Latest / That Mom / The Pattern That's Keeping You Stuck in the Same Fight (And How to Break It)
Transcript
- Maria Woods: you Welcome to That Mom, the podcast where we explore finding more joy and more meaning in the beautiful chaos of motherhood. I'm your host Maria, and I'm so glad you're here. Okay, great. Well, Rebecca, I'm so excited to have you as a certified sex therapist and couples therapist to talk a little bit about your work and your new book, Parents in Love. Because let's face it, I think a lot of moms out there are in marriages or relationships. And when you're parenting, your relationship can sometimes take a backseat. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I found diving into your book ⁓ particularly fascinating and what I loved about it is it really goes through kind of a real life experience. And I'm sure you've gained a lot of experience in the work you do with couples. But I found it fascinating a couple things. One, you were saying that people come to relationships and they come to arguments as a couple with a lot of baggage. ⁓ Is that everyone that you see in your experience? Yeah, I would say that that's true. I mean, I think that some people have been able to work through some of their baggage, ⁓ either whether it's an individual therapy or whether it's within the context of their relationship. we all come in to, know, none of us get out of our our childhood without some amount of baggage, no matter how wonderful our parents were. have experiences that shape the way we see the world. that's, you know, some of those are, you know, make us very functional and some of them make it difficult for us to see the interactions in our current relationships for what they are. And a lot of times the way that that shows up is that we assign ⁓ meaning or intention to our partners actions or behaviors that are not accurate. We make assumptions. ⁓ Yeah, are there any common assumptions that you see? I would say that the common assumptions, you know, they tend to be pretty negative. You know, I would love it if we had our common assumptions. you know, they think I'm fantastic. I'm doing a great job, but usually not. ⁓ Usually, you know, it can be around like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing well enough. They don't care. about me. They don't care about our relationship. I'm the only one. I'm alone. You know, a lot of it comes around to feeling unsupported, ⁓ alone, unappreciated. And those are really, for many of us, can be really deep wounds ⁓ where it's hard to, you know, we can really get caught up in our own feelings about that. Yeah, so maybe someone's feeling unappreciated, if they look at what's actually going on, ⁓ that may not be the intention behind which their partner is acting or speaking. Almost never. I would say in a relationship, I suspect that probably many of your listeners are very ⁓ familiar with the cycle of rupture and repair. And we talk about that a lot. tend to talk about that a lot in the context of parenting. And that's something that I don't think that many of our parents, in older generations, they probably, they weren't talking about rupture and repair. They were talking, their philosophy tended to be more, adults are right. Maybe a soft inversion of children should be seen and not heard. But I don't really remember my parents doing a lot of apologizing. And I think that that probably goes for a lot of people who are parenting now. And so in the context of parenting, we're so familiar with this cycle of rupture and repair. You we rupture with our children. We hurt their feelings. We miss a tune with them. We don't mean to, but we make mistakes because we're human. And we know with our children that when we do that, okay, forgive ourselves. We just repair. say, sorry. We make a meaningful repair with our children. And that's that cycle of rupture and repair. But in our intimate relationships, this happens as well. And similar to, to parenting, you know, the rupture may happen because we were dysregulated. It may happen because we misunderstood. It may happen because we were sleep deprived or frustrated or felt unloved or unappreciated. ⁓ But it's almost never intentional. But the thing about... And it's inevitable. we will always rupture with the people that we love. No matter how careful we are, we will always rupture with them because we're not the same person because we're individual humans. And, and it's almost always unintentional. But repair has to be intentional. And it has to involve perspective taking, which is really challenging. It's a hard skill to take your partner's perspective and say, ⁓ yeah, wow, I really made you feel bad there. A lot of times we want to explain our actions, like explaining our actions. Well, no, no, no, you misunderstood. I didn't make you feel bad because this is what I did. And that's not repair. That's actually the opposite. It's invalidating. ⁓ So explaining your actions, being defensive is invalidating. Correct. Which is the opposite of repair. That's right. We want to avoid this. Yes, we do. And yet we do it all the time. mean, I do it too. You know, because the thing is, is we don't want our beloved, you know, our, person who's so important to us, the idea that they would think badly of us, like I meant to hurt you. No, no, no. I can't bear that you would think that I meant to hurt you. I really need you to understand that I didn't mean to hurt you. But the way that that comes out a lot of times is you weren't hurt. Because if you understand where I was coming from and that I didn't mean to, then that means that, you this is our logic. shouldn't be hurt. That's right. Yeah. But so we miss a step there, which is I hurt you. ⁓ wow. I really hurt you. I'm so sorry. Your hurt is real. And then we can, ⁓ you know, because sometimes saying where we got stuck or what our hurt was or what we thought. You sometimes it can be helpful, but we don't start there. No, we don't start there. So one of the things about repair, you know, and I do this with my kids a lot, ⁓ is you really have to be ready from a nervous system perspective to repair. And so a lot of times we really, you know, it's uncomfortable to be in conflict with the people that we love. And so we try to rush the repair. And so I imagine that this is probably something that people can relate to that a lot of times if I'm trying to do a repair with my kids, you know, probably it's like, I've yelled at them in a way that, you know, isn't in line with my parenting philosophy or something like that. And I feel bad about it. And so I'll go in and I'll say, I'm really sorry. You know, I, I, got really frustrated. That wasn't right. I'm really sorry that I spoke to you that way. But if you hadn't. fill in the blank that I wouldn't, you know, it's like, whoops, rewind. Let me, let me take a little bit longer. And so I think that that's one of the, one of the things that can happen when we try to go in for repair and we end up going in for repair and then we explain our actions. It's because sometimes we're not quite ready to do the repair from a nervous system perspective. We're not actually regulated ourselves in a way that we can take perspective. We still feel like we really need to be heard. Yes, ⁓ needing to be heard. So I'd love to talk more about that and also the nervous system regulation that can get us there because I know I struggle with needing to be heard. And sometimes I know in a previous conversation we mentioned it's actually like fool's gold, but it can feel so important to be heard. And I guess that means sometimes I'm playing the fool in this process. You aren't the only one. You aren't the only one. ⁓ Yes. So what you're alluding to this idea of fool's gold is, you know, one of the main way that I practice with couples is using a method called emotionally focused therapy, which is an attachment based method that was, you know, created by a woman named Sue Johnson, a psychologist named Sue Johnson. And basically at the heart of this method, ⁓ There's something called the cycle and other couples therapy methods Terry real uses this in his method method as well Which listeners may be familiar with he calls it the more the more? Which I kind of like because it's very descriptive but basically what this is is a co-created pattern in a relationship and so for instance the more I ⁓ Talk the more silent you get the more I perceive to the more you withdraw and that's the cycle. so basically that fool's gold piece is that thinking that if I just talk a little more, it's going to get through to you. If I just explain my actions a little bit more, whatever your protection is, whatever your defenses, whatever your go-to is, the idea being that we really want to break through. really want to get understood and be under and understand our partner in return. so that we can get connection. But the more we try to do those old patterns where we just have, you know, it feels like banging your head against a brick wall. And you can sort of tell when you're in the cycle with your partner because a lot of times people will say, ⁓ my god, I can't believe we're back here. How many times have I said these same things? That's the cycle. Yeah. or a similar pattern app and the more you push on someone if they're withdrawing, they're not going to hear you. That's right. Yeah. But it's really hard for the person who's pursuing, they're doing a really important job. They are taking care of the relationship in the best way that they know how. But the more that they do that, if they have a withdrawing partner, the more that partner is going to participate less in bringing things forward, participate less in the conversation. or even in the relationship, the more silent they're going to get, and then the more alone that pursuing partner is going to feel, which then in turn makes them reach for connection more. And you know, the trick here is, is that our intention is to be connected, but oftentimes it comes out with a twist. You know, so if our intention is to get understood and we're a pursuer, that may land with our withdrawing partner, like criticism or blame. And the more they feel criticism or blame, the more defensive they might get. And then that ends up. not creating the connection that both people want. And so that's the fool's gold. It's like playing out those same patterns again and again, because we don't know what else to do. We're just genuinely, both of us are stuck in that cycle. Yeah. So what do we do? Because I think for some of us, for me, I'll say it's not intuitive. If you push harder, maybe you'll break through. Maybe you'll get there. So it seems not intuitive, but you have to take a step back to realize it's not getting you what you want so you have to take different action. What does that look like? And maybe I guess a related question is what are these cycles or patterns? Is it always the pursuer and the withdraw? What patterns are there out there so maybe people can try to see themselves in one of these patterns or cycles? Yeah, absolutely. So... Let me talk about the different types of patterns first, and then I'll talk about what we can do about it. So the most common is pursue-withdraw. So each of each person has the ability, the capacity to pursue and withdraw. So it's very common that you might be a pursuer in one relationship, but a withdraw in the next. And so this can also be applied, you know, we're talking about this in the context of a romantic relationship, but it can also be, you it might be that in your romantic relationship, you are a pursuer, but in your family of origin with say, a sibling or mom or dad, you might be more on the withdrawing side. In one romantic relationship, you might be the pursuer, but in the previous romantic relationship, you were the withdraw. So what that tells us is that we tend to push each other further to the side. So if we have, if we sort of, have the tendency to be with a withdraw, but we're coupled with somebody who's more of a withdraw, then we may look like, you we may play out the role of a pursuer. Okay. It is possible in relationships to have two withdrawers. So you can also have withdraw, withdraw. That tends to be like nobody's on the dance floor. So Sue Johnson was a tango dancer. And so she loved the Argentinian tango. And so a lot of the language of EFT is in the language of dance. And so she talks about the cycle as being the dance. And so we have to change the music is what she says. We change the music, we learn new moves. And so the withdraw, withdraw pattern looks like nobody's on the dance floor. know, there's maybe like a very little communication, you know, a lot of shutdown. And then there's also what can be called an attack attack, which is two pursuers, those relationships tend to be very fiery, they can be kind of unstable, they don't always last very long. Makes sense. So most common is this pursue-withdraw combination. Pursue-withdraw. And not to get too into the weeds, but a lot of times what can be, what might look like an attack-attack or a withdraw-withdraw. When I get into the work with a couple, actually find that we have a burnt out pursuer. So a pursuer who is so exhausted that they have given up or a withdraw who's burnt out is going to say, cause the withdraw, what they want to do is they want to protect the relationship. Conflict feels dangerous and not safe. And so they tend to withdraw. They tend to do a lot of compartmentalizing. And so when a withdraw has gotten really burnt out and that strategy is not working anymore, they can sometimes kind of say, can I swear on here? Yeah, sure. Mom's can't, the moms can handle it. Yeah. So the withdraw says, fuck it. Why am I trying so hard? And then they start getting more conflict oriented. They may then be saying more hurtful things, more sort of like conflict oriented things. And so that can sometimes look like an attack attack. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. ⁓ Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It makes tons of sense to me that the pursuer is pushing for something. They have positive intentions, but it's making someone withdraw. They feel attacked and they're clearly just not seeing eye to eye. That's right. That's right. So to the second part of the question is what can we do about it? Right. So the first thing that we have to do is we have to stop playing out the negative cycle. So a lot of times what ends up happening is that we've been playing out the negative cycle as a couple when by the time I see it or you know in any relationship we're not trying to play out the negative cycle we're getting stuck in this negative cycle where both people are misattuned and disconnected and so we have a lot of muscle memory about that and so we kind of go into it without having to think about it you know we're not like you know it'd be really fun today let's have a terrible fight you know like very similar to the ones we've already had that's right that's right that's gonna to the most productive use of our time. So we don't do it on purpose. So where we have to start is actually by recognizing instead of turning on each other because this is what happens in the cycle. Well, you aren't listening to me. You don't care enough. You're not trying enough. You just criticize me. All you do is blame. I can never make you happy. Always and never are big when you're in the cycle. Yes. And so what we have to do is we have to recognize we are in the cycle. Right. Instead of blaming each other, say blame the cycle. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's in your book. That's that's great. I mean, I didn't make it up. It's Sue Johnson. You know, I can't take credit for that. but it's true. And it's a lot harder than you think it is, because that's the fool's gold piece is that you just want to keep going after it. It's like when you're stuck in the cycle, you have to think about yourself as like a terrier with a bone, because what happens when we're in the cycle and we're disconnected from our beloved, is it is a threat to our nervous system. So our nervous systems respond to it the same way that we would if a bear is coming at us in the woods. And our decision making and our emotional regulation all goes offline. And it's really hard sometimes to step away from that because we go into fight or flight. Yeah. So is that part of it that in order to get out of the cycle, you have to take a break to regulate your nervous system before you can move forward productively? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so this can be something that, you know, ⁓ couples can sort of navigate together because sometimes you, you know, it's, hard to take a break. Sometimes your partner might say, I need a break. you're like, no, you can't have a break right now. You know, like, don't leave me alone. I'm not done with my points yet. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Okay, fine. You can take a break, but you have to listen to me first. So agreeing together that when you get stuck in this really predictable way, you know, sometimes couples come up with like a safe word or they just just say we're in the cycle, I think we should take a break. And then a lot of times you separate usually at least half an hour is what your nervous system needs to regulate. And then you come back together. And this is really important because for withdrawing partners, a lot of times they want to take a break and never come back. Yes. Yeah. And pursuing partners are like, that's right. They're like, I might die if we don't talk in the next 30 seconds. So like, We have to navigate this that ⁓ depending on how big your cycle gets, really navigating not only are we going to take a break, we are then going to come back and we're going to try to do it differently. Yeah. Okay. That's amazing. ⁓ I have a question that is kind of where your book starts, the Parents in Love book. Why is it so hard for couples that are parents? I mean, maybe that's where we should have started today, but I think ⁓ a lot of parents, moms listening know that it's a little difficult to have that connection after kids, but why? Why is it so hard? Yeah. I mean, it's a combination of factors. ⁓ We have less time. We have less energy. And we fall in love with our kids. And so in some ways, falling in love with a baby, adding a child to your family, it's almost like having an affair. Like it's, it's this whole nother thing that you throw into the relationship and there has to be recovery afterwards. And it has to be intentional. Just like, you know, for birthing partners, our bodies have to recover. And for everybody, we have to recover from adding a kid to the family, you know, whether it's your first kid or your second kid or your fifth kid, it really takes probably about a year. or more to get really used to having that child as part of the family. You everybody's got to be sleeping again. That can definitely take longer than a year. ⁓ But the family goes through an adjustment period and the relationship does too. But a lot of times our relationships are strong enough that we ask them to wait and wait and wait. know, relationships that are really truly in crisis, they make the time. You know, if their marriage is on a rocks, a lot of times I see this after like an affair or a really big break in a relationship that it's like, ⁓ wow, they're really making the time. For relationships that are pretty solid, it's easy to ask it to wait and wait. And I think a big factor, you certainly the emotional connection, like going on a date or having a conversation without being interrupted, those things can wait. But also the sexual connection can really be asked to wait and wait and wait. And it feels really, really hard to figure out a way to have that join you in parenthood. And so what are some of the ways I know you have a framework that you talk about in the book, a three part framework. ⁓ Maybe could you walk us through that? Is that the number one way that we come together and start to prioritize the romantic relationship even with kids? Yeah, so I think that the first way to prioritize the romantic relationship with kids, you know, something that your listeners could take away right now. You know, the framework is great, but it's a little bit, you know, it can be a little bit feel a little bit complicated if that's where you're starting. I like to talk to people about noticing the micro moments because the overall climate of the relationship matters. so a lot of times what happens when you have kids is like, you know, one person will, this is just an example, right? One person walks in, you know, maybe there's a primary parent at home or someone's gotten home from work earlier. They've relieved the nanny or they've picked up the kids from daycare or whatever. The other person walks in and it's like all chaos. There's like, and there's no hello. There's no hi, how are you? There's no acknowledgement of the connection between the two parents. It's just like, get in here, join me in the trenches. And so something as simple as having a nice hello and goodbye, that's a micro moment. You know, it takes just a few seconds to look up. Make eye contact and say, ⁓ I'm so glad to see you. How was your day? like a hug, a hug that involves a deep breath. Yeah. Or a kiss or, you know, those little teeny micro moments. Yeah. Running your hand across your partner's, you know, back as you pass them in the kitchen. That really makes a difference for the romantic connection and makes people feel like less of roommates and more of partners who are working on a very, very difficult, crazy long-term project that lasts for, I mean, it just keeps going. You know, it's like, yes, ⁓ I love this because it's it takes no extra time to execute this right here. It's the same amount of time to keep doing the dishes or to look up and to greet someone properly. So I think that's great. I know there's another one in the book that you say resonated with me where I'm at right now that prioritizing the relationship can be as simple as the moment of asking a child to wait. you're done speaking to your partner like just a moment I'm still talking to dad I'll be with you finishing your conversation and then you know getting to the child that's something I am trying to do and I think that's like another great tip how to prioritize your relationship without taking any extra time we're not doing fancy date nights you're just paying attention and making sure that conversation is a priority. Yeah absolutely and you know I mean I might have a little bit of a biased perspective here but I really think that that's good for the kids too. Yeah. Because well, our children may be the center of our world. Our children are not the center of the world. Right. And so if we teach them that they are and we don't teach them those skills of waiting and saying what you I want to hear what you have to say what you have to say is important, but it's not the most important thing in the world. That's a skill that's going to serve them really well in all of their adult relationships and all of their friendships with other peers. And so if we not only is that something that's good for our relationship together and making each other feel important as partners, but it is also good for the kids. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. ⁓ Perfect. So that was on my list, kind of the reconnection. doesn't just happen. ⁓ Something else I wanted to talk about was You say in the book that when couples come to you They're often surprised at how much attention you pay to what's happening right now that couples often want to talk about what happened in the past and All of that and you're like, no, let's just talk about now. Why why is that? Yeah, so I think that it's like always the thing, right? They want to talk about the thing and and you know, they want to tell me all the details about why this, you know, their partner has done this thing and why they're right. You know, why that this is, you know, whether it's a decision. to say you're the one that's right in this situation. Or more importantly, honestly, yes, of course they'd want that. But more importantly, they want their partner to acknowledge their rightness. Yeah. You know, and so getting into the content, not that the content doesn't matter, but it kind of doesn't matter. I mean, there's some things that are important, like, you you have to be able to talk about things, like making decisions, whether it's something big, like, are we going to have a second or a third child, ⁓ or a fourth or fifth child, ⁓ or something small, like, you know, are we going to sign our kid up for a second sport? or not. Is that a right choice for our family? And sometimes talking about, you know, talking about whether we're going to, or who's going to unload the dishwasher, you know, like it doesn't, the thing doesn't really matter because as we all know, some of the biggest nastiest fights can be about something as simple as like a tone of voice. And then you're in the middle of the fight and you're like, well, this has been going on for a while now. And I don't even remember what started it, but I sure as hell can't walk away because I know there's a point that I'm trying to. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the content in some ways, it's like, we know that we could get into a huge blowout fight over like almost literally nothing, or it could be something really important. So the thing that I'm much more interested in is how does it feel? What's going on? the underneath feeling and you know one of the best things that a couple can do. You know, I don't let couples fight during our session, so I will stop them. But if they start to fight, ⁓ I just love it. Because then I'm like, okay, what just happened? Or a lot of times, you know, it's like this thing that happens where, you know, someone will say something and the other one will give them a look. And then they catch it. And it's like, ⁓ okay, that's where I want to go. What just happened right here and now? Because those small little interactions are just as good. You know, it's like, All of the information about the cycle is contained in that one little interaction a lot of times And so you're mostly trying to get people to recognize their own cycle We're not correct because we're all playing a part in the cycle It's not that someone's mostly right in some mostly wrong. We're just trying to recognize What's the cycle that we're in and how can we take a break from that? That's right. And so ultimately the only you know, it's it I guarantee that most people will be able to tell me exactly what it is that their partner is doing. Yes. Right? But it's when you can tell me exactly what it is that you're doing. And each person can tell me exactly what it is that they're doing. by doing, mean, where they get stuck, where they're struggling and have some compassion for that. You know, that it's okay. We all get stuck. We all struggle. It doesn't make us bad partners or people. But when we can start to recognize that, and that's part of the framework. So noticing, you know, noticing where you get stuck, what's going on with you, owning what your piece is. And then the third piece of that framework is connecting. And so that connection ⁓ is sort of like the last piece. But we can see that even in noticing the cycle, owning that you're in the cycle. Okay, I'm noticing internally, I'm having that feeling. I think we're in the cycle owning, hey, I'm feeling really stuck right now. I think I might be in the cycle. Could we take a break? And then once that's calmed down, you can go back and you can try for some connection because the cycle blocks all connection. Yeah, and noticing I think noticing is the awareness piece the owning is like recognizing maybe some of that baggage we talked about earlier where that's coming in that you know when I When my husband does something my partner does something I feel like they don't care because I have this baggage that Someone doesn't care as much as I care but in reality that's Potentially not most likely not what your partner is doing That's owning the baggage that you're bringing the story that you're kind of bringing to the actions of someone else. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. Okay. So it's the notice own connect is the framework that takes a little bit of work. Yeah, that's right. It does take a little bit of work. And you know, I think we've talked about mostly we've talked about the emotional cycle here today, but there's also we can apply this both in and out of the bedroom. So there can also be a sexual cycle and It's very common that in a relationship there might be a sexual pursuer and a sexual withdraw. So the sexual pursuer is typically the person who's initiating ⁓ sexual interactions more often. They might be the higher desire partner. And the sexual withdraw is the person who maybe is the lower desire partner. And they might be withdrawing more from sexual interactions. And it's very common, you sometimes you can have someone who is both a sexual and emotional pursuer or withdrawrer. So they're pursuing emotionally ⁓ and sexually. Yes. But it's also very common that you might have somebody who is, it's like a flip-flop cycle. So the person who's the emotional pursuer, so the person who's sort of bringing up a lot of the issues, who might be kind of saying, hey, could we talk about this? They could be the sexual withdraw. They might be the lower desire partner. And their emotionally withdrawing partner may be a sexual pursuer. So they're flip-flopping. Exactly. Exactly. And you brought up... ⁓ desire, higher or lower desire. And I know in the book you say discrepancy is normal, I think is the term you use. I think that's important to understand. Like that's just something that's common that you see. ⁓ absolutely. I mean, all the research plays this out that in a long-term relationship, it is much more the norm than the exception to have a difference in desire. And this can be steady through a relationship, you Sometimes there's one person who just naturally has a higher libido than the other and they are sort of for the lifetime of the relationship the higher desire partner. But it's also very common that this can change and so maybe in the beginning of the relationship the desire, the libido was a little bit better, know, more matched. And then as the relationship goes on sometimes this can happen around, ⁓ you know, having children. Sometimes it can happen around like perimetapods. or aging where the desire takes a bit of a hit and then a couple that was reasonably well matched is no longer. And then, so it's not the difference in desire that's the issue, similar to the emotional cycle, it's not the difference in perspective, it's not the misattunement necessarily that's the issue, it's the difference between. So like, so for instance, it's not one person. So it's not the low desire partner who's the problem. That's often the case that when people come to see me, they say, you know, my partner, they never want to have sex and this is really an issue and can you like fix them or often very commonly it's the low desire person who's coming to see me. Hey, listen, this is causing a lot of issues in my relationship. What's wrong with me that I don't have a lot of desire. Okay. But It's actually not a one person issue similar to the emotional cycle. It's both people. Because if you have two people who are equally low in desire or equally high in desire, there's no rub there. There's not an issue. It's when there's a difference in desire that it becomes an issue. Yeah. That's so fascinating. ⁓ And I know you also talk in the book about ⁓ desire and how it's a little bit different than you might expect in terms of I think you call it response and spontaneous desire. Yes. So spontaneous desire is what we often think of as desire. You're walking down the street, you wake up in the morning, you're going through your day, and all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ dang, let's do this. You know? And so a lot of times that type of desire comes very quickly with arousal. there may be a, you know, physical arousal is different than desire. So desire is the feeling of wanting something that we don't have. It's wanting connection with our partner. It's wanting physical, sexual contact with our partner, sexual desire. But sexual arousal is actually the body's response. So that's an erection. It's increased lubrication. We know the signs of arousal. ⁓ And so for spontaneous desire, arousal and desire often sort of happen very quickly together. And this is what we think of as, I really want you. I have desire for you. This is what desire looks like. This is more common for men because testosterone is one of the major drivers behind spontaneous desire and men tend to have more testosterone. It's also more common for women in the beginning of relationships because we want sex for all kinds of different reasons. know, some of it is because it feels good, because it's pleasurable, but some of it is because it's you know, it's a reassurance. It makes us feel connected. It makes us feel close. And so when we have novelty and we are, you know, getting to know somebody new, we tend to have a higher sexual desire. ⁓ So that's one kind. And it's perfectly normal to have, for some people to have lots of spontaneous desire, it's perfectly normal for some people to have, you know, hardly any spontaneous desire. The other kind of desire, which is less known and less understood, is called responsive desire. And so if spontaneous desire is like a light switch, like on off, ⁓ responsive desire is more like a like think of it like as a campfire. It's like a slow burn. And so when you have this responsive desire, the sexual interaction actually starts with willingness. So willingness to kind of see how it where it's going to go. willingness to be sexual with your partner, willingness to ⁓ kind of just Put yourself in the situation. And sometimes that is like, the willingness can feel like, you know, know that this is gonna be really good for my relationship. ⁓ I know that this is, you know, I never regret having sex with my partner. I know that once we get into it, it'll be good, I'll enjoy it. Like, all right, fine, I don't really feel like it right now, but I know once I get going, it'll be good. So those are examples of willingness. And so then starting with willingness, then we get into being sexual. So that might be kind of making out. It might be, you know, whatever, whatever foreplay you're doing. may even be, you know, intercourse. Then physical arousal starts. Okay. So that's way later. Way later. And then not, not until after physical arousal comes on board does desire show up. Okay. Wow, yeah, so those are definitely two different scenarios. Very different. So the person with the responsive desire has a much longer runway. And the person with more responsive desire often has a lot of sort of breaks along the way, like, ⁓ I'm touched out, I'm exhausted. Things that get in the way of the willingness of starting with willingness. And so that can feel really challenging because a lot of times what we long for is for our partners to have spontaneous desire for us. And that's just not a realistic expectation. It's not. Yeah, no, it's not a realistic expectation. No, it's not. But ironically, once we start to accept that responsive desire is something that's equally valid and equally great. mean, highly satisfying. Pleasurable sexual interactions can start with responsive desire. Like there is no there's not a good or a bad and the more we accept that this is fine This is this is where we're starting from we're starting from willingness. There's nothing wrong with that ⁓ The more actually desire has space to show up Because there's not pressure. It seems almost like the, it's a mindset shift for both, for both the pursuer and the withdraw. That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's just a little more aligned with reality. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You also talk a little bit about breaks and gas in terms of the bedroom. How does that play out for you? Yeah. So, you know, the gas pedal. this comes out of some research that ⁓ some folks did and actually Emily Nagoski in her book Come As You Are, a lot of that book is based on this research that these folks did. ⁓ And what they talk about is that there's a sexual excitement system essentially and an inhibition. So the excitement system is the gas. And the inhibition system is the brakes. And we need both of them because we can get into a lot of trouble if we have no brakes and we're just like going around like having sex in public places. And I mean, it can get bad, right? Like we, we need the brakes. We need to be able to say, ⁓ maybe not here, maybe not now. This isn't, you know, ⁓ and so Both systems, everybody has both, but some people have more sensitive breaks and some people have more sensitive gas pedals. And people who tend to have a more sensitive gas pedals may not be so sensitive to the things that could be the breaks for their partner. So for instance, someone who has really sensitive breaks, no matter how much you push on the gas, so an example of this is like, say you are in a sexual situation with your partner and you're starting with willingness, you're willing to see where it goes, but all All you can think about is fill in the blank, the kids lunches for tomorrow, the laundry, the, you know, it's too cold in the room, your busy mind, you're thinking about work or whatever. And it feels like I can't say those things because it's going to break the mood and they're going to feel like I don't want to be here. And so I'm not going to say it. I'm going to hide it. And the more that happens, the more those breaks get put on. It can even be thoughts about our own body, like, oof, I don't know, like, how this angle, how do I look at this angle, or the lights are on, or, you know, anything can come in a stray thought and slam on the brakes. And so when the brakes are on, any sort of sexual touch can feel neutral, or even not pleasurable. something that you might really enjoy if you're in a different frame of mind. figuring out what those brakes are and how to release them is really important. know, it's like if you're in a car and you've got the E-brake on and you're hitting the gas, your tires are just going to spin. You're not going to go anywhere. So really figuring out what those brakes are and how to work with them ⁓ is really important. And that's like a self-awareness piece, right? you can choose to share with your partner if you're comfortable. Yeah, it's a self-awareness piece and also a lot of times it's like a self-acceptance piece because a lot of times we don't actually want to have the breaks that we have. Mm-hmm. You know? It's like... Okay, but it is what it is, right? Right. Like, do I want to be distracted by the laundry or do I want to be feeling like I'm completely touched out and I have nothing left for my partner? Probably not. Right. But that's where you're at. That's where you're at. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's super helpful. ⁓ Rebecca, thank you. I think this was just such a fun conversation. ⁓ Is there anything else you want to add before we close? You know, I think that one of the reasons why I wrote this book and you know, some of the work that I do is that this is not, I don't think anything that we talked about today is going to be shocking to people, right? Like this is not something that parents are going to be like, what is she talking about? I've never, you know, like, no, like we, it's very relatable and very relatable. Very, you know, to me too, that's, you know, I'm a parent, I'm in a long-term relationship. I see couples who are parents and who are in long-term relationships. And so the book came out of both my own personal experience and my ⁓ experience with clients, my clinical experience. And I kept hearing the same thing again and again and again. And even on social media, in friend groups, there's these jokes about like, ⁓ you never want to have sex again? Like, get married and have a couple kids. That'll do it. But there's never like a, ⁓ but it doesn't have to be that way. Right. But it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah. And I like the emphasis on, ⁓ Understanding your partner on so much of the emotional stuff and the everyday relationship stuff certainly ties into the intimate stuff as well Yeah, I found the book super relatable and super practical to just take a little bit in peace and Put it into your life or to stop and spend more time where you think you need to Yeah, good. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And thank you so much for having me. What a guy of course, and I know there's also more to listen to on your own podcast, ⁓ Under the Hood Docs. Tell us about your podcast and where to find it. Yeah, definitely. So you can find it, you know, anywhere podcasts are Spotify or ⁓ Apple or whatever. ⁓ So I co-host it with a pelvic floor physical therapist, Dr. Alex DiGrado, who's amazing. Amazing. As you know, that's actually how we're connected. Yeah, exactly. And so she's amazing. And I every single episode, I learned something things. So we sort of alternate back and forth. And the idea behind it is that as a sex therapist, I often refer to a pelvic floor physical therapist. And likewise, you know, there's a lot of overlap in our practices, but we didn't really know what the other person was doing. We just knew when to refer. And so we started these conversations as really a curiosity about each other's work. And it's really been like so transformative for me just to learn every time we meet about you know, something pelvic floor related. ⁓ So that's just been so fun. one of our most recent episodes, we did a two part series on orgasm, you know, from the pelvic floor perspective, because orgasm is a pelvic floor event. And then also from the sex therapy perspective. ⁓ So that was really fun. And, you know, we sort of try to find those overlaps. And then a lot of our topics are unrelated. You know, we talked about resentment. We talk about, ⁓ you know, incontinence. We talk about ⁓ sex after kids, know, all of the things. Amazing. And the book again is called Parents in Love, a guide to great sex after kids. ⁓ And Rebecca, where else can people find you on your website or your practice? Yeah. So ⁓ I have a private practice. I'm licensed in Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York. And if people want to work with me as a therapist, they can find me on my website ⁓ or actually really if they want to work with me in any capacity. They can find me on my website, which is my name, RebeccaYudy.com. And then they can also follow me on Instagram. It's Rebecca Howard Yudi on Instagram. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me. This is Maria and you've been listening to That Mom. Thank you for being here. If this episode resonated, share it with a mom who needs it too. And if you're ready for more, your next episode is waiting because every conversation here is meant to empower you to live better.