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Wholehearted WRITING Rhythms in a Dark Season with Douglas McKelvey Every Moment Holy) · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wiggs, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you are new here, then welcome to a community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get started.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friend, welcome back to this podcast mini-series.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm continuing my conversation with Douglas McKelvey, who is the author of the Every Moment Holy series.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're going to focus on the process of writing prayers and how creativity can be an act of worship even in the darkest seasons.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you're a writer or simply looking for a way to process life's challenges, I believe the conversation will inspire and encourage you.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't listened to last week's episode, I do encourage you to start there.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: As Douglas definitely shares in a more linear fashion about his history of writing these prayers and his journey as a writer.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Both episodes just blend so beautifully together and really highlight the wholehearted rhythms.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking about year in and year out.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So last week was about worship, today is about writing, and really both of them blend together with a writing as worship sort of feel.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this year I'm orienting this little mini-series to be focused on these themes and these anchoring rhythms, even in life's struggles, trials, or storms.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: I personally would sum up 2024 as a dark night of the soul.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Man, there's so much to unpack here that I won't try today, but I don't think I'm alone in that.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think 2024 was exceptionally hard for some people.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if it wasn't for you, that's okay.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that you take these conversations, that you apply these wholehearted rhythms to your life.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when and if you face those tough circumstances, you come back to these anchoring rhythms because I personally, well, I don't know what I'd do without them.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope to impart the benefit and the goodness and the greatness of rooting yourself in Christ.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's continue with this conversation with Douglas McKelvey.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, in line with that prayer in particular, that has meant a lot to me and you having, I'm sure, more than one, you know, dream that didn't seed the fullness that you thought it would.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Did you write a lot of the prayers before you pitched the idea?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like had you already been working on this, or it was kind of like, maybe I'll see if there's interest and then I'll go for it.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: How did you choose to do that?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of what came first?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, there are a couple threads in that answer, maybe more than two.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'll see if I can keep them in my head at the same time and give a coherent response.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: The project initially began because I was working on a novel and had hit a patch of probably a couple months where I just had not made much progress.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so much of that was my own fault and lack of discipline.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: I would sit down in the morning to write and then just, you know, would waste hours often on things that needed to be done, but what I really needed to be doing was working on the book.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I my friends can relate.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure many of them are going, yes, we we've been in there for sure, or are there.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it reached a head for me one day where it was just like, I I can't just keep doing exactly the same thing because I've gotten into this unhelpful rhythm.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna write a prayer that would refocus me, that would use the word orientation earlier.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think that's a key word for just what liturgy in general can do for us, that it can serve to reorient our hearts.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that morning, that's what I was thinking.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I need something when I sit down that's going to freshly orient my heart and mind toward my creator, toward a remembrance that I am a steward of whatever gifts I've been given, and a steward of these hours that I've been given today.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to be faithful with those.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: I want to exercise discipline in trying to create something here, and I need the reorientation in terms of this the underlying hope of what I'm doing, that I'm hoping to use the gifts I've been given to serve the community around me, right?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: By offering something to them that might be meaningful in various ways to them.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I wrote a liturgy for fiction writers, which is in volume one, but that was the first prayer I wrote, and without thought of a book or a larger project, sure.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: I sent that to Andrew Peterson because there was a Hutchmood conference coming up, and we were doing a session together along with Heidi Johnston, who's a an author from Northern Ireland.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that because the subject matter of that session was about story and storytelling and storytellers, that liturgy might be an interesting way to end it, to have everyone pray that together.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And Andrew responded and was excited about the liturgy, but he said, I wish I had a liturgy for beekeeping and maybe gardening and another thing or two.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was in reading his response that I was just like, Oh, yeah, yeah, there's something there.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's something in this idea, in the model of this kind of prayer applied to all sorts of daily activities and seasons of life and emotions that could really be of service to the church in a number of ways.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I immediately started drafting a proposal for a book at that point.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And by the end of that afternoon, I had put together a proposal that I don't think there was anything significant about what the book became that wasn't part of that just initial, you know, rapid expansion of the vision of what it might be, um, including the style of artwork that would be in it.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I wasn't familiar with Ned Bustard, who has done the artwork for the books at that time.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was during the process of working through writing and the design of the book with the folks at Rabbit Room Press that I met him.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: And over the years since we've become really good friends.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: But that was one of the threads.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Can you just briefly restate your question?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, no problem.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think it'll spark the other thread that I did leave.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is this is so neat.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we've very much gone off script, if you will.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's certain personalities that like to prepare a lot before podcasts, and some who love to go off the cuff.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so Enneagram force could be either way.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm loving this and I'm loving the storytelling nature of your responses.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this is beautiful.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, this is where I wondered as I read the liturgies, and again, there's three volumes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, okay, how does someone do this?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it feels masterful.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like songwriting.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is so other than in my world.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like writing, yes, I want to be a fiction writer, I want to be a non-fiction writer.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are things that I can understand.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: But writing prayers that hold such meaning and depth and beauty and music are beyond me.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think it's so interesting that actually this ties together because you have experience of death of a really big dream and even an income loss.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you probably go through what was years of wilderness and wondering what on earth was that all about or what this purpose and what I'm gonna do, to the struggle with looking at a blank page and struggling with that doing repression, that force sometimes get into that stuck cycle.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like ready, you're ready for that moment where you're offering something pure, an intention of helping and support.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And what I see is from the heart of God.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then you're ready for that moment where that idea comes and you leap at it and you run with it and you do your thing, which is so amazing.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So Andrew Peterson gives you like, hey, I want something for beekeeping and this, which I've always looked at the beekeeper and like, huh, I think it'd be cool to be a beekeeper.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Who wants prayers for beekeeping?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: But okay, so from there, you have now three volumes and the website's a beautiful gift because you can download prayers.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I have done that as a gift for people to share in a time of need when I can't send them the whole book.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's also many facets of this.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's really remarkable for people who are new to you.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You once you get into this, this is a God moment.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is a holy moment where you offer something and it begins, it catalyzes something really phenomenal.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when I was writing the book, um, I mean to answer your earlier question a little more fully, I I did write a handful of prayers initially and made that part of the pitch.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: And when the editor at Rabbit Room Press said yes to it, I I continued working on it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: It was about a year-long process of writing volume one.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a sense that the rabbit room community would be served by this, that they would appreciate it, that it would resonate with them.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know whether it would reach beyond that group of a few thousand people or not.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I had had, as you alluded to, some years of wrestling, some wilderness sort of years, in which these other things that I had pursued that seemed like they might work out, and none of them had quite worked out.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I found myself in a season of life approaching 50 years old with college costs for three kids.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh it's a lot, yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, my sources of income had dried up, the songwriting had dried up, I had done film and video work after that, but that's a business that can tend to expand and contract with the economy in general.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I wasn't making much of a living from that anymore.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I found myself in a season where I was doing the janitorial work and setup and teardown for my church every week.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: I was driving for Uber and Lyft, ferrying intoxicated people around Nashville late at night.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of stories.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it was a dark night of the soul in some ways, because it was just this extended season of several years of okay, what was that all about?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Disappointment.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's just been one carrot after another that's been dangling right in front of me, and then you know, just dissipate in one way or another.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: But but the place that that that led me to was, I think, first one of beginning to ask the questions of okay, so what if this is what the rest of my life looks like?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: What what if this doesn't change?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: What if I have to keep hustling odd jobs like this just to try to pay the house note and the electric bill every month?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: If that's the case, is God unfaithful?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Are his promises any less true?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Are my hopes shaken in some way?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: So during that season when I was writing volume one, I didn't know how it would be received.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: And over the previous 25 years, I had done so much speculative work that there really was no longer any relationship in my mind between the work that I do and the monetary returns that come from it, because probably only 10% of the work that I did would yield any sort of income.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it was just this constant process of generating ideas and chasing things down, and sometimes something would land to some degree, but nothing had ever landed enough that you know, that it gave financial security on a long-term basis.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: So it was just a lot of trying to piece things together, um, to cobble various sources of income together.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so as I was writing prayers like a liturgy for the death of a dream, that was very wrought and personal.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: I was still in that place, I was still doing the janitorial work at my church for you know a few hours a week and doing those sorts of things.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then in asking that question of, okay, can I find peace in this, even if this is the way things are, can I still trust God?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I reached a place of being able to say, Well, yeah, I think I can do that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the next question was, okay, so if none of the things that I pursue creatively ever meet with you know any sort of measure of success by this the standards of the culture around us, and um, you know, what most of us hope for when we're making songs or movies or writing books or or whatever it might be?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: In the absence of the success of anything like that, what does it mean to steward well whatever gifts I have and whatever ideas I'm passionate about that I believe that that is from God?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Am I willing to still put the time into faithfully stewarding those projects and ideas and bring them to fruition, knowing that God's timing isn't my timing, and that things that seem insignificant might have an unseen effect, or it might just be about the work God is is doing in my heart.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it goes back to that, you know, always looking for some kind of immediate explanation by which we could make sense of the confusing parts of life, so as not to need faith, I guess.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that the choice?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: We want we want sight, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Even the choice of faith or sight.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: We we want sight, and it's an understandable instinct, but being in a place that requires faith is what pushes us into the arms of God and and draws us into communion with Him, and we find that in Him is the fulfillment of all the things that we thought we wanted.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right Amen.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: But in that season of my life, as I was working on the book, it was a a time of a lot of difficulty, a lot of turbulence, a lot of just kind of weird and unsettling things happening in many facets of life where it just felt like the wheels had had fallen off every part of my life.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: So even during that year that I was writing the book, it was a very confusing season, even in ways that were on top of just that that general dark night of the soul that had lasted several years.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: And more than anything for me, the the process of writing that first book was just about not saying no.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been so easy on any given day for me just to give up and walk away from it because it was just too daunting.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: I knew that I didn't have within me what was needed for this book to become what I knew it should be.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting, yeah.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a process that forced me literally to my knees again and again, sometimes multiple times in an hour, because I would work for a little while and then just be overwhelmed by how I can't do this.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: I can't see my way through this prayer, let alone the book.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you know, and yeah, it feels like an enormous task.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I mean it was daunting to me for sure.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I I really began to identify with the little boy who showed up to hear Jesus, you know, talk to the crowd with his basket of a few loaves and and a couple small fish, just enough for his own lunch, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: And just recognizing and praying.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: And this, you know, since you have volume three, you've probably seen in the introduction for the forward and the first prayer that's the introduction for the book, how much I kind of dig into that imagery as part of this prayer for all of us in the body of Christ, this recognition that what God calls us to, we do not have the resources within ourselves to fulfill any more than his followers did on that day when he told them, you feed these people.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And he told them that before he did anything miraculous, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: And their response was you want us to spend a year's wages on this, but and there's nowhere to get food for all these people.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: What are you asking of us?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then his response is, Well, what do you have?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Go find out.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: So they go, you know, spread out and circulate amongst the crowd, and they come back and they're like, Well, we've found these two little fish and and these five loaves, and you know, and probably there was there was some attitude of we told you so.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: So what are what are you getting at?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and then you know, Jesus tells them, bring them to me.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: And they bring that little bit that they have that they didn't even prepare or or generate.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: It was, you know, the the generosity of of a little kid who was like, Okay, I'll share my lunch.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's such a good story and so much that we can draw from it in so many facets of life.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to remember as well, there may have been other times that the Lord uses, you know, the lows and fetch, but it maybe doesn't look quite like the multitude that we get to see recorded here.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that sometimes that's just what we offer.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's true.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really interesting because sometimes the way the years work with these wholehearted rhythms, I get to do an extra week of wait.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And because a lot of times that's what it is that we're doing is waiting.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've illustrated really well, like you've highlighted that and taught us a lot of things of what we do while we wait.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so kind of in the vein of it really being a worship focus, and the reason why to me was these prayers being worship.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what it does look like in your daily rhythm of worship, whether you're on your knees asking God to help you carry out this daunting task, or just continue on the work of loving him and living in Christ and the transformation or you know, conforming to be more like Christ.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how does that worship play out in your everyday?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that I find the title of a book that's several hundred years old now.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: I find the title helpful.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't I haven't read the book.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I know people who have and have heard them talk about it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but brother Lawrence wrote a book called Practicing the Presence of God.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: And the first time I heard that title referenced, it was probably 30 years ago, and it was just kind of a question mark of what's that mean, practicing the presence of God.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, now I understand that what he means is practicing an ongoing awareness of the reality of the truth, that God is always present with us and always desires to be in communion with us, for us to be in communion with him, and that there is no circumstance that he will waste, that um the heart that is yielded to him, he will use every circumstance, difficult, pleasant, you know, ambivalent, whatever it might be, that as our hearts are yielded to him, he will use all things for our good to draw us nearer to him.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, um that's something I find that I need constant reminders.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um I told someone the other day that a pastor that I had years ago used the term practical atheist in describing himself and saying, you know, so often I go through my days living as a practical atheist, that yes, in terms of intellectual ascent, I believe these truths of scripture, I believe that God is with me, and yet I give myself to all these distractions and and worries and stresses without you know that I carry all these things on my own without turning to God in in conversation and prayer and and awareness of his presence with me.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's so easy for me as well to um to slip into just living kind of a dislocated life, just drifting along.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I need those reorienting reminders, you know, more than just daily, really.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: So there are rhythms that are part of my life that you know most mornings when I wake up, the the first thing I do before I get my coffee or make my bed or or anything else is just to kneel beside my bed, and I'm not spending a long time praying then.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a short reorienting moment of recognizing that I have a king, that I'm not the captain of my own life or or even of this day, right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that I would do well to yield my heart at the start of the day to the purposes of the one who made me and who knows what my deepest needs are, and to try to follow him through the day.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that's just one thing that has become part of the rhythm of my life that I need.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I need that right at the beginning because I know even with that, I'm still gonna stray, I'm still gonna, you know, yes um go my own way in in some ways during that day.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: But what has become meaningful to me about liturgical rhythms, and I didn't grow up in a tradition that had any sort of formal liturgy, so it was something I came to later in life.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but what what has been meaningful about that is the way that those types of rhythms and even on a bigger scale in the church calendar, the you know, the those things that are observed in Lint and Advent and that that they all can serve as just this continual reorienting toward God, toward the bigger story that He is telling, so that we don't get lost inside being preoccupied with our own small stories.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: But actually it's liberating in the sense that we recognize that our small story does have meaning, and that God is involved with that, and he's placing that in the context of this bigger story, and he's weaving you know the story of each of our lives into that and weaving them with one another, and he is the architect of that, and we have neither the wisdom or the foresight to do that, so the sooner we can be about this business of learning to trust and just follow and be faithful and not be so invested in the immediate outcomes and the way we perceive those, the better, yeah, it will be.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: So that was one of the things that I hoped from the beginning of writing volume one that these books might offer to people, especially to other people like me who didn't grow up with any sort of liturgical tradition, but is prayers that that they might be able to integrate into the existing rhythms of their lives, but in such a way that it could reframe a moment.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, whether that's the first hearth fire of the season or changing a diaper, or, you know, when you go camping, or whatever those prayers might be that are in the books that would fit with the hobbies and the vocations and the place in life in relation to marriage and kids and and so forth that that someone finds themselves in.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: The hope was that there would be certain prayers that they would find that would just fit with their life in such a way that it could turn some of those moments that already exist in their life into moments of practicing the presence of God, of you know, being reminded that, oh yeah, God, God is here and this moment is significant because of his presence with us.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: And also of you know, looking at some of those moments of life and saying, okay, can we connect the dots to where how this moment actually does have eternal significance?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, where does this small moment if we believe as Christians that all of history is moving toward this world made new, this new creation, and this marriage supper of the Lamb, and you know, God dwelling again with his people, if that's where all of history is going, then this moment, you know, when I'm making my coffee this morning, that is a moment that sits on that timeline in this movement, you know, towards that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: So can we unpack that in a way that gives us a greater sense of the holiness that that moment is actually infused with, whether we recognize it or not?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so good.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it truly is just reimagining that every moment has significance and there is holiness to be found, and the presence of God is there with us.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, even this conversation of worship has evolved over the years.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think as I've learned, but also bringing in people who have learned as well that we tend to make worship a performance when it's a way of being and engaging with the Lord by always being mindful of the Lord is a friend and brother, but savior and holy and other than and create significance in what could be insignificant.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: So this conversation, like what comes to my mind as I'm thinking over this last hour, has been this beautiful tapestry that I didn't see coming.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was expectant and excited to get to talk.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but I've heard so much rich story.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say thank you.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that and really giving some of your heart of that has gone into this work.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm curious, just as we finished, as a forward thinker and as someone who has readily consumed your books, I am grateful, or these prayer books specifically, I'm grateful that I have not had to dive into the fullness of volume two as an Enneagram 7, even like when I've needed it on some moments or looking through it just when I've needed it to send to others.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, Lord, thank you.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is not right now, but I know it will be someday.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so thank you for these prayers.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you see the future of this?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are times where I'm like, oh, I should suggest this prayer because this would be really cool.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have more that just keep coming about where you're like, oh, that would be neat to write?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or you have people who say, you should do a prayer for this or that.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, with volume one, we opened it up during that year when I was writing the prayers.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: We opened it up to the Rabbit Room community asking them, hey, what are topics that you would like to have a prayer for?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so a number of the topics that are in volume one are there because those were topics that other people suggested.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: And since the books have been published, there's been a steady stream over the last eight years of people requesting specific topics.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: And we've kept a list, it's a long list of potential.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine, yes.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm working on volume four now.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And also we've started a new thing within the last year, um, because volume three was a new format in that I invited 60 authors to participate in writing prayers.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: So there are, you know, a lot of voices represented there, not just my own.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: But within the there's an every moment holy app that Rabbit Room Press has developed.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: Which is fantastic.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I recommend it to all my clients.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, so it gives a person access to all of the prayers from volumes one, two, and three.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we've started doing a new thing where there are guest writers, and so multiple times within the year there are new prayers posted there that at this time are only, you know, app only content.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's possible that down the road they would end up in another book.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: But we're trying to create more room and more avenues for new prayers, you know, as they're generated to be offered to people.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And after writing the first two books on my own, um, there was something very joyful about the process of working with so many other people.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: I bet.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: And volume three is subtitled The Work of the People, which fit on a number of very fitting levels.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, but one of them was just that process of it really being a labor of community of many voices being represented.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's fantastic.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for what's to come out of this ministry.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've ended up uh coaching coaches, is what I've been doing.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot of my day and rhythms and my work and ministry.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I find myself coming back to it's all along obedience in the same direction.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's Eugene Peterson's.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fantastic book, but it applies to so much.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we forget not only in our spiritual journey, but in the work of our hands and our creative endeavors and the desires of our in our dreams is that I think you're a testament to this has been a long obedience and you have kept going and um been faithful to that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just really neat.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that sometimes in our obedience where we we still have desirable outcome, and maybe your expectations are still bigger than the outcome.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I can testify as a grateful recipient of your work.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just thank you for staying the course and staying faithful to those rhythms and those practices, even in the dark nights, even in the wilderness, even in the wandering and the waiting that you have done, because there's good fruit.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so thank you.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for what you've done.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Annie.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I so appreciated this lengthy conversation.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really grateful for how it fit so beautifully in these series and could be parsoned out both to talk about worship and writing.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And also I really appreciate how this conversation reminded me of the power of stewarding your creativity, even when life feels disappointing or your creativity gift isn't getting you where you thought you would, or just the outcome doesn't match your expectations.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe that writing is a sacred rhythm.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a way to meet with God, voice your struggle, and find renewed hope through the pages and coming back to those pages day in and day out.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, I would love for you to check out the Every Moment Holy series.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of the three volumes could be really meaningful to you in your chapter of life.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: The prayers that he has written or are captured in those books have really been a lifeline for me, offering language and words I didn't even know I needed, but speaking for my soul and helping formulate words of hope as I needed to preach to myself on my darkest days.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you happen to be walking through your own dark season or coming out of one, know that you're not alone.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe this, that God's presence is with you, even in the liminal waiting space.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you don't feel it, I know he hasn't abandoned you.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Continue to reach and seek out the Lord's presence.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: So in this year ahead, whether it's a bright and sunny season or a dark one, I want to encourage you to continue to pursue wholehearted rhythms of worship, writing, and faithfulness one step at a time.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, next week I have an exciting conversation with Anthony O'Neill.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: He is a larger-than-life personality that you might be familiar with because of his affiliation with the Ramsey Solution Group.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, he talks about finances and he comes at it from the perspective as a black single male.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: So he has a unique take on finances.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And to add to the uniqueness of his story is he actually was homeless for a time.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he understands what it is like to struggle financially.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about wholehearted abundance, or even what some people might define as wealth in next week's conversation.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Goes, of course, the word wealth goes along really well when we're talking about word worship and right this year.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so while wealth could be a way to sum it up, I feel like the word abundance more sets the theme of what I have in the days to come for you all here in the wholehearted community.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you're definitely gonna want to make sure you're subscribed to the podcast on your favorite listening platform so you do not miss next week's episode with Anthony O'Neill.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Until then, friend, remember we're all broken, we're all booing it.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the brave one who does something about it.