Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 542: Trump, Biden, and Wildlife: How Elections Shape Conservation

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Ep. 542: Trump, Biden, and Wildlife: How Elections Shape Conservation · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: predict anything. The meat Eater Podcast is brought to you
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,
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  Speaker 1: or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I t E dot com. Everybody's damn near your tax
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: day and we're gonna do There's two things that are
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: gonna happen on this episode. We're gonna get into two
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: things you never want to bring up to anybody. We're
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: gonna talk about finances, and we're gonna talk about politics.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: But we're gonna start with we're gonna talk about politics,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: kind of politics and the intersection of politics and conservation
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: with Becky Humphries, who's been on the show a couple
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: times before, and we're gonna we're gonna dig in with her.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: She's here in the studio, but joining us from not
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: in the studio is Susie Orman, and she just was
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: saying that we need to change start a podcast called
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: money Eater and We wanted to catch up with her
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. One because it's tax day
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: and we want to get some financial advice. And two
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: because there's some things I became aware of now. If
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: you're wondering, or if you you know, you've been out
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: of touch, or you're a little youngster.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Susie Orman is an American financial advisor, author of How
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Many Books, A Lot of Books?
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Ten ten ten, number one New York Times bestseller, and
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: I am just not a financial advisor, sir. I am
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: a financial icon of America. And you're young and you
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: don't know about me. That's why you're financially screwed.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, if you don't, yeah, if you don't have a
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: big old boat, If you don't have a big old
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: boat yet, it's because you haven't been listening to Susie.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: So in nineteen eighty seven, she founded the Susie Ormand
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Financial Group, and her work as a financial advisor gained
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: notability notoriety with Susie Orman Show, which ran on CNBC
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: and for thirteen years, and does.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: A podcast, I'll tell You My Brief History, which is
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: two time Emmy Award winner, twice named by Time magazine
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: as one hundred most influential person in the world. Recently
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: just named as one of the fifty over fifty women
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: who have changed this world.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And I could go on and on, but who cares.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: About them over fifty?
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: No, it's true.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: I actually said, well, it took you so long because
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I'm mopped to be seventy three?
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: Are you really what?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look it up, you google it.
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  Speaker 5: Why this is part of your research?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Well, no, I might have known. I might have read
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: that and then thought that's impossible because she looks too great.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: But that's why it happens when you have a lot
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: of money. I haven't got any work done, but that's
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: besides the point as well.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Now, okay, you might be wondering, like, well, how why
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: this show? Because I found now I've known once upon
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a time Susan and I for a brief period overlap
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: with our book publishers. But she's the reason she's on
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: the show right now is she's a mega fisherman, like
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I got photos here of her with a stack of
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: wah who manages to live in Bahamas, which I need
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: to ask how that goes down? And when I first
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: reached out to her about coming on the show, I
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: see a picture of her where she's standing next to
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: a and electric reel, like a deep drop reel. Now,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: normally if you meet, like you know, when you're talking
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: to a famous person in a fish and you get
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: their fishing picture, you're gonna get a picture of them
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: holding a fly rod with a rainbow trout in big
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: sky Montana, with a guide holding the net, or.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: It's a marlin.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But that was like old that she's standing with
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: a deep drop rig, and I was like, this is
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: a legit fisher person. Have you always fished?
• 4:15
  Speaker 6: No?
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  Speaker 3: So when I was sixty five, many years ago now,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I had decided what would Susie Orman be if she
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: didn't have the number one show on CNBC for thirteen
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: years or how many of her years it was. If
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: she didn't have you know, standing ovations of fifty thousand
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: people at a time, if she didn't have this, What
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: would I be if all of that went away? So
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: one day I decided to sell five homes, quit my show,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: stop writing for Oprah, stop being on TV BAM, and
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: we got a boat. And then we started to go
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: all around on the boat and our captain of the
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: boat because the insurance company made sure that I had
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: a captain. They wouldn't let me captain of myself I
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: could have, which did not go well with me, but
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: I didn't have a choice. Was an avid fisherman, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: so he would sit on the dock with us and
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: we'd have these little fishes, and that's all he thought
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: these two women could do. So finally we fired him.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: We got him out of there right. I started to
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: take over everything myself, and little by little we had
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: moved to the Bahamas, this little tiny island where we
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: would watch everybody bring in these big fish. We didn't
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: know what they were because we wanted to also filley
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: our fish ourselves. We were like, we are not going
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: to be women who the help does this? The help
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: does that. We're going to do it ourselves. We're going
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: to fish, we're gonna captain our boat, we're going to
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: clean our boat, and we're gonna, you know, clean our fish.
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  Speaker 2: And little by little we would.
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  Speaker 3: Be asking questions like how do you catch a wahoo?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: What's a wahoo?
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  Speaker 3: And before you know it, we got the equipment and
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: we went out and we would try, and before you
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: know it, we started to catch And at first we
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: didn't know the difference between a barracuda and a wahoo,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: so we'd have to bring the fish in and ask
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: somebody on the island is this.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: A barracuda or is this a wahoo?
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: And little by little we got it down really well,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: and it was I think it was just a few
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: years ago, maybe two thousand and eighteen, not whatever it was,
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: but a few years ago there was a wahoo contest
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: on the island and there were nine boats that went out,
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: huge fishing vessels with captains and all these lines. And
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: we had our little, you know, thirty two foot Boston
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: wayler were just two poles.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: That was it, the two.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: LPs, and we won not only the contest, but we
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: won the largest fish as well. Oh and now all
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: the men were and who had been wahooing and everything
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: for years, we became their targeters if they wanted to
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: catch us.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: They never quite have, but we've.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Now I'm no longer known as the money Lady, which
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: was my nickname. We're now known on the island KT
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: and myself as the fishing girls. And when we go out,
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: you see the boats start to follow us because they
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: want to know where are we going, what are we doing?
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: And things like like the birds, Yeah right, they're watching
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: for us. Or we'll be somewhere and they'll come up
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: just to kind of say hi, and I know they're
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: marking my spot. So I'm always like, really, you have
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: to pretend you want my numbers, you can have it.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: You're still not going to catch here. I love them,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: I love it.
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  Speaker 3: Right right, But anyway, and that's how it started, little
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  Speaker 3: by little. Now I have a massive lure collection, a
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: massive rod in real collection, and we use them all
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: the time.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: How many reason are you good at cleaning fish?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually KT that cleans them, right, because that's
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  Speaker 3: what she wanted to do. I didn't care one way
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: or the other, to tell you the truth. She is
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  Speaker 3: magnificent at it. She does like cleans. You hold up
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  Speaker 3: the thing and you.
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  Speaker 2: Could see through it. She's fabulous at.
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  Speaker 3: It, right, and she's and then we cry back it
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: and then we also share it with all the other
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: people on the island, the islanders that work there.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Oh excellent, Now I got a question for you. You
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: mentioned getting up to a position where you got a
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: nice boat. Now, one of our colleagues Chester, we used
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: call him Chester the Investor. His plan to get a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: walleye boat was to throw in on bitcoin.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good, I hope he did.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Well. He did, and he got out a couple of
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Right, there's still a time for him to get in
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: a little bit now because on April twentieth there will
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: be a halving a bigcoin, so we should see it
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: if the technical stay the same, for bitcoin to probably
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: go up into the eighty thousand or so area. Obviously
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: it's in the seventy thousand area now. It might be
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: a little bit expensive to get in for a lot,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: but he can always buy the etf I bit ib
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: it and make some money, not what he would have
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: made if he had gone in when it was at
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: its loan, not that long ago, at twenty thousand dollars
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: a bitcoin.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I make sure he tunes in. Yeah, how do
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: you what's your take if someone how do you advise
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: someone like Karn had found a segment where a guy
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: was trying to figure out if he could justify the
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: purchase of a twenty thousand dollars fishing boat. When it
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: comes to fishing boats, how do you instruct people to
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: think about what's too much?
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he should go on. I can't I afford it
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: segment on the Women in Money podcast because it's the
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: hand of every podcast we have that And I'll tell him,
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: first of all, there is nothing that it's more expensive,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: and I don't care what size it is than a boat.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Your engines are either breaking. Everything on a boat today
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: has a three year lifespan.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: That is it.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: Your batteries will go, your your switches will go, your
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: everything will go. And so it's hard to look at
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: a boat with something not breaking on it as you're
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: looking at it. So it's not can you afford to
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: buy a boat? Can you afford the upkeep on the boat?
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Can you afford the insurance on the boat? Can you
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: afford the gasoline on the boat to really do things?
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: Because gasoline now is far more expensive than.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: It was years ago. So where you're going to house
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: the boat?
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Are you living like in Florida or someplace that a
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: hurricane could get the boat?
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: So there's all these things that go into it.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: However, bottom line, you better have at least an eight
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: to twelve month emergency fund of what it would cost
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: you to live and pay your must pay expenses, your
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: mortgage or your rent, you're in, whatever it is, so
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: that if you got sick, you were in an accident,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: you got laid off, you would be able to pay
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: those for eight months. You better not have any credit
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: card debt whatsoever.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: You better be fully.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Funding your retirement accounts to the max. You better be
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: really so good when it comes to money. And then
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: if you have that, you already bought a home, whatever
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: it is, you can have a boat.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Good luck, man. I don't know if there's a lot
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: of boat owners list. It's always a good idea to
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: roll the dice on a big boat, because you never.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Know what's funny.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: You guys, We've had a thirty two foot boat now
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: for since twenty sixteen. We are going on eight years
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: with the same boat. The men on the island, and
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: of course they would. They think bigger is better, all right.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: So they have to go from two engines to three
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: engines to four engines. They have to go from a
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: three hundred to a four point fifty to a six hundred.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: They're nuts. If one of them gets a.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Bigger boat, the others all get a bigger boat. I
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: have never seen anything like it. And then they say
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: to me, why do you keep the same boat?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: What is wrong with you?
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: One reason I keep the same boat is one of
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: the reasons that I think that we are so successful
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: in fishing, especially catching wahoo. Is the wahoo, in my opinion,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: like the wash off the engines of our boat, our engines.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: And you get to stay out of what we call
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: a boat measuring contest, right.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: But you know, I also just love beating them in
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: a smaller boat anyway, So what's the difference?
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: Well, that brings up a great point though, like when
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: you go to in vest in something recreationally, do you
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: measure in the mental benefit of being able to go
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: do something you love? Is that a factor?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Yes? And no?
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: It depends, Like obviously for somebody like me. I'm a
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: seriously wealthy woman, and if I wasn't, I shouldn't be
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: who I am.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: To this day.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: So I don't measure bigger necessarily being what can I
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: cannot do. I like to buy exactly what I need,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: not what I can afford, because I can afford more
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: than what I need. I don't need more than a
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: thirty two foot boat, I don't, you know. It's just
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: me and Kate. It's what I need it for. So
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: just because I can afford it doesn't mean that I
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: want to buy it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: You used to be down. You used to advise people
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: that eating dinner out was a real financial.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Drain, such a drain it was.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: Actually in two thousand and nine, I came out with
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: a book called the two thousand and nine Action Plan
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: because the economy was a mess. I was on the
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Oprah Winfrey Show with it. We actually gave it away
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: for free, millions of copies we gave away for free.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: But there were a few things that I asked everybody
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: in there to do, and that was to stop eating
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: out for at least six months. I thought the restaurant
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: industry was going to explode. They could not believe that
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: I said that. However, there was a white paper done
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: from Mint, which was a finance app and the number
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: one debt that people had when they had a lot
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: of credit card debt, the number one thing they actually
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: spent money on to be in debt was eating out.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: So that's when that started with me. For me myself, sure,
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: I'll ead out if it's a business thing or we're
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: away and I don't have whatever. But even when we travel,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: it's very funny. Maybe we'll go somewhere to do a
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: speaking engagement and we go on a private plane. Okay,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: And now we bring our food with us and we
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: check into the hotel, and even though the sponsor will
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: pay for our food, we cook in our hotel room.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So we have a little hot plate. We do this
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: so I.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: Personally don't enjoy eating out at a restaurant just to
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: go out and eat out only because I just I
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: don't know.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I think the food's better at home and healthier.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Well, you don't even have to use a hot plate.
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: If you got wahoo with you all the time.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well we bring that as well because we love wahushashimi.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so a lot.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: But if you're there for a long time, because sometimes
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: you're a place for a while, then we had a
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: little hot plate. We had a little you know, fry pan,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: a little this in a that, and we go to
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: the grocery store if we roun on.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: A food and bring it.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: So it was always people would always laugh at us as.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: They would see us checking into a hotel.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Susie, I saw a photo where it looks like you
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I might be looking at it wrong, but I feel
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: like there's a photo where you're sitting there with a
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: rockfish with a link cod that looks like it came
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: up with like you caught the rockfish, but landed a
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: link caught and a rockfish.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So there we are because every year we also
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: like to eat salmon, so we usually go to either
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: Alaska or British.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Columbia to catch our own salmon.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: Great, and so there we were and I was fishing,
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: and I was actually fishing. I didn't even you know,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: we had caught our quota of salmon and halib it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: So I was just kind of fishing and I caught
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: something and I'm bringing it up, and I'm like saying
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: to kt KT this is I don't know what I
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: got here, but I don't think this is just a rockfish,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: because we wanted a rockfish in order to make tacos
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: out of it. And all of a sudden, I bring
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: it up and it's a link. God that bid it
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: would not let go, and so we caught both and
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: we bought growth homes.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, give us a couple, give people a couple we'll
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: let you go after this, but give people a couple
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: tips on how they should handle their tax refunds. I'm guessing.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing that you don't advise people to go with
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the play where you get the refund later as good
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: as that field.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Right, when interest rates were at zero percent and there
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: was nobody was making any money on CDs or money
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: market accounts or anything, then I didn't have a problem
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: with people getting a refund because they really weren't losing
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: any money that way, truthfully.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: However, now that.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: Interest rates in money market funds and this will change,
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: are at about four and a half or five percent,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: or there's places that you can put money that are
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: safe and down and get a high interest rate. Who
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: wants to give the government an interest free loan over
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: a year's period of time of about five percent?
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: You have to be out of your mind. So you
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: would be far better.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Off now getting no refund, paying what you need to
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: pay and not paying over it. So just come out
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: so it's a zero, and in the long run you're
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: actually making more money. So that's how you make more
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: out of less, to tell you the truth. So it's
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: less of a refund, but in the long run, that
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: extra money.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: That they're keeping, you would just be able to take.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: That money and put it in an account for yourself,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: maybe buy some bitcoin with it.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Just joking, all.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Right, Susie Orman, thank you so much for coming on.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Good look on your next fission trip. I really appreciate
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: you joining us. And that's gonna get everybody really pepped
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: up and ready to do their taxes.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: All right, talk to you.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: All right? Oh you know what's funny? So Becky, we're
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: gonna how you doing.
• 19:09
  Speaker 7: I'm good.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Did you learn anything there?
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: No, I don't own a big boat. I don't just
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: little boats, and and I try and balance my taxes
• 19:26
  Speaker 7: so it comes out even at the end of the year.
• 19:28
  Speaker 7: But I do have advice for people that do get
• 19:30
  Speaker 7: a refund and they need to donate it to conservation.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Oh there you go, yep.
• 19:36
  Speaker 7: And Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership would be a great place
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: to put it too.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: That's excellent. We're going to talk about that a whole bunch,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: but I gotta run. I'm going to run a couple
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: of Michigan things by it, and an a neighboring thing
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: and a neighboring thing from a neighboring thing from Wisconsin.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Handful things we're gonna talk about. But just a funny
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: letter that came in so Pat Dirk, and it comes
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: on the show a lot the last Outdoor columnist. He
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: wrote a newspaper column last week. This is a while ago.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Now I'm looking at an old line. But uh, Dirkin
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: wrote a piece about to continued decline in Wisconsin's deer
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: hunting population, meaning the number of people buying deer licenses
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: in Wisconsin is going down, down, down. You might be sitting, well,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: why isn't my why aren't my permissions going up up up?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Which is a very long, complicated story, but those things
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: do not walk in tandem. Anyways, he gets a letter
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: from a guy who is of my favorite letters. And
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: the reason I like this letter so much is just
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: so happens that I'm leaving in two days to participate
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: in Wisconsin's youth turkey season. But a guy writes in,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Who's who write? In response to Dirkin's column, writes in,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: and it's signed Dave Michigan pissed hunter. He goes on
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: to say, though, Wisconsin, just like Michigan, has the same problem.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: And I'll tell you what from a guy that has
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: hunted all his life. When you turn over a gun
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: to a kid and they're allowed to shoot any bucks
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: that they want, and I've been hunting for the past
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: forty years, and I have to settle for what's left over.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: And you wonder why people are quitting. You take all
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the hunt away before the season gets to the big
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: hunt of the big opening day, most of the big
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: bucks are already gone. You have so many hunts, kids,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: special hunts, ex bo regular bow. The regular opening day
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: big hunt is a big flop. Kid hunts and they
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: early hunts and stuff. Take the big bucks before the
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: day gets here, and you might think the big day
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: is just about the meat, and it's not. It's the racks.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Michigan prove that with given dough tags twelve total, but
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: at a cost, and hunters let them walk, want more
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: hunter cut the bull crap. Give the big bucks back
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: to the opening day big hunts. You might start to
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: see some other people come back, if it might already
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: be too late.
• 22:09
  Speaker 8: Dave, that is one impassioned.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: That is one.
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: I assume you read it as it was punctuated.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I tried to pat was taken to be a great
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: T shirt. I have this T shirt of the guy
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: that wrote in Yeah, the guy that wrote in the
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: story about the just some unseemly behavior he was seeing
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: among turkeys in his neighborhood, and I think that that
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: might be a great T shirt. You've met Dave.
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: I'm sure I've met Dave all through your career through
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: there are more than one Dave in Michigan family.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I'll translate that. I'll translate that and be that they've
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: done so much do I need to translate it?
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Now you got the archery season, and you got the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: crossbow season, and you got the youth. See really the kids.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: And by the time it comes down to opening day
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in Michigan November fifteenth, the Big Hunt, I like he
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: calls it the big Big Hunt.
• 23:24
  Speaker 8: Ye.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: By the time the Big Hunt starts opening day of
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: General Firearm, the kids have killed off all the big bucks.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: So if you're trying to wonder what happened all the hunters,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: that's it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: By providing special experiences for everyone, you may be diluting
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: a singular experience that used to be for everybody. That
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: was that saying, he who is a friend to all
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: his friend to mine.
• 23:52
  Speaker 7: Oh and our memory gets a little cloudy too. Yeah,
• 23:56
  Speaker 7: you know, I have a deer on the wall of
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: one of the bedrooms in my home that my dad's
• 24:02
  Speaker 7: first buck my dad shot in Michigan and it was
• 24:05
  Speaker 7: a huge buck by his standards, it was a nine
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: point about this big, you know, and the and the
• 24:13
  Speaker 7: success rate back at that time when he shot that
• 24:15
  Speaker 7: for firearm deer hunting in Michigan is about it was
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: below thirty percent for the entire deer season. You know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: Michigan has been over forty percent for quite a while
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: now for firearm hunters in terms of success. So and
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: our deer heard. You know, the antler size has also
• 24:35
  Speaker 7: gone up. But you know, the majority of bucks out there,
• 24:40
  Speaker 7: you guys know this, or young bucks. I mean, we
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: exploit deer pretty heavily in this country, especially in the
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: Midwest where you have an open entry system, so people
• 24:53
  Speaker 7: take a lot of deer, there's no doubt about it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 7: But the majority of your deer are those younger deer.
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: And I think sometimes our memory gets a little feaded
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: on the glory years and what it looks like, not
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: that that happened to Dave or anything. But you know,
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: the other part of it is we are losing more
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: and more hunters as a percentage of the population. And
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: you guys know this, and you know it threatens our
• 25:18
  Speaker 7: our acceptance out there. It threatens our clout as in
• 25:24
  Speaker 7: politics and voting and regulations, and quite frankly, I you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: I'm more than willing to give up that big buck
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: for a youngster. You know, by the time you get
• 25:36
  Speaker 7: to Dave's age, hopefully he's taken a few nice bucks.
• 25:41
  Speaker 7: I don't know if Dave has either, but you know,
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: hopefully you have and you've had that opportunity. But it
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: is about maximizing opportunity out there for a lot of folks.
• 25:52
  Speaker 7: And Michigan during those glory years, Michigan had over a
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: million hunters. They're down under a half million now what.
• 26:03
  Speaker 7: And so with that, your you know, your competition out
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: on the landscape overall is down from what it had been.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Think greater fragmentation of the landscape right which is.
• 26:15
  Speaker 7: Yeah, a greater fragmentation we used to see in Michigan.
• 26:18
  Speaker 7: Michigan carried most of their deer herd in the Upper
• 26:22
  Speaker 7: Peninsula and the northern Lower Peninsula and everybody had their
• 26:25
  Speaker 7: little hunting camps and the rest of it. Now the
• 26:28
  Speaker 7: majority we kill more deer in southern Michigan than the
• 26:31
  Speaker 7: up and Northern Michigan combined. It's just you know, we've
• 26:35
  Speaker 7: seen this, you know, and not only Michigan. You see
• 26:37
  Speaker 7: a lot of deer down in Indiana, Illinois. The deer population,
• 26:42
  Speaker 7: quite frankly, is much higher than it had been fifty
• 26:45
  Speaker 7: years ago.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Beg, you adn't do a good job. I introduce you. Yep,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do that right now. Becky Humphreys is a
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: long time biole. Just started her career at the US
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Service, then worked her way up through
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: the Michigan DNR too, became the director the Michigan Department
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of Natural Resources, spent time at Ducks Unlimited, ran National
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Ran an NWTF as the CEO for how many years?
• 27:13
  Speaker 7: CEO for five years?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: So five years heading the National Wild Turkey Federation, and
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: then right now and I owe you big thanks on
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: this has stepped in as the interim CEO of the
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and there's a permanent search underway,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: but you, very graciously, at very short notice, came on
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: board to run the organization during the interim. So oh,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: your huge thanks there.
• 27:42
  Speaker 7: Well, thank you. It's a great organization. As you know,
• 27:46
  Speaker 7: we both sit on the board and you know when
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: we lost our CEO and pretty you know, short order
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: last last winter. It's one of those organizations you don't
• 27:56
  Speaker 7: want to see flounder. You want them to have a
• 27:58
  Speaker 7: great CEO and you want to to have great leadership.
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: So it was an honor to be asked and ain't
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: quite Frankly, I was feeling retirement pretty much. I'm gonna
• 28:10
  Speaker 7: try again, Try try.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: You'll you'll get to retire again. The last last call
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: on Live tour tickets. So the live tour starts next week.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: You're listening to this right around tax Day. The live
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: tour starts on on the twenty third. Live Tour starts
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: on the twenty third. Hang on second, me pull this up? Yeah,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: who's got the who's got the dates? Hand here? I
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: got it? One minute? One minute, damn it? Okay, ready
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: April twenty third, we're gonna be in Mesa, Arizona, free people.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Not from Arizona. That means Phoenix but not. April twenty four,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: San Diego, California, April twenty five, Anaheim, California, April twenty seven,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Sacramento twenty nine, Salt Lake City April thirty, Boise, Idaho.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Then May one, Missoula, Montana, May two Spokane, Washington, May
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: for Portland, Oregon, and then closing out the show Sinco Tomayo.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes, those trees Sinco to Mio. May fifth, Tacoma, Washington.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. A couple of things for folks searching for tickets,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: be sure to either go through the meteater dot com
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: events page yep and hit those links, or the venues
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: the venues only those two places. If you just type
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: in these shows in the Google machine.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: You'll want you want the resellers, and it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Is grossly expensive. Yeah, so go go through the media
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: dot com events page or directly to the theater that
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: is hosting the show. And then, on top of that,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: if you want to try to win some tickets, there
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: are pint nights hosted by b HI that proceed all
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: of these shows where you can actually participate in meat
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Eater trivia. You can win a bunch of free stuff,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: including seats to the show.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: And including a seat on stage playing the game right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, but we got to find did we finalize
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: the game?
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, get on stage, match your wits.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Uh oh. Also, when you buy a ticket, here here's
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: the here's the ur Tidbut I'll throw in the last
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: little thing. You can see it both ways, but when
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: you buy tickets it comes bundled with the Meat Eater
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Outdoor Cookbook Wild Game Recipes for the Grill, smoke or
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: camp stoven, Campfire Brand Spicketty new outdoor cookbook that we
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: have out right now, And I've been struggle a little
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: bituse I'm starting to put some pictures from the book
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: up on Instagram, and I'm like, I put one up
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: about I'm putting one up about. In the beginning of
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the book, we talk about like all this ancient cooking
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: methods stuff dating back to the Ice Age and ways
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: people dissingc So when you open the book, I realized
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that one of the first things you see is a
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: marmot who's had all of his hair burned off, which
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: is like how small. It's like how small game was
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: cooked at a time. You'd burn all his hair off
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: and roast it whole, and then its skin would turn
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: like a case. Then you open it up and the
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: meat inside was steamed. And I wonder when people see that,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: if they can picture that, they're also going to eventually
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: wind up later in the book reading about a charred
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: lemon gin and tonic, So they think they're like.
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: What the hell.
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: Don't judge your book by its covering. Don't judge your
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: book by the first spread.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Don't judge a book by the intro photos. Don't judge
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: a book by the singed marmint.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: I've been thinking about I've been waking up in the
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: middle of the night and think about those fish cakes
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: we made last week from the cookbook. And now I
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: think I'm gonna wake up in the middle of the
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: night and have this vision of a charred marmot.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Well, think about charred lemon gen and Tonics washing that
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: charred marmot. Back, Becky, what you take on the gray
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: wolf that just got killed in southern Michigan? How that transition?
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: That's a quick view turn. I don't you know, I
• 32:16
  Speaker 7: don't know enough about that particular animal to speak to you.
• 32:20
  Speaker 7: Just yeah, But I mean it wouldn't surprise me we
• 32:24
  Speaker 7: wound up having a gray wolf that we had collared
• 32:27
  Speaker 7: the Upper Peninsula that walked to Missouri.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:29
  Speaker 7: Yeah, So I mean we'll.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: That suck across the Mississippi.
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it crossed a hell of a lot
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: of territory between.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Do you think it ran on a bridge ice swim.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: That's a big swim.
• 32:40
  Speaker 7: It could be a big swim, but you know, who knows,
• 32:44
  Speaker 7: you know, whether it probably you know they can swim, well,
• 32:47
  Speaker 7: we know that, and we know they cross ice bridges
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: whenever they're ice dams, and we know we know they'll
• 32:55
  Speaker 7: cross bridges too, you know, when they when it's low
• 32:59
  Speaker 7: activity and the rest of us.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: So, but.
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: We've had we've had wolf sightings in the Northern Lower
• 33:06
  Speaker 7: Peninsula during heavy freeze over you know, across across the ice.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and so they come across the ice. We just
• 33:13
  Speaker 7: haven't been able to see find a dinner or anything,
• 33:16
  Speaker 7: you know, in the Northern Lower while I was still there.
• 33:19
  Speaker 7: So it doesn't surprise me. I mean, we've had black
• 33:21
  Speaker 7: bear in southern Michigan for well thirty years now.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got a lot of black bears in central
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: and northern Michigan.
• 33:28
  Speaker 7: You know, we do, we do.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: The wolf was killed by a.
• 33:35
  Speaker 7: U.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: The wolve's killed by a This is odd. Was killed
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: by a guided coyote hunter. There was a guy on
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a guided coyote hunt killed an eighty seven pound gray wolf.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: They're holding the body. You know, grey wolves are federally
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: protected Yeah, in there and they're holding the body for
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: ANEE cropsy, and I think someone said, I think that
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: we'll find that it was shot, but also checking its
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: parasite load and maybe try to get some idea where
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: it came from.
• 34:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah, they'll probably do DNA testing on.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: It too, I'm sure DNA database, right, so they can
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: tell who's breeding with who and where the kids go.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Before the show started, you and I talked about another
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Michigan thing I'd like you to speak to, and you
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: said you were disappointed on it. I've communicated with folks
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: from Michigan Nited conservation clubs on this. Is that that
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: explain how coyote management just changed in Michigan?
• 34:37
  Speaker 7: Well, the Commission Natural Resources Commission just voted to close
• 34:42
  Speaker 7: down the coyote season for several months of the year.
• 34:45
  Speaker 7: Up until now, coyotes have been legal to be taken
• 34:48
  Speaker 7: at any time.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: But how far back does that go?
• 34:52
  Speaker 7: Oh, let's see. I probably we probably made that change
• 34:57
  Speaker 7: in the eighties or nineties as coyotes moved into southern
• 35:02
  Speaker 7: Michigan and populations, we really saw a big increase across
• 35:07
  Speaker 7: you know, most of Michigan and across most of the
• 35:09
  Speaker 7: Midwest coyote populations took off and people were seeing damage
• 35:15
  Speaker 7: from them, depredation, and so with that we opened up,
• 35:20
  Speaker 7: you know, the ability to take coyotes just about any time,
• 35:24
  Speaker 7: all year round, and so this shuts it down for
• 35:27
  Speaker 7: a period of the year.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Now here's let me give you my two different ways
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of looking at it. One hand. On one hand, I
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: had a hard time getting worked up about it the
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: change because I was sinking to myself. They are at
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: they are pursued as a fur bear by travers, okay,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: travers and hunters, and if you go back any length
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: of time, I mean before the real biggest population explosion
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: in the South, I mean they were just like a
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: state people for bear and we're viewed as such.
• 36:03
  Speaker 7: Right, that's true?
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Uh, Red Fox, Oh, what season opens October fifteenth, whatever
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the hell it is. There's a season raccoon. Depending on
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: where you're at in the state, you might have a
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: November one opener on raccoon.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: Quick content, Well, we have a beaver, beautiful coyote hide
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: oh in in prime condition at like seven hundred and
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: fifty bucks on the auction house oddities.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Right now, yep, right off this wall.
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: But to the point that you were making. It's taken
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: during a season where that hide is prime prime, it's
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: it's full of for because it's cold out December January.
• 36:46
  Speaker 9: Is that yours from Montana?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: It's mine from Montana, from the winter season, from the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: wall to the studio.
• 36:53
  Speaker 9: It makes you realize that one of those is seven
• 36:54
  Speaker 9: to fifty.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Good chunk of money.
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: Right now they're one, But there's there's are there?
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Crianzy canna start now?
• 37:01
  Speaker 7: I'm going to start.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: There's a time in the season where that high does
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: not prime because it's warm and it's much more thin,
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: and it would not command the same amount of value
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: on like an open fur market.
• 37:15
  Speaker 7: Yes, and so I won't argue with you there. You
• 37:18
  Speaker 7: don't want two points, Okay, all right? Number one?
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: That's the number one point. I couldn't get worked up
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: about it because of that. But here's what I do
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: get worked up about, because I do get worked out
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: about it of when when they start, when people start
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: changing rules, and I don't necessarily agree with why they
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: changed it, Meaning if it had been the trappers or
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: hunters or the fur people saying what gives why are
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: you guys killing kyot's in the spring when it's with
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: pop season and then they're not worth anything than anyone anyways,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: why not leave them for people that that that wanna
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: you lie or make a few bucks on them later
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: in the year. But so in your explanation of this,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: who was pushing for the change, like was it coming
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: from them or no?
• 38:12
  Speaker 7: It was not coming from the hunters and the trappers,
• 38:15
  Speaker 7: So you know it was coming from individuals who do
• 38:18
  Speaker 7: not like the idea of year round killing of coyotes,
• 38:21
  Speaker 7: and I think the commission was uncomfortable with that. But
• 38:26
  Speaker 7: like you said, you held the same opinion I do.
• 38:29
  Speaker 7: It's not coming from the segment that wants to have
• 38:33
  Speaker 7: that population managed for maximum value out there. It's being
• 38:40
  Speaker 7: taken because we don't like the thought of taking coyotes
• 38:43
  Speaker 7: at that time of year. So what's happening now is
• 38:46
  Speaker 7: for individuals who have chickens or individuals who who are
• 38:50
  Speaker 7: out there and have deprivation issues. Now they've got to
• 38:53
  Speaker 7: go through getting a permit in order to take those
• 38:57
  Speaker 7: animals out of season, and I assume they'll be able
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: to do it. But every time you do that, you're
• 39:02
  Speaker 7: you're tying up a biologist time and energy to issue
• 39:06
  Speaker 7: a permit for what had been going on where they
• 39:09
  Speaker 7: could be actively managing some habitat so that you would
• 39:13
  Speaker 7: have better habitat on the landscape, you'd have better population management.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: You know, it's and it's a species that we really
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: can't Yeah, it's put a dent down.
• 39:23
  Speaker 7: No, it's super abundant, and so you know, let's be
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: realistic about it. You know, it's it's one of those
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: situations where people might not like the thought of it,
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: but it's it's part of reality that coyotes do get
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: in trouble, they do cause depredation issues for people out there.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: Doug Durren points out correctly, so that the pro argument
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: for year round coyote hunting is it's a superabundant resource,
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: and the anti argument it overlaps with that also where
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: it's like it's a superabundant resource and hunting hasn't been
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: proven to dent that resource, So why are you hunting it?
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: Because hunting isn't managing the population.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Whatever you're doing is not working, right, I can see
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: that are Yeah, Yeah, that's one of the that's like
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a tongue twister when it comes
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: to coyotes is you'll often have people point out that
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: that with when you're hunting coyotes, you'll offset pack dynamics
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: and it'll actually lead to fragmentation and more put production,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: meaning you'd have this this hierarchy that had some sort
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: of limit on who's reproducing. And then as you if
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: you kill dominant animals, you cause these like splintering factions
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: and it generates more put production. So kind of being
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: a smart ass, you might say, well, if you love coyotes,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: why would you not want kyote hunting because you love
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: coyotes and it seems to be really making a lot
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: more of them, you know, meaning I love deer. If
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I found that there was some thing hunters were doing
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: that was like producing tons of giant bucks, I would
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: be like, please continue, let's continue this because I love
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: these giant bucks. But they're saying, like I love kyotes,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: don't kill kyos because it just makes more coyotes, which is,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: like I said, it's an intellectual tongue twister.
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: I think it's less they love coyotes and they don't
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: love the idea of killing.
• 41:36
  Speaker 7: K Yeah, I think so too. And it's not just coyotes,
• 41:40
  Speaker 7: it's canines. I mean we see it with the wolf
• 41:42
  Speaker 7: population too. We've listed in d lifts listed wolves over
• 41:47
  Speaker 7: and over again in Michigan and the western Great Lakes population.
• 41:51
  Speaker 7: And you know, the solution when we had depredating or
• 41:56
  Speaker 7: when we had problem wolves that were getting in and
• 41:58
  Speaker 7: causing problems, when we couldn't do lethal take, and there
• 42:02
  Speaker 7: was a time when we couldn't, was to trap those
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: wolves and move them. And where are you.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: Moving them, Colorado?
• 42:11
  Speaker 7: You're moving them into the territory of another pack where.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: They're going to get brutally.
• 42:19
  Speaker 7: It's a brutal death sentence.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: I think, what interesting thing we just just saw it
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: with this uh wolf that that got killed in southern
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: Michigan is the success of the anti killing of wolf
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: party is the death of an individual animal is a
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: paper thin degree away from the extirpation of the species
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: as a whole. So when you talk to somebody, well
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: they just killed the wolf, they're going to kill all
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: the wolves. Where it's like you just whacked a white
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: tailed deer with your bumper for the seventh time this year.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: That doesn't equate to killing all the white tails.
• 43:05
  Speaker 7: No, And those charismatic species are special.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: So who you going to vote for for president?
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: When you when you were at when you were Charisma,
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: when you were at when you ran the the.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Fishing Game Department in Michigan. In a role like that,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: how do you grab like in a role like that,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: how do you how do you how do you got
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: to handle partisan politics?
• 43:39
  Speaker 7: Well, you know, first of all, is a as a
• 43:42
  Speaker 7: state employee, which I was. You've got to be real careful.
• 43:45
  Speaker 7: You can't get engaged in partisan politics. You can't do
• 43:49
  Speaker 7: you know, you can't do partisan fundraisers that tie your
• 43:52
  Speaker 7: name into you know, advocating for one party or one
• 43:58
  Speaker 7: candidate or another. You've got to be really careful with
• 44:01
  Speaker 7: the Hatch Act that you don't engage in in advocating
• 44:05
  Speaker 7: for certain issues that go to the public.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Do you stop did you just do you stop voting?
• 44:11
  Speaker 7: No?
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: You still vote?
• 44:12
  Speaker 8: No?
• 44:12
  Speaker 7: I still vote, Yeah, And I vote. I vote primaries
• 44:16
  Speaker 7: the whole nine yards and always have always will. You know,
• 44:21
  Speaker 7: it's it's my right to help decide who gets elected.
• 44:25
  Speaker 7: And I think everybody should engage and vote how they
• 44:30
  Speaker 7: feel most you know, the candidates that best represent their views.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: But you keep quiet about it. Yeah, you know when
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: you're in when you're in wildlife management at the state level.
• 44:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah, you really can't. You know, well, I'll be honest
• 44:44
  Speaker 7: with you. I worked for both Republican and Democratic administrations,
• 44:48
  Speaker 7: and you know, it's tough because there's a lot of
• 44:51
  Speaker 7: fundraising that goes on as you get into campaigns and
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: get ready for election years, and you and you wind
• 44:57
  Speaker 7: up happening to be very careful. I was. I was lucky.
• 45:01
  Speaker 7: I had a commission that helped do fundraising, you know,
• 45:04
  Speaker 7: for gubernatorial elections when it was expected that cabinet members
• 45:08
  Speaker 7: would do that, which I was a cabinet member. But
• 45:11
  Speaker 7: as you know, as an employee, I can't do that.
• 45:14
  Speaker 7: I can't get into the partisan so very much bipartisan
• 45:18
  Speaker 7: you try and work with both parties. Unfortunately, that middle
• 45:22
  Speaker 7: ground is disappearing and it's it's hard. And I tend
• 45:27
  Speaker 7: to be a moderate in my political views, you know,
• 45:29
  Speaker 7: I step on both sides of the aisle. I tend
• 45:31
  Speaker 7: to be fiscally conservative and a little more liberal on
• 45:34
  Speaker 7: some of the social issues, and so between those trying
• 45:38
  Speaker 7: to find that common ground. You know, it's really hard
• 45:43
  Speaker 7: because the parties have We've lost the we've lost the
• 45:47
  Speaker 7: conservative Democrats and the and the more liberal Republicans. They're
• 45:51
  Speaker 7: just fading away.
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted something spicier in that, Steve.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: not frustrating anything you're saying. I just I feel that
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: they're faded away. They're faded away from the areas where
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: you hear from people.
• 46:13
  Speaker 7: I think they're faded away in our elected representation because
• 46:18
  Speaker 7: you know, yeah, I don't think you know. And I
• 46:22
  Speaker 7: think we hang with people that tend to share our views.
• 46:24
  Speaker 7: You know, they share our activities. So I agree with you.
• 46:27
  Speaker 7: I think there are a lot of folks out there
• 46:29
  Speaker 7: that are like me. You know, when I talk to folks,
• 46:31
  Speaker 7: they they express similar views. And I don't think it's
• 46:36
  Speaker 7: just because they're trying to impress me that we're so
• 46:38
  Speaker 7: much alike. I think they probably do. But both parties
• 46:42
  Speaker 7: have taken over so such non overlapping issues. It makes
• 46:49
  Speaker 7: it really difficult.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I hang with people that share my activities, but then
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: not the views.
• 46:57
  Speaker 7: Oh, I will agree with you there.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some of my dear dear friends I feel have
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: some just ridiculous viewpoints. I forgive him it because they
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: like to fish. Well.
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: It mixed for interesting conversations.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: And the older I get them more Now when I
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: hear one, I don't even like I used to be
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: like I'd want to argue it. No, No, I'm just like,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: that's funny.
• 47:25
  Speaker 7: Once you start that argument, it's ending the argument that
• 47:28
  Speaker 7: becomes the problem.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I look for I look for. I sort
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: of am running this thing in my head. I was like,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: when you cut all the bullshit out, I think a
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: good person, and you know, I'm like, yeah, man, they're
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: a great person.
• 47:45
  Speaker 7: Well do I trust them? Do I trust them to
• 47:47
  Speaker 7: leave the country or the state, or to make to
• 47:50
  Speaker 7: make wise decisions?
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah? But then am I going to go ask them
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: where I think where they think COVID came from or whatever?
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Now like I might ask where that fish they call
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: came from? So in the so now right like you
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: you've ran, you ran a big national conservation organization which
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: everybody's heard of, Nation Wild Turkey Federation. You're at the
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: helm right now of another federal policy conservation group TRCP.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Yep uh, How does an organization? How do these organizations
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: handle the partisan question? Meaning, here we are, we're coming
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: up on an election cycle, which I feel like it's
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: already been going on for three years, but it's it's
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I guess starting, it started starting. It's gonna heat up,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be the most well, we're gonna have the
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: most expensive.
• 48:42
  Speaker 7: It's just going to be a wonderful year.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: We're gonna have the most expensive presidential election ever. And
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that really says anything about that
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: just might say something about the fact that every four
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: years it's more expensive. I don't know, most expensive, hotly contested.
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: There are some records that I don't really pay much
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: at times too, and when everything is like the most
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: expensive we've had yet, I think that's sort of a function.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Of advertising expensive. In four years, it'll be the most expensive.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: It's every everyone has been the most expensed.
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: I don't think we're going get to a point in
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: my adult life where we're like, man, this election is
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: half the cost of last one, the least expensive election
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: we ever had.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: I think though, in state politics, especially some of these
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: western states that do not have large populations comparatively, that's
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: where those those numbers matter. Like I look at the
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: amount of cash that's going to be spent and is
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: being spent on the governatorial race right now relative to
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: our size, Like the dollars per person, the dollars per person,
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: and it's and they're going to spend it. Yeah, it's dollars, yes,
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: not proportions, not fractions of dollars. And they're going to
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: spend it, which means we are going to get robo calls,
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: texts in you know, just like those political ads are
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: going to be served to us every which way possible
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: for in an increasing manner like it does not bode
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: well for the mental health of Montana's Now.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: No, when Davy Crockett was running for Congress, he would
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: do a little thing where if you came down and
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: voted for him, you'd get a shot of whiskey. You
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: could with the money they're spending, you could they could
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: hand out bottles of whiskey.
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it is.
• 50:31
  Speaker 7: Expensive, and and elections and campaigns have gone to micro targeting,
• 50:36
  Speaker 7: so they've segmented.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 50:38
  Speaker 7: They can tell now how you vote. You know, even
• 50:42
  Speaker 7: if you're in a state that you don't have to
• 50:43
  Speaker 7: declare your party, they can tell by your voting record
• 50:47
  Speaker 7: what you when you vote, which party you're most likely
• 50:50
  Speaker 7: to vote for, and they know, you know, is it
• 50:55
  Speaker 7: you know, are you a big fan of police protection
• 50:58
  Speaker 7: or not? Are you where do you stand on right
• 51:01
  Speaker 7: to life. They have all that information. So when they
• 51:04
  Speaker 7: go out and start walking for candidates, knocking doors, which
• 51:08
  Speaker 7: they do in hotly contested areas, they're pulling literature that
• 51:13
  Speaker 7: pertains to your interest.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting you bring it up because the other
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: day one of the we had a Senate a representative
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: from a Senate candidate knock on the door wanting to
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: speak to my wife. And when I informed him that
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: she wasn't there, I thought, well, now I'm going to
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: get the pitch. He just walked off.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: That's amazing.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: He knew, he knew who he.
• 51:38
  Speaker 7: Was there, he knew who he was there to talk to.
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: That's right.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: So as you look at this, as you look at
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: the landscape, like, how do you guys, how does the
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: game work? Because here at TRCP yep uh speak from
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: that seat or the NWTF seat whatever, no matter what
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: administration comes in, you need to come. You're gonna need
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: to go to the administration, right or to appointees or however,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: you're going to need to go there and and and say, uh,
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: let's work together.
• 52:11
  Speaker 7: That's right.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: So uh, but you can't you can't make a big
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: bet in one direction and then when they lose you'd
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: be like, I guess we're out of the game for
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: four years.
• 52:21
  Speaker 7: Well you can't.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: So you're what are you doing? Like, how are you?
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: How are you doing this?
• 52:25
  Speaker 7: Well, a couple of things.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 52:26
  Speaker 7: First, we and others in the conservation community, we being TRCP,
• 52:32
  Speaker 7: sit down and identify our policy objectives. What are real
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: priorities for us, you know, for the next administration, be
• 52:39
  Speaker 7: it Biden to be at Trump too, and write those
• 52:43
  Speaker 7: up so that we can share those with those those campaigns,
• 52:48
  Speaker 7: because you're this next year is they're campaigning, they're forming
• 52:51
  Speaker 7: their policy planks for their administration. By the time they
• 52:56
  Speaker 7: they have identified candidates for those cabinet posts, they will
• 53:00
  Speaker 7: identify people based on some of the objectives they want
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: to achieve. So we want to get into them before
• 53:06
  Speaker 7: they're elected, and we do that with both parties. We
• 53:10
  Speaker 7: share those information. We try and go over that information
• 53:13
  Speaker 7: with those campaigns so they understand why why it's important
• 53:17
  Speaker 7: to us. And then as we move forward and you
• 53:21
  Speaker 7: have an election and administration comes on board, you need
• 53:25
  Speaker 7: to get in there and build relationships. You won't always
• 53:28
  Speaker 7: agree with everything. It doesn't matter what the administration is,
• 53:32
  Speaker 7: you're going to disagree on certain things. But you need
• 53:34
  Speaker 7: to have a working relationship and you build that trust
• 53:38
  Speaker 7: that they will share information on what's coming out so
• 53:42
  Speaker 7: that you can prepare for it. You can look for it.
• 53:45
  Speaker 7: You can let them know where you see that's going
• 53:48
  Speaker 7: to be problematic, that it hasn't been well thought out.
• 53:52
  Speaker 7: You can ask them to hold it over for more
• 53:55
  Speaker 7: comment so that you can they can get a more
• 53:58
  Speaker 7: robust view on some of the issues that you think
• 54:01
  Speaker 7: are have been not taken into consideration, or even hold
• 54:06
  Speaker 7: off on a rule or piece of legislation that you
• 54:10
  Speaker 7: think is bad for it. And by doing that, you
• 54:15
  Speaker 7: try and build that working relationship and trust with that administration,
• 54:19
  Speaker 7: and then you know you're careful in terms of being
• 54:22
  Speaker 7: true to your positions, so that if you disagree with something,
• 54:27
  Speaker 7: you do it in a manner where you don't surprise them.
• 54:30
  Speaker 7: You know, it's okay to disagree on stuff, but nobody
• 54:33
  Speaker 7: likes being surprised, So let them know why you don't
• 54:36
  Speaker 7: like it, and bring the information on why you think
• 54:40
  Speaker 7: it hasn't been well thought out. Make the ask, and
• 54:43
  Speaker 7: then if you have to do editorials or sign on
• 54:47
  Speaker 7: letters or you know, come out strongly on it, they
• 54:51
  Speaker 7: know they know that you don't agree with it.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: They knew it was going to happen. New to thinking
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: What do you run? You talk about like you have
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: your plan for the next administration. You have to run
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: like parallel two paths, right, because you might be looking
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: at like let's say you're looking at you're talking about
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Biden too, Okay with that, you'd say, well, there's a
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: clearer pathway to climate issues, there's a clearer pathway to
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: wildlife overpasses through infrastructure spending, right yep.
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: But there was in the Trump administration too, Is that right?
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 55:31
  Speaker 7: Trump administration was very supportive of those migration corridors and
• 55:35
  Speaker 7: they actually dedicated some funding to it. So both administrations
• 55:40
  Speaker 7: are on that. But like Biden, we're looking at alternative energy.
• 55:45
  Speaker 7: But the BLM solar plan, this is one that we
• 55:47
  Speaker 7: have an editorial coming out on Joel's Gutten editorial on it.
• 55:51
  Speaker 7: We're a bit concerned with Church with what they're identifying
• 55:54
  Speaker 7: in terms of placement in those migration corridors for solar do.
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: You might talk to a lot of Idaho folks who
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: are real, real fire out because the BLM plan in
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: Southwest Idaho uy he downwhere Snort got bit. But there's
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: also California big horn sheep super like the genetics for
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: like that really wide ass mule deer buck that down
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: in that country, and big old pronghorn sage grouse. It's
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: a very sensitive area.
• 56:22
  Speaker 7: We're not opposed to alternative energy by any stretch of
• 56:25
  Speaker 7: the imagination. I mean, we need to move into alternative energy.
• 56:28
  Speaker 7: We just want it to be carefully thought out. You know,
• 56:30
  Speaker 7: we need we need working landscapes that provide great habitat
• 56:36
  Speaker 7: but also provide you know, clean water, clean air, food
• 56:39
  Speaker 7: that we like to enjoy an energy and so, but
• 56:42
  Speaker 7: it's about doing the pre work to make sure it's
• 56:46
  Speaker 7: being placed in the appropriate locations that aren't going to
• 56:49
  Speaker 7: have big, big ramifications for some of the species that
• 56:53
  Speaker 7: we hold near and dear.
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: And I think there's a huge misconception that if you're
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: supportive of alternative energy, that you're supportive of it anywhere.
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: And I think, like from someone who as a former
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: TIERCP staffer, like the some of the like the sessions
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: I remember of people really hand ringing and pulling their
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: hair out or looking at maps of solar placement, and
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: like there's people on the ground working for you know
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: that we're supportive of alternative energy, but recognize the threat
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: and the danger of citing it improperly. And so I
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: think like there's a lot of back and forth. If
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: you follow the discourse about you know, it's either one
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: way or the other way, and there's people on the
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: ground that are really diligently thinking about how do we
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: stop this in places where it's going to have a
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: huge impact on wildlife and how do we do it responsibly?
• 57:48
  Speaker 7: And we can have both. I mean that's the thing
• 57:50
  Speaker 7: when you look at the acreage requirements, we have more
• 57:53
  Speaker 7: enough acreage outside those corridors. Now there might be other
• 57:56
  Speaker 7: species and concerns or landscape characteristics, historical significance, you know,
• 58:02
  Speaker 7: a range of issues, but nonetheless we need to take
• 58:06
  Speaker 7: into account these really critical areas. We saw the same
• 58:10
  Speaker 7: thing in Michigan with wind power. You know, when we
• 58:13
  Speaker 7: were putting up wind turbines the areas they had the
• 58:16
  Speaker 7: greatest wind potential where right where birds migrated, and it
• 58:21
  Speaker 7: was that's going to be problematic. I mean, if you're
• 58:24
  Speaker 7: killing birds like crazy when they're and we got wind
• 58:27
  Speaker 7: turbines located all down on the east side of the state,
• 58:31
  Speaker 7: which is a major flyway corridor for migratory birds. That's
• 58:35
  Speaker 7: a problem, you know, so we you know, in that situation,
• 58:39
  Speaker 7: it was about pulling the right expertise together, mapping it
• 58:42
  Speaker 7: out and looking at those wind maps and looking at
• 58:46
  Speaker 7: that where those migration corridors were, and finding solutions to it.
• 58:50
  Speaker 7: So you're placing alternative energy where it's going to be
• 58:54
  Speaker 7: beneficial and not harmful to those species.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Let me back up on the thing, and I'm not
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: trying to drive you to give a drive you to
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: give an answer you're not comfortable with, but I'm just
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: not clear on it. Yeah, we talk about this this
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: like administration planning. Do do you develop two or do
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: you develop one? And like you develop one plan for
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: the next four years and you're presenting it to each campaign.
• 59:23
  Speaker 7: No, we do two. I mean, for one thing, parties
• 59:27
  Speaker 7: talk different language, They use different phraseology, even though they
• 59:32
  Speaker 7: might have the same issue, but they talk about it
• 59:36
  Speaker 7: in different terms. And so you want you want the
• 59:40
  Speaker 7: particular party that you're going towards to embrace this and
• 59:44
  Speaker 7: use it. I mean, you want it to be their
• 59:47
  Speaker 7: recipe book coming out, So you want it to be
• 59:50
  Speaker 7: put in terms that resonate with other parts of that
• 59:55
  Speaker 7: party plank and what they're doing, and so and there,
• 59:59
  Speaker 7: there's and elements are going to be more attractive to
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 7: one party over the other.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: They just are.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 7: I mean, you know, by and large, you'll see more
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 7: emphasis put on renewables with the Democratic Party, and security
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 7: with oil security that's talked about more in Republican Now.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 7: In reality, we just we've produced more oil and gas
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 7: in this country with each administration despite the party, in
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 7: recent years, is that right, Yep, it's been ramping up.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 5: I get a record high, right, yeah, in terms of
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: oil produced in the US.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 7: And people don't recognize that, but it's true. We have
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 7: as part of our national security plan.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, I understand what you're saying with tailoring it in that.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: And there also and there's probably cases where you're gonna
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: there's probably cases where you're going to drive at there's
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: probably cases where you're you're asking for the same thing,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: but you're phrasing it as a different priority.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 7: There was also issues you know, we tend to the
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 7: Republican Party tends to be a little more states rights.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 7: Then the Democratic Party looks for national solutions on those issues.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 7: So you know, that's another way that you're taking a
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 7: look at it. You know, during the Trump administration, we
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 7: saw a nice expansion and hunting and fishing on national
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 7: refuge lands. And not only did they do that, but
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 7: speaking as a state director, one of the things I
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 7: really liked is they put out a mandate with that
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 7: the regulations were going to be as close to the
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 7: state regulations as they could be. So before you had
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 7: if you were going to hunt on you know, refuge land,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 7: you might have different shell limits, you might have different
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 7: days of the week that there was hunting, you might
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 7: have all kinds of different requirements that were a little
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 7: different season requirements than what you had at the state
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 7: on the state land. And that just gets complex, you
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 7: know that, I know that, and so they tried to
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 7: simplify that bring the federal lands closer in alignment with
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 7: the state regulations.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Do you feel is there any rumor or anything around
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: would Trump return to Barnhardt as his Interior secretary? Barnhart Bernhart, Sorry,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: it was David?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 10: Is that David?
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 7: Hey, I do know that David has stayed very engaged
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 7: in natural resource issues, and you know, he was very
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 7: loyal to Trump throughout the administration and even afterwards. So
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 7: you know, I I don't know, but I would assume
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 7: he'll have some role in the administration.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: I heard a a person very involved in conservation. I'm
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: not trying to be like, you know, secret about someone,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Uh take a private conversation and apply it to someone,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: but someone very involved in conservation had said to me
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: that what they what they liked about Trump's Interior secretary
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Part two, the second Interior Secretary, was that he would
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: save you a lot of time by saying, uh, buddy,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: you're not going to get anywhere on this with me,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: and it would allow you to focus on the areas
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: where he said, let's have a conversation and would tell
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: you what's going to happen. Yeah, and then and then
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: stick with that.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: And he said it was it just was. It was efficient. Yeah,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: I mean to to to spend time and resource there
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: because you never wound up being that you wasted a
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: bunch of time on something that you didn't know that
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're gonna read the newspaper that
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: things went in the direction you didn't anticipate.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 7: He was an honest broker in terms of telling you
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 7: where issues were going if there was already a thought
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 7: on it, so and and he he had researched issues also,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 7: so he had a pretty good handle on a lot
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 7: of the conservation issues out there in that administration. You know,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 7: one of the things people probably don't realize is a
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 7: lot of the staff support that comes in are the
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 7: same folks. So you'll have administrations where you know a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 7: particular individuals in the administration they're a staff person, and
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 7: you might switch parties for four years or eight years,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 7: but then you'll bring back a lot of those people
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 7: that had worked during the previous Republican or Democratic administration
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 7: because they kind of know the party priorities. And also
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 7: they are very helpful in getting new candidates and new
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 7: administrations in place and off to an effective start to
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 7: move that agenda forward, because it's it's hard, especially if
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 7: somebody comes in from outside government. You've got to make
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 7: an awful lot of appointments, You've got an awful lot
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 7: to do, to have executive orders written, and we've all
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 7: seen there are more and more things being done by
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 7: executive authority now and administrations kind of flip flop and
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 7: reverse each other's executive order right out of the gate.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 7: And they do that by bringing back people who are knowledgeable,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 7: know how to write executive orders, and are familiar with
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 7: the topic and have experience in it.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: We recently had a guest on talking about offshore wind
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: offshore when you know electriacy generation, how do you yeah,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: wind power, wind power. At the end of the interview,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: I said, so, you know, when Trump wins in November,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: where is all this sit And he didn't have a
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: great answer, but I felt like you could spend a
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: lot of time working on something if you weren't being shrewd.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time working on something and
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: then just have the rug ripped out from underneath you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: every four years.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah. And that's why administrations work so hard to
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 7: get re elected and have at least an eight year runway,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 7: because it takes, you know, it takes really a couple
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 7: of years to get administration in and rolling, to get
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 7: all your your appointments confirmed and in there, and start
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 7: to implement that policy direction, and by then you're into
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 7: the next election cycle. In your campaigning, the administration is
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 7: and so you know, and and quite often what we'll
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 7: also see is at the end of the administration that's
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 7: when the promises that were made when they came into
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 7: office get run through, and some of those, quite frankly,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 7: can be quite ugly.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: That's what I was going to ask is when, because
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: both candidates would be their their last term, last four yep, right,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: So that's typically when, as you just said, like you
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: get to capitalize on the earth promises, some of the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: campaign promises they got them elected in the first place,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: that's right, or one that independent constituency. Right, We're like,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: is there going to be such a restart if Trump
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: were to win? Would it hinder that last four years
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: of getting ship done?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 11: Oh?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Like as yours? Yeah? With does the does the break?
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Does the four year vacation sabbatical interrupt the momentum that
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: you would have had your second term momentum?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Because what we saw right was like I think,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: like clean Water Act is always a great ping pong ball, right,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: Like God forbid we have somebody be like, yeah, some
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: of that was okay, so we're just gonna return the
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: pendulum to the middle, But instead you watch that pendulum
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: go yeah, and it's it's.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 7: We're seeing more more of that.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So like that's what I'm I'm wondering, right,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: is like the first two years are just going to
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: be like knocking those ping pong balls all the way
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: back over to one side.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, yes, and no, I mean they're gonna
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 7: if a new administration comes in, or even the current administration,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 7: they're going to have some individuals who do not you know,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 7: cabinet members and other appointees under secretaries who will not
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 7: persist through the second term of the administration or with
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 7: a new administration, they'll have to name a whole new
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 7: cabinet and all those other appointed positions, and quite frankly,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 7: that takes a lot of time and energy.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: So they'll or, as we've seen in the past, not
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: appointing positions.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's right, right, that's right. Not appointing positions is
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 7: also a tactic out there, having interim folks and acting folks.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting tactic when you have divisions.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 7: When you can't get somebody confirmed.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Well no, no, I mean that also, but when you
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: just have areas in which you're not that interested, I
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: think you'd like to see downsize it's just the appointment,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: that's right, and.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 7: Leave lots of vacancies in the organization. Is there.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 9: Is there an area potentially with say renewables or energy
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 9: production nationally. UH that that both administrations kind of have
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 9: more of an intersection or similar thinking on that you'd
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 9: see as that uh as that issue might have national
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 9: security concerns for example with solar or offshore or well.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 7: Both administrations have been ramping up, you know, hydrocarbon production
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 7: in the United States, so we're more self sufficient there.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 7: So that has been an ongoing trend as we talked about.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 7: You know, I think yes and no think. I think
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 7: you're gonna see both administrations wanting to get into market
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 7: based incentives that are out there. I mean, we've got
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 7: to be able to make carbon part of the economy
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 7: in order to treat it effectively. This is my two cents.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 7: I mean, it doesn't make any sense to have national
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 7: forests that are going up in flames and burning fiber
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 7: and causing tremendous degradation of habitats out there, rather than
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 7: removing some of that fiber, mimicking natural processes and using
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 7: that fiber and actually storing that carbon. So we've got
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 7: to find ways that we can rebuild these local economies
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 7: to have working landscapes. And we've lost a lot of
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 7: that local rural economy. I mean, we don't have mills
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 7: in much United States anymore in order to to even
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 7: handle that fiber. Part of our problem with you know,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 7: there's been concerns with prescribed fire on the landscape because
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 7: there have been a couple of fires that have gotten
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 7: away from the Forest Service or state agencies that have
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 7: been using it. But are we're using prescribed fire sometimes
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 7: in cases where it's very different today than it used
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 7: to be, where you know, you might run fire through
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 7: an oak savanna or a pine savannah and one day,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 7: you know what the conditions are going to be, we
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 7: can go out there and see what the humidity is.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 7: We have good weather satellite data. Now we've got big
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 7: piles of logs that we have no mill to run
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 7: it to. We've got no log haulers to haul it too.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 7: So you've got this huge pile of logs that are
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 7: been cut and they're just stacked on the landscape, and
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 7: we're using prescribed fire then to burn that pile of logs.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 7: What happens to that prescribe fire window? You know, anybody's
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 7: had bomb fire, you know, it goes from a one
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 7: day fire.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: Eventually you're standing around being like, oh my gosh, it's.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 7: A multi day fire, and then your chance of having
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 7: fire escape from that. You know, you have winds come
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 7: up in unexpected weather situations. When you have a big,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 7: big inferno going like that, you can't just kill it,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 7: you know, and so it's very difficult.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: You're talking about disposing of of stuff from thinning operations
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: because there's nowhere to go, there's nowhere to use, there's
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: no way to use it economically. Yeah, it might be
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: to you, so it just has to get torched.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 7: It might be a salvage cut that goes in. You
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 7: might have a severe ice storm that comes in and
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 7: closes roads and closes trails. You need to get that
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 7: down material out of there. It might be win throw.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 7: I mean, we have tremendous areas in the Upper Peninsula
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 7: and Lower Peninsula Michigan where winds race across those lakes
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 7: and they will you know, certain events will throw trees down.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like an avalanche path on relative you know.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 7: Or it could be a thinning operation where you're degrading
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 7: that forest. You're getting so much fiber and so much
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 7: ladder fuel that's creating fire damage, you know, fire hazard
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 7: and damage for the future of that forest. So at
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 7: that point you want to remove it, but you know,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 7: you want to remove it and be able to use
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 7: that product if possible, And that's where we need to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 7: rebuild that infrastructure in some manner.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: How do you as a as a federal policy organization
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: or you know, or a conservation group with federal scope, national,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: national level scope, how do you guys come in and uh,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: is it okay to come in and weigh in on appointments?
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we're talking about like interior secretary like
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: that that an administration when they when when when a
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: when an administration picks it's it's secretary of the Interior.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: You're sort of like looking at just this hugely impactful appointment.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: It's going to be that's going to be your enemy,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: that's going to be your ally. Right? Is it Is
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: there a pathway to come in and say, hey, that
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: that choice ain't gonna work.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 7: Yes, there have been in the past with the going
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 7: in and saying, you know, this is just not an
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 7: appropriate appointment given you know what this person has done
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 7: previously or what they are saying publicly on it, or
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 7: we have concerns about working with it. But typically what
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 7: we try and do is way in early in terms
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 7: of the types of expertise or major issues that we
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 7: think are coming up that that the administration should look
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 7: at and consider for appointments out there. And quite frankly,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 7: most administrations coming in they ask key partner groups out there,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 7: who do you know good?
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you get a chance, you could like slide
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: a resume over. Yeah, are you are you up for
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: that job?
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 9: No?
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: No, you're not.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 7: No, But you know, I went in and interviewed for
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 7: Director of the Fish and Wildlife Service years ago, and
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 7: that's how it was. I kept saying I wasn't interested
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 7: in it, and it was like, we really want to
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 7: talk to you, just come in and talk to us.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 7: So I flew in, talked to him for a day
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 7: and told him who I thought would be really good,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 7: But it wasn't me. You know, we needed to make
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 7: deep cultural change in that organization at that time, and
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 7: I really thought it needed to come from somebody within
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 7: the organization, and and they did. That person came in.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 7: Sam Hamilton came in and was very effective while he
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 7: was there. Unfortunately he died of a heart attack lead
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 7: too early in life.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: Uh, before we start recording you're talking about we were
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: talking about when you hit you uh, you ran the
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: you ran the DNR in Michigan. And then later we're
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: asked would you like to be a commissioner, and you
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: felt that that was inappropriate to have like a former,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: like a former department head sitting on the commission and
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: having I don't know, what's a confused power dynamic.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 7: Well, I think it's difficult. I think it's difficult for
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 7: private organizations or nonprofits to have their past CEO sit
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 7: on their border directors. Your border directors is your boss,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: and to have your predecessor be your boss puts you
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 7: in an uncomfortable situation when you know there are key
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 7: initiatives or changes that person made and you're recommending something different.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 7: I didn't have to deal with that when I was director.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 7: I didn't have any past directors. In fact, there haven't
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 7: been past directors on the commission before until the person
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 7: that followed me was named on the commission for a
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: short time. And quite frankly I talked to him about it.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 7: He said it was awful. Oh okay, you know, and
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 7: the groups try and use you also, you know, I
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 7: get called now on issues where the sportsman's groups don't
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 7: necessarily agree with the decision, and they want me to
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 7: come out and publicly weigh in on it. Oh and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 7: you know, I'm not so sure my opinion at this
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 7: point is any more important than anybody else's opinion out there.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 7: But the other part of it is, you know, I
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 7: think those jobs are really tough, and I don't want
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 7: to make it tougher that person that.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: I was more bringing that up to tea up to
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: another thing, is you would said before we started recording
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: to day, you're talking about what you're seeing in general.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: I'll have you put in your own words, but like
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: a general erosion of commission authority? Can can you explain?
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: Can you real quick tell people, you know, speaking from
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: that you got fifty of these things like what are
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: commissions and what do you mean by commission authority?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 7: Well, commissions natural resources commissions, and they sometimes are called
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 7: fishing game commissions, but typically they are appointed positions appointed
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 7: by the governor and then they are the body that
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 7: either hires the director of the Department Natural Resources or
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 7: fishing Game or whatever it's called in that state, or
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 7: they are the decision maker on hunting and fishing regulations.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 7: So you've got this this public commission with appointed people
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 7: to help help insulate the departments directly from the governor's office.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 7: So even though you're part of the executive branch, you
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 7: know you don't. You have a little bit of buffer
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 7: in there. And they also provide some real transparency because
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 7: typically those commissions don't pass regulations, they don't hire directors
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 7: without public input. When I was hired, my interview was televised,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 7: so it was you know, it was a very public
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 7: process that went through in terms of selection.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Did they ask what your spirit animal was?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 7: No, they didn't ask what my spirit animal was. They
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 7: asked an awful lot of other questions, So I got
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 7: to tell you. And but you know, that process of
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 7: gathering public input on various regulations is really important, and
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 7: we are seeing now more and more directors are selected
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 7: not by the commission but by the governor. They become
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 7: gubernatorial appointments, which occurred in Michigan when I was there.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 7: I was the last commission appointed and the first gubernatorial
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 7: appointed director. So the commission of the director, the governor
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 7: in the state passed an executive order that made that
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 7: appointment her appointment rather than the commissions.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: Because they just didn't like what they were getting from
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: the Commission because they wanted to be just like more
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: an instrument of the administration.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 7: Like, what is the push I think, you know, I
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 7: think they you know, what I heard was you want
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 7: direct accountability of your cabinet members. But I really think
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 7: when you get into office and you name your cabinet,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 7: you want to be able to name those cabinet members
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 7: so that they're all people that are affiliated in helping
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 7: move your agenda forward. And what the second thing that
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 7: has happened with that, though, is the tenure of agency
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 7: directors has shortened. Now the average tenures less than three years. Well,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 7: it's hard to manage natural resources that have you know,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 7: long history lifespan, scientific the whole nine yards on really
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 7: short rotation. So yes, I hear governors want that direct accountability.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 7: But having some some transition and having directors span various parties,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 7: it's not all bad. It's good, I mean in my opinion,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 7: and I think having the Commission in there and most
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 7: of your commissions are required to be bipartisan, so they
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 7: have the call for in various states. You know, commissioners
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 7: either represent a geographic location or they represent political party.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or or uh in or factions of industry meaning
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: commercial guides and guides and outfitters, commercial interests, agriculture.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 4: You need where you're.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Trying to strive for some level. And I think that
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: and I've heard and maybe it's just a tradition in Washington,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: but regionality, Yeah, I think you see specified regionality as well. Yeah,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: because so many from the you know, west of the Cascades,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: East of the Cascades, that's right.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 7: Sorry, But with that, what we're seeing is those commissions
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 7: are both their authorities getting nit back, you know, sometimes
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 7: through state law that you know, legislators are trying to
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 7: enact laws on taking of game and fish species or
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 7: the method of take, and then the other way is
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 7: they're losing their authority to a point, also a point
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 7: a point your director.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: The director, Yeah, got him? And you generally are uneasy
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: with this, I am.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 7: I think it creates more partisan politics into the natural
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 7: resource arena, and I think it creates more of these shifts.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 7: And just like we talked about with executive orders that
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 7: swing so far one way and then the other way,
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 7: you know, that's that you waste a lot of time
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 7: and energy.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like ladies and gentlemen, we're all in on renewables.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: Then ladies and gentlemen, we're all in on high.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 5: Slow down the pendulum a little bit.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: Uh, just I got a last question for you that's
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: a little more oplicated, but uh, just an observation about
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: the wild pendulum swings on. I mean, people like the
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: bitch about gridlock, but I always like to remind folks
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: that this is quite intentional. You know, we could be
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: like Venezuela. You know, hey we're communists, and then like
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: a couple months later, hey we're ultra right, Hey we're
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: back to communists. I mean, those are you know, when
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: people bitch about gridlock, I can have a.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 4: Little effect on your bank account.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: When people bitch about gridlock and all this, it's like
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: it's this is intentionally constructed that we don't go down
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: wild ass that you can't harness the moment and going
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: wild directions all the time. Right, And so I don't like,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: I get aggravated about the things that I want to
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: happen that don't happen quickly. But in general, it's like
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: it's as some stability.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 5: The other people's stuff is going just as slow.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: It's better. Yeah, So if I don't get what I
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: want and they don't get what they want, I feel
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: okay about it.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 7: Our issues tend to do really well though, during gridlock.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 7: So you know, here's the other part of it is,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 7: we might get frustrated, but we are usually highly effective
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 7: when Congress or state legislatures cannot agree on issues. Our
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 7: conservation issues usually do really well because.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 4: You can be the awesome person who says, hey, I
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: got something that everybody like, Yeah, exactly right.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: There's no like hot button social issue wrapped up into it.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 7: Well, that's right. I mean in DNR, we used to
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 7: call ourselves the Department of Fun that doesn't want to
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 7: support the Department of Fun. I mean, you have hunting,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 7: you have camping, you've got timber industry, you've got fishing
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 7: and hunting and wildlife viewing. So I mean, but most
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 7: of our legislation we work in a bipartisan manner. Anyhow
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 7: to try and get things so that you have both
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 7: sponsors of bills on the right and the left, and
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 7: and introduce thos and try and keep them fairly evenly matched.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 7: So those we tend to be highly successful during periods
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 7: of gridlock when Congress can't deal with the other stuff, and.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: They need to have something that they need to bring you.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: I supported this bill.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 7: That's right.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: Uh, here's the one is here's one. It's more complicated.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: It's not complicated. Answers is complicated to ask.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: Everyone loves to talk to Gripe about ballot box biology,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: ballot box initiatives. And also I find this is an
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: area that really accentuates a lot of hypocrisy. Meaning I'm
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: very supportive of the ballot initiatives that guarantee the right
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: to hunt trap and fish. Okay, So I'll be like, hell, yeah,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: vote yes, this is November for your states right to
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: hunt fish. Okay. Then the next time some a ballot
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: initiative comes up that I don't like, I'll be like,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: there you go, damn it, ballot box biology, right, putting
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: it to the voters. That's not how you do it.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: But a minute ago, I was just avid, you know
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: what I mean. A minute ago, I was just saying, Oh, you.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 4: Can get the uninformed mass to vote your way. It's
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: a great thing.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: So people love right, like everybody complains about it, But
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: they complain about it only when there's a ballot box
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: initiative that they hate. And when there's ones they support,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: they're getting out the vote.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: Well, it's like people don't really complain about judicial activism
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 5: when the courts are finding in their favor.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Sure, you know. Yeah, So here's the question that's that
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: was just the observation. Is it really is there more
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: of this now than there was? Or is it just
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: always been this way? I mean, is it really more
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: ballot box biology and ballot box?
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 9: What what?
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 4: Wildlife?
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 9: Man?
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 7: I think we go through waves, to be honest with you,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 7: I think there are periods. You know, when I think
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 7: back through my career, there were periods where we had
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 7: ballad initiatives that we fought and that we supported, and
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 7: then you'll have a quiet period for a while, and
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 7: then it creeps back up again. So it's usually when
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 7: there's an action and a reaction that's out there and.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, like, I'll show you that's right, I'll give you
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: a ball.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 7: But we have seen some of the national challenges towards
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 7: hunting and fishing. We have seen those been direct campaigns
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 7: that are now being fought at the state level. So
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 7: I think you see more activity to try and restrict
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 7: and also promote hunting and fishing at that state level
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 7: than we used to do. Where it used to be,
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 7: you know, we had more national legislation and the rest
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 7: of it, and so there's more activism at that state level.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: So that is thing. Yeah, I think so, because you
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: were saying earlier that big box, all the giant big
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: box and no one after him might have been a
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: bat might be faulty, memory might be faulty. But the
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: days back when they weren't ballot box initiating wildlife decisions
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: is new ish. Yeah, I you know, it's expanded.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 7: You know, I remember we had we had some back
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 7: in the seventies, but then really in the nineties it
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 7: really came alive and then we've kind of seen it
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 7: dining down and now it's you know, we had periods
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 7: across the country where there was a big push to
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 7: to do ballot initiatives to protect the right to hunt
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 7: and fish, and now you're seeing challenges again.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 7: So and we're seeing a big push right now in
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 7: several states for trying to advocate for these commissions to
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 7: have appointments that are non hunters and even anti hunters,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 7: an angler.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: Zoo keepers.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we got a uh, everybody's got an test in
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: the state's wildlife, so we need to have those interests
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: represented on the board. Unfortunately, like that, never you never
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 4: get to ask the question, well are there interests not
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 4: being represented currently by our current management plan? We never
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 4: get to ask that. So what what is the impetus?
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 11: Right?
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 10: M hm?
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean they're managing far more species that
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: aren't one hundred and fished than are and have been
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: for quite some time. Yeah, let me give you one
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: last question, and then these guys might have a last question.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: You're not going to do the who are you voting for? Again?
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: How do you handle that?
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 7: I'm voting for my daughter, she's running for county commissioner?
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 4: Nepotism?
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: How do you handle that question? Let let let's let's
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: roll play for a minute. I'm uh okay, I'm I'm
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: uh running for president okay. And and some we're having
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: a meeting about agenda. He said, hey, I want to
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: hear from the big conservation groups about what you guys
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: are thinking. And I'm crafting my thing. And we finished
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: out the meeting, and and like you and I meet
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: in the hallway and I'm like, well, can I plan
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: on your support this November? Becky? Now you do your part.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: I just did my part. Can I plan on your
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: support this November?
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 7: If it's a candidate that I was already planning to
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 7: support and I felt was the best candidate, I would
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 7: probably let that individual know that I was going to
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 7: support them personally.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: First, I don't have your vote. I don't have your
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: votes to do that.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 7: No, I'm still deciding, but at this point I'm not
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 7: leaning towards this.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: But you know, that's what you'd say.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 7: It depends on the situation. If I was in representing
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 7: TRCP at the meeting, I wouldn't answer it at all.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: But how how okay, how do you answer it? That's
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: why I'm trying to the role play here. We are,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: You're representing TRCP, and I say I'd like to know
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: that I could count on your support this November. I'm
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: just like, how do you do it?
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 7: I'm interim CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, which
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 7: is a nonprofit. Legally, we cannot support partisan candidates.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: Hard argu trap me. Okay, that's good, that's good. I'm
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: just helping you rehearse because this might happen to you. Oh,
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: I know, here's the last one. The last one I
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: got from you, Where should people Where should people be
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: paying the most attention in the next four years If
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: we're talking about just conservation with a big c right
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: like not not local, not necessarily local issues like oh
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: they messed with our elk management plan, but like big
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: picture your kids are going to feel the impacts of this.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: Where should people be paying attention?
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 7: Well, a couple of things I think they really need
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 7: to pay attention to. Number one one is we talked
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 7: about it earlier, those working landscapes. As this country moves
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 7: into renewables and we have more and more pressure on
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 7: the landscape, livestock and close proximity to wildlife in the
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 7: whole nine yards, we need to make sure that we
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 7: are planning for that and putting together good overall policy
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 7: and policy direction that accommodates both both renewable energy, people, livestock,
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 7: food and wildlife, and great hunting access out on the
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 7: landscape and fishing. The other part of it is, I
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 7: would say, on the accessibility issues to making sure that
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 7: our public lands remain public and that the tools that
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 7: we have in the toolbox for incentivizing private land management
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 7: remain there and remain effective. We're trying to get a
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 7: farm bill through. You guys know, the last farm bill
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 7: expired in September of twenty three as one your extension.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 7: It's going to expire again in twenty four later this year.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 7: And that is the biggest piece of conservation legislation usually
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 7: that we ever pass. It's huge. Sixty percent of these
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 7: country is in private land, and you know that farm
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 7: bell provides tremendous incentives for people to farm the best
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 7: and leave the rest. You know, it's kind of one
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 7: of the catchphrases that we say out there, but really
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 7: helps people steward that landscape and wildlife. They don't recognize
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 7: property boundaries. I mean, the bottom line is we need
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 7: great public land management and we need great private land management.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 7: And I personally believe we need very good active management.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 7: We can't just draw a line around it, leave it
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 7: alone and call it good unless we're willing to wait
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 7: centuries for you know, restoration after major wildfires or you know,
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 7: for big storms and you know the huge blowdowns and
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 7: and you can't even use that particular land for a while.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: Got it all right? So thank you for sharing. You
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: want to ask vote for me November. I will tell
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: you you know what you wouldn't do it for me.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: But I'm gonna tell you right now you can count
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: on my support, all right.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 7: All right, I hope Terry's support.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 5: Anything else, guys, thanks for thanks for coming on and
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 5: thanks for all the work that you're doing.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 7: My pleasure. We've got a great team at t r
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 7: c P, which you certainly know and and all of
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 7: you do, and they do great work, and they and
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 7: they tackle the big problems, you know. I think that's
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 7: the thing that tr CP I feel most strongly about.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 7: A lot of organizations play offense or defense on law
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 7: some policies, but TRCP really builds this think tank model
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 7: where they pull all the groups together and do the
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 7: energy to try and build good policy direction and then
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 7: build that campaign from the ground up. That's pretty special
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 7: and it takes lots of time and effort.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: Well, what, sorry, what do we gain by supporting a
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: group like TRCP, Because it's not a membership organization.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 6: No, it's not.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 7: It's not a membership organization. Most of our funding, about
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 7: two thirds of it comes through grants and foundations and
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 7: then personal donors and family foundations that donate on restricted revenue.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 7: But what you're bringin from it I think is the
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 7: coalition pulling the organizations together around common ideas, big picture ideas,
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 7: and then doing the legwork to really invest and figure
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 7: out how we're going to solve those problems.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate the life you've spent in conservation, and
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you're measured, rational, well articulated perspectives on things.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 7: And then well thank you sir.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that'll that'll. This will inoculate us from some
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: of the nonsense that we're going to hear between now,
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: from all directions it's between.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 7: I know, I know it's it's going to be a
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 7: tough year in that regard. It really is going to
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 7: be a tough year.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: Well, hang in there. Well, maybe after the election you
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: can come back and then tell us what you think.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 7: No, I'm I'm hopeful after the election, I'm going to
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 7: be retired. That's right, you re retired, retired, retired, I
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 7: get it right.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 4: This time we'll pipe you in like Susie or from.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: Your thirty five football that's right, all right, thank you
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: very much, beg you special.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 6: Lot of hard praise the seand pattern. Hey, they they
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 6: always chant to love me all throughout the fall.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 11: When it comes to springtime, they start dropping luck.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 6: They they only want for my hunt, and they only
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 6: want before a fish.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: And.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 6: They only want before the mouth. It's they come around and.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 11: They only want fort and they only want before the
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 11: sand tail crank. They want before the lactail buck, sandering neck,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 11: the real grand They only want forma hunt in.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 6: Only end hunt and seize me. They always found a
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 6: reason to love me and leave me for the next.
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 6: In love, they'll say that they're sorry that you just
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 6: don't have time.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 10: Oh, it's kind of funny, I guess if I, Oh,
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 10: we shot the book, have been waiting for my time.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 11: They only want forma hunt. They only want for a fish.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 11: They only want before.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 6: Oh, there's bot they come around Acra.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 11: They only want before night. They only want before the
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 11: same to print. They only won't before the oct up.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 6: By sound green maccas prints. They only want for fight.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 6: I know it took me a while to find leach
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 6: after they tagged out that they.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: But now I know.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 6: They're gone on and Smile.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 11: They're gone on Smile, shallow wolves, they're gone on.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 6: Stove smut.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 11: There's pups come around Everca.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 6: They're going on in smile family. They're gone on the stove,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 6: Santo cran Bocco. They're gone, snow waped.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 11: Down Samarineck spoery of gran So they're going.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 6: On the smile over my honey,