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Transcript

“The Weakest Strongman.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Lovett talks to former Obama pollster Cornell
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Belcher about where the race stands after both conventions. Before that,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about Trump's embrace of the violence and chaos
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: in Kenosha and Portland, Joe Biden's response and his return
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: to the campaign trail, and the latest COVID developments, including
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: the race to produce a vaccine before the year's over.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Tommy is out today. It is his birthday. Happy birthday, Tommy.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Tom. Um, love it. You had a, a
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: love it or leave it over the weekend. How was it?
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: John was great. We had, uh, I'm waiting for something.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you that. You're going to be like, ah,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: it was pretty mediocre.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Listen, they can't, they look, they can't all be, they
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: can't all be perfect. No, this is a great episode.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: We had Kara Swisher came and judged the monologue and, uh,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: shared a story about Kim Guilfoyle back in her days, uh,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: from San Francisco. Alex Morse talked about his primary against
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: house ways and means chair, Richie Neal, uh, We had
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Alicia Garza to talk about the protests and Guy Branum
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and Aaron Ryan joined to talk about the convention. It
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: was a great app. It's a great app.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: One quick note before we start. The conventions are over
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: and a lot of states have less than one month
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: to finish registering voters ahead of Election Day. Earlier this year,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Vote Save America teamed up with PowerPack to launch the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Every Last Vote Fund, which supports aggressive on-the-ground efforts to
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: mobilize Black, Brown, Indigenous, and other marginalized communities who are
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: routinely the victims of targeted voter suppression efforts. They support
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: groups like Souls to the Polls in Wisconsin, the Florida
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Immigrant Coalition, and many more in the battleground states where
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: we need to win. So far, you've all raised over $ 400, 000.
• 1:57
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• 1:58
  Speaker 1: sure that every last vote is counted. Go to votesaveamerica.com
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: slash everylastvote to donate and learn more. Tuesday is also
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: National Poll Worker Recruitment Day. Comes earlier every year. We
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: are working to recruit 10,000 poll workers. If you are
• 2:14
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• 2:17
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• 2:20
  Speaker 1: You can find all the information you need. Again, votesaveamerica.com.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: So let's get to the news. On Saturday night, a
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: caravan of Trump supporters drove into downtown Portland over the
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: objections of law enforcement. Many were armed, they started fights,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: and they shot tear gas and paintballs at protesters and journalists.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: One person was also shot and killed. He was a
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: member of a right-wing group, though the Trump organizers say
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: he wasn't part of their violent caravan, a video of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: which was tweeted by Trump on Sunday with the words,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: great patriots. Trump also liked a tweet that said, quote,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Kyle Rittenhouse is a good example of why I decided
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: to vote for Trump. Rittenhouse is the right-wing radical who's
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: been charged with shooting and killing two protesters in Kenosha,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin last week. He's also received support from a college
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Republicans chapter in Arizona. A Republican candidate, a Republican congressman,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and a number of right-wing media figures. Lovett, why do
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you think MAGA World has decided to rally around this
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: particular teenager who can be seen on video shooting people?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Terrible question, John. I think it goes to the same
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: motivation that led Trump to have the St. Louis gun
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: couple speak at the convention. It is a culmination of
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: where the Republican Party has been And the conservative movement
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: has been going for a while. You know, I said
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: it as a joke, but it's also true, which is
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: the fundamental message of having that couple at the convention
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: of what Trump is saying is basically, if you're white
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: and afraid, anything is justified. Anything is justified to support
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump. Anything is justified against people you don't like.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Anything is justified to help your side. And I think fundamentally,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: The reason they are doing this, if there's a kind
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: of coherent reason, it is that they want to talk
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: about protests not as an access point to a conversation
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: about race. They want to turn it to an access
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: point to a conversation about crime and chaos and violence
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: and socialism. And as much as they can make this
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: vigilante kid a hero, they are saying that the violence
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: was justified because what these people are doing is radical, extreme, dangerous, violent, etc.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's, I mean, it's also, it's grievance politics.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: It's like, to me, it's cancel culture taken to its
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: extreme conclusion, right? Like, here's this poor young kid charged
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: with murder after defending himself from a mob in this
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Democrat-run city that's descended into chaos. And once again, the
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: media is lying about what really happened because they're out
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: to get conservatives. And so he becomes a symbol of
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: of how they're all victims in this society, right? Like
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: this is like a right-wing cultural thing in their media.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I guess, why do you think that in the coverage
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: of all this, the discussion about what is clearly organized
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: right-wing violence just gets mixed in with a larger discussion
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: about looting and destruction and general chaos and the protests?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Like it does seem to be a completely separate and
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: very dangerous problem, but it all gets sort of mashed together.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. I mean, it's sort of a symptom
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: of the larger ways in which false equivalence is created
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: between what's happening on the right and what's happening on
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: the left. This kid drove from 30 minutes away from
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: across state lines to defend businesses. Really, he went there
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: to be part of it. He went there to be
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: part of the fight to have a chance to be
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: on the right side, to have the chance to maybe
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: pick a fight or have a violent altercation, to be
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: in the mix, to be in the mix of this
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: very exciting moment where violence on the right is justified, right?
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: That's what's spreading on Facebook. That's what this kid is after.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: You know, one thing I was noticing when I was
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: thinking about this sort of comparison that's being made is,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: you know, we talk about the Black Lives Matter movement,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: we talk about the protest movement, and you think, well,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: who's the leader? And the answer is it doesn't seem
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: to be really one leader. There's a bunch of different
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: leaders because in many ways, this is an organic movement
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: that has grown up in response to a genuine harm,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: genuine pain, genuine systemic injustice that is manifest in police
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: killings and then in a host of other ways. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: then you think about what's happening on the right. Well,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: who's the leader? Well, we know who the leader is.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It's Donald Trump, right? And so you look at what
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: these two groups of protesters seem to want. And on
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: the Black Lives Matter protesters, the protesters on the street
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: in Kenosha, they are protesting against specific harms and seeking justice.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: What do the Trump vigilantes want? What do they want?
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: They want to hurt those people. They want power. They
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: want domination. They want their side to win. They want
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: to prove that they're not going to give up control
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: in their minds. I don't know.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: You talked about Rittenhouse traveling to Kenosha. The same thing
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: happened in Portland on Saturday night. This Trump caravan was
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: organized in the suburbs. police told them explicitly, do not
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: go into downtown Portland. So they said, all right, originally
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: their route was to be around Portland and just to
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: drive through. Oh, we're just showing our support. No one
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: did that. They just, most of the caravan decided to
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: go right into Portland because they wanted trouble. They started fights.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: They shot tear gas. They are trying to find violence, right?
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: And part of it is just like everything's so mixed
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: up there. You have, you have a couple of different
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: things going on in these cities. One is like a
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: group of largely peaceful Black Lives Matter protests, which we
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: have seen happening since June. And these are mostly peaceful protesters.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Then you have, yeah, you have a few Antifa elements
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: here and there. You have some anarchists here and there.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: You have people who are looting here and there, right?
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And then you have organized right-wing violence that is, I mean,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: we've seen 187 appearances of paramilitary and other far-right actors
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: at rallies nationwide from late May to early June. Most
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: of the arrests in Kenosha have been of outsiders. Something
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: like 70% of the arrests there were outsiders. So these
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: were people who were coming into Kenosha. And it's like,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: you know, these groups are getting radicalized on Facebook. And
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: this is not like the first time we've seen this
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: in the Trump era, right? I mean, we have been
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: here like Charlottesville, the Tree of Life Synagogue, the Pipe
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Bomber who tried to assassinate the Obamas and the Clintons,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: El Paso. And now this, we have seen the rise
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: of right-wing violence time and time again over the last
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: four years since Donald Trump has been president. And should
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: we be surprised with the rhetoric that he uses?
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, that's the thing. I also think you can,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: of course, go back further and on these issues, of course.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: But even, you know, you think about the way in
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: which the kind of right-wing machine word up to defend
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: George Zimmerman after the killing of Trayvon Martin, right? George Zimmerman,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: an earlier example of this kind of vigilantism. This is
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: a right-wing machine, a propaganda apparatus that has been poised
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: to defend a president like this, to help a president
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: like this in this kind of a kind of fascistic radicalization.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: And I think what is so scary about it is.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: This isn't a top-down instruction in the sense that the
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Trump campaign, the Trump administration, Donald Trump himself, is issuing
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: specific diktats about what he wants to see in the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: formation of militias and the radicalization of his supporters. He
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: simply sort of sends out just relentless incitement, relentless calls
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to violence explicitly, implicitly, right? When the looting starts, the
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: shooting starts. Retweeting just sort of... random acts of violence
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: from black people, from a random black person against a
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: random white person, right? Just to say, just to stoke
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: the tensions and stoke the tensions. And the goal is to,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: you know, there's this term stochastic terrorism, which is What
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: happens when a figure like Trump or an ideological group
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: sort of puts out a bunch of information and just
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: hopes lone wolves and random people kind of take up
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: the mantle, don't act at the direction of, but act
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: at the behest of some kind of a terrorist organization
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: or a radical element. And what we have here now,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: I think, is something like stochastic fascism, where Trump pumps
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: out a bunch of hate, pumps out a bunch of misinformation,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: pumps out a bunch of calls to violence, and he
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: just waits to see what happens. And what's so terrifying
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: all about that is that the decision is not in
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Trump's hands once he does that. The decision is in
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: the hands of a troubled 17-year-old kid. It's in the
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: hands of a random person who's gonna decide to take
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: matters into his own hand. It kind of takes politics
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: and it turns it violent and it puts it into
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: the hands You know, what we talk about, what happens
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: in the news, who lives, who dies, then becomes determined
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: by some of the most troubled and broken people in
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: our society.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And, you know, to all the fucking both sides conversations
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: out there, like show me a single elected Democratic official
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: or one figure on the left, one figure on the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: left who stands up and encourages violence or incites violence
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: the way that Trump has. When the looting starts, the
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: shooting starts. When he tells people at his rallies to
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: get aggressive with protesters. When he talks about the cops
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: whacking someone's head when they throw them in the car.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: How many times has he done this? How many times?
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: And then at his convention highlights a white rich couple.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: who pointed guns at Black Lives Matter protesters and rewards
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: them with a speaking slot at the Republican National Convention,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: allows them to talk to the nation. What signal does
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: that send to other people who might want to do them?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: What does that say when the person with the biggest
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: bully pulpit in the nation is saying that every day?
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, those people are charged with a crime, right?
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: He's elevating criminals, people who break the law to point
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: guns and scare people and threaten to kill people. I
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: think what Jamal Bowie said about this was it was
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: just it was perfectly said, which is a president who
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: speaks of shooting people in the street, who elevates those
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: who threaten to shoot people in the street, cannot be
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: separated from the individual who does eventually shoot people in
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the street. It is not that complicated.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: It's right. And it's also it's also a mixed message
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: for Trump politically. So, you know, on Sunday, he tweets
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: nearly 100 times. tweets that included attacking Black Lives Matter
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: protesters as agitators and thugs, accusing protesters of staging a
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: coup against him, retweeted an OAN tweet that said that.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Then he attacked Democrats for not controlling the violence and
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: celebrated his own violent supporters at the same time. Doesn't
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: his support for right-wing militia types and MAGA folks who
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: fire tear gas at people sort of complicate his law
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and order message?
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I actually asked Cornell Belcher about this,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: and it is a contradiction, right? You know, there's a
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: contradiction in his messaging around race, which is, I'm compassionate
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: and not racist. And by the way, the protesters are thugs,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: and you're justified to point weapons at them. He wants
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: to seem strong and in control, and that he can
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: stop violence while also encouraging violence on the part of
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: his allies. and stirring enough trouble to make it the
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: central issue of 2020, right? He wants to say like,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: I'll stop the violence, but look at all this crazy violence.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Don't talk about COVID. He says, Joe Biden encourages violence.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: And then he says, check out these vigilante heroes. Check
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: out these violent heroes. He says, I'm very strong and
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: very tough. And then he says, the media is being
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: mean to me, right? He does these things over and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: over again. There's just everything he says has a contradiction.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And the point Cornell makes is that sometimes that can
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: be effective, right? It sometimes can be effective to have
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: two competing messages at the exact same time, right? He
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: can speak to one group of people Yeah, I mean.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: The problem comes when they start mixing them together. Like,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I think the campaign made a huge mistake when Kellyanne
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Conway went out there and said the more violence, the
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: better it is for Trump because she gave up the game. Similarly,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Kayleigh McEnany was asked if Trump would specifically condemn the
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: violence perpetrated by Kyle Rittenhouse. And she said she wouldn't
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: do it. He wouldn't condemn the violence. She said he's
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: not going to get into that. So on the day
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: that after days of Trump and people on the right
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: saying Joe Biden is not condemning the violence, Joe Biden
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: is not doing enough to condemn the violence. And then
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden goes out today and we'll talk about this
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: in his speech and sort of condemns the violence. And Trump,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: chooses not to condemn the violence of his own political supporters.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: And I just think you can't, you can't run on
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: a message that you're going to control the violence and
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: that it's all the Democrats' fault when you don't say
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: anything about your own supporters and you, in fact, you
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: actively encourage them. You know, it's just, it's a completely
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: mixed message. I mean, like there is, you know, we'll
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: talk about sort of the polling. I know you talked
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: about with Cornell, like the problem for Trump is there
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: is polling evidence that support for Black Lives Matter protests
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: has declined and concerned about violence and looting has increased.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: It's mostly among white voters and Republicans, and it's particularly
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: in swing states like Wisconsin. But the same polling, the
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: same polling shows that views of how Trump has handled
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: race relations and public safety and crime have stayed the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: exact same, the exact same. So when it is about Trump,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: when Trump gets involved in the equation, people, negative partisanship
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: kicks in and people start realizing that like he has
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: not done anything to fix these problems because he's been
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the incumbent for the last four years. And that's from,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: so even as, even as attitudes might shift a little
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: bit about the protests themselves and the violence in the cities,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: attitudes about how Trump has handled them are just not
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: changing at all. At least so far it could change, but.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think, you know, there's been a few
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: people that have pointed it out that fear that this
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: issue is shifting is not necessarily justified. by the polling yet.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's reason not to sort of ask
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: these questions. I think you're right, right? Like that Biden's
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: approval is not tied to the approval of the protest,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, approval of the protest overall
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: has shifted. And it's also true that the further we
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: get away from the Republican convention, I find it hard
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: to imagine the lingering memory of Donald Trump, nice guy,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: anti-racist will stay in people's minds given what he's saying.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, it does seem like what
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Trump wants to do is two things. One, he wants
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: to make protests about crime, not race. And he wants
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: to talk about protests because he knows as much as
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: this is a mixed bag for him as an issue,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: it is a better issue for him than the ongoing
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: economic crisis and pandemic that has leveled the country. And
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: so figuring out, you know, this is something that Cornell
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: talked about as well, but making sure that we as
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Democrats are talking about both, right? Not ceding the territory
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: on issues of race, not ceding the territory on what's
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: taking place in the cities, while at the same time
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: making sure we're making an argument around what's going on
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: in the economy and what's going on in the pandemic.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is a coverage issue too because remember
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: in June when the numbers for Trump were horrible on
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: these issues and Biden had basically his biggest lead of
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the campaign, what were we seeing on TV? We were
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: seeing mostly peaceful protests. Then we were seeing police brutality,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: not just in the killing of George Floyd, but against
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: protesters every day. And we were seeing Trump trying to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: gas peaceful protesters.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: And we weren't seeing as much. We were seeing some
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: of it, especially on local news. We weren't seeing as
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: much looting and destruction and stuff like that. As time
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: has gone on, right wing media has basically been playing
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: scenes of destruction and looting on loop 24 hours a day.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: And we haven't seen as many images of peaceful protests,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: even though they're continuing. We just haven't really seen that
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: breakthrough to the media coverage. And we had a week
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: at the Republican convention where Trump was actually relatively disciplined
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: in his own messages about this because he didn't say
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: much during the week. And then his speech was scripted afterwards.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Now that's gone. Now Trump, as we saw over the weekend,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: is tweeting a hundred times about, you know, saying all
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: kinds of horrible things. So the old Trump is back
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and we'll see what that means for how opinions form
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: on this.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: He over the weekend took a, made sure he said, protesters,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: your ass.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: It's just.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: It takes like one day to get back to normal.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Your ass.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: It was like 72 hours and he was back off
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: the fucking wagon.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: He means protesters. My ass.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I couldn't understand that.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I think he meant to say, protesters, protesters, my ass.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: They're rioters. They're Antifa. But I think he saw the
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: phrase my ass and he thought, I'm not talking about
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: my ass. I don't care what the expression is. Your ass.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Protesters, your ass.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: They're your ass. I'm sensitive about my ass. I'm sensitive
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: about my shape, famously. That's why my suits are so billowy.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Your ass. We're not talking about my ass. I'm the president.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about how Joe Biden is handling all this. So,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: ever since George Floyd was murdered, Biden has praised peaceful
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: protest and condemned any kind of violence or destruction. He's
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: said it many times. But Trump and the right-wing media and...
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: you know, a good number of Twitter pundits have decided
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: that Joe Biden must say that again. He must say
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: it more. So he spoke today in Southwestern Pennsylvania. And
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: on Sunday, he released a long statement that condemned the violence,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: but also pointed out that Trump is recklessly encouraging violence.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: He said in his speech today, quote, Trump may believe
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: that tweeting about law and order makes him strong, but
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: his failure to call on his supporters to stop seeking
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: conflict shows just how weak he is. Does anyone believe
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: there will be less violence What do you think about
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's message on the protests and violence and Trump's
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: role in both? I really appreciate it. I thought the
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: statement he put out over the weekend was so strong
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: and so simple. I decry violence on the left and
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: on the right. I call on Trump to do the same. Basically,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: he won't.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I think the speech today reaffirms that and then also
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: makes sort of a larger, sort of more hopeful argument
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: about the comparison. You know, I think it's the right thing.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: I think he's doing the right things. You know, I don't,
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I say that not just, not like sort of looking
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: at the crosstabs, but just as someone observing what he's saying.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I think it sounds right. It feels like it's meeting
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the moment. It's a statement about how sad and broken
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: our politics is generally that we're in this debate right
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: now about what Joe Biden needs to do to decry violence, right?
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, all these sort of right-wing pundits.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Tim Miller wrote a piece about this in The Bulwark
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: that all these right-wing pundits, especially the ones that like
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: to keep Trump at arm's length, they want to have
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a debate about everything other than Trump, right? They want
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: to have a debate about everything other than Trump inciting violence.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: And one example that I thought actually spoke to just
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: how much of a kind of bias there is against
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Democrats in this debate is Laura Ingraham, right? She has
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest platforms in conservatism. She and Tucker Carlson,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Sean Hannity, every night sort of fanning the flames of
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: right-wing violence. said, why hasn't Joe Biden spoken out sooner
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: against violence? And she linked to the statement from March.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: She linked to the old statement because he's been doing
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: it over and over again. They are relying on short memories.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: They are relying on misinformation. They're relying on smears of
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden, because I think Joe Biden has been kind
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: of pretty consistent on his message for the better part
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: of a year, if not longer.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was a very strong speech
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: today for Biden. And I think it was strong because
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: it could have been purely defensive sounding, right? Everyone told
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, well, at least the right told Joe Biden,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: even though it was bad faith. And then you had
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: a bunch of Twitter pundits, and then you had the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: George Packer piece, Biden must go to Kenosha, right? And everyone.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: So they all told him that he needed to, you
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: must say that you condemn the violence. And he did, right?
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: He said from the speech, rioting is not protesting, looting
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: is not protesting, setting fires is not protesting, it's lawlessness,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: plain and simple. He also had a Pretty funny line
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: in the speech, I thought, where he said, ask yourself,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: do I look like a radical socialist with a soft
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: spot for rioters? Really?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: I'm glad he did that, too.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things that everyone just left and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: right sort of understood. You're like, yeah, no, that's crazy.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Of course you're not. But that wasn't most of the speech.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Most of the speech was him going on offense against
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump for what we were just saying, right? Like,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: do you feel safer in Donald Trump's America? Ask yourself
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: that question when you go to the polls. Like, do
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: you think there will be less violence if Donald Trump
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: is reelected again? Ask yourself that question. And then he
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: broadened the issue out to not just crime and public safety,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: which is the territory Trump wants to fight on. But
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: he started talking about the pandemic because, again, we're talking
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: about safety in the context of some looting that is
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: going on in some cities versus a pandemic that is
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: forcing most people in the country to stay home out
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of fear that they may get sick and die. That
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: is what, that is what we're talking about. And it's,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and Biden today was, I think, trying to shift the
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: debate back to that. And I think it was, I
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: think it was really smart. And the other thing he
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: did was, and Dan Pfeiffer wrote about this in the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: message box today. He, instead of talking about Trump as
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a scary authoritarian, right? Which yes, of course, Trump has
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: authoritarian tendencies. I'm scared shitless of them. But again, the
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: more we depict him as a scary authoritarian, the more
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: some voters find that as comforting because at least he'll
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: restore law and order as a strong man, right? And
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: what Dan suggested and what Biden did today is to
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: go after Donald Trump as weak and ineffective. He has
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: been president for four years. He has done nothing about
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: any violence. He has done nothing about the pandemic. He
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: has done nothing about the recession. He is weak. He
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: can't denounce his supporters because he is the candidate who
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: is held hostage to radical supporters. Not what he claims
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden is. He's the one who's held hostage. He's
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: the weak one. He can't do anything. He's the one
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: who fucking hid in the White House in the bunker
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: when there were protests outside the White House. Like, the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: more you call him weak and ineffective, the more it
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: resonates not just with Democratic voters, but independent voters and
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: even soft Republican voters who actually just want a president
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: who will lead and get stuff done. So I was
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: going to ask you a little bit about the sort of,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I'm calling it a very low-level Democratic freakout over Biden,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the crime issue, the polls. I know you're going to
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: talk to Cornell about this, but how much do you
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: think it's warranted? Why is it happening? Is it just
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: everyone's scared?
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I think everyone's scared. I think everyone's scared, and I
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: think everyone carries around a lot of 2016 fear. I
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: also think, and this is a point Cornell makes, is...
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: it has not been wrong in this country to bet
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: on racism. It has not been wrong in this country
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: to bet on Donald Trump's ability to use racism to
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: win or to change the subject. And I think that
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: there are people that are, I think, worrying fairly. And
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: then I think there are people who are allowing some
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: pretty anecdotal evidence to lead them to spit up a
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: bigger narrative that's maybe not earned, right? Like, you know,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: if Donald Trump wins the White House, it'll be because
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: of what happened this week. There's not a lot to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: justify saying that. Is there reason to be concerned about
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the fact that there's been a shift away in terms
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: of support for these protests? As I think, as you
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: pointed out, images of the protests have become more about
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: kind of the unrest taking place in some of these
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: cities at night. I think that that's a reasonable thing
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to be concerned about, whether or not it'll impact Joe Biden,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: even though it hasn't really borne out in the polls,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: I think is a reasonable thing to be concerned about.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: The fact that, you know, to your point, polling in
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: terms of Donald Trump's approval on crime hasn't moved. At
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the same time, crime is one of the few issues
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: which polling has shown he has an advantage over Biden on.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And if he can shift the conversation back to that,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: clearly they think that that's at least a place where
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: they have a chance of winning the debate or liking
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: the terms of the debate. So I think to what
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Dan would always say is worry, don't panic. And I
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: think it's a reasonable thing to be concerned about and
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: to watch and to make sure we're not being sanguine about.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think Joe Biden's statement
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: over the weekend, the speech he gave today seems to
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: be the speeches and words of a candidate in a
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: campaign that understand this and are striking that balance really effectively.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And like, kind of really like, and are, by the way, like,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: not being like, are kind of being responsive to what's
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: taking place in the news without being, I think, kind
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: of jerked around by Twitter.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean, look.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Fear has driven the entire 2020 race from the beginning.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: It drove the primary. It's driving the general election. And
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: it is, you know, there was plenty of fear in
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: 2016 that Trump would win, and he did. The fear
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that after seeing four years of Trump, he may be
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: reelected is incredibly intense among a lot of people and
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who are pundits and a lot
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: of people who are Democratic voters and Democratic strategists and journalists, even. Like,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I get it. I get it, you know? But I think...
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know what will happen. We don't know.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: We say we're out of the prediction business. And, you know,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I have been getting over the last couple of days,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people. How's it going? Is it going
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: to be OK? I don't know if it's going to
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: be OK. I just don't. I'm not going to tell
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: you it's going to be OK. All I'm going to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: tell you is like we have to focus on what
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: we can control and not worry as much about what
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: we can't control.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: And like Joe Biden has had has right now in
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: the polls, according to 538, an eight point lead.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: An eight point lead would be a blowout bigger than
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Obama won against John McCain in the midst of a
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: financial crisis where John McCain's party was the incumbent party
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: dealing with that crisis. That was in 2008. That was
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: a seven point win. That was a blowout. Joe Biden
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: is now at eight points. We are in a more
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: polarized country with closer elections than we had in 2008.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: So.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: It was, I always, now, is it possible that Joe
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Biden wins by eight points or nine points? It's possible.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's likely in a polarized environment like this, right?
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump won Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin by like less than
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: a percentage point. So is Joe Biden going to win
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: them by five or six points? It's unlikely because states
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: don't move that much in four years. It's possible, but
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: is it likely?
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: Not really.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: So therefore, you're going to get polls narrowing. And the
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: first people that are going to go back to Trump
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: are sort of soft Republicans. White voters, especially non-college white
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: voters that are in some of these swing states. So
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: we were probably likely to see that anyway. Does what
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: happened last week, what's happening in Kenosha accelerate it? We
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: don't know. Like one thing I would suggest is if
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: you want to know what's on voters' minds and you
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: want to know how to persuade them, start calling them.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Adopt a state, text them, call them, have conversations with voters,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: figure out what's on their mind. Maybe you'll find out
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: that they're worried about the violence. Maybe you'll find out
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: that they're worried about something else. You know, like the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: best way to do that, control what we can control,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: which is to spend every day persuading voters instead of
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: looking for barometers of where everyone is at every moment.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I also do think like,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons people feel afraid, one
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: of the reasons people feel scared among many others is
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: it's saying is the race tightening is I think sometimes
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: a proxy for saying, how is this close? How is
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: it that we're going to be close to election and
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: it's going to be tight? And I think the answer
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: there is obviously there's very sort of complicated answers to that,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: but the simple answer is the structural, cultural, political crisis
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that made someone like Donald Trump possible has not gone
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: away in the four years that he is president. We
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: are trying to fight in six days problems that have
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: been festering and growing over decades. And that is going
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: to be a very challenging job that's going to take
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of hard work and hard politics for years
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: and years to come, even if we manage to remove
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Trump in November. The fundamental problems in our society are there.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: They are headwinds against us. And that means that this
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: election is very scary and it should be. We should
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: be scared because Trump can win. Of course he can.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: And you see, to your point, you see a lot
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: of people are like, I can't believe that still 40%
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: plus of the country thinks this way. And it's hard
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: when it's like, it is, we, you know, we've talked
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: about this before. It is, there's a tendency to divide
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: people into anti-Trump zealots and Trump zealots. And there's no
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: one in between. It is uncomfortable to realize that there
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: is a significant segment of the electorate, especially in swing states,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: who may say, I'm totally with Trump on this law
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: and order crime stuff, but I hate how he's managed
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: the pandemic. So I'm not sure how I'm going to vote.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And if the pandemic's on my mind and that's in
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: the news, I might vote for Joe Biden. And if
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I see more crime, I might vote for Donald Trump.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: When you spend all your time on Twitter, and watching
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the news, you're not primed to think that a lot
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of those people exist in the electorate. They do. And
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: that's like, it's, it's not very fun to realize that,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: but they do. And like, we have to go out
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: and try to get those people to vote for Joe Biden,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: even if they're with Trump on some issues.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: And just, yeah, you know what? The fact that, uh,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: The economy is growing and there is no pandemic and
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: his approval is at 42% and the economy collapses. Our
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: society is shut down and there's an unchecked pandemic that's
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: killed 180,000 people on track to 200,000 by the time
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: we get to the election and his approval rating is 41%.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: that we're that polarized, that's a tragedy. That's awful.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: It's a fucking problem. It's a huge fucking problem. We're
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: not going to fix that problem with this election. Let's
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: just get him out there first. Then we can go.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: That's a long-term problem. No one's saying that Joe Biden
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: is getting elected is going to fix all this shit.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: No, and then we can start to do the very
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: hard work of proving that Democrats were correct to earn
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the vote. That's the hard thing. That's what comes next.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: For now, everyone just feel, you get to feel super
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: shitty till this is done. Real shitty.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: One step at a time. One step at a time.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Just get him out of office first, then we can
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: deal with the larger structural polarization problems in the country.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the latest COVID news. There
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: have been signs over the....
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Cheery, cheery topic. No, actually, this starts with, there have
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: been signs over the last few weeks that the outbreak
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: is slowing, especially in some of the South and Southwestern hotspots.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Here in LA, better numbers, check them all the time.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: John, you should know that I'm at an Airbnb in Temecula.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And things in Temecula, they move a little bit slower,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: How far is Temecula? Where is it? Give us the address.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: California.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: So outbreak is slowing in some places, but cases are
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: now growing in the Midwest. And on Sunday, we had
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: 6 million total cases and more than 180,000 deaths. According
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to the New York Times, quote, nearly half of the
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: top 20 metropolitan areas where new cases per capita rose
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the most over the past two weeks are college towns.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: The University of Alabama alone has more than 1,000 cases. Meanwhile,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Trump has a new pandemic advisor who believes that masks
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: might not make sense, that kids aren't at risk, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: that the United States should embrace a strategy of herd
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: immunity where you just let the virus run through the population,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: which would kill up to 2 million Americans. First question,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: why do you think the pandemic isn't getting quite as
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: much media attention as it was a few months ago
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: or even a few weeks ago?
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's more complicated than attention spans. And
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: we have gotten accustomed to it. It is a kind
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: of new normal. They don't have much more to say.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: We're still failing to contain the virus. We still don't
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: have the national leadership that we would need. And there's
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a kind of fatalism that, well, this is what has happened.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And there's no changing it, even though at any moment,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: at any moment, we are eight weeks away from substantially
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: reducing infections and putting the country on a much better trajectory.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: But we just don't do it in part because we
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: need national leadership and it's absent. And also, you know,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: the president is the assignment editor for the country now.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: He's a chief content officer for Fox News and he
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: has decided that we're going to talk more about law
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and order. And so we do.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: And I also think I think we've been here before.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: We were here in sort of May and early June,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: where there were, there was a series of outbreaks that
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: then declined, that got, that improved, the numbers improved. And
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: we sort of thought we were out of the woods.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And in May and June, we saw a bunch of places,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: LA was one of them, that opened too fast. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: then suddenly the cases went back up again. And so
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: I do think we've sort of, we keep lulling ourselves
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: into thinking that when caseloads decline in some hotspot areas
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: that maybe the virus is like on its way out
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: right and i think what we've seen is in some
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of these hotspots what's happened is a there's been you
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: know another round of closures there has been mask mandates
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately the worst part like so many people have
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: gotten the virus in some of these places that they
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: have not reached herd immunity by any stretch but at
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: least they're getting closer because so many people contracted the
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: virus I think what's happening at colleges right now, and
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: especially in the Midwest, is you're starting to see positivity
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: rates rise now that colleges are open. And I worry
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: that this is going to happen when most schools open
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: in September. And what follows the rise in positivity rates
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: is inevitably a rise in hospitalizations and then a rise
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: in deaths. And instead of having sort of one giant
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: terrifying hotspot like we had in New York in the spring,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: we're starting to see You know, we had Florida and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: then we had Texas and then we had Arizona and
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: now we're going to have the Midwest. And so you're
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: going to see different parts of the country have these
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: outbreaks over time. And, you know, maybe it will start
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: grabbing headlines again once school opens. And I hope not.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: But when schools open and people start contracting it, like
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: that's going to be an unfortunate reason that's going to
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: be in the fucking news again. But it may just happen.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: The other thing is you're starting to see more outbreaks
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: in rural areas. And and also the outbreaks are disproportionately
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: affecting black and Latino Americans. And what's really sad is
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: because of that, you don't see it in the news
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: as much anymore.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And also, you know, it
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: was but months ago that we were told it would
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: be gone by summer and that summer would have some
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: magic ameliorating properties. My fear, too, is like there's Fauci,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: others have said for a long time that once this
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: combines with the flu, once people go back inside in
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: the fall, that we could see like a real resurgence.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: And there's no indication that we're doing what is necessary
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: to prevent that from happening. And the fact that all
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: these schools are opening and closing, opening and closing, not
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: sure what they're going to do. It's all predicated on
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: the lack of leadership from the administration. It's all predicated
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: on the lack of a national strategy, lack of clear
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: direction and consistent guidelines that are being enforced across the country. And,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: you know, we're trapped. We're just trapped.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And it looked, We keep saying it's a lack of strategy,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: but you hear about this new advisor and it's like, actually,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: he's now making clear that the strategy, it's what they
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: said to Jim Acosta after his speech on Thursday, everyone's
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: going to get it eventually. That's basically the official strategy
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: now of this new medical, quote unquote, medical advisor to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, who's basically embracing herd immunity, saying we should
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: be like Sweden. Sweden, which has one of the worst
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: death rates in the world.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: This is the thing that was... It's a bias in
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: our politics generally that long precedes Trump. It's on both sides.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: We just don't like comparing ourselves. Americans do not like
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: comparing themselves to other countries. They just don't. We don't
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: do it. And so we can have a whole Republican
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: convention for a week that's all about how the virus
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: happened because of China and Trump did everything right. And
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: there's very little comparison to what other countries in the
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: exact same circumstance did. There's no comparison to South Korea.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: There's no comparison to Germany. And, you know, I think
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: it sucks, John.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Well, if you think that sucks, one part of the
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: strategy is herd immunity. The other part is rushing a
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: vaccine out the door before the election. On Sunday, FDA
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Commissioner Stephen Hahn told the Financial Times he'd be willing
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: to issue an emergency use authorization to fast track a
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: vaccine before the phase three safety trials are complete. There
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: was a report out of Florida that they were about
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to start a phase three vaccine. vaccine trial there on
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the Oxford vaccine, and it was stopped for political reasons,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: the FDA, because the FDA might now bypass the safety
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: trial and just rush it out the door. This is
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: after Dr. Fauci told Reuters the other week that, quote,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: the one thing you would not want to see with
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: a vaccine is getting an emergency use authorization before you
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: have a signal of efficacy. He said one of the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: dangers of a rush vaccine without a safety trial is
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: that it would make it difficult, if not impossible, for
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: the other vaccines to enroll people in their trial. Trump
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: obviously thinks this would help him win reelection. What do
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: you think of just the political judgment on that?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's like the first thing I thought,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: which is if you stop the safety trial, you actually
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: just create a new safety trial, which is the safety
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: trial of giving it to everybody. That's one. And two,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: this isn't just about a vaccine. There are multiple vaccines
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: being tested. That's the whole point. You want to get
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the results and see which one works best, the one
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: that's most effective. These percentages really matter because the threshold
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: is 50%. It can either reduce symptoms or reduce transmission. Well,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: if one is slightly more effective than another, we're talking
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: about a scale at which that could mean tens of thousands,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: if not more lives on the line. Trump doesn't care
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: about that. Trump's people don't care about that. They just
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: want something. He wants to have a fucking needle in
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: his hand, handed to him by a man in a
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: white coat that he can shove in Dan Scavino's arm
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: on television on October 17th. That's what he wants. He
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: wants somebody giving a shot to Kayleigh McEnany, on television.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: That's all that matters.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: You can see that Democrats have some work to do
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: on this issue, just in the framing, because you can
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: already tell the media is primed to equate vaccine announcement
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: with October surprise, with everyone worried Trump has figured it
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: out and now he's going to win. And I think
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: it is a mistake to believe that Trump announcing a
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: vaccine is going to suddenly make an entire country be like, oh, yeah,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: He has fucked up the pandemic for this many months.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: He has consistently put politics over science. wacky conspiracies over
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: science this whole time. He asked us to drink bleach.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: But after all this time, now he's got the vaccine.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm with this guy, you know? I mean, like
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: the Navigator polling, you know, bears this out. Most people
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: are worried about the negative consequences of moving too fast
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: in a vaccine. Two thirds want Trump to stay out
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: of a vaccine announcement altogether. Even a majority of Trump voters.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: You mean voters don't want Trump in a stethoscope? Mix
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: in beakers, turning on Bunsen burners, spinning the centrifuges.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: 20% of Americans say they'd get a vaccine if Trump
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: announces it, which is a pretty scary number for a
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: lot of reasons. But I do think that like the
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: questions that Democrats and Joe Biden can, and he's already
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: doing this, but the Biden campaign and Democrats have to
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: ask is, which candidate do you trust to deliver a safe,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: effective vaccine to every American? Just ask that question. Who
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: do you trust? Do you trust Donald Trump to give
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: you the safe vaccine or do you trust Joe Biden?
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: It's also worth, I think, pointing out too that like
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: the White House messaging is already starting to, I think
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: they recognize their failures on containment in some way, in
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: some place in there kind of. collective strategy. They know
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: that there's been a grand failure on containment, even they
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: would never say it out loud. And so even in
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: their kind of messaging, they're saying, we've always made the
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: vaccine and medicine the central priority in how we treat
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: the pandemic. So they're already starting to kind of preview
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: that this is part of their big strategy, that their
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: strategy was always to kill 200,000 people and then rush
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: event a vaccine before it was ready. My other question
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: about this is like, In terms of their message calendar,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: how does the rushed unsafe vaccine schedule against Barr's Biden
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: charges that he's going to announce at the Department of Justice?
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Well, John, they have three debates. So you're going to
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: want that on the first debate. You're going to hold
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: up the needle. You got the vaccine. The second debate.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: You get Bill Barr in the audience with a subpoena.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And the third debate, you know, we're going to leave
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: that open because who knows?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: He's going to pardon. He's going to pardon. No, he pardons.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: It's getting too dark. I'm not even going to say.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: He's going to pardon. He's going to bring a bunch
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: of Antifa to the third debate and say that they're
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's secret relatives. His Antifa friends.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: On that note, when we come back, we will have
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Lovett's interview with Obama pollster Cornell Belcher.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: He's a pollster who worked on Barack Obama's campaigns in
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: 2008 and 2012 and the founder of Brilliant Corners Research
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and Strategies. He's also a political analyst for NBC and MSNBC.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Cornel Belcher, welcome back to the show.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me back.
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: I'm honored.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: So we're coming off of the Republican National Convention. I
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: think we've all now had a few days to let
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: the experience pass. marinate. There seem to be these two
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: contradictory messages. You have the St. Louis gun couple, you
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: have Trump stoking fear, these socialists, these protests, they're coming
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: for the suburbs. And then at the same time, they
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: try to share this message that Donald Trump is compassionate,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: the real Donald Trump is kind and empathetic and very
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: hardworking and not a racist. And anyone who says that
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: is really misleading you in a deeply unfair way. They're
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: obviously in contradiction. What is the goal of having those
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: two disparate messages? And do you think it's been effective?
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: I think the, well, let's back up. What they were
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: trying to do in the convention tells me a couple
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: of things. One, it says, because you're right, what was
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: glaring about the convention was every day of the convention
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: and sometimes, for some days, you know, he had more
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: than one speaker trying to validate that Donald Trump was
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: not in fact a racist. And it was so over
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: the top and so obvious that it tells me as
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: a pollster that they're seeing something in their data that
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: tells them that his racism is a disqualifier to a
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: certain swath of voters this time around that wasn't necessarily
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: so in 2016. So it's problematic that in this volatile
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: time where we have so many young people protesting and
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: we see the deaths of unarmed black men by the police,
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: that the idea of electing someone who is a racist
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: and fans racial division is probably not a good idea.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: So they really went in on saying that he, you know,
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: trying to validate and that he wasn't a racist, I
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: think was Herschel Walker's, and I think it hurts my
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: heart that people think he's a racist. So that tells
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: me that his racism is actually problematic to these voters.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: to a certain segment of voters. The other piece is
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: he still was doubling down on some of the most
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: outrageous fear-mongering that you'll ever hear in this ideal that
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: only he can save the suburbs and if Biden wins,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: the suburbs are going to be destroyed. Those are in contradiction.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: And I don't want to say this to come across
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: as as being cynical, but. American history is full of
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: contradictions and people and Americans hold contradictory views. So I
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: don't I actually don't think this is going to hurt him.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of people outside looking
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: in go, well, that doesn't even make any sense. But
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: what of the last several years of Donald Trump has
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: made any sense at all? And he still holds on to,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: depending on the poll, 44, 45 percent of the electorate.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: So I don't think it was going to hurt him.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: I think I'm afraid that some of it, in fact,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: will help him. I think the ideal that him having
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: all these validators, these validators of color, point out that
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: he's not, in fact, a racist, will that give some
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: of the people who think he's a racist a You know,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: some of those white voters in the suburb who are
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable with him on racial stuff, will that make them go, well,
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: maybe he's not a racist? It might.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: So in that context, Trump is going to Kenosha. You
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: have Joe Biden speaking before members of the National Guard,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: both addressing the protests that have followed the shooting of
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Jacob Blake. you know, there's been a kind of mini
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Democratic freakout over the last couple days as to whether
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: or not there's been a shift in attitudes around the protest,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: and therefore that will in some way hurt Joe Biden.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Speaking to, you know, this contradiction Trump is offering, Nate
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Silver said, well, hold on a second. What we're seeing
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: here may not have anything to do with Joe Biden.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: It may actually just have to do with what happens
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: when Donald Trump fades from the story in some way.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: That that actually what we saw was support for the
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: protest was really just born of negative partisanship about how
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: poorly Donald Trump was handling racial unrest and the uprisings
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: that were taking place across our cities. So Republicans who
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: might have been on the fence get this reassuring message
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: around Trump and race. What do you think happens now
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: as the campaign continues, as Donald Trump tweets incendiary things?
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Do you think that message has the ability to stick
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: or do you think he'll begin undoing it as he
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: continues being himself?
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: That's a lot of questions.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: It was a lot of questions. There's a lot of
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: questions in one question, for sure.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: Let me try to unpack some of that. One is,
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: and I think this is really important for the movement.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: If you look at, and I was just doing online
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: folks groups last week, and you do get the sense
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: from especially from some soft Republicans who were initially on
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: the side of the protest, that they are getting uncomfortable.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: And when you look at some of the public polling
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: that's out there now that shows, I think one that
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: was in Wisconsin that showed 42% of the voters there
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: now think that the protests are violent. The progressives are
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: beginning to lose focus the narrative. And that's a real problem.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Because we know most of the protests are not in
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: fact violent. And some of the fact checking has come
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: out to show that a lot of the violence that's unfolding.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: In the protests are actually from right wing groups.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: But nevertheless, I think we are beginning to lose the
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: narrative around this. And that's dangerous. And support for the
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: movement is shrinking, and as St. Paul showed, the support
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: for the movement is shrinking, which shouldn't be surprising if
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: in fact you think that the movement is now violent,
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: which is of course what Donald Trump and Republicans and
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: what Fox News puts out every evening. So we have
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: to adjust. And what I would say from a broader
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: standpoint is, one, we have to figure out how we
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: take back the narrative around the protest. But two, and
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: this is important, John, but it's also tough. It's a
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: tough conversation to have with some of our with some
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: of our folks who feel so passionate about this, is
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: that marching, like Dr. King and the others of the
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: civil rights era understood, marching is only one tool. And
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: I think the dog agrees. Marching and protests are only
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: one tool in.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: The toolbox. And it's a really important tool.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Look, what these young people taking part in these Black
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: Lives Matter protests have done is they've awakened the world
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: to the injustice.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: They've awakened the world to the ugliness.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: And not only in America, but around the globe, people
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: are chanting Black Lives Matter and they're thinking about policing
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: and justice and issues of race different. The protests have
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: done exactly what they were supposed to do, but now
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: we have to be sophisticated. And what are the other
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: tools in the toolbox now for us to in fact
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: use to move.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: Us along towards our goals?
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: And we have to start thinking, Okay, besides the protests,
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: because the protests have done their job. We should declare
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: victory for the protests because we've awakened the world to this.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: And we can now have a discussion about this that's
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: different than it was before the protests started. So what's
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: the next step? And when you think about Democrats in
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: the House passed the Justice and Policing Act, which is
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: the most sweeping reform in criminal justice that we've ever seen.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: And it is, in fact, everything, almost everything that most
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: of the protesters are arguing for, bans chokeholds, bans not warrants,
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: body cams, goes after a qualified immunity. Like, House Democrats
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: heard them and acted on that, on the protests. So
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: the protests have done exactly what it's supposed to. So
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: what's the next step? That bill is sitting, like many
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: other bills, on the desk of Mitch McConnell, catching dust.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: So are the protests the best tool now? Or what
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: are the other tools in our toolbox that we must
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: go to in order to move along this action even further?
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: I think that's the worthwhile conversation now for the movement.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: And I think that's important, right? I think we're for
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: the protests, but the protests have done their job. Now
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: we must pull from the toolbox and move it forward.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: So I am.
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: Concerned that the narrative, we're beginning to lose the narrative
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: around the protests.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: But also I'm more concerned that we're not seriously focusing
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: on what are the other tools that we must now
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: pick up. in order to move our agenda forward. I
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: think we have to have a real conversation about what
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: are the next steps.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: So one difference between 2016 and now is we're in
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: the middle of a crisis, a massive pandemic. And obviously
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: one goal Donald Trump has, as Fox News assigned an
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: editor on Twitter, is to get the conversation away from COVID,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: get the conversation away from the pandemic and move it
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: back towards crime because it's an issue in which he
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: thinks he has an advantage. How much do you think
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: the goal for Democrats should be to refocus back on
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: the economic crisis and the pandemic, both of which Donald
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Trump has made worse and inflamed?
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: It's not an either or.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: It's not. It's not an either or. There are two
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: pandemics hitting America. One is COVID and one is the
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: continuation of racial division. And so I reject the ideal
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: that we can't walk and chew gum. We can't have
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: a conversation that is about healing America's racial divide and
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: a conversation about healing or getting America back to work. Hell,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: if we can't do that, well, then perhaps we shouldn't
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: be in power.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: So to that end, Democrats, one thing we're trying to
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: do is reach people who have been sort of traditionally marginalized,
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: traditionally had their votes suppressed, traditionally have been sort of
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: underrepresented in elections. And we're trying to figure out how
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to reach those people. To your mind, what do you
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: think is the best message? You know, we're doing this
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: through Every Last Vote, which is the kind of effort
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: that we've launched. To your mind, what is the best
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: message Democrats can be using right now to speak to
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: those voters, to make them feel confident that their votes
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: will be reflected and counted, and to get them to
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: see the value of turning out to vote?
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: That's a good question. And I wish there was a
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: silver bullet, but there's not a silver bullet. And I'm
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: going to answer that question, but I'm going to go
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: back before I answer that question. Because the point that
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: you brought up about what so many in our progressive
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: community are passing as conventional wisdom, let's just not talk
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: about that. Let's just talk about economics. It is the problem.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: It is partially why... you know, we can never sort of,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: we keep kicking this can down the road because progressives
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: just don't want to talk about race and racism. They
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: always want to talk about something else. Republicans have historically
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: understood the power of race and racism and tribalism in
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: this country. And that's why for the last several decades,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: they've been a lot more successful than us. And in 2016,
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: And moving forward, oh, it wasn't about race. It was
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: about economics. And if we just come up with a
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: better economics argument, we can, you know, all these voters
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: who are not voting for us, if we can just
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: come up with a better economic argument. I mean, gee,
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, my God, how many times are we going
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: to fall for that trap? It's not simply about the economics, stupid.
• 57:06
  Speaker 5: It is, in fact, sometimes, quite frankly, in America, it
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: is about race and racism. And let's not keep trying
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: to avoid that conversation, especially when Republicans keep exploiting it.
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: I mean, it is malpractice of us to say that,
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: you know, the Republicans are trying to exploit race and racism, so.
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: We're gonna completely ignore it.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Although given their history of being very successful at it, again,
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: we're gonna completely ignore it and try to talk about
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: sort of just economics. I mean, it's ridiculous. And by
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: the way, as a person of color, It is insulting
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: and disrespectful, because you know why people that look like
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: me are dying? They're dying from COVID, but they're also
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: dying from racism. And I'm tired of racism. I'm probably
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: going to die a lot younger than you, John, because
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: of racism. So let's stop avoiding the conversation. Let's try
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: to actually solve the goddamn problem. And if the Democratic
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: Party isn't going to be about that, People of color
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: have to rethink about what we're going to do politically.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: So I think the Democratic Party better be about that
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: and not simply be about, oh, we're not going to
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: pretend that racism isn't there. We're going to just talk
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: about something else. Well, goddamn that. No, we're not doing
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: that anymore. And all these young people on the street who,
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: and that's where I'm bringing it full circle, those young
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: people on the street who we need to.
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: Vote in 2020.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: Those 5 million or so Obama voters who sat out
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: In 2016, you better engage them in the conversation that
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: is real with them. And it's not simply about raising
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: the minimum wage. It is about life and death. And
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: it is about a system that is structurally tilted against
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: them historically and is taking their lives and is beating
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: them down. And if Democrats can't engage that, well, then
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: God damn it, Democrats don't deserve their vote.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: So at this moment, if you were talking to Joe
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Biden and telling him what he should do, how he
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: should address this, how he should reflect that in his message,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: what he should do to honor what you're saying, what
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: would you be telling him to do right now?
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: I would say, well, first I would say, let's put
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: some dollars behind the fantastic plan that they've already put
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: out there. I mean, they have one of the beauties
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: of this past Democrat primary season is everyone had a
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: plan for Black and Latino voters, right?
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: My favorite was, of course, what did he call it?
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: A Douglas plan, which was Mayor Pete's plan. I think
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: it was a Douglas plan. All of them had a
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: plan for taking on structural racism. Biden has a plan.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: In fact, Biden's plan is kind of out there. I mean,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Biden is talking about using the Fed to shrink the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: wealth gap. I mean, that's great stuff. No people of
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: color know it. No people of color have heard of it.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 6: You know, we did folks about two weeks ago with
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 6: actually after he came out with that plan and after
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 6: Democrats past justice and policing.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: And for those voters who didn't, those Obama voters who
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: didn't turn out in 2016 or voted third party in 2016,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: they haven't heard of.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: Any of that shit.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: They have no idea. So the conversation, so the question
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: really is, you have.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: What you need.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, part of the issue is so often these,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: Some of these voters think that Democrats aren't really fighting
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: for them. Democrats take their vote for granted and aren't
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: really fighting for them.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: Well, show and tell. What's your plans to address these
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: issues of structural racism that have economic consequences, that have
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: health care consequences, that have life and death consequences? what's
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: your plan for doing, for addressing that? I think they
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: have the plan. The question is, will they put the
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: resources towards telling those stories and empower people on the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: campaigns to validate those stories and also to tell those stories?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: Quick note, because I know we have to go right
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: now because it reminds.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: Me of 2016. Hillary Clinton actually had a pretty good
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: criminal justice reform platform. And now we're doing focus groups
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: in North.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: Carolina, in Charlotte, shortly after.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: There was unrest in Charlotte because of policing issues. And
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: we showed them the platform that Hillary Clinton had put out.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: And they were like, whose platform is this? Is this
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: Black Lives Matter platform? Because this is exactly what we're
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: looking for. many of them would not believe that was
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton's platform on justice, you know, police reform, because
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: surely if this was her platform, they wouldn't know about it.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: They would have heard about it. The campaign would have
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: put it out there, right? I hope we don't fall
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: in that trap again. I think Joe Biden, Joe Biden's
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: a good man who's done a service to this country
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: and has certainly served communities of color and young people.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: And he has a plans that would benefit a lot
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: of those young people who look, who are marching right now,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: who look like parts of the Obama coalition who sat
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: out 2016. But I think the Democratic Party needs to
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: engage them because like I've famously said before, we grew
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: the electorate with Obama, but they're Obama voters, not necessarily
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: Democratic voters. So we've got to work very hard to
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: bring them back.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: Into the fold.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for giving us all this time.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I just want to ask one last question, which is
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people listening to this, I
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: think it's chastening. I think it's important that they sort
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: of take what you're saying to heart. But what would
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: you say to people listening, the most effective thing they
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: can do right now to be most helpful, not as pundits,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: not as people inside the Biden campaign, but just people
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: out there trying to help?
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: Neighbor to neighbor. Have a conversation, right? And before I
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: was an Obama guy, I was a Howard Dean guy. Um, and,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: and there's no better, there's, there's no better voice than
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: the voice.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: Of people that, you know, uh, and what we did in, in.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: 2005, 2006, where, you know, we put money in the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: States and we built grassroots organizations around neighbor and neighbor. Um,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: because of COVID a lot of the, the ability of
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: campaigns to do these massive canvases are being taken away.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: So go to your neighbor. Go to your circle that you,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying go spread COVID, but your circle that
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: you're already in. Have these conversations. Campaigns can't do massive
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: canvassing and neighbor to neighbor programs right now because of COVID.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: But do it within your circle of people. and get
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: them to vote early.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: The issue is, how I think we lose this election is,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: is the chaos and confusion that Donald Trump and Republicans
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: are trying to put around voting. The more votes we
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: get in early, the better it is. Have these conversations
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: about these important issues, neighbor to neighbor, because we can't
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: canvas right now. and make sure they get out and
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: turn out, they vote early, and not wait for the
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: last minute, and certainly not wait for the last minute
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: to mail in their ballots. Because this isn't about, it's
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: not even about sort of the conventional issues. After this election,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: if we get through this election, we can talk about
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: tax reform. We can talk about regulation. We can talk
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: about whether or not big businesses have too much red
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: tape they have to deal with. We can talk about
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: how we deal with border security. Those are secondary issues.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: What's at stake in this election is literally the life
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: and death of our democracy, and none of those other
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: issues matter if our democracy dies.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: Cornell Belcher, thank you so much for taking the time.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: It's good to talk to you.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's always my pleasure.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Cornell for joining us today, and we'll talk
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: to you guys later this week. Have a cheery, optimistic week.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, man. Oh, man. Bye, guys.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: Caroline Rustin, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim. who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: every week.