Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Seeing The Pattern: Love Bombing and the Abuse Cycle

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Seeing The Pattern: Love Bombing and the Abuse Cycle · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

0:00
Carine: And the more we were moving into the relationship, the more he started to now push all my vulnerabilities to provoke me, to get me out of balance.
0:09
Carine: And it's like if you think about it, it's sickening that somebody will do that to you.
0:14
Carine: And then you just can't believe it because you would never do something like that to somebody you love.
0:23
Mary: For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek.
0:30
Mary: But in nature, violets are anything but weak.
0:33
Mary: They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem.
0:37
Mary: Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult.
0:45
Mary: It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature.
0:51
Mary: If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place.
0:56
Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
1:01
Mary: The word abuse has a million iterations.
1:04
Mary: While I can say with gratitude that I was never in an overtly abusive relationship, I did have unhealthy relationships.
1:12
Mary: And I was involved with someone who used some wicked gaslighting and manipulation.
1:17
Mary: And actually, even as I'm typing this, I'm realizing that it probably could have fit the definition of abuse at times.
1:23
Mary: See how reluctant we often are to assign that word to interactions in our own intimate relationships?
1:30
Mary: I remember working with a young woman in college, and after several sessions, it was obvious that her parents were at the least emotionally abusive.
1:38
Mary: I knew I would need to tread lightly when I introduced the idea to her that she was abused.
1:44
Mary: And sure enough, she immediately balked at that word.
1:47
Mary: Yet you'll probably not be surprised to know that the pattern was repeating in her partner relationship.
1:53
Mary: Not every person who ends up in an abusive relationship was abused in their family.
1:58
Mary: As with pretty much everything, the combination of nature and nurture is the code that often leads us through the decisions of life.
2:05
Mary: My guest today is Corrine Van He.
2:08
Mary: She is an artist, author, and speaker who uses her personal story and creative work to raise awareness about emotional manipulation.
2:16
Mary: Through her talks, art, and writing, she inspires people to choose relationships built on respect, honesty, and emotional freedom.
2:24
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Corrine.
2:28
Carine: Thank you for having me.
2:30
Carine: I'm so happy to be here.
2:31
Carine: I'm looking forward to this conversation.
2:33
Mary: Yes, we I think could probably talk over several episodes, but let's get started and see where we end up.
2:41
Mary: So, my guests often experience life events that directly influence the work they do and the priorities that they choose.
2:49
Mary: So I know you've had some impactful moments.
2:53
Mary: What were the moments for you that brought you here and that inspire what you do?
3:00
Carine: That's a big question.
3:02
Carine: Um, the biggest um insight I got, the biggest aha moment in my life, was uh at a very um sad moment when my mom passed away in 2023.
3:15
Carine: And so many strange things happened around her passing that I thought I had to look into that more deeply.
3:23
Carine: I knew that my father was like a controlling and uh authoritative person.
3:30
Carine: But looking into the the how they how he behaved around her passing and afterwards, I thought this is not normal anymore.
3:40
Carine: And as I uh dug really deep into the matter, I understood that my mom had actually been living in a toxic relationship for over 65 years, and it just broke my heart because she passed away and I couldn't do anything anymore.
3:54
Carine: Me, her daughter, hadn't even seen it.
3:58
Carine: I didn't, I didn't recognize it, it was invisible.
4:01
Carine: So, and she slowly over time retreated from life.
4:06
Carine: And my father said it was dementia, and I believed him because I didn't know about the pattern behind toxic relationships.
4:13
Carine: And when I started to dig deep into uh what is toxic relationships, what is narcissism, what is uh when we talk about narcissistic traits, what is it exactly?
4:27
Carine: I discovered uh that it is a pattern.
4:30
Carine: Yeah, and when I looked at the pattern, I could see everything very clear that happened between my mom and my dad over time.
4:39
Carine: But then I also discovered I had been in a toxic relationship more than 20 years ago, and I I didn't know that.
4:47
Carine: So to me, that was the biggest aha moment ever.
4:50
Carine: The moment you see the pattern, you cannot unsee it anymore.
4:54
Carine: But the fact is, we don't talk about it, so it's difficult to actually understand that you're in it, even when you're in it, because it feels confusing and complex, but it doesn't feel like abuse, as you said in your introduction.
5:06
Carine: Abuse is such a big word.
5:08
Carine: Yeah.
5:09
Carine: Yeah.
5:10
Mary: Wow, that is um a fascinating way to have reached your own insight to see that, see what was happening with your parents.
5:19
Mary: And you bring up a really good point.
5:21
Mary: And I think it's kind of going to be at the heart of our conversation today.
5:24
Mary: It's what how do we define all these things?
5:27
Mary: So, you know, especially with social media, it starts to become even more confusing because people can be using terms inaccurately, or they can talk about their situation or experience, and they may use terms that don't fit for somebody else.
5:45
Mary: So I want to try to tease apart some of this.
5:48
Mary: And I think really this is what your book does, and we're gonna get to that because I think from what I could tell, it's gonna, it's a really good resource.
5:57
Mary: But I first want to talk about toxic versus unhealthy, because we tend to use the word toxic kind of like we use the word gaslighting and narcissism, and you know, without really testing, is that what it is?
6:12
Mary: And so how would you tease that apart?
6:15
Mary: What would you explain is toxic versus unhealthy?
6:21
Carine: Um toxic has a pattern behind it.
6:25
Carine: Unhealthy is like I have to think a bit now.
6:31
Mary: Yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard one, and that's why I wanted to talk about it.
6:34
Carine: Yeah, yeah, it's a really thin line because uh as you say on social media I hear people talking about gaslighting and silent treatment all the time, but that doesn't.
6:44
Carine: If these words and these uh titles do not ring a bell, how do you know that you're in a toxic relationship?
6:50
Carine: And then I think we need to go to the body, we need to uh talk about how toxic relationships feel, and then we're talking about being confused, being tired, walking on exhibits all the time, being in your head all the time, ruminating about the relationship.
7:07
Carine: If you're in a healthy relationship, you do not ruminate about your relationship, you're just enjoying it.
7:13
Carine: If you're in a toxic environment, you're ruminating all the time because you don't know anymore what's going on.
7:19
Carine: So it's a bodily awareness.
7:22
Carine: But what a toxic relationship will do is it will make sure, they will make sure that you disconnect from your body and that you're in your head, in your head all the time.
7:33
Mary: Yeah, so when I'm thinking this through from maybe a therapist viewpoint, yeah, it is even hard.
7:41
Mary: I mean, you wrote a book, I do the work.
7:43
Mary: It's even we're even struggling to separate this idea.
7:47
Mary: But I think when see if this resonates for you.
7:50
Mary: I think when we're talking about the word toxic, and I really speak mostly to women, I feel like, and I'm not saying men are not abused, they totally are in certain relationships.
8:02
Mary: But if we're looking at, you know, a typical pattern for a woman, she'll start to think it's her fault.
8:10
Mary: How can she fix it?
8:12
Mary: And I think also these things don't start immediately.
8:16
Mary: I think we would walk away from most relationships if we felt that behavior in the first week.
8:23
Mary: You know, we would we would not stay there, but it starts slowly until it's sort of like, you know, the lobster that's put in the pot and slowly brought to a boil.
8:33
Mary: All of a sudden you're like, How did I get here?
8:37
Carine: Absolutely.
8:37
Carine: Yeah, absolutely.
8:39
Carine: It's a stacking over time.
8:41
Carine: And um, I think I think many people say that um when you're a victim of abuse, you're a weak person.
8:48
Carine: Well, if you're a weak person, they will never be attracted to you because they want somebody there that makes them shine even brighter, brighter.
8:56
Carine: They want somebody next to them that can elevate them, but then they will take you down afterwards.
9:01
Carine: So it starts really lovely.
9:03
Carine: I I talk to so many survivors of abuse, and we all say the same.
9:08
Carine: We all have we don't have the same stories, but the pattern is the same.
9:11
Carine: So it starts with the love bombing, and you feel so understood.
9:16
Carine: I felt so understood, so uh cared for, so supported, so loved.
9:21
Carine: I had uh it was amazing.
9:24
Carine: It felt magical.
9:25
Carine: It felt like I had a magical connection.
9:27
Carine: And when you hear that, or when you feel that, I would say now, I would say run.
9:31
Carine: It's no good.
9:32
Carine: But then it's it starts to change over time, and it's like yeah, the manipulation comes in, the isolation comes in, and it's so subtle.
9:42
Carine: It's so subtle that even the brightest of people will not feel the manipulation.
9:47
Carine: The manipulation can be really subtle because if you if somebody criticizes you for the first time, you go like, oh well, we all have a bad day.
9:57
Carine: Uh perhaps you had a bad day at work, perhaps troubles in the family, perhaps um you think it's a generational thing because your parents said something.
10:05
Carine: I mean, whatever, we make up excuses, but then it's a stacking of the small things over time that will make you that will erode your self-confidence, that will make you doubt, that will um make your self-esteem go away.
10:25
Carine: It's it's it's um it's insidious.
10:29
Carine: Yeah, I would say it's like getting a teaspoon of poison every single day.
10:35
Carine: And by the time that you understand that you're uh like you have been intoxicated, you don't have the strength anymore to leave.
10:44
Mary: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
10:46
Mary: And so, you know, an unhealthy relationship is typically two people coming together that that don't perhaps have the best way to cope or communicate.
10:56
Mary: You know, that's something that's fixable if both people are able to say, here's my stuff, here's your stuff, let's work on this.
11:02
Mary: Toxic is more a one-sided someone, like you're saying, has that poison and someone else is ingesting the poison.
11:12
Mary: And I think it's so important to understand several things that you said.
11:17
Mary: First, you're not weak if you end up recognizing you're in this situation.
11:22
Mary: I think there's so much socialization.
11:25
Mary: I talk about this nearly every episode on this podcast, is we're socialized to be nice, to not make waves.
11:32
Mary: And so I think when we first feel that uncertainty, like, wow, that reaction was strong.
11:40
Mary: And like you're saying, we excuse it.
11:42
Mary: Well, maybe he's having a bad day or she's having a bad day.
11:45
Mary: And so I'm sure they didn't mean to, you know, be cruel or to do that thing because we we don't trust our body.
11:54
Mary: You also brought up the fact that this we do know in our body when something isn't okay, but we don't always trust our body because we're told like our mind is the thing to pay attention to.
12:05
Mary: But I think it's that socialization where we see it and we're like, oh, well, I I don't want to be that high maintenance person.
12:12
Mary: I'm not gonna bring it up.
12:13
Mary: I'm just gonna smile and try to make him or her feel better.
12:19
Carine: Exactly.
12:19
Carine: And I think that's something that perhaps more women than men uh have problems with.
12:24
Carine: Is uh I've I know I'm a people pleaser, that doesn't help.
12:29
Carine: I know that I'm a perfectionist, that doesn't help neither.
12:33
Carine: Because whatever you say, whatever you do, it's never gonna be good enough, uh, it's never gonna be what they want.
12:39
Carine: It's so it's um, and at the end of the relationship, up is down and down is up, it's so confusing.
12:46
Carine: You just don't know who you are anymore.
12:48
Carine: And I think when you talk about an unhealthy relationship, even if you if you feel like you say it's two people coming together, and sometimes you don't get along or you don't you can't solve things, but at least you try.
13:00
Carine: To me, that's like it feels almost like a healthy relationship because it's not that one is powerful and the other one is powerless.
13:07
Carine: It's that there's a both people will try to show up with uh the willingness, the willingness to solve something.
13:15
Carine: They will take ownership, they will take responsibility, and they will try to solve things.
13:20
Carine: And perhaps they don't have the the language to solve things, or perhaps they have not been educated, but still they're trying.
13:27
Carine: Yes, even and I think that's a healthy way of trying to to be in a relationship because you try, and perhaps you're not it's not a good fit, but that doesn't mean it's unhealthy, does it?
13:39
Mary: Well, and most both people are showing up.
13:41
Mary: I think when you have a toxic relationship, you could get to a point and say, Hey, why don't we go to therapy?
13:46
Mary: And you're probably gonna be shut down because that other person has no interest in someone getting inside their head.
13:56
Carine: Not at all.
13:57
Carine: Oh, I tried, and he actually said yes, and then after two times he said to me, I'm not joining you in uh in this uh practice anymore because you are not uh cooperative enough.
14:09
Carine: So it's always somebody else's fault.
14:12
Carine: And when uh if you don't know that you know, sometimes we only need guidance to understand, is this okay, is this normal?
14:21
Carine: And and um maybe your listeners will resonate with that because we know we all should be self-validating, we should know ourselves, we should protect our boundaries, but sometimes we have not been modeled that.
14:35
Carine: And um sometimes the only thing we need is guidance.
14:39
Carine: And and I remember when I was in that relationship, when I left, I didn't have role models, I didn't have the language to explain what happened to me.
14:47
Carine: I just didn't know.
14:49
Carine: And sometimes it would be so great if you could turn to somebody and say, This is what I go through, and I it just doesn't feel right.
14:56
Carine: And I had so many people, I reached out to to family and friends, and they just told me that it's oh Karen, um, you're just overreacting.
15:07
Carine: Um, all relationships have uh ups and downs.
15:09
Carine: He's just stressed, you're too emotional, and it just pushed me back into the relationship because nobody knew what was going on.
15:16
Carine: And it makes you visible.
15:19
Mary: Yeah, it makes you doubt yourself, you know, and I and so several things here.
15:23
Mary: The first something you brought up is the love bombing, which is really when you start a relationship and someone is sending you flowers and wanting to be with you all the time.
15:32
Mary: And it feels great, but that's not really love, that's obsession.
15:38
Mary: Um, so I think there's another place to trust your body that, you know, is that, you know, if somebody is that focused, it can feel overwhelming.
15:49
Mary: So if it's a little overwhelming, I think that's a clue.
15:51
Mary: But I also want to go into what you're talking about now, this idea of when you start to realize you're so far from shore by that point.
16:02
Mary: So a lot of times you have invested in the relationship and at the expense of other relationships, or there's been intentionally someone putting you in their boat and rowing you away from the support of the other people, right?
16:18
Mary: So then you get there and you're like, how do I, you know, work my way back because I am now estranged or separated, or people haven't known what was happening.
16:32
Carine: That's a very lonely place to be in.
16:34
Carine: You're talking about the ace, the isolation, and it's also that happens subtle.
16:40
Carine: I remember when I was uh we just met, we were like together a few months, and I would use I would uh drive to my parents.
16:49
Carine: Uh it was one hour and a half uh drive to my parents to just go and see them and support them and see whether they needed anything.
16:56
Carine: I remember coming back from that drive and he he knocked my door because we were living apart, and he said, How was it?
17:04
Carine: I said, It was okay.
17:05
Carine: And he said, Well, it doesn't sound okay.
17:07
Carine: I said, Well, I had a fight with my dad, and and just explained everything.
17:11
Carine: And so my partner at that time he said to me, he turned to me, he said, Um, I don't know, we we don't know each other that long, but I have the feeling that I understand you more than your parents do.
17:21
Carine: And I had exactly the same feeling at that time, and that's what they do.
17:26
Carine: That's isolation.
17:27
Carine: But I didn't see it that as isolation, I said I saw it as being supportive and uh being by my side and trying to help me out, yeah, and it's so subtle, it just moves so subtle into your relationship you that you do not feel it, and then making your way back to uh trying to you I lost my whole network, and the the worst thing of all, when I left that abusive relationship, because I think we should talk about the word abuse as well.
17:58
Carine: I didn't I didn't use it for a very long time because I was ashamed of I didn't know it, and then when I knew it, I was ashamed of using it.
18:07
Carine: But when I left it, I left the relationship, most of my friends turned away.
18:13
Carine: I had nothing, nobody left.
18:15
Carine: I had a handful of friends, and that was it.
18:17
Carine: All the rest didn't believe me because of the smear campaigns that were going on, and I didn't know he was doing that.
18:24
Carine: So there's so many things we don't know about toxic relationships that we should talk about, because then we actually would understand as family and friends what's going on in within the four walls that we call home, or that she she calls home.
18:41
Carine: Yeah.
18:41
Mary: Yeah.
18:42
Mary: Well, and you know, bringing up the idea of shame, we that is typically what an abused person feels when you know it all comes to light, it all comes out.
18:54
Mary: It's that how could I have let this happen?
18:57
Mary: And you know, it's just one of one more way where we shrink.
19:01
Mary: I instead of you know, having that grace, and it sounds like you did not have other people in your life or many that did give you that grace to try to understand what you had experienced.
19:16
Carine: No, and actually, uh in my last exhibition, I had uh an art installation that was called overlooked and seen and had uh like drawn, I drawn uh drew some eyes that they could stick on a big canvas.
19:29
Carine: So I eyes that were actually looking at you, eyes that were closed and then half open.
19:34
Carine: I would ask people if you went through a difficult period in your life, how did you feel?
19:38
Carine: Did you feel seen or overlooked or mixed?
19:42
Carine: And I remember I've put my eyes first and it was closed because no, I had a feeling that nobody saw me.
19:47
Carine: And I and the first lady came in and she I asked her that question, she participated in art installation.
19:53
Carine: She said, I felt seen, and I was so surprised by her reaction.
19:58
Carine: How can you feel be feel how is it possible that somebody feels seen when you go through a difficult situation?
20:04
Carine: Because I had felt seen.
20:06
Carine: And she said, and I felt embraced by my network, by my friends and family.
20:11
Carine: And I looked at her, I go, like, what a gift.
20:14
Carine: And she looked at me in surprise and I said, and I talked about mine.
20:17
Carine: She said, Oh my god, I didn't even know that was possible.
20:21
Carine: So we both learned a lot, and I think that's because we talk about it and we were open about it.
20:26
Carine: But I felt so much shame because I felt responsible for my choice.
20:32
Carine: But you know, I truly believe that the mask was real.
20:36
Carine: Yeah, and it was not.
20:39
Mary: Right.
20:39
Carine: And that's make it makes it makes me feel ashamed, and I should we should not.
20:44
Carine: The shame should really shift sides.
20:47
Carine: I mean, we should not feel ashamed at all.
20:50
Carine: And that's what when you when you understand that it's a system and that's it's um a kind of a pattern that it's being repeated, that it's a playbook they use on you, I could feel the shame go away.
21:01
Carine: And that's what that made me stand up and say, I'm gonna use my voice now.
21:05
Carine: I can't be of meaning to my mom anymore, it's too late.
21:09
Carine: But perhaps somebody's listening and doubts, and I can be of meaning to that person.
21:14
Carine: So, yeah, let's take away the shame around abuse.
21:19
Mary: Yeah, and you know, thinking about the role of the abused person, you know, I think as it starts to dawn on us, if someone is, you use the word people pleaser, if someone is a people pleaser or an enabler, initially we can lend to that illusion of that someone isn't an abuser, right?
21:42
Mary: It sounds like your mom was very good at that.
21:44
Mary: She was very good at covering up what was going on so that even living there, you didn't you didn't realize it, but then you sort of took that role a little bit in your own relationship.
22:00
Carine: Absolutely.
22:00
Carine: I just copied.
22:01
Carine: My mom was a very dulcile woman.
22:03
Carine: She was all in for us.
22:06
Carine: She was there for us and for my dad.
22:07
Carine: And my dad was the most important person in the house.
22:10
Carine: But I think it was I thought really thought it was a generational thing.
22:14
Carine: I thought he was just uh an old-fashioned guy.
22:19
Carine: Trying to uh he was dominant and and a bit controlling.
22:25
Carine: And the more I got older, the more I thought this is like strange.
22:29
Carine: But when you when I talked about my the behavior of my dad to other people, they would say, yes, but that's his generation.
22:35
Carine: I recognize that.
22:36
Carine: So you don't dig into the system, you don't look for answers because people just acknowledge that what you think is is the truth.
22:44
Carine: Yeah.
22:46
Mary: Yeah, and it was really both halves of that relationship were the stereotypical socialized role at that time, the the male and the female.
22:55
Mary: The female is to smooth the road and to smile and to make sure the the household runs well.
23:01
Mary: And so that's all fine and good unless there's abuse.
23:06
Carine: Yes.
23:06
Carine: And there wasn't not that I know.
23:09
Carine: I don't know whether there was physical abuse because I never seen it or heard it.
23:13
Carine: So I think it was only emotional, physical, and certainly also financial.
23:17
Carine: My mom didn't go anywhere without the approval of my dad.
23:21
Carine: And he would give her the money and he would say, it's uh that I didn't I didn't see it.
23:27
Carine: I just didn't see it.
23:28
Carine: It's so invisible.
23:29
Mary: Yes.
23:30
Mary: And I think it's, you know, when we say the word abuse, I think initially most people picture someone with with physical abuse, with physical injuries.
23:40
Mary: But you brought up two good things.
23:42
Mary: One is emotional, which is harder.
23:44
Mary: And I'm gonna use the word control.
23:45
Mary: If you feel controlled, that you don't have your own opinions, you're not allowed to dress like you want to dress, the that control is hallmark abuse.
23:55
Mary: And the other thing that you bring up is financial, which we don't often see.
23:59
Mary: And that is you are totally controlled if you have no access to money except what your partner will allow you to have.
24:10
Carine: Yeah.
24:10
Carine: And you have, I remember when I was living with my ex-partner, uh, that we both had a car, so we moved into my house, and then he said, Why don't we get rid of one car?
24:22
Carine: It's environmentally more friendly if we only have one car, and we only need one car.
24:26
Carine: And I said, No, I want my own freedom.
24:28
Carine: I don't want us to get rid of a car.
24:30
Carine: That there is trying to control you just by suggestion that we should only have one car.
24:40
Carine: And it doesn't feel like that, they just give thousands other reasons why this car should be be sold, and it has nothing.
24:48
Carine: Yeah, it's so um, it's an it's it's a web, it's so difficult to to name everything, and I think it's very really confusing when you're listening to this right now and you have never been in an abusive relationship.
25:03
Carine: It I don't know whether it it resonates because it's so difficult to grasp.
25:08
Carine: And I think when I talk to other survivors, I only have to say one word or one sentence and they start nodding because we all talk about the same things, we all talk about the same system that has been used on us, but it's because of the fact that we don't talk about it that nobody knows that this exists.
25:26
Carine: And I didn't know myself, I had to find it out.
25:29
Carine: I had to listen to podcasts, I had to study again, I studied again when I was 45, and still I didn't I didn't understand that I had been in a toxic relationship.
25:38
Carine: So it took me a long time to actually um understand, fully understand what happened to me 20 years ago.
25:47
Mary: Yeah.
25:48
Mary: Well, and you know, the I think the refrain, the common refrain of people who don't understand is why doesn't she just leave?
25:55
Mary: So I want to talk about that a little bit because obviously the goal would be to extricate yourself from something that is toxic, to go on to have the insights, build your own coping strategies, and move into a healthier life.
26:10
Mary: But leaving, leaving it's not this magic thing where you step out and everything is fine.
26:16
Mary: It's pretty tough.
26:18
Carine: It's really tough.
26:20
Carine: And you know, I left um one of the things about this happening in a toxic relationship is that they will they go they will move really quickly the moment so they may make sure that you trust them very quickly, they will move really quickly.
26:35
Carine: So living together, having a child, marrying, uh, buying a house, investing together, they will move really quickly.
26:42
Carine: And we had a child after four years uh of living together, and I left with a baby of 10 months old because I thought this is not healthy, this is not the surrounding or uh environment I want to bring, I want to um um raise my child, yeah, raise my child, and I decided to to leave.
27:05
Carine: I didn't leave because of myself.
27:07
Carine: Imagine.
27:09
Carine: I left because I wanted to give a brighter future to my son, and it's because you're intoxicated, your brain is hijacked, you don't know who you are anymore.
27:19
Carine: I didn't know who I was anymore when I left that uh that marriage.
27:22
Carine: I just didn't.
27:24
Carine: Uh I didn't trust myself anymore.
27:26
Carine: I was nervous, my nervous system was on all the time.
27:31
Carine: I was just a rack.
27:33
Carine: And I thought I needed to make sure that my son would get a better life, and that's why I left.
27:40
Carine: I didn't leave for myself.
27:42
Carine: So it's really very hard.
27:44
Carine: It's not just why doesn't she leave?
27:46
Carine: I understand that people say that.
27:48
Carine: People never ask me why I didn't leave because they all believed that he he he was the victim.
27:54
Carine: Uh, and I don't know what he said or what the smear campaign was all about, but people turned away from me, so I I was at fault apparently.
28:03
Carine: So it's really difficult to because of the stacking over time, because of the fact that it's um it's it's uh adding up of little small things and the whole system, so the silent treatment.
28:18
Carine: You ask something, they do not reply.
28:20
Carine: You think it's you, perhaps I I misunderstand something, perhaps I I my behavior was not correct.
28:27
Carine: Uh and you start just start doubting yourself so much, you start working on working on axials, and you're getting so tired, and then you have the sleep deprivation that they do as well, and you they keep on talking to you whilst you're so tired that you want to sleep, and it's all the whole uh uh system is so complicated.
28:46
Carine: It looks so complicated, but it's not.
28:48
Carine: It's uh it's uh and uh when you're in it, you're so intoxicated that you don't see anymore that you're in it.
28:56
Carine: So even if people would have noticed that I was in it and would have talked to me, Karen, you're in a difficult situation, perhaps I would not have believed it.
29:05
Carine: Because um you have enough good days to stay and you have enough enough bad days to become sick.
29:15
Carine: And they switch from one side to another that some some when they feel that perhaps you could quit, when they feel that perhaps they're losing their grip on you, when they feel that they don't have you under under their control any longer, they will make sure they will give you some portion of the love bombing again, and then you will start doubting again because we believe in the good of people, we believe in the fact that people might change, they don't.
29:43
Carine: And what I say all the time is that when you start to have the mask on and you believe that is the real them.
29:50
Carine: But when they take the mask off, that's the real person you're talking about.
29:55
Carine: And I couldn't believe it.
29:56
Carine: I just couldn't believe it that the man without the mask was the real human being that I was in in the relation with.
30:05
Carine: And they only start, well, in my case, they only started to he only started to take off his mask fully when we were going through divorce.
30:14
Carine: That was hell, that was really hell, yeah.
30:18
Mary: Yeah, and part of it, I think, is that we have a framework for how we interact with the world.
30:26
Mary: And abusers do things we would never imagine doing to someone else.
30:30
Mary: And so I think it's part of how we talk ourselves out of it initially is like, surely that can't be intentional.
30:37
Mary: Surely there's not a pattern here that he is, you know, building me up just to be able to knock me back down.
30:44
Mary: Like that's that doesn't fit how we treat people.
30:47
Mary: And so I think it can be harder because there's some of the self-doubt.
30:51
Mary: And the other important part that I think maybe people don't understand is literally your amygdala, which is the part of our brain that protects us, it's part of our emotional system.
31:02
Mary: It is so on alert.
31:05
Mary: And, you know, it really does rewire your brain.
31:10
Mary: Like you talk about intoxication.
31:12
Mary: Well, think about if you drink a bottle of wine, you are no longer in control.
31:17
Mary: And it's similar because it is this insidious sort of taking over of your nervous system because you just want it to go away, but your amygdala is saying, Oh, there's danger here, there's danger here.
31:30
Mary: And think about if you are subjected to, let's say, horrible loud music and you're so worked up, and then the person turns it off and you're so thankful to them.
31:42
Mary: You know, it's sort of like what that going back and forth between love bombing and cruelty, it's like, oh, thank goodness my captor has turned this loud music off.
31:53
Mary: He must care about me.
31:54
Mary: And then the music goes back on, right when you're letting your guard down.
31:57
Mary: So it's hard to describe, but literally it rewires your brain.
32:02
Carine: Oh, I think that's such a good description.
32:04
Carine: I could feel it in my body.
32:06
Carine: I could feel it in my body, how you describe it, because that's actually how it goes.
32:10
Carine: And when they criticize you, or when they attack you, when they uh come up with excuses, with lack of accountability, or with whatever, you think that's not the real them.
32:23
Carine: You because you can't believe it, it's it's too nasty to believe.
32:29
Carine: It's just um, and it's because the difference between the one the one who showed up at the beginning and the one who shows up now is so big that you just can't wrap your head around it.
32:43
Carine: You just can't.
32:44
Carine: And that's why when I left that relationship, I was burdened with so many whys I couldn't answer.
32:49
Carine: And I've been looking for answers for two decades because I just couldn't understand what happened to me.
32:56
Carine: I felt it was a confusing relationship, it was a complex relationship, I just couldn't understand what happened to me.
33:03
Carine: And it's only when when you see all these ingredients that people use on you uh that you understand uh what happened, and that you can feel the sense of freedom again.
33:14
Carine: And oh, it wasn't me.
33:16
Carine: It wasn't my fault.
33:19
Carine: It's some it they it's they're just so different person.
33:23
Carine: There's a different personality.
33:25
Carine: There's this there's something wrong with them, and um, but they show up in a different way at the beginning, and that's so confusing.
33:34
Carine: And I I felt when I uh first met my ex-partner, um my ex-husband, when I first met him, it felt like he had a map of me.
33:49
Carine: He could actually understand uh my weaknesses, my vulnerabilities.
33:56
Carine: He had a map of all that, and he could uh push the buttons at his liking.
34:02
Carine: That's how it felt.
34:04
Carine: And when I met him, I he only gave the positive feedback.
34:08
Carine: He knew my dreams, my desires, what I liked, what I didn't like, what gave me energy, and he would only give positive feedback.
34:14
Carine: And the more we were moving into the relationship, the more he started to use the same map to now uh push all my vulnerabilities to provoke me to get me out of balance.
34:27
Carine: And it's like if you think about it, it's sickening that somebody would do that to you, and you just can't believe it because you would never do something like that to somebody you love, right?
34:39
Carine: That you started like in a loving relationship, but it's the same at work, it's the same with families, it's the same with friends.
34:47
Carine: You would never believe that somebody would do something like that to you.
34:52
Mary: Yeah.
34:52
Mary: Yeah, and it happened to me in my career, and that's you know, even as a therapist, it took me, my body knew what was going on, my my brain, my brain tried to say, Well, surely you're imagining this.
35:04
Mary: Surely she would not intentionally create lies.
35:08
Mary: And so, yeah, it can happen anywhere.
35:10
Mary: And you know, the uh one of the parts of this that makes me feel sad is that you had that reaction from people that you needed support from.
35:20
Mary: And so, you know, interestingly, when I had a relationship, and you know, it's the one I alluded to, it I it was a little abusive.
35:28
Mary: I'm gonna say it wasn't like tragically abusive because it didn't last long enough, but it was after it ended that I had people the closest to me say, Yeah, I never really thought that that was right.
35:41
Mary: And I was like, why wouldn't you say it while it was happening?
35:45
Mary: But I want to talk a little bit about how someone can be supportive.
35:50
Mary: Because I think there are certain family members and friends, they see what's happening.
35:55
Mary: And initially we might be like, no, no, no, it's fine, it's fine.
35:59
Mary: And then when it's not, we can we cannot always be sure how to make our way back to say, by the way, you were right.
36:08
Mary: So, as someone who might be a friend or a family member that sees things happening or that someone comes to for support, what can you suggest that can help them?
36:21
Carine: Oh, I would say stay in contact, whatever happens, because you they will retreat from the from the relation you have with them, from the friendships or from being uh close to the family, of just make sure that you stay in contact with that person because um it's not their fault that they're retreating.
36:41
Carine: And uh I would also say give them a hint.
36:45
Carine: Say um if you see something changing in their behavior, in the way they look, the the way they are dressed, just note that and say, hey, I see that you're dressed in a different way.
36:55
Carine: And and uh it makes me wonder, just know that I'm here.
37:00
Carine: You have my phone number, you can phone whatever.
37:02
Carine: Just note what happened what's happening and give back to them.
37:05
Carine: Never give advice because I think if you give advice, then you do the same as uh the toxic person because they get advice and suggestions and things to do differently all the time.
37:18
Carine: So if you do that as well, you'll end up in in the fight between the abuser and you.
37:23
Carine: Don't do that, just be present and make sure that they know they can they can count on you.
37:28
Carine: Just say I'm here whenever, whenever I'm here, you can always ring me.
37:33
Carine: I'm here for you.
37:34
Carine: And if they ring, make sure that you're there because yeah.
37:38
Carine: Yeah, I would have loved somebody to just say, Karen, I'm here for you.
37:42
Carine: Karina, I'm I'm I'm I'm I see what you're going through.
37:46
Carine: I mean, when I the moment I was pregnant, everything went really, really bad.
37:51
Carine: It just switched from one side from one day to another.
37:55
Carine: It was really, really bad.
37:56
Carine: And before it was only words, and then it started to be abusive.
38:00
Carine: So I can count it on one hand.
38:02
Carine: So I would still say it was not not abusive, but I have there have been some physical abuse and throwing you uh around stuff as well.
38:10
Carine: But just having somebody who would have said to me, Corinne, if there's something, I see that you're losing weight, I see that you're losing your sparkler, sparkle in your eyes, I see that you're not as energetic and positive as you used to be.
38:27
Carine: Um, I'm here for you.
38:29
Carine: You can ring me.
38:30
Carine: I would have loved that.
38:32
Mary: Yeah, I'm sure.
38:34
Mary: I wish you had had that.
38:35
Mary: And you know the the one thing you you sort of alluded to and touched on real quickly there is that it goes in one direction.
38:44
Mary: Abuse escalates.
38:46
Mary: It's not it, you know, if you look at it that over time, as you said, it will be sort of this cycle, you know, love bombing and cruelty and back and forth.
38:55
Mary: But if you look at the overall trend, it gets worse.
38:59
Mary: And, you know, so I think that part is important.
39:03
Mary: And also if you are someone on the outside and you're seeing these changes, it's not personal.
39:10
Mary: If the friendship, you know, does not, if it wanes, it's not, they're not rejecting you, they're being rewired.
39:20
Mary: And I think you make a really good point is come from a place of love and sort of it's almost like standing to the side and waiting.
39:27
Mary: Like, you know, if if they need me in the future, I'm gonna be here right now.
39:31
Mary: I wish I could change it, but I can't, and it's not about you.
39:35
Mary: So I think, yeah, being that person that is there for the support when that person is ready is just showing that that grace and compassion.
39:45
Carine: Oh, I think so.
39:46
Carine: It's so valuable that you say that.
39:48
Carine: Yes, don't take it personal.
39:50
Carine: Uh, your friend doesn't, your friend still wants to go for coffee, your friend still wants to go to the party, but she just can't.
39:58
Carine: Yeah, it's just not possible.
40:00
Carine: She knows if she does that, she will have troubles at home.
40:03
Carine: She will have an endless conversation about that she doesn't love him enough or she doesn't uh support him enough or whatever.
40:10
Carine: So she's choosing for to have um not to have the difficult conversations at home, and that's why she's choosing her partner and not you at this moment in time.
40:21
Carine: It will change.
40:22
Carine: And something else you say that is really, really important.
40:26
Carine: I always believe that if somebody hits once, they will hit again.
40:31
Carine: And I remember that I was one year and a half into the relationship.
40:36
Carine: We were always having these really pleasant conversations around the coffee table.
40:40
Carine: And I remember one Saturday afternoon I was sitting at that table and he suddenly got up and just smacked me in the face, and I didn't know what was happening.
40:50
Carine: And I got up and I just said, For me, this is a reason for divorce, and I just took the dog and went for a walk.
40:57
Carine: And then I get go came back, and then he used all kinds of tactics.
41:02
Carine: I'm not gonna get into that, but I just thought I'm gonna just see and watch what's going on.
41:09
Carine: And as the days go by, we all we ended up in a really, really wonderful and really quiet phase of the relationship, and it went on and on for weeks, for months.
41:22
Carine: How long would you wait before you start to take off so to lower your harness again?
41:28
Carine: So it took me more than a year to lower my harness again, and then I did because I thought, okay, it's done.
41:34
Carine: This is it has been one year of only wonderful um communications, love, and support again.
41:43
Carine: So we're good.
41:44
Carine: It was like one time off.
41:46
Carine: And as I lowered my harness, he he he the next step was let's have a baby together, and I said yes, and that's how it goes.
41:56
Carine: They just they uh it's never one-time hit.
42:02
Carine: So the moment I was pregnant, everything started again and it became worse.
42:07
Carine: So the physical uh abuse started right there.
42:13
Carine: And so, to people, if you really believe that one hit is uh not enough to leave, it is hitting is crossing a boundary which is really, really uh not you should not tolerate at all.
42:29
Carine: I should have left there.
42:33
Mary: Yeah, and I that's it is one of those things again where you walked away and when you came back, the behavior changed.
42:41
Mary: So it's not intentional.
42:43
Mary: Let me just lull you back into this sense of everything's okay again.
42:49
Mary: And yeah, it's that's a great example of why it is so insidious.
42:55
Mary: So, as with so many of my guests, you took your experience and you leveraged it to create something to help other people.
43:03
Mary: So, tell us a little about both your art and your book.
43:08
Carine: Uh, this is my art has been my safe space all along, and this is so wonderful to feel that in my art studio I can just be who I am and just like rumble with all the things that come my way.
43:22
Carine: So, my art is my uh way to express my journey from being a survivor to becoming an activist for change.
43:29
Carine: Now I'm speaking up about it.
43:31
Carine: So I started speaking about speaking up about my experience after my mom uh died in 2023, and I started to dive into the matter more, took about um took my first went into depression because it was really uh I didn't understand what was happening and what was coming my way.
43:52
Carine: But I'll after the depression, I so I've I've uh I have a therapist that supported me uh before.
43:59
Carine: And I took uh contact with her again, and then after the depression, I started to dive into the metamore again and again, and then I decided to write the book.
44:09
Carine: And um, so it's because of the fact that I understand that it's a pattern, because of the fact that I understand it's like love bombing, isolation, gaslighting, silent remote, the whole stuff.
44:22
Carine: Uh, I could feel that the shame is going away, and this is what I want all victims and survivors of abuse feel that they should not be ashamed.
44:34
Carine: And so I would invite everybody who's actually um unsure, like perhaps you listen to this and it something resonated with you, educate yourself, go and talk about it with somebody who has knowledge, a therapist who has knowledge with uh who is strongly informed and who has knowledge about narcissistic abuse.
44:56
Carine: Uh, because um, that's one of the things that I want to start right now, is also I want to talk about my experience uh to experts in the field that have never experienced uh emotional abuse because it's something that is so easily overlooked.
45:14
Carine: I see so many people saying it's a conflict between two parents.
45:18
Carine: It's not a conflict, it's abuse, it's a difference in power.
45:21
Carine: So I want to talk about that as well.
45:23
Carine: But if you're doubting, just educate yourself.
45:26
Carine: Yeah.
45:27
Mary: What is that name of your book, Corin?
45:29
Carine: Yeah, my the name of the book.
45:31
Carine: Yeah, I'm just so into the topic that I'm like, oh my book is yeah, educate yourself, get hold of my book.
45:38
Carine: The the title is Is It Me, The Hidden System Behind Toxic Relationships.
45:42
Carine: And people say that it's an easy read, it's 130 pages, but it's like I talk about my experience, how it started, how it evolved, how it suddenly turned around into something really nasty, how I left and how I rebuilt myself, what I did actually to heal.
45:58
Carine: And healing is not a 28-day program.
46:01
Carine: No, I mean it takes a while.
46:03
Carine: So I think it's really um good to understand that as well, that it's something that has such a huge impact on your body.
46:10
Carine: That's why I want to prevent, especially the new generation of beautiful girls and women, too, uh, girls and men um boys to end up in a toxic relationship.
46:21
Carine: If I can prevent that, oh, that would be so great because it's the impact is huge.
46:27
Carine: So educate yourself, read the book, share it with friends, talk about it.
46:32
Carine: Uh, let's educate ourselves more.
46:35
Carine: And with the art, I do the same.
46:37
Carine: I just I have exhibitions and I talk about so I see people can see the paintings and feel how it feels to be to walk the healing journey.
46:48
Carine: Because I I'm a person known for my joy and my positivity, and it I express that through my paintings as well.
46:55
Carine: But I also want to raise awareness, and that I most of the times do through the art installations that can uh be used when I talk, when I give talks, and people can actually experience how it feels to be in a toxic relationship.
47:10
Carine: Yeah.
47:11
Mary: Yeah, that's awesome.
47:12
Mary: So tell us your website, and then I will make sure it's part of the show notes.
47:16
Carine: Okay.
47:17
Carine: Website is my name, Corinvanhee.com.
47:21
Carine: So you can find information on my talks, on the book, and on the art on my website.
47:26
Mary: Yeah, you have a very uh easily navigable website so you can find all the things you want.
47:31
Mary: And Corinne this has been a really important and really in-depth conversation, and I so appreciate you being here and sharing your experience.
47:40
Carine: Well, thank you for having me.
47:41
Carine: And I what I liked so much about this conversation is that you um I'm not an English speaker, as you can tell.
47:48
Carine: And sometimes I have to I have difficulties expressing really how it feels, but you reframe it so well that I'm I have been nodding all along about yes, this is exactly what I mean.
48:01
Carine: So it was so helpful just that you reframe it and you stress certain things and you uh uh highlight certain things to the audience.
48:10
Carine: It has been an amazing conversation.
48:12
Carine: I loved it every second.
48:15
Mary: Thank you for having me.
48:16
Mary: You're welcome.
48:17
Mary: You're welcome.
48:18
Mary: It's truly been my pleasure, and I want to thank everyone for listening.
48:21
Mary: Please forward this episode to someone you know who needs to hear it.
48:25
Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.