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Convicted Killer Susan Smith's Dancing With The Stars Dreams Dashed? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You are never going to
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Speaker 1: believe this.
0:11
Speaker 2: Remember it's to been just a few months ago that
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Speaker 2: Susan Smith, yes, the mom from hell that murdered her
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Speaker 2: two little boys by buckling them into a car and
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Speaker 2: pushing them into a lake and watching them drown. We
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Speaker 2: just got through her parole board hearing, didn't we Or
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Speaker 2: is that all just a bad dream?
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Speaker 1: Well guess what, it ain't over yet. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:35
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: We heard reports that after killer Mom Susan Smith was
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Speaker 2: denied parole, she went back and threw a hissy fit
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Speaker 2: in her jail cell.
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Speaker 1: And now we know why.
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Speaker 2: Killer Mom Susan Smith wanted to go on Dancing with
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Speaker 2: the Stars when she got parole, and she is quote
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Speaker 2: devastated it didn't work out. I can't believe this, forget
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Speaker 2: about her two dead children that she murdered. Susan Smith,
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Speaker 2: who's serving a life sentence into South Carolina jail for
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Speaker 2: the murder of her two little boys, is angry she
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Speaker 2: couldn't be on Dancing with the Stars. Okay, Can we
1:21
Speaker 2: just have a quick review of the evidence that proved
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Speaker 2: beyond a doubt. Susan Smith murdered her young boys and
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Speaker 2: in a horrible fashion.
1:32
Speaker 1: Yes, layo love and he's a lady.
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Speaker 3: You come on at door and some guy that jumping
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Speaker 3: into a red light with her car with her two
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Speaker 3: kids in it, and he took off and.
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Speaker 4: She got out of call here at Ohio.
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Speaker 1: Yes, lay let her call it.
1:45
Speaker 3: I don't see your I need to go along.
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Speaker 5: Get down here and a car, but we need.
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Speaker 6: A body day what color was it?
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Speaker 1: A burgand protege? We don't get him going?
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Speaker 3: Pay him?
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Speaker 7: I got two key.
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Speaker 1: I love that degree of detail.
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Speaker 2: You know, I don't even know where to go first
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Speaker 2: because I've got such awesome experts, But I'm going to
2:12
Speaker 2: go first with Chris mcdonna. He is the director of
2:14
Speaker 2: Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care. Former homicide detective starting
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Speaker 2: to care, getting warm, getting warm, getting hotter. He has
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Speaker 2: his own YouTube channel, the Interview Room where I found him.
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Speaker 2: You can find him at Colcase Foundation dot org or
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Speaker 2: on the Interview Room.
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Speaker 1: Former homicide detective.
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Speaker 2: Three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt. Chris mcdonna,
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Speaker 2: don't you love the degree of detail?
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Speaker 1: Hey? You know what?
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Speaker 2: Send me? Sometimes you got to hear the best stuff.
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Speaker 2: Can you play that one more time?
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Speaker 1: Listen?
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Speaker 3: Love that is a lady.
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Speaker 5: And some guy get him into a red light with
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Speaker 5: her car with her two kids in it, golf. If
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Speaker 5: you got out of call here at Ohio and I
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Speaker 5: let her call it, I don't will see you.
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Speaker 3: I need to go along, get.
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Speaker 5: Down here an carry. But we need to add we
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Speaker 5: kind of up.
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Speaker 3: A maga protegee.
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Speaker 2: What color was it?
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Speaker 6: A burgundy maga protege.
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Speaker 5: We don't get him going pay him?
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Speaker 2: I got I'll call all the detail Chris McDonough. She's
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Speaker 2: quote real hysterical and you need to call along and
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Speaker 2: get him down here right now. And you hear her
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Speaker 2: feeding details in the background, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: Wasn't that the narrative that captivated America?
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Speaker 1: How can you be so calm?
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Speaker 6: You know, we just get used to it. Unfortunately, right it's.
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Speaker 2: Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know
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Speaker 2: the end of this story. But the detail have you
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Speaker 2: ever seen purpose? And they will spin you yarn with
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Speaker 2: such incredibly rich detail.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minute show
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Speaker 6: and that amount is typically a sign of deception. And
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Speaker 6: she kicked it off right from.
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Speaker 8: That nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,
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Speaker 8: running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps
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Speaker 8: out and you know, this occurs in rural Union County,
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Speaker 8: South Carolina, near the John D.
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Speaker 1: Long Lake.
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Speaker 2: And you know, hold on, Chris McDonald, where do you live, Chris?
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Speaker 6: Well, right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in
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Speaker 6: South Carolina right there in Mount Pleasure.
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Speaker 1: You're very familiar with this area.
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Speaker 2: Let me go to another country boy like this country
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Speaker 2: girl right here. Just got Morgan joining me, although he's
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Speaker 2: gotten pretty high falutin. Professor Forswicks, Jacksonville State University, author
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Speaker 2: of Blood Beneath My Fate, still waiting on another book
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Speaker 2: to come out. A host of Bodybag's hit podcast, this area,
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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough has lived in South Carolina.
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Speaker 1: I've gone to this scene before.
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Speaker 2: It's extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe a guy
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Speaker 2: jumps out of what from behind a stop sign and
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Speaker 2: hijacks her car and takes off with the children clearly
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Speaker 2: in the back seat, two little boys.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
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Speaker 7: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm? Whether
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Speaker 7: or not they had an awareness that these poor little
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Speaker 7: angels were buckled down in those back seats. The fact
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Speaker 7: that you would have this kind of aggressive behavior in
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Speaker 7: that location where she was specifically targeted as an investigator,
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Speaker 7: I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and I'm going
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Speaker 7: to take a long look at what she has to say, because,
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Speaker 7: as you and I both know, Nancy, the line share,
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Speaker 7: the line share of home sides we talked about, have
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Speaker 7: some kind of familial connect that means said, you're around
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Speaker 7: intimates those individuals that are most important. So you're going
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Speaker 7: to tell me that random stranger just came up and
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Speaker 7: kidnapped these babies and run off with them and left
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Speaker 7: her standing on the side of the road weeping.
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Speaker 1: Now, did you hear what he just did?
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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonah, I am going along with everything he says,
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Speaker 2: but he's a wily one.
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Speaker 1: You got to really watching watch what Joe Scott says.
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Speaker 2: I agree with the whole rural aspect, but did you
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Speaker 2: hear him say if the unknown male assailant noticed the
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Speaker 2: children in the back seat. I'm looking right now at
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Speaker 2: a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can see straight into
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Speaker 2: the back seat from every angle of the car. It's
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Speaker 2: not like you know, you see those black SUVs with
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Speaker 2: tinted windows, you can't see what's going on in there. No,
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Speaker 2: you can see exactly what's going on in the back seat.
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Speaker 2: And I'm looking at a shot from the distance, I
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Speaker 2: can see through the back window, through the back dash,
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Speaker 2: and through the other.
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Speaker 1: Side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
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Speaker 1: see that children were strupped.
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Speaker 2: Into car seats in the back seat. I mean, okay,
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Speaker 2: you know what, Let's take a listen to the nine
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Speaker 2: one one call.
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Speaker 5: Listen union one of us one of five Gohad said
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Speaker 5: it was a black matl driving agh Borg and rode
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Speaker 5: a head affirmit that one of fine.
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Speaker 9: They had two jeweled with it was one I.
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Speaker 5: Find for one understood these were small children. These are
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Speaker 5: her children. And she jumped out of the car and
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Speaker 5: he took the car with the children and he haded
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Speaker 5: toy chestra one hundred heed thector both us call one
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Speaker 5: from when I gathered by the call, they are not
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Speaker 5: this is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's
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Speaker 5: car at a red light and she jumped out.
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Speaker 2: I mean, real, Tara, and I'm leading up to what
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Speaker 2: Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me tell
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Speaker 2: you that involves six different men. That said Tara Malick
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Speaker 2: joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik,
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Speaker 2: former state and federal prosecutor.
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Speaker 1: Tara once again blame the black man. I remember when
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Speaker 1: this happened.
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Speaker 2: I was trying a case and I looked over at
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Speaker 2: my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a judge,
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Speaker 2: I might add, and I went, Herman, have you seen
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Speaker 2: the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And yeah,
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Speaker 2: I know what you're gonna say, Yeah, it looks just
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Speaker 2: like you. It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial
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Speaker 2: partner who had come into court to.
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Speaker 1: Bail me out of some sling.
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Speaker 2: I got in with the judge with some appellate law,
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Speaker 2: trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did,
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Speaker 2: but he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like
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Speaker 2: this Susan Smith burk and he did. I mean, think
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Speaker 2: about it, Tara, an innocent person could have been arrested
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Speaker 2: and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite.
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Speaker 1: And all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of
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Speaker 1: my best friends in the DA's office.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and
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Speaker 4: horrific and terrible. And then and then, you know, to
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Speaker 4: give this false profile of someone else who may have
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Speaker 4: done it, wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time,
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Speaker 4: but also, like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy.
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Speaker 1: Of being picked up for it.
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Speaker 4: And it's just mind boggling that she would go down
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Speaker 4: this road.
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Speaker 2: You know, I've dealt with a sod defense many times.
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Speaker 2: I named Doe that some other day did it.
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Speaker 1: D And here she goes some other dude did it
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Speaker 1: and listen to her. Listen.
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Speaker 10: I would like to stay to whoever has my children,
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Speaker 10: that they please they please bring them home to us
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Speaker 10: where they belong.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That's right, you heard it here.
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Speaker 1: Killer Mom.
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Speaker 2: Susan Smith angry because she can't be on Dancing with
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Speaker 2: the Stars.
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Speaker 1: I can't even make this up. Susan Smith murdered her boys.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining him, says she's a renownce psycho
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Speaker 2: analyst at Doctorbethany Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact,
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Speaker 2: she now has a record role in Paris and Love
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Speaker 2: season two. That said, doctor Bethany I don't get it.
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Speaker 2: We've got men sexting and texting and writing and sending
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Speaker 2: money and love letters to Susan Smith when she is
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Speaker 2: a bald faced liar that kill your children in the
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Speaker 2: worst way, letting her car, her Burgundy protege go.
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Speaker 1: Down a ramp with the two little.
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Speaker 2: Boys alive, strapped in the back seat.
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Speaker 1: Why I don't get it.
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Speaker 2: Why would men want to be with this woman, send
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Speaker 2: her money and sex text with her?
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Speaker 1: But did you hear her? Lie?
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Speaker 2: Do you remember when that happened? Crying in the snotting
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Speaker 2: and the.
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Speaker 1: All that happening. And I want to.
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Speaker 2: Say you ever has my children, they please play bring
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Speaker 2: them home to us where they belong, knowing full well
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Speaker 2: they drowned strapped in their car seats.
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Speaker 9: We'll show how immature she is at the most.
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Speaker 1: Basic level that.
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Speaker 2: The most you could say she's immature. She murdered two
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Speaker 2: little boys.
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Speaker 9: We know she's a sociopath. But what beyond the fact
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Speaker 9: that she's a sociopath, what additional factors are there that
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Speaker 9: would lead to this? And one is an over attachment
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Speaker 9: to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,
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Speaker 9: the feeling you have.
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Speaker 2: The first section How are you linking this to double murder?
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Speaker 2: Why this woman did not get the death penalty?
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Speaker 1: I do not know. And now there's six guys trying
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Speaker 1: to have sex with her. Really ill.
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Speaker 9: Basically, it's really a pathological attachment to men, like being in.
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Speaker 1: A barrel with with a rattlesnake. Who was that? I?
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Speaker 9: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't
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Speaker 9: have fantasie who killed their children often have some really
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Speaker 9: First of all, they're usually what we call cluster.
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Speaker 2: Be that or not, So I really have some sexy
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Speaker 2: measure going on because I'm totally cutting your mind.
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Speaker 9: Okay, So their cluster bee, which means they have three
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Speaker 9: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
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Speaker 9: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
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Speaker 9: to get back at the love object, like I'm going
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Speaker 9: to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's
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Speaker 9: hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,
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Speaker 9: but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
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Speaker 9: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
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Speaker 9: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the children.
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Speaker 9: If I found a new guy and I don't want
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Speaker 9: the children to be in the way.
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Speaker 1: Interesting that you said that.
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Speaker 2: Interesting, But I also want you to hear the level
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Speaker 2: of detail that she waves into her big fat lie
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Speaker 2: about her two murdered little boys.
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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine.
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Speaker 2: I'm more excruciating death than being strapped in a car
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Speaker 2: can't get out.
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Speaker 1: The car goes underwater.
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Speaker 2: A muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for
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Speaker 2: mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown.
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Speaker 1: Listen to our cut four crime online.
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Speaker 3: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
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Speaker 3: on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake.
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Speaker 3: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
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Speaker 3: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
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Speaker 3: her at a red light. He had a gun and
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Speaker 3: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
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Speaker 3: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
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Speaker 3: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
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Speaker 3: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
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Speaker 3: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
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Speaker 3: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
14:59
Speaker 3: Findley has reached out to see her friends. Wonder why
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Speaker 3: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
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Speaker 3: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
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Speaker 3: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
15:12
Speaker 3: the press.
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Speaker 1: Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
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Speaker 1: There's more. Listen.
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Speaker 3: Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.
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Speaker 3: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
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Speaker 3: a black man with a gun that stole her car
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Speaker 3: with her kids in the back. She now says she
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Speaker 3: went out for a drive with her sons buckled into
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Speaker 3: their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
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Speaker 3: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
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Speaker 3: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
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Speaker 3: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
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Speaker 3: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
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Speaker 3: out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
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Speaker 3: for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
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Speaker 3: vehicle with the boys in the back, still buckled into
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Speaker 3: their seats.
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Speaker 2: Just let that so Kim for just one moment, claiming
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Speaker 2: you know why is it Chrismindonna, that all these people
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Speaker 2: that want to commit suicide end up killing their children
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Speaker 2: or their family or somebody else they miraculously live.
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Speaker 6: I mean, just a horrific thought in of itself, right, Nancy,
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Speaker 6: and they night. I actually drove the entire route that
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Speaker 6: Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for
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Speaker 6: her to change her mind and turn around. I mean
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Speaker 6: there were stop signs, They were, you know, through residential neighborhoods.
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Speaker 6: And to think that she was saying to the public,
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Speaker 6: you know, or to the police when she initially confessed, well,
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Speaker 6: you know, I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't
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Speaker 6: do it, et cetera, So I jumped out. You know,
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Speaker 6: when you go to that boat ramp where these poor
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Speaker 6: little babies are strapped in those backseats, and that car
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Speaker 6: is going down that ramp, I would submit to you
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Speaker 6: she had gotten out of that car almost immediately and
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Speaker 6: let that car go to your point a couple of
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Speaker 6: minutes ago. And as that water started to fill that vehicle,
17:05
Speaker 6: can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing
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Speaker 6: and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.
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Speaker 6: It took about six I think between six to fifteen
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Speaker 6: seconds for that vehicle to hit the water, and within
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Speaker 6: a minute it was submerged.
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Speaker 9: Nathya. It just shows how cold blooded she is. She
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Speaker 9: could stand on the shore look at the car submerged
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Speaker 9: and knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives
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Speaker 9: you insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, who is this woman?
17:43
Speaker 2: Take a listen hour cut three from crime online dot Com.
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Speaker 3: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
17:50
Speaker 3: a baby on the way and the pair decided to
17:52
Speaker 3: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
17:55
Speaker 3: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
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Speaker 3: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
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Speaker 3: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of
18:05
Speaker 3: a wealthy mill owner.
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Speaker 2: Ah, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,
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Speaker 2: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from
18:17
Speaker 2: Smith and Mallet.
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Speaker 1: Would that be motive she wants to be with this
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Speaker 1: rich guy? Yeah? I think you know. She's painted in
18:25
Speaker 1: different ways.
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Speaker 4: During the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony.
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Speaker 4: One of the theories of the case that was put
18:33
Speaker 4: on and suspected was that she wanted to be with
18:38
Speaker 4: Thomas Finley, Finley didn't like the fact that, you know,
18:42
Speaker 4: she had two kids in a way or in an
18:44
Speaker 4: attempt to get back together with Finley, who she was
18:48
Speaker 4: having an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
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Speaker 4: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
18:56
Speaker 4: you know, she was someone who was an abuse child,
19:00
Speaker 4: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
19:04
Speaker 4: was frightened of her.
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Speaker 6: Husband, you know.
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Speaker 9: And so I think.
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Speaker 4: Those details this jury ended up grappling with. And it's
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Speaker 4: a case that should have been a death penalty case
19:15
Speaker 4: that it's unfortunately not here.
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Speaker 1: Quote.
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Speaker 2: She always thought it would be fun to be on
19:21
Speaker 2: that show, and that when they put Anna Delvey on
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Speaker 2: the show, Susan felt like maybe it was the possibility.
19:31
Speaker 2: Oh kay, I had enough of a problem with Anna Delviy,
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Speaker 2: the fake eirass who conned people out of hundreds of
19:40
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars. She showed up on Dancing with the Stars,
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Speaker 2: and then she blamed Dancing with the.
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Speaker 1: Stars for exploiting her. Okay, I just these people.
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Speaker 2: I can't make this up and now Susan Smith is
19:55
Speaker 2: on the Dancing with the Stars train, oh or wants
19:59
Speaker 2: to be okay before she's cast for Dancing with the Stars.
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Speaker 2: Can we just take a review of the evidence.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it true?
20:08
Speaker 2: Dave mack joining us from crime online dot Com that
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Speaker 2: Finley broke it off with her claiming he did not
20:16
Speaker 2: want an instant family. He did, and.
20:18
Speaker 3: Nancy, more to the point, are more than just saying
20:21
Speaker 3: I don't want kids.
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Speaker 6: There were other things he stated.
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Speaker 3: In there about her and their relationship. He also cited
20:28
Speaker 3: their different upbringing and that that was a big stumbling block.
20:32
Speaker 1: Another one the.
20:33
Speaker 3: Way Susan Smith acted and flirted with other men. He
20:38
Speaker 3: didn't like that, so he mentioned three basic things that
20:42
Speaker 3: he really didn't want an instant family. But these other
20:44
Speaker 3: two things were mentioned as well, and one was her
20:47
Speaker 3: own behavior of hitting on other men.
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Speaker 6: But she dismisses that.
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Speaker 3: In her thought process, blames it all on the kids
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Speaker 3: and thinks she's seen getting back if she just gets
20:55
Speaker 3: rid of that. She doesn't address the fact that she
20:58
Speaker 3: hits on men all the time.
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Speaker 1: Let me understand something, Dave Matt.
21:02
Speaker 2: She met Finley the son of the rich guy, when
21:08
Speaker 2: she and her husband were what divorce separated?
21:11
Speaker 1: What separated?
21:12
Speaker 3: They actually when they were married, they had several full
21:16
Speaker 3: on separations where they were not living together, we're dating
21:20
Speaker 3: other people. And yet they would then get back together,
21:24
Speaker 3: and it was on and off for I think, I
21:27
Speaker 3: mean after they had the last time, he was fourteen
21:29
Speaker 3: months old. Well, this happened, so it was an ongoing
21:32
Speaker 3: process in their relationship, that breaking up, getting back together.
21:35
Speaker 2: Let me go back to doctor Bethany Marshall, what do
21:38
Speaker 2: you make of this? It was always presented that Finley
21:44
Speaker 2: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
21:47
Speaker 2: But according to the letter he sent her before she
21:50
Speaker 2: murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more
21:53
Speaker 2: than that.
21:55
Speaker 9: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
21:58
Speaker 9: of the country and the core and saying, well, I
22:00
Speaker 9: didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
22:03
Speaker 9: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
22:06
Speaker 9: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
22:09
Speaker 9: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
22:12
Speaker 9: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
22:15
Speaker 9: be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll
22:16
Speaker 9: buy any dress. Oh I'll go shopping. Oh I'll buy
22:19
Speaker 9: some listics. I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll
22:22
Speaker 9: just kill my children. I mean she would just throw
22:24
Speaker 9: everything at it to get him back. So I think
22:28
Speaker 9: if he was ambivalent about her, that may have even
22:31
Speaker 9: incentivized her to kill her children.
22:33
Speaker 2: Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were
22:38
Speaker 2: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision
22:43
Speaker 2: to break it off with her. Not only that he
22:46
Speaker 2: did not want an instant family, but he did not
22:50
Speaker 2: like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He
22:54
Speaker 2: didn't want that.
22:55
Speaker 9: I think some women relate primarily to men because they
22:59
Speaker 9: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
23:02
Speaker 9: probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
23:05
Speaker 9: she would be flicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
23:09
Speaker 9: would try to attract them. She probably did that all
23:12
Speaker 9: the time because this is a way of feeling important,
23:16
Speaker 9: like she's a real person in the real world, and
23:19
Speaker 9: she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If
23:21
Speaker 9: it's sexual in an instant then they never become real
23:26
Speaker 9: people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who
23:29
Speaker 9: flatter her.
23:30
Speaker 3: Listen, now, our cut for Susan Smith is planning a
23:32
Speaker 3: future with the best catch in the county when she
23:35
Speaker 3: gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains
23:38
Speaker 3: he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the
23:41
Speaker 3: difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,
23:44
Speaker 3: and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want
23:47
Speaker 3: children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior
23:51
Speaker 3: towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship,
23:54
Speaker 3: and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't
23:57
Speaker 3: want children.
23:58
Speaker 2: Says she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
24:04
Speaker 2: and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
24:07
Speaker 2: Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
24:14
Speaker 2: relationship with at least six men behind bars.
24:19
Speaker 1: Okay, what does that mean? Well, there are precursors to
24:24
Speaker 1: today's report of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors?
24:31
Speaker 1: Will listen to our cut ten.
24:33
Speaker 3: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
24:36
Speaker 3: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
24:39
Speaker 3: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
24:41
Speaker 3: proof she had been beaten. Smith told prison investigators that
24:45
Speaker 3: she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor
24:49
Speaker 3: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
24:54
Speaker 3: Cayle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
24:57
Speaker 3: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
25:00
Speaker 3: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
25:02
Speaker 3: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
25:05
Speaker 3: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
25:08
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
25:11
Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
25:14
Speaker 3: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
25:18
Speaker 3: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
25:21
Speaker 3: positive for an STD.
25:23
Speaker 2: Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns
25:28
Speaker 2: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
25:32
Speaker 2: was sleeping with various prison guards. Scott Morgan remind.
25:36
Speaker 1: Me, what is it like to drown. You're the death
25:38
Speaker 1: investigator one of the.
25:40
Speaker 7: Most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about.
25:46
Speaker 7: And the fact is the thing that's always bothered me
25:49
Speaker 7: about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and mikeel On,
25:53
Speaker 7: I think it's really important that I say their names
25:55
Speaker 7: at this moment in time, because they are the victims.
25:58
Speaker 7: When they were strapped in those little seats in the
26:01
Speaker 7: back of that Mazda, in that tight, little confined place
26:05
Speaker 7: where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,
26:07
Speaker 7: had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at
26:10
Speaker 7: the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,
26:13
Speaker 7: what's mama doing now? You know, she gets out of
26:16
Speaker 7: the car, and as that car is left and neutral
26:19
Speaker 7: and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly
26:22
Speaker 7: sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they
26:25
Speaker 7: found that car about one hundred and twenty feet off
26:28
Speaker 7: of the shore. The dive team had looked for it
26:32
Speaker 7: for some period of time. Car was filled with water.
26:36
Speaker 7: Those kids were still strapped in that back seat, and
26:38
Speaker 7: our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,
26:42
Speaker 7: is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped.
26:46
Speaker 7: We've all got babies in our families that we've taken
26:48
Speaker 7: care of. We strapped them in car seats, And have
26:52
Speaker 7: you ever seen a child struggle to get out of
26:54
Speaker 7: the car seat, they're tired of being in it. Well,
26:56
Speaker 7: imagine that only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting
27:00
Speaker 7: into your nose, your little mouth, your eyes, You're running
27:04
Speaker 7: out of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire
27:08
Speaker 7: because there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath, and
27:13
Speaker 7: you have no idea. It's panic that's setting in. And
27:16
Speaker 7: it would not have been. I just wanted to spell
27:19
Speaker 7: any kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now
27:23
Speaker 7: that this was a sudden and a quick death. It wasn't.
27:26
Speaker 7: It was torturous. It was absolutely horrific what these babies
27:31
Speaker 7: went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, And I'm with you.
27:35
Speaker 7: I'm still to this day just befuddled. Why she's not
27:40
Speaker 7: sitting on death row and you know, forever and ever
27:44
Speaker 7: she's getting going with her life. No, she and those
27:47
Speaker 7: babies died, died at this monster's hands out there out
27:51
Speaker 7: there in that.
27:51
Speaker 2: Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to
27:55
Speaker 2: a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had.
28:00
Speaker 1: Jumped into her car.
28:01
Speaker 2: And I guess the only red light in the county,
28:04
Speaker 2: And I feel okay, saying that because where I grew
28:06
Speaker 2: up that we didn't even have a red light, So
28:10
Speaker 2: out of the entire county, an unknown assailant jumps into
28:14
Speaker 2: her car at the one red light, takes.
28:16
Speaker 1: Her car and murders her children.
28:19
Speaker 2: Okay, this is the woman these guys want to be with.
28:24
Speaker 2: Speaking of them, there's a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe.
28:29
Speaker 2: Now we heard about Cagel Kagile, a supervisor at South
28:34
Speaker 2: Carolina Women's c I Correctional Institute.
28:38
Speaker 1: And what happened with him.
28:41
Speaker 2: We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith
28:47
Speaker 2: turned up with an std behind bars.
28:49
Speaker 1: But there's more. Take a listen to our cut eleven.
28:52
Speaker 2: Does she not realize there are consequences to actions.
28:56
Speaker 3: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
28:59
Speaker 3: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
29:02
Speaker 3: Roe says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
29:06
Speaker 3: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
29:08
Speaker 3: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
29:10
Speaker 3: prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
29:13
Speaker 3: things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had
29:17
Speaker 3: sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything.
29:20
Speaker 3: He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and
29:23
Speaker 3: after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was
29:25
Speaker 3: sentenced to five years probation.
29:27
Speaker 1: Take a listnour Cut twelve.
29:28
Speaker 3: Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith had faced in prison.
29:32
Speaker 3: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
29:34
Speaker 3: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
29:38
Speaker 3: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she
29:41
Speaker 3: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South
29:44
Speaker 3: Carolina to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former
29:48
Speaker 3: prison guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex
29:51
Speaker 3: with Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate
29:54
Speaker 3: Secrets when Smith was moved from one prison to another
29:57
Speaker 3: that it was at that point where quote she could
29:59
Speaker 3: know no longer get the mail attention that she used
30:02
Speaker 3: as a drug unquote, and instead turned to pilt, which.
30:05
Speaker 2: Led to a series of drug infractions.
30:14
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
30:20
Speaker 2: According to one of Susan Smith's suitors, yes she's.
30:24
Speaker 1: Got boyfriends behind bars. Quote.
30:27
Speaker 2: We would talk about opportunities once she gets out of jail. Okay,
30:32
Speaker 2: now this suitor had made concrete plans to be with
30:36
Speaker 2: Susan Smith if she was released. Quote, we brainstormed a lot.
30:42
Speaker 2: She'd send me letters and talk about her plans if
30:45
Speaker 2: she gets paroled. She thought about some sort of advice blog,
30:52
Speaker 2: or maybe prison reform or some way she could be
30:58
Speaker 2: active on social media. She even asked me how she
31:05
Speaker 2: could get on Dancing with the Stars because she said
31:08
Speaker 2: that everyone would watch her. Okay, everyone's watching her, but
31:13
Speaker 2: for all the wrong reasons. Susan Smith, woman, you killed
31:18
Speaker 2: your two little boys in a horrible way. You're not
31:22
Speaker 2: going on Dancing with the Stars, or at least I
31:24
Speaker 2: think you're not. What happened to those two precious boys.
31:30
Speaker 2: The narrative, her story that she projects is so different
31:36
Speaker 2: from reality. Life has not passed her by. She committed
31:41
Speaker 2: double murder, that that's what happened. It's not anyone's fault
31:46
Speaker 2: but her own.
31:47
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
31:48
Speaker 4: I mean, and if life has passed her by, how
31:52
Speaker 4: does she characterize what she did to her son? She
31:56
Speaker 4: took their life away. They didn't even have the opportunity
31:59
Speaker 4: to live a life. I mean, these were really young
32:02
Speaker 4: kids here, and I think you know the pattern of
32:06
Speaker 4: behavior that she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked
32:11
Speaker 4: up while she's been in prison. I mean, all of
32:13
Speaker 4: this doesn't tend to show that this is someone who
32:16
Speaker 4: has been rehabilitated while in prison. I mean she's still
32:19
Speaker 4: showing those signs of manipulation that you know she engaged
32:24
Speaker 4: in before she was convicted in Sensus, you know, leading
32:29
Speaker 4: on the nation for nine days, telling lies about what
32:32
Speaker 4: actually happened, telling lies and bringing fingers of people that
32:35
Speaker 4: didn't exist.
32:36
Speaker 9: So this is a.
32:37
Speaker 4: Really deeply disturbed individual.
32:39
Speaker 2: Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and
32:43
Speaker 2: host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated
32:47
Speaker 2: at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
32:52
Speaker 2: very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
32:59
Speaker 2: who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
33:03
Speaker 2: Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy,
33:08
Speaker 2: and that she quote always had a messy love life.
33:14
Speaker 2: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
33:20
Speaker 2: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying
33:25
Speaker 2: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
33:29
Speaker 2: interludes with her Chris McDonough, have you ever met a
33:34
Speaker 2: charming murder defendant, because I have absolutely Nancy.
33:38
Speaker 6: And what's interesting about her is we have to always
33:42
Speaker 6: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
33:47
Speaker 6: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
33:52
Speaker 6: has always, throughout her entire case and through her life
33:57
Speaker 6: here while in prison and even before prison, she always
34:01
Speaker 6: sometimes projected the words of the day into her vocabulary.
34:07
Speaker 6: And if we listen real carefully to the minutia of
34:11
Speaker 6: what she said in the very beginning, whoever they are,
34:16
Speaker 6: please bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but
34:21
Speaker 6: she talks about one in terms of a description. And
34:26
Speaker 6: now if we fast forward that to today, we have
34:29
Speaker 6: six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that
34:34
Speaker 6: piece of the puzzle out. You know, that's for the
34:37
Speaker 6: doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she
34:41
Speaker 6: is utilizing that behavior still to this day, by talking
34:47
Speaker 6: about money, by talking about sexual you know, TIFFs there
34:53
Speaker 6: between the two of them, and she hasn't lost a
34:57
Speaker 6: spot from miss Leopard, you.
34:59
Speaker 2: Know, Morgan, maybe we just know too much when it
35:02
Speaker 2: comes to murder, because when I think of Susan Smith,
35:06
Speaker 2: I immediately think of being trapped, strapped in to a
35:11
Speaker 2: car as it's going down a ramp and going underwater
35:16
Speaker 2: and seeing the water coming up on either side and
35:18
Speaker 2: starting to pour in through the windshields. It comes up
35:22
Speaker 2: around you and you can't get out. I mean, the
35:26
Speaker 2: children in this case were three and fourteen months.
35:30
Speaker 7: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
35:35
Speaker 7: here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
35:40
Speaker 7: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
35:46
Speaker 7: one other element we have to consider. And again I
35:50
Speaker 7: go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
35:53
Speaker 7: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids
35:55
Speaker 7: and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is it
35:59
Speaker 7: the kids are afraid of late at night? It's darkness,
36:02
Speaker 7: and it would you would not have been able to
36:05
Speaker 7: have seen your hand in front of your face. So
36:07
Speaker 7: not only are they absent a loving mother who normally
36:12
Speaker 7: you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented,
36:17
Speaker 7: they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's
36:19
Speaker 7: cold and it's dark down there. And that's that goes
36:23
Speaker 7: to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.
36:28
Speaker 1: You know, I've been.
36:31
Speaker 2: I've been lighthearted as I discussed Susan Smith wanting to
36:36
Speaker 2: be on Dancing with the Stars. Other criminals have been on,
36:41
Speaker 2: but no criminal that has been charged with murder, much
36:45
Speaker 2: less convicted in the deaths of two toddlers, two little boys.
36:53
Speaker 2: This shows beyond all doubt that Susan Smith thinks about
36:57
Speaker 2: one thing and one thing only, just as she did the.
37:01
Speaker 1: Day she murdered her boys herself.
37:07
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace signing off good bye friend.