Latest / The Science of Skin / Roflumilast Cream for Toddler Eczema, Psoriasis & Seborrheic Dermatitis
Transcript
- 0:00SPEAKER_01: Thank you to our sponsor, Arcutis Biotherapeutics, for their support of the Science of Skin podcast and furthering Derm Education.
- 0:07SPEAKER_01: Arcutus is a medical dermatology company that champions meaningful innovation to address the urgent needs of individuals living with immune-mediated dermatological diseases and conditions.
- 0:18SPEAKER_01: With a commitment to solving the most persistent patient challenges in dermatology, Arcutis has a growing portfolio of advanced targeted topicals.
- 0:27SPEAKER_01: Arcutis's unique dermatology development platform, coupled with their dermatology expertise, allows them to develop differentiated therapies against biologically validated targets for a range of inflammatory dermatological conditions.
- 0:41SPEAKER_01: Arcutis strives to simplify disease management and optimize drug efficacy, safety, and tolerability.
- 0:48SPEAKER_01: They're determined to elevate the current standard of care, solving for the challenges others haven't.
- 1:02SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Science of Skin Podcast.
- 1:05SPEAKER_00: My name is Dr.
- 1:05SPEAKER_00: Ted Lane.
- 1:06SPEAKER_00: I'm a board certified dermatology and your host for today.
- 1:10SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
- 1:11SPEAKER_00: Listen, I'm gonna ask right away at the beginning if you'd like to subscribe, give us a five-star rating.
- 1:15SPEAKER_00: We could always use the help.
- 1:17SPEAKER_00: We're always looking to expand and trying to provide the best education and knowledge in dermatology that we can.
- 1:24SPEAKER_00: And I think you're in for a real treat today because I'm excited to have Dr.
- 1:28SPEAKER_00: Nena Ageem, who is a pediatric dermatologist practicing in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
- 1:35SPEAKER_00: Nena, so thank you so much for coming on with us today.
- 1:39SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a pleasure.
- 1:40SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be here with you today.
- 1:42SPEAKER_00: Hey, thanks.
- 1:43SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're gonna talk about something that's right in your wheelhouse, which is the importance of the toddler indication for reflumolast cream.
- 1:51SPEAKER_00: And this is an episode sponsored by Arcutis.
- 1:55SPEAKER_00: So, Nena, as as you very well know, we have the Reflumolast 0.05% cream available for two years of age to five years of age, and then the 0.15 for six years of age and older.
- 2:09SPEAKER_00: And so has that really changed the way you practice in terms of these toddlers and atopic dermatitis?
- 2:16SPEAKER_02: Oh, it has.
- 2:17SPEAKER_02: It has changed the game, really, because for the longest time, topical corticosteroids were our mainstay for treating atopic dermatitis and similar inflammatory skin conditions.
- 2:28SPEAKER_02: But we're very well aware of kind of the side effects that come with chronic inflammatory disease.
- 2:34SPEAKER_02: Because we know atopic derm is not something that disappears after like seven days of use or something, and you might need to reach for medication over and over again.
- 2:44SPEAKER_02: Having an option that is safe and effective has been on our wish list as dermatologists for a long time.
- 2:52SPEAKER_02: So the arrival of um non-steroidal topicals like reflamast has really changed the game.
- 2:59SPEAKER_02: Um, when I first started using the medication, it would be as maintenance therapy after maybe acute treatment with topical corticosteroids.
- 3:08SPEAKER_02: But more and more families are coming in requesting from the get-go that they don't even want to try the steroids.
- 3:14SPEAKER_02: And it's nice to say, okay, we still have something you can use that will help.
- 3:18SPEAKER_02: And I found it to be quite effective.
- 3:21SPEAKER_00: You know, I completely agree with you.
- 3:23SPEAKER_00: And and I wasn't sure if it's because of where I practice in Austin that we had a lot of people coming into the practice who just really didn't want topical steroids or oral steroids or any kind of stuff.
- 3:34SPEAKER_00: I feel like steroids is the new S-word, right?
- 3:36SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants it at all, and they're all scared of it, which I think, thank goodness for products like reflumolas, because it really is now meeting the patient's expectations and needs.
- 3:47SPEAKER_02: Yes.
- 3:47SPEAKER_02: Yes.
- 3:48SPEAKER_02: And the fact that it's safe to use on any part of the body, rather than having to decipher, like, what am I going to use on the face versus on the hands versus on the belly?
- 3:58SPEAKER_02: You know, you can tell them this one medication is safe to use anywhere you need it for as long as you need it.
- 4:04SPEAKER_00: Have you encountered any adverse events in your patients using reflumolast and and specifically those who who might need it on a large body surface area?
- 4:13SPEAKER_00: Is that do you get worried about that at all?
- 4:16SPEAKER_02: I do.
- 4:16SPEAKER_02: I have had two cases of infants or rather younger children who had diarrhea in passing.
- 4:25SPEAKER_02: Um, one was interestingly, a mom who their child had had atopic germ for a while and they were you know at their wits and trying to figure out what to use.
- 4:35SPEAKER_02: And we did counsel them to use a little bit of the medication, but she said when she started using it, it worked so well she then buttered the baby in it.
- 4:46SPEAKER_02: And then they had some diarrhea, which passed after they paused the medication.
- 4:51SPEAKER_02: But I think she just got very excited by the response and decided to try to use more.
- 4:55SPEAKER_02: I was like, it's not moisturizer, we still have to like dose it.
- 4:59SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 5:00SPEAKER_00: Well, speaking of moisturizers, do you ask patients to also or have parents apply a moisturizer after applying Zareve, or do you find that it's enough?
- 5:08SPEAKER_02: I still do because I counsel about um the background skin barrier defect in atopic dermatitis needs to be addressed at all times.
- 5:16SPEAKER_02: And then the active areas of flair or inflammation are where we focus the application of the medication.
- 5:23SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
- 5:24SPEAKER_00: So you'll do moisturizer over kind of the entire body essentially and Zareve on the hot spots?
- 5:30SPEAKER_02: Correct.
- 5:30SPEAKER_00: Okay.
- 5:31SPEAKER_00: Okay.
- 5:31SPEAKER_00: Is there a moisturizer in particular that you that you like?
- 5:34SPEAKER_02: Um, I do always recommend because we know that, again, because that skin barrier defect, anyone with atopic dermatitis is at risk for developing contact dermatitis.
- 5:44SPEAKER_02: So we always recommend the simplest formula possible.
- 5:47SPEAKER_02: No fragrance, no preservatives, no parabens if possible.
- 5:51SPEAKER_02: So we like cereb, we like LaRoche Brisset, Vaseline, plain Vaseline is great.
- 5:56SPEAKER_02: It's a single ingredient, you know, um item, but we always recommend hyperallergenic moisturizer that's ceramide rich so that the skin berry is kept healthy.
- 6:06SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 6:07SPEAKER_00: Um, we recorded an episode with Dr.
- 6:09SPEAKER_00: Chris Bunick uh about the formulation of reflumolast, and we we kind of go down a rabbit hole of of the ceramides and and how important it is that this medic that reflumolast meets the uh the acid mantle requirements and it it allows for the skin's own production of ceramides.
- 6:26SPEAKER_00: And we really went down deep on that one.
- 6:28SPEAKER_00: So I think that uh you're exactly right.
- 6:31SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, he's he's done so much basic science research on PDE4 inhibitors, and and then when you looked at the formulation, it it really met his requirements as well for a topical for these patients who have such an impaired barrier.
- 6:45SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's interesting, and uh you know this better than anybody, in regards to how Chrysoborol was launched in uh for for youngsters and then infants even.
- 6:56SPEAKER_00: It was it was great to have that product available for such a young age group, but we were well, I don't know about we, but I was always nervous about the stinging and burning with that formulation.
- 7:06SPEAKER_02: Yes, I had a lot of I I tried it because we're always looking for a stereo-sparing agent, but I had a lot of people complain about the discomfort when it with application.
- 7:17SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 7:18SPEAKER_00: So do you find that because I know you teach residents as well, do you find that you know other dermatologists in the in your area and or your residents are worried about using PDE4 as the mechanism of action because of the legacy of Chrysoboral causing some some stinging or burning?
- 7:35SPEAKER_02: I think earlier on it was a concern, but as we've used it on more and more patients, we find that that has never been a complaint really.
- 7:43SPEAKER_02: Um and there are four other dermatologists in my practice, and pretty much everyone we now like, we have Zareve all over the office, and everyone's happy to use it.
- 7:52SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's a big office.
- 7:53SPEAKER_00: Um, so now we also have Zareve, the reflumolast 0.3% cream for for um patients age six and older.
- 8:02SPEAKER_00: Is I don't know that I see many six-year-olds with psoriasis, quite frankly, but I'm not a pediatric dermatologist.
- 8:08SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you do you rely on that cream as well as part of your armamentarium for psoriasis?
- 8:13SPEAKER_02: I do actually.
- 8:14SPEAKER_02: I saw a patient at the end of last week uh for follow-up on her psoriasis, and she's doing well on Zurib.
- 8:20SPEAKER_02: I do have a fair number of patients who are using um all the different concentrations.
- 8:25SPEAKER_02: We use it for sebarag dermatitis, we use it for atopic dermatitis at the indicated uh strengths and also for atopic dermatitis.
- 8:34SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
- 8:34SPEAKER_00: The sebderm um is the 0.3% foam indicated for nine years of age and older.
- 8:40SPEAKER_00: And we did the trial for that uh for that formulation.
- 8:44SPEAKER_00: And and I I can count on one hand the number of trials I've done where the the subjects in the trial would not give me back the medication because it worked so well.
- 8:52SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 8:53SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
- 8:54SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a patient today who came in and said that um I was like, why are you back early?
- 8:59SPEAKER_02: What happened?
- 9:00SPEAKER_02: He's like, they didn't, I didn't get my Zareb foam.
- 9:02SPEAKER_02: Like, no, I need my Zareeb foam.
- 9:04SPEAKER_02: That's why I came in.
- 9:05SPEAKER_02: He was fine.
- 9:06SPEAKER_02: He's just like the pharmacy hadn't delivered it.
- 9:08SPEAKER_02: That's why he came in today.
- 9:09SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, we'll call them and make sure they did not want to be without it.
- 9:14SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's some commitment to Zareb right there.
- 9:19SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
- 9:25SPEAKER_01: Thank you to our sponsor, Arcutis Biotherapeutics, for their support of the Science of Skin podcast and furthering Derm education.
- 9:33SPEAKER_01: Arcutis is a medical dermatology company that champions meaningful innovation to address the urgent needs of individuals living with immune-mediated dermatological diseases and conditions.
- 9:44SPEAKER_01: With a commitment to solving the most persistent patient challenges in dermatology, Arcutis has a growing portfolio of advanced targeted topicals.
- 9:52SPEAKER_01: Arcutis's unique dermatology development platform, coupled with their dermatology expertise, allows them to develop differentiated therapies against biologically validated targets for a range of inflammatory dermatological conditions.
- 10:07SPEAKER_01: Arcutis strives to simplify disease management and optimize drug efficacy, safety, and tolerability.
- 10:14SPEAKER_01: They're determined to elevate the current standard of care, solving for the challenges others haven't.
- 10:25SPEAKER_00: So, you know, as since I've got a pediatric dermatologist here, Nena, I mean it's not often I get to speak to one, so I'm excited to have you and maybe I can pick your brain for some clinical pearls.
- 10:36SPEAKER_00: I know you you reach for reflumolast for that toddler indication and beyond.
- 10:41SPEAKER_00: And you talked about your favorite moisturizers as well.
- 10:44SPEAKER_00: When you're looking at, for example, sebaric dermatitis, which is such a common issue, right?
- 10:49SPEAKER_00: And and maybe we don't turn to Zere foam initially.
- 10:52SPEAKER_00: Maybe we try shampoos or other topicals.
- 10:54SPEAKER_00: What when you think about, okay, when I first see a sebderm patient, cradle cap even, uh, what do you kind of reach for first?
- 11:01SPEAKER_00: And then what's what's your normal transition from, you know, treatment A to treatment B to treatment C?
- 11:07SPEAKER_02: Well, funny enough, I mean, Zareve is number one.
- 11:10SPEAKER_02: It's part of my Emma phrase on separate dermatitis.
- 11:14SPEAKER_02: Okay.
- 11:14SPEAKER_02: That's how much I use it.
- 11:15SPEAKER_02: Because um, we talk about sebderm is not identical to atopic dermatitis, but it also involves the microbiome, the role of malesthesia, and the inflammation induced by it.
- 11:26SPEAKER_02: It's common around infancy and in younger toddlers because of the hormones um that are evolving after birth.
- 11:34SPEAKER_02: And then we see another peak in incidence around puberty when the hormones are again changing.
- 11:39SPEAKER_02: So those are the two big classes where a septum is prevalent on the pediatric side.
- 11:45SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, because of Zuri's formulation, where it doesn't disrupt the skin barrier.
- 11:51SPEAKER_02: The scalp, people don't think about the scalp as skin, but your scalp is skin as well.
- 11:56SPEAKER_02: And your skin barrier there has to be maintained to minimize further irritation and inflammation.
- 12:01SPEAKER_02: So I find it very, very helpful, very effective.
- 12:05SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of patients of all hair types.
- 12:07SPEAKER_02: I see a lot of skin of color, a lot of people with curly hair, different textures, and I've had across the board everyone really like it.
- 12:16SPEAKER_02: Um classically, we would use like, you know, a fluacinolin oil for more uh coarse textured hair, and then uh maybe a mousse or solution for finer hair.
- 12:26SPEAKER_02: Zare foam works across all hair types, so it's been very, very handy.
- 12:31SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's not messy when people put it on, it doesn't stain their hair or scalp skin, um, and it works.
- 12:39SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 12:40SPEAKER_00: Is there a shampoo uh brand that you turn to for your subderm patients?
- 12:46SPEAKER_02: Actually, more more recently, I would say over the past six months to a year, um, CeraVay's new uh hydrating and anti-dendru shampoo line, I've been using more and more again because I'm very like contact derma is my side gig.
- 13:04SPEAKER_02: Um always like on the hunt for contact derma in all patients who have inflammatory skin disease because I feel like it's a silent exacerbator.
- 13:13SPEAKER_02: And so ketoclonosole, which is our classic uh go-to, if you look at the shampoo formulation, it has a lot of potential allergens and irritants.
- 13:22SPEAKER_02: The ketoclonosole itself, the active ingredient, is not a problem, but the background that you're having them apply to their scalp can trigger further inflammation and slow the response.
- 13:32SPEAKER_02: So I like a shampoo that's clean, easy to use.
- 13:35SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we do the CLN Healthy Scalp shampoo, sometimes we do the Vichy Derkos, but I really like the cerebellate and tidander shampoo.
- 13:44SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you mentioned clean there, and I think that it's becoming more and more of a requirement for our patients to really consider what the ingredients are in all the products that we're applying, that we're recommending.
- 13:56SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
- 13:56SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you look at it from a from a contact lens, a contact dermatitis lens, and which is incredibly important, and I totally understand that.
- 14:04SPEAKER_00: And then we have our patients who are saying, look, I don't want any parabens, any endocrine disruptors that, you know, maybe are not really true, but from what I read on Chat GPT, they're true.
- 14:16SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so they're I'm constantly getting these kinds of questions of okay, what's in there that I need to worry about?
- 14:23SPEAKER_00: And is there another formulation?
- 14:25SPEAKER_00: So I I agree.
- 14:26SPEAKER_00: I I think what what Cera V has done there to really remove many of the ingredients that our patients are wary of um has helped us out, right?
- 14:36SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes, it's very helpful.
- 14:39SPEAKER_02: I mean, it you know, and then we say that because the simpler the formula, the less you have to worry about the contents.
- 14:45SPEAKER_02: I just need the part that works and nothing extra.
- 14:49SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's you know what, and and Zareve cream is like that as well, right?
- 14:52SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have um, you know, many of the emulsifiers and the high surfactant load and the the uh barrier disruptors such as ethanol or isopropyl alcohol.
- 15:04SPEAKER_00: Uh, it just doesn't contain that because again, we we have a whole episode on the formulation, but it it kind of meets those needs also.
- 15:12SPEAKER_02: Yes.
- 15:13SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I used to teach residents um in a larger capacity, they made fun of me because I only wanted the ointment of every steroid.
- 15:23SPEAKER_02: I didn't want the creams because I was like, the ointment is active ingredient, comma vaseline.
- 15:29SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
- 15:29SPEAKER_02: Period.
- 15:30SPEAKER_02: The creams, transolone cream, hydrocortisone cream has like 15 ingredients.
- 15:35SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, we're starting, we're looking at a patient who's starting with a barrier that's disrupted.
- 15:40SPEAKER_02: And everything you were telling them to apply on large body surface areas is going into their skin and being introduced to their immune system.
- 15:48SPEAKER_02: So if they're doing this every day, every other day, we don't have to introduce things we don't need.
- 15:53SPEAKER_02: Um, but then there were patients who don't like the feel of an ointment on their skin.
- 15:57SPEAKER_02: So even though I'm trying to get them something simple, it wasn't an L game formulation that they were willing to apply.
- 16:03SPEAKER_02: So something like the reflumelas cream is great because patients are like, they don't mind the texture and it's not giving them anything extra.
- 16:12SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
- 16:13SPEAKER_00: As we, if we could turn to psoriasis now, right?
- 16:16SPEAKER_00: And you talked about how much you rely on reflumolas cream or zerev cream and foam for your pediatric patients.
- 16:24SPEAKER_00: What else do you use for your psoriatic patients?
- 16:26SPEAKER_00: If we think about, you know, um over-the-counter creams or lotions or potions, is there anything that you kind of rely on for that patient population?
- 16:35SPEAKER_02: So we we talked to them about, you know, because I had like thinking about that girl I mentioned earlier, she was like, Well, I don't use my moisturizer just on my face, but my skin feels dry.
- 16:45SPEAKER_02: So we talk about using emollients on all the skin surface.
- 16:49SPEAKER_02: And then um usually if they're doing phototherapy as part of their treatment, because you can combine rulimlast with phototherapy or other things depending on their body surface area, or if they're having a gut tape flare.
- 17:04SPEAKER_02: Um, we talk about photoprotection as well because we know exposure to the cell, like a sunburn during a Texas summer, can trigger psoriasis and flare.
- 17:12SPEAKER_02: Um, so we cancel about general skin health in addition to um a ceramite-based emolliment and application of something like grip one last.
- 17:22SPEAKER_00: You know, I think you bring up a really good point again, Nana, which is we don't think about the barrier disruption in psoriasis enough and how it you can get pretty darn far just by using a really good emollient moisturizer ceramide containing, like you mentioned.
- 17:38SPEAKER_00: And that's what you see with all these different uh trials um looking at topicals for psoriasis, many of them have a pretty high uh vehicle response rate because of the the the way that we're repairing the barrier.
- 17:52SPEAKER_00: Certainly that would make sense for AD.
- 17:54SPEAKER_00: I mean, we think about chicken or the egg, is it the immunologic dysfunction or is it the barrier dysfunction which comes first?
- 18:01SPEAKER_00: I'm not really sure.
- 18:02SPEAKER_00: But with psoriasis, it seems like barrier disruption is a result of the inflammation and and yet we don't pay enough attention to it.
- 18:11SPEAKER_00: So again, we have to say this, but that Zareve cream with the transcutol, the crotifos, and and the laugh, the lack of excipients that could lead to barrier disruption, further impair the barrier, is so important for our psoriasis patients.
- 18:29SPEAKER_00: And frankly, the same goes for sebreac dermatitis, like you said.
- 18:34SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the skin of the scalp is still skin and it's got a barrier.
- 18:38SPEAKER_00: And so we need to respect that as well.
- 18:41SPEAKER_00: Um, Nana, thank you so much.
- 18:43SPEAKER_00: I I've learned a lot thinking about our kids.
- 18:48SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I I don't know that many dermatologists out there see that many, unless you're pediatric dermatologists, see that many young, young kids.
- 18:54SPEAKER_00: And I feel like as I've matured in my practice, I see less and less young kids.
- 18:58SPEAKER_00: I miss that.
- 18:59SPEAKER_00: Um, but just having some time with the pediatric dermatologist is so valuable.
- 19:03SPEAKER_00: So I thank you so much for coming on.
- 19:05SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
- 19:06SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you for the invitation.
- 19:08SPEAKER_02: And I do want to say, like, the feedback from our patients, we all are doing this because we want our patients to have the best outcomes possible.
- 19:15SPEAKER_02: And two things that I always remember that patients have said to me after using zurib.
- 19:20SPEAKER_02: One was a mom who said, I never imagined my baby would have baby skin again.
- 19:26SPEAKER_02: You know, I was like, that that's a win.
- 19:29SPEAKER_02: Um, and I had a patient, an African-American patient, who was skeptical about using something like the Zurib foam, but she said, you know, I didn't think it was possible to maybe flake-free.
- 19:41SPEAKER_02: I didn't think it was possible to not have to think about anything coming out out of my scalp.
- 19:47SPEAKER_02: And so having patients like experience what we're saying could happen, you know, has been really, really I'm very grateful to be able to share that with them.
- 19:57SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially with textured hair, you know, where the hair washing practices are are less frequent.
- 20:03SPEAKER_00: And so you you really need to be careful about the formulation, but also you need to make sure that it's active so that you can help.
- 20:09SPEAKER_00: And and so I think that's I mean, you know, you highlight something that we battle with every day with with our patients with textured hair.
- 20:16SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I completely agree.
- 20:18SPEAKER_00: This foam formulation, as I mentioned in the trials, we had that experience, and ever since it really does do great things.
- 20:25SPEAKER_00: And you know, patients with SEBDERM, they tend to use I think it's a like six different products uh on average.
- 20:33SPEAKER_00: And so to be able to whittle that down to one that works very nicely once a day, it's just a huge win, right?
- 20:39SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
- 20:41SPEAKER_00: It is well, I think that's a great way for us to end.
- 20:43SPEAKER_00: It's a huge win.
- 20:45SPEAKER_00: Uh thanks so much for listening, everybody.
- 20:47SPEAKER_00: Again, my name is Dr.
- 20:48SPEAKER_00: Ted Lane.
- 20:49SPEAKER_00: This is the Science of Skin Podcast.
- 20:51SPEAKER_00: Uh, for Dr.
- 20:52SPEAKER_00: Nena Ageem, I'm Dr.
- 20:54SPEAKER_00: Ted Lane.
- 20:54SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening, and uh, I hope you enjoyed it.
- 21:02SPEAKER_01: Thank you to our sponsor, Arcutis Biotherapeutics, for their support of the Science of Skin Podcast and furthering Durham education.
- 21:09SPEAKER_01: Arcutis is a medical dermatology company that champions meaningful innovation to address the urgent needs of individuals living with immune-mediated dermatological diseases and conditions.
- 21:20SPEAKER_01: With a commitment to solving the most persistent patient challenges in dermatology, Arcutis has a growing portfolio of advanced targeted topicals.
- 21:29SPEAKER_01: Arcutis's unique dermatology development platform, coupled with their dermatology expertise, allows them to develop differentiated therapies against biologically validated targets for a range of inflammatory dermatological conditions.
- 21:43SPEAKER_01: Arcutis strives to simplify disease management and optimize drug efficacy, safety, and tolerability.
- 21:50SPEAKER_01: They're determined to elevate the current standard of care, solving for the challenges others haven't.