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#562 Jason Flom with Rafael Madrigal · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I know I'm innocent.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I know I had nothing to do with this.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: How is this possible?
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: the fact that I break my way out of my
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: wife's death.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Our system.
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways,
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: but it's still broken.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction.
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me,
• 1:26
  Speaker 5: And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest,
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: a man named Rafael Madrigal.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael.
• 1:37
  Speaker 5: You know I often say it, I'm going to say
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you.
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: And as a member of as an American and as
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Are you know better than anyone and I and.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: I want to get into all those details because your
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: story has so many things that we see again and
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: that anybody in you know, any with any degree of
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: going to unravel all of that and find out how
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: you got charged with first degree murder and how you
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: got exonerated as we go along.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's go back, like at a.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: did did you grow up in California?
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life?
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: What?
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: What can you paint a picture for us to the audience?
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: What what was it like growing up?
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many,
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: I started getting a little bit worse and worse and
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: worse as time went along, you know. But as myself,
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: from high school. I got a job right after high school.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year,
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: and I think, you know what, college is going to
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what,
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: I think I read the work and being that I
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: you know, I knew my responsibility and.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: That's and both of those things you just mentioned are
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: did become a father very young, and we know what
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that.
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: But also the fact that you did start working very
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: young is an important thing as your story goes. Was
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: along because of the fact that in your alibi, what
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: a highly skilled person who was the only person that
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that,
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: you know, there's no way you could have committed this
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: there that knew how to do what you were doing,
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: the whole operation was so But let's get into that
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean,
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean,
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: this was a this was a shooting.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Can you can you explain the crime itself?
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: was a guy named Aguilera, right correct.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: up seeing him when he came as a fighting court,
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  Speaker 4: But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: was going on at the time cloth one list. You know,
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know,
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: nowhere near it, and I was still put in a
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: situation where I lost ten years of my life.
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: Well how did and and you were senced to twenty
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: of how that must have you know, just devastated you.
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: But how did your name come up in the first
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: place when you so obviously weren't there and you could
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: prove it. And who was it that first? I know
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: even come to bring your name up?
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Did you ever find out how that happened?
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: Or it all started off with the picture that this
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: me when I was I had just turned sixteen years
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: old at the time of the crime. I was twenty
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: five already, So they used that picture to show the
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter.
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait,
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael,
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: you were sixteen when your picture was taken.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Great?
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed
• 6:14
  Speaker 5: after you turn eighteen?
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works,
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: or is any law that prohibits them from using the
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: almost a ten year old picture?
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: And what was the original? Sorry?
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in
• 6:29
  Speaker 5: the first place? What we what were you picked up
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: for when? And I don't judge anything because I know
• 6:33
  Speaker 5: where you grew up, as a lot of people get
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: picked up for a lot of things, they do the
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: talk about how they were almost tricked into having their
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: ridiculous to point out that you were they were using
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: was your picture in the book in the first place?
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: A picture that I said it was taken when I
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: was sixteen, when they were in front of my house
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: was there inside my house. They pulled us home out
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: and they took pictures of us and they went on
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: their way. Never did I imagine in my life that
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later.
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around
• 7:23
  Speaker 5: in front of your own house and they took a
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: into that too. The fact is that we know that
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases,
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: they were using six pictures on that page in the
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because
• 8:04
  Speaker 5: you see all these different pictures. So by making the
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: simple change of putting one picture per page, we know
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: get made all over the country and in any case.
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing.
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: So you're now far away, have no idea what's going
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles,
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: then what happens.
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: please and from there after the incidet I believe, they
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses,
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: later after the incident, that's when I got picked up.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: I got picked up on anchel of twentieth.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: July the twenties.
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  Speaker 5: So paint this picture for us place, So you're July
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: the twenties, where were you.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: I was because she went a little bit earlier than
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: back home to get ready myself. And when I was
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: on the side of the street and they were all
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh,
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: Little did I know they were going to my house.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: And you.
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: the American dream and then I got everything pulled out
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: from under my feet.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: You had two kids at this point, your.
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: life was looking pretty pretty damn good.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: were striving for it. The fire own house and retired
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: paint where so I mean we put we put our
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: we eased to move. But little did we know that,
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: of twenty year.
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: So you had two boys six and three and a
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: little girl on the way and then you get picked
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it,
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: explain that process.
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: Well. The funny point is when I when I see
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: I came to the stop sign and they had a
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: picture of me, a blown up picture that they were
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: going to my house with. So when I got to
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture,
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: it happened to me he had the pie was looking
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: at the picture at the time when I turned around
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough,
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: they got me off the van, and they said the
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: first one who tell me all, they need to talk
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: to you down the station. So I tell them all
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: of this here because they need to talk to me,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: to the station. They put me in a vat outside
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: of the station and they left me there for it.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: not sure, but I was here that for four hours.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh,
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh.
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: to me when the detective involved in my case can't
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: to talk to me? And he says, you know what,
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: to bail out because I got to go to work.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: And his words to me where, you know what, I'm
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: gonna need it.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Who said that to you one? The need to take
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: you in my case, now you're there.
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No,
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: and talk to you and they tell you you're being
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: charged with first degree murdered.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me.
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: The following week. When I went into my arrangement that
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: seem to take they came to talk to me and
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me,
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: when was the last thing you seen him?
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: And this is an important point because the co defendant
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: ultimately testifies that you were not involved.
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: that there was a tape recording from the county jail.
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: Because me and me and my co defendant, I was
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: first enough to tell me who did this? I know
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: with you, and he just got like very upset because
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what,
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: with this. So me and him got into a real
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: big argument and we ended up video to a fight.
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him,
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: and what's going on with you? What's going on with you?
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: And said jail. So he told us, you know what,
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: asking around who was involved. And I told him to
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: stand up his business and he needs to keep this
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: asking about this clime.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: And that was that was that was said.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: recording came to life, they had told my my my
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: attorney that it was me in the in the tamp
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: travel he said, we got a tape recording was this
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: the day that I hired. I told you I had
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay,
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: you know what, We're going to ask for an extension
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: come back in a month. So a month later, we
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: come back and I asked him what happened to recordings?
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: in that can help you, and there's nothing in there
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: that can hurt you.
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: None of that makes any sense. So first of all,
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: and were you locked up this whole time?
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million.
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: series of mistakes that are literally out This is the
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: only word I can think of to explain.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: The nature the.
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: So many of them and so egregious that any law
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: student would have been able to handle this case better
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney.
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney.
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: he Do you have any theory as to what was
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: wrong with him in terms of was why why was
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: he so ill suited for this job?
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: What was there something going on in his personal life?
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: Was there some did you ever find out?
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: No? Actually, you know what when when my family first
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: hired him, I mean he talked a real good story
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: I mean he just said everything that you'll be said.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: But as time was going by and postponement of post
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know,
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: like he just literally gave it up on the kiss.
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: Because of the almost three years that I spent in
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: the county jail fighting this case. One time he came
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: within me. That was when when my family hired him.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: After that, never again did he come and see me,
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: see him and would go to court.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: He came to see you one time in three years.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know.
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Hinton called The Sun Does Shine.
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know,
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: can't process how that could even be. And then in
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording.
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant,
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that,
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable.
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: That it was impossible for you to have.
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast,
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: the whole you were the only guy there that could
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating,
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: and we know that you were You were there, you
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: by how you know how this could have transpired the
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: way it did and you lived it. So so I
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: want to get to this so it finally comes to
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: the trial. It took three years to get to trial.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, about two and a half years, which.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Is crazy in itself.
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father,
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: your wife is in the situation of trying to figure
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: out how to make ends meet, which I know that
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: ultimately she had to move out of the house that
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know,
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: and in the meantime she's left with the task of
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking,
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much.
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: So you finally come to trial, and by the time
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: be almost a basket case by this point.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: And just the worst part about it was that the
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: to trial. The first three came in. I mean the
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: and he told my attorney at the time, you know what,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: I have an offer for him. My offer for him
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: and he comes in the same way. You know what.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's up,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: see how that turns out. The following month he was
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: of Compton. He was on the case for a month.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: He let the case go. They finally brought in This
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: is Ramibors Marie Remiors, which is the one that finally
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: took me to trial, and she's the one that finally
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: convicted me, you know.
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: And my team was, yeah, Raf, where you tried, If
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: it's okay if I call you Ralf. Were you tried
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: together with all of ours or separately?
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: No? Together?
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: But he didn't take the stand, and you had the
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: tape recording. But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: about this tape recording where he was admitting that you
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: weren't there.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: Exactly. It's like the stay recording. The prosecution is the
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: one that brought them to light. But at the end,
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: nobody used them. And when we when we got our
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: appeal granted, and we came to the federal courthouse and
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: he asked mister Stein about the tape recording. All he
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: to them.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: That that is what's so nuts to me is that
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: there that there are people in this less justice system
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: I call it sometimes in justice system that are so
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: a life sentence. Let's face it. I mean there's when
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: twenty five to life sentence as a twenty five year
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest of
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: about this for a second. So when you went to trial,
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: by now, you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him,
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: hiring somebody else?
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: Well, I really did a system of what you could
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: and can do. It was my first time in being
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: my attorney.
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: Right, and you and you want to have you want
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: because you need to have faith in somebody or something,
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: and he's your advocate, he's your champion.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: But when you went to trial, did you feel like,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: how can I say this?
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated?
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: I mean, at this point the system had already you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: shown you it's its worst sides. So but but still
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: you knew you were innocent. So what was your like
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: going in to the court room finally after all these
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: years or two and a half years, three years? Did
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: you were you like, oh, you know they've got me
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: and that's going to be it.
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: No, know, I I like, honestly, I never did my
• 23:03
  Speaker 7: faith in the truth.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: I was always under the impression, you know, one sec
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: of the trial, I'm going to.
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: Be able to pull my innocent I'm going to prove it.
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: And the trial masted two days deliberations, ris and lot
• 23:14
  Speaker 7: of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days.
• 23:17
  Speaker 7: And they kept on and they kept on coming back.
• 23:19
  Speaker 7: The jury kept on coming back to pursuing my alibi.
• 23:22
  Speaker 7: So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: the doubt just to the jury.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 23:27
  Speaker 7: It was there for the beginning, even with the prosecution.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: But here's another thing.
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking,
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: the guy's name was. From the factory or was it
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: a factory, or or what was the place that you
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: were working at?
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: What was it called?
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: It was it was a manufacturing company.
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: And what was the name of the guy who never
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: was called that should have been called, that could have act. Actually,
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: as being factual.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: That was my manager of Bob Howard's.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the courtroom.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: by attorney told him that he was not going to
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: be called to testified, but he did show up.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: Did you at any point say to your attorney, where
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: calling him to the stand?
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: No, I mean I was.
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: My head was just just so lost when I kept
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: on just hearing how the prosecution kept on just making
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: me look like this animal, you know.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: And even when the victim himself got up in the standing,
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: they asked him, do you see the person who shot
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: who shot you here today in this court room. The
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: He wasn't lying, He was never lying. He was saying
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: the truth. But what would make that bad was that
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: right after he got understand, was that they put to
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: take to the move, understand, and they asked him to
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: take to the move. Why do you feel a missie
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: But it was never that the gentleman was saying the
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: truth the person that shot him was not important.
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: inside the mind of the jury, because even with such
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested,
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: even still with that alone, you would think that the
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: that moment must have been the worst moment of your life.
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: came back in, did they look at you? Was your
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot?
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: picture for us of what that was like?
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: And I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday. It
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: was almost days in for the jury, and I was
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: were gonna just bring us back on Monday. The bailiff
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: called called us in from the from the holding tank decision,
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: and when I think they came back with the verdict,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: remember my pums were sweating so bad, and I don't
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: know if it was hot and narrow it was cold.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: came back and just hearing those words, you know, when
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: we find the defending guilty, it's like if I had
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: the world on my shoulders at the time, the world
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: just came crashing down on me.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: I mean it was just then turning along fee my
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: family and just everybody breaking down trying because they knew
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: the truth. And them hearing the word's guilty as like
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: they just took the air out of their ownness.
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: And I can't help thinking that the fact that it
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: to have to come back or be I don't know
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: inside that room of them saying you know what, maybe
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: there was one or two holdouts and they finally said,
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: to work whatever.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And so for anybody who's listening.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult,
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: it's in a position on all of our life.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Show up, serve on a jury.
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance.
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: our duty to our fellow citizens, so orofellow human beings
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: that we give it, you know, all the attention that
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: as often as they do, and you're living proof of it.
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: go to prison. I guess I want to get to
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: the I want to get to the good part, right,
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: tell us during those see you had been waiting almost
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: three years for the trial, and you were in for
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: that as bad as everyone is imagining it to be?
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: Was there anything? Was there any bright spot in that
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: whole time you were there. What was the best and
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years.
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: And then again this is in adding because you were
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: in almost ten but the seven years inside prison after
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: you had been tried and convicted, you.
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Know, I could honestly say the best point of those
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: was the attorney who originally contacted the California interspodseet. Mister
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: Moltop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney,
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: Laura Seaffer. And when Laura Seaffer got my case originally
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: with me. She told me the way it was, the
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand, we're
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: state appointed appeal attorneys. They don't pay us to do
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: fore days. You know. But after going through your case,
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: you're not supposed to be here. And I told him,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: And she went as far as telling them, but you
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: know what, you're gonna have to get a private attorney
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: to be able to help you out. And she referred
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: me to the gentleman Eric moltip out of No Valley, California.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: hold of my case, he contacted me and within a
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: month a month and a half, I want to say,
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: he wrote me a letter and he explained to me,
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: know what you're doing in prison. You know, we need
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: to get you home. And from there he got the
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: I call him when he came to visit me, I
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: I asked him, please listen to the tape recording to
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: send being there. It always stood in the back of
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: my mind, there has to be since there. And he goes, okay,
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: you know where I'm gonna listen to him.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I kid you not.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: in the game and he asked me, is that you
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: and the tape recordings. I said, look, Errett, I haven't
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it,
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: and as soon as the first work came out of
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: look at them, one hundred percent sure, that's Francisco and
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: Waters on the tape recordings. And that's what just got
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: back in todment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: one that you have brought them out to light, but
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: they were never used. So it goes you know what,
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I got to get this back in there. And sure enough,
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: that was one of the key things that the magistrate
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: recorders never used in his defense?
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: It's a damn good question. And it was newly discovered
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: evidence at that point as well, which is great.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: So okay, so let's fast forward.
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: Now what must have been maybe other than the to
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: your kids or I don't know, but it must have
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: been the happiest.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Day of your life, which is the day that you were.
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: Back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated?
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Released?
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: And must have been like this million pound weight has
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: lifted off your shoulders now, So can you explain that right?
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: Well, the flip side is that we first had a
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: file of motion FORVID injury hearing and we got that
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: advent hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: down to Orange County where the evidence your hearing was
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: we were able to call my attorney who represented me,
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: we put him on a stand, and we were able
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: to bring mister Bob Howards and put him on the stand, so,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: I mean all the pieces that were missing at the trial.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: We put him in front of the fell of the
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: stand and he was able to just literally deny everything
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: that he did and also put mister how I was
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: understanding him, admit you know what he was at work.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: I'm one hundred percent positlyn to use at work. There's
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: no way he could have been gone. You know. That's
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, how did you feel. What were you freed
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: Right. Well, the next day, all that day, I just
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: slep all night. Literally I slipped not one hour of shady.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to come
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: me early in the morning. Then they're gonna walk me
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: out seven o'clock, eight o'clock. Let there, finally winning the
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: Tipitis came the to my cell and said, you know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: down to our which is receiving a release. And he
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: told me, oh, your Turney is supposed to be here
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: not here, we have to that you go those that's
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: the court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: me to the gate and mister Eric Moltop was there
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: waiting for me. You know, it was it was an
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if there was just
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: a bunch of emotions going through me.
• 34:18
  Speaker 7: You know, my dad just passed away eight months.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: things going through my mind. You know, how was I
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: going to get back into society? What was I going
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: to do? You know, it's just a minute things going
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: of camera that was waiting for me, my family. I
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: mean literally, it was the best day of my life.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: The only bad plub about it in there My dad
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: wasn't there waiting for me.
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: I want to talk about something else that's really important
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: in your case. And I know we don't have a
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: lot of timele left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction,
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: reverse charges dropped, declared.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Actually innocent. Is that right?
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: That's correct?
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: talk about it all the time, no matter where I am,
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: about your case, about all these different cases that I know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: asks me is did he get Did the person the
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: man or woman the exgonery? Did they get compensated? So
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: real wide, they say did the guy get? I hope
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: they get and I have to tell them, well, it's
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: not what you think. And you're living proof of that,
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: right because you have gone through almost like another trial.
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: It really it is another trial, just trying to get
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute,
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy.
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry,
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: me give you a little way.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: To get started here, you know, But that's not the
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: way it is.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: exoneration passive was never there. I mean, the gates open
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no,
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: you out into the world. You know, I've been out.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday,
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: October of six, it's been my nine year anniversary that
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: I've been home.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Happy University.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing,
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: and every time we go with it's like on the
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: trail because you have these people on the board who
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know,
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: was made here, we have to fix it. But up
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: has said, you know what we done, these people wrong,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one.
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: There's several individual Exanna Revees that are here in California
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: where I haven't been compensated. They're in the same situation
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: that I'm in. They've been fighting for their compensation for six, seven, eight,
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: nineteen years.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: No I know, and I've read some of those stories
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: going back to prison just because they haven't been able
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: to support themselves because they're facing the same thing that
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: you're facing, which is that coming out and having to
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: that they should have. I think as a society, we
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: have to open our hearts and minds, and we have
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: people in positions of power that run.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Big companies about this all the time.
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: I think there's a lot more openness to this now,
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: to this concept that we need to give people a
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent,
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: to get back on their feet.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And yet people like.
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: of armed robbery ninety five cents to twenty five years
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: to life and exonerated in two thousand and seven, and
• 38:43
  Speaker 5: then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: had PTSD and all these other things that ended up
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean,
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. So it's
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: amazing to staydy is willing to pay all this money
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: pay anything to help you when you get out.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: It's so strange. What do you and and Rob?
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: on that board their job should be to figure out
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: how to get you this money and how to help
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: you manage it once you do get it. That would
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: be the job of that board. If I was running it,
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: are you going to get it, but you're going to
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: know how to invest it. We're going to show you
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: how to you know, I mean because a lot of
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: people in your situation coming out and what you were
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy.
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: do you think it should be?
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing off the top, it
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: makes no sense to me for you to put a
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: a prosecutor to me, will always be a prosecutor no
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: matter how you look at it. You know, he's never
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: and they know for a fact you were innocent. There
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: is a situation that happened in my in my, in
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: my situation. You know, mister Mike Cromwolls, who was no
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: once did he even take the time to say, you
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: know what, I have an innocent individual here and suddenly,
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead,
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: questioned me so much in regards to what took place
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know, we
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: have an individual years That was the case with him.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: even then in some of those states it's only you
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: have to have a DNA proof or you have to
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: have this or that. It's not a streamline system like
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: it should be. I think to me, once you're proven
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas,
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: You get eighty thousand per year.
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: For every year you in you get an annuity, and
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: would have one of the worst systems, actually has one
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: of the best.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I know why that is.
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: upside down. And we need to do the same thing
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: in California. And there are a lot of you should know,
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: there are a lot of good people working on it,
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: to fix it for you and for everyone else like you,
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: because it's absolutely it's disgusting in my opinion that you
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: are now having to fight. And by the way, not
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: only is it as you said, it's the opposite of
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: what it should be because on top of everything else,
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: you have to make time in your life, which you
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else,
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: to go and appear in all these different hearings and
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: in the mailbox for you with your name on it
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: that says, hey, good luck, sorry this happened to you,
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward.
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: Hope this helps something like that, You know what I mean.
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: But man, it's really I think it's so important that
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: you're here and talking about this because that problem has
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you,
• 42:55
  Speaker 5: if it's all right, because I'm going to call on
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: you maybe to have some meetings with some you know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: people in positions of power who can who can make
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: these changes, because I believe if if the people that
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: so important that you're here, they're going to want to
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: on it. So the more attention we can bring, the
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: So before before.
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: We have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: one more question. There was actually two more questions. One question,
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: how how is your How are your kids doing?
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year,
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: about a year and a half left a Long Beach
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: State to complete the major. My second oldest, he just
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: one to Keelsetate Folish and also so I mean, family wise,
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: I cannot complete one bit. You know. I thank god
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: that I came out, that my wife done such a
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: great job with them in those ten years. She you know,
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: guided them in the right direction. And now these kids
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: are open and they're they're leading a good life.
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: It's amazing. That's really an amazing testament to them. And
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: like you said to your wife, because to grow up
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: in that situation without their dad and and to be
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: into they can call it triumph because it sounds like
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean,
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's also it's
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: had a tremendously positive influence on them. So you know
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: I wish, I wish you and them all the best
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: and everything that you deserve before we go, and I
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: know you have to run, but I always like to
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: end the show the same way, which is that I
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: like to This is I think everyone's favorite part of
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: of all want to thank you again for being here
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: taking time. I'm out of your schedule to share your
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: story with the audience here on Wronfel Conviction. And now
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: I'm going to turn it over to you just for
• 45:06
  Speaker 5: any last thoughts that you want to share about anything.
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: being here.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: Thank you well. I just want to take the time
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: more than anything to thank my family and my wife,
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: him because he was one of the ones always in
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: the front right with me fighting for this. I also
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: want to think Justin and all of the California Indusry Project,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: Eric Moltop.
• 45:38
  Speaker 7: Eric Moltop was the.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: Key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know,
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: and to take us out there. You know, if you're
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: people in prison as in that command. You're not only
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: their kids, their families, I mean, their parents. It just
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: one of the lucky ones who it only took ten
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: years to his alrea. But there are gentlemen out there
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later,
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: there's not a life out of here for you. You know,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: everything has changed.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: I think that's that's a great way to wrap up.
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think,
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: and he is a huge source of inspiration for me
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: just a great, great man, And I want to encourage
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser,
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: many people in the same situation that Raphael was in
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: and we need to go get them out. And uh
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: good people who care about you and everyone else like
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: you out there, so I know you got to get
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore.
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: California the next time. And uh and and all my
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: It really helps.
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis the music in the show is
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Composer Jay Ralph.
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: and association with Signal Company Number one