why I had to stay longer, too.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Was for that. I was in a lot of pain,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: new mom hormones, you know, trying to breastfeed, trying to
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: keep up, no sleep, Jess.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: And Justin couldn't wait to get home with their new baby,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Jack's and began making new memories and figuring out life
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: as a family of three.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: It was amazing and like, I feel like we always
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: have these like pivotal moments.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Pivotal moments, and moments were all that Jess, Justin, and
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Jacks would have together. Jess and I spoke about these
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: moments in great detail. They're important. They're the moments just
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: before everything changed.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: I remember, like, you know, they will you out, and
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Justin pulled the car up and we got in the
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: car and the radio was on, but like we weren't
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: like changing the radio stations, but like the radio was
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: on from like when Justin had gotten out of the
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: car to go see the birth or whatever. And the
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: song changed as we're driving and we are the Champions
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: came on the radio and we were driving home. Yeah,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my gosh, because like I
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: rode in the backseat with the baby. I don't know,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: it's such a special moment, like we did this, like
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: we're gonna be good. And his mom actually stayed the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: night with us to help out because I was like
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: really like insistent on justin getting some sleep. I knew
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna get sleep anyway because I had to nurse,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: and I was like, he needs to get some sleep,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: but like I probably need some help. So his mom
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: volunteered to come and stay with us. And I know
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: it's really weird, but like we watched Game of Thrones
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: that night, like we had missed the last episode, and
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: he was like, do you want to watch this episode together?
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: I was like sure, like halfway asleep, you know, holding
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: the baby, and I do remember watching it. And I
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: only bring it up because I remember watching it. It
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: was like this really dark episode. I know that's so
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: can get dark anyway, but it was a darker episode
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: and I just remember watching it and feeling like very uncomfortable,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: and I was just like I do I'm not ready
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: for this, Like I just gave birth and I have
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: this baby in my arms, like I don't want to
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: watch this darkness. But we watched it and then that
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: night I have anxiety. Who doesn't have anxiety these days?
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: But I have a lot of like bad health anxiety.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: It's been something I was just like dealt with for
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: a while, but because of my complications, I was not handling,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: like the stitches. Well, I was really nervous that something
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: was wrong. I was like, they probably didn't get all
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: the placenta out. I'm going to get sepsis. All of
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: these worries were going through my head and when you
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: go home, like we wanted to go home, but then
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: we were home and I was like, well, no, nobody
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: can see if I'm okay. So I was nervous about that.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: I was crying to Justin and his mom's holding the
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: baby and we were in the bathroom and I was like,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: I just feel like something's wrong, and he was like, well,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I know why you feel that way. I was like why.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: He was like, well, because you have a child, and
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: like you're worried something's going to happen to you. And
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I was like, well, yeah, but something could happen, Like
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I was trying to explain, like but I am not.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Well He's like, well, I just wanted you to know that,
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: like I've felt nervous the whole time that something was
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: going to happen to me, But now I feel better
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: and the babies here and I know everything's going to
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: be okay. And he really like brought me down in
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the moment and calmed me down, and that was a
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: good moment between us. Day two home, which is actually
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: day one home because we weren't home in the day
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: on day one. We basically got home at like eight
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: o'clock at night and spent the night and then started
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: the next day. And we had to get into our pediatrician,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: like that was number one on the list because I
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: had a specific pediatrician I wanted to see. She was
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: like a natural pediatrician I read. She was supportive of breastfeeding,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: doesn't push formula, you know new mom stuff. You're like,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: I got to have the perfect one. So she was
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: going out of town and wasn't going to be able
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: to see us unless we came in that day. And
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: so that day I had to sit on a boppy
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: pillow in the waiting room because I could hardly sit
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: down because of my stitches. And we got to see
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: the doctor and Jack's had a blowout in the doctor's office,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: so Justin had to leave the doctor's office. He was like, no,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: my baby is not meeting because we of course we
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: weren't prepared. We didn't have anything to change the baby
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: intwo and Justin's like, my son is not meeting his
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: pediatrician naked, So I'm going to go to Walmart and
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: get a onesie. So he goes to Walmart gets this
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: onesie and then we met the pediatrician and it was great,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: like we loved her and she was amazing, and then
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: we went home. I think my mom went with us
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: to the pediatrician and we had said goodbye to his
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: mom that morning, and then my mom went with us
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: pediatrician and then we got back and we're like had
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: a couple of hours alone to just spin together, and
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: it was so special. Justin was spoiled when he was
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: a kid, like his mom did everything for him, so
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: he wasn't like the kind of guy to like just
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: start doing laundry. I've never seen him do so much
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: laundry in my life. Was like watching all the babies closed.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Bring home.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's our first full day home and we had
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: plans that night for family to come meet the baby.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: So he had some family from out of town. His
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: aunt and his cousin were there on his dad's side.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: His parents were divorced, so it was like his dad's
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: side of the family that was coming over, and then
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: my family and his aunt and cousin came over, I
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: don't remember what time it was and started hanging out
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: with us before the family was going to get there.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: So I want to say, like three o'clock in the
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: afternoon or something like that. So I was just spending
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: the day trying to catch up on sleep and nursing
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: and you know, kind of hanging out with people. And
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: he was like socializing and holding the baby and they were,
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: you know, passing the baby around. So his aunt and
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: cousin are there, and then his stepmom comes over and
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't know what time this was, but
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: they were going to pick up food and we were
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: just hanging out on the couch and I was just
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: in such a daze. So I had just taken a nap,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: and then I got up and I came out to
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: like see what's going on. And they were all chatting
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: and they were talking about going to get the food
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: for everybody that was coming over, which would be there
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: pretty soon, I don't know, like twenty minutes from then.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: So we're literally sitting there having a conversation about whatever
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: they're talking about, and his aunt looks at her watch
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: and she's like, oh, crap, I got to go pick
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: up the food. So she stands up, and I'm sitting
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: on the couch and so she's like across from me,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and his cousin is holding Jack's parallel to me in
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: a rocking chair. And she stands up. She says, I
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: got to go get the food, and Justin says, I'll
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: go with you so you don't have to do everything
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: by yourself. She's like, no, no, no, it's okay, and he's like, no, no, no,
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I want to go. When he stands up, he says, no,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: it's okay, and literally that was the moment that everything changed.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: He had literally just stood to his feet, and we
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: heard a pop. Like I don't know how it really
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: else to explain it. Then for all of us, it
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: sounded like it was the glass that we heard, So
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: we heard like a popping glass sound, And people that
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: haven't been in a chaotic, traumatic situation, it's so hard
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: to explain that. When things start happening, there's so much
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: confusion that you're just trying to almost figure out what's
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: going on. And you know, it all happened so quickly,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and I immediately looked over to my left where his
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: cousin was holding my child and I looked over, like,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: what was that Is he okay? And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: the baby's fine. You know, she's holding the baby. And
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: then my attention was over here. And then I hear
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: out of this ear, I hear screaming, and I hear
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: his aunt say Justin, Oh my god, Justin, and I mean,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: just slow motion right. It's like, I don't know if
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: anybody's ever had one of those dreams where you're trying
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: to run in the dream and you cannot, like your
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: feet feel like they're concreted to the ground. And that
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: was how I felt. I felt like I was trying
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: to move but I couldn't move, Like it was like,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: what's happening. I fell on the ground because they said
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: get down. So I don't know even at what point
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: we realized it was a gunshot, but we thought we
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: were like it was a drive by shooting or something like.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I didn't live in a bad neighborhood, but we thought
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: we were under fire. So we're crawling on the ground
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: on our stomachs. Next thing I know, actually I wasn't
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: on the ground yet. I got shoved into the bedroom.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Somebody shoved me into the bedroom. Get over here, and
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Like,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: and I'm like I need to see Justin and they're
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: like no, no, no, no, you don't need to see Justin.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, yes, I need to see Justin. And
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: I'm like fighting as hard as I can. Well, this
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: is where like this slow motion happened, And so I
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: fought myself away and start crawling on my stomach over
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: to his body.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: And when did you realize that Justin had been shot?
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: It took a minute, Like I don't know. I mean
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: it literally did not process in my brain until I
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: don't know thirty minutes later of what really happened when
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the cops were there and everything. But I mean I
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: just kept saying, what happened, what happened, what happened, Like
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: what happened, what happened? What happened, like just kind of
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: repeating that over and over again, like what's going on?
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: What's going on? And nobody really knew what was going on.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: You have to keep in mind too, I was very medically,
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: like vulnerable. I wasn't supposed to be like doing a
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: lot physically, and I just I was violent, Like you
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: have to think about like me violently breaking away from
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: my family members, like, get the f off of me,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I'm going over to my husband. So I crawled over
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: to him. They finally let me and obviously didn't know
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: what I was doing for a pulse, But like, I'm
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: one of those people too that like I'm afraid to look,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: but I want to look. And I just remember like
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: crawling and trying to look, but like being afraid. So
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: it's not like I ran over and started shaking his body,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: because I didn't have the courage to do that. I
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: only had the courage to like climb as far as
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: I could see to where I was next to him,
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: but not like on top of him, and I saw
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: his lips. I could see his face, and his lips
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: were like white, like no life in them. That was
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: all I needed to see. Somebody grabbed me and pulled
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: me back into the bedroom.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: At that point, just three short days after the birth
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: of their son, Justin had died in the living room
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of the home he'd planned to raise his family in.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: It didn't make any sense. Justin had been shot in
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the head, but why and by who. Local police were
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: arriving in a crime scene at the same time that
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: unknowing family members were arriving to meet the baby. Just
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: said that she was so distraught her father had to
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: physically restrain her.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: What's going on? Is my husband dead? Like I just
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: had a child? Like what? And so my dad had
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: to I was so strong. He had to pin me
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: down on the bed and get on top of me
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: and like restrain my wrists and put his knees on
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: my legs because he said I was running into the
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: wall that I was. I don't remember this. He said,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I was just running full fledged into the wall, trying
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: to get out of the room, and nobody would let
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: me out, and I was just losing my mind.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there aren't words for what you experienced
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: that day. So to make sure that I have the
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: timeline of events correct. You're all sitting there. Your aunt's
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: gonna go get food, Justin insists on helping. Justin has
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: shot chaos. Your cousin is holding Jack's and you are
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: pushed into another room.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, our master bedroom by his aunt. Yes. Actually by
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: this point his aunt had the baby and it was
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: his cousin that pushed me into the room.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, and so you're pushed into the room, but you
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: break free, you crawl over so that you can see
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: justin on some level your understanding that he has died. Yeah,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and you know who could ever fully process that in
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: a moment so chaotic. But well, all of this is happening.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: You guys are wondering if someone's shooting at you. Everyone's
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: on the ground afraid. Your dad comes in the back door,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: is filled in on what's happening, and then pulls you
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: back into the room and restrain. Meanwhile, a cop is
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: arriving and other family members are also arriving.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, the cop got there pretty quick, and an ambulance
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: was called, and I calmed down at some point. I
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: don't know what happened, but like they eventually did sedate me.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: They gave me something to calm me down, some type
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of shot of something, but not yet. So I eventually
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: kind of like, I don't know what happened, but I
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: think Jack's was crying, and my mother instinct kicked in
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: and I was like, I need to feed my child.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: So I'm like sitting back there by myself in the
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: bedroom nursing my son while everybody else is in the
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: living room, and I'm just like shaking my head like
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what was happening, and I heard someone
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: outside of the door say he has a pulse. Like
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: I said, I didn't know how to check for a pulse,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: so I couldn't tell them they were wrong. And so
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: in that moment when I heard he had a pulse,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: I had this glimmer of like hope, and I thought like, Okay,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: maybe I'm wrong, maybe everything's okay. And all of these
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: scenarios started playing out of my head as I'm nursing,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: and I thought, well, maybe he's going to be paralyzed.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: We'll find our way. Maybe he won't never be able
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: to play guitar again, but we'll have each other, like
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: for better or for worse. Like I just started like
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: playing out all these scenarios of like him living but
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: being disabled and whatever, like he's just gonna be alive.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: It's gonna be okay. And then the door opens and
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: a police officer comes in and he had this look
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: on his face and I just knew it. I just
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: knew by the look on his face. And so they
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: were like, Jessica, wi you you know, hand me the baby,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: you know, because I'm I'm not gonna like cry talking
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: about but I'm holding my three day old baby, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: so I handed him over and I just knew it.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: He said, your husband is deceased. That was the words
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: he said. God, Like, I feel like I would have
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: rather heard him say your husband is dead. I don't
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: know why, like the word deceased, Like.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Maybe it sounds so like matter of fact or official.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, it does, because it's like the medical term.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the medical term.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And like I don't ever use that word, but
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I know what it means. And I forgot to mention too.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: There's so much that was happening. But before the officer
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: came in, I heard this loud, gasping, screaming, bellowing, adult
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: male crying out in the other room. And Justin's stepmother
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: was in the room with me at that point, and
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: I said, what is that? Like I thought it was
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: justin coming to That was like another glimmer of hope
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: I had. I was like, what is that? And his
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: stepmom said, that's just Steve Honey, which that was his dad.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: So I literally heard his dad come into the room
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: with his son there dead. But after the officer told
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: me he's deceased, I lost my mind, understandably so, but
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I was just fighting, you know, no this isn't real.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I just I didn't want to be alive anymore. Everything
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: was going through my head. Now I have this baby
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: and my husband's dead. I was just like, what the fuck?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Like that was going through my mind. And that was
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: when they had to sedate me because I was so upset,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: and my dad and my mom and my mom got
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: there at that point had to get on top of
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: me to hold me down. The adrenaline was so hi.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I imagine you were also at risk
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of tearing the stitches and causing yourself injury in that way.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: Miraculously, I did not harm myself at all. I have
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: no idea how that worked out in my favor.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Jessin Justin lived on a quiet cul de sac. It
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: felt safe and it should have been well. Jess was
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: inside the house, her mind racing, her body filled with adrenaline.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Police were outside searching for the source of the gun shot,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and two hundred yards behind the house they found it.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: It was like this nice little cult de sac we
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: lived on. There was all of these trees, and then
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: behind all these trees was this like little house that
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: wasn't a part of this cul de sac that was
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: built and that's where this man was staying, and he
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: had fired a nine millimeter gun and they found him
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: standing on his front porch because they knew where the
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: bullet came in, so they immediately were on the scene
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: trying to figure out, okay, well where did it come from?
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: And they found him and he was standing out there,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: and he tried to run away because he knew and
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: they caught him and beat him up.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: What did he know?
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: He knew he had shot a gun and it had
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: obviously hurt somebody. I don't know that he knew at
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: that point it had killed somebody, but he knew that
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: there was cops there. He had fired a gun. He
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: was also like he was a drug addict. He tested
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: positive for meth. He was drunk, His blood alcohol level
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: was really high. We lived in a nice neighborhood, like
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: it was a nice little cult to sec It was
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: just this weird house that was back there. I actually
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: knew he was there because I had seen him before,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: but I didn't think anything of him. I just thought, like,
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: he's just some old man that rides his bike.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, you know, someone suffering from addiction doesn't
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: necessarily mean they're dangerous, No, and so he understood that
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: he had fired a gun and that someone had likely
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: been shot because there's police, there's an ambulance. Did he
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: say why he had fired a gun?
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: He did say he told the cops. I'm going to
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: kind of quote him a little bit. I'm pretty sure
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: the quote was, I usually can't even squeeze the damn trigger,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: but this time it just barely went off. Basically was
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: saying it was an accident, which is a munch of bullshit.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: The cops have been called over to his house before
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: there was police reports we found out of the cops
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: being called over there. Keep in mind we hadn't lived
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: there very long. It had been not even like eight
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: months since we had lived there. I remember I had
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: texted Justin one time because we had a little Jack
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: Russell terrier and he had like thunder anxiety, so anytime
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: like loud noises would happen, our little Jack Russell would
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: like get all nervous and start shaking. And I remember
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: texting Justin when I was pregnant, like, there's that noise again,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and it was a loud, like popping noise, like and
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I know now it was a gun, and he was
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: like target practice shooting or whatever.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: So incredibly dangerous, so reckless.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: But the cops had been called over there, they did nothing,
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: and he just told them, oh, it's just fireworks. They
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: did not even do an investigation into why he was
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: in that house. And he should have been arrested and
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: not been there anyway, because it was legal and he
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: was a felon.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And I want to get into like what we know
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: about him now. But at the time, you're at home,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: but they've offered you some sedation and Justin his body
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: is taken away, you know, having a new baby that
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: you're nursing, how does one spend the next however long
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: because a nursing baby requires constant attention, you know, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: you can't just hand them over and go to the
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: hospital or wherever he was taken.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say, like my commitment to nursing was
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: really strong before I had my child, Like I was
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: one of those people that like knew I wanted to nurse,
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: like it was important to me. And then after Justin died,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: it was hard, so already hard part of nursing in
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: addition to feeling like I didn't want to exist, But
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: it eventually became my focus because it was something I
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: could focus on besides just being sad. So eventually, like
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: that became my first purpose, I would say, was nursing
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: my child. Because I felt like my whole life had
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: been taken away from me. I had no control over anything,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: and that was one thing I could control. It was hard,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: but I became really committed to nursing, and it was,
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: like I would say, like part of the reason why,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Like it saved me from being too depressed or suicidal
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: or whatever. We learned that he was illegally squatting in
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: the house. He was a convicted felon. I don't even
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: know what he was convicted of. He illegally had the gun.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: Everything he was doing was illegal. He was an alcoholic,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: He was a drug addict. He had constantly regulared the
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: liquor store up the road, and basically he would just
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: ride his bike there and get loaded every day. He
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: was not, you know, an active participant in society or anything.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: He first pled not guilty, and apparently they forgot to
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: read him his rights, so he had some kind of
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: legal loopholes that we were really concerned about. Instead of
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: going to trial, we ended up agreeing to a plea
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: deal and he pled guilty, so we didn't end up
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: having to go to trial or anything. You know, he
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: will be getting out if he's still alive, and like,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know the next six years or so. I
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: used to get these like calls anytime they would have
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: to transfer him. That way I would know if he
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: was being moved, And then I was just like, why
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: am I doing this to myself? Like it's just a reminder.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: So I think I opted out of the calls, but
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: I think when he gets out, they have to notify me.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Did he speak at all at his sentencing.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: I think all he said was I'm sorry, but that
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: was all I spoke.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Didn't mean anything to you to hear him apologize.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: No, not really. I really had like an emotional barrier
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: up with him. I just couldn't really let myself get
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: too emotionally involved when it came to him. It wasn't
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: like I just had this hatred for him, but I
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: also just like for a long time, I couldn't even
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: say his name. I couldn't even like accept that this
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: person had killed my husband. I almost feel like it
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: would have been easier if he had said, like I
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: wanted to kill him, or it was like one on
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: purpose or I'm not gonna say it would have been easier,
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: but it would have been easier to like feel all
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: the stuff against him, you know.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean just hearing you talk about the fact
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: that he happened to be high and messing with this
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: gun and standing in the direction of your home and
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: there's a bunch of trees between your houses, and the
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: bullet had to travel all that way and go through
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: all of these different sort of barriers, and it's just
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: such a senseless, one in a billion accident, although I
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: don't want to say one in a billion, because it's like,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: if you fire a gun recklessly, you should expect to
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: hurt someone or kill someone, and in that sense, it's
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: not accidental at all.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they said it was a one in infinity that
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: he made that shot. You know, if he tried to
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: make the shot, he wouldn't have made the shot.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to say, you know, I was listening
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: to a podcast the other day was a father who
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: lost both children in a crash caused by a drunk driver,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: and the person who was interviewing him referred to this
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: as an accident, and he said, no, we don't do that.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: It was a crash because she got behind the wheel
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: drunk and she caused this crash. And when I think
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: about this sort of quote accidental shooting, there's layers to
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: people suffering from addiction. But if you fire a gun recklessly,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: I think you should do it with the full expectation
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: that someone is hurt or killed by that because it
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: is just so dangerous.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's definitely fault in that action, and there's also
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: fault in all of the choices that he made to
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: lead up to that moment. I think that, like we
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: have to be careful with Like I'm not trying to
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: say like people can get an excuse if they're on
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: drugs or whatever, but like we have to be careful
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: with using that as like, oh, well they were drunk,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: it was an accident. It's like maybe so, but you
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: chose those actions, and those actions took a life, so
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: you are responsible for that. I just had to kind
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: of opt out of the hatred. I'll say I never
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: like opted in too, like the hatred. Do I ever
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: want to see that man again in my entire life? No?
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: Do I spend nights thinking about him? No? But I
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: know he's the one responsible. It's just such a complicated thing.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: As she reflects on the unimaginable loss of Justin, her husband,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: her high school sweetheart, Jess still remembers the way her
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: family cared for her and for Jack's even in the
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: midst of their own They showed up and made sure
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: she knew she wasn't alone.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: I just had the best support system ever. I feel
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: almost like I'm not even say ashamed to say it, because,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: like I know, some people don't have the support that
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: I had. So it's it's amazing. My mom, you know,
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: both my parents, my brother, my mother in law, all
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: of my friends. You know, everybody stepped up. I slept
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: with my mom in the bed, I moved in with them. Yeah,
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: and it was all hands on deck. You know, everybody
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: was there to support and to love.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: That's really special because you know they were all grieving, yeah,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: in their own ways too. And you know, I've looked
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: at pictures online. Jack's looks just like Justin.
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I will say, like he also it's weird,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: but he has Justin's mannerisms. Wow, And it's so strange
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: when he has his dad's mannerisms and he doesn't know
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: his dad at all. I love it in those moments
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: when I'm like, oh my god, you're acting just like
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: your dad did, Like my god, look at his foot
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: like he has his dad's foot, Like it's weird. I'm
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: so blessed I found I don't know how I got
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: so blessed to find another amazing husband. And Don is
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: so different than Justin, but he's so alike in all
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: the good ways. And I don't know. It was such
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: a tough but beautiful experience to fall in love again.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: He is the kind of man that he just honors
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: my relationship with Justin. Still he respects it. It's about
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: to be Justin's birthday, and we do a poker game
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: for Justin's birthday every year, and Don is just all
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: part of the experience, and he has a great relationship
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: with Justin's parents. I will say the hardest part about
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: watching Jax is the absence of knowing Justin, and he
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: doesn't know what it's like to even miss Justin. It's
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: hard to watch that because it's just like Justin loved
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: him so much, you know. Me and Don got married
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen, and then we started trying to have
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: a baby. We struggled with some infertility. I'm sure all
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: of the trauma that happened to my body was to
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: thank for that. We ended up having a miscarriage after
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: trying for two years. That was really devastating, and then
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: we had to do IVF and we were not good
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: responders to IVF, like not good, like I didn't have
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: good numbers. But we ended up with one embryo and
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: she's our daughter. She's a miracle.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: How has this experience changed you?
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: There's like a before and there's an after. I've heard
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: of other like moms saying like, well, there's before you're
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: a mom, and then there's after you're a mom. Right,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: It's really hard for me to know which before and
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: which after I'm living in because there's before when I
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: wasn't a mom, and then there's after when I was
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: a mom. But then my after also was a widow.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: It's weird that my journey into being a mom was
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: my journey into the most detrimental life changing event, even
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: above being a mom, losing the greatest love of my life.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: And if that doesn't change you, I don't know what
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: it'll change you. It changed everything about me. The things
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: that didn't change was like my personality. For a while,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: my personality was different, but I started to see glimpses
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: of my personality as I started to come back to life,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: and yeah, it really has changed, really my whole perception
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: on life. I was Christian, as we talked about, I
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: did not go to church or really pray for almost
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: eleven years, and now I've started praying again. I've started
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: going back to church and that's been really good. But
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: it took me a while to get there. Like it
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: just rocked my entire belief system. It's really weird when
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: I show Jack's pictures of like me when I was
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: with Justin or whatever, and even my daughter now, because
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: I'm like, this was a completely different life I was living,
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: and it feels like I've lived two different lives. It
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: really does feel that way. I will graduate in May
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: with my master's and mental health counseling, and then I
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: will open my own private practice. I've been talking to
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: like widows and Greenberg's over social media, and I also
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: wrote a book about grieving widowhood and that type of
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: thing grieving during widehood. And so yeah, I am ready
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: to like finally live out my new passion, which obviously
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: the loss impacted me so much that it became my passion.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: And I know it's weird to say, like my passion
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: is grief. That sounds really strange, but it is. And
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: I've already been taking clients and working with clients that
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: have experienced loss, and I just feel this. I hope
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: that you know, through my experience and through all of
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: my learning and everything, that I'll be able to just
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: be some type of aid in their darkest moments. You know,
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say there really is nothing darker
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: than grief, because I haven't been through every experience that
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: everyone else has been through. But I know for some
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: of us, losing our person, losing the most essential person
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: in our lives, is one of the darkest moments we'll
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: ever live through. So just to help them in any
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: way possible, and that's what I'm going to do. And
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: I'm excited. I'm not excited. It's weird to be excited about,
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: like being in a hard industry.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I think it's a beautiful mission and I'm sure that
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: people who are living out something not difficult appreciate the
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: true understanding of what they're going through.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Wow, what an episode. Yeah, I want to say there
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: was a conversation that you and just had that I
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: really loved and shaded the way that you talked about
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: the word accident in relation to this. That was really
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: important and such a great point that sometimes that word
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: gets thrown around, especially because I think it's pretty clear
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: this man did not intend to kill Justin, but calling
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: it an accident really diminishes the fact that someone made
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: a choice and that choice had deadly effects.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, we read so much about crimes that
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: are taking place, and I had mentioned a podcast interview
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I listened to where that was discussed a little bit
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: with a drunk driving crash that caused two fatalities. And
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: then also, you know, in my hometown, I think it
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: was two years ago now, there was another crash where
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: a young man was driving well over one hundred miles
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: an hour blue right through an inner section right by
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: where my parents live in Washington State. And I mean,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I think he killed at least four people normal, Yeah,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: and many of whom were chill. And someone in one
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: of the comment sections I recalled saying the same thing,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: and I think what that person said is, you know,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: calling this an accident is like firing a gun into
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: a crowd. And calling it an accident, and I thought, yeah,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: that's so right. And then I had listened to this
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: other podcast about grief where that was also up for discussion,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: and I thought it, you know, was important to note
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: here too.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because when you fire a gun in a neighborhood,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you have to expect that that's very dangerous thing to.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: Do, right.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, They're lethal weapons and you have to take it
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: seriously if you're handling one. Yeah, And so the nature
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: of our work sometimes we're having really difficult conversations with
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: people about loss or really traumatic circumstances, and this one
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: was one where I found myself, I think, just so
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: emotional after the interview. And you know, I held it
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: together during the interview because we never want to, you know,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: take away from someone telling us their story by you know,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: making them feel like they have to sympathize with us totally.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it was so sad, and I think for me,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: you know, it was a lighter part of the interview
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: where Jess was able to talk about her life now
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: and having remarried someone that's so understanding of Justin's place
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: in her life. And I loved that. Yeah, me too.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I just thought that was so special and so nice
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: to hear. And I think it was the moment when
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: she spoke about how their son Jack's doesn't know what
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: it's like to miss him. Oh my gosh. Even talking
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: about it now, I'm like, wow, that is just such
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: a burden placed on widows and widowers whose children lose
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: their parents before they maybe have memories of them, to
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: sort of make those memories maybe later in life by
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: telling them about their parents. And yeah, I just thought
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: it was such a powerful interview. And you know the
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: fact that Jess is on her way to being a
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: mental health counselor, I just I think she's going to
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: make such a great impact.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really a powerful interview. And you're right.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: It's like we do do a lot of interviews that
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: are sometimes hard to listen to in the moment, and
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: our job is to be there and hold space also
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: be thinking about these from a journalistic perspective. It's both
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: of those things, and it's not really a space where
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: it's appropriate for us to get emotional. But like, we're
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: also human beings and these stories sometimes really hit you.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: That's like a tricky balance to strike.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And you know that's something people ask me.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know if people ask you in your life,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: but they're like, how do you do that? And you know,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: when I step back and think about it, how do
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: you do that? Meaning like, how do you have these
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: difficult conversations so present in your mind all of the time?
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Does it depress you? Does it impact you?
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: And I think the answer is like sometimes yes, like
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: I'll just need to go for a walk or kind
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: of will talk about like, Okay, well, why are we
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: doing this? Why are we telling the story? And you know,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I think in the case of her story, you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Justin's life mattered and what happened to him shouldn't have
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: happened to him. This person shouldn't have had a gun,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: and you know, that's sort of the why. And I
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: think that that's what I always come back to, is
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: that people should feel that what they've gone through matters. Yeah.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Ah, well, great interview. I really am glad that this
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: interview happened and that it's on our show. I think
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: people will find it really meaningful.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Jess for sharing her story, and
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: we'll see you next week. If you have a story
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: for us, we would love to hear it. Our email
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or a
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: And me Pasha Eden.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport Artwork
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: five and Slilac. Executive produce by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer.