Latest / Pod Save America / “OBAMAGATE!”

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“OBAMAGATE!” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, I talk to Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal about
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the Democrats' new economic relief bill and her new position
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: on the Biden-Sanders Healthcare Unity Task Force. But before that,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about Trump's decision to make this campaign about
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama, the results of the special election in California's
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: 25th district, and what the deal is with all the
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Democratic angst over Joe Biden's campaign. But first, check out
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: this week's Pod Save the World, where Tommy and Ben
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: explain how Trump's director of national intelligence is already hard
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: at work using the Flynn affair to punish his political enemies.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Then Patrick Radden Keefe, the host of Wind of Change,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: joins to talk about the CIA propaganda and how culture
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: became a weapon in the Cold War. If you haven't
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: yet listened to Wind of Change, go to Spotify. Check
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: it out now. Binge the whole series. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: It's great. It's dominating our house. It is amazing. On
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the Sonos at all times.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Also, check out this week's episode of Six Feet Apart
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: with Alex Wagner, which is all about sex in the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: time of COVID. Don't really need more of a plug
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: than that, do I? You can find the show wherever
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts by searching for Six Feet Apart. Finally,
• 1:38
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• 1:42
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• 1:47
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• 1:50
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• 2:08
  Speaker 1: If you can... please make a donation at crooked.com slash
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: coronavirus for a very good cause. All right, let's get
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: to the news. This week, as the coronavirus death toll
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: soared past 80,000 Americans and we hit depression levels of unemployment,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump turned much of his attention to the real
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: threat facing America, Barack Obama. After a weekend bender that
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: included more than 100 tweets that accused the former president
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: of unspecified, entirely fictional crimes that seemed to have something
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: to do with convicted criminal Michael Flynn, Trump was asked
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: by the Washington Post's Phil Rucker what in the fuck
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: he's talking about, and he said this.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Mr. President, in one of your Mother's Day tweets, you
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: appear to accuse President Obama of the biggest political crime
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: in American history by far.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Those were your words.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: What crime exactly are you accusing President Obama of committing,
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and do you believe the Justice Department should prosecute him?
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: The President Obamagate. It's been going on for a long time.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: It's been going on from before I even got elected,
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: and it's a disgrace that it happened. And if you
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: look at what's gone on, and if you look at
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: now all of this information that's being released, and from
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: what I understand, that's only the beginning. Some terrible things happened,
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: and it should never be allowed to happen in our
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: country again. And you'll be seeing what's going on over
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: the next over the coming weeks. But and I wish
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: you'd write honestly about it. But unfortunately, you choose not
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: to do so. Yeah, John, please.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: What is the crime exactly that you're accusing him of?
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: You know what the crime is. The crime is very
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: obvious to everybody. All you have to do is read
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: the newspapers except yours.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: So I just say my low key favorite part of
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: that is Phil Rucker starting by saying in one of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: your Mother's Day tweets. Happy Mother's Day, everyone. The former
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: president has committed a crime. So, Dan, two-part question for you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Can you explain what Obamagate is? And do you think
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Trump can explain what Obamagate is?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Well, we know the answer to the second question because
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: obviously he can't. I mean, I was trying to figure
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: out what the best pop culture version of Trump's answer
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: to that was. And I came up with two options.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: One is... Billy Madison doing the debate against Bradley Whitford
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: in the movie where the judge then says everyone is
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: now stupider for that. But I think the more recent
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: and relevant and less dating one is when Roman is
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: asked about that book he says he reads in the
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: last season of Succession.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: You know, the book.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Everyone knows what the book is about. So Trump has
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: no idea.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Didn't even bother to read past the hashtag, which is
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: sort of also emblematic of his pandemic response. But if
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: we were to try to explain what Obamagate is, it
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: boils down to Obama administration officials following all the right
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: protocols to find out why Trump's incoming national security advisor
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: was having conversations to undermine U.S. foreign policy with the
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Russians in weeks after the Russians had interfered in an
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: election on behalf of the incoming president. That is the
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: crime to which he is accusing Obama.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Adam Goldman in the New York
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Times has a great piece about this today. It's like
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: a pretty simple explainer if you want to go down
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, which and if you don't, that's fine, too,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: because it is a rabbit hole. But like just a
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: few things to remember to add to what you're saying,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: like Russia sabotages the election. We know that. on behalf
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: of trying to elect Donald Trump. So this is all fact.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: The Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee have concluded this
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: A finding put forward by also criminal Richard Burr.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a whole other story. So this happens. Obama,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: the Obama administration, puts sanctions on Russia. Russia does not
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: retaliate for the sanctions. Barack Obama talks to the intel
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: agencies and says, can you find out why? Russia didn't
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: retaliate when we just sanctioned them. So they look at
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: some of the calls because we monitor some of the
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: calls made by Russian officials. Look at those calls and
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: the ambassador, Russia's ambassador to the U.S. is talking with
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: an American and the American is saying, don't worry about
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: these sanctions. When Donald Trump takes office, we'll take the
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: sanctions away. And so then the question is, who was
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: that American? Because in the intel reports, the Americans are masked.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: So no one knows who the American is talking to
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the Russian ambassador promising sanctions relief and to undermine U.S.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: foreign policy. So there's a process you go through that
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: everyone admits, even Bill Barr, even Donald Trump, was legally followed.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: You uncover that the person talking to the Russian ambassador
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: is Michael Flynn. the incoming national security advisor. And then
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: after that, Barack Obama warns Donald Trump during the transition
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: when they meet, hey, just some advice. Don't hire this
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Michael Flynn guy. He's pretty sketchy. Donald Trump doesn't take
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the advice, hires Michael Flynn. It is reported that Michael
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Flynn was talking to the Russian ambassador, undermining U.S. foreign policy.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump says, okay, you're fired, Michael Flynn, because you
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: lied to Mike Pence about it. And Mike Pence told
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: the country on Meet the Press. And so because you lied,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: we're firing you. Mike Pence has asked about it. He
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: said he made the right decision in firing Michael Flynn.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: And now, now we are told by Donald Trump that
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: somehow Michael Flynn going down was an Obama plot to
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: bring down Donald Trump. It makes sense. Zero fucking sense.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And if any of these fucking people peddling this conspiracy
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: would talk to anyone outside of the Trump media bubble
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: for five fucking minutes, the whole thing would fall apart.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: The entire thing.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: A couple other points on this. One, quote unquote, unmasking.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: The reason why American citizens' information is kept private in
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: these intercepts is, Oftentimes, the Russian ambassador, in this case,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: someone who was being surveilled, could be having many conversations
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: with American citizens that are of no interest to the
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: federal government, to the intelligence agencies. And every once in
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: a while, you will see one. And this happens with
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: both suspected criminals, suspected terrorists, all kinds of intelligence targets,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: both at home and abroad. And they will see something
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: interesting and they will make a request to see who
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: that person is because the other party of the conversation
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: is relevant to the information they're trying to find out.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: That happens all the time. It's happened, I think Tommy
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: mentioned the other day, 18,000 times under Trump. It's a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: very common thing. This is an open-shut case of when
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: you would ever do it. It happens in gray areas
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: and I'm sure the intel community sometimes is overly aggressive
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: in unmasking. But this is no question. You have a
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Incoming government official explicitly telling the Russians who just interfered
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: in our election, do not worry about the sanctions. We're
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: going to fix it for you. That's one. Two, because
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: of the lying, Flynn was interviewed by the FBI. He
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: lied in that interview. And that is not– open for discussion.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: That is a well-known fact because he lied about what
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: he told the Russian ambassador.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: That's why Donald Trump fired him. He lied to the FBI.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: He knew. And then Michael Flynn admitted to that on
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: multiple occasions under oath. He pled guilty to this crime.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I lied to the FBI. I'm guilty twice. I lied
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: to the FBI.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: And it's not even mentioning a separate crime involving Michael
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Flynn where he was representing the Turkish government as a
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: foreign agent without registering and then lying on his forms
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and that he filed afterwards about his work on behalf
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: as a foreign lobbyist for the Turkish government, which he
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: also admitted to under oath as part of his cooperation
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: deal with the Mueller investigation. So he is guilty of
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: many crimes. He's admitted to all of them under oath.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: All the procedures were followed. And now he's on the
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: short list to return to the Trump administration in a
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: second term.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: The best part of the entrapment theory, they're saying, well,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: the FBI entrapped Michael Flynn to try to, it's a
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: perjury trap to try to get him to lie. The
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: FBI literally read words from the transcript of his call
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: with the Russian ambassador and said, do you remember this?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: We're giving you a couple chances. We don't want you
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to lie to us and get in trouble. Do you
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: remember these words from this transcript? He said, no, no,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I did not say that. I did not say that.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: And the other crazy thing about this is, again, here
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: we are down the rabbit hole. Some journalists like Marcy
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Wheeler have pointed this out, that these doofuses releasing a
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: fucking list of all the times that Michael Flynn was unmasked.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: have proven that most of the times that someone was
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: unmasked and it ended up being Michael Flynn talking to
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: foreign officials, it wasn't the Kislyak call because that happened
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: a little later. It was before that. So Michael Flynn
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: has raised all kinds of alarms with a whole bunch
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of other conversations before the Kislyak thing.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Just as one more point on Michael Flynn, which is
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: it's– now remember, he will probably– if Donald Trump is reelected,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: he will probably work in the government again.
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Could be Secretary of Defense, could be National Security Advisor.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: He'll probably be on the campaign trail.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so let's put aside that he is an
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: admitted criminal, right? So that should be– that's one disqualifying
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: factor for serving in the presidential administration. The other one
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: is he's a particularly dumb criminal. He– Do you remember
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: what his job was when he was in the Obama administration?
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: The head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. So of all
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the people in the world who should have known that
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the Russian ambassador's calls were being surveilled would be Michael Flynn.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yet he still had the call and still lied about it.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, here's the Obama scandal. Why did we hire
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Michael Flynn in the first place? What the fuck? That
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: was not a good one right there. I mean, we
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: fired him.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: He was a career military official. But we did fire him.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So points to Obama.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And we thought points to Trump for firing him. But apparently,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you know, now we're in fucking Looneyville. So Obama's approval
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: rating is sitting at around 60% right now. He is
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: the most popular living president, one of the most popular
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: public figures in the country. Is there any kind of
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: strategy here on Trump's part, or is he just losing
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: his fucking mind? This morning, he actually called on Senate
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Judiciary Chairman Lindsey Graham to make Obama come testify before
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: the Senate, which Lindsey Graham has rejected. And then said,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: if both presidents want to come testify about their thoughts
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: about each other, They're more than welcome, but I don't
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: think that's going to really help the country that much.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know something has to be a terrible
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: fucking idea for Donald Trump to suggest it and Lindsey
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Graham to reject it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, publicly. Yeah, no, things have gotten bad.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Like if Donald Trump was like Lindsey Graham run out
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: into traffic, Lindsey Graham would do that. So this is
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: obviously a terrible idea. Is there a strategy? Of course not.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: There is never a strategy for the things that Trump does.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: That's not... That is not how he operates. That does
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: not mean– like this is born of a desperation of
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: the political situation in which he finds himself right now
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and his just massive insecurity complex when it comes to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama. But just because there's not a strategy for
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: why Trump does things does not mean there are not
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: strategic consequences for the things he does. And like we
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: too often discuss Trump on one of two polls. One
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: is– He's a fucking moron who's always doing stupid things.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: And the other one is he's this strategic political mastermind
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: who has some sort of magic who figured out to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: win the hardest election ever. And it's much more complicated
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: than that, like all things. This is a bad political
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: strategy for the polling reasons you mentioned. And we can
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: get to a few others in a second. But it's
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: not a terrible PR strategy in the short term, which
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: is Trump. wants the press to cover something other than
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: his massively incompetent failure to respond to the pandemic and
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the ensuing economic crisis. And he knows one way to
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: do that is to go light a fire over here.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And so he has done that. And even if the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: coverage is not good for Trump, like that New York
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Times story you mentioned is terrible, it is coverage of
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: something else. And so in that sense, like there is like,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: there is instinctual, this is the instinctual PR part of
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Trump's brain has him doing this distraction ploy that he
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: does a lot.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Here's why I think that doesn't work because like you said,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: we're in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Um, you know,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: 30 million people don't have jobs right now. Um, I
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: would not say the response to the pandemic is going smoothly. Um,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: And like Tommy and I were just talking about this
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: during impeachment. Our hope was that, you know, wall to wall,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: 24 seven hearings broadcast on television would move a lot
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of voters to care about impeachment. That did not really happen.
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Much to our chagrin. That was a moment of relative
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: peace and prosperity in the country. And because a lot
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: of people, when you'd ask them, when you talk to
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: them in focus groups, they'd say, yeah, either I think
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Trump's guilty because I'm a Democrat and partisan or someone
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: who thinks Trump is fucking nuts. Or I love Trump.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I think Trump is fine. But most of them would say, well,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I care about my health care. I care about my job.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I care about my wages. I don't know that I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: care that much about impeachment. So now imagine that feeling
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a fucking pandemic when all these
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: people are out of work. And you turn to your
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: federal government and the president is screaming about some vague
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: conspiracy that the last president did. And he's yelling about
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama and he's not talking about the pandemic and
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: he's not talking about how to put people back to work. Like,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it seems like a fucking political loser to me. I mean,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: there are reasons to be very alarmed by this, which
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: we're going to go into. But from a political standpoint,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I just I don't I can't get why it helps
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: him except with his base.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And his problem is not his base. Right, to the
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: extent there's been erosion.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Obviously the base gets excited about this. Obviously. But the
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: base was never going to leave him.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: There is no evidence that he's losing his base or
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: his base is not as fired up as they otherwise
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: would be. So he has a base political play to
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: try to solve a problem that's existing in the middle
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: of the electorate. Where he has suffered and where he
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: has to do the most work is between the 43%
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: he has and the 47% to 48% he's going to
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: need to win in these battleground states.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: That is.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And this does nothing for that. And I think to
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: your point, he's leading with his chin in two ways, right?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: One is he is focusing on something other than the
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: thing people care the most about and think he's not
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: doing a good job on, right? It would sort of
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: be like, and this is even less severe, but it
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: would be like if Barack Obama was focused on a
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: bunch of sort of like random things in the middle
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: of the economic crisis in 2009. And we actually even–
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: we suffered politically because we– for a lot of people,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: we did not connect healthcare to the economic crisis. So
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: people thought Barack Obama was doing this other thing instead
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: of the thing they cared most about, which was their jobs.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Honestly, imagine if during the economic crisis, at the height
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of the economic crisis, Barack Obama was screaming about how
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: John McCain needed to be prosecuted for something he said
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: during the campaign.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Like that would be a political disaster. So–
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: So that's point one. Trump is focusing on the wrong thing,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: which is theoretically a political mistake. And two is Barack
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Obama's numbers are at 60% with the overall public. But
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that's when you include Trump's base, which has Obama in
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the single digits in some cases. I have seen private
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: polling from a number of different places that looks at
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama's polling among the up for grabs universe, the
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: persuadable voters, and his numbers are in the 70s. He
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: is particularly popular among the people who will decide this election.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: And so in that sense, Trump is absolutely leading with
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: his chin politically. But leading with your chin politically is
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: only bad if someone punches you in the fucking jaw.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: And that's the question for Democrats is how do they
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: make Trump pay for this, right? And it's not just
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: enough to make fun of him for being a conspiracy theorist.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: It's not just enough to continue focusing on the pandemic.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: You have to tie– Trump focusing on all these absurd
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: things with the thing he is not focusing on, right?
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: This is about Trump trying to punish his enemies and
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: exercise his personal grudges instead of helping other people. There's
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a way to tie it to the Trump first America
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: last message that we have talked about on a couple occasions.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And if you do that, you like Democrats and Biden
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: have the capacity to make him pay for this.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. I mean, one concern I
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: have now is how the non-Trump media is handling this
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: concern is putting it mildly. You know, on one hand,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: there was a fantastic Washington Post piece on Tuesday by
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Toulouse Olarania that read, quote, Since Sunday, Trump has tweeted
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: more often about alleged crimes by his perceived opponents than
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: he has about the pandemic ravaging the country with mass
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: death and unemployment and called it, quote, a familiar political tactic.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: That's what the Washington Post labeled this. So that is,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: to me, the model of how you talk about this
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: and report on this. On the other hand. We have
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: outlets like Axios that tweeted, quote, Joe Biden's presence on
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the list, because Joe Biden was on the unmasking list
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: of people who asked for these to be unmasked because
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: he can, because he was the vice president and that
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: was his job. Joe Biden's presence on the list could
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: turn it into an election year issue, though the document
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: itself does not show any evidence of wrongdoing. And George
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Stephanopoulos asked Biden multiple questions about Trump's Flynn conspiracy on
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Good Morning America this week. Here's part of Joe Biden's response.
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: Can you imagine any other president of the United States saying,
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: Focusing on this at the moment when the country is
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: just absolutely concerned about their health, the health of their children,
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: the health of their families, the health of their. I mean,
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: this is that we have an economic crisis. We have
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: a health crisis.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: This is all about diverting attention. Focus on what's in
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: front of us. Get us out of this, Mr. President.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: So Dan, it seems like, would you, let's talk about
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: the media a second. First, I want to talk about Biden.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Would you say that Biden's response there is sort of
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: in line with how you're suggesting the Democrats take this on?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. And I think it's the right message. I
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: actually thought that that was Biden's best interview in a
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: very long time. I thought he was very strong and
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: very passionate and has sort of begun to settle on
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: a Trump narrative. And you see it in him focusing
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: on himself and sort of the marginalia of American life
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: and not what is affecting people's lives. And so I
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: think that is like, I thought that was very good
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: and the right thing to do. Like interviews is not enough, right?
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: It's going to like, this is going to have to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: become a context of paid communications going forward. But yeah,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I thought, I thought Biden was good in that. I
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: think it's the right thing to do.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: On the media side, is this inevitable that a lot
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: of reporters and editors are going to fall for this?
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: And is there anything we can or should do?
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yes and no.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, then we will continue to scream into
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the void about these reporters learning zero lessons from 2016.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: It like that.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Was a particularly glib answer that I do stand by.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: But the problem is not like there is going to
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: be plenty of great articles that put in context the
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: absurdity of this.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we just, like I said, Washington Post, exemplary
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: for calling it a political tactic and just basically reporting
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: it for what it is. I thought Adam Goldman at
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the New York Times did a great job by just
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: simply laying out the facts of the case so you
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: know how ridiculous the conspiracy is. And, you know, I've
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: heard from some reporters, too, who think this is completely
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: fucking ridiculous. So I do want to say that many
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: reporters seem to have learned lessons from 2016. My concern is,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: as usual... like, you know, the usual suspects that we
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: always talk about. And plus, this gets filtered through to
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the networks and their broadcasts, right, to editors who are
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: writing headlines. I saw a fucking horrific LA Times piece
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: about this that just basically, like, bought into Trump's framing. Like,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: it does worry me a lot.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it absolutely should. And the challenge here is, I think, like,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: when we talk about the lessons 2016, like, There are many.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: There are many of them for the media and ourselves included,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: everyone else involved. But one of the ones that I
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: think a lot of media have not yet wrestled with
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: is they are very focused on the accuracy and fairness
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: of the story they write. And some of them will
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: be very accurate and very fair. Some of them will
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: be less so. It's going to be on a scale
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: because it involves a lot of people. But I think
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: too many of them do not think about how the
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: things they write are weaponized in our modern social media environment.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Like that's where headlines matter a ton, right? Like there's
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: a Politico story that is on its face. Fine. I think,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: but the headline is like Obama administration officials on involved
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: in unmasking, right? That headline, like exponentially more people will
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: read that headline in their social media feed than will
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: ever read the story. And so the headlines do not
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: get sufficient scrutiny and you have to recognize that, you know,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: it's all the ones that quote Trump, um, saying a falsehood, right? Trump,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: pandemic from Wuhan lab, right? Which is Trump did say
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: that in a normal world, you could put that because
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: people would be picking up in their newspaper and most
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: of them would read the story, but that's not how
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: the world works anymore. And so this is going to
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: get completely distorted. It's going to go through the fun
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: house mirror of all of this. The question is, what
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: do Democrats do about in the short term? What do
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: we do on the long term? And that question usually,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the short term question usually revolves around, can the We
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: work the refs as effectively as Republicans work the refs.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: And I believe the answer to that is no.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Why do you think no on that?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Because Adam Serwer of The Atlantic had a very good
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: thread on this. It's something that I spent a lot
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: of time about in my book, which is it's a
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: fundamental thing the right has understood for a long time,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: which is it is true that most, not all, but
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: most reporters and decision makers are more liberal than the
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: average Republican politician or voter. And they are very sensitive
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: to criticism of liberal bias. And so attack from the
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: right about their coverage is a reason for self-examination about
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: whether they are giving in to their liberal bias. And
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: an attack from the left is a proof point that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: they are not giving in to their liberal bias. So
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: like you see this all the time in some of
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the reporting at the New York Times in 2016 and
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: beyond is the critiques from the right get you a
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: meeting with the editor. The critiques from the left get
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: you uh, nothing.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: And there's just like, we, as we have to understand
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: that this is a fundamental fact of journalism in this
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: day and age, it does not apply to everyone. There
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: are some who have been very, very good about this.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And I think the post, while not perfect, but in
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: such a stress imagination has been more resistant to giving
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: into the impulses of the right than a lot of
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: other media outlets. It has, but it's, there is a
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: question of, are we treating the symptoms or are we
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: treating the disease? of the conservative advantage in media. And
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: working reporters, I think, in sort of yelling about it,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: is just dealing with the symptoms and not trying to
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: cure the disease, which is why my big impetus is
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: always on building up progressive media that is not dependent
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: on the same economic model and same cultural institutions that
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: traditional journalism is.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: What I would say to reporters, editors, headline writers, producers,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: because it's all of them, it's not just reporters. Sometimes
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: it's mostly the other people who are writing headlines and
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: chyrons on television. Like, this is much bigger than partisanship,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: what's happening right now. And when Donald Trump attacks the press,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: when he attacks the freedom of the press, reporters stand
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: up for their rights and for the rights of reporters everywhere.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And they don't see fighting back as partisan at all.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: They think that fighting back against attacks on the press
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: is the right thing to do. And I agree with them.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: It is the right thing to do. So how is
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: that different than an attack on the rule of law,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: an attack on democracy itself, which is what's happening right
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: now with what Trump is doing? It is not about
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: like Democrats versus Republicans on this. It is much bigger.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: And they seem to recognize that when it comes to
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: his attacks on press freedoms. All I ask is that
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: they recognize that when it comes to attacks on the
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: rule of law and democracy itself as well. Like I
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: just that that's what I would say, because the last
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: thing we'll talk about on this is like this isn't,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Trump is not just fucking riding solo on
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the train to crazy town here. He's got he's got
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: a whole cast of characters with him. He's got every
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: right wing lunatic from Fox to the Federalist. He's got
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Bill Barr, you know, running an investigation into all this
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: nonsense at the Justice Department. He's got fucking former Twitter
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: troll turned DNI head Rick Grinnell giving Republican senators a
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: list of senior Obama officials, including Biden, about this unmasking bullshit.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And now he's got Republican senators like Rand Paul demanding
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Senate hearings and making the same wild accusations about Obama. Like,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: what is your level of concern about the consequences of
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Trump and the Republicans using the full power of government
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and law enforcement to go after their political enemies?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I am... deeply concerned about it. And I'm concerned about
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: it in the here and now. And I'm incredibly concerned
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: about what happens if Trump wins this election. Because just
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: think about this. We are six months from the election.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: And in the last couple of weeks here, Trump's incredibly
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: partisan attorney general has reached his hand into the normally
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: independent decision-making process among career prosecutors and dropped charges against
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Trump's longtime political advisor, Roger Stone, has undone a guilty
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: plea from Trump's national security advisor. and released Paul Manafort,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Trump's campaign manager, from jail, even though he met none
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: of the tests for the low-risk prisoners who were being
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: let out of prison to avoid the spread of coronavirus.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: And you have taken a- It is May of the
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: election year. What the fuck do you think happens in
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: May of 2021 when Trump never has to face the
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: voters again? And so it is deeply, deeply concerning.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: In the middle of a pandemic and historic recession, by
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: the way, that is the other backdrop to this. Trump's
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: fucking disregard for basic laws, democracy, everything else is terrifying
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: in a normal time, at a time where there's you know,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: double digit unemployment and a disease, a virus ravaging the country.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: And everyone is fucking on edge anyway, to have a
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: president who can punish his enemies or his critics and
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: protect his loyalists is fucking terrifying. It is terrifying.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Do you remember when it's, it's not an accident. This
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: is happening now either. Do you remember when, I guess
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: it was 2004 when both Bush and Kerry were in
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Iowa and those guys robbed all the banks.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I don't remember that.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Wow. Maybe I made that up. Maybe that's a plot
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: of a movie. Either way, basically he's using attention on
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: something else. We could also do the Die Hard with
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: a vengeance version of this with the scavenger hunt.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: You got a lot of analogies today.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I know. Well, we had an extra hour to record today,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: so I'm really– I didn't modulate my caffeine intake appropriately
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: for this. But he's getting away with this because people
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: are focused on other things. And there is the element
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: of– slowly raising the temperature of the water with the
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: frog in the pot, because in and of themselves, any
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: one of these things individually, absent all the things that
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: came prior with Trump's creeping authoritarianism and attack on the
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: rule of law, would be the greatest scandals in political history.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: The attorney general forced the Department of Justice against the
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: wishes of career prosecutors to drop the charges against a
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: man who had pled guilty to a crime. And because
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that man happened to be a close advisor of the president.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Like that, that is what happened. That like, that makes
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of what happened in Watergate look like jaywalking,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: but we're just moving on.
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Because people can't leave their homes. 50. We got right.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: We're all trying to fucking survive a pandemic.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: No.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not great, Dan. Uh, so we, uh, So
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: before we talk about the 2020 election, I just want
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: to really quickly talk about Tuesday's special congressional election in
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the California 25th. Republican Mike Garcia defeated Democratic State Assemblywoman
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Christy Smith to serve out the remainder of former Congresswoman
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Katie Hill's term, which ends in January. That also means, though,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: that Garcia and Smith will face off again in November
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: to determine who will represent the district for the next
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: full two year term in the House. They're still counting
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: ballots since most of them are mailed in. But on
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Wednesday afternoon, Garcia had a 12 point lead over Christy Smith,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: who did concede the race. Dan, why do you think
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: this happened and how big of a deal is it?
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Why it happened is a great question. And I can
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: take a glass half full or a glass half empty question.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: approach to this?
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: You know, after what we just talked about, let's do
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: glass half full for now.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Okay. Let's do glass half full. This is a, um,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Mike Garcia, the Republican candidate was a perfect fit for
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: the district. Um, did not, uh, did not have a
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: voting record that could be attacked. It was a fighter pilot.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Not an incumbent. Yeah. Not attached to the Republican party
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: in a serious way yet.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: So he had, uh, so great candidate, um, low turnout,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: special election in a non-battleground state in the middle of
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: a pandemic suggests that perhaps we shouldn't draw too many
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: conclusions about what it means for national politics. And plus,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: as we will talk about in a second, there was
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: also an election in Wisconsin on the same day where
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: even though the Democrat lost the race, they outperformed partisan
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: expectations for the district. So the Wisconsin result belies the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: idea that there's something that Garcia's win as part of
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: some sort of national trend in Trump's direction.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Now, yeah, so I think the concerning part, I'll just
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: now I'll go glass half empty, even though that's usually
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: not my thing. The concerning part is like, you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: in sort of what you just talked about is the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: recognition that we didn't have sort of the surge of
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: voting in this district that both allowed Hillary Clinton to
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: to sort of win this district in 2016 and Katie
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Hill win this district in 2018. Now you could say, well,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: there was presidential turnout for Clinton. There was like record
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: high turnout in the midterm for Katie Hill. But like it's,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: it seems like the people specifically who didn't turn out
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: in this district were sort of non-white working class Democrats
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: who live in the LA County part of the district.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: And it was sort of a, a road test of
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: what a mostly mail-in election will look like. Does it
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: give you some concern, as we head towards the fall,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: about Democrats' ability to organize voters, especially voters who don't
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: always turn out, in the middle of a pandemic in
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: a mostly mail-in election?
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, it gives me great concern. And that's why I
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: tend toward, like, I don't know whether I'm half full,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: half empty, two-thirds empty, whatever the right way to think
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: about it is, but is... I think Democrats would be
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: unwise to ignore the result here because, yes, we have
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: this result in Wisconsin earlier this week and then the
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: amazing result that happened in the state Supreme Court race
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: last month. But that should also not give us too
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: much comfort because what happened in California in 25 is
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: proof that it is very hard to turn out low
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: propensity voters in a vote-by-mail election in particularly in places
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: where vote by mail is not part of the political culture, right?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: And so if you think that's hard in California, which
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: has offered vote by mail as an option for a
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: couple cycles now, think how hard that's going to be
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania, where they're doing that for the first time, Michigan,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: where it's newer, North Carolina, all these places where, like,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: this is a real challenge. And even though we were able,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Ben Wickler and the Wisconsin Democratic Party proved it could
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: be done, they have the best organization in the entire country.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of, and Wisconsin has a, has
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: a much more ingrained culture of civic participation historically has
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: very high turnout. And so like there are real challenges
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: here and we're going to have to build tremendous organizations
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: in order to do that. Cause the only way we're
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: getting a 270 is by getting a lot of low
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: propensity voters in battleground States or vote by mail for
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: the first time, depending on what their in-person options are.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: So What happened in California in 25 is not predictive
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: of what is going to happen in November 2020, but
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: it is a warning sign that we got a lot
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: of work to do if we're going to be able
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: to succeed in the new environment in which we find ourselves.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And to end on a hopeful note, it's also
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: proof that organizing matters and what you do in the
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: course of this election matters. Everyone should go fucking learn
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: from Ben Wickler and the Wisconsin Democratic Party who were
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: able to organize an entire state to do mostly a
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: mail-in election just a couple weeks before that Supreme Court race,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and they were able to do it. And we need
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: to have that capacity that Ben has shown and Wisconsin
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: has shown in every single swing state, whether it's for
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: the presidential, for the Senate, for down-ballot races across the country.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: And that's going to require a ton of help, and
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: it's going to require a ton of people getting involved
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and being organized and it's doable, but we've got to
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: fucking do it. I mean, it was, it was, it
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: was tough to get people excited or interested in this
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: race in the 25th. We had Christy Smith on, we
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: tweeted about it a ton. We talked about it on
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the pod. It is just, it is very, it was
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: very hard to get people involved and excited. And it
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: should be a fucking warning sign for Democrats that like,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: we have to do the work. It doesn't matter how
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: unpopular it Trump gets. It doesn't matter how much he
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: fucks up this response. We have to do the work.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And that's the message that I took from it.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, obviously, easier to get people
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: excited in a presidential race that everyone will know is coming.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: But we have zero margin for error. And I've been
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: thinking about this a lot recently as we were sort
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: of dunking on Trump for having this stupid attack on
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Obama and doing all those things. We as Democrats have
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: to understand that the Republican... Electoral college and structural advantages
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: are such that Trump can do everything wrong and still
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: win a narrow electoral college margin.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Like last time.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: We have zero margin for error here. And so, yes,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: it'll be a very different situation than a low turnout
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: special in the middle of a pandemic. But it still
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: means we can't leave no votes on the ground because
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: we're going to need every one of them if we're
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: going to win.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about 2020. On Wednesday, Joe Biden announced his
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: selections for six unity task forces on climate change, criminal
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: justice reform, economy, education, health care and immigration. According to
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: the Biden campaign, the task forces will, quote, meet in
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: advance of the Democratic National Convention to make recommendations to
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: the DNC platform committee and provide recommendations to Biden himself.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Each task force is co-chaired by one representative chosen by
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: the Biden campaign and one from Bernie Sanders' former campaign.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: This was part of Bernie's endorsement announcement. If you'll remember
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: a few notable appointments, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Secretary of
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: State John Kerry will co-chair the Climate Change Task Force.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: The Health Care Task Force will be co-chaired by our
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: guest today, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal and former Obama Surgeon General
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Vivek Murthy. It also includes our Crooked Media pal, America
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Dissected host Abdul El-Sayed. Dan, what was your reaction to
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: the announcement and to the groups?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: This is a very well-executed piece of business by Biden
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: and Bernie. These are the people you would want getting AOC,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: of course, most notably to be in charge of the
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: climate change one. I will note that it really is
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: sort of funny that AOC's lot in life is to
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: work on climate issues with 70-year-old men from Massachusetts. So
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I think always bringing the party together is a very
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: precarious piece of business. You've got a lot of people
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: on both sides, frankly, rooting for failure on this. You've
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: got people who are still angry at Bernie for 2016.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: You've got people on the left who are very distrustworthy
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: of Biden. And And the way this rolled out was
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: with all the right people and very well done. I
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: think it is a credit to both sides that they
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: were able to do this without any real public bumps
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: in the road yet. And so I think kudos.
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: And there's some serious people from the progressive movement on
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: these policy councils, not just AOC, like Varshini Parkesh from
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: the Sunrise Movement. Stephanie Kelton is one of Bernie's economic folks.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: These are serious progressive activists and progressive leaders on this. And,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: you know, you'll hear from my conversation with Congresswoman Jayapal, but,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: you know, everyone seems to be really excited about it.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: And they're all sort of going into this in a
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: really good faith way, hoping to come out with some
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: sort of exciting policy ideas. Obviously, this can have a
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: policy benefit for Biden. Do you think it can also
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: have a political benefit? Like, can it actually help him
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: with younger progressives who might still be skeptical of his candidacy?
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, if you are an organizer, I was
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: going to say if you're an organizer having a conversation
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: at the door, but if you're an organizer having a
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: conversation on Zoom with a Bernie voter who is skeptical
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: of Biden, particularly because in climate change is their main issue,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: then being able to say that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is working
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: on climate change with the Biden campaign is a very
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: persuasive piece of information that Biden is welcoming to their
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: views and that there is an ability to push him
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: either now or over time, in a way that you
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: want more. So yes, I think a policy working group
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: is not going to move all the voters. It's not
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: going to be a huge deal. But I do think
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: it creates an entry point to a lot of folks
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: on the left who have policy-based skepticism of Biden.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: And there is some research that points to that as well.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: NextGen did a study on young voter attitudes a couple
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: weeks ago. And they talked to Bernie supporters who were
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: less enthusiastic about Joe Biden. And they did find that
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: just clearly stating, not sort of overdoing or over-exaggerating Biden's
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: progressive credentials, but basically by saying, you know, Joe Biden,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: while he hasn't always been with us, you know, he's
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: listening to progressive leaders, he's working with them, and he
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: has adopted some progressive policies. Here's his agenda. Actually moved
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: them towards Biden and made them feel a lot better.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And it was introducing new information to these voters that
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: they had never heard before. So some of this, you know,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: now look, credit to the Biden campaign for doing this
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: because there also is risk here, right? Like if some
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: of these progressive ideas don't get adopted and some of
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: these people on these task forces start complaining, like that's
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: a risk for the Biden campaign, right? There's also a risk,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: by the way, on the other side, the RNC already
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: attacked these unity task forces for like Biden moving too
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: far to the left. He's got fucking, I saw that
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: like donors, Democratic donors were already like, what are you doing?
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: You're moving too far to the left on this already,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: which is probably a signal that he's doing something right.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: But still, it's not without risk to do this. And
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: so I do think the Biden campaign gets a lot
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: of credit for putting these together and being so open
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to them, just as the progressives who have joined these
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: task forces get a lot of credit for sort of
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: coming to the table and working in good faith. All right,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: let's talk about how the party's feeling about 2020. I
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: don't know if you've noticed this, Dan, but there are
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: quite a few Democrats out there offering an unlimited supply
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: of absolutely free and very public advice to the Biden campaign.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And many of them are in a mild but, you know,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: constant state of panic about November. You know, I'm sure
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that the Biden campaign is absolutely thrilled to get this
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: advice that they did not seem to solicit in any way.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: You can you can tell that from their tweets. And
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they were especially tickled when, quote, more than
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: two dozen donors, advisers, activists and party strategists talked to
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: The New York Times as they did for a Wednesday
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: piece on Democratic worrying and said that the Biden campaign, quote,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: is exhibiting some of the same difficulties that prove troublesome
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: in the primary. Slow decision making processes and multiple power
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: centers across Mr. Biden's sprawling political network. generational differences between
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: some longtime Biden advisors and younger operatives, inadequate staffing, and
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: a tendency to be reactive in the face of controversy.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: The Biden folks will, of course, say the former vice
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: president has held a steady lead over Trump, which is
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: now about four and a half points nationally and between
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: about two to three points in some of the key
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: battleground states. Obviously, Democrats will always bare their souls to
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: political reporters, just as sure as the sun comes up.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: But would you categorize this New York Times story and
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: some of the concerns you've heard as healthy worries or
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: problematic panic? Let's rank it here.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: I do think you gave an A-plus intro to a
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: segment of the podcast where we're probably going to offer
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: advice to the Biden campaign.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Believe me, I was fully self-aware of what was about
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: to happen.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of hard to say, which is.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Everyone like worrying is fine and everyone should be worried.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Not specifically because of something the Biden campaign has or
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: hasn't done yet, but because this is the most important
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: election in history. The literal fate of the planet and
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: democracy are on the line. And Trump is, has a
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: ton of money and a propaganda network and already exhibit
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: a willingness to break laws to win the election. So yeah,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: like there's reason to worry. I think, How that worry
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: manifests itself is, in some cases, the advice has been constructive.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: In some cases, it has not been. In some cases,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: the advice has been great. In some cases, the advice
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: has been bad. But I think this is not to
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: say I think the Biden campaign is doing everything right
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: and that there is no changes need to be made.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Of course, that is not the case. There's never been
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: a campaign that did everything right, whether it's Our campaign
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: in 08, our campaign in 12, any of them, right?
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: But I do think we have to give them a
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: little space to build up to the general election. And
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: don't grade them for what they're doing right now and
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: panic about it. Let's see where they are in a month.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Because the transition from a primary to a general is
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: really hard. You are doing massive hiring. You are scaling up.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: You're trying to preserve the culture and the processes that
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: put you in a place to win to begin with
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: while adding a whole bunch of new people, many of
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: whom you have never met, many of whom worked very
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: hard to defeat their new boss. You are... Like a
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: primary and general are very different, particularly in a communications capacity,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: like what your strategies are, who you reach, what like
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: your audience is. You've just done a two years worth
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: of polling on Democratic voters who now you have to
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: do like you have to learn about who your target
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: voters are. And so it's really hard to do anyway.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Biden campaign is doing this in a pandemic. They have
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: a brand new campaign manager. who basically, I think, got
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: to go to one meeting at the headquarters and hasn't
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: gotten to be in the same room with her candidate
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: or her staff since then. And they are doing a
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: lot of things. I know for a fact, having talked
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: to them, they're doing a lot of things that people
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: are already suggesting they should be doing. Now, does that
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: mean that they're doing it as fast as they can
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: be or as fast as they should be? We're going
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to find that out soon. And so I think worrying,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: as with all things, everyone should be worried. And, but
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: panic is like, it's not time to panic yet.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Panic is never good. Like the advice to panic is bad. Yeah.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: You always say this, that worry about everything, panic about nothing.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: That's where, that's where I am. That's where I am now.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: And I would just say, like, I have worked with
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Jen O'Malley Dillon for forever. She and I worked in...
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about this this morning. We worked together
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: in the 2002 cycle, the 2004 cycle, the 2008 cycle,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: the 2010 cycle, the 2012 cycle. And so we've done
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: a gazillion campaigns together and she would be my number
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: one draft pick to run a campaign. And she would
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: especially be my number one draft pick to run a
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: campaign in a situation where you had to try to
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: figure out how to do organizing in a world where
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: most of it will take place online. She's got a
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: huge task in front of her, a lot of impediments,
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: but before you decide to layer a verdict on the campaign,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: you've got to give it a little bit of time
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: to ramp up to the general. And then let's see
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: what they've built for the general and what their strategy is.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: There have been some promising signs, I think, that we
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: should give them as much credit for as people have
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: been dinging them for stuff they haven't done yet.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of the concern and advice has been
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: focused on their digital strategy. Our good friends David Axelrod,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: David Plouffe, Liz Smith, all published op-eds in The New
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: York Times, sort of urging the Biden campaign to up
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: their digital game and increase Biden's visibility. Why do you
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: think everyone's so focused on the digital strategy? And what
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: advice do you think has been good?
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: I think everyone's focused on it because we've all convinced
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: ourselves that that's why Trump won in 2016. And it
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: is the most visible manifestation for political junkies of how
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: campaigns operate, right? Like we all live on Twitter. And
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: if you spent the 2020 Democratic primary on Twitter, all
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: you saw was Biden getting dunked on 24-7 by everyone else, right?
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: You know, Obviously, Bernie Sanders had this massive digital operation.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren did a bunch of smart things. Buttigieg was everywhere.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris did a bunch– like all these candidates were
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: doing all these things and you didn't see Biden doing it. Now,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Biden still won two out of every three Democratic primary votes.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: So that is– it's what we all care about because
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: it's what we all see. It also was definitely a
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: weaker part of his campaign in the primary. And it
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: matters more in a general– and it certainly matters more
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: in a general in a pandemic.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: And it matters more because in a primary, it's easier
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: to reach Democratic voters who are more activists anyway. More
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: activist people vote in a Democratic primary. And in a
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: general election, you're trying to reach folks who don't necessarily
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: always turn out or pay close attention to the news.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: which means that it's sort of, you need more, you
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: need to have a better digital strategy to actually reach
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: those voters where they are.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's right. You can, a Rachel Maddow interview,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: a Pod Save America interview, just to pick something out
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: of a hat, being a good source of the New
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: York Times are all phenomenal ways to reach Democratic primary voters.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: They are like, these are people who are deciding to
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: engage very actively in the political process. In a general election,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: you're trying, as you pointed out, you're trying to reach
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: people who do not consume that political media at anywhere
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: near the level, if at all. And that's a much
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: harder task. You have to figure out who those audiences are,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: go figure out how to get in front of them.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: And you can't just do it by doing a series
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: of interviews from your campaign headquarters or your basement or
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: wherever else. It's a much more complicated piece of business.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: And so they have to build it up. They are
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: massively behind Trump on that on a whole host of measures.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: And they got work to do there. I think by
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: all indications from what they have told me, there was
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: a big story in the Post over the weekend about
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: some of their hiring, is they're moving on it. Will
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: they be able to move fast enough to build the
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: operation they need? That's the question. But it's too early
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: to have the answer to that.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: So the other big concern that's out there is that
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Biden hasn't been able to leave his house because of
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: the pandemic. Jen, who you just talked about, Amalie Dillon,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: she dismissed some of the complaints about this to the
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Associated Press. She said, quote, Voters don't give a shit
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: about where he's filming from. What they care about is
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: what he's saying and how we connect with them. What
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: did you think about that?
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I think that there is definitely this obsession within the
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: context of a lot of this advice culture about Biden
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: only filming from this one room in the basement, which
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: I think is where it is, or we've just decided
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: it's the basement.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: We've just called it the basement.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just to be progenitive.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: But from this one room. And I think Jen is
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: right that no one gives a shit whether he's doing
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: it from his basement, his kitchen, in his yard, because
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: the only people who know he does 10 interviews in
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: a row from his basement are the people in politics
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: who watch 10 interviews. This is the thing we always
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: forget is you do 10 different interviews not to reach
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: the same people 10 times. It gives you 10 opportunities
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: to reach different people. And so Many people have only
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: seen Biden with that bookshelf behind him once, if at all.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: So yes, she is correct about that. Separate point is
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: if Trump is out in the country campaigning, like visiting factories,
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: going to some sort of quasi socially distanced rally, and
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Biden can only speak directly to a camera from his home,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: that's a huge advantage to Trump. Biden is also, and
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: we should be just, for all the people, free advice,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: I know this because my parents live in Delaware, not
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: far from Biden's TV studio, that Biden is abiding by
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: the stay at home order in Delaware.
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: It would not be appropriate or good behavior or anything
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: that we would applaud for him to violate that and
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: be like, you know what? Sorry, Governor Carney, I'm going campaigning.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Like when that order is lifted, the question will be,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: what does he do that gets sort of the mix
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: of images and energy that puts him on par with
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: what Trump gets or closer to what Trump gets? But
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: like right now, it's not a solvable problem. Yes, he
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: does some filming from his backyard now. That looks very nice.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: But I don't think that's ultimately particularly consequential. The bigger
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: thing is when can he get out there? And that
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: is not something that he or his campaign controls right now.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Last sort of meta question about this. Like how do
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: you think Jen– and the Biden campaign should deal with
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: all of this unsolicited advice that will come from Democrats
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: that will come from us. Like what, what did we
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: do in 2008? Obviously it was an environment where Twitter
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: hadn't taken off yet. So that helped. Um, but like what,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: what were some of the lessons? Cause I didn't feel
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: any of this shit, but I'm sure you did in 2008.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: You know, we were really like one of the reasons
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: that Obama, uh, David Plouffe and David Axelrod were so
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: keen on having the campaign in Chicago was we only
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: hung out with each other. We weren't going to DC
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: cocktail parties or even going to a bar and running
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: into a bunch of reporters or our friends who worked
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: on the Hill or the Clinton campaign who would tell
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: us what a terrible job we were doing or just
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: spit conventional wisdom in our face. And One of the
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: truths of Twitter now is you can't escape it, right?
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: There's nowhere you can move where you're not going to
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: get that all the time. The only thing I would say,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: and this is not really specific to Biden as it
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: is to every campaign at any level, is one, if
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: there's good advice, take it, right? If there's bad advice,
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: ignore it. Only you know what your strategy is. And
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: there are ideas offered that ladder up to your theory
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: of the case of how you win. And that stuff
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: is good, right? A lot of it is based in
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: an alternative theory of the case that is not related
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: to yours. But the bigger thing is don't spend a
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: lot of effort trying to win the conversation right now.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Just try to win the election, right? That's a big
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: thing you see campaigns do. And we fell victim of
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: this in 2012 a couple of times. And I'm sure
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: 2008 too is like, you want to, like it, it
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: is personally painful when people you respect suggest publicly, privately, publicly,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: I guess, primarily, but That you're not doing as good
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: a job as you could be doing. Like that is painful.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: And you know and believe you're doing a better job
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: than they think you are because they don't know all
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: these things you're doing. So it's like we need to
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: go out and put on a dog and pony show
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: to show we're doing a good job. And there is
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: some value in that for– dealing with like, for me, well,
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: I was even going to say, well, they're all related
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: with donors, right? With potential endorsers.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Which is very closely connected with the media narrative.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all related. And we certainly do that sometimes,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: but ultimately you're sort of better off putting your head down,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: doing your job and being able to show results a
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: month from now or two months from now than in
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: like trying to convince everyone that you were right and
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: they're wrong. Yeah.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: And I would say like, on the advice giver side, right?
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: It's not, I mean, we've talked about like sort of
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: democratic strategists giving advice and we give advice, but like,
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: we also live in a culture where voters have become
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: pundits and basically everyone will be giving advice. And I
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: do think all of us who will continue to give
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: advice to the campaign, criticize the campaign, do whatever, like
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: we have to decide whether we want to be pundits
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: or organizers in this, in this race. And like, And
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: you have to have to decide, like, is it more
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: important to be right about the Biden campaign or is
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: it more important to defeat Donald Trump? Because like we
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: can sit around and criticize them all day long and
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: say what they're doing is wrong and some of what
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: they're going to do is going to be wrong. Right.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: And they're going to deserve some of this criticism. But
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: we can focus on that all the time. And then
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: if Joe Biden loses, we can sit around and say, oh, yeah,
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: we were all right. Or we can be like. This
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: the outcome of this election is just as much on
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: us as it is on Joe Biden. Like we have
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: a responsibility to affect the outcome. here, not just by
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: giving advice to the Biden campaign, which they may or
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: may not listen to, but organizing voters, getting people excited,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: like all the stuff that, you know, David Plouffe talks
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: about all the time, sharing content, Um, you know, promoting
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's policies, talking about why Donald Trump is bad,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: talking about why the stakes of the election are important,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: finding new ways to reach voters in the middle of
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: the pandemic. Like that is a responsibility that all of
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: us have just as much as Joe Biden has a
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: responsibility to run a good campaign. Like everything is on
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: the fucking line right now. The whole country's on the line.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: So like it is on each one of us to
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: like do whatever we can to to help this man
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: win the presidency.
• 59:54
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: And that goes far beyond just giving him advice and
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: criticizing him on Twitter, which is okay. But like, just
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: remember what the main goal is here.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is like, sometimes it's okay to put down
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: the pen and pick up an oar and start rowing
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: this damn boat.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: But it's also like Barack Obama would say that like,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: there are.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Degrees of this, right? Like, like we're obviously, this is
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: our job. We, Do a podcast. And so we talk
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: about the campaign. So there will be advice in there
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: and thoughts and critiques. And some of it will be
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: terribly wrong. And hopefully some of it will be right.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: But people are– I was thinking about some of the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: response online to Pluff and Axe's op-ed in the New
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: York Times to the Biden campaign. And there was a
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: lot of anger that they wrote the op-ed. And I
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: can– like look, if I was on the– We are
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: 100% biased towards Pluff and Axe. Neither of us would
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: be anywhere in our career without them, and they're two
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: of the smartest people we've ever known. I want all
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: the advice they'll give me on anything. If I was
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: buying a car, I'd want Pluff and Axe's advice. Maybe
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: not Axe's, but definitely Pluff's.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 6: The.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: I think it was the day before that op-ed came out,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: we were all part of a fundraiser that David Plouffe
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: helped host and moderate that raised a million dollars for
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: the Biden campaign. So you can do both, right? You
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: can offer advice and be constructive. Your worry can be
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: channeled in multiple ways, but channeling anxiety into activism is
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: going to be the healthiest and most productive way to
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: navigate this very treacherous and very painful election cycle.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: Well, it goes back to 2016 for you and I, right?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Like what I have regrets about in 2016 mostly is
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: that we focused probably too much on punditry and like
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: prediction of what was going to happen and maybe not
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: enough on what should happen and what to do to
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: make that happen, you know? And I, and that's why
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: like everyone go to vote, save America, sign up. Like
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: we are going to have plenty of opportunities to, for
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: people to contribute to hopefully a Joe Biden victory, but
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: it is going to require a ton of work and
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: worry is good because worry you can channel into action.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Panic is not good because panic just makes you freak
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: out and not do anything. And so, you know, we,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: we were not going to talk about bedwetting again, but
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: part of the whole bedwetting thing is like, it doesn't
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: do much good to freak out over a poll. And
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: to talk to people about it. You will freak out
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: about polls. I will certainly freak out about polls. But
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: the answer when you see a poll that's bad or
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: when you hear some bad news about the campaign is
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: to call up a few more fucking people. Right. Reach
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: out to a few more of your friends. Try to
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: get a few more people registered. Like we've just got
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: to get into this rhythm of when there is bad news,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: when there is criticism. that it is then channeled into
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: concrete action and not all of us just like waiting
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: for the Biden campaign to do something right, right? Because
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: like we can only have so much control over that.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of control over what we do
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: and how we organize. So go to votesaveamerica.com and sign
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: up and we'll have some great stuff soon that we'll
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: be rolling out. When we come back, I will talk
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: to Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. I'm joined now by the co-chair
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, the National Health Policy Chair
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: for Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign, and the U.S. Representative for
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Washington's 7th District, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. Thanks for joining us.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 6: Thank you. It's so great to be with you.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: So I want to start with the HEROES Act, which
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: is the $ 3 trillion stimulus bill Nancy Pelosi introduced this week.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: You have been trying to incorporate something called the Paycheck
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Guarantee Act into this bill. Yeah. but so far haven't
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: had any luck. Could you explain to people what the
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Paycheck Guarantee Act is?
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 6: So the Paycheck Guarantee Act essentially says we have to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: stop mass unemployment, we have to keep paychecks in people's pockets,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: and we have to help businesses be able to not
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 6: shutter through this crisis. And so the federal government would
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 6: actually guarantee the paychecks of people up to a salary
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 6: cap of 90,000 in my proposal. And businesses would just
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 6: get that through a three-month grant initially based on whatever
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 6: their revenue loss is. So if a business is operating partially,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 6: but they've got a 70% revenue loss, there would be
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 6: a 70% grant to cover payroll and benefits up to 90,000
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: and to cover a 25% operating cost. John, this is
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 6: something that would go directly from the IRS to the business.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: So very streamlined, very efficient.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: So we don't have to deal with the banks like
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: we're dealing with right now. Exactly.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 6: No winners and losers, right? Because a bank isn't going
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 6: to decide based on their relationship with a business, whether
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 6: or not you're going to be able to have access
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: to some money, which may or may not be forgivable
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: and has all kinds of things that you can't meet
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 6: in terms of really making it work for your business.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: So we've seen a tremendous failure of the PPP program.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 6: It was very good ideas. But I would liken this
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 6: a little bit to what we did with airlines in
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 6: CARES 1. In the airlines package, we had money that
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 6: went straight from the federal government to the airline to
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 6: pay for paychecks, benefits. And of course, if we do that,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 6: we don't kick 35 million, a projected 35 million people
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 6: off of their health care when they lose their jobs.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 6: And we don't have to do expensive COBRA subsidies to
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 6: cover that health care. So at the end of the day,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 6: we'd also make it retroactive, by the way, so that
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 6: we could recover paychecks. So people who had been laid
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 6: off after March 1st due to the pandemic would be
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 6: able to come back on to their paychecks and it
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 6: would be guaranteed. It would stimulate demand because, you know,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 6: if you know you're getting your paycheck and you know
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 6: you're not going on to the unemployment system, which, by
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 6: the way, is overwhelmed with the number of claims that
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 6: we're dealing with, you literally are in a place where
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: you're not gonna, you don't know if you can put
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 6: food on the table, you don't know if you can
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 6: make your rent or mortgage payment. So it stimulates consumer
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 6: demand at the same time. Simple idea, most countries around
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 6: the world in Europe have already implemented it, but also
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 6: South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia have all put this in place
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: to stop mass unemployment, to stop people from going onto
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 6: the unemployment insurance system, to keep the productive relationship between
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 6: workers and their employers in place and to allow businesses
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: to actually weather the crisis and be ready to go
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 6: back once it's time.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: So it sounds like a great idea. What are the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: reasons that democratic leadership has given you for why they
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: did not include it in this bill?
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: You know, it's all over the place. I would say that,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: you know, Most of it has to do with how
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 6: you think about the cost of this. I have gotten,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: you know, when you don't have legislative text, you can't
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 6: get a cost estimate on the bill. And legislative text
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 6: doesn't get written unless leadership prioritizes the legislative text. So
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 6: that has been one challenge. But I didn't let that
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 6: stop me. I went ahead and did a full white paper.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 6: I got Janet Yellen, the former Federal Reserve Chair on board.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 6: I got Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winning economist on board.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 6: I got Mark Zandi, the chief economist at Moody's on board.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 6: I got the entire spectrum of the Democratic caucus on
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 6: board from conservative members, frontline members on board with the idea.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 6: And I had Zandi, who's been really great on this,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 6: and nobody would call him.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, we used to quote him
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: all the time in 2008 on the campaign because he
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: was like, he had advised Republicans before.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 6: He has. He's advised McCain. But, you know, he also,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 6: I mean, he is a very well-respected economist. And I
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 6: wanted to have, I had some estimates from Some other
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 6: more liberal leaning economists and groups about the cost of
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 6: this but I wanted to have somebody who was respected
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: on both sides Do an estimate for me and so
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 6: he estimated the cost of the proposal We went back
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 6: and forth, you know on a number of different pieces
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 6: and his estimate is that the entire package is about
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 6: a trillion bucks for a 36 million workers, but then
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 6: when you look at the fact that in the heroes
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 6: Act we are expanding unemployment insurance for everybody That is
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 6: costed at a significant amount. It's it's over 300 billion
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 6: 350 billion probably so if you include if you if
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 6: you Understand that unemployment insurance cost will go down because
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 6: of this program You automatically knock about 300 billion off
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 6: of that trillion then on top of that you look
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 6: at COBRA subsidies, which, again, we're doing in the HEROES Act.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 6: That knocks off about $ 250 billion because you don't have
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 6: to do COBRA subsidies if you're doing this, and this is, frankly,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 6: far cheaper. Now we're down to under $ 500 billion. There's
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: sort of a half-loaf measure called the ERTC, the Employee
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 6: Retention Tax Credit that's been put into the HEROES Act.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 6: It was in CARES I, it's been expanded. I will
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 6: tell you very few businesses and certainly small and medium
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: sized businesses have trouble using these tax credits to get
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 6: money back because you got to get accountants, there are
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 6: lots of restrictions. But that program, Zandi estimated is about
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 6: 350 billion. You knock that off, now you're down to
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 6: 150 billion. You're not pushing people onto Medicaid. You're actually
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 6: bringing taxes in for state and local governments when people
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 6: get their paychecks and they continue to pay their benefits.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 6: You're doing work for pensions. You don't allow for unions
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 6: to die because all of a sudden they've got nobody
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 6: in jobs. And so membership goes down. So there's all
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 6: kinds of benefits that ultimately, I think if this were
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 6: to be put in, you could even take the stimulus checks.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 6: We're doing another round of 1200 bucks for a stimulus
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 6: check to a huge number of people you could cut
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 6: that number or you can take the entire amount of
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 6: stimulus checks, but you could target it to the people
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: at the bottom of the scale so that there are
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 6: still workers who may be getting paychecks, but 40% of
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 6: people who have lost their jobs, according to Jay Powell's
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: testimony two days ago, earn under $ 40, 000. So they still
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 6: may need some assistance and you could target our safety
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 6: net systems and other stimulus checks and rent and mortgage relief,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: those kinds of things to people who desperately need it,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 6: whether or not they have a paycheck. So it would
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 6: be a much more targeted approach to how we deal
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 6: with this. And I actually think the cost argument makes
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 6: no sense because every economist that I've talked to says,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 6: this is actually cheaper, not just in the moment, but
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: also down the road because it helps businesses to continue
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 6: to make it. And it puts our economy on a
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 6: quicker recovery track and it stimulates demand for all of
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 6: the things that people might buy if they had a
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: paycheck coming in.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I did hear some liberal economists say, OK, well,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: if we have this expanded unemployment insurance where people, average
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: workers are still making, you know, maybe 100 percent of
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: their wages through unemployment insurance plus COBRA. And if employers
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: are furloughing employees, it's not totally severing the relationship. So
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: maybe expanded unemployment plus COBRA is effectively the same thing
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: as this. What do you and The other argument is,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: and maybe that's easier because we already have an employment
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: system set up and COBRA set up so you wouldn't
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: have to set up something new. What do you think
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: about that argument?
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 6: You've hit on one of the big tensions for why
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 6: it's so challenging to get a new idea into the mix, right?
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 6: Because people feel this tension between, and we felt it
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 6: during the first several CARES Act packages, you know, let's
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 6: do something immediately that responds.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: We felt it during the Recovery Act. That was the
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: whole problem.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 6: And we should learn from the, you know, we should learn.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: I know, believe me.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 6: And I do think that there's a difference in stages too.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 6: When you have to respond immediately, to a crisis. So
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 6: I put the first three CARES packages into that category.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 6: We had to respond immediately. You use whatever systems you can.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 6: You expand unemployment insurance. This is not about UI versus
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 6: a paycheck guarantee. That's really not what it is. You
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 6: need different things to come in to meet different needs.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 6: And the UI system, here's what I would say about
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 6: the UI system. Our state, fantastic governor, Governor Inslee, fantastic
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 6: Employment Security Department, really working hard to process these claims
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 6: and doing much better than most other states. I would
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 6: say we've processed about 50 to 70 percent of the
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 6: claims that have come in, depending on how you look
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 6: at it. But, you know, my constituents, most of my
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 6: constituents still haven't gotten their money, but the claims are
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 6: being processed. That's not true in Florida. It's not true
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 6: in Texas. And even here in Washington state, the system
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 6: is just overwhelmed. So that's one problem with the UI
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 6: system is we're putting too many people in there. Some
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 6: of these systems have COBOL as their operating platform. They
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: were built in the 70s. But the other is what
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 6: happens to the psyche of people when you push them
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 6: onto unemployment insurance? Most people have not ever accessed the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 6: unemployment insurance system. They also then, when they get put
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 6: on COBRA, they get put on Medicaid, they get put
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 6: on any number of things, you have to navigate each
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 6: of those systems. And what we've learned about our safety
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 6: net systems is we lose a lot of people when
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 6: they have to navigate those systems, and particularly low-income folks
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 6: and people of color who really have a tough time.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 6: I mean, our office is flooded with calls trying to
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 6: just help people of all kinds, not just folks of color.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 6: But that is a real problem in navigating the systems. Also,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 6: when you push people onto unemployment, What we know about
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 6: racial disproportionality in this country is that it's baked into
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 6: our systems. What happens when somebody is trying to get
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 6: back into getting a job? The people that have the
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 6: hardest time because of workplace discrimination and discrimination against workers
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 6: of color are low-income folks and people of color in
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 6: terms of getting jobs at the other end. But I
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 6: wanna make a messaging point to you because you are
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 6: such a political animal and the show is a political
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 6: animal show. Democrats should be the party of keeping workers
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 6: in their jobs, of supporting a capitalist economy, of continuing
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 6: to show that this productive relationship between workers and employers
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 6: is one of the best things that we have anywhere
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 6: in the world. And so my belief is we can
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 6: reclaim this recovery by saying Democrats are the party of
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 6: keeping our economy going, keeping our economy strong, by preserving
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 6: the ability for people to stay in their jobs instead
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 6: of pushing them to safety net systems, reducing the strain
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 6: on the safety net systems, and then actually targeting the
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 6: need for safety net to those who need it the most.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 6: That seems like a winning political message to me rather than, hey,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 6: let's push everybody onto safety net systems and hope.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: For the best.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I have been saying something similar about this. But so
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: here's my, speaking of politics, here's my sort of broader
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: question about the HEROES Act. Trump and McConnell have called
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: this bill dead on arrival. What is the best strategy
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: going forward? Like, should Democrats try to compromise with Republicans
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: to get some kind of stimulus passed, again, knowing that
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: so many people are struggling, even if it's far less
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: than what's in this bill, even without the Paycheck Guarantee Act? Or...
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: Is this, you know, should Democrats just take some version
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: of the HEROES Act or maybe including the paycheck guarantee
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: to the voters in November? And this is our platform.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: This is what we're running on. And we give the
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: voters a choice. How do you sort of see this
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: play out?
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 6: So everything depends on, you know, what we think we
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 6: need to do and what we think we can do.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 6: I mean, those are the two factors in politics all
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 6: the time. So, you know, in terms of what we
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 6: need to do, my hope was that this Democratic only bill,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 6: because that's what maybe we'll get one or two Republican votes.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 6: But it's going to be a Democrats-only bill, should be
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 6: the vision that we put out to the American people
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 6: that is evergreen for this moment to push for what
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 6: we need, to have a very clear, defined message about
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 6: what we need in this country. And to me, it
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 6: would be, yes, we should fund our state and local governments.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 6: But state and local governments is something that politicians understand.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 6: Regular people don't see why that puts money in their pockets. So,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 6: you know, I understand that all the governors want us
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 6: to vote for the HEROES Act and and all of that,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 6: but I'm trying to figure out how do I tell
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 6: my constituents that their life is gonna get better? And
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 6: a $ 1, 200 stimulus check is not gonna do it as
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 6: much as I love that. It's not a recurring event.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 6: So I think we should have used this bill and
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 6: we still could, we still could if there was the will,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 6: use this bill to say, we think that there are
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 6: sort of four or five critical pieces that we're gonna
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: put into this bill. Number one, that we do fund
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 6: our state and local governments. We've already done that. That's
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 6: not really a messaging point. Number two, that we have
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 6: a way to stop mass unemployment, that people are going
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 6: to continue to get their paychecks. That is my paycheck
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 6: guarantee act. Number three, that we address health care so
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 6: that not a single person in America is going to
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: have to worry about the cost if they want to
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 6: go for COVID-related testing, treatment, et cetera. We can't be
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: throwing people off of health care. We've got a lot
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 6: of ways to do that, but the bill doesn't do
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 6: that right now. Number four, that we have a comprehensive testing,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 6: contact tracing, treatment plan, and that it is tying state
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 6: governments to CDC guidance before they reopen. Because that's one
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 6: of the things that's happening is people are reopening too quickly.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 6: Some of that is economic pressure, but a lot of
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 6: that is just negligence and intransigence. And so tie... the
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 6: ability of some states that aren't listening to CDC guidance,
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 6: luckily that's not my governor, but he's feeling pressure too,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 6: everybody is, tie that to something like Donna Shalala and
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 6: Jamie Raskin's Reopening America Act. Have a real plan that
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 6: you put in there around how America reopens. And then finally, yes,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 6: invest money in our health systems, our testing, contact tracing,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 6: you know, get the defense production, find an end round,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 6: end run around the Defense Production Act so that we
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 6: can actually manufacture the things that we need here, not
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 6: just leave the president to figure out how to use
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 6: it incorrectly. So to me, those are the things that
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: should be in this bill. And that allows us to
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 6: say a very clear vision that we are responding with
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 6: scale and that we are responding with certainty, that people
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 6: will have certainty, that I can go back to any
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 6: one of my constituents, any one of my businesses and say,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 6: you know what, you're a smaller medium sized business. We're
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 6: not picking winners and losers. Everybody gets this paycheck guarantee
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 6: so that your business can survive. If you're a worker,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 6: everyone's going to keep getting a paycheck and you will
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 6: have a job at the end of this because that
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 6: anxiety is killing people. I mean, I see it every
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 6: day and it's just devastating. And we've got a real
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 6: plan on the public health side. Public health and economy
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 6: are not trade-offs. They're one and the same thing. One
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 6: and the same thing. Job number one is to beat
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 6: the virus. If we want to beat the virus, you
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 6: got to keep people at home. If you want to
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 6: keep people at home, you have to remove the economic pressure.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: And you got to have a plan for them to
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 6: go back to work safely.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: So the Biden campaign announced yesterday that you're co-chairing the
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Unity Task Force on Healthcare with former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: What made you decide to accept this role? And what
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: are you guys hoping to achieve?
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 6: Well, you know, I've been, healthcare has been my thing
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 6: for a while. I'm the lead sponsor of Medicare for
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 6: All in the House. I've been on your show to
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 6: talk about this before, why I think healthcare is so essential.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: And I think the pandemic has showed us, anybody that
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 6: wanted to argue with me before that employer covered healthcare
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 6: was such a great choice. And I would say, but
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 6: if you lose your job, you've got no choice. Well,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 6: I don't need to make a theoretical argument now. I
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 6: was obviously a huge supporter of Senator Sanders. That's the
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 6: vision I ascribe to. But there is no progress that's
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 6: possible with Donald Trump in the White House. And I
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 6: think that I need to do everything I can to
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 6: help Vice President Biden find a set of truly progressive
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 6: policy platforms and ones that he can authentically push forward
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 6: because people can smell inauthenticity. in politicians as you know,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 6: he's got to believe in it and I am somebody
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 6: who is very progressive, but I also understand the political
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 6: process And so I want to try to help the
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 6: vice president to craft that set of policy proposals And
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 6: I want to help move the not me us movement
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 6: Even further forward because I think we've done an amazing
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 6: job and senator Sanders did an amazing job We have
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 6: to get young people and immigrant communities and some of
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 6: the communities that Senator Sanders really inspired to feel like
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 6: the vice president is gonna fight for them. And I
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 6: had a 15 minute conversation with the vice president before
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 6: I decided to endorse him. I mean, I was always
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: gonna endorse him, but the question is how enthusiastically, what
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 6: do you do? What role do you play? And so
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 6: I wanted to be able to be enthusiastic about him
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 6: and I needed a conversation with him to just really
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 6: understand and hear from him. And it was a very
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 6: good conversation. I do believe he's very open to these ideas.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: And I think when they asked me to co-chair the
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 6: task force, it seemed like an incredible opportunity to really
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: be at the table and to bring the voices of
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 6: people that I've been hearing from our movement. It's not
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 6: really my voice. It's like all the people that we've
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 6: been hearing to the table and to help craft some
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 6: real policy proposals that will make a difference. And it's
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 6: a pretty amazing task force. I mean, you know, I
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 6: would have picked some of those people to help figure
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 6: out the problem. So Dr. Morthy, obviously, is, you know,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 6: we had a wonderful initial conversation. We're having another one today.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 6: We're going to, you know, have our first meeting of
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 6: the task force on Saturday. Don Berwick on our side, Dr. El-Sayed,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 6: Abdul El-Sayed, 3K Henry. I mean, there's some, you know,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 6: really wonderful people on this task force and on all
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 6: of them. And I just hope that this can be
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 6: the unity platform that actually moves us forward. Not just
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 6: saying showcase, you know, not just like for show, but
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 6: it actually helps us put together some policy proposals that
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 6: do allow people to have some certainty around a real
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 6: healthcare system that they can count on.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: Just to nerd out for a second on the policy.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: So Biden's plan, I guess I would describe it as
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: robust public option, more generous subsidies, and now, um, you know,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: lowering the, uh, Medicare age, um, to, uh, 60. Um,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: so obviously he's probably not going to just embrace your
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: Medicare for all bill or Bernie's Medicare for all bill,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: but in the middle between where he is now and
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: where you guys are, what kind of policy ideas? And
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: I realized that this is going to have to be
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: the the work of the task force, but off the
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: top of your head, what are some policy ideas you
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: think are on healthcare that could be realistic for Biden
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: to embrace?
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 6: Well, I think we should start with the principles, right?
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 6: Before we get into the policies, there's some things he
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 6: can do that are really technical that will make a
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 6: huge difference. There are some things he can do that
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: were in the Affordable Care Act that have never been activated.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 6: But if the principle is, for example, And I really
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 6: want the task force to do its work. So anybody
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 6: who might be listening to this, this is not, I
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 6: really want to be allowed to let the process work.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 6: But if we can come to some agreement around a
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 6: national health insurance proposal within a certain number of years,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 6: that would be a huge step forward. It wouldn't be
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 6: Medicare for all immediately. If we can come to some
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 6: agreements around how to cut costs, because you can't, it's
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 6: about access, it's about coverage, and it's about cost. And
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 6: it's about the services. How comprehensive is it? You know,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 6: the quality of care. Those are all pieces that I
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 6: think we can make significant progress on. And perhaps if
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 6: we leave behind the label of Medicare for all, which
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: obviously I'm attached to because I've been pushing this bill,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 6: but it's less important to me. You know, I don't,
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 6: maybe we have to change the name. for whatever it
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 6: is that we come up with, so that we're not
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 6: getting into this flashpoint argument. But I think that if
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 6: we're going to, for example, if we're not gonna be
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: able to move to having everybody covered through a public plan,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 6: are there ways that we can ensure that if somebody
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 6: does lose their employment, that they automatically do get covered?
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 6: I mean, what are the ways that we can, start
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 6: to move us in the right direction. Can we look
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 6: at the Medicare system and really think about some of
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 6: the benefits of it, some of the problems with it?
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think Medicare Advantage is a problem. And
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 6: I don't know if the Biden people will agree with
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 6: me there, but I think there are ways to strengthen
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: the comprehensive set of services that are provided through Medicare.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 6: I think there are ways to perhaps, you know, we
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: could look at ideas around should employers offer a public
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 6: option type plan as one of their options. They can
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 6: opt into it. So I think there are all kinds
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 6: of things and, you know, I'm very open to what
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 6: those might be. We've had an initial conversation sort of with,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 6: you know, with Don Berwick, who used to be the
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 6: administrator for the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Um,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 6: and Abdul and I, um, and you know, and I,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 6: I hope that we can have a structure that allows
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 6: for some of the best ideas to come forward and
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 6: we can debate them. Maybe there are things we've never
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 6: thought about that other people have thought about. So I'm
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 6: really excited about it. I'm looking forward to it. It's,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 6: it's not going to be the easiest thing in the world, but, um.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: I know it sounds exciting. Yeah.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 6: You know, when you're an immigrant who came to the
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 6: United States at 16 by yourself, you're used to pushing, um,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 6: boulders up mountains. So I think that is a, you know,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 6: flex my rosy muscles.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: Well, good luck to you. Last question on this. You know,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: you were talking about how you hear so much from
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: sort of progressive activists. How confident are you that progressive support,
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: support and enthusiasm even from younger people will follow sort
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: of progressive policy in the Biden campaign, embracing progressive policy?
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Because obviously, you know, enthusiasm among younger voters, progressive voters
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: is a challenge. And I always wonder, is it policy-based?
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: Is it something else? What do you think about that?
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 6: It's a lot of things. And I'll tell you what
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 6: I said to the vice president. People have to, I mean,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 6: the one gift that he has is he is very authentic.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 6: I think people really, he has an ability to connect
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 6: with people on a human level that very few people do.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 6: And so I think that's a great strength. But he
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 6: does need to have a vision that isn't just rooted in,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 6: here's what I did with President Obama. It's gotta recognize
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 6: that there were structural issues that were in this country,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 6: even during the Obama administration, before Trump came in. Trump
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 6: is both a symptom and a cause. And so I
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 6: said to the vice president, 60% of Americans only had
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 6: 400 bucks in their bank account before the pandemic ever hit.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 6: That is what Trump exploited, is the fact that people
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 6: feel left behind by government. They feel like government, everybody
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 6: in the administration, Congress, everything, that they are more interested
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 6: in fighting for special interests than they are in fighting
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 6: for real people. And I think that if Joe Biden
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 6: has a set of really expansive policy proposals that recognize
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 6: the pain that young people feel, you know, lecturing to
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 6: young people is not a good idea. I'm the mom
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 6: of a 23-year-old. I can tell you that perfectly well.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 6: I'm also the mom stepmom of a 40-year-old. And it continues.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 6: Lecturing is not the way forward, and certainly not when
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 6: they get to a certain age. And so you have to,
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 6: I think they're right. I think I'm with our young
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 6: people that we are, to use a technical term, screwing them.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 6: I mean, we're leaving them with a planet that's burning.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 6: We're leaving them with no healthcare. no real chance at
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 6: a job, tons of debt on college. And so, what
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 6: are we telling them? And I said to the vice
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 6: president that this is not just about winning in November
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 6: of 2020, it's also about what happens in 2024. Because
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 6: if the next president, including a democratic president, does not
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 6: dramatically fix some of the income inequality, the racial inequity,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 6: the gender inequity, the health care inequity, then we will
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 6: continue to leave the door open for another Donald Trump,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 6: because Donald Trump is both a symptom and a cause.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 6: And so he really needs to be able to fix
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 6: some of these things and have an answer to young people,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 6: which is not you know, you guys are too naive,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 6: you know, you're too, you know, you don't understand, that's
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 6: not what we can do. No, if politics is the
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 6: art of the possible, then it is our job as activists,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 6: as organizers, and as elected officials to make the case
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 6: for what is possible and to lead people through. People
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 6: are looking for leadership. They're not looking for somebody to say, yeah,
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 6: I did that 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 6: You know, I was a champion back then. Look, we're
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 6: in a crisis and we need people to recognize the
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 6: pain and the devastation, the suffering that people have, and
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 6: then be able to really say, I'm going to fight
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 6: for you. And here's how I'm going to fight for you.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 6: Then I think people will come out. If it's if
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 6: it's half baked, if it's not, you know, people are like, oh,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 6: I'm worried about the, you know, this or whatever. Not,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 6: you know, people will sniff that right away and they
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 6: won't go for Trump, but they'll stay home.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: And that will.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 6: Up and down the ticket.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: Being a wet blanket has never been a winning political message.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 6: That's right. Obama didn't run on, no, we can't.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: He ran on, yes, we can.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: Well, look, the good news is, some of the stuff
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: you're saying right now, I've been hearing Joe Biden say
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: this recently more and more over the last couple of weeks.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: So it seems like you're getting through, which is good news.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today. Please come
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: back anytime. It's always a pleasure to speak with you.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 6: Well, you guys are wonderful. Thank you for the job
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 6: you're doing on the podcast. And thanks for everything that
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 6: you've contributed through your time in government and public service
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 6: as well.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you and stay safe.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 6: Take care.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Congresswoman Jayapal for joining us and have a
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: great weekend.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Cricket Media. The
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: every week.