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Transcript

Determinism vs. Randomness · Pick Up and Deliver

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(wind blowing)
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Welcome to Pick Up and Deliver, the podcast
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where I pick up my audio recorder as
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I step off the train and deliver an episode
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to you while I walk home.
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I'm Brendan Riley.
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(upbeat music)
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Well, good afternoon listeners.
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It's a lovely day here in suburban Chicago.
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I'm enjoying my walk home with the temperature
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in the mid 50s, which is very nice.
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Not wearing my jacket.
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Ha ha.
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Well, I was thinking about what I would talk about
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with you today.
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And I think this might be a thing I'll do
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moving forward just because I'm lazy and it's useful.
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I don't know if you recall a couple of weeks ago.
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I did an episode stealing a topic
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from the podcast Cardboard Philosophy.
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Well, today I'm swiping another episode, another topic.
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This is from the most recent episode
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of the Secret Cabal Gaming Podcast.
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Their special topic of discussion was
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Determinism versus Randomness.
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Now this is something I've certainly talked about
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on the podcast before.
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If you go to the show page for this episode,
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over at rattleboxgames.com,
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you'll find a series of links to other episodes
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where I've talked about these issues,
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but I thought it would be helpful
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to talk about this issue with you here and explore it.
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So essentially what they talked about
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on the Secret Cabal Gaming Podcast was
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the viewer wrote in and said that they really liked
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the conversations they've had about randomness
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and about determinism on the Secret Cabal.
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And they asked the founders to discuss
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their absolute favorite games that do the most randomness,
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the most determinism.
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And if there are any games that exist in the butter zone
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exactly between the two extremes.
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And that's what the group talked about.
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Now the founders did elucidate one essential difference
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that the person making inquiry
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didn't really connect with,
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which was the topic of randomness being,
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what sort of I'm looking for,
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that randomness functions in two ways in games,
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the randomness functions as a set up mechanism
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or as an outcome mechanism.
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Now what's interesting is if you listen to the podcast,
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they get these terms backwards,
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at least I'm about 95% sure they did.
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I looked it up, I definitely know that I'm using them correctly,
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but from what I heard, it sounded like
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they were using them incorrectly.
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So I'm gonna define a couple terms first.
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In game design, there is a phrase,
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there are two phrases, two terms, input randomness
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and output randomness.
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The input and output have to do with when the random items,
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when the randomness of the game manifests
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in relationship to the decisions the players make.
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The part that the,
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the part that the secret cabal got wrong is,
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which one means what?
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As far as I've been able to tell,
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input randomness is where the game produces the randomness,
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it inputs it before you make your decision.
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The game includes the randomness, it comes in,
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you make your decision.
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Output randomness is you make your decision
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and then the randomness comes out of that.
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That's the way I've always remembered it
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and that is the way according to my research,
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the terms are meant to be used.
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If you listen to the secret cabal podcast,
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I think they got it backwards.
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That said, if you just understand
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that they got the terms backwards,
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they had a really interesting conversation about this.
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So I wanted to put in my two cents.
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So to answer the original question
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of the person who posed it,
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what is the most random game
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and what is the most deterministic game?
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And I think a secondary element is,
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what is the most random input randomness game?
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What is the most random output randomness game?
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And what is the most deterministic game?
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And then is there a game that gets that mix just right?
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So a lot of different options here.
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So I thought at first I would talk about
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games that involve input randomness.
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Now most Euro games that have some level of randomness at all
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have input randomness.
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The example they brought up on the secret cabal
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was Castles of Burgundy.
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In that game you roll dice
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and then you can spend those dice
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to do a variety of different things
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because you roll the dice before you take your action
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that is input randomness.
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Though that idea also perpetuates
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through a number of other elements
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of Castles of Burgundy.
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It determines which tiles come out into the depots.
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It determines which tiles come out into the market to purchase.
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And those three things together
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set up different situations in which you have to react
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tactically and somewhat strategically
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to the randomness that the game creates for you.
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So in terms of pointing to a game
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that has a fair amount of input randomness,
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I think Castles of Burgundy is a great call.
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The couple other games I would point to
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that have a similar thing.
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Deck Builders that use a line,
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a river of cards to purchase
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like Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle
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is involves input randomness in two ways.
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One, there is a river of cards that you're buying.
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Two, actually three ways I guess.
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One, there is, okay,
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Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle
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involves input randomness in three different venues.
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One, it has the river of cards that you can purchase from.
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Two, it has the villains that come out.
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You don't ever know what order they're gonna come out
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except that Voldemort will be last.
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And three, the cards coming out of your deck
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that you have shuffled.
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So all three of those things,
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they all happen before you take your turn.
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They're all input randomness
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and then you respond to those situations
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with your decisions.
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So I would point to most deck builders
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as having a very high degree of randomness
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that's input randomness.
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That said, most of these games people don't think of
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when they think of like a really random game.
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You often don't talk about those games.
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I would say perhaps the highest version
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of input randomness that I can think of
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is Karl Chudyk's Mottainai.
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Now in Mottainai you have a wide variety
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of different things you can do with your cards
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and the cards have a variety of different things
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that they can do.
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But you never know which cards you're gonna get and when.
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There are a number of different ways to draw cards
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but when you get them, you never know
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quite what they're gonna be
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and since each one has a different power on it,
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it's extremely, you're acting extremely reactive
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to the cards that you draw.
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I would accept and without too much vigor argue
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that Innovation has a similar level of randomness
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as part of its construction
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because that game is also full of cards
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that have a variety of different figures on them.
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So for input randomness, there we go.
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I think the extreme would be Mottainai or Innovation.
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With regard to output randomness,
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output randomness are games where the result
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has to is determined by the randomness.
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Now one way to do this would be to focus on games
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that are entirely about output randomness,
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that perhaps the most output random game I think
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you'd think of is Strike.
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And Strike you are rolling dice into a bowl
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and you're seeing if your dice match.
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If the dice match in pairs or triples or whatever,
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if you ever have more than one dice that matches,
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you get to pick it up.
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If the dice don't match, then you leave them in there
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or if you roll the X, the dice,
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the die is removed from the bowl
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and you're allowed to keep rolling into the bowl
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as long as you want, but if you run out of dice,
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you lose the game.
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It is an entirely random game with almost no control.
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The only decision you get to make is
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do you throw a die or dice into the bowl or not?
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So very, very random.
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That might be the most random game I could point to,
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but it's also barely a game because of that randomness.
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If you wanted to find a couple more games
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that were a little more gamey that I really enjoy
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that work on this output randomness,
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often push your luck games depend on output randomness
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because part of what you're trying to do
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is decide how long do I keep relying on randomness
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to keep the game going.
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So a game like Quacks of Quedlinburg or Incan Gold,
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these are output randomness games
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and I think very successful in it.
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The other kind of game that I like that has output randomness
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are the Ameritrash games, particularly those
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from Flying Frog Productions,
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which focus on a classic style of playing a game
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that has a variety of results that you're trying to achieve
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and they all happen via die rolls.
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So I really like in Last Night on Earth
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or in the A Touch of Evil how you're gonna roll a die
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and that die will determine what happens
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in the outcome of your play.
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You get some things to mitigate the result,
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but not very many,
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and often just a bad roll as a bad roll as a bad roll.
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So I would point to if I'm gonna say a game
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that uses output randomness the most,
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it's gonna be Last Night on Earth or A Touch of Evil.
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As my favorite game that has tons of output randomness.
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I was thinking a little bit about deterministic games.
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On one hand, there are games that are absolutely deterministic
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but not very interesting for this conversation,
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particularly Chess and Go and Checkers,
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but that's not really what I wanna talk about
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those in this context.
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So it does beg the question,
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what would be my top deterministic games?
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And I can think of three that I wanna suggest.
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The first is one that they did mention on The Secret Cabal
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and that is Small World.
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Now Steve brought that game up in the context of output randomness
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or input randomness I guess because the factions
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that you're choosing are determined randomly.
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So when you are choosing your faction,
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there's this line of factions that have been put out
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and which pairings are in that line is random.
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That said, that aspect is determined
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well before you make your choice.
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So at best it's input randomness.
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But that's a very small part of the game.
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The main thing of the game is where do you choose to go,
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what do you choose to do?
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The entire context of the game is presented in fullness
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and you know what's gonna happen.
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You can make choices based on the pieces you have.
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You know exactly how the battles are gonna go out
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before you do them.
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This is the epitome of determinism
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and I think it works really well.
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So one of my favorite deterministic games would be Small World.
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There are two other games that I would point to
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that are not chess or checkers,
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but also feel deterministic.
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Okay, there's a few more games I would point to
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that feel deterministic.
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One of them is the game.
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And this one, this is interesting
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because the uncertainty comes from the other players
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which is true of like chess.
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Wow, this is the game, Strife.
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Now if you're a long time listener of the podcast,
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you know I mention this game once a year.
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It is a card game where you're choosing your cards
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and playing them against your opponent
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and all the cards interact in specific ways.
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So you know what your card is gonna do.
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You know what their card is going to do.
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The uncertainty comes from you not knowing
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which card they're going to pick,
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but it is a perfect information game.
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You know exactly which cards they have
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because you have those same cards.
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You can always see all the cards they've played.
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So it's a perfect information game.
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Even if it's not perfect certainty.
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I can't remember what term Tony used in the podcast.
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But Strife would be an example of another game
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that has no randomness,
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but nonetheless feels like it has some.
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Then you have three games that are sort of
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from the model of Chess or Checkers,
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but are in fact new hobby games.
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And those would be Onitama,
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Cairn and to That Time You Killed Me.
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Now Onitama you could argue has a little bit
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of uncertainty in it
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because the cards that you have at the beginning of the game
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are secret from your opponents.
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And they don't know which card you have
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until after you've played it.
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So that tiny piece of Onitama is uncertain,
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but not random.
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Every player has, one of the players has access to it
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and gets to control it.
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And then you get two other games that are much more abstract,
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but fully pull it perfect information.
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And that is Cairn and That Time You Killed Me.
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Both Cairn and That Time You Killed Me,
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are games where you know exactly what the opponent can do
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and you're just trying to anticipate and outplay them.
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These are games that feel most like
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Chess or Checkers or other games of similar ilk,
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even if they have their own uniquenesses.
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And those would be games that are the epitome of determinism.
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Well that brings me to the end of my walk.
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I did not come up with an answer
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for the buttery smooth middle game.
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So I leave it to you listeners,
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pickers-up and deliverers, PUDders.
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I don't know what we're calling you.
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I don't, did we decide that?
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Contribute to that conversation or to the question
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of which game falls right in the middle
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by heading to boardgamegeek guild 3269
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and sharing your thoughts over there.
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Thanks for joining me on my walk today.
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I hope your next walk
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is as pleasant as mine was.
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Bye-bye.
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