Latest / WoT Spoilers / The One He Lost & Reading The Commentary - The Gathering Storm chapter 47 & 48 - EP541

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The One He Lost & Reading The Commentary - The Gathering Storm chapter 47 & 48 - EP541 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: So today is an intense day in the books. This
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: is a very intense darthiest of darth, dearest of nay dear.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: It's more in the stone than intense. Really, I will
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: kick you off this podcast. There's something about the word
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: intense that just makes me absolutely go oh that that
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: really needs to be about being inside canvas tense.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: What did any of us do to have you inflicted
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: upon us?
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, I blame this is but please gout that a lot.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Please got that a lot. I want people to know
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Moving on from that terrible pun that I will be
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: leaving in the air, Okay, fine, we all have to
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: suffer to set terrible puns, regardless of where they came from.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: This is the darkest moment before the dawn kind of thing, right,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Veins of Gold is the return from this darkness. This
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: is the dark that prompts Veins of Gold.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Well, this is the moment right the whole I don't
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: want to be a threat to my loved ones. I
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: don't want to kill my loved ones. Rand has really
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: gotten to that point where that's the thing that makes
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: lewis He's the kinslayer, right, he's the person who turned
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: on his wife and children and all the rest of
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: his family and servants and murdered them. And that's the
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: thing that Rand didn't want to be, so in this moment,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: he really he sort of proves to himself that he
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: is insane. And that's where it's like, yeah, this is
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: this is the low point. This is the moment where
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: it's like, holy shit, I am as crazy as Lewis
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Tharn was because I was about to kill my father
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: for doing no more than mentioning Codswain.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Right, for doing no more than trying to help him
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: with an eyes to divee prompting not a killing offence.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: One would say, yeah, yeah, no, because it is. For
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: so much of the series he's been like not yet.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I'm not mad yet. I'm not losing it yet. I
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: still have a little longer. I can still hold on,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I can still become harder. And this is him going
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I seem to have run out of rope. There seems
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: to be no rope left.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I seem to be just crazy. Yeah.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Like there's no line that he won't cross now,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: you know, like semarog forced him with men. But this
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: is him choosing it with tim and that's just a
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: whole other level of no, you are as bad as
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Lou's barren ever was.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: There is no line even to yourself that you no lie.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: You can tell yourself like you did the thing almost
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: close enough.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, you stopped yourself, but only because you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: realized you were doing the thing.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Because he gets a chance to do again, because he
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: remembered his lives and the Dark One saved him because
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: lessons learned and iterative stuff. But also it's bad to
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: remember past lives. I'm not quite sure what the moral
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: there is, but.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think again the way Brandon Sanderson sort of
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: puts his thumb on it and is like, wow, I
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: couldn't have beat the Dark One without his corruption, it's
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: it steals something away from it, because I like think,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: just by pointing it out, it almost makes it like, Okay,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: then what are you trying to say there?
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: If you're gonna point it out, say something about it.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know I could do with a little less
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Sanderson thumbprint on the whole vans of Gold thing. But
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I do really like the cinematic darkness that is him
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: spiraling down the drain for these two chapters. So maybe
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: we should get into the reading, which is yours to
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: get started.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, the one he lost and our symbol is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: the dragon. What's the one he lost?
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Which one of the hands? Uh? It's that line about
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: two hands, one to destroy, the other to save, the
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: other to save which had he lost? And I don't
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: know that he needs to have such a binary sense
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: of saving the world versus death. But you know, again
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Darth Rand.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: And it seems like he changes his mind at veins
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: of Gold or I.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Mean being suggested in chat by pants, which mind didn't
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: because you know there are multiple minds in his brain, right,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I mean this one goes sils, not how I interpreted it,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: but that's actually maybe a good layer.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Rand did not return to his rooms immediately. The failed
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: meeting with the Borderlanders had left him feeling unhinged. Not
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: because of their tricky attempt to pull him into formatting.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: That was frustrating, but it was not unac inspected. People
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: always tried to control and manipulate him. The Borderlanders were
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: no different. No, it was something else that had unsettled him,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: something he couldn't quite define, and so he stalked through
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: the stone of Tyr two, aieal maidens trailing behind him,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: his present startling servants and unnerving defenders. The corridors twisted
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: and turned. The walls were unadorned by tapestry, were the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: color of wet sand, but they were far stronger than
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: any rock. Ran new, alien and strange, each smooth span
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a reminder that this place was not natural. Rand felt
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: the same way. He had the form of a human. Indeed,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: he had the mannerisms and history of one. But he
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: was a thing that no human, not even himself, could understand,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: a figure of legend, a creation of the One Power,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: as unnatural as tarangreal, or a fragment of quendiar. They
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: dressed him up like a king, just as they dressed
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: these corridors with tasseled gold and red rugs, just as
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: they hung the walls with those tapestries, each one depicting
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a famous Terran general. Those decorations were intended for beauty,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: but they were also intended to obscure. The patches of
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: naked wall highlighted how alien the place was. Rugs and
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: tapestries made it all feel more human, just as giving
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Rand a crown and a fine coat allowed them to
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: accept him. Kings were supposed to be a little different.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Never mind his much more alien nature hidden beneath the crown,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: never mind his heart of a man long dead, his
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: shoulders created to bear the weight of prophecy, his soul
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: crushed by the needs, wants, and hopes of a million people.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Two hands, one to destroy, the other to save. Which
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: had he lost? That was kind of a long reading,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: but I wanted to get to the title.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: I yeah, no, that was the correct lengthy and there
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: was only one read in length and that.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Was so Yeah, he's he's being weird, right. He doesn't
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: think of himself as human. He thinks of himself as
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: something made out of the power, the dragon reborn that
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: exists in some ways. He is right, He has these
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: memories that change who he is, that makes him something
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: very unique. Also, the amount of power he has, it
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: is at his disposal.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, also there's a healthy way to
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: deal with that in an unhealthy way, and the healthy
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: way would be to actually talk with all of his
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: other friends who have demigod powers and have a you know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: support group where they all talk about how they have
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: different but similar struggles. But he's doing here is the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: unhealthy thing where he's taking it all on himself and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: making it out into a like persecution complex and isolating
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and ruminating and just not having anyone but himself to
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: talk to about it, and really just getting lost in
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: time and in space, like he's running through the hallway
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: for hours on end, just trying to like forget in
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: the strain of physical exertions. He needs a support group.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: He needs us, a port group of tavern and super
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: powerful channelers where they all just talk about their feelings.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the pattern's like, hey, here's your buddies. You have gateways,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: here's your buddies, here's where they are. Open a gateway,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: go say hi. I mean he's like, fuck that. I like,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: because he has everything he needs. Open a gateway and
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: go visit them. We see god swayin do it right
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: from his vision. She opens a gateway and goes and
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: visits paren Right. So why why is he not you know,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: seeking out his friends.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he thinks he's he's internalized a specific take
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: of the prophecies that make him feel like there's one
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: way to be And again, you need to talk to
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: someone other than yourself in order to learn that. Maybe
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: some of your assumptions are wrong, and maybe there's alternative
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: explanations to what you thought was absolutely set in stone,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: because you've literally really never bounced your ideas off of
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: a single other person.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: He tried to talk with Maureene about the prophecies, but
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone else has ever, you know, really
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: been having that conversation with him this whole time. And
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: yet he's making all of these decisions about how he
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: should dissociate and how he should see himself as alien
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: and separate, and like this is all stuff that is
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: really baked into his interpretation of how the prophecies go.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I give Men props for becoming a
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: philosophy major on her own home study in just a
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: couple of months, but Rand is giving himself even more
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: credit than Min is claiming, and he has had way
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: less time and energy to devote to it than she has. Like, Rand,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: you need to be bouncing some of these ideas off
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: of someone like you. He had Herod Fell for a
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: little bit that was good, and then Harod Fell got
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: killed and he has not picked these conversations up with
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: men to the same degree, at least not on this
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: on page that we've seen. It's just like, you know,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: this is the autistic struggle, just ruminating on your own,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: like specific way of looking at the world, and you
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: have no idea that these are actually really normal struggles,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: even if they are unique. You know, he has lots
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: of friends who have similar struggles that most normal people
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: can't understand. Right, It's like, yet, you're not all the
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: dragon reborn, but none of you are as strong as
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: nine Eve, right. None of you have battle memories specifically
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: like Matt, none of you have wolf smell like parents.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: You all have unique stuff going on, And.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like this chapter is these actually pair of
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: chapters is very much about the use of calendar in
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: the Last Battle.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of like the Undertipe, like it's also
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: about Ran. But what I didn't realize when I first
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: read them is how much these are really about why
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Rand needs to use calendar in the Last Battle big time, yeah,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and why the children call and what he's really ruminating
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: over in the beginning of this chapter is yes, himself
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: and what's going on with him, but also his failure
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: years around calendar, right, and why the children call was
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: such a better tool. Right, So he's like, you know, first,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: he's like, oh, my first real failure is like fighting
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: the shan Chan. I was gonna He's like no, and
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Lewis Tharon corrects him. He's like, no, no, no, no, no no.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Your first real failure was the first time he used
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: tried to use calendar and he tried to heal the
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: dead little girl.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, calendar is a huge presence in both these chapters.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: And so there's a there's a lot of little nuggets
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: spread out between this. There's a conversation between rand and
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Lewis Thearn going on while he's thinking about calendar, while
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: he's thinking about himself, like and it's just there's these
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: great nuggets split around. This is a really good chapter
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: to be in. Randon Lewis Thearn's head.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. For sure. We also get the very Sandersonian,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I think, very Mormon thing about like the voice in
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: his heart, like being all upset, not the voice in
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: his head, the voice in his heart. The voice and
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: his heart vanishes when he throws tam to the ground,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: like it's kind of like a Gwayn's chair, right, He's
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: like putting one of those like little backbeat things you
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: can check in on, but it feels just so painfully
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Sanderson that it's not smooth like the chair.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: No, no, well, I mean I feel like what we've
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: been seeing is the original Rand, right, it's the voice
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: of the farm boy Rand who's been subverted by this
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: king and by belty T in his head. It's the like,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: it's the part of him that's not insane. It's kind
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: of how I think of it.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, the memory of the man that was pre
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: all this stress, the boy. Really. I also wonder if
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: a million people? Is there really only a million people
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: in this world? Pretty sure there should be a couple
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of million people.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Oh where's that from?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: In the read in the intro his soul crushed by
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the needs, wants and hopes of a million people. I
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: think that might be figurative million.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Feel like this, even this world has to have more
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: than a million people in it.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: It might just be the countries that he has direct
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: control over, but still, yeah, I.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Mean, I'm sure the world doesn't have a billion people.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that's far too many.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: But I feel like just in terms of like I
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: yeel like we're over a million, you know, it's.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Probably like a forty days and forty nine. Kind it's
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: not actually meant to the number of zeros isn't important.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: It's a big number, and that's what's important. He's going
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: through all the things he thinks are bothering him, and
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: he starts out with hearing it's like, Karen is what's
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: bothering me? Here In is is the issue? Which, like
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, in many ways, here In is a precipitating
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: incident of tonight's stressful walk. It's not not part of it.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in a lot of ways, like that treatment of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the way his old friend was really this moment where
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: he's like, man, I am not the same person.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Right right. The surprise on Harin's face was more authentic
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: than anything any of his current entourage could say.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: So that does seem to be one of this, But
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: there's a whole series of events that's happening that accumulates
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: when his father comes into play, Yeah.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Because he moves from thinking about here In and the
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: you know, what was going on in his life at
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: the time to thinking about his other friends, which leads
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: to thinking about Elaine and like, so you know, he's
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: he's escalating which relationship he's thing about, you know, Hearin
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: is pretty low, and then Elaine's pretty high on the
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: emotional intensity. But he runs through that whole gamut in
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: like two paragraphs, so you know again, rumination spirals are
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: kind of his whole night at this point, and he's
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: trying to just push his emotions down. I am strong.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Longing's an emotion you cannot feel. Nostalgia gets him nowhere,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: like he is literally running from his emotions, like literally
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: running down the hallway saying I can't have these feelings,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Like you cannot more literally run away from your emotions
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: if you try. This is the most literal running away
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: from your emotions.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I was there, And do we run from the
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: past then yes, that is well, better to run and
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: face it, you know, as Loren's running away.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Be a cycle breaker, rand Lose is giving you the clue. Yeah,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: he thinks, let's see, he thinks about seeing a sham
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: on his dreams. He runs to the calendar room the
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Heart of the Stone and ruminates on that a lot,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: kind of kicking off the calendar theme for the next
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: two chapters.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Right, So, the crystal Sword is in Codswain's possession, which
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: we know she gave and trusted it to some of
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: her eyesid ee allies, we never she just pops it
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: out when Rand asked for it, So that's not really
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: relevant who has it, but somebody's holding on to.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: It at key two because she says, like a pair
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: of eyes to die who have retired from the world.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: So I'm just like, okay, so Adalius and van Den,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: but like a different pair of not biological sisters who
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: did the exact same thing. Because Katswayne's been around for
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: a long time and she knows several of these.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so he's just like, and why why is
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the Corinthian cycle keep mentioning the calendar? Why? And it
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: doesn't mention, you know, the children Hall, which is crazy
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: because I cleanse the source. You think, you know, there's
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: nothing in the Corinthian prophecy Koreathon about cleansing the Careathon.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Sorry, it's not Corinthian.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Corinthian is how I always pronounced it when I was
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: really in the books back in the day.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Sure, so sure that makes sense. I mean he probably
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: was riffing off with that word for being honest.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Sorry, how do you say it again? Properly? Again? Careathon Koreathon,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: thank you? So yeah, the creathon prophecies. Definitely, they don't
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: really mention the toting call. And it's like they don't
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: really mention the cleansing at all. Right, it's this thing
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: that had to happen.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: There is one line, but yeah, it's not a huge thing. Yeah.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: He spends a lot of time thinking about why Calendar
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: can't be a real part. Like he's like, no, it's
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: it's a lie. It's a trap, and it's it all
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: hinges on how a man has to subject himself to
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: the will of a woman. When it's like, were we
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: not told early on that the most amazing feats of
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: the age of Legends were accomplished by men and women
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: working together. There's nothing about subjugation in the concept of cooperation.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Like this is such a again, quintessential toxic masculinity that
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: he has just imbibed to the point that he has
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: crystallized pure toxic masculinity.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: But if he was naturally in a circle to women
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: and he was a man, he would have control of
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: the circle, which is natural, clearly, But Calendar reverses that.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: It's like, and that's why it's a trap.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: It's okay to not always be in charge, and it's
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: it's okay to sometimes be in charge. You just this
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: is not There is no biological necessity for you to
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: be in a particular position on the leadership scale of
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: a given situation.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, he's trying to seal the
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Dark One's prison, and Lewis Thearren. Remember the women wouldn't
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: work with him last time on his plan.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: So now Rand's reaction is to not work with women
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: at all, be a cycle breaker, Rand God, And.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I also like Lewis Theren. So we learn a little
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: bit about the Children Call. Right, So the Children Call,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I think were built to seal the Dark One's prison.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: But Lewis Barren says the plan would not work. The
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: brute force would not contain him. All my plan harsh.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: These weapons they created, they were too dangerous, too frightening,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: No man should hold such power. So Lewis Theren himself,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: in his previous life thought they were too powerful to
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: use and too dangerous. And that brute force, right, this
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: is this is the reasoning why the Children Call isn't
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: any good for sealing the Dark ones prison. Brute force
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: won't get it done.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you need finesse Yeah, and that means that
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: bigger is not always better.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: And what they need is the true power. So they
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: need the Children Call. They don't know it yet, but
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: they need the fact that it's a true power, saw
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: ungry all and that then he can pull it through Morden.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: So that's sort of the that's the key to the
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: last battle that they're trying to figure out here is
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: like why why do we keep needing the calendar as
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: opposed to the children Call? Seems like he would just
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: use calendar, right, Yeah.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: And also I feel like the Children Call is something
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that they made at the last minute, whereas Colandor was
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: a much more like artifact kind of thing even before
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the end of the War of power. Like I don't know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: they feel in different classes.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Well, the origin of Calendor is very very weird to me, Right,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: That's something that I feel like Jordan has never really
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: given us a straight answer on Children Call was built
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: like in an effort, group effort to that's a war.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: That's a war effort, right, Like we know about that
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Calendar was a mistake. Calendor was a they were making
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: as many powerful songreall as they could, and the Children
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Call was a mistake and it had a flaw in
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: it and that flaw calendar, Calendar, Calendar was a mistake.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Wait, it was a flawed prototype. I feel like I've
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: heard this.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Before, not even a prototype. Just they were making song
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: real for the war effort, and this one was just flawed.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: That's what we have from his statements.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: So Calendar and the Child on Call are both from
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: the War of Power?
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, huh.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Oh well, I know, I know why
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: because I have the world isms. I always kind of
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: assumes Calendor was like, maybe not as old as the
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Horn of Vulier, but still significantly older than the War
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: of Power. H hmm. Interesting you're saying this, and now
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like I have heard this before.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: This is not truly new information, but I completely forgot
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: so it might as well be new.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Huh. I believe Children Call was made later, Calendor was
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: made earlier.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Right, The children Call was like what completed in the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: last days of the war or something like that. It
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: was yeah, the final So yeah, again, why is Calendor
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: the one that gets to be in the prophecies? What
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: makes it special? There was apparently a lot of war
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: effort to on Grill that could have been for that.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: What about Calendor? Makes it worth.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Being this one would assume the flaws right, One would
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: assume that the problems that happened by total accident, as
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: far as we are aware in the making of Calendor,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: which are one that it lets it literally lets you
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: take control of the man using it, if you're one
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: of the two women, and two it's a true power song, real,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: not just a one power song reel. Both of those
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: seemed to be accidental as far as I can tell.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: So you're telling me that the fate of the entire
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: world and all the prophecies and all of the everything
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: rests on a manufacturing accident. Severin, we have all this
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: work that goes into these bloodlines and these family relationships,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and of this one blood raised by this other blood.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: It is so important that these five kids that save
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: the world are all related one way or another. But
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: also it was a manufacturing accident that made all these
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: prophecies possible. Like which is it?
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Ah, I mean, don't forget it was preserved, right, Like
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the women who created wud In had calendar and put
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: it in the stone of tear and put all those
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: words around it to protect it for him specifically, right,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Like so much of it was set up by that
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: group of is said, I.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but also just a completely random accident is integral
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: to the entire thing. I guess that's how the world works,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: but I don't.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Know that's how specifically, how severean works.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I could do with more random accidents in my cast.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: I wish the cast was less all from the same
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: friend group. But whatever, it's fine, that's just me.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: So he sort of tells them, don't defend guard this
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: place no more. There's nothing here of worth. I'm not
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: sure there ever was. And it's sort of this repudiation
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of everything that went on in the stone, right, his
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: whole taking it over and going there and his realization
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that he had to be the dragon reborn and taking
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the stone was proof that he was the dragon reborn,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: and like all of a sudden, calendar was this token
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that he had that was going to help him win
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the last battle. And he's like, I just I don't
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: think that's the case anymore. And it's just real depression around,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: like I don't care anymore whatever, it's all gone to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: shit anyway, you know, he doesn't believe anymore.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, well, the destination so far as shit.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: So I guess the journey is also shit, right. He's like,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: everything I've done, everything I've accomplished, everything I've learned, it
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: didn't get me to where I want to be right now.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So it's all trash.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: And he's saying the prophecies they're gonna do what I'm
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: not going to have any choice. I'm just going to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: do what prophecies say. It doesn't matter how hard I try,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what I care about. The prophecies would
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: see that he did what he was supposed to do.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: They were more manipulative, more dev than any ice, tod Eye.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think the prophecies are kind of what
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: you make of them. You know, I'm really with Tam
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: on the it doesn't matter what situation you have in
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: front of you, how you respond to it is something
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: that you can control and can make all the difference. Like,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I'm really with Tam on that. And yeah, when Randon
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: is like, well, they're more manipulative than an ice to die,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: it's like, or they're more helpful than an ice to die,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Like there's so many ways of looking at the prophecies,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: and they're manipulative. Seems like a bit of a projection.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit, but he's feeling very trapped, like
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: he feels like he doesn't have options. He feels like,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you know, he has a couple of failures under his belt.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: He had a string of successes, and then the first
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: time he meets real obstacles where he can't actually get
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: it done, he kind's kind of crashing out. He's like, no,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: it's not worth it.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: It's like, failure is a part of life, my dude.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: We all have to fail at stuff in order to
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: like have a life worth living. Like, yeah, you're, you know,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: a demi god meant to save the world, but like
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: you're still gonna make mistakes, and yeah, trying to resurrect
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: a child who's very definitely dead is a mistake. That
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: was a bad call, but like, you only hurt yourself.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: You know, you didn't hurt the little girl. She was
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: already dead, so you know it's okay to continue to
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: live after that. But also remember that it's a funny
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: callback when he's thinking back to that time, because it's
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: you know, as a meta of readers, we know that, ah, yes,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: back when Robert Jordan thought it would be a trilogy.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he was so insane back then, because yeah, Yeah,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: he thought it most he was doing three more books.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just like we are returning to that
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: level of insanity because we are finally at the last
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: three books.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: He's started thinking bad things about the Borderlanders. The last
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: battle loomed, and he spent what little time he had
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: writing to meet with people who insulted him. And he's
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: just like, it's just negative thoughts all around.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, I get the frustrat like, I get it,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: like you're trying to like psych yourself up for the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: end of the world, and there's people who want to
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: play politics. Like, I get the frustration, But I think
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I should actually firebomb their army is just not a
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: next thought.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's basically thinking, like, instead of going a
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: meeting with the Borderlanders, I'm just going to finish off
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: the shawn Chaan. I've got the children call. It's a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: better tool, right. The calendar failed me. That's how I failed.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: You know. That was back in What Path of Daggers,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: right when he lightnings the shawn chan and essentially wipes
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: out his own army, and he's like, no, screw that,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to go there by myself. So's nobody
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: on my side I can hurt, and I'm just going
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to bail fire everybody, and I'm going to use the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: children doll because I've used a tiny fraction of its
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: power to take out Natrum's barrow, so i can just
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: do that a bunch.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just delete the essentially the continent. Yeah yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: And it's like how many times has he done this? Well,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: I got a bigger, better tool, so I'm gonna go
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: blow up the army and then it never works. And yeah,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: he says he's gonna take the maidens this time. I'm
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: sure that would make such a big difference if he'd
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: actually followed through with this plan, which he doesn't because
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: of what happens with Tam. But you know, at least
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: he was gonna bring the maidens. He finally learned that lesson,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: not that it would matter now.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: So yeah, as he's gathering the maidens and ready to
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: go and just be like, Okay, I'm going to take
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: out the Sean Chan, I guess he's gonna bring the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: maidens so he might be able for them by accident,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: but okay, whatever, he's using the better tool, so he
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: thinks he's safe, and that incomes Tam, right, like that's
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the whole like surprise that God Swayne has been planning
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: for him that I neve helped with.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's more like incomes rant to
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the room that TAM's been waiting for him, and but yeah, yeah,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: he goes stomping off to prepare to go to war
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the night and there's a surprise
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Dad in the room. Surprise Dad.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: And uh, you know if you thought that herein was
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: a blast from the past, this is Tam.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Who we've seen a little bit interacting with Paren, right,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: So it's it's nice that we don't just like have
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a Tam that we haven't seen in eight books or
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: ten books or whatever. Right.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It is funny how we as the readers are like,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah, Tam, we've seen him recently, and it's like,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: oh right, Rand, you haven't seen him since like chapter five.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Of book one, right, yeah, and you haven't seen him
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: awake since you know, he got since the attack.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, right, Yeah. He gave him a little bit
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: of advice before going back to sleep that night, like
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that's it. And yeah he and just like with you
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: know what, we've seen this over and over again, Tam
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: is comfort. Tam is a rock. Tam is solid, and
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Rand cannot do solid. Rand is quandy or he can't
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: do regular earth. That's silly.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: No, And so there's this this interaction between the two
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: of them, which I really like, and it feels like
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it's helping Rand until the moment when he finds out
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: that Tam was sent by cod Swain. And then something happens,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: right like, hmmm, I don't know how to describe this
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: interaction and how it turns. I was, it's like a
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: moment when it feels like his own kin betrays him
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to him.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because Tam didn't come on his own. Yeah,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: that's what does it for him, because you know, and
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Tam describes it to Ninieven Katswain later, like I was
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: saying everything you had told me to say, and then
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I decided to go off script, and that's when things
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: changed because it didn't seem like Rand was responding the
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: way I would expect him to to the stuff that
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: you had prepared for me. So I decided to go
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: off script. And that, you know, that was what Tam
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: attributes the change to. But I think it's really obvious
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: on the page it's the fact that Tam didn't seek
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Rand out. Is where that betrayal comes from, the fact
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that Tam is there and providing the hope of comfort
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: is the machinations of ice to die. That's what feels
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: a good a shock because then if he does reach
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: for Tam and unfold him in a hug like he
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: wants to, that's what the eyes said I wanted. And
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: that's like the only constant in Rand's mind for a
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: year or more now is don't do what the eyes
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: did I want?
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so okay, let's talk about the interaction between
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Brain and Tam before we get to the breaking point,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot of force what I would call
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: foreshadowing for the next couple of books. Because Rand is
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: in the future, right, Matt and Parrin's storyline through the
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: next book happens in parallel with what's going on with
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Rand right now.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Right, or what's been happening over the course of this book.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right, So all the visions that Rand has
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: in this chapter and all the information that Tam conveys
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: actually hasn't happened to those characters yet. So it's kind
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: of foreshadowing in this book. What's going to be happening
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: with them.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So we start out with Tam being the kind
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: of person who has a better time talking when he
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: has something to use his hands on, which like Mood
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: and Rand learns that, you know, despite the fact that
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: he didn't send messages to the Two Rivers, Tam still
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: heard about all of the armies because you know, Rand
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: is still trying to protect the Two Rivers, so he
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: didn't send directly to them for soldiers. But of course
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Paren had taken all of the soldierly people and gone
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: on the road, so it wouldn't matter which.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Kind of defeats them. He's like, oh, well, now you're
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: involved in the war, which I was trying to protect
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: you from, but.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Right, right, And then we get the update about Elaine's mother,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: which it's funny because as readers, we know about the
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: fact that she's more Gaze, but we haven't seen Paren
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: and company learn about information, right, So to have Tam
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: be that casually like oh yeah, yeah, we had a
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: whole thing with the white Cloaks and with more Gaye
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: coming out as more Gaze and like there was a
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: whole thing anyway, And you're as a reader like, wait, yeah,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I miss that. Yeah, no, what, Yeah, I would remember
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: if paren suddenly was faced with bourgaze. That seems like
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: that'd be a memorable scene. And yes, yes it will
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: be in the next book.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: M that's that foreshadow Foreshadowing is not really the right word,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: but I don't know what else you use.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: It's not foreshadowing because it's not in the plot. It's
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: like meta foreshadowing. It's words like he's just telling you
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen in the next book really plainly.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: It's more like he wrote both scenes and thought he
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: would have this one and have that in this book
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: and just couldn't include it and ended up cutting it
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: in different ways.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can take that trip from Spodoinkle a
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: cross shadowing.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that Spodoinkle.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: We need a term for this because I think it's
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: a very specific to Brandon Sanderson writing these three books
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: sort of things. So there's not going to be a
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: word for it, so we have to come up with
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: our own.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Jordan had some time sink things as well, right, the
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: rooster crowing for the bubble of evil, right, the Winter's Heart,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: you know when just start like that whole Oh god? Yeah, yeah,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: So like this is not an unusual thing for him
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: to do. This is just a slightly different way of
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: doing it, but it's it's through the visions that Rand
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: is having and through the information that Tam is conveying.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: And that's like the sirly colors is definitely something that
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Jordan had put in there, and it is a good
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: way to provide a different sink across all the different timelines.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't think I realized the first few
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: times I read it just how much we had missed
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: of parents timeline and how much catching up we had
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: to do because we have we go through all the
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: parents timeline before he witnesses Rand's moment on the mountain,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: which happens at the end of this book, right.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, then Rand says, you know, we really
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: shouldn't spend our time talking about the news, even though
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, that's what family does when they get together,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: as they exchange news about their acquaintances. It's kind of
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: the point, but whatever, and they have this whole moment
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: where TAM's like, wow, you really a king, and also
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: you do know you're adopted, right, That's that's a thing
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: we should probably address, And Rand says, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: I'm a completely different person now, you know, my boyhood
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: self died. I'm gonna treat you like an honored uncle
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: or something. It's just this whole awkward king thing. It's cute.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: It's really cute to see Rand in his full emperor
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Rand mode. But just how weird that looks against his father,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: who has changed so little, and like that incongruity just
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: makes it all feel small and farm sized. It's cute.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: It's cute. And also like whenever I go home, whenever
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: I see my parents, I feel like I'm a teenager again.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how old I am. There's that moment
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: where it's like, oh my god, I'm just which is
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: not always the healthiest thing in.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: The world, but it's very real, but it's very.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Real, and for Rand it is you know, it's this
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: moment where he's like, I want you to call me son,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: you are my father, and like he's sort of retreating
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: into this formality that he doesn't really know how to
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: get out of because he's that's how he's been treating
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: everyone around him, and all he wants is the comfort
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: of his father and he can't ask for it. And
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that's and that's where you get this line the quiet
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: voice in his heart was screaming.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Which good line?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just in line even line before that.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: If it were known that the dragon report Reborn relied
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: upon the strength of a shepherd. Rand is a shepherd.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking that, Rand, you have no
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: other strength, right, you are a shepherd. That is your strength.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: I mean you have other strengths, but like that, that
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: is who you are because of Tam And you know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: in post Fans of Gold, he says, Tam is the difference.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Being raised by a shepherd really really helped.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And all of Rand was a shepherd. So his strength
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: comes from being a shepherd, right, Like that's truly his foundation.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, no, it's the irony in that
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: statement is, oh my god, what if people knew. What
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: if people knew, right, maybe they might like you more, Rand,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: they might.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Like you more, right, And it's it's also reminds me
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: of like the two want thing where she's like, well,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he could have been born, you know,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: an impoverished rural shepherd, because he carries himself like an
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: ivory tower aristocrat. Yeah exactly, exactly. So there's just all
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: these layers of like no, no, no. The shepherd thing
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: is what makes him who he is. The strength of
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: a shepherd is what has always been shining through with him.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: No, and this is just awkward, Like I wasn't sure
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: if I should have hidden the fact that you were
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: adopted and rans like you have done well, my my,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: you have protected me from death by okay, Oh I'm
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: glad I did it. Then I guess that was the
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: right thing.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: When Tam calls him my lord, I just want dagger
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: fall through the foor, like, oh my god.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the world owes you a debt. I will see
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: that you're cared for the rest of your life. I
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: appreciate that, my lord, but it isn't necessary. I have
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: what I need right, like what you do. Tam doesn't
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: need taking care of. He's solid. He's Tammed.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: He's like a lieutenant in Paren's army. He's the right
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: hand man of the mayor of the two rivers. Like
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: he's gonna be fine. But you know, I get the distance, right.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Rand is doing his king thing because that's what gets
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: positively rewarded for the last year and a half of
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: his life. Is acting like a god emperor King Despot
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: and his father is like, son, what in the good
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: goddamn are you doing?
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I do like that. They talk about blade then they
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: retreat into basically sports for dudes, right, which is sort
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: of fighting.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. And then they turned to sports because
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: of men because oh my god, I didn't even think
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: of it like that, but you're so right.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: So Rand's like, are we really a blade master? And
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: so we get a little bit of backstory there, right,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Tam says, I killed the man who was one, did
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: it in front of witnesses. I've never forgiven myself for it,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: though it needed doing.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming of Valda esque situation, a Valda and Galade
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: esque situation where a man needed to you know, do
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: a trial beneath the light, duel to the death thing,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: and it was for you know, a bad thing.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like we've had theories on who Tam fought.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: We've had theories that Tam could have like who Tam
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: could have killed during the AEO War. It's kind of
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: during the IEO War.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: He doesn't give us any more context here.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Because I'm pretty sure Jandwin killed Layman.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: We made that head canon, Yeah, it had his real dad,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: not his adoption right.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Not his adopted dad. And so for a while I
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: was thinking maybe it was was Layman, right, because Layman
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: was a sword master and had a hairnd mark sword, right,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and the whole it needed doing would kind of point
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: to like killing Layman to end the war. And it
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: would be kind of cool if Tam turned on him
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: and killed him and that's what ended the war.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel like that scandal would have probably
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: made the news rounds though.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Agreed. I agreed, And I think it makes much more
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: sense for Johndwin to be the one who did it.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, only one of his dads can kill Layman. Lama's
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: only got one life to give, and.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: That's what john Win was off doing when Rand was born, right,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: That's why he wasn't.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: There, right, right, That's why he wasn't there to protect
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: m Shay.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: And whereas all Tam was there that's how he got Rand, right,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: So he wasn't off the right Yeah, yeah, gentlemen. So
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: and he probably had the hair and marked sword for
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: a while before that moment, is what I'm thinking as well,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: because that's kind of the moment when he left service.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, he left after the because he had a baby.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: You can't be a soldier and have a newborn baby.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Right right, And it was the end of the war,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: so that would make sense that that's when he would
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: leave service, right right.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: He's got a wife and a baby, and there's the
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: war is over, so he's got his war pension and
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: whatever war wounds he's accumulated, like yah, it's time to
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: go home, raised to back.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: But so, but my assumption would be he had the
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: hair mark blade for some time before that.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: I would assume that tam got his hair and Mark
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: blade fairly early on in his sword career. I bet
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: he was a pretty quick study and a natural at it,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: and achieved the rank of blade master long before he
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: achieved his overall reputation that culminated in his presence in
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the Ieo War.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: The only other clue I have is I thought he
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: fought in the White Cloak War, right, so I was
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: thinking that maybe it was one of the White Cloaks
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that he defeated.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's very many White Cloak blade masters
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: because they're all thumb masses. I mean, Valda was what obviously,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: but like.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Walda, pedron Nile was one wasn't he before he was
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: uh old?
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Probably?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I actually don't know if he was a blade master.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: He was one of the great generals. I don't know
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: if he was a blade master.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably Gallad, well Gollad because he evolved. So again,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: the numbers are not really going up with that. But no,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: I just imagine some you know, lordly person who was
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: also really good at sword play, but you know, accosted
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: a regular peasant and tam stepped in, and one way
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: and another he ended up with a blade master's sword
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: because he's honorable and talented. And then probably after that
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: was like I guess I got to go into a
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: military service.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Well because he was a guard and tyr he's part
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: of the Companions. So one wonders like maybe he stepped
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: up he was a normal guard and he like fought
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: someone to protect the king, took down a blade master
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: when he really shouldn't it wasn't you know, thought that
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: the normal guard would be able to do that, and
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: then that got into the Companions. Right, is that moment
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: of her heroism where he took down a blade master
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: to protect the king? Right? Ok?
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: No, could I could see that where he throws himself
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: into the line of fire and ends up you know,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: heroically rewarded and honored and traumatized. I could see that
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: because he says he never forgave himself for it, so
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: you know, clearly that was traumatizing. Even if he seems
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: to have shrugged off most of the war trauma, like,
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: he's not entirely unscathed.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: And you know, probably the noble he ended up saving
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: was probably a piece of shit, right, because you know,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: want taren noble, right.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Tyron nobles. I wouldn't protect them, but you know, he
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: was getting paid, so you know, you do your job.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Maybe don't have that job, but you know, whatever.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: The prequel I want. You know, the adventures of Tam
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: and Jane Fearstrider.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Seriously, seriously they meet in a bar once in the
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: middle of the book, and the rest of the time
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: they're having completely separated shies.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, but somehow those adventures are always related across
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: time and space.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally all right. So then yeah, Tam tries
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: to be like man, life is strange, isn't it, And
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Rand's like nihilism. I can't see the beauty and the
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: strangeness absolutely unacceptable.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: You know, and Tam is kind of making the point
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: of like Rand's saying, Hey, my fate is chosen for me.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I have no choice, and TAM's like, yeah, but even
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: if you had a choice, you would still do the
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: right thing, So why does it matter? And Rand is
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: just not getting it. He's like, ah, I don't want
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: to have to do the right thing, And TAM's like,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: but you would do the right thing because I know
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: you and I know who you are, and I don't
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: know why you're hung up on this like you have
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: to do it thing when like, exactly, it doesn't matter.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: You would do the right thing anyway, and like you.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Do have a choice to not be absolutely grumpy and
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: repressed about all your emotions while you do the thing
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you know you're gonna do, right, Like it's fine to
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: be the grumpy ego going on your stupid health walk sometimes,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: but that's not supposed to be your way of life.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: And He's like, hey, I think you probably can survive this, right,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: I think the pattern owes you. And Rand's like, no,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: there's no way when we of course he's gonna survive it, right,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: He's just gonna get a different body.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Right, And it's more importantly he has to go into
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: that fight believing he can survive, Like that mindset matters
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: more than if he survives or not. And it's you know,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Tam gets it right, Like I mean he came out
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: of a war able to have a wife and child
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: and you know, be a well adjusted person, right Like
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: he knows it's possible to live through a war, both
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: literally and figuratively. So he's like, Rand, do you very
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: much have the opportunity to yes, and this to tuck
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: your knees and roll and like get through this. You
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: don't have to just like walk headfirst into a wall.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: You can be smart about this. You can be adaptable.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Rand is like, how dear, in classic teenager fashion, I
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: know what I'm doing? Oh, Like this was me being
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: taught how to drive a car, like always like I
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: know what I need to do. I'm learning how to
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: drive a car. I have no idea what I need
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to do. But it's more important to tell your parent
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: to you go away than it is to actually hear
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: what they have to say.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Parents know nothing, absolutely not when you're a teenager. I
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know why parents get so dumb
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: when you're a teenager.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: It's like they just the between the age of ten
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: and twenty parents become really stupid. Yeah yeah, and then
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: once you turn twenty one they start to make a
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: little bit of sense again. And like, I do get it,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Like being conscripted for a war sucks. I get that,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: but like, still, you can choose how to face it
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: and how to move through it. And Rand is choosing
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: the worst way anyway.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: And he's seen so much death around him. It's like, dude, like,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: ever since Ingtar sacrificed himself, I feel like you should
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: have more perspective around.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: This, right, I mean, even tam here says like the
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: soldier who does for money and the soldier who dies
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: for loyalty are both dead, but there's a difference between
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: them when death meant something the other didn't. Ing Tar
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: exhibit ing Tar right, like, yeah, you've seen this over
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: and over again, that a death can mean something yet
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: somehow not for you, which I mean, I guess very neurodiversion.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Everyone else can have trauma and I can be gentle
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: with them, but I need to be perfect and not
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: have any response to the traumas I've experienced. I guess
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: that's kind of where he's at.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: And Also, it's like, how do you want people to
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: remember you? People remember you as this angry, grumpy hard man,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: or you want them to remember you as someone who
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: cared about them and wanted the best for the people
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: in his life.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, you claim to miss a Lane, but could
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: you please be someone that Elaine would miss?
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Right? Right? That's funny how this? So every once in
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: a while, I start talking to my coworkers, and I'm
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: now of an age where some of my coworkers are
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: now much younger than I am, right, Like, they're in
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: their early twenties. I'm in my early forties. There's a
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: twenty year gap there, like, And sometimes they have questions
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and I start talking and I'm like, holy shit, I
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: do sound like that old man who's like, well, but
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: it's crazy. I was the age of Rand, and now
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: I'm much closer to the age of Tam. Because TAM's
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: not that old, right, That's the thing He's like, is
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: he even late forties early fifties, like because he was
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: young when he found Tam Rand? Right? Or was he
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: like thirty when he found Rand? That's what I think.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: He ran away from home as a young man and
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: came back many years later with a wife and baby. Okay,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and it's now been twenty years since he came back
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: with a wife and babies. So if he ran away
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: at say eighteen, and then was away for like decade years, yeah,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: ten even ten years, then that's twenty eight and then
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: another twenty years as forty eight. So yeah, I think
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: early fifties is probably a pretty realistic age for him. Minimum, Yeah,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: minimum somewhere in his fifties, I think is probably the
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: pocket for him. So yeah, not that much older than you.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: You're You're definitely closer to Tam than Rand at this point.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Right right, Let's see if we have an actual age
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: on the wiki dated birth nine forty, so he's sixty.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah, for closer to twenty years.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he ran away in nine fifty six, so he
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: was sixteen when he ran away.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, there's a tragic backstory there. I don't
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: know why a sixteen year old boy would run away
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: from an idyllic home life.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: You know, and he's got no family right left, he
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: comes back with no family, He's got a farm.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: An old family farm. Generations of work have gone into it.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: But and then we get to the real well, First
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: of all, we get this great line from Tam kings
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: don't wine, they deliberate, which I think is fantastic. I
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: don't know who he's paraphrasing, but fantastic. But then he
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: gets to the real crux of this whole everything, why
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: do you go to battle? The why is what matters.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: That's the core of Veins of Gold, That's the core
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: of the purpose of free will in the actual Last
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Battle Dark One confrontation, the why is what matters. Why
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: you go to battle or don't go to battle in
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: the case of the Tuathon, right like, why you do
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: something is all that matters really in life.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: And then you know, Tam kind of mutters under his breath, God, damn,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: you're bad. I wish Codswayin had said something earlier, and
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: that snap sets him off. Yeah, not the the word
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: right now. Is it possible that he's just losing the
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: argument and he doesn't want to do it anymore, and
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: the first thing that sets him off. I don't know.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Maybe he goes off a little hard because he doesn't
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: like what he's hearing from Tam, but I think it
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: is mostly the just cod Swain.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think maybe he goes off hard because
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: he likes what he's hearing from Tam, and now he
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: knows that Kad Swayne's poisoned that well, so now how
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: much of what he'd just liked hearing was actually Kad
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: swayin m hm. Yeah, So that that just sets randof
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: and his rumination spirals snap into a straight line.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: And I think this is the and part. His emotions
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: seeing Cam were so strong they had worn away the ice.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Too much affection was like too much hatred. Either one
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: made him feel which was something he could not risk.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: And I think that when you look at cod Swain,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: that's sort of what she's been doing. She's been sort
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: of making him hate her in order to keep his
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: emotions up right. Both of those are breaking his hardness,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: because his hardness is all about not showing any emotion.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Cod Swain her plan that it's like, why is she
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: such a bully? Right? Why is she so annoying? She's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: trying to make rand hate her like that is literally
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: what she's trying to do. She's succeeding. And then this
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: is the opposite of that, right, this is someone who's
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: making him feel overwhelming love and comfort, and that's breaking
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: him in the other way. And it's kind of like
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: flexing a rod back and forth, right, make it feel love,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: make it feel hate, make it feel love, make it
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: feel hate. You're gonna break it and it's not gonna
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: be hard anymore. And so yeah, I feel like this
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: is just this is if I've come to a conclusion
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: that if Codswayin actually had a plan, it's that distress
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: him in those two ways is to make him feel
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: annoyed and then to make him feel loved, and just
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: to make him feel it.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: To make him feel like she wanted him to be
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: anything but flat and emotionless. And yeah, she really laid
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: it on hard with the spicy on the one end.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, the snap back here is, you know, I
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: think she may have miscalculated the load bearing capacity of
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the structure.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think she should have done more of
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: the making him feel loved part of that.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, probably she would have if Min had opened
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: up sooner. Probably Min was her first choice for the
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Love Avenue. But yeah, Rand handles this very badly. He
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: is so unused to having his emotions be in control
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: that he goes from I must be iced to fuck you,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: I will burn the world down in like half a page.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Well, here's why I think is most interesting. Right as
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: he's channeling, the void shattered, but somehow sideine remained, which
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: is whenever the void has gone away, he's lost control
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: of the power as well. And so that's I think
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: really interesting that, like he's controlling the power inside his
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: emotions as opposed to being separate from them, and that's
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: never been something he's been able to do before.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I need does it all the time? Well, yes, yeah,
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: you know it is possible.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: It just shows you, I think how insane he is
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: because he's basically being nuts about the way he's channeling.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: He's channeling in an insane way because he's never been
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: able to control his whole hold on my dog is
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: definitely destroying something valuable right now. Yeah, just chewing up
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: some of Never's childhood artwork. Ah boy, Like yesterday he
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: was totally calm. Most days he's totally calm, but today
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: he's clearly been wanting attention during the recording, and the
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: second I shut him out, he got frustrated and went
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: and destroyed something. Rather than putting you, I should have
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: put him in his grate or let him in, not
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: let him want to the house freely, but not have
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: access to me. That's when he goes nuts.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Ugh, what a needy baby.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a very needy baby. He's very sweet, but
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: he definitely has some frustrations and some issues around abandonment.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, it's been like good. It was totally
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: my fault. Yeah, there's definitely a level of managing him.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: He's not being punished for chewing up the thing. It
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: just got taken away from him.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: All right, So where are we? Yeah, we're talking about
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: you dog.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Just him ranting about Codswayne for a while. She manipulates me,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: and she manipulates you. Everyone ties their strings to me.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Rah right, Like he's absolutely in crash out load.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The line he had lost control but he
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: didn't care. They wanted him to feel. He would feel
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: then is like, oh no, like I've I've tipped over
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: that edge of like I've been being so good and
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: now I have no patience left. So all of the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: things I was shoving down are now coming out. Like
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: obviously I've never had the power to destroy people with
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: my mind, but like I feel this, Oh you don't
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: want me to feel well, or you wanted me to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: feel and I wasn't okay, fine, I'm gonna do it now,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: like I empathize with this at a soul level.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: And then I think, I just want to read this
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: out for this chapter.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah did it?
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Screaming at them all, he wove threads of air and fire.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: Lewis Darren howled in his head. Sidine tried to destroy
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: both of them, and the quiet voice inside Ryan's heart vanished.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: A prick of light grew in front of Rand, sprouting
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: from the center of the access key. The weaves for
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: bail fire spun before him, and the access key grew
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: brighter as he drew in more power. By that light,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Rand saw his father's face looking up at him. Terrified,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: What am I doing? Ran began to shake the bail fire,
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: unraveling before he had time to loose it. He stumbled
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: backward in horror. What am I doing? Rand thought again,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: No more than I've done before. Lewis Theren whispered. Tam
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: continued to stare at him, face shadowed by the night
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: oh light, Ran thought, with terror, shock and rage, I
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: am doing it again. I am a monster. Still holding
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: tenuously to Sidine, Rand wove a gateway to Ebudar. Then
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: duck through fleeing from the horror in TAM's eyes. Rough yep,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: don't there's something about that voice disappearing and then like
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Rand realizing what he's doing, almost like that voice comes
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: back into Rand somehow.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like he's been pushing it outside of
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: himself and it has now finally slipped back inside and
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: is his voice again or something or something?
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or he lost it and he's just had a
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: moment of realization that when he hit rock bottom that
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: he stopped himself. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, there's
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: there's because he doesn't have the realization then, right, he
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: has a moment where he's walking around he's still planning
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: on destroying Abu Dhar.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, he has like two more crisis moments
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: before he actually comes to the conclusion.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: So he's clearly just in crisis and he's he's almost
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: started his walk about in the beginning of this chapter
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: when he's walking through the stone and like he's just
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: encountering different things on this walk. He encounters Tam, he
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: encounters the Sean Chan, he encounters and then he goes
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: and thinks on the mountain like this, I feel like
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: this that whole internal monologue is the beginning of Veins
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: of Gold. As he's thinking about the use of calendar,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: He's thinking about all those sorts of things like this
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: is the beginning of the thought process, you know, interrupted
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: by Tam and really spurred by Tam. Right, but it began,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: this introspection began at the beginning of this chapter, and
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: that's one continual thought process that leads to Veins of Gold.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, because Vans of Gold is just too big
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: to pack into one chapter. It's simply too big. You
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: need multiple chapters to really make the conclusion hit like
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: it should.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: These are the foothills of the mountain that is veins
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: of Gold, Yes, yes, and so yeah. Then we go
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: to Min and Kotswayne sort of talking Tam. Then later
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: comes in and being like, what did you do to
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: my boy? But this is a pretty short chapter.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, so I guess I'll read us in Yeah,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: go for it, all right, Chapter forty eight reading the
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: commentary and our symbol is kad Swaine's hair ornaments, the
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: moon and stars. Min sat in Kadswayne's small room, waiting
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: with the others to hear the result of Rand's meeting
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: with his father. A low fire burned in the fireplace,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: and lamps at each corner of the room lent light
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: to the women who worked at various busying activities embroidery, darning,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: and knitting to keep their minds off of the weight.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: Min was past regretting her decision to make an alliance
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: with Kadswayin. Regret had come early during the first few days,
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: when Katswain had kept men close, asking after every viewing
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: she had had about Rand. The woman was meticulous as
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: a brown, writing down each vision and answer. It was
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: like being in the White Tower again. Min wasn't certain
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: why Ni needs submission to Katswain had given the woman
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: license to interrogate men, but that was how Kadswain seemed
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: to interpret it. Mixed that with Min's discomfort around Rand
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: lately and her own desire to figure out just what
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Kadswain and the wise ones were planning, and she seemed
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: to spend practically all of her time in the woman's presence. Yes,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: regret had come and gone. Min had moved on to resignation,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: tinged with a hint of frustration. Kat Swayin knew quite
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: a bit about the material Min was studying in her books,
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: but the woman doled out her knowledge like cloudberry jam
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: a little reward for good behavior, always hinting that there
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: was more to come that kept men from fleeing. She
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: had to find the answers Rand needed them, And yeah,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: that's that's the situation as she is working on her
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: final pa HD research paper and she feels no closer
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: to the answer than when she started this dam degree.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: But I feel like it interacts a little bit with
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: the way Rand's thinking right where like he's like, ah,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: the calendar is such a box and she's like, no, no,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: but the prophecy says, you need it and we need
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: to figure out how you need it.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: And she's in there critiquing the PhDs who have come
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: before her, being like, I think they're misinterpreting this. I
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: think they're getting this wrong, and Kadsway is saying, yeah,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: I agree, these guys are wrong about shit that is
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: very wrong. Like it's on the one hand, it's like, oh,
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: men's not original. On the other hand, if she is
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: the second person to come up with this critique after
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Kadsway is good enough. It's like being the second strongest
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: channeler after Ninive. It's still pretty freaking good.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Well, and she takes it a step further, right, because
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: they later realized it's not even referring to Rand, right.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's layers to this.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: And I think the fact that the prophecy says hands
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: plural should be their first clue. Hmmm.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: I hadn't even noticed that. But you're right, you're right.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: He shall hold a laid of light in his hands plural,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: and the three shall be one. Can't be randed, Yeah,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: if he.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Has to be explicitly one handed by a different prophecy,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: it does sort of imply that the But again, translations
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: are hard, right, it could be a mistranslation of the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: plural versus the singular, and you have to include that.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: It is a clue. It is a clue, but.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's referring to it's when Morden has the blade, right,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: that's them taking control of Moridin in this situation.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they use him to use the True Power
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: to undo the bore.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: And the three shall become one. What do I think
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: the three are?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: The three powers?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, side inside aar and the True Power.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, they become one, seamless whole as they were
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: in the beginning before time. M h.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: And that's how you seal the dark One's prison, right.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: I like men's moment of thinking is all my study useless? No,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: I have to believe that it is useful. I'm just
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: that's this is what I can do. It's like a
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: GWayne with her White Tower thing. It's just this is
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: what I've chosen to do, and even if I'm not
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: seeing results in this moment, it's still what I need
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: to be doing.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that all of these women
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: who had sworn themselves to Rand end up under Codswain's
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: control simply because they're not welcome around him anymore. And like, well,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: if we're not welcome around Rand, what are we going
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: to do? And it's just like he's handing all his
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: power to Codswain simply by not being a good steward
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: of the women who have sworn themselves to him.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: And it's also interesting too, with what you were saying
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: in the last chapter about how she's in many ways
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: trying to be an antagonist to him, like very deliberately.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Like it does mean that she gathers all of the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: women who are trying to help him but who he
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: can't stand kind of like how he uses a gwayn
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: to gather all of his opposition to breaking the seals.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like KD. Swain is almost like using her
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: antagonism with Rand to make sure she also will have
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: control over all of his eyes that I would be allies.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you really want to help him, you're going
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: to help me, which means I will have control over
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: you and a short leash to keep you on which.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Ever, since the cleansing right where she was basically put
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: in charge of the field troops, it seems like, you know,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: I almost wish he'd embraced her more as a field
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: commander of his troops of the isid eye like Green
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: explicitly put her in charge of your isid I who
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: have come to your side and sworn loyalty to you,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: instead of this whole stealing. I think that would have
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: been a better way to use her in the story,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: if he'd been just like, fine, you want control, you
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: swear I'm gonna put you in control of the III
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: that are. But then I feel like she'd have to
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: kind of swear to him somehow.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Which she would never do. And then there's all the
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Isidaye Amarlin's stuff blah blah blah, meow. But yeah, she's
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: a green who's good at battlefield command. It would be
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: nice to see her used for that somehow.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: More than even a lot of the Reds right against
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Channelers and stuff like that.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if only because she's older and has
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: been doing this in the field for longer than most
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: of them have been alive.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Min wasn't certain why and I need submission to Codswayin
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: had given the woman licensed to interrogate men. But that's
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: how Codswayne Swayne seemed to interpret it. Any idea why.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: It's just like, oh, you don't have anyone to protect
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: her anymore, I think is what it is.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: I think that's what it is. Yes, And there's no
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: one of the Eyes to Die who will protect you
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: from me, and no one to give you reason to
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: think that you are right to resist me. So yeah,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Min can feel that Rand is in pain. She's not
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: quite putting together, you know why. But you know this
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: is he's talking with Tam and dealing with all of
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: that intensity. Is Ninive is pacing back and forth, and Min, then,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: you know, says I think this passage is wrong, and
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Bell Dyne is really passive aggressive about it. And it's like,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: and Kad Swayne, you know, says, hey, Bell dying, you
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: have something caught in your throat. You want to you
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: want to share with the class. Bell It's like, oh, no,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: I don't have anything to say. I just need to
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: make random snorting noises every time this child thinks that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: she's good enough to do hard academic studies. And I
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: like how Kad Swayin just walks Bell Dine through embarrassing herself. Yes,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: it's satisfying that Kad's is like, so that's your opinion, min,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: I give your opinion exactly as much, if not more
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: way as Bell Dyne, who I gave seniority because she
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: is as to die. But that's the only respect she
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: gets anyway, Continuing with the conversation I found interesting, min
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. I appreciate the put down that Bell
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Dyne gets there.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this one. That is a very unconventional interpretation.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Belle Dyne smiled thinly, you know, thinking she's one because
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: she's like, you know, that's the teacher says, Oh, that's
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: an unconventional interpretation, you know. Turning back to embroidery of course,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: god Swain says, you are quite right, and that's what.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's Kat Swayin. Katswin always appears with the
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: unconventional interpretation. That's her entire career, and all of.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: The successful I said, I are the ones who had
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: lessons outside the tower and were unconventional.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or who broke the rules and received very specific
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: rewards for doing so. Yeah, I mean, and yeah, Kat
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: Swayn says that line is why I'm here in the
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: plot at all. Like, yes, you have picked up it
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: in congruity, Good job man.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: So that's when they discussed that rand needs to use
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: it in a circle of three, which you know, yes,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: but no, like because he does use it as air
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: as part of the circle. But then like he accidentally
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: gives it to Morden, Right, that's the little deception. He's like, oh, no,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: you stole it from me.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: Well, but Mordan would never have stolen it if he
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: wasn't genuinely using it first, right, Like that's part of
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: how he induces Morden to take it.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: Then we get a couple of men prophecies, right, we
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: get Ninive kneeling over someone's corpse in a posture of grief.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's Mordan's body that she or that's Rand's
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: body with Mordon's soule in it. I think that's the
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: nineve not getting it about the body swap.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: I think it could be a gwayn Oh, I know
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: there's no body, but like.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: But this is a Rand chapter. No. I think it's
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: her being mad about how she can't heal Rand's body
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: at the end and she keeps just dumping power into
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: it and it won't.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Because there is an actual body.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's like kneeling, She's like in the tent, like
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: crying and trying to get him to heal.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: And since she's not one of the three, she doesn't
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: know he's okay, right.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: Right exactly though I think she does, you know, figure
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: it out because of the way their eyes don't twitch.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: And then you know, stalks over to Avian to demand answers,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: and that's the last wisie of her. And then the
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: black knife around bell Dine's head. No idea what that is?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: What is? Yes, she dies in the last battle at
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: the field of Marilre, killed by sharons, so one would
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: assume her we see her order die. We don't see
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: her die, but her order is stabbed to death by sharons,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: so one would assume she died by a similar.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the black knife represents the Sharran attack, whether
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: literal or figurative, that's probably what that is. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: I would have guessed a blood knife, but you know,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: the blood knives are also a very distinctive dagger, not
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: the right knife. So yeah, good knowing she dies by
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: the Sharran attack, that makes sense. And then yeah, Kat's
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: fan's being remarkably candid with men, and they're having a
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: really good little academic discussion, and then Tam barges in
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: to be like, what the actual fuck has happened to
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: my son? Which is the correct dadly response that you
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: would expect from Tam.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, especially when like, hey, your name set him
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: off in a murderous rage? What why? Like why is
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: your name specifically causing him to go off in a
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: murderous rage? You have done something to him, because that
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: is not normal.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: And kat'swan says, I encouraged him towards civility. I'm sorry, Katswain,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: but no, no, the three to Zer's should not be
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: allowing you to say that.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: And I noticed that he the room got darker when
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: he entered. I feel like that's something that like Rand
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: doesn't notice, And we didn't see that from Rand's POV.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: But here's Tam saying, you know, dude, like he has
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: this era of darkness around him. We've seen it in
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: the other chapters ever since he started channeling the true power.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Anyone with any sensitivity is seeing it.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Like Tam taught him the flame in the void,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: he doesn't have to be a channel or to be
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: able to pick up on like the vibes just like
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: an O gear, right, like gets just an energy. Like, Yeah,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: someone who meditates a lot is going to also be
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: a little more attuned. And Rand was not being subtle
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: with his vibe. This is not someone who's trying to
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: hide their darkness.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: No, No, he doesn't even know that it's there to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: hide it.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly, And then we see the flame and
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: the void from the outside. Right, Tam takes one breath
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: and then just the anger goes away. I've seen that
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: from the inside a million times, but this is one
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: of the only times we ever see it from the outside.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: And then he yeah, reports on the meeting in a
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: much calmer fashion, but also not mincing any words, and
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Kat Twins says, Okay, did you do all the things
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: I said that you should do? And Tam says, yeah,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: and it didn't work. Yeah, because you don't know how
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: to talk to my twenty year old traumatized son that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: you have been bullying for the past six months. I do.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, and I love love his response to her. I've
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: known men who, when channeled, always turn their to their
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: fists for answers. I've never liked eyes, tod Ie. I
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: was happy to be rid of them when I returned
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: uses the strength of her arm or other means.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: And the audience stood up and shear, yeah, thank god.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: It's like when we call Codswayn a bully. It's not
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: it's like, yeah in Cannon Like Tam also is calling
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: her a bully, right, like, we don't just make that
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: up out of nowhere. She's a bully canonically.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: And he says that as she has lifted him in
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: the air in an attempt to intimidate him and to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: stop telling her the truth that she needs to hear.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: I don't like hearing that. I'm going to try to
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: scare you with my big scary eyes to die powers
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: and from the air he says, a bully is a bully,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: do your worst. But yeah, I when Tam said that,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: it just felt so validating for all of the bullshit
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: that I had gone back and forth about kat'sway and like,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: is she a bully? Is she effective? Does he need
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: tough love? Does he need gentle parenting? Like? Is kat'swayn wrong?
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: Is kat swayn right? And then to have Tam, who
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: is amazing and perfect and can do no wrong come
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: in and say, now you're a bully and it's not
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: working was just like, okay, I know which side of
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: the fence. Ione finally, long last, I can stop waffling.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: She is a bully, she means well, and she is
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: using horrible tactics to achieve her ends. I am decided.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: And they're all pointing, you know, fingers. TAM's pointing fingers
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: at her, and they're pointing nine needs pointing fingers back
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: at Tam saying if you'd listen, and Min goes no,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: it's all of your fault because you're trying to make
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: him do stuff instead of supporting him.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: Right, Like again, maybe listen to the person who knows
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: him best instead of to your own internal narratives about
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: what you think you should be, which does include Tam
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: because he's a parent, right, He's like, well, my little
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: boy should be x y Z, and Min is like
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: the one who's like, well, but the man is and yeah.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: So the one two punch of yeah, of Tam and
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: Min being like, you're a bully and you all need
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: to stop making him do things is just the out,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: the released outbreath of those two comments.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: And I think that's just the read out the last
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: few sentences of the chapter is all I have left.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, we've cleared the air. Rand is insane, Katswain's
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: a bully, and Min is the only one in Rand's
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: corner truly all right? Read out? And what happened then?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: Nineve asked he seemed to be distracted by something suddenly.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: Tam said, he took that little statue and dashed through
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: the gateway. Kadswan raised an eyebrow, and did you see,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: by chance where that gateway took him west? Min thought
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: far to the west. I'm not certain. Tam admitted it
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: was dark, though I thought what Ninive prodded ebudhar Min said,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: surprising them all. He's gone to destroy the shan Chan,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: just as he told the maidens he would. I don't
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: know about that last part, Tam said, but it did
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: look like a boudhar light. Preserve us, Correll whispered.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: And yeah, we continue to walk about in the next chapter.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Rand has hit his nadar. He is running away
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: from his problems, and we will catch up with him
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: next week as he decides whether or not the last
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: hunt will happen.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: And I gotta say the next two chapters are pretty
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: short in terms of page count.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the sander Lanche is picking up speed.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: It's definitely picking up speed, like lots and lots of
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: things are happening. The density is very, very high in
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: these chapters. Both of these chapters were load page count,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: and yet we still manage to talk about them for
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: you know, nearly an hour and a half, so I
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: know it was a dense hour and a half too, So.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dense. This is emotionally heavy
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: and there's a lot of conclusions that require processing.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, basically I think we'll be and with too
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: low I think we should be able to get the
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: epilog in in the next recording, probably, yeah, because they're
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: just all very short, three short chapters, so I think
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: we should be able to squeeze in the epilog in
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: the next recording now that I look at it.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's plan on that. Okay, and Podoca will be happy,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: always egging us on to do more. I think we
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: should finish the book today.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: We haven't prepped before that, but yeah, no, we will
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: finish it next week.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is very, very exciting. Thank you for listening
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and
• 1:14:38
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• 1:14:41
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• 1:14:45
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• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: Fox and Raven Media, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia dot com.