Latest / IB Unplugged / Bridging the Gap: Navigating the MYP–DP Transition w/ Paul La Rondie

Transcript

Bridging the Gap: Navigating the MYP–DP Transition w/ Paul La Rondie · IB Unplugged

• 0:00
  Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators
• 0:04
  that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
• 0:08
  experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
• 0:12
  Hi everybody.
• 0:13
  Welcome to this week's episode of IB Unplugged.
• 0:16
  We have an exciting episode where I get to put John in the hot seat,
• 0:20
  or he's joining the MYP coordinator at his school, where John and Paul
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  get to talk about the transition from MYP to DP.
• 0:28
  This is a subject the two of them have been thinking a lot about.
• 0:31
  If you're going to
• 0:32
  the global conference in The Hague this week,
• 0:34
  they're doing a pre-conference session on that.
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  And so this is really a topic that we felt like there are
• 0:40
  a lot of teachers that have challenges and a lot of coordinators
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  that are really working on this transition and getting it to be smooth.
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  So yeah, this is an exciting conversation today.
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  Yeah.
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  So this is pretty exciting for me actually, because I get to switch seats
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  and be kind of more in the interview I guess, or interviewe position.
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  And talk a little bit more about the transition from the MYP to the DP.
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  And of course, getting to work with my colleague Paul La Rondie,
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  is pretty amazing.
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  I've gotten to work with him for the last few years,
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  and I'd say we were relatively well as coordinators.
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  But, you know, Paul isn't just an MYP coordinator.
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  He's done a whole lot with the IB, both in DP and MYP.
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  From a DP side, he's a maths analysis and approaches teacher,
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  but he's also the principal moderator for that course.
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  He's written, one of the textbooks, on maths analysis and approaches.
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  He's also done a lot with the Association of Central European IB schools,
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  coordinating with middle years teachers and MYP coordinators there as well.
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  So he just brings tons of experience and it's fun
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  getting to work with him just because, you know, he kind of challenges me anyway.
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  And I think I challenge him as well.
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  But we're both open minded to the whole process.
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  And so we're excited to one, I guess, present this
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  at the global conference and do a workshop around this.
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  But two just getting to talk about it right now.
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  So we really appreciate the opportunity to kind of take an episode here of
• 1:57
  IB Unplugged and talk about that transition from the MYP into the DP.
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  Yeah.
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  So again,
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  hopefully you have a lot of questions and thoughts around this transition period.
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  And as John said, he'll be at the global conference.
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  I'll also be there.
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  John and I are hosting our first, live IB Unplugged session as well.
• 2:15
  We're joining with
• 2:18
  to talk about AI and digital assessments.
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  So if, if you're going to be there, please come say hi to us.
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  We'll be either at the Kognity booth at our session or just around.
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  So hope to see you there if you're joining.
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  But in the meantime, let's get on to transitions from my MYP to DP.
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  Hi Paul, welcome to IB Unplugged.
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  Thanks for joining us today.
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  Thanks a lot y'all.
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  Yeah obviously it's kind of funny because we work together.
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  Of course Paul is our MYP coordinator at Saint Logan International School
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  and I'm the DP coordinator here.
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  And so we thought we'd talk about the transition a little bit,
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  and how we facilitate that MYP to DP transition.
• 3:01
  And Paul, of course, just wanted to show off his green headphones.
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  So that's kind of the key thing we got going on there. Right?
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  They’re Topnotch.
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  Lucky I've got them because, they actually belong to my son.
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  He's gaming headphones.
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  I'm sure there's nobody that can empathize with that, right?
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  You know,
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  look, before we before we dive in, and obviously,
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  you know, we've worked together, but I got to say,
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  I don't know if I know this answer
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  as well as I probably should, given that we've worked together for so long.
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  But let's kind of get things kicked off and help people get to know you.
• 3:29
  Why education?
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  Why did you get into education in the first place, Paul?
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  Well, I kind of it wasn't really education.
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  I got into maths.
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  It was really the thing. I'm a maths teacher.
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  Yeah. Maths geek. Really love, love maths.
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  I kind of love the the wow moment that comes
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  when you're your teacher, when you're doing mathematics and, and
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  I guess I wanted other people to, to have the wow moment.
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  I think I'm still waiting for that.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  It's it's elusive but but, you know, it's true though.
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  I mean, I have kids in my, in my, high level classes that I just.
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  I've got to wait for that. I'm teaching them.
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  I'm teaching them something,
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  that I know, I know where we're going, and, like, just waiting for that moment.
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  And I really enjoy that side of the side of it.
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  So I think it was.
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  It was maths rather than education, just being able to give that, that
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  wow moment to people.
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  And then how did you get into the kind of IB space within there?
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  I guess there's a lot of wow moments in HR mathematics.
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  I guess that's part of it.
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  The IB, it was, it's the schools that I was at.
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  I, I kind of really fell fell for the,
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  for the program very early on, in my career and,
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  and tried to move to schools which,
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  which I felt would do the, the IB program
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  well. I started mainly in the diploma program, to be honest.
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  It was it was where I was a teacher.
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  And then I was the diploma coordinator.
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  So that's been my, you know, that was that was my initial path.
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  And then when I came to
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  to the international school, it was my chance to sort of
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  get into the Middle Years program, which I hadn't really experienced before.
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  Paul, we obviously we get to work together.
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  And I know that you wear multiple hats.
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  Obviously, you just spoke about maths and I know,
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  you know, in the introduction, we talked about how you,
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  our principal examiner for the Maths Analysis and Approaches course,
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  you're part of the curriculum review team.
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  So you do all sorts of things there as well as IB, MYP coordination.
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  So I guess thinking about all those parts, all those different hats that you,
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  that you wear, what would you say is the most rewarding part of your job?
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  Don't tell my head, but the, it's still the maths,
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  to be honest, I still I still love that side of things.
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  And, it's where I enjoy being in the classroom.
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  But, I, I've kind of adapted that to doing,
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  as you said, with, with the curriculum review work with the,
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  with the diploma program and so on,
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  and getting more involved in curriculum as I've gone through my career,
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  I guess that I'm starting to really, enjoy those sort of,
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  kind of bigger conversations, I guess the ones which are a little bit
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  more big idea looking from the balcony type of the type of things I I've started
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  to enjoy those a little bit more as well. As you literally do from your office,
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  which has a balcony that oversees what's going on at the school.
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  Yeah, exactly. Let's dive in here.
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  I'm really excited to hear about the way that you two work together.
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  So as we kind of go through this conversation, I would yeah,
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  I love to hear kind of both angles here of this transition
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  that we've heard from Kognity all of the time.
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  This kind of awkward space in between two fantastic curriculum that have been built
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  with this continuum in mind, but there's still growing
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  and transition pains that I think happened there.
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  So I think maybe before we do this, actually, Paul, since you sit in
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  both camps, you are teaching DP your, the coordinating MYP
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  from your opinion, where do you think some of the biggest work
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  has to be put in for the two of you as the two coordinators
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  to really make this transition feel comfortable for students?
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  Well, I think we've
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  talked about this a lot, Jonathan, with the idea of a of the narrative
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  that moves from from one from the MYP
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  into the into diploma program, as you see highlighted there itself,
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  Courtney, we, we you know, if there's there's this perceived chasm
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  between the two, you know, the diploma program is is
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  is is difficult and it's and and it's stressful and all of these sort of words
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  which, which are, very negative sounding and the MYP is, is,
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  clouds and rainbows and unicorns surrounding them in cotton wool.
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  It's more playful, particularly in a school like our own, where,
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  we don't do the E-assessments.
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  So we don't have those sort of terminal examinations at the end of grade 10,
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  we're relatively free and, and,
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  and I think that that's the it's trying to get the narrative right
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  for, for us as teachers, for us, as MYP coordinators, for us as,
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  students or parents, that, that that whole narrative,
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  I think, is the thing that is really important.
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  And it's something that we've really kind of tried to get our mind on.
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  John talks a lot about cognitive shifts.
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  And, you know, where maybe John, you tell me about those.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  I mean, just that idea of going from what power
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  comes with the language we choose to use when we talk about the programs.
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  I mean, just as Paul mentioned,
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  if we continually talk about one program as so stressful or,
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  you're never going to get any sleep or it's,
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  you know, all that stuff that really brings down
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  a negative connotation with the program itself.
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  And so, you know, little changes like, when students want to say,
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  I'm so stressed, let's just change that to I need a plan.
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  It's kind of the same thing, but it puts more action and it puts more like
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  I'm in charge of this as opposed to this is happening.
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  To me. And that's another one.
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  Yeah.
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  This is happening to me becomes this is happening for me.
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  And and just those small changes actually, I think make a big difference
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  with the way that our students might view the programs.
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  And then there's a lot of work just with regard to.
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  Yeah, that perception.
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  What what are each of these programs.
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  And I know both Paul and I will do lots of presentations,
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  whether they're to students or if they're to parents or our colleagues.
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  And we're always coming back to what's in common.
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  And it's, you know, it's the IB learner profile.
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  It's our approaches to teaching, it's our approaches
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  to learning, and really centering on the philosophy
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  and just making sure we know why are we educating in the first place.
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  So let's start there. It's not about doing exams.
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  It's not about getting great scores, that sort of thing that can be there.
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  But the key thing is, hey, we want to try to develop inquiring,
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  knowledgeable, caring young people, you know, that sort of thing.
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  And so we really try to focus on that, I guess. Yeah, I think that's true.
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  On the, you know, the parents, as you said, we took do presentations
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  to parents and they, they not along dutifully to that sort of message.
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  You know, it's you know,
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  we want our students to be caring and we want them to we want them to be.
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  It's a hard one to debate.
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  Yeah, yeah, it's like any one of those.
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  But then there's always this comes back to this.
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  Well, what about the grades, you know, and trying to, to, to,
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  to to kind of balance those two things I think is really key.
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  And I mean the expectations in MYP and DP are super different.
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  Of course, I know you were saying
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  you guys don't do the E-assessment, but when you're setting up
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  the the expectations in each program, how do they differ?
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  And is there a way that you ease into and evolve
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  the MYP expectations, or is it that you start off a bit
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  and maybe there's still the wrong word, but like softer for DP ones
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  and then ramp up the program. I'm going to go with like no. Yes.
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  And we're trying I mean, I think that I think that
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  that we
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  we're trying to get it right.
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  Basically it's something that we've worked on a lot in the last couple of years.
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  John and I just to try and sort, sort
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  that, sort of that sort of narrative out,
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  to, to move that perception away from the playfulness of MYP
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  and to the seriousness and distress fulness of diploma program.
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  And so there's, there's different little,
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  little different things that we've, we've tried to implement along the way.
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  And I'm sure we'll get into those, but, but, but, but it's, it's, it's
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  not a sort of an instant change and it's, it's, it's been it's been gradual.
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  So there's a, there's, there's things that we've, we've tried, there's things
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  that we still want to try, but we've got to make room for them to happen.
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  And it's not just me
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  and John sitting in a room deciding all of this stuff as well,
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  because we've got to bring the staff along with us and we've got to,
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  you know, we've got to remember that
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  there are students sitting on seats and and we've got,
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  you know, we've got to we've got to, get people into the school
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  and I've got, I've got a, the head and the
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  and the board and all of those sort of things.
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  So, so there's, there's a lot of, kind of parts of the equation.
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  So I think it's really fair. Yeah.
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  To talk about just the context that we're working within
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  and trying to make sure that things line up there.
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  And, and also, just as you mentioned, Paul, like, we're not standing here
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  or I guess talking here as though, like, hey, we've got it.
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  all right, come and listen to us, but rather understand the,
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  the challenge and the complexities that I think exist in that
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  that framing of the MYP to the DP, keeping the expectations the same.
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  And in know you know Paul and I, as you mentioned, we
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  we work quite a bit together and just trying to develop in these nuances.
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  Where are the little wins, where the small things that we can work on.
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  And I know one of the key things that you always mentioned,
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  Paul, is, you know, I want to keep the authenticity of the MYP.
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  I want to keep the right philosophy of this
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  and make sure that we're still focusing on inquiry based learning.
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  We want to focus on this sort of that lead that the MYP is all about,
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  and want to keep the authenticity there without just becoming.
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  Let's train so we can have some great DP exams.
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  Right?
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  And so I think both of us, when we, when we come to this, it's like,
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  how do we see those two expectations still being there?
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  Like, let's make sure we have the authenticity of the MYP program.
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  But at the same time, I'm going, well,
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  we need to ramp up some rigor and we need to be sure they're ready
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  because that that first step into the DP
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  for some students can be quite challenging.
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  It's a big step and so how can we minimize
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  that step while still maintaining the authenticity of the MYP.
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  And I think that's a that's a question that guides a lot of our work.
• 12:56
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• 12:56
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  Now back to the show.
• 13:36
  What do you think are some
• 13:37
  of those non-negotiables of the MYP that you're
• 13:41
  you won't concede to with the with DP prep or kind of pre DP?
• 13:47
  Well, I mean I you know
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  I believe in the program and and to be honest that those sort of things
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  are there. They're laid out already.
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  You know as John talks about the approach
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  is to teaching and the approaches to learning, the idea of concept
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  based teaching, the, the the inquiry based learning.
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  I mean, there's a those are absolutely key to the to the MYP program.
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  And we have to believe that those are beneficial
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  to a DP student as well, that that inquiry approach,
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  even when no, really, at the end of the day, they're sitting down
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  and they're answering these, these, these tough exams at the end.
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  Yeah.
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  So the inquiry,
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  I think the inquiry based is something that we concentrated on as a school.
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  And then the, the
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  introducing the rigor into, into the MYP program as well.
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  And it's and definitely there's always been this kind of like,
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  conflict between inquiry based
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  the open ended investigations and rigor
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  and and and and I think that's the
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  the non-negotiable to me is, is inquiry
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  and the ability to be able to build in rigor
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  either into the inquiry or in it
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  separately from that is is is the is the aim as well.
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  And then John, from your side, what do you think is
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  maybe one of the biggest hurdles to overcome that you feel like maybe
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  the students don't feel as prepared in this kind of way
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  for the DP, that you have to work the hardest.
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  I mean, a lot of it seems to shift.
• 15:19
  And actually, Paul does these, you know, he's a mathematician.
• 15:23
  He likes diagrams and that sort of stuff.
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  Let me put a mental model to this.
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  And I remember it was just a couple weeks ago,
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  put together this model of like, okay, here,
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  the main criteria that we're covering in the MYP.
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  And, you know, across each of the disciplines
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  there's effectively four main criteria.
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  And then it was like all of these three.
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  So in the maths example, correct me if I'm wrong, for a criterion
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  b c and D are kind of more skills concepts inquiry that sort of approach.
• 15:48
  Yeah.
• 15:48
  Communication pattern spotting and and and real life applications.
• 15:52
  Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thank you.
• 15:54
  And then you know criterion A was more like the knowledge and understanding bit.
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  And then it seemed like that sort of funnels into being kind of the main thing
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  when you show up in the DP is like, I've got to acquire a lot of knowledge.
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  And so we noticed that that was one of the bigger things when it comes to the DP
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  is just students recognizing, like what was effectively
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  almost 25% of their curriculum, I guess.
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  And MYP suddenly becomes a much bigger part of the DP.
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  And so it's those skills of like, how do I learn?
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  How do I acquire lots of knowledge quickly?
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  How do I what what is my independent study looking like?
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  What are my homework strategies and my skills?
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  How am I actually acquiring this knowledge?
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  And that we found I think was one of the bigger
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  gaps is just students recognizing, like there is a big amount of work
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  I got to do and I'm not sure I have the skills for it.
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  And so we needed to really reevaluate.
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  Like, where are we intentionally structuring
• 16:43
  how to learn, how to, you know, how to use your independent
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  study time, how to get feedback, why is that feedback useful?
• 16:50
  And so for I think from the DP side, it's just that big
• 16:52
  jumping in, learning all the stuff right away.
• 16:55
  And then I guess, you know, just following on from that, as you know,
• 16:58
  we kind of hold that coordinator's hat here
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  and we want to try to frame that narrative.
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  Now both of us get to teach as well.
• 17:04
  But we have to essentially communicate that from coordinators
• 17:08
  all the way to our teachers as well,
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  and make sure that they are aware of those expectations
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  and that the same message is going through
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  because we know that sometimes students might get the wrong message.
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  They they hear from this teacher, oh, this is what that's going to look like.
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  They hear from another teacher.
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  This is what it's going to look like instead.
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  And so part of our role,
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  I guess, is to really communicate that effectively
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  and make sure that our teachers are getting the same message across as well.
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  And I know, like I could talk a little bit from the DP side,
• 17:32
  but Paul, from your side, how do you kind of approach that I guess.
• 17:35
  Yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting because, you know, the types of,
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  when, when we, we're
• 17:40
  employing teachers year on year, we're, you know, we're taking it teachers then
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  some have
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  have no experience.
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  A lot of have, have DP experience and very few actually have MYP
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  experience, just of the nature of the size of these, subjects.
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  So, so people who are coming into the school with,
• 18:00
  with diploma program experiences and perhaps coming from schools that have
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  perhaps done things like, international GCSEs, in the, in the, in their middle
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  years, have a very different perception of, of of what that kind of looks like.
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  What, what, what the middle year should look like and what the diploma program,
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  the type of students who are arriving in diploma program are going to be like
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  the other side of that is, is that, a lot a lot of people have,
• 18:29
  the not a lot of people
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  already have this kind of MYP experience, and it's a very, very steep learning
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  curve to get to understanding all of that, that all the assessments and, the, the,
• 18:39
  the objectives behind each of the subjects and the, the way that this is the,
• 18:44
  the this is assessed and the rubrics that are used
• 18:47
  and so on, that's a know that's a, that's a, a steep learning curve.
• 18:52
  There.
• 18:53
  So, so that conversation is really important.
• 18:57
  And we kind of try to
• 18:59
  kind of develop good MYP teachers early on in the, in their, tenure
• 19:04
  at the school, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a tough it's a tough gig.
• 19:08
  Definitely.
• 19:09
  Last question on this kind of framing of the narrative in the school
• 19:13
  and with the teachers and students from the outside.
• 19:17
  I'm wondering, it's one of those things and where
• 19:21
  when you talk about a transition, it could also make it even worse.
• 19:26
  Like it could be the more that you talk with a student.
• 19:30
  I mean, like the more you talk about it being a transition
• 19:33
  rather than it happening organically.
• 19:35
  It could also create an even scarier,
• 19:39
  narrative of like, now there's the big jump between I mean,
• 19:44
  if you're thinking I come from the US, like going to high school,
• 19:48
  from middle school,
• 19:49
  there's this physical change of school that feels like a scarier transition
• 19:54
  than like ninth grade to 10th grade, where you're and it just happens.
• 19:58
  And I'm wondering how you guys balance that of it's important
• 20:02
  to recognize what's changing and what's happening.
• 20:05
  But also we don't want to make this into an even scarier situation.
• 20:09
  You're telling me I shouldn't just start my first session with them and go, right,
• 20:13
  no more fun. Sit down, learn stuff. Yeah,
• 20:16
  this is it.
• 20:17
  Well, I tell them they're not going to have any fun
• 20:19
  when they get to you, so it's fair enough, right? Perfect.
• 20:21
  So it sounds really healthy.
• 20:23
  Yeah. No, it's,
• 20:25
  There it is, there is. You're right.
• 20:27
  There is an inevitability of this move.
• 20:28
  You know, it's it's part of it's part
• 20:30
  of growing up in a sense, you know, that the, the
• 20:33
  you have to acknowledge that we have to acknowledge the change.
• 20:36
  There is there is a change.
• 20:37
  And we're not going to deny one exists.
• 20:41
  And and so but that does the,
• 20:43
  you know, we change we change the homework expectations.
• 20:46
  For example, moving from, you know, from MYP to diploma program
• 20:50
  that, that, you know, there there are changes like that,
• 20:53
  just as there are when they move from grade eight into grade nine, there's,
• 20:56
  there's, there's there's an acknowledgment of the different position that
• 20:59
  students are in.
• 21:01
  So, yeah, I think the first part,
• 21:02
  the answer to that is just acknowledging that it exists is part of it.
• 21:07
  But but then easing the transition is where,
• 21:09
  I guess what we're really talking about.
• 21:11
  Well, and I think, you know, some of the kids
• 21:12
  are actually quite excited about it too.
• 21:14
  They get excited about the idea of like, okay, now,
• 21:16
  now it's the DP and now I'm ready to take that next step,
• 21:19
  get a little bit more serious, narrow my choices.
• 21:21
  You think about university and that sort of thing.
• 21:23
  So I think there's an element to which they're excited about it.
• 21:26
  But you're absolutely right.
• 21:27
  You know, if we over exacerbate it, if we make it too big of a thing,
• 21:31
  then yeah, it has that negative consequence.
• 21:33
  Right. That negative side effect of
• 21:36
  kids being like, well, wait a second, am I, am I actually prepared or not?
• 21:38
  And, yeah, I think just even reflecting as you ask the question.
• 21:42
  Now, ultimately, we've had conversations with our parents at our school here
• 21:45
  who are asking exactly those questions, and probably because we do have
• 21:49
  such a well, to a certain extent, a difference between the two.
• 21:53
  And so they're constantly saying, well,
• 21:54
  is this actually preparing our students for the DP?
• 21:56
  Are they actually ready?
• 21:57
  How do we know.
• 21:58
  And and it was this enough
• 22:00
  rigor to get them ready for the classes and that sort of thing. So,
• 22:04
  yeah, actually that's a great question.
• 22:05
  I mean, we need to think that went through a bit more here, Paul.
• 22:07
  Maybe we're making too big of a deal out of it,
• 22:09
  and that's what's causing the big step.
• 22:10
  Yeah, but it is.
• 22:12
  It's brought upon us as well.
• 22:13
  So you mentioned that, you know, parents,
• 22:15
  you know, a big stakeholder in all of this.
• 22:17
  They want to know, right?
• 22:18
  They want to know what what what are you doing?
• 22:20
  What are you doing in the MYP that's helping these?
• 22:23
  My student when they get to the DP.
• 22:24
  And and if they perceive that it's not very much then then
• 22:29
  then then they're going to be concerned about concerned about that.
• 22:31
  But it's, it's yeah, it's
• 22:33
  it is an interesting interesting the way of thinking about it.
• 22:35
  Yeah.
• 22:36
  Well then let's let's reassure some of those, those fears
• 22:40
  and kind of the next part, dive into some of those MYP skills and concepts
• 22:44
  that are actually really preparing students for the DP classrooms.
• 22:48
  And I think especially in the subjects
• 22:50
  that have seen new syllabus changes, we do see even more continuity there.
• 22:54
  But could you yeah, talk about some of those skills
• 22:57
  that you really believe that the MYP is helping with the DP classrooms?
• 23:02
  Yeah, I think I can it is
• 23:05
  it's falling back upon those sort of learner profiles.
• 23:08
  And approaches to learning again, because I genuinely do feel that we,
• 23:13
  we can teach MYP
• 23:14
  students to be resilient and we can teach them to be self managers,
• 23:18
  and we can teach them to be able to to research
• 23:23
  well and reference well and have academic integrity and all of those things
• 23:26
  that the absolutely make a good diploma program student.
• 23:31
  They have to develop those skills within, within the MYP or whichever program
• 23:35
  they're arriving from.
• 23:36
  And and so having something like the personal project
• 23:40
  in grade ten where we're, where a student is, is learning
• 23:44
  how to do an extended piece of work and, and to have,
• 23:49
  to be able to, to, to, to research for that to,
• 23:53
  to to appreciate what approaches to learning are going to be useful
• 23:57
  in developing their, their products and learning their learning.
• 24:00
  So those are the those are the those are where those skills are developed.
• 24:05
  And and and so we have to yeah,
• 24:08
  we have to kind of kind of acknowledge
• 24:11
  that we do do some of this stuff already.
• 24:14
  And these independent resilient,
• 24:18
  self-aware, research able students,
• 24:21
  are leaving the MYP. Are you receiving them, John?
• 24:25
  Are you get are you getting these kids?
• 24:27
  Well, I was just going to say I think you do a great job,
• 24:30
  especially as you're guiding the personal project
• 24:33
  of signposting that stuff
• 24:34
  and just being like, hey, this is where you're can develop
• 24:36
  some that you are going to use in the diploma program.
• 24:38
  You develop some research skills that you're going to use here.
• 24:40
  And and I think this also kind of pulls back to our first segment around
• 24:44
  like how we are framing that narrative and how we're talking about it
• 24:47
  with teachers as well,
• 24:48
  and making sure that our teachers are signposting that too.
• 24:50
  And just being like this research skill, this ability to reference,
• 24:54
  this self-management skill that you're
• 24:56
  picking up now, you're going to see that in the DP.
• 24:58
  And so then I also think from a DP side, we've got a call back to it
• 25:02
  and just say, yeah,
• 25:03
  remember when you developed this thing
• 25:04
  while you're working through the personal project
• 25:06
  or when you did your collaboration type work?
• 25:08
  This is the skill and how it works here.
• 25:10
  So it's that very intentional, I think calling out and and sort of pulling
• 25:15
  from either program just to help the students recognizes continuity.
• 25:18
  And there's intention behind what we're doing in the MYP to help them
• 25:21
  be ready for the DP, because I think too often students might disconnect
• 25:25
  one course from the next or even one year from the next,
• 25:29
  so they like, well,
• 25:30
  I just learned those skills in science for grade eight,
• 25:32
  but now it's a completely different science
• 25:34
  in grade nine, it's like, no, we're we're spiraling this.
• 25:36
  We're we're bringing all this stuff up.
• 25:38
  You're gonna hit that again and again.
• 25:40
  And I think when you call that out for the student to recognize,
• 25:43
  then they have a better chance of of actually
• 25:45
  doing it in the diploma program as well.
• 25:47
  And then those skills that they develop in the MYP
• 25:49
  serve them really well in the DP as well.
• 25:51
  Yeah.
• 25:52
  And I think, I mean, the
• 25:53
  the other side of that is the other side away from those skills is the content.
• 25:57
  Obviously we've
• 25:58
  we that's one of the things I think the we're kind of in the middle of doing
• 26:02
  in the last couple of years as a school, we started to really take
• 26:05
  a look at our curriculum, the one that's taught in the MYP
• 26:08
  and to to to look at the sort of subject specific content that, that,
• 26:13
  that we're giving to the students and looking ahead and, and
• 26:18
  thinking of,
• 26:19
  we have ourselves we have our diploma program hats on and,
• 26:22
  and looking back and saying, okay, so to where is this, where are the gaps?
• 26:26
  What's the what's the stuff that I'm not teaching in, in, in the middle
• 26:30
  years program that would be useful for the, for the diploma program.
• 26:34
  And so
• 26:36
  it's been a big piece of work.
• 26:38
  I mean, the, the putting these curriculum maps together and,
• 26:42
  we're still in the sort of like we've got them.
• 26:43
  And now where we, we're, we're on our sort of gap analysis stage
• 26:48
  and, and thinking ahead and thinking, okay, so what are we not doing?
• 26:51
  You know, when we look at our DP results or when I look at my DP,
• 26:55
  students, what is it that the the missing what's what is it that they're missing
• 26:59
  and, and that, the kind of content gap analysis is where we're at really?
• 27:05
  Yeah, that's really interesting.
• 27:06
  So, is that an exercise that's being done DP and MYP together then,
• 27:12
  and a bit of like backwards design from where you need to be at the DP
• 27:17
  and then filling it in, because I guess you can choose the content in MYP.
• 27:21
  And is that now the way that you are really choosing the, the content?
• 27:27
  Yeah, yeah exactly that.
• 27:28
  And and you know,
• 27:29
  we we have, there are advantages and disadvantages of being a small school.
• 27:33
  But one of the big advantages is that a lot of teachers
• 27:36
  do kind of fall into those two camps of diploma program in middle years.
• 27:40
  And so,
• 27:42
  so it's
• 27:42
  not difficult to to put yourself in the position of a diploma program,
• 27:46
  teacher, when you're a diploma program teacher and just think, okay, so
• 27:49
  what is it that I want?
• 27:52
  But yeah, it's been a whole school approach has been throughout
• 27:55
  from for even from, primary years to through,
• 27:58
  through the through the middle years, thinking about the entire progression,
• 28:02
  and, and just trying to kind of join that up a little bit more.
• 28:06
  You know, we do.
• 28:07
  I'm not saying that the, the, the,
• 28:09
  the International Baccalaureate don't kind of help.
• 28:11
  They do. They do.
• 28:12
  They have thought about that as well clearly.
• 28:15
  But we've got to put that into our own context
• 28:17
  and that and the subjects that we have and the teachers we have.
• 28:20
  And when students arrive in our school, when they predominantly arrive,
• 28:25
  you know, that that's,
• 28:27
  you know, all of those sort of things have to be thrown into that mix where,
• 28:30
  where we're thinking about this student who,
• 28:33
  who's
• 28:33
  who's moving one, students moving from grade
• 28:37
  five up into grade 12, and another one's going from grade ten inches grade 12.
• 28:40
  And we've got to kind of kind of think, keep that in mind.
• 28:44
  Okay.
• 28:45
  My name is John Williams, I’m a IB diploma program
• 28:48
  coordinator at Records High School, Tallahassee, Florida.
• 28:52
  And I will say that, my teachers, especially my math and science teachers
• 28:57
  who love Kognity abilities, really transform the way they're able to teach
• 29:01
  to have the interactive online text.
• 29:04
  And I use text broadly, to help facilitate their teaching process.
• 29:10
  And it allows the kids to interact
• 29:12
  with the material at home, not just in the classroom.
• 29:15
  So it makes learning a 24 hour process.
• 29:20
  It's one of those things where, yeah, I think as Paul alluded to,
• 29:23
  the the IB has sort of planned this out, but I would highly recommend it
• 29:26
  for any coordinators out there listening right now.
• 29:28
  Is is such a useful exercise to do.
• 29:32
  And I would say year in and year out, we we've done it really in earnest
• 29:36
  this last year.
• 29:37
  I would say, you know,
• 29:38
  Paul and I really took a deep look at how we've been doing
• 29:41
  and what we want to improve on,
• 29:42
  and are we actually achieving the things we want and where
• 29:45
  where do we have control over that, and how can we shift things around?
• 29:48
  And even just going back through that as almost an exercise together,
• 29:51
  even if it was just a thought exercise, it helps so much in understanding
• 29:56
  the context, helping to frame it a little bit better for, for our students.
• 30:00
  And yeah, just part of that also comes down to the motivating students as well,
• 30:04
  because one of the bigger things when it comes to
• 30:06
  and I know we'll talk about it soon,
• 30:08
  but that transition process, how we like the mechanics, I guess,
• 30:11
  or the, the actual process of going
• 30:13
  from pre IB diploma program into diploma program, a lot of it
• 30:17
  comes down to students understanding, like, am I good at this and do I like it?
• 30:20
  And am I going to need it later on?
• 30:22
  And so they need they need a curriculum.
• 30:25
  They need some content that's in the MYP that helps them
• 30:27
  know, like, oh, I am actually pretty good at maths analysis type thinking,
• 30:32
  or I am actually pretty good at politics and that's kind of a direction
• 30:36
  I want to go.
• 30:36
  So we really had to think carefully about what are we actually putting
• 30:40
  in the content in MYP to, again, stay authentic to the MYP.
• 30:43
  But at the same time prepare students well enough
• 30:46
  so that they were making informed decisions
• 30:48
  when it came to selecting what they wanted to do for the diploma program.
• 30:50
  Yeah.
• 30:51
  And and I think that the, the signposting side of things,
• 30:54
  there is a really important part of it, the, the idea of,
• 30:58
  you know, that we're in we're, we're in the classroom.
• 31:00
  And as a maths teacher, I'm teaching a particular topic
• 31:03
  and, and I'm able to say this is analysis.
• 31:07
  This is the type of thing you would do if you chose the analysis course.
• 31:10
  This, this is preparation for that.
• 31:13
  If you liked this, then bank that.
• 31:15
  And remember, when you come to your decisions
• 31:16
  that this is the type of thing that you enjoyed.
• 31:20
  And I think that, you know, that that happens
• 31:23
  across the school in all in all subjects that, that or it's improving.
• 31:28
  That's the sort of focus that we're having of being able to,
• 31:32
  to, to help students to make that decision.
• 31:35
  The best decision they can make.
• 31:37
  Yeah, there's a fair amount of reflection in the diploma program.
• 31:40
  So I guess you're starting them young and, getting them
• 31:44
  ready to always be reflecting in MYP as well.
• 31:47
  Yeah.
• 31:48
  That's ABR: always be reflecting.
• 31:51
  That's what we say. And they love it.
• 31:52
  They love it.
• 31:53
  They can't get enough of it.
• 31:54
  Actually, every time they get the chance to reflect,
• 31:57
  they celebrate. It become a bit of a dirty word sometimes. Right?
• 31:59
  But that's, It's a dirty word.
• 32:01
  But but it's important. They go dancing through the courtyard.
• 32:05
  Guess what I did today? I got to reflect again.
• 32:07
  We made it. We made a decision this year as well, which,
• 32:13
  When was it? About four years ago.
• 32:14
  We we we had grade ten examinations.
• 32:17
  Examinations at the end of the MYP.
• 32:20
  And, we removed we removed them.
• 32:23
  And for the last few years we haven't, we haven't had them and we were relying,
• 32:27
  as John alluded to it previously, the on these sort of criteria,
• 32:31
  a style assessments as being the way of understanding whether you kind of really,
• 32:37
  had the knowledge and understanding required to be in the diploma program.
• 32:40
  But we've we've quickly realized there's not a massive revelation.
• 32:43
  I mean, I think we could have we it's kind of obvious in a way.
• 32:47
  But but you know, this this the idea of doing a grade ten examination
• 32:50
  is more than just content, but it is a lot to do with content.
• 32:54
  But it's about being able to recall that and mimic
• 32:58
  what's going to be happen when they get to the diploma program, of course.
• 33:01
  And, and so we had to have a conversation with our students,
• 33:06
  have a conversation with the parents, have a conversation
• 33:08
  with teachers about reintroducing the diploma program at the sorry,
• 33:11
  the grade ten exams to prepare people for the diploma program.
• 33:16
  We had a little bit of a,
• 33:18
  I think around the E-assessments as well
• 33:20
  and whether that was the right way to go or scrap it all and do IGCSEs.
• 33:25
  But but I think the, the, the I do genuinely believe
• 33:28
  in the middle years program and, and I and I like what we're able to do.
• 33:33
  And I'm happy to introduce a little bit of rigor and put in some,
• 33:36
  some great end exams as well,
• 33:39
  just to, to ease that transition.
• 33:42
  John didn't make me do it.
• 33:44
  I, I cannot make you do anything, Paul.
• 33:46
  Any other, I don't know where to go with that
• 33:50
  any other thoughts on
• 33:54
  any of the kind of like MYPs skills and concepts in DP classroom
• 33:59
  before we kind of move on to diving into that actual transition process?
• 34:04
  Well, one,
• 34:04
  I think that's really quite useful is this focus on conceptual learning.
• 34:08
  And I know we've been talking about this a lot as we talk about all the different
• 34:12
  curricula and the curriculum review, and even in our conversation,
• 34:16
  with regard to like how the IB curriculum is put together, the
• 34:19
  so much is now being focused on conceptual understanding and understanding.
• 34:23
  How knowledge you gain in this area can apply to all these others.
• 34:27
  And so you're just seeing so much more of that in the diploma
• 34:30
  program, with each new iteration of a different syllabus.
• 34:33
  And so I guess in that regard,
• 34:35
  I'm really thankful that in the MYP there's such a big focus on it.
• 34:38
  And so it's again that let's pull this and make sure
• 34:41
  that our DP students are aware that skill you've developed
• 34:45
  there is pertinent and it's absolutely useful here.
• 34:48
  And the way that the IB is going to assess your knowledge, you know,
• 34:52
  then maybe a third of it's going to be how well you can recall the information.
• 34:56
  Beyond that, it's how well can you apply it
• 34:58
  and how can you think of it in different concepts and, different contexts as well.
• 35:03
  So understanding this overarching concept that now applies all the way around it.
• 35:07
  And I think that ultimately gets to what the IB's aiming for
• 35:10
  with their theory of knowledge approach and the main mission itself.
• 35:13
  It's you got to be a deep thinker, somebody who thinks very critically
• 35:16
  about all this stuff.
• 35:17
  And I think the conceptual approach is a great way to, to achieve that.
• 35:22
  So just
• 35:23
  a brief moment on that with regard to when we develop
• 35:26
  that skill in the MYP, it's definitely necessary in the DP as well.
• 35:29
  All right.
• 35:30
  Let's dive into our last part here.
• 35:32
  The transition process.
• 35:34
  I think that this is probably something that looks really different
• 35:39
  in every school.
• 35:39
  I mean, every continuum school, every school that maybe just as the two
• 35:43
  that might be in the DP, some, like you said, are doing IGCSEs instead.
• 35:47
  But at least at your school and in your experience, can you talk a bit
• 35:50
  about the entry criteria and not actual who's going into the DP?
• 35:56
  How do you decide who's going into the DP?
• 35:59
  Yeah, I mean, we've constantly spoken about the entry criteria
• 36:03
  and what we are expecting from students as they come in.
• 36:05
  I guess in general, what we do now is we have like an application process.
• 36:08
  Students apply to the IB diploma program, as opposed to just
• 36:11
  being old enough to get in.
• 36:13
  And they write a letter of motivation and then they include
• 36:16
  their subject selections.
• 36:18
  They need to get a reference from their mentor tutor as well
• 36:21
  that says, yeah, they're ready.
• 36:22
  They're showing these particular skills.
• 36:24
  And then that's all wrapped up with their reports and how they've done so far.
• 36:29
  So it's a good evaluation of how are they as a learner.
• 36:32
  And then we have an interview as well.
• 36:34
  So I interview the students and talk to them about what they want
• 36:36
  from the diploma program and what subjects are taken,
• 36:38
  how that aligns with their long term goals.
• 36:40
  So we try to mimic what applying to university is going to be
• 36:44
  like when they apply to
• 36:45
  the IB diploma program, and just kind of get them used to that process.
• 36:49
  Not just for the preparation for university,
• 36:52
  but also to understand the the student as a learner.
• 36:55
  You know, Paul mentioned it earlier.
• 36:56
  We've got some students who have been with us since grade five,
• 36:59
  and then we've got some students who join us
• 37:00
  just in grade ten right before they're actually picking their subjects.
• 37:03
  So you really want to try to understand the learner.
• 37:06
  And I think that goes beyond what they might be able to show in a test score
• 37:10
  here, there, other way or anywhere else.
• 37:14
  Now the grade ten
• 37:15
  exams that Paul was just talking about, those can be useful.
• 37:18
  They help to inform like, hey, maybe actually not higher level biology.
• 37:22
  Maybe let's do something else.
• 37:24
  You know, some of those can help by by seeing the results that they do.
• 37:28
  But we don't have like the strict you have to earn this number in order
• 37:32
  to be accepted into the program.
• 37:33
  We really try to understand the student as a learner.
• 37:36
  And that ultimately comes down to their approach to learning skills.
• 37:38
  And how are they developing that
• 37:40
  IB learner profile and that Ivy approach to learning?
• 37:44
  And I think you could argue that you could definitely argue
• 37:47
  it and say, well, then they're not ready. They don't have the content knowledge.
• 37:50
  You got to have like minimum criteria to be able to enter a specific course,
• 37:54
  you know.
• 37:54
  But for us,
• 37:54
  I don't think we want to throw any particular
• 37:56
  we don't want to close the doors in front of our students right away.
• 37:59
  We want to understand what's motivating them.
• 38:00
  Why are they thinking this thing
• 38:02
  and what evidence are they drawing upon to make a good subject selection?
• 38:07
  And then.
• 38:07
  Yeah.
• 38:08
  Have they, have they done all the things they need to do
• 38:10
  to be prepared to, to move on to that next step?
• 38:12
  And that's an interview and that's talking about it
• 38:14
  in their paper, in their,
• 38:15
  in their personal statement, if you will, their essay to apply.
• 38:18
  So those things I think help to navigate it a little bit.
• 38:21
  I think the other important aspect to it is we appreciate
• 38:25
  and I don't think there's any school in the country
• 38:26
  in the world that's going to be able to say,
• 38:28
  you know, all of our students are going to go into the diploma program
• 38:31
  because we've prepared them so well.
• 38:32
  They're all going to get 45 points.
• 38:34
  And that's, you know, that's every single student.
• 38:37
  So it's that kind of understanding of the student, which is key.
• 38:41
  And realizing and helping them to understand
• 38:47
  their pathway that they've got
• 38:51
  and offering them options within those different pathways.
• 38:57
  You know,
• 38:59
  not every student is
• 39:02
  destined to be a diploma program student.
• 39:06
  There are other pathways that might be useful to them to go through.
• 39:10
  And it's a really, really important conversation that starts within the MYP.
• 39:15
  You have to be gentle with, particularly when
• 39:19
  you guys are concerned and parents are concerned.
• 39:21
  And it's a not easy conversations.
• 39:23
  And fortunately John has those more than I have.
• 39:27
  But it's an important part of that is,
• 39:30
  that kind of realizing of expectations when you do get to the diploma program.
• 39:34
  But that's part of the narrative that we started with. Right?
• 39:36
  Is part of what, you know, that whole of of thinking of things
• 39:40
  as being opportunities rather than rather than obstacles.
• 39:44
  And all of those are of a of a narrative parts that we've talked about.
• 39:47
  Make sense. I think another part of,
• 39:50
  the what will make you successful in the DP,
• 39:54
  a huge component of it is
• 39:55
  like you were talking about earlier, the subject selection and really
• 39:59
  making sure that the students are in the subjects that either
• 40:02
  they're really interested in, they've shown that they've,
• 40:05
  excelled in, in the MYP, maybe.
• 40:07
  Maybe not.
• 40:08
  How how much do you guide the subject choice
• 40:13
  to kind of help them get kicked off on the right foot in DP?
• 40:17
  We do a lot of introduction to the subjects as well.
• 40:20
  So we talk about one, the IB, the diploma program.
• 40:22
  We introduced that I guess in more, December time or so.
• 40:26
  And then we've got a whole but 5 or 6 weeks where subjects
• 40:31
  like heads of department can be talking about the subjects
• 40:33
  that are on offer in their particular departments.
• 40:35
  They really clarify what those subjects are.
• 40:38
  But I think so much of this also really comes back to, again,
• 40:40
  signposting in the classes that they're in the MYP.
• 40:44
  So even though they might be taking, you know,
• 40:45
  individuals and societies course and it's not specified as this is
• 40:48
  economics, history, global politics or psychology or whatever,
• 40:52
  but instead during that course they're constantly thinking about,
• 40:55
  hey, this style of, of teaching and learning that we're going through
• 40:59
  right now, this lends itself to more economics type of thinking,
• 41:01
  or this lends itself more to psychology or whatever it might be.
• 41:07
  And I guess
• 41:07
  that lends itself really well to the feedback that we use as well.
• 41:10
  So how are we communicating to a student that they are understanding
• 41:13
  the concepts, that they're understanding the content itself.
• 41:17
  And, and is that feedback helpful?
• 41:19
  Is it useful, the kind, you know, that sort of thing, as well as identifying gaps
• 41:22
  and what they need to improve on,
• 41:24
  because ultimately that feedback is I think what motivates a lot of students,
• 41:27
  you know, they'll come in, they'll talk with me
• 41:29
  about their subject selections, and sometimes they're not totally sure,
• 41:31
  but they'll say, well, I'm, you know, I'm good at this subject.
• 41:34
  So I guess I'm going to go on to it.
• 41:36
  And that can be a really good indicator that they should do it.
• 41:40
  But again, it makes us
• 41:41
  have to come back to was that feedback that you were giving accurate?
• 41:45
  Was it honest, reliable, that sort of thing too, and making sure that
• 41:49
  the students have heard the right things from their MYP teachers about that subject
• 41:52
  so that when they go on to select it in the diploma program, they are ready
• 41:56
  and they do have the right set of feedback to let them know they'll be successful
• 42:00
  or not.
• 42:00
  Yeah.
• 42:01
  No, I think that's there's a the you brought up a really key point there
• 42:03
  and it's, it's in my mind it's that difference between constructive
• 42:07
  and and helpful feedback.
• 42:10
  And upgrade a grade in the MYP.
• 42:15
  It could be argued it's easier
• 42:18
  to reach the higher echelons of the grades in the MYP
• 42:22
  because of the way that formative assessment is
• 42:25
  giving us the tools that we need for this one summative assessment,
• 42:29
  which is going to give me a grade and you do end up
• 42:33
  with students who perhaps are getting,
• 42:37
  a good MYP grade,
• 42:41
  and who then might have an unrealistic idea
• 42:46
  about how that particular grade transfers to a diploma program grade.
• 42:50
  So, for example, a student coming out with a level six, a grade six in the MYP
• 42:55
  maths, doesn't mean that they're in the DPs level six student.
• 42:59
  It means that they have developed these particular skills in the MYP program.
• 43:06
  That's a tough conversation to have.
• 43:08
  It's a tough thing for the students to understand
• 43:12
  because it should directly translate.
• 43:14
  And perhaps it's, you know, Mia culpa on this one.
• 43:16
  But but it isn't directly translating.
• 43:20
  And so that is part of the conversations
• 43:23
  that need to be had with the MYP students.
• 43:27
  Great.
• 43:28
  Well then I want to wrap up in this last piece, when I think about
• 43:31
  some of the things the takeaways from this conversation that I really like,
• 43:35
  I really like this idea of the curriculum mapping and the backwards
• 43:38
  design of DP to MYP, because you do have so much flexibility in the content
• 43:42
  there.
• 43:43
  I like that you're really spending a lot of active time
• 43:46
  on framing the narrative for students, parents, also for the teachers,
• 43:50
  making sure that MYP teachers feel like they're in a good place
• 43:53
  to not be throwing the kids in the deep end with DP.
• 43:59
  You've
• 43:59
  talked a lot about the concept based approaches of
• 44:02
  and skills that you can build in the MYP that help in DP.
• 44:06
  And I'm just wondering if there's any other pieces of advice
• 44:11
  or kind of really tangible actions that you feel like your school
• 44:14
  has been doing really well to help make this transition
• 44:19
  as seamless as it possibly could be.
• 44:23
  It helps if the MYP Program Coordinator
• 44:25
  and the DP Program Coordinator get on okay, and I think that's the
• 44:28
  I think, genuine, genuinely, it's it's useful.
• 44:31
  We have a lot of conversations.
• 44:35
  we share a common philosophy and that's developed over the years.
• 44:39
  And, and I think it's a really important part of, of of what we do.
• 44:43
  Yeah. Absolutely.
• 44:44
  Gotta have a good, gotta have a good working relationship
• 44:46
  between the coordinators and I guess just an openness to learn, openness to,
• 44:50
  you know, we don't have that necessarily. Right.
• 44:52
  Let's see what else can we work on. What else can we work on.
• 44:54
  And I think modeling the the IB learner profile of that sort of let's be open
• 44:58
  minded about it.
• 44:59
  I would just add to that little bit, have a good relationship
• 45:02
  with your coordinators and then be open minded.
• 45:04
  We got more stuff we can always work on. Great.
• 45:07
  Well, thank you so much, Paul, for joining us.
• 45:09
  Thanks, John, for, kind of switching hats here and,
• 45:12
  taking, answering a lot more questions than usual.
• 45:15
  I got to be in the hot seat a little bit. This was fun.
• 45:18
  Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
• 45:20
  That was great.
• 45:21
  IB Unplugged as a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
• 45:24
  and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
• 45:27
  Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
• 45:31
  If you'd like to submit a topic, request, or question, please do
• 45:34
  so on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
• 45:37
  Let's keep the conversation going
• 45:39
  and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
• 45:43
  See you next time.