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Escaping a Cult: 28 Years of Brainwashing with Peter Young · The Mental Healness Podcast

0:01
What is going on? Beautiful folks, Welcome to
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another episode of The Mental Hill.
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In this podcast with your favorite diagnosed sources, me,
0:07
Mr. Lee Hammock, Mental Hills and myself.
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Today we're talking about cult dynamics y'all, and I'll have a
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very, very special guest for Y'all.
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We have former sports broadcaster and best selling
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author of Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger, Mr. Peter Young.
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What's going on, Peter? How you doing today?
0:23
Lee, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on your
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podcast. No, thanks for thanks for coming
0:27
on. I'm super excited to talk to you
0:29
today. So just tell the folks a little
0:31
bit about yourself. So I always give the Reader's
0:34
Digest version. I, growing up in New Jersey, was
0:36
going to be the next Larry Bird and that didn't happen.
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So then I got into coaching and I was going to be the next Mike
0:41
Schefsky, John Wooden, and that didn't happen.
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And then I got into sports broadcasting and I was going to
0:46
be the next Bob Costas. And that didn't happen.
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And then I unwittingly got sucked into a cult when I when I
0:52
married into it and kind of destroyed my my marriage, my
0:56
family. But I recovered and wrote a
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book. It is an Amazon bestseller.
1:00
So I'm not trying to be the next Louis Lemoore or John Steinbeck
1:02
or or John Grisham. Just finally lead trying to be
1:06
the best version of me, Peter Young.
1:08
Well, that's great. That's great to hear.
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I know you said being trying to be Larry Bird and stuff like
1:14
that. I thought it was funny because I
1:15
heard that when, if one thing fails, try something else,
1:19
right? If this doesn't work, I'll try
1:20
something else. And it's, it's always a good
1:21
mindset to have though. Like, so one thing doesn't work.
1:24
There's always other things to pursue.
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And I'm glad you end up, you know, do you feel like, do you
1:28
feel like you found your calling with the writing?
1:30
Oh, I do, yeah. So, you know, I kind of consider
1:33
myself a storyteller, and that's what a good sports broadcaster
1:36
will do. He doesn't kind of dominate the
1:38
the game, but he tells the story of the game and the athletes.
1:41
And so that's what I do as a writer.
1:43
I'm a storyteller trying to become a better writer.
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OK, that's, that's amazing right there.
1:48
So the, the you said you've married the love of your life
1:52
and it somehow winded you up in a cult.
1:54
How? How do we get there?
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Yeah, good question. So I met, I call her Page in my
1:59
book, met her back in the fall of 1996, a little old Pocatello,
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ID. I was the sports broadcaster for
2:06
the local ABC affiliate. And she's this tall, beautiful,
2:09
stunningly gorgeous woman, 6 foot 1, you know, long blonde
2:12
hair. You couldn't miss her.
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And I'd seen her around town. Never met her.
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And then when I finally did meet her, you know, I heard about
2:19
this family guru that she had this guy called Uncle Robert.
2:23
And so we dated and, you know, it got pretty serious fairly
2:26
quickly. But I knew she had this guy in
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her life. She talked about him all the
2:31
time, this Uncle Robert. So I eventually ended up meeting
2:34
him. And I thought, I can't marry
2:36
this woman until I meet the guy. And he was odd, eccentric,
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weird, you know, I didn't see him as a narcissist yet.
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And I thought, well, he's, he's relatively harmless.
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And I was dead wrong. So we got married.
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And for the first few years of our marriage, he lived in
2:49
California, We lived in Idaho. He didn't have that much of an
2:52
impact on our lives. But that changed pretty quickly.
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And so then I became the proverbial frog in the pot of
2:59
boiling water and went along to get along because my wife adored
3:02
the guy and she was born into the cult.
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She was born into it, so she knew no other world where this
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guy was the expert on everything.
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That right there, that part right there makes me feel bad
3:12
for people in your wife's situation because I heard that
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so much. When you, because you get born
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into it. That's the only world you know,
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that's the world you know, and this is like the life you live
3:23
and whatnot. And then you get pulled.
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You don't know anything different.
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So you don't think you're doing anything bad.
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And I think sometimes even in her situation, I think it's like
3:31
sometimes she doesn't know she was doing anything bad.
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You wrote on here that being in the cult destroyed your
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marriage. How, how did it?
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How did that go come about? So, you know, we were married
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for over 20 years. And you know, in in a marriage,
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I always tell people, you know, for the, for the Christian
3:50
audience, you know, a marriage should have Christ in the
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center. No, no parrot, no child, no
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guru, no pastor, no, but no priest.
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All these people can help strengthen a marriage from the
4:00
outside. But you should have Christ in
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the center, nobody else. We had Uncle Robert in the
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center of our marriage. And so anytime, you know, she
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should have come to me, we would have a serious discussion about
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whatever it may be. She would go to him first, and
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so she always went to him. He was always the expert in her
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life, the one that she adored, revered and most respected.
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I was probably a distant second until eventually probably
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distant third or fourth behind. Her father was also in the cult.
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So, you know, she listened to him and eventually really left
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me to draw closer to him. But it took a long time to get
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there, about 20 years. OK so we asked this one of the
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question I asked like so her family was also in the cult as
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well, like her mother and her father or just a father?
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Mother and father. So again, it was very small at
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its most it might have had let's say 20 people, maybe a dozen
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adults plus some kids. So it would have been Paige and
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her parents were older brother, couple of other guys in and out
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kind of on the periphery of the cult and then my children.
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So it it was pretty small, but but definitely Uncle Robert
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would have kind of glommed on in a very parasitic fashion to
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Paige's parents before Paige was even born since his early 70s.
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OK, so he's around the same age as her parents were.
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Correct. Yeah, they're both.
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All three of them would be around 80 at this point.
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OK, oh, right now. So they're 80 right now.
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OK, OK, I was just curious about how that works right there
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because like, do you know, I don't know this right question
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how they even start? How they even came about like
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their that that that cult? How did How did they even get
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started? You know what?
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And I can tell you how it got started, but I think the, the
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bigger question is, you know, how does a, a narcissistic cult
5:38
leader germinate or form, you know, what kind of soil does he
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spring out of? But they met at a tiny seminary
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in Fresno, CA back in like the late 60s, early 70s.
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And so Uncle Robert's real name is Robert Booty, came from
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Syria, met an American woman, got married, and then when he
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goes to the seminary, meets Paige's parents who come down
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from Canada. And and you know, Paige's
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parents would have been very ripe and ready for a guy like
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this, a very manipulative kind of a con artist.
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And so it was a very one sided relationship from the get go.
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OK. And then like I said, once it
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got started, so it was just he said her parents him.
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Were there any other adults in there other than you as well?
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Yeah, so there would have been a few other people that kind of
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came and went from the call. They would have been in it for a
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while, then maybe saw what it was and were able to get out.
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There was a guy we called Brother Michael.
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I always describe him as like Batman and Robin.
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Like Uncle Robert was Batman and and Brother Michael was was
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Robin, right? He was the sidekick.
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So there were a few people like that over the years.
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So what would have some of the earliest signs that like you've
6:45
realized now, were manipulation, even though like, you might have
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missed him at that point in time?
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Well, I can tell you when I first met my future
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father-in-law, so I'm dating Paige.
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It's like a month and I go up to northern Idaho where they lived
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for Thanksgiving. And I'm not in the house 10-15
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minutes. I go down the hall to go to the
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bathroom and I stand up to go pee, right, my guy?
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And then as soon as I open the door to walk out, he's standing
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right there. And he would always stand very
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close to you. And he said in my house, the men
7:14
need to sit down and to pee. You need to sit down to pee
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because it's cleaner. So, you know, clearly he was
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listening. And then he said this phrase,
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Lee, that, you know, I it's the first time I heard it.
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And he said it many times over the years.
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He said Uncle Robert taught me that.
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So Uncle Robert would teach him everything there was there was
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nothing out of bounds that Uncle Robert would not tell my former
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in laws. Here's what you need to do.
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And they followed it. Everything that he told them to
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do, they did. And so then for me, marrying
7:45
into this family, that control was, you know, put upon my
7:49
shoulders and I sat down to pee for many years and long, long a
7:55
lot of other crazy things. How does that work though?
7:58
How does it like I know you said it the day I started doing that
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type of stuff. So how does I'm just trying to
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figure out the, the mentality that goes into like a
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narcissistic cult leader right there.
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How do they convince people that this is correct?
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Like this is the right way to live?
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Like this is kind of like my way or the highway type of situation
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and to accept that. Yeah, the analogy I gave would
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be like, you know, Uncle Robert would have thought that he was
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more Christian than anybody else, you know, more
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enlightened, do the gospel better than anybody else.
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So the analogy I would give, like if you mishit a golf ball,
8:29
lead, like if you mishit a golf ball by this much, OK, 100 yards
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down the fairway, it's way off to the left, way off to the
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right, nowhere near where you wanted it to go, Uncle Robert
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would tee up the right golf ball.
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If I keep this metaphor going, He would read the Bible, and he
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knew the Bible really well. But then with each and every
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verse, he would give it his unique and perverse spin every
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single verse year after year after year that we would meet
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with him. So five, 10-15 years down the
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road, we're nowhere near what the gospel really means.
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We're really following his gospel.
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So it was a very slow, subtle process that took a long time.
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And I have to add, too for me, you know, I went along with it
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to get along with my wife. If, if I wasn't in love with
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Paige and you sat me down with Uncle Robert.
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We had a cup of coffee after 1520 minutes.
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I'd be like, well, he's a funny guy, but he's nuts, you know,
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He's kind of crazy. I followed him and I kind of
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slowly got beaten down and brainwashed because I didn't
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want to lose my marriage. So you mentioned how to use the
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Bible in in in the inner manipulations and whatnot.
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What role did faith play in getting you into it and also
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helping you escape this cult dynamic?
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Well, it really is. It's the centerpiece with all of
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this. So, you know, 20 years in, Uncle
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Robert and my wife were convinced that I was not a
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Christian, that I had lied, tried to convince them or fool
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them that I was a Christian. So thus I was a fraud.
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She and Uncle Robert then started to teach our five
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children that I was the devil, that I was Satan, I was a
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sorcerer, I was a bloodline or sperm daughter.
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And what? And you probably know this, a
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lot of what cult leaders do, and all cult leaders are
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narcissistic, but not all narcissists are cult leaders.
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Yeah, but often cult leaders will act as a gatekeeper to God.
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Whatever faith you're part of, they will act as a gatekeeper to
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God. Where in the Christian faith,
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you you could. You don't need a gatekeeper.
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There's no intermediary between you and Christ.
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Well, for Uncle Robert, he always put himself in between.
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So I had to kind of get approval from him before I could be
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saved, which is wicked and unbiblical.
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Right. So for many years, you know, I
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knew that Paige doubted my faith.
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I knew that Uncle Robert doubted my faith and it was probably 17
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years into our marriage that I finally caved and thought, well,
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maybe I'm missing something, right?
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Maybe. All these years and I grew up in
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a Christian home, went to church as a kid, I professed my faith,
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I'd been baptized all before I met Uncle Robert.
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And I thought, well, maybe I'm missing something and I wasn't.
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I was getting brainwashed as what was happening.
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So on the way out, my faith was really the only thing that saved
10:58
me and that was through my friends and my family that was
11:01
not involved in the cult. You know, my parents and
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brothers and sister in law's, they recognize it right away and
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they helped me see and thus recover.
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OK. Was there a specific moment in
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time you you think you kind of woke up and you started
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realizing that everything looked different than what you thought
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it was? Yes, so I got and I got to set
11:19
this up with a story. So we have five children.
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OK, so we had five children, and we had talked about maybe having
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a sixth child. And if it was a boy, we'd name
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him Matthew. So this is, again, 1718 years
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into our marriage. Paige and I go on a date night.
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She gets all dressed up, she looks beautiful, and she tells
11:33
me of this burning desire to have another child, only not
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with me. Uncle Robert had two sons and
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they had granddaughters, not grandsons.
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And Paige was adamant that Uncle Robert's precious bloodline had
11:47
to continue for literally the world to survive.
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Like he is so important. He's preventing World War Three
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because he has all these famous and influential friends and
11:57
everybody believes them and we have to protect his bloodline.
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So she wanted to be a surrogate and provide Uncle Robert with a
12:03
male grandson by having a child in vitro through one of his
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sons, which I of course was repulsed by this and it did not
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happen thankfully. Then Fast forward two years
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later when she leaves me and considers me a fraud and a devil
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and not a true believer, not a true Christian, and thus someone
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the kid should not trust our kids.
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She started calling me a bloodline and a sperm donor and
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I'm thinking wait a minute, wait a minute, that is wicked.
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And that was one of the first triggers for me that helped me
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realize there's something wrong here.
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Yeah, OK. When you were talking, you said
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something that resonate with me, kind of like made me going to my
12:44
like my mental, my mental and different mental space right
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there. I feel like you you said all
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like all cult leaders are narcissists and not, not all
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narcissists are cult leaders. Yeah.
12:53
Which is true. Is it that I feel like cult
12:55
leaders thrive on fear, right? Is it fear a big part of that
13:00
right there? Because I feel like they always
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find something that you maybe don't even realize that you're
13:04
afraid of. But they find a fear and they
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nurture it. They water it and they they
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convince you that this fear is real.
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I feel like with your wife, this fear that he needed a male air
13:15
with something that he seemed like he was he was watering for.
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Wow. What do you think about that
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right there? Yeah, I think cult leaders
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navigate towards fear and shame for one reason, one reason only,
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and that is to control the cult members.
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So they use fear, they use the shame and the guilt to control
13:32
the cult member. So that way you, you can't
13:34
leave, you're always going to doubt yourself.
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You need the cult leader. You can't survive life in in the
13:39
outside world without him because he has convinced you of
13:42
how guilty you are or how shameful you are.
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And then you become fearful of the outside world.
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And that is cultivated over a long time, whether it is
13:51
conscious or not on the part of the cult leader, They all do it.
13:56
You know, Lee, I've done a lot of research on cults since I got
13:58
out of it and, and they all look, you know, and sound
14:02
different, right? Some are sexually abusive or
14:04
physically abusive, which ours was not thankfully.
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But they all have a leader and and they all check the same
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boxes when when you peel back the onion, all these leaders are
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are really the same. So what do all cult leaders tend
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to share psychologically? Because you mentioned that all
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of them are the same. What do you think they share
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psychologically? Well, to me, you know, I've had
14:23
experience with one and then I've done a lot of research on
14:26
other ones. They act as a gatekeeper to God.
14:28
They make all the rules, but the rules don't apply to them.
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They're very narcissistic. They have a strong grasp on
14:35
psychology and they control their members through isolation,
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paranoia and secrecy, along with the guilt and shame.
14:43
And they also try and have all of the members of the cult
14:47
compete as if they are all a son or daughter of a cult leader.
14:50
So like in our cult, we had my in laws, my wife and I and my
14:54
kids. So that's three generations.
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But within that, everybody kind of becomes one of the same and
14:59
you're all like little kids. He will demean you and put you
15:03
down. So you're all like little
15:04
children underneath the cult leader and oh, the last thing is
15:09
they hate questions. Do they hate questions?
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Oh, they hate questions. And I always tell people the
15:17
truth doesn't mind to be questioned, right?
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If you believe in something strongly and you know it to be
15:22
the truth, you will welcome questions.
15:25
Cult leaders hate questions. So, for instance, Uncle Robert
15:29
felt that everything in history, every plane crash, recession,
15:33
war, depression, you name it, was a Jewish conspiracy to take
15:36
over the world. And I'm like, OK, can you give
15:40
me some examples? Can you give me some proof?
15:41
Right. Like, can you explain why you
15:43
think this way? And I would never get a good,
15:46
solid answer. I would get maybe a little bit
15:48
of an answer. And then the rest of it was,
15:50
Peter, why are you so stupid that you don't understand me?
15:54
Right. So it's, you know, kind of epic
15:56
gaslighting. And the problem with me, it was
16:00
never that I asked him a question he couldn't answer.
16:01
OK, Yeah, that's that's that's why right there I wrote down
16:05
that gatekeeper to God because that makes so much sense right
16:07
there. Like would you say like in real
16:09
life, a relationship between you and Christ is like a direct
16:13
connection right there, right in these cult dynamics or cult
16:16
like, you know, narcissistic county dynamics, that leader is
16:20
going to be the intermediary or try to get in between there to
16:23
twist the message and whatnot. Oh, that's yeah, I wrote that
16:26
down right then highlighted that like, OK, the gatekeeper to God.
16:29
That makes a lot of sense right there.
16:30
I didn't. I never thought about it from
16:32
that perspective right there. I know they use religion as a
16:35
manipulation tool, but I just didn't see how they get in
16:37
between you and your relationship with God and are
16:40
able to like set, like you said earlier, subtly twist that over
16:44
time to cultivate their own beliefs and get you to believe
16:47
their own belief system and things like that.
16:49
That's I appreciate you sharing it right there.
16:52
That's something's going. I'm going to take that with me.
16:55
That'll be in my that'll be in my wallet from now on, right?
16:57
Yeah, and and you know, again, he, he knew his Bible, the Bible
17:00
even talks about it, how Christ is the gate, right.
17:03
Like they talk about him being a shepherd guarding his flock or
17:05
his sheep. And he even talks about, I think
17:08
in all the Gospels about, you know, trying to go around the
17:10
gate and, and again, you know, Christ is visually represented
17:14
as the gate. So Uncle Robert tried to cut
17:16
him, put himself before the gate, which again is, is
17:19
completely unbiblical and and wicked.
17:22
But in his case it was very effective.
17:25
Yep, it's a it's a effective tool right there.
17:28
And you mentioned earlier how your family that we're not, that
17:31
we're not in the cult, played a role in you getting out of it.
17:34
Like how does that work for somebody else?
17:36
Like in that situation right there, how can like, you know,
17:39
the family members or the friends support someone that is
17:42
inside of a cult dynamic that doesn't realize it?
17:45
Yeah, that's a great question. So when when we were in the cult
17:48
or when I was in the cult, we lived in Idaho and Montana.
17:50
So I'm the youngest of five boys, so, you know, I got one
17:52
brother who lives in Charlotte near you.
17:54
And then I've got some other family members in Wisconsin and
17:57
California. They all kind of knew a little
17:59
bit about Uncle Robert. They had, you know, met him at
18:02
my wedding because he spoke at the wedding and they kind of
18:04
knew of him, but they didn't really know what was going on,
18:07
the inner workings of this little cult.
18:10
So then when I finally reached out to them, after Paige had
18:13
left me, she and Uncle Robert started to teach the children
18:16
that I was the devil, that I was a sperm donor.
18:19
I knew that I needed help. So I reached out to my family
18:24
and kind of told them and filled them in about what was going on.
18:26
And they immediately, you know, showered me with love and
18:29
affection and help and support that I needed.
18:32
And it was through them because they saw it right away, right?
18:35
Like they would see it immediately.
18:36
Like, wow, this guy is crazy. And even though I was only
18:39
brainwashed for about 2 1/2, three years, it took me a year,
18:42
Lee, to fully realize, wow, I was in a cult because I didn't
18:46
want to think it at first. And I would say nobody knows
18:49
they're in a cult. You only know you were in a
18:52
cult. And so when I finally realized,
18:55
oh, yeah, I was in a cult because cults at their
18:58
foundation at that, you know, at the base level, it's all about
19:01
undue mind control. And if it's working, you don't
19:04
know you're in a cult. You think it's something better,
19:06
right? That's absolutely true, right?
19:08
That you do think it's something better, right that yes, I had to
19:12
give you a round of applause for that right there, because that
19:14
is so that is so that's so I got goosebumps.
19:17
That's so unbelievably true because like you don't realize
19:20
it until you're out of it and then then that's the goal of the
19:23
cult right there to help to make it to make it seem like you're
19:26
not in a cult like everybody else is in a cult right like you
19:29
have the you have the right way of thinking.
19:32
Everybody else is wrong. You listen to Uncle Robert
19:34
listen listen to this right here.
19:36
That is, you know, wow, that's that's got my mind thinking
19:41
right there and whatnot. So I also wrote down a question
19:44
right here. So what happens if like the
19:47
person that's in the cult cuts off the family?
19:50
What can the family do in that situation right there?
19:52
Yeah. And I was going to follow up
19:54
with, you know, the idea about, you know, you don't know you're
19:56
in a cult. Everybody who knows you are in
19:57
the cult is outside of it, right?
19:59
So your family members, they can see it.
20:01
They're the ones that know what's going on.
20:03
And so in my case, we didn't completely cut off the rest of
20:05
my family. Paige had cut off some of her
20:07
siblings and they were vilified and shunned viciously, all at
20:11
the direction of Uncle Robert. And it's a, it's a tough
20:15
situation because again, the person in the cult needs help.
20:19
You on the outside know they need help.
20:20
But if you could go and talk to them and you kind of explain it,
20:24
then that person can go right back into the cult, whatever
20:27
that looks like. And then the cult leader takes
20:29
him 10-15 minutes using this coded language, and all of a
20:33
sudden, immediately whatever the family members have told this
20:36
person is forgotten, right? So that coded language, the
20:39
manipulative use of words used by the cult leader, all of a
20:43
sudden all of that is undone. What you really need to do is
20:47
get that person in the cult completely removed from the cult
20:50
leader. Easier said than done.
20:52
In my case, I was kind of cut out when my wife left me.
20:56
I kind of got kicked out of the cult and so it was a lot easier
20:59
for me because then all of my family had access to me.
21:04
For the person that's still in the cult, it's hard, but really
21:06
what it goes, what it comes down to is you've got to get that
21:09
person removed so he or she is not going to go right back and
21:13
hear the cult leader with those words again.
21:16
OK, yeah, 'cause I, I talked to a lot of people in these
21:19
situations, like maybe not as deeply in a cult, like a actual
21:22
cult, but like in a narcissistic family dynamic that that kind of
21:25
runs itself like a cult when they will just cut off the
21:28
outside world, like any type of outside influence at the beck
21:33
and call of that narcissistic family leader or the cult
21:36
leader, right? They'll cut them off and
21:37
there'll be no contact. I haven't seen my daughter in
21:40
years. And then they'll reach out out
21:42
of nowhere. It's like in three years since I
21:43
hear from her and I just got a message from her.
21:45
What do I do? And I was just like, it just, it
21:49
can be a shocking situation to be a part of right there.
21:51
So thanks for sharing it because it can be tough.
21:54
And I know like you just say your family wasn't completely
21:56
always like cut off and whatnot. But what like when your wife you
22:01
say your wife left you, did she cut you off from the entire
22:03
family dynamic? Like the kids and stuff as well?
22:05
Yeah, and that's right. You know, I figured we should
22:08
head there next because, you know, we have the five children
22:10
and and they were taught some awful things.
22:12
You know, in high conflict divorce, we call a parental
22:14
alienation where one parent tries to alienate the kids from
22:18
the other. And, and Paige, you know what
22:20
was off the charts? I mean the kids in addition
22:22
being taught that I was the devil and a bloodline and sperm
22:24
donor and Satan the sorcerer, she taught them things like the
22:27
5th commandment of the Bible, which says honor thy father and
22:30
mother didn't apply to me because it only applied to
22:32
parents or fathers who love their children.
22:35
My children literally thought that they did not need to honor
22:38
me because of what Paige had said.
22:40
And it all came from Robert into Paige and then into the kids.
22:44
So when she left me, yes, she took the three youngest kids
22:47
with her to to to Idaho where she was living with her parents
22:50
at the time. And then my family was very
22:52
alarmed when they found this out.
22:54
They helped me secure some good attorneys and Page eventually
22:58
filed for divorce. And then when the courts got
23:00
involved, we got a garden at litem involved.
23:02
When they saw this, it took a few minutes, right?
23:04
Like it was so obvious, horrific parental alienation and then a
23:08
small cult involvement, which is abusive to kids.
23:11
So the three youngest children were sent back to me.
23:14
You know, she had taken them when she left the court, sent
23:16
them back to me and they lived with me.
23:17
And so I've, you know, I've been a single dad now for seven years
23:20
and I'm not a big fan of the courts and having no government
23:24
involved in my life. But they got it right and they
23:26
really got it right in my case. And I'm very thankful for the
23:28
help I got. Oh wow, that is that is good
23:31
because it I I hear some of these stories sometimes.
23:35
Like, the partner who's still in the cult will abscond with the
23:39
children and disappear. You know, this, this situation
23:42
happens all the time. Like, it's like, yeah, we were
23:45
going through divorce and this cult is off the record or off
23:49
the books or whatever, just kind of lives off the lamb.
23:51
We don't know where they are, so they just take the kids and
23:53
disappear. But whatever the case may be.
23:56
We've had multiple garden ad litems and a parenting
23:58
evaluator. There's been a standing master
24:01
and the judge, multiple attorneys and counselors and
24:05
literally everybody agrees. It's not like, well, you know,
24:08
maybe it's Peter's fault or well, you know, I could see
24:10
Paige doing this better. Every single one of them sees it
24:13
right away for what it is, parental alienation and, and a
24:16
cult. And it's been unanimous,
24:19
thankfully. And, and, and so I've been
24:21
rescued and my kids have because of that, right?
24:23
So we've been reunited. OK, yeah, I'm I'm happy to hear
24:27
that right there. So with with the book taken off
24:32
and you doing these speaking events and things like that, has
24:35
she heard about any of that? Is she like Privy to any of that
24:37
information? Yes, she has.
24:40
And you know, I've had several people read my book and they'll
24:43
honestly, they'll say, hey, why did you give her such a pass?
24:46
Why were you so kind to her? And in my book, I didn't want to
24:49
tear her apart. I wasn't to demean her and RIP
24:52
her apart. It was to show the strength and
24:54
the power of the cult. It was meant to expose Uncle
24:57
Robert, right? And expose him.
25:00
And then also expose the dangers of small but destructive
25:02
religious cults to help hopefully warn people so they
25:05
don't do what I did. But I never meant to try and,
25:08
you know, drag her through the mud because really, you know,
25:11
she's a victim just like I am. She just doesn't know it yet.
25:14
Her life has been turned upside down because of Uncle Robert.
25:18
Now it's been her choice all these years to follow him and to
25:21
believe him. But I do believe deep down she
25:24
is a victim. And so, yes, she does know that
25:26
I do these podcasts. She has read the book and you
25:29
know, she, she's not happy about it.
25:30
She still thinks I'm I'm in the wrong.
25:33
And then I'm just kind of making all of this up.
25:35
So there has been some contact between y'all two since since
25:39
since then. Well, there's been very little
25:40
other than a recent court filing.
25:42
She was very upset about all of this.
25:44
So she actually filed something in the courts to try and have me
25:47
held in contempt of court. You know, again, I, I, I don't
25:52
use her real name and I and I, I don't know, I don't bash her
25:55
when I do these interviews. That's not the goal.
25:57
The goal is not to just air my dirty laundry about a divorce.
25:59
It is to expose the dangers of small cults.
26:03
Because Lee, I used to be a sports broadcaster.
26:05
I was on ESPNI was on CBF while I'm in this cult, right?
26:08
And nobody had any idea. And so that's the goal, is to
26:14
expose it from that angle, not to try and get back at her.
26:19
So and I and I felt that even at the beginning when we, when you
26:24
were detailing how you met her and she was born into it, I
26:27
could just can tell you were coming from a place of, of
26:31
empathy when you described it. He's like, oh, she's this
26:33
horrible, evil person. No, she was born into it.
26:36
And as you know, like you said earlier, you don't know you're
26:39
in a cult until you get out of it.
26:40
And this has been her entire life, right?
26:43
This is how old is she knows. Yeah, and, you know, when I met
26:46
her, I mean, I literally thought this is the woman of my dreams.
26:48
I thought for the first few years of our marriage, I was the
26:50
best husband ever. She was the best wife ever.
26:52
And and then obviously the bloom fell off the Rose as the years
26:56
went on. But I never wanted a divorce.
26:58
I really fought it as as much as I could.
27:01
I really hoped this incredible story, right?
27:03
We we both come out of this cult and we salvage our marriage and
27:07
wow, what a beautiful testimony. And it wasn't meant to be.
27:10
But that was my thinking for a long time.
27:12
I I never wanted to get divorced or have my family ripped apart
27:15
like this. And then when she got divorced,
27:19
I'm assuming that she she didn't marry Uncle Robert.
27:22
Is she? Because I feel like that whole
27:23
baby situation was kind of wild. No.
27:26
And people have asked that, you know, was there any kind of
27:27
sexual abuse or grooming going on?
27:29
I don't know. I don't think so.
27:31
I know of nothing. To me, it was all emotional,
27:34
spiritual and mental abuse. And I hope that's all it was For
27:38
my vantage point. I didn't see anything untoward
27:40
physically or sexually. She did not marry him.
27:43
She has remarried, you know, and I try not to share too many
27:46
details. So our, you know, it's, we don't
27:49
talk much. Yeah, unfortunately.
27:52
OK, Oh man, so that is, yeah, being on ESPN and CBS, all that
27:58
other stuff. And while actively being in the
28:00
cult kind of shows you how it just, it doesn't necessarily
28:04
affect your how people view you to in the world, you know, in
28:08
the out here in the world, people just don't view you
28:10
differently. Oh, that's, that's Peter.
28:12
He's in the cult. Watch out for him, right?
28:14
They just like you, just you, you know?
28:16
Yeah, you bring up a great point.
28:18
Because cults can easily hide within society, right?
28:21
Like, we didn't shave our heads. I didn't wear some big, like,
28:24
robe or something. I wasn't around town banging a
28:26
drum. We didn't commit mass suicide.
28:28
I was a ESPN sports broadcaster and no one had any idea.
28:32
And I can remember, Lee, I kind of knew that things were bad,
28:35
that my marriage was in jeopardy and I'm doing a football game on
28:38
ESPN and it was at the University of Idaho.
28:41
I can't matter who they're playing.
28:43
And I had my sheet in front of me that has all the stats, you
28:45
know, the players name, their number, their hometown, height,
28:47
weight, through all that, head coaches record everything,
28:50
right? We call that like our, you know,
28:51
our sheet that we work off of. And, and throughout there were
28:55
like little verses I'd written and little sayings so that I
28:58
could get through the game because I was so anxious and so
29:00
fearful that my life was crumbling in front of me.
29:03
And so I'm trying to call the game here on ESPN.
29:06
And then I'm also in my mind, without saying it, though,
29:08
reading these little Bible verses to, to calm me down.
29:12
What a strange experience that was.
29:14
But cult members will always feel doubt.
29:18
You know what? In Christianity, there's victory
29:20
in Christ, right? That's a, that's a phrase,
29:22
right? We have victory in Christ.
29:23
You will never experience victory under a cult leader
29:27
because they will always have you doubting your every single
29:31
thought and word. And that's how they maintain
29:35
that power and control over you because you live in doubt then
29:38
the the entirety of the time that you're in within that cult
29:41
dynamic. Ah, goodness gracious.
29:44
So you, you mentioned faith again.
29:46
So what role does faith play in? Like reclaiming your life after
29:50
you leave the after you leave the cult or the toxic influence?
29:53
Yeah. So some people have said, hey,
29:55
it's great that you know, you didn't turn your back on your
29:56
faith after all this. And I answer, well, I wouldn't
29:59
be here if I didn't have my faith.
30:01
I was never suicidal, but I had really hit rock bottom.
30:04
I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, I was a wreck.
30:05
It was a really bad year when I went through all that, but I
30:08
recovered. And so now, you know, I don't
30:10
have a family guru, you know, that I look towards or I'm
30:13
afraid of. I don't have a wife that I'm
30:15
afraid of not walking around on egg shells.
30:17
If I have an issue or a problem or I'm afraid or whatever it is,
30:21
I can go straight to the Lord, right?
30:22
And the Bible talks about we can call him ABBA Father, our father
30:26
in the Lord, right, And just go straight to him.
30:29
There's a chapter in the Bible from James chapter 1 and a
30:32
paraphrase that it says, listen, if you're, if you lack wisdom,
30:34
ask and he'll give it to you. But don't doubt.
30:37
And so I have done that. So I am a million times stronger
30:40
now as a man, I was a shadow of a man.
30:43
It's embarrassing how wimpy and, and scared I was, you know, 7-8
30:46
years ago. I'm a million times stronger
30:48
now, Lee. And I don't say that arrogantly.
30:50
I say that because the Lord has taken me from this horrible
30:54
position and I've experienced all this pain and I've used that
30:57
kind of like the phoenix right to rise from the ashes.
31:00
And now I'm much stronger man. And I thank the Lord for that.
31:03
I wish I could have learned this lesson a different way.
31:06
Yeah, Yeah. So with that being said right
31:09
there, like with him, with Uncle Robert being intermediary to God
31:15
or just playing the middleman, was it different trying to
31:18
establish a new like wreak that reconnection?
31:21
I know you said you didn't, you never lost your faith and would
31:23
not. Was it different when he was
31:25
removed though? Like did it feel different?
31:26
Like immediately reconnecting to God with this new perspective
31:30
without him in the middle of it? Yeah, you know, a lot of people
31:34
talk about, well, you know, do you experience shame or guilt
31:35
because you, you know, you got sucked into this cult And, and
31:37
no, I don't experience any of that at all.
31:39
There's a million different ways it could happen, right, That
31:41
somebody could get sucked in. For me, it was trying to get
31:43
along with my wife and save my marriage.
31:45
But you know, when I finally had the, the realization where the
31:48
Lord open my eyes and ears to the truth, there was a little
31:50
bit of shame. Like, Oh my gosh, like what an
31:52
idiot. Why did I do this?
31:53
Of course there is forgiveness, right?
31:55
But I will say this, though, and there was a, a Paige's younger
31:59
sister, she got shunned and kicked out of the cult 25 years
32:02
ago. I mean, they treated her
32:03
viciously. She and I reconnected because I
32:06
didn't talk to her at all for for most of my marriage to her,
32:08
Paige. But she and I reconnected.
32:10
And we kind of, you know, we're swapping stories, right, of our
32:12
experience in this cult. And she said it may take you
32:15
years to not hear Uncle Robert's voice in your head.
32:21
And it didn't take years, but it probably took almost a year
32:25
where I would hear a pastor speak or I would read a Bible
32:29
verse and I would hear his interpretation, his voice in my
32:34
head. Thankfully, I don't hear that
32:36
anymore, but I'm sure a lot of cult leaders will excuse me.
32:40
Cult members will have that where there's this residue that
32:44
takes a long time to kind of wash away from you and, and I
32:50
and I think that's probably normal for people that they get
32:52
out of a cult. It's just it's not an overnight
32:56
transformation. Is there anything you feel like
32:59
you did in particular to help with that transition right there
33:01
to like get rid of that residue that you just mentioned, like
33:04
your night not necessarily hearing his voice anymore and
33:07
whatnot? Yeah.
33:09
So, you know, I always tell people that when you are
33:13
isolated, when you become isolated, then you become very
33:15
vulnerable to a con artist, a narcissist or a cult leader,
33:20
right? Again, in the Bible talks about
33:22
the body of Christ. So if I cut off my thumb, I'm
33:24
not going to die. My thumb will die, right.
33:26
OK. So when we became cut off, I
33:27
didn't really have other people that I was listening to.
33:30
It was only Uncle Robert. Well, when I got out of the
33:33
cult, then I started to listen to other people and I would have
33:36
several people in my life leave that I would listen to.
33:39
Some I would agree with, some I didn't.
33:41
But the key was I was no longer isolated.
33:44
I was interacting and having good, healthy conversations with
33:49
other believers, other people that I admired and respected,
33:52
hearing different viewpoints. And that was a new thing because
33:55
I only heard one voice for so long.
33:58
And So what really helped me was then being vulnerable, telling
34:02
everybody, here's what happened, here's what I went through.
34:05
And then those people could then speak into my life.
34:08
And that was just, that was awesome when when I finally got
34:10
that back in my life. That's good, that's good that
34:14
people are well, you can tell you a story and people will be
34:16
there for you. And like, I think it's important
34:18
too because like when people get out of these cult dynamics, so
34:21
just leave the cult to have some like if they've turned on people
34:25
before to for people not to necessarily like shun them when
34:28
they get out of it, right? Because like, I think especially
34:32
in today's society, when you see somebody leaving a cult and that
34:34
cult has done some harm, they besides the person is leaving
34:38
the cult. They're like, no, just stay over
34:40
there. We know you did some horrible
34:41
things, like you were in this cult, you were a bad person.
34:44
You cut everybody off. We don't want anything to do
34:46
with you. I don't think that necessarily
34:47
help is the person that is trying to leave.
34:50
They seem like it might make the one actually go back.
34:53
Right, Correct. So one of the fears is that, you
34:55
know, if you do not toe the line, if you question the cult
34:58
leader and if you, you know, do get kicked out, that you will be
35:01
shunned. You know that.
35:02
And I knew that. So I I knew I would never have a
35:04
relationship with Uncle Robert or Paige's parents or maybe
35:08
never with Paige. I don't know.
35:09
But yes, you know, as someone that sees the person in the cult
35:14
and let's say they'd said some horrible things to you.
35:16
Yeah. You got to be patient.
35:18
You got to be loving. And you have to know where
35:19
they're coming from. Like with my kids, several of my
35:23
children said some really horrible things to me.
35:26
I had one child look in the eye and said, you're a devil.
35:28
No soul. I had another child to tell me
35:31
that I do not need to honor you because the 5th Commandment
35:33
doesn't apply to you. Another child tell me that you
35:35
know you are you are a devil. You're a sperm donor and a
35:38
bloodline and I hate you. I don't want to be anything like
35:40
you. And as a parent, those hurt so
35:43
much. I mean, it's like a knife in the
35:45
heart and A twist. But I'm not angry at those kids.
35:48
And even in that moment, Lee, I wasn't angry because I knew it
35:51
wasn't them. It's like a computer virus from
35:54
Uncle Robert went into Page and into the kids.
35:56
And kids are impressionable. So the computer virus went in
35:59
and it came out on me and and they don't say those things
36:02
anymore, right? But you know, there before the
36:05
grace of God go I because the only reason I have patience of
36:08
and forgiveness is because the Lord has given it to me.
36:13
That's good. I feel like patience isn't this
36:15
is is a necessity when you're trying to, you know, reintegrate
36:18
people out of the cult. Like when they finally do leave,
36:21
when they try to get out of there, that patience is
36:23
definitely, definitely needed and part of a place of
36:25
forgiveness as well. Like you just say it like even
36:28
though the kids say that it's good, say some horrible things
36:30
to you. It's just like it hurts to hear.
36:32
I know it hurt to hear that type of I'm when I heard you say it.
36:35
I like, I can imagine, like that would destroy me, even though
36:39
you know where it's coming from. It's kind of like his voice
36:42
coming through them. It's like the trick, the trickle
36:44
down effect right there. Yeah.
36:45
And, and when I left too, real quick.
36:47
So when I, when I kind of got out of the cult, you know, and
36:49
my family kind of helped me out and really showered me with love
36:52
and affection and tension. Yeah.
36:54
I'm sure there were plenty of times for this first few months
36:56
where they were shaking their head like, oh, good Lord, Peter,
36:58
like, when are you going to get it?
36:58
When are you going to wake up and see it?
37:00
And they had to be very, very patient with me.
37:03
And they were. Yeah, I'm happy.
37:06
I'm glad it worked out for you. You're able to share your
37:08
message and help so many people when they do decide to leave or
37:11
maybe maybe even if they are still in it and they just come
37:13
across your material or see some interviews and whatnot as well.
37:18
And I know we mentioned earlier like that not all cults like are
37:22
out there, just huge cults. Like some of them are very, very
37:25
small. Like the one you just say it,
37:26
the one you were in. Like, so how do those small
37:29
cults like form inside of families or marriages or like
37:32
communities of faith without people just even noticing it,
37:35
right? Because like you said, people
37:37
didn't know you were in it and whatnot.
37:39
You were out here on TV and stuff.
37:41
You know, it's a great question, Lee.
37:42
And I'll be honest, I don't know how they start.
37:44
Like, I don't know what made Uncle Robert turn into this
37:48
horrible person. I don't know what drove him to
37:51
establish this relationship where he was above us and he was
37:54
manipulating all of us and brainwashing us.
37:56
I don't know what started it. What I can answer and tell you
37:59
is that it's able to continue. It's able to thrive because of
38:04
the isolation, the secrecy and paranoia.
38:07
So like you will never have, let's say like a little tiny
38:10
cult, like let's say our little group on your Uncle Robert, he
38:12
would have never survived if we were all going to the same
38:15
church, right? Or we were, you know, going to
38:16
the Baptist Church, the Presbyterian Church, whatever it
38:18
was, we had to be isolated on, on our own.
38:22
So I can tell you very clearly how they survive and how they
38:25
can continue, but I really don't.
38:28
I'll be honest, I don't know how they start.
38:30
And, and I would, I would love to find out because it certainly
38:34
affected my life. And I, and I was wondering what
38:37
was it inside of him, what synapse in his brain kind of
38:40
misfired that led him to go down this road and, and really be the
38:45
cause of the destruction of several families and this huge
38:49
real effect. I'm talking about Uncle Robert,
38:50
right? Because of all the damage that
38:52
he caused. If if I were to put my my
38:54
narcissist hat on, right, and I was just like, how do I start a
38:57
cult? I wouldn't know how to do that.
38:59
I think sometimes they might start accidentally, like in
39:02
these situations right here, like they just try something out
39:04
and it works and like, Oh, that worked.
39:07
You believe that, you know, and it's just like, oh, what else
39:10
can I do? So you start to kind of, like
39:12
you said, slowly and subtly, because if you go too fast,
39:14
people will realize, like if I were, if I was Uncle Robin, I
39:18
just met you like our first meeting.
39:20
I'm like, you know what, Peter, the Bible's not real.
39:22
You Whoa, wait a minute. You would just take off running,
39:24
right? You wouldn't want to be around.
39:26
But I think it's like the slow, subtle stuff where they see what
39:29
they can get away with. Like they they have these test
39:32
subjects and like you just said, her parents were kind of right
39:34
for the picking. You find the right person, the
39:37
right personality type to fall into it and listening and slowly
39:40
convert that person. I don't think that's the goal is
39:43
like, how do I start this organization to take over?
39:45
Right? I don't think this the
39:46
mentality. It could be that's psychopathic,
39:48
right, If you go to that deep. But I think just from my
39:51
perspective, if I were to try to do that, it would just start
39:54
with a fear, my own fear of being alone and being powerless.
39:59
And then how do I keep people around?
40:00
How do I convince these people like that I'm the one?
40:04
And that's why my mind would go into it right there.
40:06
I need to find ways to cultivate fear.
40:09
It's because I have fear too. I feel like, I feel like he
40:11
started his own cult out of his own fear of being powerless or
40:15
being alone and wanted to keep people around him for a long
40:18
period of time. This is my mindset when I was
40:20
just put my narcissist hat on. Just think about it right there.
40:23
Well, you, you brought up a great point in what you just
40:26
said, and that is that, you know, cult leaders don't start
40:29
off with utter nonsense and lies and falsehood.
40:31
Otherwise nobody would believe them, nobody would follow them.
40:34
They start off with the truth. And it sounds really good.
40:37
Even now I can say there's a lot I learned from Uncle Robert that
40:40
I would say is right with really good ideas about economics and
40:43
faith. And it was history.
40:45
You name it. And then they take that truth
40:48
and then they slowly twist it, right.
40:51
But they don't just come out out of the gates like a clown and
40:54
spouting utter nonsense. They've got to be far more
40:57
subtle and patient. And and the ones that are
40:59
successful are very subtle and patient.
41:02
Yeah, because he, like I say, if you if you just sue grandiose
41:04
it, it just doesn't work like that.
41:06
Like like you just said, just like the Bible is just a blind
41:09
book. People are just like, yeah,
41:10
Uncle Robert. That's my Uncle Robert.
41:11
He's kind of crazy. Stay away from him, right?
41:14
Because that wouldn't work over time.
41:16
Yeah. You know, this, this crazy Uncle
41:18
Robert over there, just like he going, he going to say some
41:20
crazy stuff there. Just don't listen to him.
41:22
Just like just smile and like smile and wave at him.
41:24
It wouldn't work right there. So how has sports played a role
41:29
just in your entire journey right now?
41:30
I know you say when you were growing up you wanted to be
41:33
Larry Bird and things like that, but how has sports played a role
41:37
in like getting out of the cult and just in your overall life
41:41
right now, like writing books and things like that?
41:44
So I've written two other novels as well about Faith in
41:46
Basketball, The Blue Team and then Wardrobe of the Wolf.
41:48
Working on a third one. So it'll be a trilogy.
41:51
A fascinating little point, though, Lee, is that Uncle
41:54
Robert wouldn't know a basketball from a watermelon.
41:56
He would not know golf from tennis.
41:58
He didn't know anything about sports.
42:00
And so he hated the fact that I love sports.
42:03
And I would use sports as a metaphor for life, right?
42:06
Like if you've ever been on a team, sports teach you so much
42:09
respect for authority and hard work and discipline, etcetera,
42:13
etcetera. Right, And I love that about
42:15
sports. OK, so Christ talked in
42:18
parables, he used agriculture. That's just because was audience
42:20
knew. I love using sports to help
42:23
share the gospel because it's so applicable to every aspect of
42:26
her life. And Uncle Robert hated it.
42:28
He hated me doing that because he didn't know anything about
42:30
sports. So I still do that.
42:32
I still write, I'm still a storyteller and, and I almost
42:36
always my stories revolve around sports.
42:40
I don't play much basketball anymore, but I still call some
42:44
local high school games and I still write.
42:47
And but that's me. I'll I'll always, sports will
42:50
always be very important to me. And that's, that's, that's a
42:53
good thing right there because like you said, sports does teach
42:56
so many other things other than the actual sport, you know,
42:59
other than the actual basketball and things like that.
43:01
But like, well, uncle, is he still, is he still alive right
43:04
now? Do you know if he's still alive?
43:06
As far as I know he is still alive.
43:08
I have not had any communication with him since 2018.
43:12
We had a parenting evaluation a year ago because again, it's
43:15
still very contentious in the in the courts.
43:17
And based on who the evaluator spoke with, I'm 99% sure Uncle
43:22
Uncle Robert's still around. Yeah.
43:24
OK. I was just curious to see if
43:25
he's still out here in the world like doing this, doing this
43:28
thing or trying to get somebody else into the kind of sworn into
43:31
his cult or whatever. And this cult leaders don't like
43:37
giving up power, even if they get elderly and whatnot as well,
43:40
even in their their later years, they still try to hold on the
43:44
power until the very last possible second.
43:47
I don't think is there anybody else that's in the wings to take
43:51
over if he's something would have happened to him.
43:53
I'm just curious about that because like sometimes he didn't
43:55
have a male heir. Right.
43:57
Yeah. And I don't, you know, his sons,
43:59
by the way, never came to our little conferences.
44:00
We would have these conferences a couple of times a year.
44:03
We'd meet in northern Idaho and then basically we'd just sit for
44:05
2-3 days and listen to him talk some crazy stuff.
44:08
And the sons never came. So I don't even know if they
44:10
believe everything he talks about.
44:12
As far as I know, he still doesn't have a grandson.
44:14
But to me, this kind of points out the difference between,
44:17
let's say, a cult, a true cult, small or big, and dysfunctional
44:21
culture. So like, you could have a false
44:22
religion or dysfunctional culture where you might have
44:25
more than one leader, more than one narcissist.
44:28
To me, that's not a cult because a cult leader would never share
44:31
power, right? And so not only would they never
44:34
share power, but they probably don't even have a succession
44:37
plan because no one is. No one can live up to them, even
44:40
if it's a son or a daughter, Like no one will ever be able to
44:44
do the things that he or she, the cult leader did.
44:47
So, you know, when Uncle Robert passes on, what happens?
44:51
I don't know. My thought is that it just kind
44:52
of goes away. I don't see anybody else picking
44:55
up the torch. See him ever grooming anybody to
44:58
pick up the torch. Yeah, it seemed like he just
45:00
wanted to like, say, just concentrate power within himself
45:03
and just hold on to it as long as possible.
45:05
And I think that that's true with with most cults out here in
45:08
the world. And like you just said, I, I
45:10
don't think most cults, most real cults only have one true
45:14
leader. I just don't think they they
45:16
share power like that because they wouldn't be wouldn't be a
45:18
cult. It'd be something different,
45:19
right, If he's the family system or some of the kind of case.
45:23
Yeah, it does. Sorry, it doesn't.
45:24
It doesn't fit the makeup, the psychological makeup of the cult
45:28
leader of that narcissistic who has a very grandiose sense of
45:31
mission and of self. They would never allow someone
45:35
else to to share power. They would never see somebody
45:38
else just saying. Wow, Yeah, he's a great leader,
45:40
just like me. They're they're incapable of
45:42
that. I don't think they will ever say
45:44
that right there. Just like you're just like me.
45:46
I like the fact that you're just like me and so close to me and
45:50
everybody around. I feel like they will, they will
45:52
immediately get you booted out of there, right?
45:53
Is they will find a way to get you out of there.
45:56
Yeah. And so do you kind of feel like
45:58
he felt that way about you coming along, like he felt
46:00
threatened by you to a certain extent?
46:02
Yeah, so, you know, again, I've had a lot of time to think about
46:05
this and Mull it over like, you know, put the puzzle pieces
46:08
together of how my life got destroyed and my marriage got
46:10
destroyed. Clearly for Uncle Robert that
46:14
his number one prized possession was paid.
46:18
She's got 2 master's degrees, She's tall, beautiful and well
46:22
spoken. And you know, Uncle Robert's
46:24
this short little portly guy who's bald, who doesn't really
46:27
have a real job, has no money and no measurable success in his
46:31
life, right? Well, all sudden you now have
46:34
Paige hanging on his every word. Paige gives Uncle Robert instant
46:38
cachet. She gives him kind of authority
46:42
and a sense of I am a success in this world, right?
46:45
So here I am now. I'm kind of Johnny come lately
46:48
because I come into Paige's life when she's in her 20s and he's
46:51
known her since she was born. And so yeah, I think he probably
46:55
did see me as a threat. And oh, by the way, the title of
46:58
my book, Stop the Tall Man Save the Tiger, comes from a
47:02
fascinating dream Paige had shortly before she met me, in
47:06
which Uncle Robert twisted it on his head 180° and was able to
47:11
use that dream to manipulate Paige and further cement his
47:14
control over her life. It's a fascinating story, a
47:18
fascinating dream that I truly believe the Lord gave her, which
47:20
was to warn her of this guy in her life that was destroying
47:25
her. And then in the dream, a tall
47:27
man walks in, but she can't see the face of the tall man in the
47:30
dream. She hadn't met me yet.
47:31
And I'm 6 foot 5 Lee, and Uncle Robert's like 5 foot six.
47:35
He was able to twist it around and cement his control over her
47:38
and, and I truly believe that the Lord meant that dream to be
47:42
a warning to help rescue Paige. And in that regard, it's kind of
47:46
a tragedy. Yeah, Oh my goodness.
47:48
I was asked how tall you were earlier when you said she was
47:50
six one. I was just like, how tall are
47:53
you? You mean if she's 61 out loud, I
47:57
might be about to save, hide or whatever.
47:59
So is there anything else you want to share with the audience
48:01
about leaving a cult, recognizing the signs or
48:05
anything like that? You know, I would just, I always
48:07
tell people there's, there's three key points to my book and,
48:10
and my story that I want to share.
48:12
The first one I already shared. And that is that, you know, in a
48:15
successful marriage, a strong marriage, you should have Christ
48:17
in the center. Nobody else, like everybody else
48:18
can help from the outside, the parent, the priest, the pastor,
48:21
everybody else. OK.
48:22
And then #2 don't allow yourself to become isolated.
48:26
When you are isolated, you are then vulnerable.
48:29
Think about an animal in the Serengeti, right?
48:30
The deer, the antelope, the gazelle, whatever it is, if
48:32
they're alone, you're in trouble.
48:34
OK. The third thing would be that,
48:37
you know, Christianity is kind of simple, really, when you
48:39
break it down that you believe you're born again, you're saved,
48:42
and then you grow in your faith, right?
48:44
So we call being born again. Well, anybody tries to switch
48:47
the order, he's acting as a gatekeeper to God.
48:49
And that's what Uncle Robert did.
48:50
In other words, you have to know or realize or read or do certain
48:54
things before you can be saved. That's unbiblical and unwicked,
48:58
and that's wicked. You got to run from that person.
49:01
So those are the three main lessons that I like to impart to
49:04
the audience. All right, well, thank, thank
49:06
you for I really enjoy talking to you.
49:09
I love like I said, I'm going to take a lot of these bits.
49:12
That whole intermediary in between God, that I I put that
49:17
in my wallet. Anytime I use it, I will
49:19
reference you. I promise you I'll just because
49:20
that was I was like, wait, that may because I see, I see like
49:24
when people tell the story, I see it in like I have like a
49:26
little mini movie in my head. So I just see like the, the
49:29
message from God and them them intercepting the message like a
49:32
cold talker. And then it's like God didn't
49:35
say that. You know what?
49:35
God really said you should do this.
49:37
I'm like, that's great. That's wow.
49:38
So thank you. Thank you for sharing that and
49:40
thank you for joining me and speaking with me today, man,
49:42
like seriously, I really, truly appreciate it.
49:45
I you blew my mind with a lot of different things.
49:47
I was, I was super interested in, in like the cult dynamics
49:50
because I, I feel like the they do resonate, like I said, the
49:53
family dynamics with narcissism and whatnot as well.
49:56
So thank you so much for coming on and I really, truly
49:59
appreciate it. And I, like I said, when it,
50:00
when it goes live, I'll shoot you an e-mail and we'll connect
50:03
and whatever and whatnot. And I'll put the links on there
50:06
and I'm going to get your book. I want to read it, say the
50:08
topic. I'm going to definitely go get
50:09
your book and read it. And I will let you.
50:11
I will. I will leave a glowing review
50:13
for you, OK? Awesome.
50:15
Yeah. Thank you, Lee.
50:16
It's been great. Appreciate you having me on.
50:18
No problem. Thank you me.
50:20
That's this. Stop me to stop.