Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #48 Bake Sales and the House of God

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#48 Bake Sales and the House of God · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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Hey everyone,
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Tim Wright here along with Terry Summers and John D.
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Burgess.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering if you've ever gone to church on a Sunday morning,
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and as you were walking into the narthex or the lobby or maybe
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outside the doors,
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some of the youth were out there selling baked goods to raise
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money for a missions trip.
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SPEAKER_01: Or maybe someone was selling some crafts that they had made,
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SPEAKER_01: and it was a fundraiser for women's ministry.
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Or maybe someone was selling some of those really excellent Tim
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Wright books,
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Toby Baxter books.
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SPEAKER_01: And you had this little catch in your spirit, and you thought,
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SPEAKER_01: have we just turned God's house of worship into a den of robbers?
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SPEAKER_01: So I have been in churches where we have done things like that.
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SPEAKER_01: And people have asked the question, should we really be doing this?
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SPEAKER_01: And ironically today,
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we're actually going to look at the story where Jesus goes in
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and he cleanses the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're going to ask the question, what is he up to?
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SPEAKER_01: And let me just give you just a quick review of where we've been.
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SPEAKER_01: We are in what we call Holy Week in terms of our Bible study.
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SPEAKER_01: So last week we looked at Jesus' journey or parade into Jerusalem,
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and we saw that it was really Jesus putting into motion some
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things that were going
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SPEAKER_01: to ultimately lead to his death.
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SPEAKER_01: And in this case,
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SPEAKER_01: the parade into Jerusalem was a political statement,
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SPEAKER_01: a subversive political statement.
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He was saying,
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Pilate,
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representing the Roman government,
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he marches in with war and tyranny.
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SPEAKER_01: The kingdom of God rides in in humility and will prove to be stronger.
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SPEAKER_01: And so this is a political action where Jesus,
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SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
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SPEAKER_01: almost mocks the Roman Empire as he rides into Jerusalem.
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SPEAKER_01: Now he's going to go into the religious place,
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SPEAKER_01: the temple,
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SPEAKER_01: the sacred place,
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SPEAKER_01: the holiest of holy places for the Jewish people,
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SPEAKER_01: and he's going to commit another subversive act.
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SPEAKER_01: And this is going to get him into more trouble.
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SPEAKER_01: But again, let's remember, these aren't things that just happen to Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: He's doing them intentionally.
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SPEAKER_01: And so the question today in today's Bible study is,
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SPEAKER_01: why is he going in intentionally to muck things up in the temple?
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SPEAKER_01: And so we have got with us today to read for us Terry Summers,
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SPEAKER_01: who has actually seen a play in Pantages Theater,
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SPEAKER_01: as I have,
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SPEAKER_01: in Hollywood.
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SPEAKER_01: And we have sat where the stars have performed.
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SPEAKER_01: So Terry, just by osmosis, that makes us famous.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So because you're famous, because you've been in Hollywood.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: John, you ever been there?
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SPEAKER_00: I have, but not in the theater that you're talking about.
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SPEAKER_00: So I don't count.
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SPEAKER_01: John doesn't count.
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SPEAKER_01: John's just going to give us insight then.
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SPEAKER_01: So Terry, would you please read our passage?
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SPEAKER_01: We are in Mark chapter 11, verses 15 through 19.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'd love to.
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And they came to Jerusalem and he entered the temple and began
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to drive out those
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SPEAKER_02: who sold and those who bought in the temple.
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And he overturned the tables of the money changers and the
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seats of those who sold pigeons.
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SPEAKER_02: And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.
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SPEAKER_02: And he was teaching them and saying to them, Is it not written?
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SPEAKER_02: My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations,
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SPEAKER_02: but you have made it a den of robbers.
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And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking
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a way to destroy him.
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SPEAKER_02: For they feared him because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.
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SPEAKER_02: And when evening came, they went out of the city.
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SPEAKER_01: All right.
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SPEAKER_01: So again, just the context, this is the next day.
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SPEAKER_01: Sunday, Jesus rides into Jerusalem as a king.
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SPEAKER_01: And today he goes into the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: And in a sense,
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SPEAKER_01: by doing what he's doing,
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he is claiming for himself an authority in that temple that
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will hack off the
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religious leaders and then finally set into motion what's going
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to happen on Friday.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: So we're going to talk about what he's up to here.
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And we've called this,
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I've sort of tongue in cheek called this bake sales in the
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house of God.
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SPEAKER_01: But what's really going on here?
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're going to talk about today.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: John,
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SPEAKER_01: as you were listening this time,
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SPEAKER_01: and of course,
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SPEAKER_01: we've been through this a few times before,
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SPEAKER_01: what stands out for you?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, the first thing that stands out is what is in narthex?
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SPEAKER_02: I was going to say the same thing.
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I had to Google that for our listeners that are under 50 and
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say it's just a lobby.
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SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
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SPEAKER_01: I wanted to sort of be church correct for those who are listening,
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SPEAKER_01: who understand narthex and the altar area and all the other things.
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SPEAKER_00: But yes, lobby.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is, you know, for...
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for like a modern day comparison maybe it would even be closer
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to like the little
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coffee shop that's in the the church as you walk in where you
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can get some coffee
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and a donut and you pay for that right there's a little bit of
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commerce going on
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right there yep that's right so some history here tim uh and
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i'm going to show off
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my very pedestrian understanding of this uh and so i apologize
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to those listeners
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SPEAKER_00: who are way ahead of me on this but
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What what is happening a little bit here before the overturning
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of the tables is
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you would you would travel to the synagogue or the temple and
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you would get there
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SPEAKER_00: and you would have to take your money,
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change it for a different kind of money and then take the
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different kind of money
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SPEAKER_00: and purchase something that you're going to use as a sacrifice.
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SPEAKER_00: In other words,
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you weren't expected to travel to temple with doves in a cage
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and doves are the
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SPEAKER_00: starting point.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'll pause for you can correct me here.
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SPEAKER_00: But doves are the starting point.
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But depending on levels of sacrifice that you would be seeking
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under the religious law,
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SPEAKER_00: you might get closer to lambs or other mammals or other animals,
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SPEAKER_00: which would be more expensive.
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SPEAKER_00: So there actually is like some sort of utility happening here.
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SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's right.
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SPEAKER_01: So people are coming to the temple to make their sacrifices.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course, this is the Passover season.
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So one of the hopes of every Jewish person living in Israel is
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that at some point
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SPEAKER_01: in their lives,
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SPEAKER_01: they can make a trip to Jerusalem.
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SPEAKER_01: And actually,
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many people tried to do it every year and to make their
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sacrifices at the temple
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SPEAKER_01: during Passover.
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SPEAKER_01: But a lot of them say traveling from Galilee or other places,
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it was just not possible for them to bring their livestock with
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them to sacrifice.
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SPEAKER_01: So you're right.
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SPEAKER_01: They would bring in their money.
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They would have to exchange it for temple money,
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which was made holy,
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so to speak.
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And then in the temple,
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they would buy their sacrifices so that they could sacrifice them.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's understand what's happening here.
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SPEAKER_01: That's all kosher.
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SPEAKER_01: They're providing a service for people.
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There's nothing wrong with what they are doing in terms of
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providing this service
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for people who travel long distances and want to make a
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sacrifice in the temple.
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So it's important to keep that in mind when we look at what
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Jesus is mad about here
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SPEAKER_01: in this story.
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SPEAKER_01: So yes, you've raised some good, interesting background.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: And then, so for me, there's a, you know, he says den of thieves.
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SPEAKER_00: That's pretty strong.
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SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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SPEAKER_00: Number one.
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SPEAKER_00: And so there's something else going on,
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SPEAKER_00: but then I probably going to surprise both of you here with this,
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SPEAKER_00: but this is one of those provisions in the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: This is one of those pieces of scripture that,
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Which to me shows a little bit of righteous indignation or even
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anger on the part of Jesus.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: Which then I have to think about is that...
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SPEAKER_00: You know, is that a fair emotion?
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Because a lot of folks,
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you know,
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are like,
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let's not get angry with each other.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, we could use some of that in the world today.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's face it, right?
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SPEAKER_00: We don't have that.
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SPEAKER_00: We have the opposite problem, probably.
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But we're seeing a real human part of Jesus here with what
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looks like anger.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're flipping over tables.
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SPEAKER_00: You're not mincing words or actions.
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SPEAKER_00: And that is always very, very important to me and very interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: So I want to comment it now so we don't forget.
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SPEAKER_01: We see God throughout the Old Testament get angry.
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But it's always important to understand what angers God in the
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Old Testament,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's what angers Jesus in the New Testament.
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What angers God in the Old Testament is when people take
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advantage of the weak and
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SPEAKER_01: the vulnerable.
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SPEAKER_01: When...
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SPEAKER_01: when the Israelites,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: don't feed the poor,
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SPEAKER_01: don't care for the widow or the orphan,
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SPEAKER_01: don't treat the stranger with dignity and respect,
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SPEAKER_01: those kinds of injustices are what angers God.
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SPEAKER_01: And so oftentimes when we think about anger,
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SPEAKER_01: we think about being mad at people or disagreeing with someone's opinion,
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SPEAKER_01: whether it's political or about movies,
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SPEAKER_01: whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: and we just get angry at them.
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SPEAKER_01: For God,
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the anger that God has is a sense of indignation at people
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being treated as less
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SPEAKER_01: than human.
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SPEAKER_01: And so even though he's angry at the people who are
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SPEAKER_01: not treating others fairly.
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SPEAKER_01: He's really angry at the systems and the injustices.
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SPEAKER_01: And the anger always motivates calls for change.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, right now I'm reading a book called The Outrage Machine.
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It's on how social media over the years has really devolved
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into essentially
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SPEAKER_01: keeping us hooked through outrage,
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SPEAKER_01: making us angry about everything.
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SPEAKER_01: There is no
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SPEAKER_01: rhyme or reason,
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there's nothing good about the kind of anger that we live in
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today in the United
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SPEAKER_01: States of America,
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SPEAKER_01: where we're just angry.
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SPEAKER_01: That serves no useful purpose.
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SPEAKER_01: Anger in the Bible always has a purpose.
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Anger sees a wrong and is indignant about it to the point of
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wanting to change it.
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SPEAKER_01: That's what anger is.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not about disagreeing.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not about hating people.
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SPEAKER_01: It's about seeing a wrong
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SPEAKER_01: And wanting to fix it.
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SPEAKER_01: So when Jesus sees that leper.
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SPEAKER_01: That we looked at in Mark chapter 1.
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SPEAKER_01: Way back.
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SPEAKER_01: He's angry.
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SPEAKER_01: Moved with anger.
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SPEAKER_01: Not at the leper.
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SPEAKER_01: He's angry at what the leprosy is doing to the man.
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SPEAKER_01: And then Jesus is moved to heal him.
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SPEAKER_01: And now in this story.
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus is angry at.
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SPEAKER_01: A particular injustice.
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SPEAKER_01: Being done in the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: And he moves him.
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SPEAKER_01: to begin to change it.
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SPEAKER_01: That's what's happening here.
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SPEAKER_01: So yes,
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SPEAKER_01: he's angry,
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but he's angry with a purpose at a systemic issue taking place
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in the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: Does that help at all?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And so there's something going on here because we've seen other
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places where he's
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SPEAKER_00: been more of a teacher.
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SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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SPEAKER_00: And certainly he was teaching here,
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SPEAKER_00: but there has been injustices before we've seen where,
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SPEAKER_00: where there's a dialogue,
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but there's something going on here that pushes him past the
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dialogue to the next
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SPEAKER_00: level of response.
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SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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SPEAKER_01: Good.
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SPEAKER_01: Jerry.
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SPEAKER_02: Um,
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Sorry,
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I'm not going to say what I was thinking because it might be
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just too out there.
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SPEAKER_02: But so he popped into the temple prior to this, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
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SPEAKER_01: He scoped it out.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: That's what I was,
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SPEAKER_02: that's what I was just sort of putting together is that what,
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SPEAKER_02: so because you said he was,
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SPEAKER_02: this was just not rolling out kind of accidentally,
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SPEAKER_02: it was intentional choices on his part.
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SPEAKER_02: His pop into the temple.
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SPEAKER_02: Do you think that because, well, I don't really totally know
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SPEAKER_02: about the anger yet,
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SPEAKER_02: like I'm wanting to hear what you think about it,
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but I did wonder if the pop into the temple was to scope it out
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and he had a heads
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SPEAKER_02: up that this was happening or whatever angered him,
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SPEAKER_02: yeah?
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SPEAKER_02: But it was too late to get to that night, so he came back the next day?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
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SPEAKER_01: And again, I think, and I should have looked it up, but I didn't.
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In one of the tellings of this story,
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he goes directly from Palm Sunday right into the temple.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh.
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SPEAKER_01: In fact,
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John's gospel has Jesus cleaning out the temple within the
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first chapter or two of
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SPEAKER_01: his gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: So it happens at the beginning of the story.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: So if we look in the context of what Mark is doing here,
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We see Jesus now on Holy Week doing some intentional things to
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make statements about who he is.
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SPEAKER_01: And the Palm Sunday parade,
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus is using that,
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SPEAKER_01: first of all,
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SPEAKER_01: to intentionally say,
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SPEAKER_01: I am the one who's fulfilling prophecy.
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SPEAKER_01: We looked at the Zechariah prophecy of the Messiah riding in.
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But he's also using this to make a political statement that he
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is the new emperor,
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SPEAKER_01: but his empire is radically different than that of Rome's.
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SPEAKER_01: His empire is one of peace and justice and mercy and compassion,
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where the empire of the Romans is one of tyranny and death and oppression.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course, when oppressors...
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someone come in and challenge them with peace and with grace
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and compassion,
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they know that that's going to speak to the people and they're
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going to start to
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SPEAKER_01: lose their power.
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So they have to quench that kind of rebellion quickly because
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oppression knows that
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it can't stand long against compassion and peace if they let it
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go on too long.
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SPEAKER_01: So he's making a statement politically to the Romans,
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and now he's making one to the Jewish leaders about his
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authority when it comes to
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SPEAKER_01: the temple.
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SPEAKER_01: So he's going in and saying,
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SPEAKER_01: yes,
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I have the authority to say something here about what you're
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doing and to say that
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SPEAKER_01: what you're doing is contrary to the will of God.
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SPEAKER_01: That takes real chutzpah.
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SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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SPEAKER_01: to do that.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course, this angers them.
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SPEAKER_01: And people don't like to be wrong.
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These religious leaders have for the longest time believe that
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their responsibility
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SPEAKER_01: is to protect the people,
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SPEAKER_01: to protect the religious practices.
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SPEAKER_01: And sometimes when you get caught up protecting religious practices,
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the protection itself becomes the deal rather than the actual
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religious practices.
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SPEAKER_01: And you start to lose sight of
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SPEAKER_01: The people and power becomes your passion.
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SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is going in,
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SPEAKER_01: so he's challenged political power,
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SPEAKER_01: now he's challenging religious power in this story.
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SPEAKER_01: And we haven't talked yet about what it is he's actually doing.
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We're just sort of dancing around the theme at this point of
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why he goes in there,
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right?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Right.
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But I'm going to say,
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given that,
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though John mentioned there were other times that he...
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SPEAKER_02: was challenging them,
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SPEAKER_02: this idea of peace,
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SPEAKER_02: this had to kind of come,
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SPEAKER_02: do you think,
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as a shock to some who were watching him because they had not
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seen the side to him?
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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So there are,
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I'm going to use a deep theological phrase here,
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symbolic actions.
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SPEAKER_01: It's deep, isn't it?
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SPEAKER_02: It is.
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SPEAKER_01: So a symbolic action, in a sense, is like a parable.
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So when Jesus tells parables,
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his stories are always about the kingdom of God.
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SPEAKER_01: The kingdom of God is like this, and then he'll use a story.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_01: In these cases, he's doing symbolic action.
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SPEAKER_01: His actions are saying something about the kingdom of God.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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His action in the first story of the parade is that the kingdom
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of God comes in
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SPEAKER_01: humility and comes in peace.
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In this symbolic action,
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he's also saying something about the kingdom of God.
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SPEAKER_01: And again, remember, we haven't said what it is yet.
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SPEAKER_01: But what I'm saying is this is a symbolic action.
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SPEAKER_01: This becomes,
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SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
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SPEAKER_01: a parable that he's acting out to say,
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SPEAKER_01: this is what the kingdom of God looks like.
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SPEAKER_01: Or this is what my mission looks like, another way of saying it.
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SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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SPEAKER_01: This is what God's reign in the world looks like.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: That is so cool to learn about the symbolic action.
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SPEAKER_02: I had never heard of that before.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's look at what it is that he's actually...
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SPEAKER_01: upset about.
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SPEAKER_01: Please.
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SPEAKER_01: And the line is right there.
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SPEAKER_01: My house shall be called a house of prayer for whom?
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SPEAKER_00: All nations.
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SPEAKER_01: All the nations.
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SPEAKER_01: Say, what was that?
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SPEAKER_01: Some nations?
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SPEAKER_01: Just the Jews?
18:33
SPEAKER_02: All the nations.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: All the nations.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: All right.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: That's what he's upset about.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: So what is he upset about?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Here's what happens.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: In the temple,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: There were various narthexes.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: There were various lobbies.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: And there was an initial place where Gentiles could come.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: And they could worship the God of Israel in their area.
19:03
Now,
19:04
they weren't allowed to go into the next area,
19:06
which was the Jewish area.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And then the Jews weren't allowed to go into the Holy of Holies.
19:10
But there was a place for the Gentiles to come and worship the
19:13
God of Israel.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: And God wanted that because God isn't just the God of Israel.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: God is the God of all nations.
19:21
The problem was that they had taken over the entire Jewish area
19:30
or Jewish lobby selling stuff.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: So that when the Gentiles came to pray...
19:39
SPEAKER_01: there was never a quiet moment.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: All they would hear was the bleeding of animals.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: They would hear people changing coins.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: They would hear bartering going on.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: And it was no longer a place of prayer for all nations.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: It had now become the place where they were selling all of these animals,
19:57
SPEAKER_01: providing a good service,
20:00
but disrupting the ability of the Gentiles to come and worship
20:03
the God of Israel.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: And so they had taken,
20:08
SPEAKER_01: this area,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: which was meant to be the place where Gentiles could connect with Israel,
20:12
SPEAKER_01: and we're robbing them of the opportunity to do that.
20:16
And so Jesus is angry that the Jewish leaders are preventing
20:21
Gentiles from
20:22
SPEAKER_01: worshiping the God of Israel.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: That's what he's upset about.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: He's not upset that they're selling stuff.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: He's just upset where they're selling stuff.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: And what they have done to the Jewish quarter,
20:34
SPEAKER_01: they have robbed all nations of the ability to worship the God of Israel,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: to come to the God of Israel.
20:40
And the God of Israel said over and over again through the
20:42
prophets that all people are welcome.
20:46
That one day on the mountain,
20:48
there's going to be all the nations that are gathered together.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: And Jesus has come to say, yes, this is what God is about.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: God even loves the Gentiles.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And so he starts to clear that place out,
21:01
SPEAKER_01: not because they're having a bake sale,
21:04
but because they're selling in that area was robbing all
21:08
nations of the ability to
21:09
SPEAKER_01: worship God.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: That's what he's angry about.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: So then his symbolic action to be concise is?
21:22
SPEAKER_01: His symbolic action is to say that God's kingdom is for everyone.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So we had a story earlier, let the children come to me.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: And the disciples, of course, are trying to keep them.
21:36
Another way of saying it,
21:36
Jesus could stand there and say,
21:37
let the nations come to me.
21:40
And don't impede them with all of this stuff going on around
21:44
the lobby here.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: You're getting in the way of their ability to worship me.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: So if you want to sell animals, do it outside.
21:53
Yeah.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
21:57
so it was really this encroachment by probably Jewish
22:04
marketplace sellers on that area,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: which was the only area available to the Gentiles to worship God.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right, yes.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And so it was a little bit of...
22:17
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
22:17
SPEAKER_00: we're starting to get into that area,
22:18
SPEAKER_00: but I need to get my stand set up and I need to get my stand set up.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And before you knew it, there really was no area for the Gentiles.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, den of thieves seems strong.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: But who am I?
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Well,
22:32
SPEAKER_01: what basically,
22:33
I think what he's saying here is that what's more important for
22:36
you is making money
22:37
SPEAKER_01: and exchanging money than it is for all nations to worship me.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: So if we were to look at a modern day equivalent,
22:49
it wouldn't be getting upset at the kids doing a bake sale in
22:53
the church lobby.
22:55
It would be the church that says,
22:59
you're not allowed here unless you do this,
23:02
this,
23:03
and this.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: You're not allowed here unless you give up that behavior.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: You're not allowed here unless you believe the things that we believe.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: You're not allowed here if you have doubts.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: you're not allowed here if your skin color is different than ours.
23:22
So anytime a church says you are not allowed here or puts
23:29
barriers up to all people
23:31
SPEAKER_01: coming to hear the story of Jesus,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: that's where Jesus would be angry.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Because at that point, he's standing against an injustice.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: And the injustice is,
23:46
His invitation is to all peoples being thwarted by religious
23:51
leaders who are
23:53
SPEAKER_01: putting up certain barriers to people hearing the gospel.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Of course, people can't see you thinking.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: I can.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: So go ahead.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: I know.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was trying to make thinking voices.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: I do.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: If there's a pregnant pause, Terry and I are just.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And you're not the only ones thinking.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Everybody else is thinking with you.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: I feel like it can be applied in so many ways.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: on a, on a much less significant, but not really scale.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: I remember back in the day that at community church of joy,
24:43
we did some funny things to try to tell people not to park in
24:47
these parking spaces.
24:49
We were leaving them for the visitors because,
24:53
but because they happen to be closer or whatever.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
24:56
SPEAKER_02: it feels like that to me a little bit in the same way,
24:59
SPEAKER_02: like that they were encroaching and,
25:01
SPEAKER_02: it became our place or whatever that meant, quote unquote.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: But then it also feels like it's a way for God to give us a,
25:15
SPEAKER_02: gosh,
25:17
SPEAKER_02: I can't think of the word,
25:18
SPEAKER_02: but like to open up our minds,
25:21
SPEAKER_02: to include,
25:22
SPEAKER_02: to broaden out rather than being focused,
25:26
SPEAKER_02: but a way to kind of shift that,
25:31
SPEAKER_02: idea in our minds about who we all are, you know?
25:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: So see,
25:40
that's why I was making all those noises because it was that
25:43
hard for me to get all
25:46
SPEAKER_02: that out.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: So,
25:49
SPEAKER_01: so again,
25:50
I think what would have really outraged the religious leaders
25:53
was not so much the
25:55
SPEAKER_01: accusations that you're making money here.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: It would have been his radical suggestion that,
26:04
SPEAKER_01: That everybody is included in the kingdom of God.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:07
And we need to provide a place even for those unclean Gentiles
26:11
to come and worship our God.
26:14
And I think in many ways that still is what makes so many
26:22
people in the church uncomfortable.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Really, we've got to let those people in.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: We have to accept those.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not going to happen.
26:34
And you just look throughout history of the people that you
26:39
couldn't let in.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And back in the day,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: I still have memories of this,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: that if you were divorced,
26:45
SPEAKER_01: wow,
26:46
it was really a shameful thing to go to church if you were a
26:49
divorced person.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: our cultural understandings of things change,
26:54
but we still have all of these little barriers that we put up
26:58
and people feel them.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: And,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: even these churches that say we're a church for everyone,
27:06
but you walk in and you hear messages that suggest that if
27:11
you're this or you're that,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: you're not really in,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: then you're not really a church for everyone.
27:18
And I think we need to say clearly here,
27:20
that doesn't mean that we accept everything.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: We don't say to murderers, well, yeah, you're welcome here.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:28
there are certain things that we as a society and even
27:30
biblically where we say,
27:31
SPEAKER_01: no,
27:32
SPEAKER_01: we don't accept that.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Our problem has been in the church,
27:37
we have sort of gotten confused over who God accepts and what
27:42
God does not find pleasing.
27:46
And we put barriers on the wrong kinds of behaviors and actions sometimes,
27:54
SPEAKER_01: even to the point of...
27:57
You know,
27:58
if you don't believe the way that we believe,
27:59
you're not welcome here.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: In some churches, if you have doubts, you can't come here.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: So,
28:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:09
SPEAKER_01: again,
28:09
it's a radical message to say that everyone is welcome and
28:14
everyone is loved by the
28:15
SPEAKER_01: kingdom of God.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: And that was what, in a sense, Jesus was doing.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: It was symbolic action to say they're welcome here.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: And you're keeping them out and that makes God upset.
28:35
What about like cultural pockets of styles of worship or people
28:43
are reared,
28:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: that come up through their community culturally?
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan and I, it was right after COVID and there was a...
28:54
SPEAKER_02: a little church.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: We'd just been curious about it.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: It,
28:56
SPEAKER_02: it,
28:56
it met at an old bank and we drove by it all the time and they
29:01
sold Christmas trees
29:02
SPEAKER_02: at Christmas.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: And so we went one day and, um, it was, uh, we were, um, the, uh,
29:12
SPEAKER_02: of a different color.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: Um,
29:13
SPEAKER_02: it was a,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: um,
29:15
SPEAKER_02: a primarily a Mexican,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: um,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: culture,
29:19
SPEAKER_02: um,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: and super friendly,
29:22
SPEAKER_02: but boy,
29:23
SPEAKER_02: were we not like them in that simply everyone was in a suit.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: There was no facial hair and the women were all in dresses.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: And Jonathan is
29:36
SPEAKER_02: was bald headed, had a tattoo on the back of his head, a big long beard.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: I was in pants.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: And so, but yet we respected what we walked into.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: We were a little bit in the know, but what about things like that?
29:50
SPEAKER_02: Does that, how does that speak to us?
29:52
SPEAKER_02: Or is that not what, I mean, is that like fringy?
29:56
Yeah,
29:57
no,
29:57
I,
29:57
I think it's a question that churches really need to wrestle with.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: And,
30:06
three of us have been involved in churches that have wrestled
30:08
with those kinds of
30:09
SPEAKER_01: questions for 40 years.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: And let me say this.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: It is impossible.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: It is impossible for a church to be for everyone.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: But a church should be for everyone.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: And here's what I mean by it's impossible.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: If you're a church, let's say, that welcomes in
30:36
gay lesbian transgender people because you're a church for
30:41
everyone there are going
30:43
to be a number of christian people who say can't go there i
30:48
can't i think that
30:49
that's not biblical and so now it's not a church for them
30:52
gotcha right or you're a
30:58
SPEAKER_01: church that uses organ music
31:02
SPEAKER_01: because you really believe it's great art,
31:05
SPEAKER_01: it's a great way to worship,
31:07
SPEAKER_01: but we're open to anyone and everyone coming.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't like organ music or have a penchant for organ music,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: you're not going to feel welcome there.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: You may not fit in there.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's always really,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:23
the cultural questions you're asking are really important ones
31:27
that every church
31:28
SPEAKER_01: sort of has to decide
31:31
SPEAKER_01: If we believe that Jesus loves everyone,
31:34
what does it mean for us to create an environment where as many
31:37
people as possible
31:38
SPEAKER_01: feel welcome within the vision that we have?
31:42
SPEAKER_01: So we've all been a part of churches that use contemporary music.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's great.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: But what if you don't like contemporary music?
31:52
SPEAKER_01: What if you like, and forbid, country music?
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Or what if you want a church where they use...
32:00
SPEAKER_01: liturgical, classical music, right?
32:05
SPEAKER_01: So our styles can create barriers,
32:13
but I think that that's a different issue than what Jesus is
32:18
talking about.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
32:21
We're not,
32:22
I'll just talk about us and the churches that we were involved in.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: We were not setting out to say, you're not welcome here.
32:30
We were setting out to create a worship experience to set as
32:33
many people as
32:33
SPEAKER_01: possible we want to reach.
32:35
Particularly,
32:36
we want to reach those who maybe don't like more ritualistic
32:41
forms of worship.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Because there are churches for them as well.
32:47
And not every church can be for everybody,
32:49
but a bunch of churches can be for everybody.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:53
This is what Jesus is attacking here is the intentionality of
32:57
saying these people
32:59
SPEAKER_01: don't belong here.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to do everything we possibly can to keep them out.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Now, there are some churches that do that.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: And we know that.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: But there are a lot of churches where,
33:15
and it doesn't matter if they're contemporary or they use
33:17
gospel music or they use
33:18
SPEAKER_01: classical music,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: who really are open to anyone and everyone.
33:21
They just realize that not everyone is going to appreciate
33:24
their style of worship,
33:24
SPEAKER_01: but it's not because they don't want them there.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: You got to land on a style at some point.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: But that's why God created a lot of different churches.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: That's, you know, people wear different shoe sizes.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: People are attracted by different kinds of churches.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is saying something radical here.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: He's saying all nations are welcome here.
33:46
And in this case,
33:47
in the temple,
33:48
they were not welcome,
33:50
intentionally not welcomed.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
33:54
I would say that the Jewish leaders were doing things in that
33:59
space that looked religious,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: that gave them the opportunity religiously to keep the Gentiles out.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Say that one more time.
34:10
So they were making it possible for Jewish people to worship by
34:15
providing this service,
34:17
SPEAKER_01: which is a good thing.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: But their religious good thing...
34:24
SPEAKER_01: then became an excuse for them to say, you can't come here.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: There's no room for you here.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's partly the challenge that we as Christians face is,
34:35
SPEAKER_01: do we use our religiosity to justify saying to other people,
34:39
SPEAKER_01: you're not welcome here?
34:41
SPEAKER_01: That's deep.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And it might not even be something that's intentional.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Like Tim,
34:50
SPEAKER_00: when you say not every church can be everything to everybody,
34:54
the flip side of that for me is there's so many different kinds
34:58
of churches because
34:58
SPEAKER_00: there's so many different kinds of people.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
35:01
And I think that it's always good for churches to say to every
35:06
now and then to look up and say,
35:09
what are we doing to people who walk through the door that
35:12
don't look like us,
35:13
SPEAKER_00: don't think like us,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: don't act like us,
35:17
SPEAKER_00: to make them feel welcome here?
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean changing the culture of your church necessarily,
35:22
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's good to say,
35:24
what are the intentional and unintentional barriers that we
35:27
would have that make
35:28
SPEAKER_00: people feel like they're not welcome for some reason?
35:30
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: And they may, that's right.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter the style of worship.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Every church can be welcoming.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Just recognizing that,
35:41
SPEAKER_01: you know what,
35:42
there are going to be some people who may or may not like the
35:44
kind of music we use
35:45
SPEAKER_01: or the way that our preacher preaches.
35:47
But that's a different issue than saying you don't belong here
35:51
because you believe
35:52
SPEAKER_01: the wrong things,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: you look the wrong way,
35:54
SPEAKER_01: or we just don't want you here.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: Which is what Jesus is taking on in this story.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: So you've got him intentionally poking fun at the
36:03
SPEAKER_01: At the Roman Empire.
36:05
And now he comes in and he is saying something really strong to
36:11
the religious leaders.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, the God of Israel welcomes all nations.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: And that becomes for them the final straw that breaks the camel's back.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: And they begin to put into motion the death of Jesus,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: which we're going to continue to move through.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: So Terry, John, thank you very, very much.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: We do appreciate you listening.
36:36
We've been really excited to see that our listeners numbers
36:39
have been going up.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: That's because you're sharing this with your friends.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: So please continue to do that.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: And we will be back with you next time.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: We are studying the gospel of Mark.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: We are getting close to the day when Jesus is crucified.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with you next time.