Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Strictly Come Hamster - Season One (featuring Gareth Bowley & Toby Hadoke)

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Strictly Come Hamster - Season One (featuring Gareth Bowley & Toby Hadoke) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:00
  We made it. I don't believe it.
• 0:04
  London 1965 here. We're two years out.
• 0:07
  Oh, watch two years amongst friends.
• 0:09
  Well, I'm just going to press that button.
• 0:17
  Run. Let's
• 0:29
  prepare to the Daleks time travelling for a while.
• 0:32
  Give the Doctor a breather anyway.
• 0:33
  Yes, where he is right now. Hey Doctor, wherever you are.
• 0:39
  Someone coming? Goodbye, Doctor.
• 0:40
  Thanks for the ride. What's fun, Doctor?
• 0:42
  Goodbye. Welcome back to Strictly Calm
• 1:18
  Hamster. My name is Joe Ford and I did
• 1:22
  have a quote ready for the start of this episode.
• 1:24
  What shall I say? Have you ever wondered what it
• 1:27
  would be like to be on a podcast called Strictly Come Hamster?
• 1:31
  Have you? Yeah.
• 1:33
  You'll all be bloody exiles by the time this episode's
• 1:35
  finished. I am immediately going to hand
• 1:38
  you over to my darling Co host, Mr. Rod Brown.
• 1:41
  Hello, Rod. Good evening, Joe.
• 1:43
  How are you? I'm marvellous, thank you.
• 1:46
  I'm finally watching a good season of classic Who instead of
• 1:48
  all these new series episodes. Thank you very much.
• 1:50
  We are. We're in season one.
• 1:51
  On which season one is this? Because we've now got three of
• 1:55
  them, I think this is probably the original and the best.
• 1:59
  We've got season one, series one and season.
• 2:03
  One season one, yeah, it's. Getting very that's.
• 2:06
  Very confused. Yeah, I mean, this is the one
• 2:08
  where I feel knackered watching it because we've got expeditions
• 2:13
  across mutant infested jungles, we've got tracks over mountains,
• 2:17
  we're crossing plateaus and Gobi deserts, we take trips all
• 2:23
  across Marinus. But we have got a vortex
• 2:25
  manipulator. But only if you're conveniently
• 2:28
  stood in front of a black drape to always work.
• 2:31
  And then finally you've got that long walk through the French
• 2:34
  countryside. I mean, it's no wonder William
• 2:36
  Arnold needed to stand in for that bit of location filming.
• 2:40
  But yeah, let's get on with it. And to help us sort out our
• 2:43
  garden of peace from our sea of death, from our snows of terror
• 2:47
  or indeed our forest of fear, we're going to be joined by two
• 2:50
  very special guests. One is a returning guest who we
• 2:53
  managed to turn to the dark side last time, so heaven knows
• 2:56
  what's in store today. And the other is a hamster.
• 3:00
  First, we have a Virgin hamster contributor on today's show,
• 3:04
  very much a friend of the podcast.
• 3:06
  He's a man, I believe, who uses his mouth professionally, so
• 3:10
  it's no wonder that we've got him on this show.
• 3:12
  Suddenly he just perked up. Gareth, we'll talk, we'll talk.
• 3:16
  I'm. Trying to blast everyone's ears
• 3:18
  out. And these gentlemen, of course,
• 3:21
  are going to help us decide which story is going to be
• 3:23
  lifting that incredibly famous recursion glitter ball and which
• 3:27
  is going to be forced to stand still on the spot for all
• 3:31
  eternity, pretending to run whilst having limp branches hit
• 3:35
  in their face. So let's welcome today's guests.
• 3:39
  Toby, would you like to introduce yourself?
• 3:41
  Hello, my name's Toby Halo and I exist solely to spoil the
• 3:45
  Blu-ray range for people by appearing on it too often, and I
• 3:51
  like CDs, ice cream, and the TV series Doctor Who.
• 3:54
  In which order? The the the reverse order to
• 3:58
  which I sent it. Excellent.
• 4:01
  I wouldn't have believed you otherwise.
• 4:04
  I don't really like CDs, but yeah, I'd do it in three, didn't
• 4:09
  I? Well, World Peace ice cream and
• 4:12
  Doctor Who is what I like. World Peace ice cream.
• 4:14
  Oh, I just like Miss World. I like.
• 4:18
  I like animals. Animals, Ice Cream and Doctor
• 4:23
  Who. Old people.
• 4:25
  Old people well, I watch a programme where old people have
• 4:28
  to turn into young people. So or or you know, you get so no
• 4:33
  fucking you watch a show that makes me feel increasingly old
• 4:37
  every year so. The abuse.
• 4:40
  Has already started and Gareth, would you like to introduce
• 4:43
  yourself? Thank you.
• 4:44
  Yeah, my name is Gareth Boley. Some listeners may know my voice
• 4:48
  as Captain Joshua Underwood from Starship Excelsior or Jomon
• 4:54
  Tovar Smith from Outpost. So yes, this is my first time so
• 4:59
  please be gentle. Can you do the whole?
• 5:01
  Podcast in one of those voices, please.
• 5:03
  Don't tell me it's. Definitely got to be the hype.
• 5:07
  Well, we we could do we could do a crossover then, because I'm
• 5:11
  Toby the tram engine and Thomas and friends.
• 5:19
  Unfortunately, I'm just Joe forward.
• 5:22
  From my house very, very quickly, couldn't I?
• 5:26
  Yeah, it already is. It's like a Monty Python sketch.
• 5:29
  Get on with it quick. Right, so we are doing series
• 5:34
  one or season one. And before we get into it, let's
• 5:38
  just get everyone's gut feeling. I'm guessing none of us were
• 5:40
  around in 1963. So just give us a a quick
• 5:44
  overview of how you feel about this auspicious season, Toby.
• 5:50
  Well, I think there's something beautiful about it because
• 5:52
  there's something so thrilling. I think just about watching them
• 5:58
  working out how to make the show.
• 6:00
  So I think there's something and and there is a mystique, I think
• 6:03
  to these episodes. But even though thankfully,
• 6:06
  because most of them exist, we we, you know, it's possible to
• 6:09
  know these stories very well. There is still, I've just been
• 6:12
  doing because from, from my podcast, I do these deep diets
• 6:14
  because I stupidly decided to do them in chronological order.
• 6:17
  And, and, and actually looking at these, you know, every single
• 6:20
  shot and every single set and every single scene going through
• 6:23
  script to screen and all of that.
• 6:25
  There's something about the decisions that they make that
• 6:29
  you think, God, if you made a slightly different decision that
• 6:31
  this would be the series as the series would be a very, very
• 6:35
  different series. And it's really interesting to
• 6:37
  see how quickly actually what is Doc, what Doctor Who could have
• 6:44
  been compared to what it actually is.
• 6:47
  And what it still is today, I think still has its roots very
• 6:51
  firmly in the decisions that they made in that first season.
• 6:57
  And I and I so so as well as just enjoying it because I enjoy
• 7:01
  Doctor Who and I like the nostalgia and I like black and
• 7:03
  white Doctor and I like the pacing and, and all of that.
• 7:06
  There is there is something magical about watching Doctor
• 7:09
  Who being a new thing and yet being so extraordinarily right,
• 7:16
  so quickly. I don't want anyone to throw
• 7:19
  fruit at me or anything like this when I make this
• 7:21
  suggestion. But I do think there's a couple
• 7:23
  of times when they've returned to season one when they've sort
• 7:27
  of been resetting the show again and again.
• 7:29
  I wonder if season 19 is an attempt to do this sort of
• 7:32
  thing. And.
• 7:35
  Series 11. Thank you.
• 7:36
  Don't throw things at me Series 11 as well.
• 7:39
  Yeah. So I think I think it's a a good
• 7:41
  template to sort of kick things off again, whether that works or
• 7:43
  not in the times they try and do it.
• 7:45
  But so anyway, it's not my turn over to Gareth.
• 7:49
  Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very
• 7:52
  nice piece of television from start to end.
• 7:54
  The the surprising thing about it is that variety that you've
• 7:58
  got there, you know, no two weeks are the same.
• 8:01
  And also, although we never necessarily think about it,
• 8:04
  there is an arc here in this particular series, which is the
• 8:07
  development of all the regulars from where they start to where
• 8:10
  they get to at the end, and that constant Will Ian and Barbara
• 8:13
  get home every week. Although it wasn't there when it
• 8:16
  was actually broadcast, I did have a word with my father who
• 8:20
  was who did watch it when he was little, not Doctor Who found,
• 8:22
  but he did watch it. And he told me that for him and
• 8:26
  his family at the time, the historical stories were the
• 8:30
  pieces of significance for them because it was stuff that wasn't
• 8:32
  necessarily taught about that much at the time.
• 8:35
  So they would latch onto things that were displayed for them and
• 8:37
  get the information that way. So education and entertainment
• 8:41
  in one I'm very. Reefy and fantastic.
• 8:45
  Joe. Well, I love it and I, I
• 8:48
  absolutely love it. I don't think there's another
• 8:51
  period of Doctor Who where the idea of travelling through time
• 8:55
  and space ever feels as realistic or as authentic as
• 9:00
  certainly in the first couple of stories here, that sort of
• 9:03
  brutal realism. And I can absolutely see why
• 9:06
  they pushed away from that. And you can see that happening
• 9:09
  towards the end of the season as Dennis Spooner comes in going,
• 9:13
  no, we're not having this, we're going to have a bit more fun.
• 9:16
  But I do love, I love that sort of opening salvo stories where
• 9:20
  it's two people going on an adventure in time and space, and
• 9:23
  you're going to see how violent and brutal and terrifying that
• 9:28
  actually is. And so just for that, that peek
• 9:31
  into that side of Doctor Who. I love it.
• 9:35
  Yeah, I think you've you've, you're all spot on.
• 9:37
  I mean, I think Joe, I messaged you today and used the horrible
• 9:40
  business cliche forming and storming, but it it really is at
• 9:44
  this stage. I just know what you were
• 9:45
  talking about. You usually don't have a clue
• 9:50
  what I'm talking about. But in this particular case,
• 9:52
  yeah, it's just, it's watching it come together.
• 9:54
  And there's a lot of myths about and there's a lot of cliches
• 9:57
  about this year. And people latch onto particular
• 10:00
  scenes and particular speeches and, and make that tell the
• 10:04
  whole story. But it isn't the whole story.
• 10:05
  There's a lot more. Well, there's a couple of
• 10:07
  stories that I'm going to talk about particularly where I say
• 10:10
  people get very fixated on a particular take on a scene and
• 10:15
  say that's the template for all of Hartnell, for example, and
• 10:18
  it's not true. It's much more varied than that.
• 10:20
  It's much more flexible than that.
• 10:22
  It's much more creative than that.
• 10:24
  So yeah, it'd be fun to dig into some of those myths.
• 10:26
  I'll give you the perfect example of that.
• 10:29
  You can't rewrite history. Not one line.
• 10:31
  Season one, you can't blame me for all this child.
• 10:35
  Come back here at the end of the Romans season two and oh shit,
• 10:39
  I'm in a bit of a sticky situation.
• 10:41
  Well, there's this great horse that you could create, get your
• 10:43
  soldiers in there and put them in.
• 10:45
  I mean, they're just making it up, aren't they?
• 10:47
  But. Undoubtedly.
• 10:48
  Wonderful to see. Even breaks his own rules in the
• 10:50
  very first story. But we will come to that in
• 10:52
  time. Gentlemen, would you like to
• 10:56
  read our overview comments from our glorious listeners?
• 11:01
  So we've got Michael Storm, who says imagination,
• 11:05
  experimentation and variety. When fans talk about Doctor Who
• 11:09
  having a flexible format that lends the show to do anything,
• 11:12
  they really mean the Hartnell era, and this is the perfect
• 11:15
  showcase. Does it always work well?
• 11:17
  Of course not. But there's gusto aplenty and a
• 11:19
  real feeling of a new type of TV beginning to emerge.
• 11:25
  Jason Thompson says an absolute Corker of a run.
• 11:28
  Cardinal owns the show from the moment he appears.
• 11:31
  Jacqueline Hill and William Russell gave us two entirely
• 11:33
  believable characters in Barbara and Ian.
• 11:36
  Caroline. Ford is less impressive, but
• 11:39
  mainly because the writers ignore the original character
• 11:41
  outline and just make her a damsel in distressed child
• 11:45
  character. I feel like I'm watching points
• 11:47
  of view, do you know? And that's a spot on.
• 11:50
  Jason Thompson there. Well done.
• 11:55
  David Gillespie Pratt What a wonderful, glorious launch to
• 11:58
  our favorite show. 42 weeks of adventure crammed full of ideas
• 12:02
  and one of the top TARDIS teams. Sure, it's rough round the edges
• 12:06
  at times, but I bloody love it. Early, Who is often accused of
• 12:10
  being slow compared to modern series?
• 12:12
  It can be, but compared to other TV in 1963 this is pacey stuff.
• 12:18
  Paul Quinn says the brilliant first story still hints at the
• 12:22
  doctrine. Susan fleeing from something.
• 12:24
  And with that, you'll get the idea of Susan as an exiled alien
• 12:28
  Princess. The pity is the production team
• 12:31
  don't develop her as an alien and that Carol and Ford probably
• 12:35
  isn't a strong enough actress to carry it all.
• 12:38
  Understatement of the year, sorry.
• 12:42
  Daniel Knight, An amazing collection of stories,
• 12:44
  interconnected and eclectic, with a scale of storytelling and
• 12:48
  imagination that frequently surpasses the show's budget and
• 12:51
  resources. The ensemble cast are all
• 12:54
  superb, led by Hartnell, who's perhaps the only Doctor to go on
• 12:57
  a true character journey from suspicious and untrustworthy to
• 13:00
  gleeful hero and wise adventurer.
• 13:04
  Anthony Carroll says love watching the show and characters
• 13:08
  develop. Amazing what was achieved in a
• 13:11
  Krebed studio only clunker is the Sensorites.
• 13:14
  Overall 8 out of 10. Fantastic start.
• 13:19
  Also my although this is the iconic beginning of our amazing
• 13:23
  show, the stories are not great. However, Hartnell is magnificent
• 13:28
  as the Doctor. Perfect casting.
• 13:30
  Love Ian and Barbara but oh boy, Susan is very irritating the
• 13:36
  stories. Are not great is he mad it's.
• 13:39
  Going on Ford's. Getting a lot of stick in this
• 13:42
  in this opening sound maybe the. Start show me.
• 13:44
  The beginning. No.
• 13:49
  Big. Orange, Michael says.
• 13:51
  Oh, I'm sorry, I don't. I don't.
• 13:53
  Do I don't have orange on my list of accents I didn't do on
• 13:56
  my CV? My admiration has grown over the
• 13:59
  years, but most of the season is driven by 1 central conflict.
• 14:04
  The TARDIS crew wants Slash needs to leave.
• 14:08
  Some stories are more creative than others in establishing what
• 14:11
  separates them from the TARDIS. Electronic dances.
• 14:16
  Excellent. Love those episodes that mostly
• 14:19
  just feature the regulars as they had wonderful chemistry
• 14:22
  allowing them to carry those episodes by themselves, Michael
• 14:27
  Donahue says a. Wonderful set of stories, not a
• 14:30
  bad one amongst them. So much imagination.
• 14:33
  Hartnell is marvellous from the first scene, and his growth as
• 14:37
  he learns humanity from Ian and Barbara is great too.
• 14:40
  It's easy to see why RTD used the same template in 2005, each
• 14:46
  sort of deliberately heading towards RP because we're talking
• 14:49
  about 63. What I'm just?
• 14:54
  Being a tedious old hammer, really, Gareth, just to say,
• 14:59
  this is the one female comment we've got here, Joe Shaw, so
• 15:03
  there must be there's a woman's voice inside you somewhere.
• 15:07
  Let's. See what we can do?
• 15:08
  See what we can do. OK, so Joe Short says oh, if
• 15:12
  only this series had produced a memorable alien vogue that we
• 15:15
  could all remember. It would have been so much
• 15:18
  better. Ian and Barbara were definitely
• 15:21
  at it too. I'm.
• 15:23
  Not sure that. Kwai captures Joe's very strong
• 15:25
  Essex accent. But hey, you know, each to their
• 15:28
  own now. Joe sort of sounds a bit like
• 15:30
  me, You know, like she was brought dragged up in Crawley.
• 15:33
  Sorry Joe, I love you to pieces. Can I first say thank you very
• 15:37
  much for that guys. I don't think I've ever heard
• 15:39
  the enjoyed the comments being read out more than I did just
• 15:42
  then. Well, thank you very much so.
• 15:46
  Let's just go to our first story.
• 15:47
  Let's start with Toby. Toby, we're going to give you
• 15:49
  the whole run of eight stories. Pick your story of choice and
• 15:53
  love it or hate it. Oh.
• 15:56
  Well, I've decided to make things hard for myself because
• 16:00
  otherwise I'm just a terrible old lovey who just accentuates
• 16:03
  the positive. And that's what I do on my own
• 16:05
  podcast. So I've decide, I've decided
• 16:08
  beforehand there are four stories I'm going to vote
• 16:11
  through and four stories I'm going to vote away.
• 16:15
  Not because I think there are four good and four bad stories
• 16:17
  in the season. I just thought I'm going to do
• 16:18
  half and half and the top four go through for me and the bottom
• 16:22
  four don't. Just to keep it, just to try
• 16:24
  and, you know, give it a, give it a little bit of edge, give a
• 16:27
  bit of, give a bit of drama. The man who hates, but I I'm
• 16:32
  going to find it really hard because I was going through I
• 16:34
  was just walking the dog, but I was going through even the one
• 16:37
  that I think's the obvious one to to get rid of and I was
• 16:40
  going, Oh, but I really like this and oh, I feel quite sorry
• 16:42
  for it. I mean, I feel sorry for things.
• 16:45
  But anyway, so long as you know that I'm, I'm, I will be a
• 16:48
  reluctant killer. But I, when I, when I listen to
• 16:52
  this, yeah, as I say, I, I've, I've, I do sometimes feel if it
• 16:56
  all goes through, I think I'll stop being such pansies.
• 17:05
  But anyway, so but I I think I'm going to go for one I want to
• 17:12
  save and I think the one I really want to save the most.
• 17:24
  Do I go for the obvious one? Do I go for the obvious 1 go?
• 17:27
  For. It I'm going go where your art
• 17:29
  is, I'm going to go. I think the first episode of
• 17:32
  Doctor Who is the is one of the best pieces of television ever
• 17:36
  made. And I don't and and and I
• 17:40
  remember watching five faces of Doctor Who and, you know,
• 17:43
  thinking that first episode was wow.
• 17:45
  And then then thinking that cave people stuff was going they do a
• 17:48
  story with K people. It seemed such an obvious thing
• 17:51
  to do when I was younger. You go, oh, that seems really
• 17:53
  too obvious that the first bit of history you'd do is The Cave
• 17:56
  people. And it did seem to be a bit of
• 17:58
  an anti climax. And then when I collected
• 18:00
  episodes, I watched the first episode again and was amazed at
• 18:03
  how it stood up. I mean, we've, we've, we've gone
• 18:06
  through this over and over again, but how I don't think
• 18:09
  there's a Duff note or line in the first episode.
• 18:13
  And having done a deep dive on it, there could have been so
• 18:16
  many in in the Coburn script. Ian Chesterton is the biggest
• 18:21
  Dick in the universe who's all sort of I'm going to punch you,
• 18:25
  Doctor Who, because women and oh God, we hardly we come on,
• 18:29
  Barbara, right. You're a terrible woman driver.
• 18:32
  No wonder we can't find space. And he's just an ass.
• 18:36
  And there's there's all sorts of other things you could have had
• 18:38
  like the doctor's memory wiping cigarettes and and and never
• 18:43
  mind wonder is in the 4th dimension.
• 18:46
  We are exiles on the planet of Findu Clare and hiding from the
• 18:50
  palace in hordes. I mean, it was guff, guff, guff.
• 18:53
  And in comes David Whittaker and goes.
• 18:55
  I'm going to make this a bit more oblique.
• 18:57
  I've I've got a more poetic tone.
• 18:59
  My characters are a bit more what Ian.
• 19:03
  I just I mean, I think all four characters are great, but Ian
• 19:07
  Chesterton's transformation from the conception of him as being
• 19:10
  this sort of slightly 60s, he kind of terse, kind of slightly
• 19:14
  full of himself Arsenal to the sort of winning, cheery, brave,
• 19:19
  but also very light. The the way that William Russell
• 19:22
  goes from being, you know, sort of charming and pleasant and
• 19:26
  helpful and nice, but actually, when necessary, being you.
• 19:30
  Know. Straightforward and tough and
• 19:31
  pragmatic, William Hartnell is never better than in that first
• 19:35
  episode. I think he's absolutely
• 19:36
  phenomenal. But what often happens above
• 19:40
  Jacqueline here is just super I. And I think Caroline Ford, when
• 19:42
  she's doing alien Susan stuff, is beguiling and mysterious and
• 19:46
  strange and she has a wonderful, far away quality about her.
• 19:50
  I love everything they do in that first episode.
• 19:52
  We're so lucky that we have the pilot as well that you can
• 19:55
  compare it to. I think the pilot does have
• 19:57
  charms on its own and some bits like, you know, we'll be foot
• 20:01
  footprints in a time where they don't belong or something.
• 20:03
  It's a beautiful line. But on the whole, you can see
• 20:05
  why they made the changes. But that adds to the mystique.
• 20:08
  And I think when we watch this stuff, it's not just what we see
• 20:11
  that helps because we're fans, you know, there's so, so many
• 20:14
  other things that stimulate our responses to this.
• 20:16
  But just as a piece of television, that first episode
• 20:19
  of Doctor Who is magnificent. The the the brick of Brack.
• 20:24
  Funking of the, of the incidental music that sort of
• 20:27
  matches the junkyard and the, and the, and the sort of strange
• 20:31
  ramshackle nature of the outside of the TARDIS that then
• 20:34
  contrasts with the, the gleaming and seemingly huge interior.
• 20:38
  But the, the received wisdom is then then they go to cave land
• 20:41
  and it's all load of old nonsense.
• 20:44
  And and I, you know, and even even the people who made it
• 20:47
  said, well, we I don't think we should have, you know, if given
• 20:50
  the choice and given the time, we wouldn't have gone back to
• 20:54
  cave period. But I, I do think it is a
• 20:57
  compromise and it is a fairly simplistic story, but I don't
• 21:01
  think that matters. Quite often the launch story of
• 21:04
  a Doctor Who sees and it rose is a very simple story.
• 21:07
  The autumns are defeated by a, you know, by a, a vial of anti
• 21:11
  plastic. We don't know what that is.
• 21:13
  It doesn't matter. It's the vehicle to introduce us
• 21:16
  to the characters and to the series.
• 21:19
  And The Cave story is very, very simple, but it has so much.
• 21:23
  What I love about it is that the tight it's a historical where
• 21:27
  everything is, is actually more alien than some stories set on
• 21:31
  different planets. I think there's something about
• 21:34
  warriors to Saints roving camera, something about Norman
• 21:37
  Cay's Moody, creepy music, something about just the print
• 21:41
  that we have where the inky blacks are much more contrasted
• 21:44
  with the the the the stark whites.
• 21:46
  And I think that, you know, those cave scenes are really
• 21:49
  gloomy and drip with atmosphere and the actors do it's so it's
• 21:53
  easy to be given sort of the Shakespearean dialogue that you
• 21:56
  get in some historicals. You know, the the the the moxie
• 21:59
  where you can you can do all of that sort of rather fun,
• 22:02
  declamatory acting and characterization.
• 22:05
  But to play grunt in cave people is not much fun because you
• 22:09
  don't get to sort of exercise those dramatic Shakespearean
• 22:12
  muscles and also can look really only if you if you do it badly.
• 22:19
  And I think Jeremy Young, Derek Newark and Alethia Charlton are
• 22:23
  all fantastic. Alethia Charlton is an amazing
• 22:26
  actress. She comes across as somebody who
• 22:28
  sort of plays sort of shrewish mumsy types with a slightly sort
• 22:31
  of forward teeth and, and addiction that she has.
• 22:34
  And she plays that character as an instinctive sort of, yeah,
• 22:39
  sort of slightly feral creature who, who who has an instinct to,
• 22:44
  you know, to back away and to be mistrustful and, and and for
• 22:47
  sort of survival. And the way that she latches on
• 22:50
  to, you know, the, the male that she thinks will will be the be
• 22:54
  the one that, you know, that that is most likely to protect
• 22:57
  her. And it's it's a Jeremy Young
• 23:01
  sort of weird. So as you can see, the sort of
• 23:03
  flickers of incomprehension on his face as as as Cal is trying
• 23:07
  to, you know, work out what's going on and what he should do.
• 23:11
  And I love the bit where where, you know, they outwit him with
• 23:13
  the knife and all of that. And and Derek Newark is also
• 23:17
  equal to the task. I think it's it's, it's it could
• 23:20
  have been so bad that and I understand those to whose for
• 23:26
  whose to whose tastes that story does not appeal.
• 23:32
  But I think it is greater than the sum of its parts.
• 23:35
  It exceeds the limitations of that very simple story.
• 23:39
  Who's going to become the leader of the tribe by actually
• 23:42
  presenting even the good guys, even the good guys of the tribe,
• 23:45
  even the ones the doctor helps, the doctors companions help
• 23:48
  actually end up turning on them because they don't trust.
• 23:52
  I mean season one more than anywhere.
• 23:54
  It's not just the situations and the characters that they and the
• 23:58
  monsters that they encountered that are dangerous.
• 24:01
  The very act of travelling through time and space, the very
• 24:04
  landscapes in which they find themselves.
• 24:08
  Means that. They're constantly on the run.
• 24:10
  Every every story ends with a cliffhanger.
• 24:12
  The first story ends with them covered in mud, their clothes
• 24:15
  torn. Basically, they don't.
• 24:17
  It's not. You are.
• 24:18
  Oh, you gave us fire, Doctor. You'll be the stuff of legend.
• 24:22
  We will. We will.
• 24:23
  We will forever. Your names will be remembered by
• 24:27
  the Tribe of Gum, you know and all that.
• 24:29
  That was the Star Trek version. Yeah.
• 24:31
  Well, exactly. But this is more right.
• 24:33
  You're giving us fire. Now, we could stick you in the
• 24:35
  car, but you, we'll, we'll chase you and throw Spears at the at
• 24:38
  the TARDIS. And I love that.
• 24:40
  I love the fact that there's a sense of danger simply by being
• 24:44
  there, You know, everywhere that you land, the landscape, the
• 24:47
  environment, that everywhere is a potential danger.
• 24:51
  Even as I say in IF, the story itself and the stakes of the
• 24:55
  story are relatively simple and straightforward.
• 24:58
  I think it's gloriously weird and cold and alien and there's
• 25:04
  not really another story like it.
• 25:07
  So whilst the first episode is obviously magnificent, I think
• 25:10
  the rest, which are always overshadowed by and always
• 25:15
  history, says in retrospect, a bit of a mistake.
• 25:18
  I do get that, but I think Despite that they rise above
• 25:23
  their limitations. Nobody working on it has gone.
• 25:27
  Oh, we should have done a story about robots really now, or oh,
• 25:29
  we should have done a story about me.
• 25:31
  They've gone. Well, we're going to do this
• 25:32
  cave stuff and Derek Newham's gone.
• 25:34
  Oh, I'll put lamb fat in my hair then to make myself look called
• 25:36
  maggot. You know, everyone's, everyone's
• 25:38
  still going. Well, I'll, you know, I'll do
• 25:40
  it. I'll, I'll, I'll do it to the
• 25:41
  best of my ability and not and not be embarrassed by the fact
• 25:45
  that we're playing grunts. And and it's also could be a
• 25:49
  metaphor for, you know, nuclear power and all that stuff that is
• 25:53
  going, you know, that that that is in the air at the time, you
• 25:56
  know, the old mother saying fire will kill us all.
• 25:58
  So there's there's subtext. There's an attempt to have some
• 26:00
  sort of subtext flying about there as well.
• 26:04
  But as well as, you know, fear makes companions of us all.
• 26:07
  All those beautiful, you know, quotes that we see starting to
• 26:10
  be the template of the series beyond obviously, that
• 26:13
  wonderful, wonderful first episode.
• 26:15
  So that is why I am keeping which the story I will call.
• 26:20
  And if you will never hear me say 100,000 BC for in the
• 26:24
  sentence you will never hear me say 100,000 BC.
• 26:28
  Which is why I never get up to anything on Bartholomew's Eve.
• 26:33
  Nor do I ever, nor do I ever cut away to a Dalek or do anything
• 26:37
  by the spaceship. But I'm very happy languishing
• 26:41
  on the edge of destruction. You know, you mentioned three
• 26:43
  fabulous actors there. It's Eileen Way that always
• 26:46
  terrifies me. Oh yes, that weird slurred.
• 26:50
  Way that she. Says her dialogue.
• 26:52
  There's something so creepy about when I watched it young
• 26:54
  when I was younger she really freaked me out.
• 26:57
  Anyway, sorry, should we go until she says she says she says
• 27:00
  her dialogue the Eileen way. Oh.
• 27:06
  How do we? Salvage this.
• 27:07
  Let's move. To the comments very quickly.
• 27:10
  Sihard says, off to a wonderful start.
• 27:13
  If they hadn't got this right, we wouldn't all be here now.
• 27:16
  Don't. You be getting on this, taking
• 27:17
  the piss out of the comments like this pair.
• 27:19
  Come on. Down.
• 27:20
  They've inspired me, Dave. Rooney says timeless, a
• 27:23
  fascinating piece of TV. Harder is so raw and dangerous
• 27:27
  here. Jacoit says one all timer
• 27:30
  episode. The other three are fine, but
• 27:32
  just not of quite the same level.
• 27:34
  So much the show. 60 years is already here, just waiting to be
• 27:37
  expanded upon. And five years before Kubrick's
• 27:40
  2001 Cavemen are being used to juxtapose the developments of
• 27:44
  past and future technologies. It turns out Doctor Who can do
• 27:48
  politics sometimes as well. London, Colin says the shock and
• 27:52
  struggle the characters endure to the anachronisms of the
• 27:55
  Doctor and the TARDIS in episode one is the same for The Cave
• 27:59
  people meeting the TARDIS crew in the remaining episodes, and
• 28:01
  it's compelling and darkly played out.
• 28:04
  John. Arnold says first episode
• 28:06
  perfect. You don't need anything but a
• 28:08
  way into the mystery, and the next three are a logical place
• 28:11
  to start. Absorbing, if not thrilling, but
• 28:14
  gorgeously, innovatively directed by Waris thematically
• 28:17
  beautiful too. All four are about finding and
• 28:20
  building your tribe. Aaron Lit Randall's episode one
• 28:23
  is peerless. I'm noticing a theme here.
• 28:25
  I could never bore of it, but I also love the rest of the story.
• 28:29
  The cast and crew may have felt it was silly, but it oozes
• 28:31
  conviction. Rarely do we see the TARDIS team
• 28:34
  as beaten up again. Warris's direction puts his
• 28:37
  successors to shame. Daniel Knight says a great
• 28:40
  introductory episode, each character clearly defined and
• 28:43
  well acted. The reveal of the inside of the
• 28:45
  TARDIS and that cliffhanger are very memorable and must have
• 28:48
  bewildered the audience. The remaining three episodes are
• 28:51
  as visceral and unpleasant as the show gets.
• 28:54
  Detractors point to the Ugg style acting of the caveman, but
• 28:58
  they're as alien to the travellers as the Daleks, and
• 29:00
  equally unreasonable too, which UPS the jeopardy far more than
• 29:04
  people realize. David Gillespie Pratt.
• 29:06
  An excellent opening story. Ignore the naysayers who are
• 29:10
  down on episodes 2:00 to 4:00. There's a grubbiness in the
• 29:13
  final episode that we'll never quite see again.
• 29:16
  Daniel Ramsley says a pair of nosy school teachers stalk that
• 29:19
  overachieving student, end up getting kidnapped by a deranged
• 29:23
  old geezer who claims to be her grandfather, and then disappear
• 29:27
  for over 2 years. Of course it's great, all of it
• 29:31
  so. So dodgy Jason Johnson an
• 29:33
  opening TV show though. An.
• 29:36
  Opening episode that's near perfect as an introduction to
• 29:39
  the characters and the premise. The other three episodes are
• 29:41
  great as well. The Doctor, for all his bad
• 29:44
  temper, is immediately protective of his companions.
• 29:46
  See his apology in The Cave trying to help Barbara to keep
• 29:49
  her fear under control. And among all the posturing
• 29:52
  males in the tribe, it's the two women who show the most
• 29:55
  reasoning ability. Solid start.
• 29:58
  James H says every single moment of the first episode is amazing,
• 30:02
  taking time to establish characters.
• 30:04
  The control room reveal is astounding and and a
• 30:07
  terrifyingly unpredictable Dr. True perfection.
• 30:11
  Later, the doctor contemplates murder until the humans change
• 30:13
  him and it's gritty, grim, but not as grunty as it could have
• 30:17
  been. Keep it for sure.
• 30:19
  Nearly. There folks, Michael Storm, a
• 30:20
  great opening story, a perfect character study for Ian and
• 30:23
  Barbara who are intelligent, reasonable people, were suddenly
• 30:26
  thrown into a situation beyond their understanding.
• 30:29
  It's a pity after the promising writing and portrayal of Susan
• 30:32
  in episode one that she's reduced to that she's reduced to
• 30:37
  a screeching banshee before the closing credits even roll for
• 30:40
  episode 2. Big Orange Michael said The
• 30:43
  first episode is one of the best half hours of TV ever produced.
• 30:47
  The following episodes are wonderful in their parallels.
• 30:50
  The Cave people's disbelief and division over fire parallel
• 30:53
  Ian's and Barbara's disbelief in the TARDIS, and there's the
• 30:56
  division of the TARDIS crew. The 1st Doctor is truly a rogue
• 31:00
  and Hartnell's performance is superb.
• 31:02
  Or it's. My a wonderful first.
• 31:04
  You know Gareth, I defy you to critique the first episode after
• 31:08
  all this. A wonderful first episode and
• 31:10
  ends with a great first cliffhanger.
• 31:12
  However, goes downhill dramatically from there.
• 31:15
  The caveman episodes are not very interesting.
• 31:17
  Matley Newby says the caveman story is inauspicious but well
• 31:21
  directed and acted for what it is not as iconic as the opening
• 31:25
  episode, but then it never could be.
• 31:27
  And finally, LSJ. If only we'd gone from An
• 31:30
  Unearthly Child to the Dead planet.
• 31:32
  Those three episodes in between are not great.
• 31:36
  So, Gareth, has Toby won you over with his glowing
• 31:40
  recommendation? I mean how?
• 31:42
  Could it not? It's, it's a keeper.
• 31:45
  Absolutely, it's a keeper. I mean, for me there is, there
• 31:49
  is so much in in these first four episodes.
• 31:52
  I, I never see them. I never see the first episode as
• 31:54
  a stand alone. It's always been one story
• 31:58
  because it's part of that development of all the regulars
• 32:00
  going through this experience together.
• 32:04
  The first episode's got a wonderful sense of mystery about
• 32:07
  it from start to finish, but literally we are drawn in from
• 32:11
  that fog to the slightly disinterested policemen.
• 32:14
  Could have been a different story for you to try.
• 32:16
  Going through the gates to the home of the TARDIS to the You're
• 32:19
  then being drawn in with Ian and Barbara discussing Susan.
• 32:24
  You are then into the junkyard meeting the Doctor.
• 32:28
  Even even the way he says, what's the word he says
• 32:30
  insulting, the way he utters the word insulting instantly draws
• 32:35
  you into because it's not a declaration going, oh, you're
• 32:37
  insulting. No, no, insulting.
• 32:38
  You come here, you want, you want to hear what I want to say.
• 32:42
  And then they throw them into the TARDIS and everything flips
• 32:44
  around and we're all in there. And it's, it's, it's, it's
• 32:47
  wonderfully directed that first episode, that sense of mystery.
• 32:51
  And of course, it's a different pace once we get to the other
• 32:54
  three episodes, but it's no less compelling because again, it's
• 32:57
  about that different environment, different people
• 32:59
  this time around that we're going to the the elements.
• 33:03
  For me though, that I I really like is certainly Hartnell's
• 33:07
  performance. My favorite scene of Hartnell in
• 33:11
  this episode is the one where Zars captured him and has taken
• 33:16
  him back to everyone and he's almost loading it around
• 33:19
  everyone going, oh, I'll produce all the fire you want.
• 33:20
  You want fire, I will give you fire.
• 33:23
  And then you realise he's not got his matches on him and
• 33:25
  Hartnell just turns on a dime all of a sudden.
• 33:28
  It's probably one of the few times where Han actually looks
• 33:30
  scared. The doctor looks scared to be
• 33:34
  physically shaking when he realises he's not got the
• 33:36
  matches on him. Well, that fellow's.
• 33:38
  Literally shaking him. Is he?
• 33:40
  Yeah. He see his hands.
• 33:41
  I can't make fire. I can't make fire.
• 33:43
  I haven't. It's wonderful stuff.
• 33:47
  And obviously the can't go without saying.
• 33:49
  The scene with the Doctor with the stone.
• 33:52
  Where? You know, in a different world,
• 33:55
  perhaps he did take Cal out. Who knows, You know?
• 33:59
  And is it Ian's interjection that she turns him down a
• 34:02
  different path again, bringing back that mystery?
• 34:06
  I don't. Think we're done with that
• 34:07
  doctor yet? You know, he's the same fellow.
• 34:09
  Walked them all into radiation poisoning and we haven't got to
• 34:13
  edge of destruction yet. But I don't know what he was
• 34:15
  going to do when he knocked them all out.
• 34:16
  But I think, yeah, that. It's still the mystery
• 34:20
  instrument sticks around for. A bit.
• 34:22
  Yeah. And, and we, we are compelled by
• 34:24
  it, you know, which way is he going to go this week?
• 34:26
  He's taken two people effectively prison and run off
• 34:29
  with them and then claims he's trying to get him back each week
• 34:32
  but doesn't actually succeed. But you didn't have to be there
• 34:35
  anyway. So really the fight scene
• 34:39
  between Carl and Zara is wonderful.
• 34:43
  It is absolutely wonderful. We've, we've had a very steady
• 34:47
  pace for episodes 2:00 and 3:00. And then we hit it with the
• 34:50
  fight scene and even the way the fight scene ends, the
• 34:53
  dramaticness of the regulars all looking completely shocked, you
• 34:58
  don't see any impact, you just see a body get dragged away at
• 35:01
  the very end. It's absolutely glorious.
• 35:03
  And the last thing I've got to mention, which isn't something
• 35:06
  that I've thought of but it's something I've read.
• 35:08
  But I've gone through all my completely use useless
• 35:11
  encyclopedia and couldn't find reference to it so I'm damned if
• 35:13
  I know where it is, is that it's anti smoking message because the
• 35:18
  minute the doctor lights up it gets hit on the head and then
• 35:20
  never does it again. Though if it's not worthy for
• 35:22
  putting through for that, then what is?
• 35:24
  Perfect, Rishi would be very happy with that.
• 35:27
  Aye, Joe, do you want to go first?
• 35:31
  Why not? You mentioned the the fight
• 35:34
  between the two Cavemen at the end of the episode.
• 35:36
  You are right, that is a fantastic scene, but for a very
• 35:39
  different reason. For me, it is one of the sexiest
• 35:42
  scenes ever in Doctor Who. Seeing these two hairy bears.
• 35:46
  I mean, just see that that positions their room when
• 35:49
  they're rolling around that cave.
• 35:51
  I recently did a podcast and I had to choose the what was it?
• 35:55
  The unexpectedly sexy men of Doctor Who and Cow and Tsar were
• 35:59
  my number ones. So that's my number one reason
• 36:02
  for putting this through. Yes, I'm twisted.
• 36:05
  The first episode, of course, a superb economic mystery packed
• 36:08
  episode one featuring awesome performances, suspenseful
• 36:11
  direction and one of the best twists ever in television
• 36:15
  history. When they go through those tardy
• 36:17
  stores. Did anybody suspect that was
• 36:19
  coming? Can you imagine?
• 36:21
  Probably. Not at that time, no, I don't.
• 36:23
  Think so. And I'm basically repeating what
• 36:26
  you said. I think this is the most brutal,
• 36:28
  dirty, unrelenting depiction of history we're ever going to see
• 36:32
  in Doctor Who. By the end of the story, the
• 36:34
  regulars are completely dislocated, exhausted and
• 36:38
  brutalized. It's it's really quite shocking
• 36:41
  to you know, I recently watched Time and the Ronnie and then I
• 36:45
  went back and watched An Unearthly Child and they're
• 36:47
  totally, they're doing very different things.
• 36:50
  And whilst I don't think that is the approach .2 should take long
• 36:53
  term, because I don't think it can sustain, it's so gripping to
• 36:58
  watch it as a as a foot out of the gate to dislocate them to
• 37:02
  this extent. That's why I don't think it was
• 37:04
  a mistake doing this as Cavemen episodes, because it's just
• 37:07
  something that's so alien to to what they recognize.
• 37:11
  It really just makes the point that this ship can go anywhere.
• 37:14
  And then what do we do next week?
• 37:15
  We go to an alien black, we do it all over again.
• 37:17
  We'll get there later, yes. I'm not brave enough to fight
• 37:21
  against this one. It's going through.
• 37:23
  Brilliant. Of course, I'm going to put it
• 37:25
  through as well. How could I not?
• 37:26
  So I'm not going to talk about the first step.
• 37:28
  What new can you say about the first episode?
• 37:31
  It's magical, it's captivating, it's probably the best 25
• 37:37
  minutes of Doctor Who has a single episode that there's ever
• 37:39
  been. I've watched it so many times.
• 37:43
  It's just spectacular. It gets me every single time.
• 37:46
  So love that. So I'm going to park the first
• 37:48
  one because it's just, it's peerless.
• 37:51
  I'm going to focus more on episodes two to four, which kind
• 37:54
  of they're a big power struggle basically, aren't they?
• 37:56
  Between Car Cal and Tsar? It's kind of like Succession,
• 38:01
  but without the board meetings or the Dick pics is this big
• 38:05
  power struggle between two opposing sides and I love it.
• 38:09
  My three reasons, First one that you guys have already picked
• 38:12
  upon is that palpable sense of danger.
• 38:15
  It is so intense. Gareth, you started talking
• 38:17
  about it, the fight scene. Is there a more realistic fight
• 38:21
  scene? Certainly not in classic Doctor
• 38:23
  Who, I would think. But the bit that really gets me
• 38:26
  is is at the end, once Tsar's killed cow, he goes up and just
• 38:30
  grabs that dead body and drags it through The Cave and throws
• 38:34
  him up against the rock. It's absolutely brutal.
• 38:37
  It's like it's a a dead animal. It's got absolutely no care or
• 38:40
  consideration. It's really shocking, you know?
• 38:43
  What you know, what bit gets me in the whole story is the bit
• 38:47
  where Barbara stumbles on the dead animal and just screams.
• 38:52
  It's like guttural how? And it's not the sort of screams
• 38:55
  we're a bit embarrassed watching on Doctor Who.
• 38:57
  She's just broken, isn't she? It's and it's.
• 39:00
  It's an. Odd shock because that because
• 39:01
  Worris just keeps the camera on that kind of, it's a wild boar,
• 39:04
  isn't it? It just keeps it focused on that
• 39:06
  head and the camera's really low.
• 39:08
  It's yeah, it's it's really brutal, I think.
• 39:10
  You feel at this point, are they going to get out of this?
• 39:13
  Absolutely. It's just, I don't think every
• 39:16
  time we've rebooted Doctor Who, whether it's Spearhead or Rose
• 39:19
  or Church on Ruby Rd. we've never kind of gone for this real
• 39:24
  grittiness that they did at this time.
• 39:25
  And I don't think you could. You couldn't sustain, Joe, you
• 39:28
  said it. How can you sustain that
• 39:29
  intensity for 60 years? It wouldn't work.
• 39:31
  I'm just. Trying to imagine a musical
• 39:33
  number in this though. You know where it would fit in
• 39:36
  with goblins, I don't think it would quite fit.
• 39:40
  My second reason is, is the Doctor in this, and there is so
• 39:43
  much talked about Harmel in this first, so his arrogance, his
• 39:46
  alienness, his coldness, he's so cold towards Ian and Barbara.
• 39:50
  There are a number of scenes which I kind of never get
• 39:53
  discussed that that kind of sit on me and really kind of tweak
• 39:56
  my interest. The first one, Gareth, you were
• 39:58
  talking about it before. Once the Doctor first wakes up,
• 40:00
  when he's been captured by the caveman, the his first reaction
• 40:03
  is to jump up and say I can make fire for you.
• 40:07
  Whatever happened to you can't change history.
• 40:09
  Not one line. He's there, he's in danger.
• 40:11
  He's going to give them fire. He's going to do what every time
• 40:13
  you haven't? Written the roll book No no A.
• 40:16
  Couple of weeks later, he won't be rewriting history, but he's
• 40:19
  happy to do it in that part. And then the companion stormed
• 40:23
  The Cave and Ian gets captured and threatened and the doctor
• 40:27
  straight away says he won't give them fire if they kill Ian.
• 40:31
  Now it's really interesting because up to that point he's so
• 40:33
  he's been so competitive with Ian.
• 40:36
  You wouldn't expect him to stand up for for one of his so-called
• 40:39
  companions. Not that they are at that stage,
• 40:41
  but straight away does. And Toby, you were talking about
• 40:44
  it right at the beginning about seeing those kind of threads of
• 40:47
  the doctor coming through in Arnold's early performances, and
• 40:50
  that's certainly one of them. And again, then at the end of
• 40:53
  the cliffhanger, he's he's apologising abjectly.
• 40:56
  So sorry I got you into this. And it's a really heartfelt
• 40:59
  apology. So I think we get lots and lots
• 41:02
  of sides to handle that we don't get elsewhere.
• 41:05
  But we're seeing what we would now turn today as the true
• 41:09
  doctor kind of coming through. And then there is that scene,
• 41:12
  absolutely, where he's potentially going to murder
• 41:15
  Czar. And what I think is really
• 41:17
  interesting about that scene is that the scene that's
• 41:20
  immediately preceded it is with Cal killing the old woman in
• 41:24
  exactly the same way, with a stone that looks identical.
• 41:28
  So maybe they're saying the doctor isn't as different to
• 41:31
  these savages as he likes to think he is.
• 41:34
  And then the last piece about the Cavemen, we always call
• 41:36
  them, why do we call them Cavemen?
• 41:38
  The Cave people, We have women, we have children, which is
• 41:41
  really unusual to see a range of people and genders and ages.
• 41:46
  That's quite unusual. And the men have the brown, but
• 41:49
  it's the women that have the brains.
• 41:51
  We were talking earlier about her.
• 41:52
  She's a wonderful kind of Lady Macbeth character, isn't she?
• 41:55
  Constantly whispering in Zar's ear to get him to do what she
• 41:59
  wants. And they look fantastic.
• 42:01
  Teeth are blackened. They've kind of accentuated
• 42:03
  pointy teeth. And they just feel real and
• 42:05
  dirty and grimy. And again, we never see that
• 42:08
  again. So, yeah, I'm putting it
• 42:09
  through. But I do want to mention because
• 42:11
  this is strictly come hamster, and we do have in part one, that
• 42:14
  wonderful Kenneth Williams schoolboy going.
• 42:17
  Oh, as. He.
• 42:18
  As he looks over their shoulder, I have, how could I not mention
• 42:22
  the two wonderful bits of innuendo that we get in episode
• 42:25
  4. It's the first one is when
• 42:27
  they're making fire in The Cave of Skulls and Ian implores his
• 42:31
  companions, Susan. Barbara blew gently, not quite
• 42:35
  sure what was going on in those caves.
• 42:37
  And then obviously at the very end, when they rush back to the
• 42:40
  TARDIS, Ian screaming, Doctor, get us off, get us off again.
• 42:45
  Not quite sure what was going on there for family entertainment,
• 42:47
  but hey, I'm. Questioned now captured into the
• 42:50
  story you were that you were making these readings that.
• 42:53
  During this very. Dramatic moments of an unearthy
• 42:56
  child, Yeah. No, I spot a bit of innuendo.
• 42:58
  I've got to point it out, yeah. Play.
• 43:00
  They slipped. It in so I had to bring it to
• 43:02
  the table. Of no surprise to me at all that
• 43:05
  that was a four way through to round two.
• 43:07
  Do you know? Absolutely.
• 43:09
  Gareth, pick your story of choice.
• 43:12
  Right, let me have a look here. What have we got right?
• 43:15
  I'm going to go for this one, I think because it surprised me on
• 43:19
  this watch. So this is this is a story that
• 43:23
  I've only seen three times before.
• 43:27
  I think I bought it on video when it came out.
• 43:29
  It was a very back end of the range with linking narration for
• 43:33
  some of the episodes. Got it on DVD and I think I've
• 43:37
  watched it once and then watched it once again with a commentary
• 43:41
  and then watched it again for this on iPlayer.
• 43:44
  Not the best quality edition. It's like listening listening to
• 43:46
  it through water. But it's there and it's the
• 43:49
  reign of terror and I am going to be putting it forward to be
• 43:54
  kept, which is a surprise to me. But apart from anything else.
• 44:00
  So I think we will you will alluded to this at the at the
• 44:03
  very beginning, Rod. One of the first things for me
• 44:06
  is those glorious shots of the Doctor walking across the fields
• 44:10
  to Paris. Not the Doctor, not the, not
• 44:14
  the, not quite, not quite. But the Doctor for the, for
• 44:17
  story purposes and for Doctor. Yeah.
• 44:20
  It's, there's just something, it's nice.
• 44:22
  It feels bigger because it's kind of got out the studio for
• 44:24
  the first time ever. And you know, those scenes are
• 44:28
  so good, they use them later in 30 years in the TARDIS, a lot of
• 44:31
  the 1st Doctor and I can't walk through an orchard without
• 44:33
  hearing a harpsichord in the background.
• 44:36
  As I'm, as I'm walking along and opening up, I've got a walking
• 44:38
  stick and someone's seeing me from behind.
• 44:40
  I'll start. Whistling it Gareth, should I
• 44:41
  when I'm going for a park? Yeah, the relationship between
• 44:49
  Barbara and Leon. It's very.
• 44:52
  Clear. There's something there between
• 44:53
  the two of them. Very, very clear.
• 44:57
  Even to the point of after he's done what he does with Ian in
• 45:01
  terms of interrogating him, the minute that Ian reports back
• 45:04
  that Leon's dead, Barbara almost turns on again.
• 45:08
  Which is very, very strange because these these have been
• 45:11
  two close bedfellows up to this point in terms of their
• 45:14
  adventures together. And she highlights that Leon's
• 45:18
  actually the right on the right side of things.
• 45:22
  It takes a very interesting twist in terms of looking at the
• 45:24
  people. There's a lot of characters in
• 45:26
  this throughout, actually. Or you're not sure which side
• 45:28
  they're on. And even by the end of it, you
• 45:30
  might not be sure which side they're on.
• 45:32
  I mean, they go to the doctors, you see, Nip in the room, nip
• 45:36
  out, that's it. And suddenly they're back in
• 45:38
  jail again. The story itself wonderfully
• 45:42
  splits them all apart and brings them all back together to the
• 45:45
  point where you're wondering how on earth can they both all get
• 45:48
  back together at this point? Because at the same time, you've
• 45:51
  got what I call the ticking time bomb clock, you know,
• 45:54
  revolutions around the corner. You know something's going to go
• 45:57
  down at some point. And that keeps the pace of the
• 46:00
  whole episode going. Now, I'm not going to say sit
• 46:04
  here and say I didn't struggle with episodes four and five
• 46:07
  missing or with the animation I've got.
• 46:10
  I've got severe crink in my neck as a result of watching that
• 46:13
  animation and and everyone moving all the time.
• 46:16
  It's the. Reign of Terror, as directed by
• 46:18
  Quentin Tarantino the the. Acura edition, as I like to
• 46:22
  think about it, it's, it's, it's funny, you know, the animations
• 46:27
  are what they are, that some of them are exceptionally good,
• 46:29
  some of them are good substitutes.
• 46:32
  And it there is just a lot to like about this story.
• 46:37
  The doctrine, the jailer scenes are a must to go in here for
• 46:40
  keeping it. Now.
• 46:41
  I'm not sure which part of provincial France the jailer is
• 46:44
  from, you know? With his with his accent like.
• 46:46
  That, Sir. Yeah, No, no, Sir.
• 46:47
  Oh yeah, that's right, That's right.
• 46:49
  But that wonderful one upmanship between him and the Doctor
• 46:52
  throughout the piece, at one point it's Hartnell being all
• 46:55
  imperious, loading it over and saying do this, do that.
• 46:58
  And then later on you sort of see that shift slightly when
• 47:01
  Hartnell gets found out and suddenly the jailers in charge.
• 47:05
  There. Is a lot to love that.
• 47:07
  And then there's the final episode, which almost feels like
• 47:10
  it's a little bit tacked on, where you've got Ian and Barbara
• 47:14
  in the inn and this stranger appears.
• 47:17
  You're not sure who it is. It's Napoleon.
• 47:20
  There's not much of a big deal made about it throughout, you
• 47:22
  know, in today's episodes that would have been front of Radio
• 47:26
  Times, Napoleon in Doctor Who. But no, it's, it's Napoleon.
• 47:30
  Barbara, Barbara. It's Napoleon, you know?
• 47:33
  And then they're straight at the window.
• 47:34
  Look at it. There's a lot to love about this
• 47:36
  story. There really is.
• 47:38
  It it, it is a great tale with a great historical setting that
• 47:42
  keeps itself going throughout and therefore I would like to
• 47:46
  keep it. Fantastic.
• 47:48
  Let's go to the comments, Paul Quinn says.
• 47:52
  Along comes Dennis Spooner with a new way to approach the
• 47:54
  historicals, demonstrating the possibility of humor in Doctor
• 47:58
  Who, which comes to the fore once Spooner becomes script
• 48:00
  editor. Variety and competing visions
• 48:03
  can spell disaster, but not here.
• 48:06
  David Gillespie Pratt Well, we were due a week one.
• 48:09
  There's nothing strictly wrong with this, it's just a bit
• 48:12
  directionless. It feels at times as if it can't
• 48:14
  quite work out what it wants to be.
• 48:16
  However, Hartnell is on fine form in his magnificent hat.
• 48:20
  Chuck Coya says this was famously Hartnell favorite
• 48:22
  historical period, so it's fair to assume he would have pushed
• 48:25
  more for this sort of story. Luckily he's having a blast, but
• 48:29
  presumably he's the only one. My least favorite of the season.
• 48:33
  It's not terribly interesting, too long and the animation is
• 48:36
  jarring. It has some interesting moments
• 48:38
  where it remembers it's supposed to be a season finale by evoking
• 48:41
  their previous adventures, but ultimately it's not for me.
• 48:45
  Big orange Michael location shooting at last.
• 48:49
  There are some fun bits in here, but it feels like the original
• 48:51
  production team is running out of steam as the season
• 48:54
  concludes. Or maybe they, like us, are
• 48:57
  looking forward to more Daleks. John Benzalia says the
• 49:00
  historicals take a different tack, with a streak of black
• 49:03
  comedy running throughout. What's with the animation
• 49:06
  though? My eyes hurt after all that
• 49:08
  quick fire cutting. Just don't watch those episodes,
• 49:11
  Dave. Ready.
• 49:12
  Too much talk and not enough action in this grisly historical
• 49:15
  period. Beto Beto was to come from
• 49:18
  Spooner and Susan. Scared of a rat.
• 49:20
  Just check her out now, Doctor. James H Said Never been able to
• 49:24
  get through this story without wanting to fall asleep.
• 49:27
  It's terminally dull and the secondary characters utterly
• 49:30
  unmemorable. Bennett.
• 49:33
  Vicious Daniel Knight, Dennis Spooner Given the historicals a
• 49:36
  bit of humor, but it lacks the memorable characters of Marco
• 49:39
  Polo or the Aztecs. By now Susan's been discarded by
• 49:42
  the writers in terms of contributing anything worthwhile
• 49:46
  and comes across as irritating. Darren.
• 49:48
  Lit Randall said Spooner script has a lot of great qualities.
• 49:51
  Only Susan suffers out of the regulars and some lovely humor.
• 49:55
  It's only really the direction on some design work that make it
• 49:58
  weaker than the previous historicals.
• 50:00
  A grower. In not agreeing with that
• 50:04
  comment, mindstorm. Utter snoozefest.
• 50:08
  We spend far too much time at that sodding prison with the
• 50:11
  comedy gola as well as the unlikable French tofts we have.
• 50:16
  We have a work party of youngest men being overseen by an
• 50:19
  overweight comedy miser, but it takes heart to overpower him by
• 50:22
  hitting him over the head with one of the tools they have in
• 50:25
  their hands. Come to that, have we just
• 50:27
  witnessed the doctor murder someone?
• 50:30
  Daniel Rawnsley said, morbid and violent, harmless, aghast.
• 50:33
  And it's fun to see the French Revolution retold exclusively by
• 50:36
  British actors. But turning Susan into a
• 50:39
  shivering, whiny little Bunny rabbit almost sinks the whole
• 50:42
  thing. As we all know, backache and
• 50:44
  dizziness are far bigger concerns than losing your head
• 50:47
  to the guillotine, so keep it. But ring the cloister bell of
• 50:50
  caution. Jason Thompson surely the point.
• 50:54
  Caroline Ford had to go. Oh no, sorry, I'm reading that
• 50:56
  wrong. Jason Thompson surely the point
• 50:58
  Caroline Ford decided it was time to go.
• 51:01
  The script has nothing for Susan to do, even locking her away for
• 51:04
  two whole episodes at the end while all the other characters
• 51:07
  do more interesting things. It's five episodes of the leads
• 51:10
  getting pushed from pillar to post, the one episode covering a
• 51:12
  historical event that was not even hinted at before, and then
• 51:16
  they all go home. Unsatisfying, Andy.
• 51:19
  Parkinson's said I love history, so you'd think I'd love this,
• 51:22
  and although I find it's OK, it's a little boring in parts.
• 51:25
  The audio version helps, but not enough to make it a favorite.
• 51:29
  Oh. Here he is Gary Russell, pretty
• 51:32
  but definitely dull. Hartnell's comedy finally gets a
• 51:35
  chance to shine, which is great. And that's.
• 51:38
  J says too long and not that memorable.
• 51:41
  Paul. Smye OK, however, probably 2
• 51:43
  episodes too long. Not a story I revisit very often
• 51:47
  and. Finally, Dublin Fox.
• 51:48
  I'd be surprised if anyone argued this isn't the worst.
• 51:51
  It's possibly the least appreciated two-story and it's
• 51:54
  telling. It was the final story to get an
• 51:56
  official BBC audio release. Toby.
• 51:59
  Please please offer a defence for this if you go May Yes
• 52:05
  please. Please.
• 52:07
  Well, I don't think we can criticize a story for the
• 52:09
  quality of its animation because that's not its fault.
• 52:13
  And I have to say episodes four and five of the Reign of Terror
• 52:16
  have the distinction in Haydock Towers have been prompt.
• 52:19
  I think the last episodes I digested, do you know they were
• 52:23
  the they were the last episodes for me to to experience.
• 52:30
  And I did them as recons first and then then the animations
• 52:32
  came out. But they were they were the last
• 52:34
  of classic who and and therefore the least familiar to me.
• 52:39
  They do have a couple of exciting things in them.
• 52:41
  And that the physician is played by the mighty Ronald Pickup in
• 52:44
  his first television appearance. What a wonderful actor he was.
• 52:48
  And Edward Brayshaw is I just think is very sexy and always
• 52:54
  has A and has a glowering sort of slightly arch quality about
• 52:58
  him that I like as a as an actress, especially as he
• 53:00
  strides around being sexy at Barbara.
• 53:02
  Good for him. And you know, I like to think
• 53:05
  the war chief is there in, in, in, in revolutionary France, you
• 53:11
  know, just just being, throwing the cast amongst the pigeons by
• 53:14
  being sexier. But Toby, he's even sexier the
• 53:17
  second time round because he's a proper camp villain then, isn't
• 53:20
  he? What?
• 53:20
  In the war games, yes, he's God, he's delicious.
• 53:23
  I think I once I wrote something where I described him as
• 53:25
  striding around like a big gay lion got this.
• 53:30
  He's got this mane and a medallion and he and he has a
• 53:32
  sort of feline quality about him.
• 53:34
  You know, he's he's got a great sort of Cheshire cat element to
• 53:37
  he's got beautiful eyes every Brayshaw.
• 53:40
  I don't know quite how he ended up playing Mr. Mika in that's
• 53:44
  what ended up, but I, as I said, he was he to me was an actor of
• 53:47
  great, of, of, of, of. He's got a sort of great
• 53:51
  glorious glycerin sort of camp presence that he has and he's
• 53:56
  rather good about it. He's rather he's rather
• 53:58
  distinguished in his in his sort of Ilan.
• 54:03
  But and and there's much that's important.
• 54:06
  I mean, IA lot of people say that Dennis Spooner comes in and
• 54:11
  discovers how important comedy is in Doctor and that is useful
• 54:14
  that Doctor without its comedy is, is not the show that we know
• 54:18
  and love. But I there there there is
• 54:20
  comedy earlier than this and more my sort of comedy, which we
• 54:25
  will talk about when we come to other stories.
• 54:28
  But I do think it's not to be underestimated that Dennis food
• 54:31
  comes in and becomes a very important voice.
• 54:33
  I think the two first script editors of Doctor Who were both
• 54:37
  really important in shaping the show as we know and understand
• 54:41
  it. And it wouldn't be the same show
• 54:43
  if one or the other of them hadn't had a chance to sort of,
• 54:47
  you know, do what they did with the format.
• 54:50
  And there are some lovely bits. I think some of the cameos are
• 54:55
  lovely, I think. I think John Barrard as the as
• 54:58
  the shopkeeper that that shops the doctor is is rather fun.
• 55:02
  And Dallas Cavill as the road works overseer who gets hit with
• 55:06
  a a shovel by the doctor. And that is I don't think the
• 55:10
  doctor kills him because the rules of this story are that
• 55:13
  these people are all quite larger than life.
• 55:15
  So you could hit them with shovels and they'll be fine.
• 55:17
  I think. I think Jack Cunningham is is
• 55:20
  rather fun as the jailer. Jack Cunningham, who has the
• 55:23
  distinction of being the third ever actor to appear in Doctor
• 55:26
  Who to die. There we go.
• 55:28
  There's a cheerful back for you. And I think you know, it's fine
• 55:31
  him having a northern accent because what you do is it's a
• 55:34
  translation convention. If we're all talking RP to stand
• 55:37
  in for French, somebody from a, you know, a regional part of
• 55:41
  France will have a regional accent and we translate through
• 55:44
  that by giving them a, a regional English accent.
• 55:47
  I think that works perfect. Not sure what's going on with
• 55:49
  that little boy though, you know?
• 55:50
  No, Monsieur. Yeah, yeah, I know.
• 55:53
  That's slightly odd, isn't it? I've just discovered that the
• 55:57
  BBC were paying the wrong person his royalties for the DVDs.
• 56:01
  But anyway, let's not get into that.
• 56:04
  I'll bet he took the checks though.
• 56:06
  Yeah. Yeah, he did so because we
• 56:10
  thought, because we've never found him, then we thought we
• 56:12
  had found him. But the guy that we found isn't,
• 56:14
  isn't him. But yes, his his brother, his
• 56:16
  brother was has been cashing the cheques.
• 56:19
  So there we go. But that's a that's another
• 56:22
  story. I I think there was some yeah,
• 56:26
  there were some interesting things going on.
• 56:29
  But I think, and I think it is as yes, quite an important
• 56:34
  development. I think Gareth made a, a very
• 56:36
  good defence of it. And and not almost just because
• 56:41
  it was a toss up between this and another story as to which
• 56:45
  which would be my my 4th 1 to save.
• 56:50
  But I think, and especially listening to the comments, I, I
• 56:54
  think I was trying to save this more in principle than in
• 56:58
  practice. It does have that excellent sort
• 57:02
  of balance of comedy and and drama and what it tries to do
• 57:08
  something differently with the historical.
• 57:10
  But I think it means it's quite uneven in tone.
• 57:12
  Stanley Myers, who is a marvellous composer, needed the
• 57:16
  music that's well known for The Deer Hunter.
• 57:18
  I mean, one of the more most illustrious names to have hit
• 57:21
  the credits of Doctor Who does this sort of COD Marcelles kind
• 57:24
  of thing going on that is almost bordering on spoof.
• 57:27
  It's going well we're in France, so let's do all those sort of
• 57:31
  French. Napoleon turns up to the pub
• 57:33
  dressed as Napoleon. It's AI have coming to see.
• 57:37
  It's all it's almost like you almost expect Barbara to offer
• 57:41
  him a drink and him say not tonight Josephine.
• 57:44
  It's just just in case we forget he's Napoleon.
• 57:48
  There are things like, I mean, I think it's curious, isn't it?
• 57:51
  Because you expect Doctor Who, because Doctor Who is a cheap
• 57:54
  show, you expect it to sort of confine itself to a few
• 57:57
  locations. But of course, because every set
• 57:58
  gets taken down and put up again the following week, it's not
• 58:02
  actually that impractical as with so with Keys of Marinus and
• 58:09
  Marco and others to go, Oh no, we'll be quite episodic within a
• 58:12
  story. And I think that still surprises
• 58:14
  me, even though I'm quite familiar with because when top
• 58:16
  two goes on later on, you know, six 70s and 80s stories, it's
• 58:21
  it's much more practical to have the same same few sets in in the
• 58:26
  whole of the four episodes or six episodes.
• 58:28
  Whereas 60s Doctor Who, it's got a much more of a sort of scope
• 58:32
  and a travelogue. But that does mean you never
• 58:35
  quite will have this problem with some of the other stories.
• 58:37
  You never quite none of the characters really, you know,
• 58:40
  Dodge and Son and roof Ray turn up in episode one and you think,
• 58:43
  oh, these guys are going to be quite important.
• 58:44
  There's the there's a scared one of the, oh, they're both dead.
• 58:47
  Oh, OK, one of them gets killed. I mean, beaten quite brutally
• 58:50
  brutal, isn't it? And then you meet, you know,
• 58:54
  Jean and Danielle and and and and, but, but, but none of them
• 58:58
  sort of have, are around for long, apart from Lemaitre, who,
• 59:05
  I mean, is, is just is just, he's very plummy, isn't he?
• 59:08
  James J Cross. And so none of the characters
• 59:11
  are hugely memorable. Jack Cunningham's quite fun as
• 59:13
  the jailer, but we've had funnier sort of characters and,
• 59:18
  and there's a, there is an uncertainty in tone, there's a,
• 59:22
  there's a slight, you know, there, there are some bits to
• 59:26
  which time hasn't been particularly kind.
• 59:27
  I particularly love the beginning of Episode 6 when
• 59:30
  Donald Morley varied dramatically goes your friend
• 59:34
  has betrayed us. And then it cuts to the wide
• 59:36
  shot and the title comes up and they all just stand there for
• 59:40
  ages and his and his nerve breaks and he looks at the
• 59:43
  camera and seems to go, can I please start acting again now?
• 59:47
  Because you've just basically pressed pause and you've got us
• 59:49
  all in shock. Couldn't you have just at least
• 59:51
  put a close up on a on a clerk or something?
• 59:55
  Don't tell me in your life when you've received shock and lose.
• 59:58
  You haven't just stand there staring for at least 30 seconds.
• 1:00:02
  But. It's very ACORN antiques, yeah.
• 1:00:06
  Well, all the music comes in. And then it has some of those.
• 1:00:14
  So you have that scene that's shot on film with because
• 1:00:17
  William Russell's got a week off with him and that lovely actor
• 1:00:20
  Jeffrey Wickham in in the prison and and Jeffrey Wickham sort of
• 1:00:24
  talks to him about La Chiangrey and all of that sort of thing,
• 1:00:26
  which we do. We do then that does have a pay
• 1:00:29
  off, But but then Ian suddenly remembers a bit that we've never
• 1:00:32
  seen, which is when he says, oh, he remembered the name of a pub
• 1:00:37
  and he goes and it's terrible righty because he goes.
• 1:00:40
  It was something about a sinking ship.
• 1:00:42
  No, no, no, not that, no, no, the sinking ship.
• 1:00:46
  That's like we go, what's that Doctor Who story called?
• 1:00:49
  Is it? And what you would do is if you
• 1:00:51
  didn't know, you'd go, is it? Is it the alien child?
• 1:00:54
  Is it the spooky child? Oh, no, no, it's the unearthly
• 1:00:57
  child. You wouldn't go.
• 1:00:58
  It's what's that doctor story called?
• 1:00:59
  It's it's unearthly child, Something unearthly.
• 1:01:01
  Oh, no, no, it's it's an unearthly child.
• 1:01:04
  It's that you wouldn't do, you know, it's the timeless child,
• 1:01:12
  But you don't forget the word the you know, I mean, and if
• 1:01:16
  you, if you do remember it, that doesn't suddenly become the key
• 1:01:19
  to it. So you know, there are, so I, I
• 1:01:23
  approve of it in principle. I think it I actually think it's
• 1:01:26
  because it's a one off director. It means it has a slightly
• 1:01:29
  different vibe to it. It does, it does have quite a a,
• 1:01:33
  you know, a broad scope to it. I don't think it captures the
• 1:01:38
  paranoia of the time as well as it could.
• 1:01:40
  You know, the French Revolution is all about who's shopping who
• 1:01:43
  and, you know, danger, like the doors being locked down at any
• 1:01:46
  time, everything being a little bit furtive.
• 1:01:48
  I think there is some of that in episodes four and five, which we
• 1:01:50
  don't have with the portrayal of the physician and and and, and
• 1:01:55
  Edward Brayshaw turning out to be a wrong and but I think I
• 1:01:57
  think there could be more of that to have it truly as the the
• 1:02:00
  land of fear. I do like the way it shows the
• 1:02:03
  mob as being grim. I do like the fact that they're
• 1:02:07
  all sort of swaggering and high on murderer.
• 1:02:09
  I think that's pretty horrible. And the way, you know, you know,
• 1:02:13
  spear getting, you know, they shoot him in the jaw and all of
• 1:02:16
  that sort of thing. And they have that that sort of
• 1:02:19
  those swag. And I'm always I'm always drawn
• 1:02:21
  to stories about how how reason leaves the mob.
• 1:02:25
  And those, those are stories that, you know, today are as
• 1:02:28
  relevant as ever in, in how our behaviour, how civilised people
• 1:02:32
  can be turned into thoughtless, you know, horrible killers and
• 1:02:37
  rather cruel if we, we, we are allowed to be.
• 1:02:40
  And, and I certainly think it captures that well with the, the
• 1:02:42
  fact that soldiers are all, you know, a bit, you know, one of
• 1:02:46
  them has got an eye patch, hasn't he?
• 1:02:47
  And they're all a bit, their hats are falling off.
• 1:02:49
  And I, I, I think that's really effective.
• 1:02:51
  And that's really sort of well, well done, But I just have to
• 1:02:56
  say I could talk a good game. But if you've said to me now sit
• 1:02:59
  down and watch any Doctor Who story you want to reign of
• 1:03:02
  terror would I would have to force myself to do it.
• 1:03:06
  And and as I say, I and that last, I mean that that the whole
• 1:03:12
  of the last episode, the the four leads essentially hide in a
• 1:03:18
  pub watching two other people we've never seen before have a.
• 1:03:23
  Have a chat. And, and the story, it's a
• 1:03:25
  really peculiar way to finish the story.
• 1:03:27
  It's almost going, well, we need to get Napoleon in somehow.
• 1:03:30
  But it, it, it just means that. So it's got sort of structural
• 1:03:33
  problems a bit like that. So yeah, I, I like it in theory,
• 1:03:37
  but in practice it's, it's, it's a, it's a tougher ask for me.
• 1:03:43
  So I'm afraid because I've had to stick to this strict four in,
• 1:03:49
  four out. Forcing.
• 1:03:51
  Myself to be cruel, it's close. It was close because I thought
• 1:03:55
  Gareth was a a good advocate. But the the comments helped me
• 1:03:59
  on my way. I am going to bin, I am going to
• 1:04:02
  guillotine in the Reign of Terror.
• 1:04:05
  You're going to rain on the Reign of Terror I.
• 1:04:07
  Am I'm going to rain on the Parade of the Rain?
• 1:04:11
  Go on Rod, you go first. Well.
• 1:04:13
  I'm going to also reign on the reign of the Reign of Terror.
• 1:04:17
  I think it'd be better, the reign of tedium.
• 1:04:19
  It's just not one for me. Joe's looking absolutely
• 1:04:24
  shocked, but. Well, I can't save it, can't I?
• 1:04:27
  No, you. Can't.
• 1:04:28
  It's it's, it's a goner. There's.
• 1:04:36
  Just a lot in here where we don't show and we don't tell.
• 1:04:41
  And I can't criticize 1964 Doctor Who for not showing us,
• 1:04:45
  you know, huge vistas of France, the height of revolution.
• 1:04:49
  That would be a little bit cruel.
• 1:04:50
  There are an awful lot of look over theirs.
• 1:04:52
  And here he comes and we never see the people coming or what's
• 1:04:56
  over there. But if I start on those kind of
• 1:04:58
  limitations, you know, that's a bit unfair.
• 1:05:02
  But my problem is they never actually tell us what's going on
• 1:05:06
  in this story, which I find totally baffling.
• 1:05:08
  Gareth, you talked earlier about your your father loving the
• 1:05:11
  historicals because they, you know, children of that era got a
• 1:05:16
  sense of the history and understood history more through
• 1:05:21
  what was going on on screen. But I just don't get that in
• 1:05:24
  this story. There's so little that's told to
• 1:05:26
  us. So in part one, the crew kind of
• 1:05:28
  deduced that we are in the the French Revolution, but there's
• 1:05:32
  never any description of what that means.
• 1:05:34
  We don't get what's the political setup, what's the
• 1:05:37
  social setup, The audience aren't told anything.
• 1:05:40
  We kind of expected to know straight away.
• 1:05:42
  I mean, compare that to modern Doctor where you'd have it
• 1:05:45
  absolutely explained to death. Here we get absolutely nothing
• 1:05:48
  apart from we told that it's the Doctor's favorite period, so
• 1:05:51
  surely it's all going to be very jolly Rod.
• 1:05:54
  I would say in the Aztecs where basically we land and we're
• 1:05:58
  suddenly given a list of facts and the history and the gods and
• 1:06:02
  like, you know, he's read the Ladybird book of the Aztecs and
• 1:06:05
  we're getting all that information in one go.
• 1:06:07
  I think I prefer this approach actually.
• 1:06:09
  This is the. Complete opposite, but again, if
• 1:06:11
  you were an audience watching it back in 1964, one episode a
• 1:06:15
  week, would you have really picked up what was going on?
• 1:06:18
  I think you'd lose something by getting a bit of I.
• 1:06:21
  I appreciate what you're saying, Joe.
• 1:06:23
  And sometimes some of the other stories are not immune to maybe
• 1:06:26
  over embellishing the detail, but I think we go too far here.
• 1:06:30
  So when we get to the characters like Jules and Jean and Leon, we
• 1:06:34
  don't know what they stand for. So how do we get to care for
• 1:06:37
  them if we don't really know what they stand for, what
• 1:06:39
  they're fighting for? It's not actually until episode
• 1:06:42
  5 when Ian and Barbara have a conversation about the French
• 1:06:46
  Revolution, and that's in a six part story.
• 1:06:49
  That's really quite an odd decision to wait to get to that
• 1:06:52
  point. You know, they could have
• 1:06:55
  addressed that by characters having some useful interaction.
• 1:06:58
  The Doctor, particularly the Doctor's very much reduced in
• 1:07:00
  this story to kind of comedy shtick.
• 1:07:03
  So he pulls the wool over the eyes of the overseer, then the
• 1:07:06
  tailor, then La Maitre, then the jailer, then Robe Spear.
• 1:07:09
  So he's got all these kind of little glorious.
• 1:07:11
  Surely you think all that's glorious.
• 1:07:14
  I enjoy it, but it's not moving the story on particularly and I
• 1:07:16
  just feel there's an emptiness at the heart of this story.
• 1:07:20
  Manic. Look, when he brings the spade
• 1:07:22
  down, it's wonderful. It's yeah, it's it's lacking
• 1:07:26
  something. I think Toby, you said he's
• 1:07:27
  lacking something. I feel exactly the same.
• 1:07:30
  And there's so many coincidences, which is my second
• 1:07:32
  point, is not a no. Doctor Who always relies on
• 1:07:35
  coincidences to move the plot along.
• 1:07:37
  But we do have an awful lot in this story, and when we've not
• 1:07:41
  got characters that I truly believe in, they become a little
• 1:07:43
  bit more obvious. So Ian just happens to be
• 1:07:46
  imprisoned with a French spy who just happens to give him a
• 1:07:49
  message on his deathbed. Susan and Barbara just happened
• 1:07:52
  to be rescued by the same person, the rescue's Ian.
• 1:07:55
  Leon turns out to be the traitor when he's the only possibility,
• 1:07:58
  and Lemaitre turns out to be James Sterling when he's the
• 1:08:01
  only other person in the cast. It's all just a little bit too
• 1:08:04
  convenient. Even the doctor has to wallop
• 1:08:06
  two people over the head to make an escape.
• 1:08:09
  It's all just a little bit too coincidental and coming back.
• 1:08:12
  My final point is, and this is really unfair, but hey, it's
• 1:08:16
  it's strictly Dennis Spooner is starting to do comedy.
• 1:08:20
  And if he's going down that path, I'd have loved him to go a
• 1:08:23
  little bit further. I want a bit more, if that's
• 1:08:26
  what you're bringing to the table, expand it, make it a
• 1:08:28
  little bit broader. So, yeah, we've talked about the
• 1:08:31
  Jaylee. He's given quite a Peter
• 1:08:33
  Butterworth performance from Carry On Camping, but I wanted
• 1:08:36
  to go a little bit further. Maybe it's my perverse.
• 1:08:39
  Yeah, it's maybe it's my perverse sense of humor.
• 1:08:41
  But we've got Jules and Jean, and every time they shout for
• 1:08:44
  Jules, I want Jules and Sandy from Round the Horn.
• 1:08:47
  I'm just desperate for them to come.
• 1:08:49
  They would be perfect. Two characters for.
• 1:08:51
  That sorry to keep interrupted. I do think it would be a bit
• 1:08:54
  jarring because I think we're shifting towards season 2.
• 1:08:58
  I don't think you can do like a Romans here because it would
• 1:09:01
  feel very weird after something as worthy and dull as oh, powder
• 1:09:04
  dry the sensor eyes to go into a, you know, a mad romp in
• 1:09:08
  history. So I think that the balance
• 1:09:10
  we've sort of got to ease our way in.
• 1:09:13
  Yeah, OK. But for me, it's lacking
• 1:09:15
  something. And if comedy is going to be the
• 1:09:17
  thing to hang your hat on on this one, and it could like
• 1:09:19
  those other historicals you mentioned, could, you know, turn
• 1:09:21
  on the dime in the last episode. But of course we got that awful
• 1:09:25
  last episode with. Napoleon.
• 1:09:27
  Rushing in, it's very odd and the only other one thinking of
• 1:09:30
  comedy again when he runs in with that scarf around his his
• 1:09:33
  face. I do want him to whip it off and
• 1:09:36
  say it is I Leclaire at the end and keep in keep in tune with
• 1:09:40
  LOLO, the other great French BBC production.
• 1:09:44
  So no, sorry, I'll just find it all a bit drub, a bit lifeless
• 1:09:48
  and a bit empty. So it's going for me.
• 1:09:50
  So it's in the Benjo. But please no defence.
• 1:09:53
  How sad. Well, I mean, I'll be quick
• 1:09:55
  because, you know, we've got to move on to the next ones.
• 1:09:57
  I do think in that anti climactic 6th episode, they
• 1:10:00
  could have had a lot of fun with Ian and Barbara running that
• 1:10:03
  Tavern, right? And it's very flat, which is
• 1:10:05
  weird because I think the rest of the story is actually a lot
• 1:10:07
  of fun. And what I think Dennis Spooner
• 1:10:09
  brings is less the comedy. What I felt watching this was
• 1:10:14
  just the dialogue lift in a very witty and energetic way.
• 1:10:18
  He does sort of quick, snappy dialogue, which I find really
• 1:10:21
  fun. And I think the regulars respond
• 1:10:24
  to it really well as well. I know Hartnell does in the next
• 1:10:26
  season. And that means you get great
• 1:10:27
  characterisation of the regulars as well.
• 1:10:29
  I don't. You love that scene in episode
• 1:10:30
  one where he's like, oh, off the ship with you.
• 1:10:33
  You know, I'm done with you people.
• 1:10:34
  And then Barbara's there sort of smoothing down his lapels and
• 1:10:38
  Ian's charming him. And it's sort of, it's a real
• 1:10:40
  sort of family feel at this point.
• 1:10:42
  And I think this sort of exploits that very, very well.
• 1:10:45
  I like the sort of the mixture of the comedy and the roughness
• 1:10:50
  of horror in this. I think the bit where the man
• 1:10:52
  gets shot in the jaw is quite graphic.
• 1:10:54
  They're being dragged to the guillotine that horrible, like
• 1:10:57
  you say, filthy boozy jailer, the doctor working in a sweat
• 1:11:01
  gang. I know it's played for laughs,
• 1:11:02
  but it's kind of a serious thing, the rats in the cell and
• 1:11:06
  Susan's. So I do, I think there's I do
• 1:11:08
  think there's efforts to make this a bit dirtier and a bit
• 1:11:10
  nastier whilst all the comedy is playing out.
• 1:11:14
  So I like that as well. But what I really just love in
• 1:11:16
  this story is what Gareth said is William Hartnell.
• 1:11:19
  So I think he's absolutely in his element by the end of the
• 1:11:21
  season. Like, he's gruff and charming
• 1:11:24
  with his friends at the start. He's got wonderfully charm.
• 1:11:27
  He works so well with kids. Why didn't they do more with him
• 1:11:29
  with kids? Because him with that, you know,
• 1:11:31
  to that little boy, it's lovely wandering around Paris, bluffing
• 1:11:36
  his way into the jail. I think he's authoritative,
• 1:11:39
  funny, heroic and moral in this story.
• 1:11:43
  We've reached the end of the season, and I think there are
• 1:11:45
  points in this season where it's far more Ian and Barbara story
• 1:11:48
  than the Doctors. I think by the time we get to
• 1:11:50
  the end of the season, Hartnell has kind of wrestled control and
• 1:11:54
  this is the Doctor's story from this point on, and I think he's
• 1:11:57
  wonderful now. Yeah, I had great fun with this,
• 1:11:59
  but it's in the bin. What am I going to do?
• 1:12:01
  It's. Interesting.
• 1:12:02
  I don't think any of us mention Susan in that at all.
• 1:12:06
  That's because. She's just wailed throughout.
• 1:12:08
  She's so. Superfluous to this story.
• 1:12:09
  The thing that really gets me is that we make all this business
• 1:12:12
  in episode four of her being I'll.
• 1:12:14
  We go on Susan's I'll. Where's Susan?
• 1:12:16
  She's in bed. She's I'll How's Susan?
• 1:12:17
  She's ill. And then suddenly she recovers
• 1:12:19
  off screen between 4:00 and 5:00.
• 1:12:21
  It's very odd. Was this the one?
• 1:12:23
  Where she screamed at the rat it is.
• 1:12:25
  It is. That's.
• 1:12:26
  The only memory I've got of her in this story, I'm upset.
• 1:12:28
  The thing she digs A. Little bit of dirt and screams
• 1:12:31
  and then collapses. Yeah, she's very, very
• 1:12:33
  underwritten at this stage, isn't she?
• 1:12:35
  It's. Actually, Caroline's Ford I feel
• 1:12:37
  sorry for because going back to an Unearthly Child, you go back
• 1:12:40
  to that first episode where she's playing that sort of
• 1:12:43
  exotic Unearthly Child. It's really interesting.
• 1:12:46
  If they had a run with it, it would have been great.
• 1:12:49
  She's. Given nothing to work with so
• 1:12:50
  Brain of Terror is the 1st fall Sylla V Joe pick up story I.
• 1:12:56
  Would like to do something I've never would have done in a
• 1:12:59
  million years and that is champion.
• 1:13:00
  The Keys of Mariners, please, Because for no other reason
• 1:13:06
  really than my other half has taught me to love really shit
• 1:13:10
  Doctor Who. Because I think Once Upon a time
• 1:13:14
  I had a big problem with stories like the Android invasion Planet
• 1:13:17
  of the Daleks, Not The Chase so much and Keys of Mariners, and
• 1:13:20
  they're four of his favourites. And somehow he's managed to
• 1:13:23
  seduce me and romance me to the Keys of Mariners ways.
• 1:13:28
  And it's all the things that he loves basically.
• 1:13:30
  So he loves the Terry Nation part one and all the cliches.
• 1:13:33
  And this falls into all the cliches.
• 1:13:35
  He likes all these sort of travel log Doctor Who stories
• 1:13:37
  where we go to different locations.
• 1:13:38
  He's weak because he keeps being snappy and fun.
• 1:13:41
  He likes entertaining Doctor Who that isn't trying to be
• 1:13:44
  particularly complex for its own good, but is really ridiculous.
• 1:13:48
  And a bit through B movie as well.
• 1:13:50
  Like he loves all of this and I've watched this with him a
• 1:13:52
  couple of Times Now. And so my first reason is just,
• 1:13:56
  he loves it and I love him, so he's made me.
• 1:14:01
  My second reason is count the sheer dangers that the Doctor,
• 1:14:06
  Susan, Ian and Barbara go through in this acid sees knife
• 1:14:10
  wielding voids, homicidal brains in jars, a screaming jungle,
• 1:14:15
  terrifying rapist, snows of terror, ice guards, and a
• 1:14:21
  vicious legal system. I mean, Terry Nation is not
• 1:14:23
  short of ideas, right? Maybe you should have pulled one
• 1:14:26
  or two out. In fact, he's got loads to come.
• 1:14:28
  We're still going to do the chase.
• 1:14:29
  Yet he doesn't let the audience chill out for one minute before
• 1:14:34
  throwing another set piece. And dangerous.
• 1:14:35
  I don't really think there's time to be bored in this.
• 1:14:38
  But you're. Always in another place which
• 1:14:40
  has been realised fairly well and he's always throwing new
• 1:14:44
  dangers at you and, and I just find that very fun to watch.
• 1:14:48
  And my third reason is, and this is something you're all going to
• 1:14:52
  understand whether you like this story or not, and that is
• 1:14:54
  hanging out with the Tardish regulars for six episodes.
• 1:14:57
  And I think this is the point where I realized that this is
• 1:15:01
  more Ian and Barbara's story than the Doctors at this point
• 1:15:04
  because he fucks off for two episodes in the middle of this
• 1:15:07
  and I barely noticed he was gone because they are.
• 1:15:09
  I cannot take my eyes off of Jacqueline Hill and William
• 1:15:12
  Russell, especially Jacqueline Hill, but I just think they're
• 1:15:14
  mesmerizing to watch. Caroline Ford is there as well.
• 1:15:18
  But never mind. No, let's give her some credit.
• 1:15:21
  She's quite fun. But when Hartnell does return in
• 1:15:24
  the last two episodes, he's had a, you know, a.
• 1:15:27
  Few. Late nights, a few drinks, he's
• 1:15:30
  been off the way to the Barbados or wherever he heads.
• 1:15:32
  He's so reinvigorated. He's full of energy.
• 1:15:35
  He's in that when he's trying to figure out his Poirot moment,
• 1:15:38
  he's going around waving his cane about and that he's he's so
• 1:15:41
  much fun to watch. I think by the end of this
• 1:15:45
  story, we've had the initial story where they met, we've had
• 1:15:50
  the Daleks, which is their first step onto an alien planet.
• 1:15:52
  We've done Edge of Destruction where it's the paranoia story,
• 1:15:55
  you know the the lottery story where they're all against each
• 1:15:58
  other. We've done the the long sort of
• 1:16:01
  journey in Marco Polo. By the end of the Keys of
• 1:16:04
  Mariners. I think they are the perfect
• 1:16:06
  family at this point and I just think they're a delight to
• 1:16:10
  watch. So yeah, for the fact that it's
• 1:16:12
  camp and I love camp. Doctor Who B movie fun.
• 1:16:15
  The fact that my other half adores this.
• 1:16:17
  And frankly, I promised him that I would defend this because I
• 1:16:21
  just love these characters. And we are basically just
• 1:16:23
  watching them wail about and jump over ice ravines and, you
• 1:16:28
  know, try and avoid acid seas and crazy shit like this.
• 1:16:32
  I think it's it's the most entertaining story of the first
• 1:16:35
  season and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
• 1:16:38
  Fabulous. Let's go to the comments.
• 1:16:41
  Gavin says divine Altos and his legs.
• 1:16:43
  Altos and his legs gets quite a few comments from the strictly
• 1:16:46
  listeners. I'm not sure if we're appealing
• 1:16:48
  to a particular demographic, but Yep, Altos and his legs Fiona
• 1:16:52
  Walker diva ring it up and the regulars on top form.
• 1:16:55
  Oh. Gary Russell, you break my
• 1:16:57
  heart. Episodes 2-3 and four are some
• 1:16:59
  of the worst TV ever made. Fairly sweeping.
• 1:17:03
  Statement Paul Quinn says the key to time done with greater
• 1:17:06
  economy. Certainly nation is thinking in
• 1:17:08
  terms of planets with different continents and cultures.
• 1:17:11
  But there's also an unsettling suggestion of sexual brutality
• 1:17:14
  and domestic violence, which will thankfully disappear once
• 1:17:17
  the idea of how to make Doctor Who becomes embedded in the
• 1:17:20
  production team just because. You can do anything, it doesn't
• 1:17:24
  mean you should. Jason Thompson Yes, some of it
• 1:17:26
  looks cheap, but So what? The variety of settings and the
• 1:17:29
  conviction of the leads makes it a compelling quest.
• 1:17:32
  You can really see how Hartnell was benefited from a couple of
• 1:17:34
  weeks off when he comes back full of energy.
• 1:17:37
  One other thing, Transport. Transport from place to place
• 1:17:40
  via a bracelet, A supercomputer made out of perfect tubes and
• 1:17:44
  flashing lights. Terry Nation, you say?
• 1:17:47
  Interesting. Jack Coyer says I don't think
• 1:17:50
  man was made to be controlled by machines only people should
• 1:17:54
  delineate their own laws. I find it charming when a
• 1:17:57
  Hartnell story spells out its message so clearly.
• 1:18:00
  The scenes where the TARDIS crew play along with Barbara's
• 1:18:02
  delusions are hilarious. Ian and the Doctor do Good
• 1:18:05
  impression of Doctor Who fans looking at a dirty, cheap empty
• 1:18:09
  room and pretending it's an impressive set, but maybe the
• 1:18:12
  weakest ending of the season, that is.
• 1:18:15
  Some acting Isn't it Michael Storm a throwback to Flash Flash
• 1:18:18
  Gordon that stretches the budget to it's limit with a brand new
• 1:18:21
  setting and cast each episode. The individual minisotes are OK,
• 1:18:25
  but it fails to come to come together as a satisfactory whole
• 1:18:28
  and I want to know how a civilization has invented a
• 1:18:31
  supercomputer that can control minds but not trousers.
• 1:18:35
  David Gillespie Pratt is the first fun Doctor Who story.
• 1:18:39
  It's all very broad but never dull.
• 1:18:41
  Yes, the production is on the wobbly side but so much
• 1:18:44
  imagination and legs on display always gets a kicking from fans
• 1:18:48
  which is not deserved. Darren Lit roundels a good old
• 1:18:51
  fashioned run around. Shame we lose Hartno in the
• 1:18:53
  middle, but when you've got Ian and Barbara, they're enough
• 1:18:56
  Jewish and fun. Dave Rennie said keep it for
• 1:18:58
  Hartnell's wig alone. Yes, the final courtroom
• 1:19:01
  episodes slow it down, but it's fab.
• 1:19:03
  And the brains of Morphodon are a clever creation.
• 1:19:06
  Andrew. Rosley The border a bit
• 1:19:08
  underwhelming, but there's some lovely model work and our heroes
• 1:19:10
  deciding to split up Divide and conquer makes the whole thing
• 1:19:14
  feel a lot more like a grand adventure.
• 1:19:16
  Hartnell Hartnell owns part 5 for sure.
• 1:19:20
  Keep it. James H, Said Terry Nationwide,
• 1:19:22
  Doctor Who, The Boy's Own Comic. Nice legs, very disturbing
• 1:19:26
  attempted rape, weird ice soldier things and a nifty
• 1:19:30
  courtroom drama. The most real planet we've ever
• 1:19:32
  had, though, and a back story. I wish we could have explored
• 1:19:35
  more. Keep it.
• 1:19:37
  Matt Lee, Newby Mariners is at the bottom, a poorly written
• 1:19:40
  Saturday matinee serial which throws logic out the window but
• 1:19:44
  at least plugs the gap. John Ben Salias average comic
• 1:19:47
  book pulp, but it's all over the place.
• 1:19:49
  One minute it's eerie boggle eyed turd in a jar 1984
• 1:19:54
  storytelling, the next minute Barbara's uncomfortably at the
• 1:19:56
  mercy of a creepy perv in an ice tundra.
• 1:19:59
  Minus points for courtroom tedium.
• 1:20:02
  My least favorite genre along with musicals.
• 1:20:05
  Annual night, a great 4 parter. Sadly, the middle two are
• 1:20:08
  superfluous and cheap in ideas and production thanks to the
• 1:20:12
  nation's reliance on old fashioned pulp ideas.
• 1:20:15
  I love this. Ford could be great villains,
• 1:20:18
  but arm Andy. Parkinson said the series
• 1:20:20
  highlight despite its flaws. Its variety keeps you
• 1:20:23
  interested, Rod. How many comments did we have on
• 1:20:25
  the keys of Mariners? I know.
• 1:20:27
  It's all, it's all. It's all legs and pulp though,
• 1:20:29
  isn't it? It's.
• 1:20:29
  Good and full of ambition, but I would love.
• 1:20:32
  But I want to love it more than I do Philip.
• 1:20:34
  Nichols says one of the more interesting stories as it's
• 1:20:37
  written by Terry Nation, yet isn't just his beloved Daleks
• 1:20:40
  an. Ultimate comment LSJ underrated
• 1:20:43
  fun, but do we really need that rapey guy in it?
• 1:20:46
  And. Finally, Paul Smyth is a decent
• 1:20:47
  quest story. The Void or a dreadful villain,
• 1:20:50
  Though Hartnell being absent for half the story doesn't help it.
• 1:20:54
  So let's go to Toby. Toby Joe has spoken glowingly
• 1:20:57
  about the Keys of Marius. Are you up for the quest?
• 1:21:02
  Well now listen. Lovely to hear Joe being an
• 1:21:05
  advocate for this. Four episodes, helpy fun.
• 1:21:08
  And I think there's six episodes of helpy fun.
• 1:21:10
  I think there's nothing wrong with Doctor Who being helpy fun.
• 1:21:13
  Doctor whose main remit is to be entertaining a zestful
• 1:21:18
  adventure. And if there's a some text that
• 1:21:20
  makes you think, excellent. If there's a bit of comedy in
• 1:21:23
  there, even better. If there's a bit of a point to
• 1:21:26
  be made or or an extra dimension of creativity, wonderful.
• 1:21:30
  But first and foremost, Doctor Who is to be family friendly,
• 1:21:34
  Jeopardy filled fun, zesty adventure.
• 1:21:37
  And Terry Nation succeeds in that.
• 1:21:39
  And obviously was a boon to the production team because he
• 1:21:42
  produced scripts that they could do as he presented them.
• 1:21:47
  But much like Bob Baker and Dave Martin, the production team
• 1:21:50
  always seem to sort of say, yeah, and they gave us scripts
• 1:21:52
  that they could do, but they gave me scripts that you could
• 1:21:54
  do set in places that you could never build.
• 1:21:57
  But nonetheless, and you know, I I do like AB movie I I, I do
• 1:22:04
  like the sort of fun questy side of things, but but stop it.
• 1:22:19
  Doesn't matter, you were. Reaching for the words that
• 1:22:21
  open. It was sticking in your throat.
• 1:22:23
  That's. Never mattered with Doctor Who.
• 1:22:26
  And it's. Because I remember reading the
• 1:22:28
  book and finding the book quite a giddying experience.
• 1:22:32
  Philip Pinchcliff is very good at making it claustrophobic and
• 1:22:34
  uncomfortable and and seeming like something that that, you
• 1:22:38
  know, hit hits you on all the senses.
• 1:22:41
  But what we get from a fine TV director, John Gowrie, who is
• 1:22:45
  also a very lovely man. And to his, I think he's 92 now,
• 1:22:50
  but he could pass for 70s. An extraordinary fellow John
• 1:22:52
  Gowrie and has had a wonderful career.
• 1:22:56
  But but I, I, I think and, and just some really and so I mean,
• 1:23:01
  I, I actually love that scene that's already been mentioned
• 1:23:05
  where they're looking at the tin mug and going.
• 1:23:08
  This is a marvellous piece of invention.
• 1:23:10
  I think the whole way that the velvet web is rendered and what
• 1:23:13
  a lovely title that is as well. The Velvet Web, I think is a
• 1:23:17
  beautiful, beautifully sort of poetic episode title.
• 1:23:22
  Is it The Velvet Web is also the first story where you get the
• 1:23:25
  the episode title on the title sequence rather than in the
• 1:23:28
  anyway, let's not get into trivia.
• 1:23:30
  You could say that everything I say is trivia.
• 1:23:32
  Shut up. I will.
• 1:23:32
  Right. Listen.
• 1:23:33
  So, and I think there are attempts to do something like
• 1:23:40
  that where you've got the where you've got the, you know,
• 1:23:42
  Barbara seeing the grim world and everybody else seeing the
• 1:23:45
  opulence and all that. I think there are some really
• 1:23:48
  bold attempt to do interesting stuff that is giddying on the
• 1:23:52
  viewer. And as I say that that's a
• 1:23:54
  that's a almost meta. The the scene where they're
• 1:23:57
  going, this is this is marvellous.
• 1:23:58
  And it looks like a, you know, piece of shit.
• 1:24:01
  And do you like the, do you like the little cardboard board that
• 1:24:04
  goes Yeah. Down the ravine.
• 1:24:06
  But. Again, that's that's, that's
• 1:24:08
  John. No, that was that was Ray Cusick
• 1:24:12
  say you need to see that or you wouldn't know what will have
• 1:24:15
  happened because because their original plan was not to have
• 1:24:17
  that. So and I quite like the way he
• 1:24:19
  splashes. I think ah is rather plain to
• 1:24:24
  but you got talking brains in jars.
• 1:24:26
  I mean, they are fantastic visual and Heron Carvic's voice
• 1:24:30
  is rather sly and and very engaging, but then Barbara
• 1:24:35
  spectacularly fails to smash any of them.
• 1:24:41
  You know, they go to great trouble to take Altos and
• 1:24:44
  Sabitha with them, who then sort of don't really do anything
• 1:24:47
  apart from being somebody extra to talk to.
• 1:24:51
  And you don't you don't stay anywhere long enough to invest
• 1:24:55
  in the individual story. The individual stories are so
• 1:24:58
  slight that you've barely got any time to sort of invest or
• 1:25:04
  register and you're on to the next one.
• 1:25:06
  Now that that should suggest you have a galloping narrative, but
• 1:25:09
  it still has plenty of longers and and actually the you know,
• 1:25:14
  the and there's plenty of that kind of, you know, the courtroom
• 1:25:16
  one is is partly solved by, you know, the the the accused going.
• 1:25:22
  But hang on you. What doesn't he?
• 1:25:23
  He shouts out, but but she wasn't supposed to say that or
• 1:25:26
  whatever, you know, gives gives it gives the game away.
• 1:25:30
  And that's a very, you know, the simplicity of it or the
• 1:25:33
  simplistic approach is taken. You know very much that doesn't
• 1:25:37
  the city of millenniums go well in in our city, you are guilty
• 1:25:41
  until proven innocent. And you go, oh, come on mate, do
• 1:25:45
  you know what I mean? Because in space we do things
• 1:25:47
  differently. Yes, in space no one can hear
• 1:25:51
  your solicitor. But and and and then and then
• 1:25:56
  and I've I'm aware I've taken you all around the houses to
• 1:26:00
  then get to a conclusion that doesn't matter anyway because
• 1:26:05
  the they've gone to get the whole quest is is being
• 1:26:09
  redundant by the end when. Yeah, please bring these things
• 1:26:13
  back because of this thing which is basically something we used
• 1:26:16
  to drug and subjugate our population.
• 1:26:20
  Yeah, we'll help you do that. But then we have to blow and
• 1:26:23
  they don't blow it up because it's bad when he's, you know
• 1:26:26
  that code of gold. Well, I don't think machines
• 1:26:29
  should rule men. They only do because they've
• 1:26:30
  just broken the machine. It's a, it's a bit like, you
• 1:26:33
  know, it's a bit like smashing somebody's window in and going,
• 1:26:35
  well, I think you should have a door here anyways, you know what
• 1:26:38
  I mean? I'd say is it the only they're
• 1:26:39
  only doing it because they've broken it was which car having a
• 1:26:43
  day off then because you think you'd go, well we've had 65
• 1:26:46
  episodes of this now, should we not end this, you know, by a
• 1:26:49
  match? But did they not do the same in
• 1:26:52
  in the Key to Time season? Well, pretty much, yes, yes,
• 1:26:57
  yeah. Don't go looking for keys.
• 1:26:58
  It'll only. It's the journey, though.
• 1:27:01
  Isn't it the journey that matters, though?
• 1:27:05
  Not when the not, not when each individual portion of the
• 1:27:08
  journey is so slight that you, you know, having gone.
• 1:27:11
  OK. Well, we've had lots of bits of
• 1:27:12
  trivia, but it's leading somewhere.
• 1:27:15
  Oh, it's, it's not really leading anywhere either.
• 1:27:17
  Look, I, I love all of the Doctor Joey.
• 1:27:20
  I, I could have happily put this through because I love Ian and
• 1:27:23
  Barbara and I love Doctor Who. But I, I can't choose a story to
• 1:27:29
  go through just because it's got Ian and Barbara in it, because
• 1:27:31
  otherwise I choose all of the Ian and Barbara stories.
• 1:27:34
  And that would just be said, I could do that with everything.
• 1:27:36
  Can I ask you a question though, because, you know, as a keen
• 1:27:39
  listener of your podcast, is this one of those stories that
• 1:27:43
  sort of when you were younger, you know, you described the sort
• 1:27:45
  of furious child who you wanted Doctor Who to be good.
• 1:27:49
  Was this the sort of story that really annoyed you because it
• 1:27:52
  wasn't good and there was production hiccups and things
• 1:27:54
  like this. But the sort of story that
• 1:27:55
  you've gone on the I've seen this wonderful journey you've
• 1:27:59
  got on and learnt to love over time.
• 1:28:02
  Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't actually
• 1:28:04
  with this. My journey with Keys is that I
• 1:28:06
  think I'd really, I'd found the book, you know, quite difficult,
• 1:28:10
  but it seemed like quite a sort of lofty story.
• 1:28:13
  And then I watched it and just found it a bit, as I say, a bit
• 1:28:16
  sort of trivial because it didn't didn't really hang around
• 1:28:19
  a bit unsatisfying. And then of course, I got into
• 1:28:23
  my sort of discontinuity guide period where you'd be looking
• 1:28:26
  out for production mistakes of my God.
• 1:28:29
  I mean, if you were to send it through on a heroic level of.
• 1:28:34
  Backups. I mean if.
• 1:28:35
  If Dennis Norden was on here, this would be this would be
• 1:28:38
  straight. I mean, so much goes wrong in
• 1:28:40
  the first episode and you know that, yeah, it's, it's and
• 1:28:48
  actually, so it's quite fun to watch in that sense of going
• 1:28:51
  bloody hell, you can you know, there's, there's, there's lots,
• 1:28:54
  there's lots to lap up here. If you're one that's prone to
• 1:28:57
  look for, you know, gaffes. But but now, as I say, I'm, I'm,
• 1:29:02
  I'm, I'm, I tend to take stuff on its own terms now.
• 1:29:05
  And so I just, if I'm in the mood to watch a story, I'll
• 1:29:08
  watch it and I'll I'll enjoy it. But but we're trying to but I
• 1:29:14
  don't think it's very good. And I actually quite like the
• 1:29:18
  board. I think that I think there's an
• 1:29:20
  attempt to be interesting with their with their rubber heads.
• 1:29:22
  You know, I think that's that's quite fun.
• 1:29:25
  You know, they've they've aimed tied by getting George Q Lewis
• 1:29:28
  in the only actor to have been in Citizen Kane and Doctor Who.
• 1:29:31
  I think it would be great if he'd learned his lines, that one
• 1:29:34
  line that he does where he walks across the set for about 10
• 1:29:38
  seconds and he just sort of turns around and goes, you will
• 1:29:41
  find the keys. For me, it's like, have you ever
• 1:29:45
  acted before? I know he's a good actor.
• 1:29:48
  But he's just looking off train all the time.
• 1:29:50
  You know there's someone there holding cue cards for him.
• 1:29:52
  Is he? New to TV at this point.
• 1:29:55
  No, he's no because he's played Doctor Who.
• 1:29:57
  He played hardcore Harcourt Brown in in Pathfinders, the
• 1:30:02
  Malcolm Hulk and Eric Pacers where he's this mysterious guy
• 1:30:05
  who goes into space and tries to get in the way of the goody
• 1:30:08
  space travellers and is a bit of a sort of weird, slightly
• 1:30:11
  shadowy anti hero type figure. He's the kind of template for
• 1:30:15
  Doctor Who in Pathfinders. So he's done telly.
• 1:30:18
  He's done. Maybe, Maybe he.
• 1:30:20
  Felt pissed off because he hadn't been off of the lead role
• 1:30:22
  so he thought I'll just undermine it by not learning any
• 1:30:25
  of my lines. Well, I, you know, I mean, I've
• 1:30:29
  got the, I've done quite a lot of research into me.
• 1:30:31
  So I've actually spoken to his, his son who's really weirdly 86.
• 1:30:36
  That's weird, isn't it? Because you think of somebody's
• 1:30:37
  son can't be 86. Well, of course he can be.
• 1:30:40
  But I mean, he was, he thought Citizen Kane was shit.
• 1:30:43
  So who knows what he thought of the keys of marrying us.
• 1:30:46
  You know what I mean? He just took the check and ran.
• 1:30:52
  But and I like, I actually like, I think when they bring Yartech
• 1:30:57
  in who's not in it for longer. Stephen Darkna was great, you
• 1:31:00
  know, and he's got a lovely pinched sort of voice.
• 1:31:02
  And you sort of think, oh, we've got the sort of King void now.
• 1:31:05
  This is, this is getting quite sexy.
• 1:31:07
  But it's, it's too little, too late really.
• 1:31:11
  And I like some of the visuals. I yeah, I think it's, I think
• 1:31:15
  it's ambitious in terms of its scope, not particularly in terms
• 1:31:18
  of its intellect. And, and maybe that's what
• 1:31:22
  appeals to me more that something that I think it's easy
• 1:31:25
  to write 3 or 4, you know, wacky locations.
• 1:31:28
  I think it's harder to write something that's more, more
• 1:31:31
  ambitious on a, on a thoughtful level, you know what I mean?
• 1:31:34
  And so, but maybe that's just my, you know, pretentious taste
• 1:31:38
  and that I should get over myself.
• 1:31:39
  But it's with the best will in the world.
• 1:31:42
  It is a bit shit. It's, it's, it's a bit shit.
• 1:31:48
  Hey Gareth, Which? Side of the camp are you going
• 1:31:51
  to fall on? Right.
• 1:31:53
  Well, I mean, I do understand Toby's consternation on this one
• 1:31:57
  because for me, this is one that I flip-flopped on.
• 1:32:00
  It's the first one I I've watched for this.
• 1:32:04
  And at the very beginning, I, yeah, no, I like it.
• 1:32:09
  I like the, I like the Odyssey nature of the story.
• 1:32:12
  You know, the Odyssey separate vignettes that get you to a
• 1:32:16
  certain point. Wonderful Smash.
• 1:32:17
  That's my kind of storytelling. And then I started spotting all
• 1:32:22
  the foibles and then I suddenly got to the point of why do I
• 1:32:25
  care about any of this anymore? Oh, yes.
• 1:32:29
  So I, I got through the 1st episode and I mean, you know,
• 1:32:34
  the things about getting the keys and getting all that and
• 1:32:35
  isn't all that wonderful that we've got to do it and we've got
• 1:32:37
  to get done. And we don't actually get back
• 1:32:39
  to that point till 12 minutes, 50 seconds into the last
• 1:32:43
  episode. So actually we're going to rush
• 1:32:44
  through that very end, that very important thing we had to do for
• 1:32:46
  the last six weeks and oh, there we go.
• 1:32:48
  I'm off. And it was like, what happened?
• 1:32:52
  What And if this machine exists and it's there and you're going
• 1:32:55
  to use it, why doesn't everyone in the world know about this
• 1:32:57
  machine existed and was controlling them support only
• 1:32:59
  some of them were controlling the whole world.
• 1:33:02
  We can't decide if it's in the same planet, different planets.
• 1:33:05
  There's no context to any of it. So why haven't we just gone back
• 1:33:09
  to 1963 Earth instead to find a key?
• 1:33:12
  Then there's the contrivance of those blooming pipes in the ice
• 1:33:15
  cave. It's.
• 1:33:17
  Not going to. Skip.
• 1:33:20
  Room. In a bit of cold.
• 1:33:23
  Bit of cold. Tundra, OH.
• 1:33:25
  I've got this key. That's got to be put somewhere
• 1:33:27
  safe. I know.
• 1:33:28
  Oh, I'll put it in ice. I'll just wait a bit for the ice
• 1:33:30
  to appear. Oh, no, I'll tell you what, I'm
• 1:33:32
  going to get a plumber as well to put all this plumbing to get
• 1:33:34
  into the core to build all these pipes.
• 1:33:36
  They're not straight either. They're kind of going or angles.
• 1:33:40
  It's like you want. Someone to get the keys.
• 1:33:43
  Perfectly reasonable when you're taking.
• 1:33:44
  The key away was to keep it away from people.
• 1:33:47
  Why make it accessible then? This.
• 1:33:52
  I think the trial. Scenes are the best for me,
• 1:33:56
  without a doubt, hands down. Hartnell is ABS having an
• 1:33:58
  absolute ball during that. But as Toby's pointed out, the
• 1:34:02
  the way that they get out of it is somebody say something and
• 1:34:05
  someone jumps up because hello. And then they do it again with
• 1:34:07
  Fiona Walker later on. The same bit that we've already
• 1:34:10
  done what we're employing it again, Andy.
• 1:34:13
  It just feels a little bit tired.
• 1:34:14
  It almost almost feels like it's been written by someone who
• 1:34:18
  didn't quite have a complete idea what to fill in for.
• 1:34:20
  Six episodes had a series of very short six stories.
• 1:34:24
  I thought we can thread them through with something and
• 1:34:27
  that's what we're going to put together.
• 1:34:29
  And it's, on the face of it, it's harmless, but I just had so
• 1:34:35
  many problems with watching it. I, I just, I just couldn't get
• 1:34:39
  beyond these, these things kept popping up every so often.
• 1:34:42
  And I just, I just didn't care enough about the keys.
• 1:34:46
  I'm like, why, why are we even here now?
• 1:34:47
  I, I, I want to be out of this. So I'm afraid it's a no from me.
• 1:34:52
  I. Mean.
• 1:34:52
  I think it's worth remembering though.
• 1:34:54
  Am I the youngest person here? I'm not entirely.
• 1:34:58
  Yeah, you. Are OK.
• 1:34:59
  Oh, how lovely. And I'm 44, but I wonder if
• 1:35:06
  you're like five years old and the idea of, you know, Doctor
• 1:35:10
  Who and the exciting adventure on Mariners, where, Oh my God,
• 1:35:13
  where are we going to go next week?
• 1:35:15
  We went to the ice tundra last week, the jungle before that.
• 1:35:18
  And I wonder where the key is going to be.
• 1:35:20
  We're playing Hunt the Key. Were playing on the key with the
• 1:35:23
  creepy rapist guy in his Canon. What joy.
• 1:35:25
  That is a slight flaw in my argument there, yes.
• 1:35:29
  I do wonder though, if if four younger children, this is sort
• 1:35:34
  of perfect. That's.
• 1:35:35
  The way you like it now, Joe Barbara.
• 1:35:37
  Smashing the brains. Barbara smashing the brains is
• 1:35:40
  another logic jump. How does she know smashing the
• 1:35:42
  brains is going to solve everything?
• 1:35:44
  Because she randomly hits things, She's.
• 1:35:45
  Repelled by them. So it's the first thing she
• 1:35:48
  thinks about doing. There's plenty of things I've
• 1:35:51
  I've I've felt repulsed about but I can't say the first thing
• 1:35:54
  I thought was just wailing my fists around and hoping that it
• 1:35:57
  would all go away from me. I'm so.
• 1:35:58
  Pleased I've got quite a pretty face.
• 1:36:00
  Don't hit me. But but, but actually she wanted
• 1:36:05
  to smash the brains, but it turned out that accidentally not
• 1:36:07
  smashing them was what killed them.
• 1:36:09
  So that was a happy accident, wasn't it?
• 1:36:11
  Well, it's just smashing one of them.
• 1:36:13
  They just sort of go flaccid, didn't they?
• 1:36:14
  It's very odd. We can't use the word flaccid,
• 1:36:18
  Joe. We've got in trouble.
• 1:36:19
  With using the word. Flaccid on this podcast?
• 1:36:21
  Well, we've invited the two biggest grumps on the planet.
• 1:36:25
  How can you want to throw? Out the keys of Mariners.
• 1:36:29
  It's glorious. Joe, for once, I'm totally on
• 1:36:33
  board with you. It had to.
• 1:36:34
  Happen one day it did. Didn't it?
• 1:36:36
  It's wonderful. I don't know what these other
• 1:36:37
  two are talking about. Happy times and places my ass.
• 1:36:41
  This is it glorious. I mean the scale on the scope of
• 1:36:46
  this story, you know, OK, I'm going to mix kind of times here,
• 1:36:50
  but you've got a chase across different locations trying to
• 1:36:53
  find a Mcguffin. Like, I don't know, the Rise of
• 1:36:56
  Skywalker. You've got a mind bending
• 1:36:58
  reality like the Matrix. You've got pursuit across an
• 1:37:02
  unforgiving landscape by a by a killer like in a horror film.
• 1:37:05
  You've got Indiana Jones crying out loud.
• 1:37:07
  Hunt for a crystal in stone idols.
• 1:37:10
  You've got John Grisham courtroom drama.
• 1:37:12
  You've got a rousing climax where the Mcguffin turned back
• 1:37:16
  on the villains just like raids of the Lost Ark on all of this
• 1:37:19
  with a brand new rubber faced villain to rival the dialects.
• 1:37:23
  How can you not fall for a pitch like that?
• 1:37:26
  No wonder Verity Commission that is because you've.
• 1:37:28
  Only got the budget of play school.
• 1:37:30
  That's what I think their complaint is.
• 1:37:32
  Maybe, yeah, maybe that didn't get pitched, but on paper just,
• 1:37:37
  and I'm going to use this expression a few times this
• 1:37:39
  podcast, but just the balls to Commission this with that kind
• 1:37:43
  of scale and scope and think, yeah, we can do that in Lime
• 1:37:46
  Grove Studios. Of course we can.
• 1:37:48
  And we can make it look realistic.
• 1:37:50
  I should just I've got to hold my heart up to them.
• 1:37:52
  It's grand ambition. Yes, it it probably does fall
• 1:37:56
  down more than once, even more than that forward, down the down
• 1:38:00
  the chute. But I just, you know, I it's
• 1:38:02
  just a whole lot of fun, isn't it?
• 1:38:04
  And for 25 minutes a week, as would have been then, it's just
• 1:38:09
  rollicking good entertainment. So yeah, I love it.
• 1:38:13
  Second reason, I put him as Ian and Barbara.
• 1:38:14
  We keep mentioning Ian and Barbara.
• 1:38:16
  Joe, you mentioned it rightly. That absolutely at the heart of
• 1:38:19
  this, all the way through from Morphetron, when Barbara is the
• 1:38:23
  one that works out what's going on, she resolves the plot.
• 1:38:26
  Then obviously they're the only ones in the in the jungle, You
• 1:38:30
  know, they're so central to all of this, you know that.
• 1:38:33
  Bit in the. Jungle where they're looking for
• 1:38:35
  the formula for the thing. I felt like I was watching the
• 1:38:38
  crystal fucking. It's over there for God.
• 1:38:40
  'S sake so. When Gareth was talking about
• 1:38:43
  the pipes before and the key hidden, it's so Crystal Maze.
• 1:38:48
  Yeah, before it's time. But yeah, I just think it's
• 1:38:51
  great. And you've got great cust.
• 1:38:52
  You've got Francis de Wolfe, who we're going to see shortly in
• 1:38:54
  the Myth Makers. We've got Donald Pickering,
• 1:38:56
  Fiona Walk, Lady Painforth. We've got in this in a early
• 1:39:00
  role. And of course Yartech.
• 1:39:01
  Stephen Darnell is we're going to see him shortly as John in
• 1:39:05
  the Sensorites. So we've got a great cast in
• 1:39:07
  here. Yeah, I love it.
• 1:39:08
  But clearly these two old commotions are saying no to it
• 1:39:12
  and it's going in the bin. I thought this was going to be
• 1:39:14
  another. Season where everything was
• 1:39:15
  going through, you know? So did I.
• 1:39:17
  Well, I'm. I'm I'm doing it for happy times
• 1:39:19
  and places soon and I will say completely the but I mean that's
• 1:39:24
  part of the fun as well is the trouble.
• 1:39:26
  I'm doing it right now for too much information and I will be
• 1:39:29
  sort of celebrating the minutiae of it.
• 1:39:31
  But well, one can do both. That's the beauty of the show
• 1:39:35
  and what one doesn't always want to say the same thing.
• 1:39:38
  And and also I was just I nearly saved this one of my all time
• 1:39:42
  favourite moments in .2. But it's part of .2 Archaeology,
• 1:39:45
  which is the extra feature where they try to infuse Raymond
• 1:39:49
  Cusick. About work on.
• 1:39:51
  Doctor Who and and it almost did desperation.
• 1:39:54
  They say yes. And is there anything you're
• 1:39:56
  proud of with Keys Mariners? So doesn't he sort of go?
• 1:39:59
  No, not really. He's nothing if not honest.
• 1:40:06
  The thing? About this format is, I mean I
• 1:40:08
  recently did something that almost made Rod want to quit was
• 1:40:12
  when I went after the Curse of Fenrik, but I could so easily
• 1:40:15
  have gone the other way and I think you can do it with most
• 1:40:17
  stories. And take.
• 1:40:19
  Everything with a pinch of salt, people.
• 1:40:20
  We're fickle. We're Doctor Who fans, of course
• 1:40:22
  we are. Right?
• 1:40:24
  So my first story though. Rod, we're.
• 1:40:27
  Two hours in? You bet.
• 1:40:28
  I think it's quick. I will.
• 1:40:29
  Try and talk quickly Joe. I think you've already shown me
• 1:40:33
  a card on this one, but I am going to champion the
• 1:40:35
  Sensorites. Joe's face, which I've just
• 1:40:40
  seen, I think I know which way he might be going.
• 1:40:43
  Bold move. May I say I?
• 1:40:44
  Enjoy the Sensorites. I don't know why it's got such a
• 1:40:47
  reputation of being plodding, but I really enjoy it.
• 1:40:51
  I think it maintains its sex episodes by kind of regularly
• 1:40:54
  morphing its tone and approach. And it's not like Keys and
• 1:40:58
  Mariners. So we've got completely
• 1:40:59
  different story every 25 minutes.
• 1:41:01
  It's a bit more like a Bob Baker and Dave Martin story that we
• 1:41:04
  kind of regularly change location and emphasis to keep
• 1:41:07
  the story fresh. So the first two episodes we're
• 1:41:10
  on that kind of Moody spaceship and we've got all the paranoia.
• 1:41:13
  We've got the sense of unease, both due to John's behaviour but
• 1:41:17
  also the Sensorites. Then we go down to the sense
• 1:41:20
  sphere and we've got the threat coming from the city
• 1:41:22
  administrator. And one of the things I really
• 1:41:26
  like in this because it does the kind of what you groan when
• 1:41:29
  you're first watching it in episode 3, when they drink the
• 1:41:33
  the poisoned water. And we have a long, very obvious
• 1:41:36
  discussion about the different sources of where the water comes
• 1:41:39
  from just before Ian collapses. It's very worries of the deep
• 1:41:43
  when we point out the hexachromite gas in episode one,
• 1:41:46
  and you think, OK, that's coming back in episode 4.
• 1:41:48
  And surprise, surprise, it does. But at least here, that poison
• 1:41:51
  water gets addressed immediately at the beginning of episode 4,
• 1:41:55
  so we don't have to hang around for the rather corny resolution.
• 1:42:00
  But the city administrator, then we got his plots and his threat
• 1:42:04
  changes constantly. So we start with him just
• 1:42:06
  wanting to to disintegrate the TARDIS crew.
• 1:42:09
  Then he poses the second elbow, which is not as corny as it
• 1:42:13
  seems because they make very clear that the Elders don't mix
• 1:42:16
  with the kind of plebs, so they're not very well known to
• 1:42:20
  them. So he can get away with tricking
• 1:42:23
  a few of them. Then obviously he tries to
• 1:42:27
  prevent Ian getting the antidote.
• 1:42:29
  Then he tries to frame the doctor for murder.
• 1:42:31
  Then he sabotages the plan, the map and the weapons, the doctors
• 1:42:34
  taking on the hunt, the aqueduct.
• 1:42:36
  So his plot, his plot is constantly changing.
• 1:42:38
  He's desperately, yes, it's a little bit Perils of Pauline.
• 1:42:42
  He's constantly changing his plot to get them.
• 1:42:44
  But do you know what? It just keeps it quite fresh.
• 1:42:47
  It's moving along constantly. It's doing different things.
• 1:42:50
  And then we get to that quite left hand turn in Part 6, where
• 1:42:54
  we suddenly get to the the very British Earth Party, who are the
• 1:42:58
  actual ones poisoning the water. And again, that's a bit of a
• 1:43:01
  shift. So I think it keeps the plot
• 1:43:04
  moving along at a rapid pace. There's always something new
• 1:43:07
  going on. So I like that point.
• 1:43:09
  You think? This moves along at a rapid
• 1:43:11
  pace, I think. This OK rapid maybe maybe I'm
• 1:43:14
  over egging it with the word rapid, but I think it moves
• 1:43:17
  along at A at a good pace. OK second reason is the
• 1:43:23
  sensorites. I think the sensorites look
• 1:43:25
  really good. Obviously I didn't see them at
• 1:43:28
  the time, but when I was very young I got the 1st doctor
• 1:43:31
  annual and I had the sensorites on the front cover and for some
• 1:43:35
  reason they really freaked me out.
• 1:43:37
  I found them really quite odd and disturbing.
• 1:43:39
  I think they're the fact they're all quite short and it's only
• 1:43:42
  Susan of kind of the same height and everyone else towers above
• 1:43:45
  them is interesting. They're idiosyncratic.
• 1:43:48
  They've got different characters.
• 1:43:50
  They're afraid of dark noise. So they're they're a bit timid.
• 1:43:53
  I think there's lots of thought has gone into the sense rights
• 1:43:56
  to develop them not as the new dialect, but certainly an
• 1:43:59
  interesting alien. Oh, and then finally we've got
• 1:44:03
  looks to the past and the future.
• 1:44:05
  So we start with that lovely look of how far the Tard's team
• 1:44:07
  have come. We get lots of nods to our
• 1:44:11
  unseen adventures. So I love that bit in the first
• 1:44:13
  scene where they talk about the encounter at the Henry the
• 1:44:15
  Eighth's court where he said the he threw a parson's nose at the
• 1:44:19
  doctor. That's great.
• 1:44:22
  Susan. Talks about her world, which is
• 1:44:24
  a little about odd singers. The Doctor was talking about we
• 1:44:26
  humans earlier on, but let's just go with it.
• 1:44:29
  It's Doctor Who, it morphs and there's lots of, there's lots of
• 1:44:33
  indications that Susan is starting to grow up and wants to
• 1:44:35
  settle down, which I think is great foreshadowing for what's
• 1:44:38
  to come. So yeah, I think this holds
• 1:44:40
  together far more and deserves a much better reputation.
• 1:44:43
  So I am putting it through. Should we go to the comments and
• 1:44:49
  everyone can tell me how completely wrong I am?
• 1:44:52
  Thank goodness James H says some brave choices were made for
• 1:44:56
  episodes two to six after an incredible episode one.
• 1:44:59
  And the Doctor voluntarily helps another race.
• 1:45:01
  So this is the start of Doctor Who as we know it.
• 1:45:04
  Just a shame the plot is a confused mess.
• 1:45:06
  But as always, full marks for the sets.
• 1:45:08
  Keep it. Just Andy Parkinson says.
• 1:45:11
  A great idea in theory, but perhaps a couple of episodes too
• 1:45:14
  long. It's great to see Susan getting
• 1:45:16
  some development, but it doesn't quite fulfil the promise of its
• 1:45:19
  opening episodes. Not bad, just not great.
• 1:45:23
  Jason Thompson. A nice little story with what
• 1:45:25
  turned out to be a sadly rare thing in Doctor Who.
• 1:45:28
  An alien culture where some are nice and some are hostile.
• 1:45:32
  Susan finally gets some decent stuff to do.
• 1:45:34
  It's a little slow in paces, but a perfectly decent story.
• 1:45:38
  However, line fluffs abound. Jack.
• 1:45:40
  Coyer says like all difficult second albums, Doctor Who must
• 1:45:43
  come up with an alien race that isn't the Daleks.
• 1:45:46
  This is a decent attempt, but not surprising that we've rarely
• 1:45:49
  returned to them. Susan gets given some
• 1:45:51
  interesting material that sees her at the most alien and
• 1:45:54
  interesting. Some of the best interactions
• 1:45:56
  between Hartnell and Carol Anne Ford.
• 1:45:58
  You can feel their affection through the characters.
• 1:46:01
  Big Orange Michael The trope of the crew not being able to leave
• 1:46:04
  is starting to wear thin here. The story isn't terrible, it's
• 1:46:07
  just not great. The shot where the crew Ah yes,
• 1:46:11
  the shot where the crew exits the TARDIS to the ship is
• 1:46:13
  memorable and something new. Who should try?
• 1:46:16
  Why they don't is baffling, but the biggest frustration is we
• 1:46:19
  spend 5 and a three quarter episodes at a rather deliberate
• 1:46:22
  pace. Deliberate rod.
• 1:46:25
  And then the central conflict is wrapped up off screen with a few
• 1:46:28
  lines of dialogue. Michael Storm says another
• 1:46:31
  classic Joe. An atmospheric set of opening
• 1:46:34
  episodes. An intriguing political story of
• 1:46:36
  colonisation and xenophobia running throughout the rest.
• 1:46:40
  The sense writer are a well thought out race and we get a
• 1:46:42
  sense of their wider world. We talks of family groups, caste
• 1:46:46
  systems and the sense fear having different regions.
• 1:46:49
  Susan is finally given material to reflect her alien origin and
• 1:46:52
  becomes a strong protagonist, showing how poorly the
• 1:46:55
  characters have been served by most of the other scripts.
• 1:46:59
  Daniel Rawnsley, a passionate anti war please starring the
• 1:47:02
  cousins of the Ood. There's probably 2 episodes too
• 1:47:05
  long but also has the greatest description of Doctor.
• 1:47:07
  Whoever said by Hartnell of course.
• 1:47:10
  And a nice stretch towards the end where it turns Apocalypse
• 1:47:12
  now. Keep it.
• 1:47:14
  David Gillespie Pratis I love an underdog and whilst I don't love
• 1:47:17
  the sense right, there's a lot to admire.
• 1:47:19
  An attempt to show an alien society the monsters are
• 1:47:22
  anything but and Peter R Newman delivers a thoughtful script.
• 1:47:26
  A bit too long, but not deserving of the hate.
• 1:47:29
  Daniel Knight better than its reputation, and the design is
• 1:47:32
  thoughtful and imaginative. JNT detractors note that the
• 1:47:35
  baddie sensor art is effectively played by Peter Glaze from
• 1:47:37
  Crackerjack through. Crackerjack.
• 1:47:40
  Comedy actors actually can make good villains.
• 1:47:44
  John Bencilia says not bad. Some creepy moments in episode
• 1:47:47
  one, unusual looking aliens. But there are points when it
• 1:47:50
  feels like the story is treading water, which with those clod
• 1:47:53
  hoppers, the sensorites would probably achieve with ease.
• 1:47:56
  What were they? Thinking Darren lit Randall's
• 1:47:59
  this feels old fashioned but not in a fun way.
• 1:48:01
  Episode one is so stilted and clunky.
• 1:48:03
  Thanks for the cast relaxing Part 2.
• 1:48:05
  I don't mind the lighter. Sorry.
• 1:48:07
  I don't mind the later episodes. Hartner is on good form, but
• 1:48:10
  it's a relief when it comes to a close.
• 1:48:13
  No for any says the first two episodes are great, it just
• 1:48:15
  slows down hugely when on the sense.
• 1:48:17
  Fair. I love the city administrators
• 1:48:19
  plan of changing a sash, but the kids at home were screaming at
• 1:48:22
  their TV's. Unfairly maligned LSJ succinctly
• 1:48:26
  says shit they can't even tell each other apart.
• 1:48:29
  Absolute shit. And yet I like it, Gary.
• 1:48:33
  Russell Gary Russell says clever world building and smart
• 1:48:37
  structure. Creepy as hell at the start.
• 1:48:41
  It's worth knowing that Gary Russell says something very
• 1:48:43
  positive there about the sensor rights and slams Marco Polo
• 1:48:46
  later in the episode. Interesting man.
• 1:48:49
  Quill pen very poor, although superb.
• 1:48:51
  Episode one and three and four are good over long and even four
• 1:48:55
  parts might be a scratch. Not a numbers in that comment
• 1:48:58
  there are Philip. Nichols doesn't acquire taste.
• 1:49:01
  And finally, Paul Smye succinctly says dull and very
• 1:49:06
  boring. So, Gareth, yay or nay?
• 1:49:09
  Have I won you over to the glorious Sensorites?
• 1:49:12
  I'm. Afraid it's a nay from me.
• 1:49:13
  Oh my God, now I, I, I went in with an open mind to this and it
• 1:49:23
  lost me on the 1st 2 episodes because I really didn't give a
• 1:49:25
  damn about the human characters in it.
• 1:49:28
  They, they, they were just one-dimensional even when they
• 1:49:30
  popped back in in later episodes on the sense for you.
• 1:49:32
  Oh, oh, it's them. Oh, Oh no, they've gone again.
• 1:49:35
  All right. Can't remember who they were.
• 1:49:36
  They're very important. It's just far too.
• 1:49:40
  I think there, there is probably a good four part story in here.
• 1:49:43
  I think 6 parts is really overstretching it.
• 1:49:46
  There is roundabout in episode 3, like 12 minutes of the
• 1:49:50
  regulars talking about the situation and then the talking
• 1:49:52
  to the sense rights about the situation, kind of repeating
• 1:49:55
  what they've already gone over. And yeah, I must admit I've
• 1:49:59
  found the sensorites themselves extremely irritating because of
• 1:50:03
  the the lack of expression. You know, if you can't see mouth
• 1:50:08
  and eyes and you don't get a good performance, you know, it's
• 1:50:11
  all I've got going. I am the city.
• 1:50:13
  Administrator, I will make sure this is what we do and this is
• 1:50:15
  how we do it. They can tell us from our own
• 1:50:17
  colours. And but it doesn't give you much
• 1:50:20
  more than that in terms of a setup.
• 1:50:21
  You know when they get that poor chap later on he goes.
• 1:50:24
  We have your family group. What is his family group?
• 1:50:28
  What does that consist of? I want to know more.
• 1:50:29
  You're not giving me that. Now all we've got.
• 1:50:31
  Is we don't. Care about those people, all
• 1:50:33
  we've. Got is a bunch of what is
• 1:50:34
  predominantly male voiced aliens running around this place.
• 1:50:38
  Oh my dear, I didn't know that the second older would be so
• 1:50:41
  bad. Oh, you don't care.
• 1:50:42
  It's 12 minutes of that. I don't I don't need that now We
• 1:50:45
  yes, we he he's done something and yes you're absolutely right.
• 1:50:48
  The actual meat of it really is the poisoned water, which we get
• 1:50:54
  done away very quickly in one episode, which when you think of
• 1:50:57
  other Doctor Who stories, that level of exploration would
• 1:51:00
  probably sustain a four part story alone in getting to the
• 1:51:03
  bottom of what is. And when it becomes humans,
• 1:51:05
  you're like, oh, that's quite interesting.
• 1:51:07
  Oh, no, we're finished now. Oh, wow.
• 1:51:10
  We seem to have gone, oh, up a very long hill with a very short
• 1:51:14
  decline afterwards. Yeah.
• 1:51:16
  It's it's not great. It it, it needed a rethink, I
• 1:51:20
  think to for it to be forget. It's a no from me, dear.
• 1:51:24
  Toby, please bring some sanity back and save the Save our
• 1:51:28
  Sensorites. There's so much to love about
• 1:51:32
  the Sensorites, and I feel sorry for the Sensorites because it
• 1:51:34
  was always the the the maligned one of season one.
• 1:51:37
  Nobody really knew that much about the Sensorites, which was
• 1:51:40
  odd because it existed, but it always existed as a kind of one
• 1:51:44
  that was almost in our peripheral vision.
• 1:51:46
  Nobody knew anything about Peter Newman.
• 1:51:49
  Nobody that wasn't Mervyn Pinfield wasn't around to
• 1:51:52
  interview, so nobody really remembered it.
• 1:51:56
  You could probably try and talk to Ray Cusick about it, but
• 1:51:58
  you'd probably, you know, he wasn't going to enthuse he was
• 1:52:01
  he, even though you know, he's what he's done some brilliant
• 1:52:04
  work. You know that what what he does
• 1:52:05
  very cleverly when he gets to the scent Spears, he says let's
• 1:52:08
  have no sharp angles. Let's make it all round.
• 1:52:11
  So everybody's thinking about it and making it different.
• 1:52:13
  And it was always existed in a slightly different plane because
• 1:52:16
  it's the first indication that you can have monsters, aliens
• 1:52:20
  that are benign. And it's not all about, oh,
• 1:52:22
  let's just go into space and everything different from us is
• 1:52:25
  awful, which is a very important mission statement for Doctor Who
• 1:52:29
  to say, you know, don't judge by apprentices.
• 1:52:32
  And they're and they're quite indistinct as well as sensor as
• 1:52:35
  you, those little beady eyes that they have.
• 1:52:37
  And I, even though the masks are very good, you, you, you kind of
• 1:52:40
  can't, especially when you're watching on, on sort of, you
• 1:52:43
  know, pre DVD quality, You know, the, the you could never quite
• 1:52:48
  see them is clearly apart from those little black eyes and the
• 1:52:52
  fact that they're actually rather sensitive and, and like
• 1:52:56
  little sort of, you know, moles played by old men was, was, was
• 1:53:00
  rather charming. And, and, and, and I think those
• 1:53:04
  first two episodes, interestingly, Gareth, you
• 1:53:05
  didn't like the first two episodes.
• 1:53:07
  For me, I think the first episodes, first two episodes are
• 1:53:11
  I, I think they, the, the their more languid pace actually adds
• 1:53:15
  to the atmosphere. It's quite spooky and the, the,
• 1:53:18
  the sensorites of that first episode and noise is off.
• 1:53:20
  And I remember UK gold doing a really good trailer for it where
• 1:53:23
  it seemed like, you know, these things coming.
• 1:53:25
  What the hell are they? Oh, it's Santa Claus wearing a
• 1:53:28
  sock. And, and and I mean the
• 1:53:32
  production is exemplified by the fact that the end of episode
• 1:53:35
  one, one hand goes on the window, another hand goes on the
• 1:53:38
  window and then Doctor Snuggles head sort of comes up.
• 1:53:43
  Papa Smurf sort of comes up and goes.
• 1:53:46
  But. Nonetheless, I still think it's
• 1:53:47
  quite creepy because of the way he lays that and then the
• 1:53:50
  following week it's just a bloke.
• 1:53:53
  I've. Come to do your windows mate
• 1:53:56
  doesn't even wave. He's just stood there.
• 1:54:00
  But but you know, while you're there, you have I think a
• 1:54:02
  terrific performance from Stephen Dartnell as as John, you
• 1:54:07
  know, with his white hair and the fact that he has that that
• 1:54:10
  kind of broken quality about him, contrasting with Lauren
• 1:54:14
  Cassetta's Captain Maitland, who's clearly gone into space
• 1:54:17
  because nobody at home will talk to him because he's so fucking
• 1:54:20
  boring. Well.
• 1:54:22
  We have come into space because I'm a terrible actor and I'm not
• 1:54:26
  allowed anywhere else. But but what you know, then you
• 1:54:31
  get to the sense of it. It's really interestingly
• 1:54:34
  rendered. There's that beautiful thing of
• 1:54:37
  the designer going, well, there's a danger if you cast all
• 1:54:40
  these. Masks.
• 1:54:42
  From Latex, they'll everyone will look the same and that
• 1:54:44
  would be very unrealistic. So let's give them all different
• 1:54:47
  facial hair and beards. Except for the fact that it's
• 1:54:50
  because quite often later with Doctor, all the aliens that were
• 1:54:53
  saying we go, well, you've just got the mask from the same
• 1:54:54
  template. So you know, well done for doing
• 1:54:57
  that in the one story where it's really important that they all
• 1:55:00
  look the fucking same. Although, you know, I would I
• 1:55:05
  would also say that if you are attempting to introduce some
• 1:55:08
  subtlety into alien species, saying they all look the same is
• 1:55:11
  probably not a good way of going about it.
• 1:55:14
  But then you have the the the baddies are actually human
• 1:55:19
  beings still carrying on fighting a war that is long
• 1:55:22
  over. What a brilliant idea.
• 1:55:24
  The fact that the malignancy has actually been introduced by us
• 1:55:27
  and in the form of the mighty John Bailey, who does broken
• 1:55:31
  dignity like no other. And this sort of, this poor sort
• 1:55:34
  of cross between sort of Penn, Ben Gunn and Colonel Blimp
• 1:55:38
  trying to, you know, keep, keep running.
• 1:55:40
  The fact that he still calls these, these two bedraggled
• 1:55:42
  cohorts one and #2 you know, and all of this.
• 1:55:45
  I think that is a beautiful idea, wonderfully rendered.
• 1:55:49
  And I think it's a, it's a, it's an important part of Doctor
• 1:55:52
  Who's development. It's spooky.
• 1:55:53
  It's atmospheric. Caroline Ford, who I fear is
• 1:55:56
  going to get lots and lots of sticks tonight, is magnificent
• 1:55:59
  in those first two episodes, being all creepy as she communes
• 1:56:02
  telepathically with the Sensorites.
• 1:56:04
  There's so much to recommend it, so much that makes it anomalous
• 1:56:08
  and interesting and fascinating, but it's shit.
• 1:56:14
  I. Figured that's where you were
• 1:56:15
  going with this. I.
• 1:56:17
  I love Doctor Who and I, and I love all sorts of Doctor Who and
• 1:56:20
  I love Doctor Who's underdogs. I like Doctor Who strength.
• 1:56:23
  Doctor Who would not be as interesting without the
• 1:56:26
  Sensorites as part of its great mosaic of development.
• 1:56:29
  But the Sensorites itself is not very interesting.
• 1:56:33
  It's, it's, it's, it's an, it's, it's a, it's a fascinating,
• 1:56:38
  instructive example of what Doctor Who could have been like.
• 1:56:43
  This is what it's like in space children.
• 1:56:45
  It's, you know, it's very, it's, it's, it's like having a story
• 1:56:50
  explained to you by John from the Tomorrow people.
• 1:56:53
  It's very, it's very sort of worthy and well-intentioned,
• 1:56:59
  slightly patronizing, very, very simplistic.
• 1:57:03
  I had never thought of that, says the Oh, and the other thing
• 1:57:06
  is, yeah, we're trying to make our we're trying to make our
• 1:57:08
  aliens interesting. So we will call them first
• 1:57:11
  sense, right? Second sense, right.
• 1:57:13
  Third sense, right. He's the city administrator.
• 1:57:15
  Still call him third sense, right.
• 1:57:16
  OK. Fourth sense, right.
• 1:57:18
  First elder and 2nd elder. But then first and second sense,
• 1:57:20
  right, disappear halfway through the story.
• 1:57:22
  So the credits credit first, third, so it goes and you go,
• 1:57:27
  what? I don't even, so you're not even
• 1:57:30
  in, you're not even that interested in your characters
• 1:57:33
  that we, we can even discern who they are from the credits
• 1:57:36
  because the first sensor, the most important sensor right now
• 1:57:39
  is called third, even though he's called city administrator.
• 1:57:42
  It's so you said there was a lot of numbers in somebody's,
• 1:57:45
  there's a lot of numbers in the nomenclature of the sensor.
• 1:57:48
  You could at least, I mean, they could at least be called Vartex
• 1:57:52
  or Bing Bong. You know, at least it's more
• 1:57:54
  interesting and you know, they're all they all struggle
• 1:58:00
  from behind those masks with the one of the great Doctor Who
• 1:58:03
  fluffs. I I heard them over talk it.
• 1:58:06
  Oh, fuck, you know, and so with the best will in the world, and
• 1:58:11
  it's an important story for me because Peter R Newman was such
• 1:58:15
  a mysterious character. We set off to do something
• 1:58:17
  slightly different with the with the documentary because we've
• 1:58:21
  got everybody on the commentary. So we thought we'd rather repeat
• 1:58:23
  all that on the making of let's let's, let's try and do
• 1:58:26
  something different with the commentary.
• 1:58:28
  And, and, and, and that opened up all sorts of new avenues to
• 1:58:31
  to how we looked at doing Doctor Who documentaries and things
• 1:58:33
  like that. But it's it's it's.
• 1:58:37
  It's. It's not very good, but I love,
• 1:58:40
  I love it, bless it, but it's not very good.
• 1:58:43
  So it's it's not going through Joe, but have your say anyway.
• 1:58:47
  Well, I was. Listening to a lot of words
• 1:58:49
  there and I, I heard you say no, no, I mean that in a
• 1:58:53
  complimentary way, of course I do.
• 1:58:55
  But I did hear the words sort of worthy, talky and over
• 1:59:00
  explanatory and you also. Heard shit a few times as well,
• 1:59:03
  that's why. This.
• 1:59:04
  This for me feels like a 1930s radio serial rather than a 1960s
• 1:59:10
  adventure serial. And that's half the problem.
• 1:59:13
  I recently watched an episode of Star Trek Voyager for untitled
• 1:59:16
  Star Trek Project called Course Oblivion, where the motley crew
• 1:59:20
  of Star Trek Voyager realized that they are in fact not the
• 1:59:22
  crew of Star Trek Voyager, but a load of people made out of
• 1:59:25
  living Quicksilver. And throughout the episode they
• 1:59:27
  all start to melt in hideous ways.
• 1:59:29
  They're covered in awful latex, and by the end of the episode,
• 1:59:33
  the point of the episode where they all have to emote a lot and
• 1:59:36
  make us feel for their impending demise, all their bloody mouths
• 1:59:40
  are taped shut and nobody can emote at all.
• 1:59:43
  And that's exactly the problem with the sensor rights as well,
• 1:59:45
  is how can these people act with no bloody mouths?
• 1:59:49
  I mean, they're taped shut, so I don't think anyone's really
• 1:59:52
  given a performance. They're struggling so much
• 1:59:54
  inside those masks. I don't get a sense of genuine
• 1:59:58
  character beyond the very obvious character beast the
• 2:00:01
  scripts giving them. In this story.
• 2:00:03
  So those middle those middle episodes are just interminable
• 2:00:07
  to endure. And Fatal Error cussing
• 2:00:10
  Jacqueline Hill out of the story for two episodes.
• 2:00:12
  I know she wanted a holiday and she comes back nice and tanned.
• 2:00:16
  But, you know, I did lose interest in that time.
• 2:00:19
  Yeah. I just, I don't think there's
• 2:00:21
  much good about this. So I think actually the the
• 2:00:23
  biggest production mistakes occur in the first two episodes.
• 2:00:26
  There's a lot of lime fluffs. There's a lot of the camera just
• 2:00:30
  sort of hanging around when it clearly shouldn't be there, it
• 2:00:32
  seems, where they're going through the corridors and they
• 2:00:34
  go so slowly. And I was like, Rich, surely not
• 2:00:40
  even in 6364, whenever this went out, was this an acceptable pace
• 2:00:44
  for television. So, so boring.
• 2:00:47
  There's things I like. I love that shot coming out of
• 2:00:49
  the TARDIS and I'm baffled that it was never ever done again.
• 2:00:53
  I love the cliffhanger where the close up on William Hartle's
• 2:00:56
  face when he is that raw and his bubbly eyes are coming out of
• 2:01:00
  the darkness. I like the montage when he's
• 2:01:02
  doing all the bits with the test tubes so he's.
• 2:01:04
  Finding. The Cure There's, there's
• 2:01:06
  moments in this that you're going to find and it's these
• 2:01:09
  actors. So of course there's moments,
• 2:01:11
  but it's so fucking tedious. Been it.
• 2:01:15
  So the. Lighting in that cliffhanger is
• 2:01:17
  beautiful. The lighting in that cliffhanger
• 2:01:19
  is really good. But you know the reason they
• 2:01:21
  walk around the sets slowly is they were famously directed to
• 2:01:24
  because the sets were so small, they say.
• 2:01:28
  If you. If you if you investigate the
• 2:01:30
  spaceship at speed, you're going to run out of spaceship.
• 2:01:35
  Go a bit slow, please. Actually, on this very subject
• 2:01:38
  of William Hart or doing he does the best cliffhanger ending
• 2:01:41
  reactions. Doesn't he like throughout this
• 2:01:43
  entire run? What's the one where he's doing
• 2:01:45
  this? He's at the.
• 2:01:47
  Gunfighters when he thinks he's. He's going to be.
• 2:01:50
  Lynched at the end of the episode, Mr. Regret's going to
• 2:01:52
  swing in his place. No one can hold a gaze like him.
• 2:01:55
  He's great. So who would have thought
• 2:01:57
  Thought the first four stories, three are in the bend.
• 2:02:01
  We've. Lost the Reign of Terror, the
• 2:02:02
  Keys and Murrows and the Sensorites we've.
• 2:02:05
  Left all the good stuff for the second-half, don't worry.
• 2:02:07
  Clearly, Gareth, pick your second story, please.
• 2:02:10
  And you know, let's show some love, please.
• 2:02:12
  Well. As.
• 2:02:14
  We need a loving. I will go back to the past and I
• 2:02:19
  will bring up the Aztecs. So this is a personal favorite
• 2:02:27
  of mine. I actually it was the first
• 2:02:31
  William Hartnell VHS ever bought.
• 2:02:33
  I think it was only the 2nd William Hartnell story I ever
• 2:02:35
  saw. So I was it in Woolworths.
• 2:02:39
  I think it was HMV when they're all doing them at 799 because it
• 2:02:43
  was part of that original batch that they brought out.
• 2:02:45
  But it it's, it's a story that's given me good stead in my life
• 2:02:49
  as well, because I must admit I have applied some of my
• 2:02:53
  knowledge about Aztec civilization from this story.
• 2:02:57
  To my school days. And yes, it's gone down rather
• 2:03:00
  well. So I, I really like this story
• 2:03:03
  and, and the, the key things that I really like about it is,
• 2:03:06
  and we, you mentioned it at the top end of all this, Rod, you
• 2:03:09
  can't change history. Not one line of it.
• 2:03:12
  Pretty much one of those moments at this point now where we're
• 2:03:15
  setting out. What does it mean to visit the
• 2:03:17
  past for us? What does it mean until?
• 2:03:19
  Next week, of course, when we change well.
• 2:03:21
  I'm, I'm going to come to that because at this point in time,
• 2:03:24
  we don't know how long the doctor, I mean, this is a bit of
• 2:03:27
  a retroconning as well, but we don't know how long the doctor's
• 2:03:30
  been away from his own people who have a policy of non
• 2:03:33
  intervention at all. This could arguably be the
• 2:03:36
  closest you could get to that without actually getting
• 2:03:39
  involved. But also from a viewer's point
• 2:03:42
  of view, you know, the history of the Aztecs, or you might be
• 2:03:45
  aware of the history of the Aztecs.
• 2:03:46
  You know, you know it happened and it ended now.
• 2:03:51
  But if? You change that, how are you
• 2:03:53
  going to be invested in the show as a viewer?
• 2:03:56
  You're not. And and so that line plants the
• 2:03:58
  seed in there that you know, we're going to be in a point
• 2:04:01
  that you've you've been in before, but nothing will change
• 2:04:04
  from your perspective. You guys at home don't have to
• 2:04:06
  worry about it. It's what happens to us while
• 2:04:08
  we're here. So it kind of sets a store for
• 2:04:10
  that. And there's no big CGI monster
• 2:04:11
  going to come out and go, oh, messing with time, right.
• 2:04:13
  We're going to have you now. Not nothing like that, you know,
• 2:04:18
  Father's Day, but there, you know this.
• 2:04:22
  But it's it's also played at a very low level with Barbara and
• 2:04:28
  Barbara from a very good place. We know she's a history teacher,
• 2:04:32
  has an interest in this civilization.
• 2:04:33
  She likes her civilization, appreciates her civilization,
• 2:04:36
  and wants to change things. And the minute that she tries to
• 2:04:40
  do that, the chappie jumps off the top of the temple.
• 2:04:46
  It's not one massive moment in terms of earth shattering.
• 2:04:52
  It's not that something happened and everything split asunder.
• 2:04:55
  He did not want that for him because that's not what they do.
• 2:04:59
  And she has to deal with that. And then you've got that, that
• 2:05:03
  wonderful scene with Barbara and the Doctor.
• 2:05:07
  You know you wouldn't be told, you wouldn't be told just right.
• 2:05:10
  And it's almost like he's trying to tell her.
• 2:05:14
  You know, all the viewers here are going to be watching you.
• 2:05:16
  They're going to see what's going off.
• 2:05:17
  You need to realise you can be here, you can look, but you
• 2:05:20
  can't tamper with it too much. You've got to take your toys out
• 2:05:24
  but put them back when you've done with them.
• 2:05:27
  No time you wireminess going on here.
• 2:05:33
  So. There is there is a lot to like
• 2:05:34
  about that because this really sets the stall out, I think
• 2:05:37
  first and foremost and probably sticks in a lot of people's
• 2:05:40
  minds when they think about Doctor Who and the interference
• 2:05:42
  in history. The next thing I want to bring
• 2:05:45
  up is a couple of the relationships in this.
• 2:05:48
  You have the wonderful relationship of Ian and Nixter.
• 2:05:53
  This very much Ian almost being brought in to take over the
• 2:05:59
  army. You know, you've trained for
• 2:06:01
  years. Don't worry about it.
• 2:06:01
  You step to one side, this chappie is going to take over
• 2:06:03
  because he's coming with the high priestess and, you know,
• 2:06:07
  he's one of servants. Yeah.
• 2:06:08
  Yeah, you'll be all right. Yeah, fine.
• 2:06:10
  And. And the way that they play with
• 2:06:11
  that as we go on, you know, the power of his thumbs, the fights
• 2:06:15
  that they have, and even the fact that Extra himself is kind
• 2:06:19
  of tied into the plot because of his grandfather's involvement in
• 2:06:23
  building the temple. So it feels like there's a lot
• 2:06:26
  of plot threads throughout all the characters in this where
• 2:06:28
  it's all kind of wields itself together.
• 2:06:31
  And in terms of relationships, the big one I've got to mention
• 2:06:34
  is, of course, the Doctor and Kameka.
• 2:06:37
  You know, what was it people said when Grace turned on the
• 2:06:41
  scene on the TV movie? Doctor Who doesn't do that.
• 2:06:44
  No, no, but he'll propose to someone within the very first
• 2:06:46
  year. Did no one remember that?
• 2:06:48
  And if Hartnell's expression to camera that sort of look up as
• 2:06:53
  if he's just swallowed a wasp, it is is absolutely mesmerizing.
• 2:06:57
  But then it's how that relationship then turns after
• 2:07:00
  that point because they start talking almost as if he's going
• 2:07:03
  to settle down with her. I can't wait to spend my time
• 2:07:06
  with you, my love, my being either.
• 2:07:09
  No, yes, yes, I'm very much looking forward to it.
• 2:07:11
  Yes. You know, all of that.
• 2:07:13
  They've started to become very comfortable with each other.
• 2:07:16
  Now is is we know that he's planning to get away because
• 2:07:19
  that's what he's made very clear.
• 2:07:21
  But he seems to have gone into a very nice relationship with
• 2:07:24
  Kameka to the point that when he's actually almost telling
• 2:07:28
  her, you know, we are going to go, she says, you know, you'd
• 2:07:30
  whatever you're doing now, you're going to leave me.
• 2:07:33
  And he almost looks heartbroken. And it's ultimately played out
• 2:07:37
  in that final scene in the tomb when they get through.
• 2:07:39
  When is it? Is it a ring he's got from her
• 2:07:42
  that he puts down on the tomb, walks the Taris and then turns
• 2:07:45
  back and just picks it back up and puts it back in his pocket
• 2:07:47
  and goes, you know, he doesn't want to forget that memory of
• 2:07:50
  her. And it's it's it's not a series
• 2:07:53
  of massive scenes altogether, but it's a series of very human
• 2:07:58
  scenes. I suppose the best way, best way
• 2:07:59
  to describe it. I've also got to give some kudos
• 2:08:03
  to Clotoxyl, who I think's a, a villain of Iago like
• 2:08:08
  proportions, but actually isn't when you think about it, because
• 2:08:15
  he's actually right in everything he's doing.
• 2:08:19
  He's absolutely right that these guys shouldn't be here.
• 2:08:23
  They aren't who they say they are.
• 2:08:24
  And him doing what he does, although he feels like the
• 2:08:27
  villain should be the villain, he's actually doing the right
• 2:08:30
  thing, which is wonderful. And I still can't get he's the
• 2:08:34
  hero character. Yeah.
• 2:08:36
  No, it is. It is bit of.
• 2:08:37
  Sacrifice never hurt anybody, no.
• 2:08:40
  No, so so it's absolutely he's and the performance he gives
• 2:08:43
  throughout is one for the vocal cord.
• 2:08:45
  He's got some magnificent in it, I really love that.
• 2:08:48
  But once the high priest will remain in ignorance.
• 2:08:51
  The way the way he plays. With the words in his mouth is
• 2:08:54
  absolutely amazing. So I think that in a nutshell is
• 2:08:57
  for me. I I want to give an honourable
• 2:09:00
  mention to Ortlock and his sort of downfall, if you like, in
• 2:09:04
  trusting Barbara, another repercussion of what's gone off.
• 2:09:07
  So to the rest of my fellow panel members, I would just say
• 2:09:11
  do not prove me false. Brilliant.
• 2:09:16
  Let's just. Go to the comments, Michael
• 2:09:18
  Storm says A stone cold classic, The Doctor's Romance feels far
• 2:09:22
  more natural than any of the RTD era set ups.
• 2:09:25
  And each. And each companion gets a decent
• 2:09:28
  subplot even when confined to pre filmed inserts.
• 2:09:31
  Susan is better characterized here, standing up in defiance to
• 2:09:35
  the Aztec customs that seem like an anathema to her.
• 2:09:38
  Barbara's understandable desire to put right what once went
• 2:09:41
  wrong drives a story as she becomes victim to her own
• 2:09:44
  hubris. Daniel Knight says perfect.
• 2:09:47
  A tragic tale of faith, love and hope.
• 2:09:50
  It's Jacqueline Hill's finest hour.
• 2:09:51
  And Hartnell is brilliant as well, showing an emotional
• 2:09:54
  vulnerability to the Doctor that we won't see again until the
• 2:09:57
  modern series. I'm not sure if that's quite
• 2:09:59
  right. John Bencilia says can someone
• 2:10:02
  force Steven Moffat to sit down and note the whole point of the
• 2:10:05
  Aztecs, which is that you can't rewrite history no matter how
• 2:10:09
  tiny bloody wimey it is. Classic character based
• 2:10:13
  historical drama sumptuously made downer ending the.
• 2:10:17
  Comment of the night Jay Ryno. One Joe, is that your pseudonym,
• 2:10:22
  James? Age a sublime blend of
• 2:10:23
  character, plot and action pieces.
• 2:10:25
  The Doctor's warning to Barbara is interesting.
• 2:10:27
  He just saved Mariners and also the files.
• 2:10:30
  Sumptuous sets and a great look at how we see history when at
• 2:10:33
  the time they saw nothing wrong. Keep.
• 2:10:36
  Sy. Heart says my high point.
• 2:10:38
  I wouldn't change one line or see what you did there.
• 2:10:41
  I would like to. Say he came on and did my
• 2:10:42
  commentary on the Aztecs and had so little trivia of that by the
• 2:10:47
  last episode he was calling them the Mexico people from Peru.
• 2:10:51
  Don't. Listen to a word he's got to
• 2:10:52
  say, Gary Russell says. A work of genius.
• 2:10:56
  LS Jay says forget Terry Nation keep bringing lacrosse back here
• 2:11:00
  he is with the second best story of the season.
• 2:11:02
  An amazing story for Barbara, but Kamika and the Doctor steal
• 2:11:06
  the show. It's a.
• 2:11:07
  Very quick side note, so I know I keep doing this, I just have
• 2:11:10
  to wonder how bad that script for the massacre possibly was
• 2:11:14
  because the two scripts he delivers that make it to the
• 2:11:16
  screen are sublime. So I've I've never seen it
• 2:11:19
  already or though even if it exists, but I can't imagine it
• 2:11:23
  was bad. Dave Rennie says wow,
• 2:11:26
  tremendous. John Ringum created a superb
• 2:11:28
  villain. Jacqueline Hill excels and the
• 2:11:30
  start of the Can we change history debate begins that
• 2:11:33
  rumbles to this day. Darren.
• 2:11:35
  Lit Randall says it shows me that historicals weren't a waste
• 2:11:38
  of time. Great character work for the
• 2:11:40
  regulars. John Crockett's direction is
• 2:11:41
  strong. A lovely score from Richard
• 2:11:43
  Rodney Bennett. Perfect.
• 2:11:45
  Jason Thompson, Does he always write a lot of tweets?
• 2:11:48
  It's all right. Wonderful.
• 2:11:51
  The tall, The force for Jacqueline Hill, John Ringham.
• 2:11:53
  She's the scenery superbly, but Keith Pyatt as Altlock is
• 2:11:56
  superb. Also, I love when the Doctor
• 2:11:58
  rips into Barbara for her foolishness, not just because
• 2:12:01
  Hartnell plays anger so well, but for showing how the Doctor
• 2:12:04
  has softened towards his companions.
• 2:12:06
  When she breaks down crying, he immediately apologizes and goes
• 2:12:09
  to come for her. A lovely scene, Jack.
• 2:12:11
  Coyer said This is why Barbara is one of everyone's favorite
• 2:12:14
  companions. A dominating performance by
• 2:12:16
  Jacqueline Hill and her clashes with Hartnell are some of the
• 2:12:19
  best in the show. They're not just shouting at
• 2:12:21
  each other, they're getting their perspectives across, which
• 2:12:24
  works well towards the shows educate and entertain mantra.
• 2:12:27
  Four parties the optimum story length for something like this.
• 2:12:30
  It gets the point and doesn't outstay it's welcome.
• 2:12:33
  Big Orange Michael picked to represent this era for the 50th
• 2:12:36
  and it's easy to see why. A superb story with many great
• 2:12:40
  performances. My favorite.
• 2:12:41
  Hartnell, David. Gillespie Pratt said Jacqueline
• 2:12:44
  Hill steals the show again, and with stiff competition from some
• 2:12:47
  of the great guest cast, Barbara becomes a God.
• 2:12:50
  Ian gets to wrestle and the Doctor gets hitched.
• 2:12:53
  Susan gets a holiday. Sterling stuff.
• 2:12:55
  Philip. Philip.
• 2:12:56
  Nichols love this despite the camera crash.
• 2:12:59
  When's that? I can't think of that.
• 2:13:03
  Doctor Romax end end of episode one when it comes in on to soxel
• 2:13:07
  it it. Whacks.
• 2:13:10
  It's either at the end of episode one of the reprisers of
• 2:13:12
  episode 2, when it, when it, when he does that, you know this
• 2:13:16
  is not your tax set or no. I must be enjoying it so much I
• 2:13:19
  didn't notice to. His credit?
• 2:13:21
  He's also having to wait for about 15 seconds and he doesn't
• 2:13:23
  look at the camera once. Doctor romance with Kamaka is
• 2:13:26
  fab, Paul. Smythe says good historical
• 2:13:29
  Jacqueline Hill is magnificent to Sparbra, heartless, superb,
• 2:13:32
  especially in the coffee scene and.
• 2:13:34
  Finally, Andy Parkinson. I know a lot of people love
• 2:13:36
  this, but it leaves me cold. I can't remember the last time I
• 2:13:39
  watched it and I'm in no hurry to revisit it.
• 2:13:42
  Interesting first word dissent, Toby.
• 2:13:45
  How do you feel about the Aztecs I.
• 2:13:48
  Feel I may have just been wrong about about that camera crash as
• 2:13:51
  well. I thought that and then as soon
• 2:13:52
  as I said, I thought, I'm not sure that's true.
• 2:13:54
  So anyway, who cares? It's now listen, it's
• 2:13:59
  interesting, isn't it? Because I think all of the
• 2:14:03
  things we love about Doctor Who and all of the holes we might
• 2:14:08
  pick in it, I think time is kinder to the historicals
• 2:14:12
  because obviously nothing dates more like the future and you're
• 2:14:16
  on safer ground with something that is not postulated.
• 2:14:19
  You know, there can be a certain naivety to a depiction of an
• 2:14:23
  alien world or a future. Whereas there's a solid
• 2:14:26
  grounding in historical Doctor. And I think John Lucarotti is,
• 2:14:32
  he wrote a great chapter in the Doctor Who File where he talked
• 2:14:35
  about, you know, his fascination with the clash of the great
• 2:14:38
  sophistication and cultural richness of the Aztec
• 2:14:41
  civilization. And there's and, you know, and
• 2:14:44
  their great grasp of certain concepts, like, you know, they
• 2:14:47
  could predict when an eclipse would happen, and yet they
• 2:14:50
  haven't invented the wheels. And So what he's done is he's
• 2:14:53
  taken Doctor Who. He's taken this idea of going
• 2:14:56
  back in time and gone. How can I make the very
• 2:14:58
  civilization that I'm depicting, how can I create adventure out
• 2:15:05
  of that? But also not just adventure,
• 2:15:07
  character, moral dilemma. And what's fascinating about
• 2:15:12
  Doctor of this period is that it's not a safe show.
• 2:15:15
  It is not a clean show. That, again, the story I
• 2:15:19
  celebrated first ends with the characters running to the TARDIS
• 2:15:22
  as grimy as we've ever seen them.
• 2:15:24
  This ends up with them escaping from a situation where the main
• 2:15:28
  villain, who, as you say, was right all along, succeeds the
• 2:15:32
  the best that the most benign character in it.
• 2:15:36
  They've destroyed his face and he's had to go out to the
• 2:15:40
  wilderness to live his life a broken man his entire life as he
• 2:15:44
  understood it, you know, completely shattered.
• 2:15:47
  Now, again, the wonderful lesson of that is from something so
• 2:15:51
  destructive. They actually go, well, we saved
• 2:15:53
  this guy because he won't get slaughtered when Cortez comes
• 2:15:56
  along and and and kills them all for, for, for, for, you know,
• 2:16:00
  for, you know, the historical reasons that that all have
• 2:16:04
  because he's because he's not part of that civilization.
• 2:16:06
  And so he's presumably living as a a hermit.
• 2:16:09
  So he's broken and had his life destroyed, but in a in a way
• 2:16:13
  received a strange redemption, But it's not a clean redemption.
• 2:16:16
  The the, the and actually he didn't need to be redeemed
• 2:16:20
  because he was nice, but it's so there's actually that that very
• 2:16:23
  interesting element of that Gareth very clever said that we
• 2:16:27
  with our Great Western ideals come in and go hang on guys,
• 2:16:32
  we're going to show you what's best.
• 2:16:33
  And the guy goes, yeah, I don't want that.
• 2:16:35
  I want to I, my, my culture is that I, I will have a great
• 2:16:39
  honour for being sacrificed. So to screw you, London woman,
• 2:16:44
  London history teacher with your 20th century mores.
• 2:16:47
  You know, it's a lesson, it's a very clever and subtle lesson
• 2:16:50
  about going, you know, you actually think about how that
• 2:16:54
  makes you think about your own morals that are that don't
• 2:17:00
  happen in a vacuum. They are conditioned by what
• 2:17:02
  happens around you. And if you stick to your morals
• 2:17:05
  without questioning them and looking at them when you have
• 2:17:09
  different stimuli, then you become intransigent and
• 2:17:14
  dangerous. And it's, and it's very clever
• 2:17:17
  and very, very subtle that this beautiful character work that
• 2:17:21
  goes on and the doctrine can make have this lovely love
• 2:17:25
  story. But I love the bit where Margot
• 2:17:27
  van der Burt at the end when they depart, you know, she, she
• 2:17:30
  knows she's helping him escape and ruin her life.
• 2:17:33
  Her life is being ruined as well.
• 2:17:34
  And she just says very bluntly and beautifully, think of me,
• 2:17:37
  you know? And it's so a decent person
• 2:17:41
  doing the right thing. That is the thing that she
• 2:17:44
  doesn't want to do, but she knows.
• 2:17:45
  So it's not a clean ending either.
• 2:17:48
  It's really sad. It's really heartbreaking.
• 2:17:50
  It's really beautifully done. It's intelligent, sophisticated
• 2:17:54
  writing. It makes it a fool of anybody
• 2:17:59
  that says later on, oh, the TARDIS is so overcrowded.
• 2:18:02
  I don't know how to write for all of these characters.
• 2:18:04
  Luca Rati goes, right. What are the strengths of each
• 2:18:07
  of these characters? I will put a storyline around
• 2:18:10
  each of them. That means that everybody gets a
• 2:18:13
  decent slice of the action. Everybody's contribution
• 2:18:16
  enlightens the plot, does the enlightens the historical
• 2:18:20
  wreathy and element to the storytelling about teaching us
• 2:18:24
  about the civilization. That becomes the plot.
• 2:18:26
  That becomes essential to the story.
• 2:18:28
  And you've got Penny's dad from Just Good Friends playing
• 2:18:32
  Richard the Third only in Doctor Who.
• 2:18:35
  It's not just that Toxol is a great villain.
• 2:18:38
  He's played by John Ringer, who you know, is was was so well
• 2:18:42
  known even when I was growing up for being the face of not just
• 2:18:46
  good friends, but also getting chased by Indiana Jones bold and
• 2:18:50
  whilst trying to get a chocolate orange in a in an advert for
• 2:18:53
  Terry's chocolate orange. But was one of those wonderful
• 2:18:56
  character actors. I love John who's who really he
• 2:19:00
  is kind of doing an Olivier. You know he's he's he's aping
• 2:19:03
  Olivier's Richard the 3rd. But but it but it works and it's
• 2:19:07
  a great way of, you know, depicting that that sly
• 2:19:11
  character. And I love the moment when
• 2:19:16
  Jacqueline Hill just breaks and goes.
• 2:19:17
  You're right, you're right. I.
• 2:19:21
  Am a fraud but I'm carrying on doing this.
• 2:19:25
  She is fantastic. The scenes between her and
• 2:19:29
  Hartnell are glorious. The fact that you have the the
• 2:19:33
  the female character as the kind of driver and she is wrong, but
• 2:19:38
  she's motivated by absolutely the right reasons.
• 2:19:41
  And she's only wrong because Doctor Who is a programmer said,
• 2:19:44
  well, you can't do that because it would make life too
• 2:19:46
  complicated. So you can't.
• 2:19:48
  But let's just not brush that under the carpet.
• 2:19:50
  We'll say you can't. And then we'll show you try and
• 2:19:53
  we'll show you why. It's a why.
• 2:19:54
  It's a forlorn wish to try and do the best thing to try and set
• 2:19:59
  yourself up against the inevitable flow of history.
• 2:20:03
  And that again makes not only of the environments that we land in
• 2:20:07
  dangerous the the cultures we land in alien, even if they they
• 2:20:14
  look like and and and dangerous and and the separation from the
• 2:20:18
  TARDIS is as is as much as scare as any any other form of
• 2:20:22
  jeopardy. The fact that we're cut off from
• 2:20:24
  20th century Earth and so that everything.
• 2:20:27
  That isn't like that is a threat is dissonant, is disconcerting,
• 2:20:31
  is weird and and yet and and and but also, you know, we are we
• 2:20:37
  are prey to much larger forces, the passage of time, the
• 2:20:41
  inevitability of history. These are big concepts that
• 2:20:45
  place real people in them. And that is proper job.
• 2:20:49
  That is proper. It's a historical, but that's
• 2:20:51
  proper science fiction because it's going you're not just
• 2:20:54
  having an adventure in history. You're having an adventure
• 2:20:57
  stranded in a history that you can't alter.
• 2:21:01
  That's so. It's not just an historical it's
• 2:21:04
  God. It's magnificent.
• 2:21:07
  I would fight to my last breath to keep this out of the bin.
• 2:21:11
  I love it. I love John Lucarotti.
• 2:21:14
  I love Doctor Who. Beautiful, beautiful.
• 2:21:18
  Keep the Aztecs. It is.
• 2:21:20
  It is not. There is not a false note yet.
• 2:21:25
  Joe Well, I don't want. To follow that really but the
• 2:21:30
  but the fights are shit. I.
• 2:21:33
  Quite a lot of the thoughts because it whilst it's doing all
• 2:21:36
  of that small stuff you just talked about there, it remembers
• 2:21:38
  to be an action story as well. There's enough to keep their
• 2:21:41
  their kids interested as well. They're being educated.
• 2:21:43
  But I actually want to talk about the production and I want
• 2:21:46
  to talk about the painted back lofts, which sounds like a
• 2:21:49
  bizarre thing to go for. I just love the ambition the the
• 2:21:53
  visual ambition. Is this Barry Newbury doing
• 2:21:55
  this? Yeah, yes, yeah.
• 2:21:57
  It's just stunning. I mean, they're in a corner of
• 2:22:01
  Line Grove or a studio in the BBC and they just don't care.
• 2:22:05
  They're going to take us all over the world and they're going
• 2:22:08
  to take us all over the universe and you're going to see all of
• 2:22:11
  it. And I think there is genuine
• 2:22:13
  scope and visual splendor with both the sets, which are
• 2:22:17
  detailed and gorgeous. And those back clothes, which I
• 2:22:20
  think sells, sell the story visually in a way that I kind of
• 2:22:25
  need if I'm doing this in a way. Do you know that CGI now, that
• 2:22:28
  sort of wall that they use now? I'm very aware of the fuzzy
• 2:22:32
  lines around people and that they're not where they are.
• 2:22:35
  There's just something solid about those backcloths that
• 2:22:38
  really sells that they are in Mexico back in time.
• 2:22:42
  So yeah, a bizarre thing, but the backloths.
• 2:22:45
  I also want to talk about the score for this.
• 2:22:47
  And forgive me, I know somebody will be able to tell me who does
• 2:22:50
  the score for this. Richard.
• 2:22:52
  Richard Rodney Bennett, who also I want to mention Sir Richard
• 2:22:55
  Rodney Bennett, the first name on the Doctor Who credits to
• 2:22:59
  have been knighted. He deserves it because he he
• 2:23:03
  brings a sense of the exotic to the story.
• 2:23:06
  You know, all those early scenes with the slower music, but
• 2:23:08
  during the fight scenes he's doing like lots of drums and
• 2:23:12
  things like that and adding a lot of pace.
• 2:23:13
  The bit at the end where they run into the temple and they're
• 2:23:16
  trying to get that pulley system to work and the drums are going
• 2:23:19
  crazy. Ian's going out there and it.
• 2:23:22
  People that say there's no pace to any Doctor Who in the 60s, I
• 2:23:25
  think they're wrong because I think for a full part of this
• 2:23:27
  moves by at a lick and the music helps to sell the pace of the
• 2:23:32
  story. And the third thing, if you'll
• 2:23:35
  forgive me, is the beautiful, intelligent and lyrical dialogue
• 2:23:39
  that is in this story. I'll just do a little bit of
• 2:23:42
  quoting if I may. How shall a man know his gods?
• 2:23:46
  By the signs of their divinity. And what if thieves walk amongst
• 2:23:50
  the gods? Well indeed.
• 2:23:52
  Then how shall a man know? Gorgeous.
• 2:23:55
  I see a time where 10,000 shall die in one day.
• 2:23:59
  Where will it end, you Taksa? In total destruction.
• 2:24:03
  Your civilization will pass forever from the land.
• 2:24:06
  You prophecy our doom. I mean, every line in this
• 2:24:11
  script is a fucking banger. This is how you write Doctor Who
• 2:24:16
  and this is how you do it to entertain and to educate and
• 2:24:20
  just a thrill at wordsmiths would watch this and be
• 2:24:23
  thrilled, I think by the dialogue.
• 2:24:25
  I think Toby's right, I think Gareth's right.
• 2:24:28
  This does not put a foot wrong. There's lots of other stuff that
• 2:24:30
  I've written down. I do really, really like how
• 2:24:34
  uncomfortable I feel with the Doctor using Kamaka.
• 2:24:38
  It's a, it's a really, because those things are really funny
• 2:24:41
  and Hartnell plays the jokes brilliantly well.
• 2:24:44
  He is manipulating her feelings and that's not something I'm
• 2:24:48
  used to seeing the Doctor do. So I don't know how I feel about
• 2:24:50
  that, but I quite like it, you know, I quite like that the show
• 2:24:53
  is making me feel that uncomfortable.
• 2:24:55
  And the Doctor as well at the end.
• 2:24:57
  It's amazing. Of course, it's going through.
• 2:24:59
  Rod, I defy you to critique this.
• 2:25:03
  I can't defy it. For me, this is head and
• 2:25:07
  shoulders the best script of the season.
• 2:25:10
  It fulfills that brief of giving you a kind of historical
• 2:25:13
  education, But it doesn't fall into the trap that some of the
• 2:25:16
  others do of either making our heroes either just into into
• 2:25:20
  passive observers. But equally it doesn't force
• 2:25:23
  them into interfere with history in a way that makes them
• 2:25:25
  responsible for established events.
• 2:25:27
  It's so clever that it manages to kind of sit between those two
• 2:25:32
  stalls yet still tell a fantastic story that's
• 2:25:35
  completely gripping. It's a thrilling story.
• 2:25:39
  You've all said such positive things about it and I can only
• 2:25:42
  agree with all all of those, my reasons, and you've covered a
• 2:25:46
  lot of them, so I'll go quite quickly.
• 2:25:48
  I just think as, as you rightly said, Toby, what Lacrosse does
• 2:25:52
  here is make best use of his lead characters and they're all
• 2:25:56
  served so well here. Hartnell, he shows every facet
• 2:26:00
  of his doctor here. We talked about obviously can't
• 2:26:04
  change history, not one line. Gareth, you mentioned the scene
• 2:26:07
  that comes in Part 2, which I actually think is better than
• 2:26:09
  that first scene when he gets so angry.
• 2:26:12
  He's so irate at Barbara. Never seen him so angry and so
• 2:26:16
  dangerous. He's shouting and that's just
• 2:26:18
  it. You didn't think he's so furious
• 2:26:21
  with her. I think Harmel is absolutely
• 2:26:22
  brilliant in that moment. Why is it?
• 2:26:26
  Why is it when Hartner and the Hill are together, it is like
• 2:26:30
  gold. The the elements have hit the
• 2:26:32
  screen. You know, there's a bit in Edge
• 2:26:34
  of Destruction as well. There is I've got.
• 2:26:36
  A theory that Hartner was utterly besotted with Jacqueline
• 2:26:39
  Hill. I'm surprised, Poured himself.
• 2:26:41
  Into those moments because he really.
• 2:26:43
  Raises his game with those moments.
• 2:26:45
  I don't think there's another actor you can see when he likes
• 2:26:47
  actors and when he doesn't particularly like actors.
• 2:26:49
  But I think with Jacqueline Hill, there's just something,
• 2:26:52
  there's something in the chemistry between those two that
• 2:26:55
  he absolutely raises his game with her.
• 2:26:58
  And I mean, she can, she can match it.
• 2:26:59
  She's she's peerless. But it's just those two together
• 2:27:04
  are brilliant. We've touched upon obviously the
• 2:27:06
  Doctor and Kameka. And I'm sorry, Toby, you were
• 2:27:09
  complaining on our first podcast about the sexy waxing us, but
• 2:27:13
  sexy waxing us raises its ugly head in this very first season.
• 2:27:18
  And we have Hart with his beautiful romance with Kamika.
• 2:27:21
  It's it's doomedy loom. Doomedy, windy.
• 2:27:24
  Lovey, lovey. It's it's for.
• 2:27:26
  Lawny warnie Unrequitedy. Why Today Cocoy?
• 2:27:30
  Yeah, I was. Condemned recently for
• 2:27:33
  suggesting that David Tennant and Michelle Ryan had.
• 2:27:37
  Sexy. Chemistry, that was No.
• 2:27:38
  You think this pair are sexy? I mean, they're charming,
• 2:27:42
  they're lovely, but I don't think they're very sexy.
• 2:27:45
  They're beautiful. Don't don't behave just Joe.
• 2:27:48
  And then you've got Hunt always throughout as well.
• 2:27:51
  He's so coming, he's constantly trying to think how can he get
• 2:27:54
  out of this? And I love the fact that he gets
• 2:27:57
  it wrong at the first point. So he gives Ixtor the way to
• 2:28:00
  defeat Ian in battle, not knowing he's going to defeat Ian
• 2:28:04
  just so that he can get his hands on the plans for the two.
• 2:28:06
  And that is such a clever moment.
• 2:28:09
  So I think the docs is brilliant.
• 2:28:10
  Barbara, she is the heart and the backbone of this season.
• 2:28:15
  She fulfils her. She gives Hartnell a run for the
• 2:28:18
  for the lead position here. She stands up to him.
• 2:28:22
  She finds a sympathetic ally in Orthlock.
• 2:28:24
  Ultimately she's got to manipulate and betray him and
• 2:28:27
  you can see that really pains her, but she's got to do it so
• 2:28:30
  they can escape and she bests locks on a couple of occasions.
• 2:28:35
  I love the resolution to this episode two cliffhanger where
• 2:28:38
  she threatens his life and then still proves that she's a God
• 2:28:42
  because she saved Ian's life in doing so.
• 2:28:44
  That is such a clever bit of writing.
• 2:28:46
  The bit on the bit. After she reveals, yeah, I'm
• 2:28:50
  false and she just goes, I'll have them destroy you and you
• 2:28:54
  don't doubt for a second that she would and that.
• 2:28:57
  Is such an unexpected. Bit of prone as well.
• 2:29:00
  Yeah, coils from it, but it's so unexpected.
• 2:29:04
  You do not expect that Barbara's going to kind of give herself
• 2:29:07
  away at that point. We're in episode three.
• 2:29:09
  I think that just comes out of nowhere.
• 2:29:11
  But you're right. She's so angry.
• 2:29:13
  I'm going to quote Battlefield. Is she not magnificent?
• 2:29:17
  I mean, Jacqueline Hill is just the epitome of.
• 2:29:20
  Superlative battlefield. The Aztecs that barely.
• 2:29:23
  OK, there's a slight. Slight difference there,
• 2:29:25
  perchance. And finally, Ian, Toby, you said
• 2:29:29
  at the beginning thinking about kind of how he was originally
• 2:29:32
  written. William Russell is just glorious
• 2:29:35
  in this. Yes, he plays the dashing hero,
• 2:29:37
  the square George hero. You could think he's a bit he's
• 2:29:39
  he's more cardboard as a character than Barbara, but he's
• 2:29:43
  just so effortlessly charming, isn't he?
• 2:29:46
  And he just fills into that slotty beat.
• 2:29:48
  Tixter even uses his thumb to beat him in a fire.
• 2:29:52
  Maybe not quite as dramatically as Sylvester McCoy in Survival,
• 2:29:55
  but he does use his thumb to best his opponent.
• 2:30:00
  It's great. We make real good use.
• 2:30:01
  And even Susan gets a plot as well.
• 2:30:03
  I'm not gonna miss her out, but she's probably the the lesser of
• 2:30:07
  the the four. But yeah, it's my cniffison.
• 2:30:10
  But you. Love it whereas.
• 2:30:11
  William Russell just goes all sick of after he says he's got
• 2:30:13
  engaged and he goes, oh, congratulations.
• 2:30:16
  Cardo's like. He.
• 2:30:18
  Goes it just brings it just brings a bit of reality, but it
• 2:30:20
  brings a bit of reality back to them, doesn't it?
• 2:30:22
  Just delirious, glorious. So quite rightly the Aztecs is
• 2:30:26
  going through to round two. Thank.
• 2:30:28
  God. Something's gone through, I
• 2:30:29
  know. You've got three left, Toby
• 2:30:32
  Darling. Such destruction.
• 2:30:33
  And Marco Polo. Where are you going to?
• 2:30:36
  Go oh. Well, I'm going to go with what
• 2:30:38
  I nearly went with the first time around, but it's
• 2:30:40
  unfortunate timing because it's going to be another Lucarotti
• 2:30:43
  lovin. I am choosing the journey to
• 2:30:46
  Cathay that is Marco Polo and I am going to save it or keep it
• 2:30:52
  from oblivion, which sadly the BBC archives did not do.
• 2:30:57
  And I, I, I don't think I've been clear on my three reasons
• 2:31:00
  at any point. I've just given you these sort
• 2:31:02
  of baffling monologues. That's all I ever do, don't
• 2:31:04
  worry. But but I think again, this, you
• 2:31:08
  know, the trademark that John Lucarotti has of, of, of make
• 2:31:13
  making a virtue of the historical setting that he has
• 2:31:17
  chosen and the characters that he has chosen and weaving Doctor
• 2:31:21
  Who into it so elegantly, I think.
• 2:31:25
  But I think if I was, I think the first thing I would like to
• 2:31:28
  do, I'm going to try and do this where I choose three things.
• 2:31:31
  The 1st I'm going to go is that it is a metaphor.
• 2:31:34
  It is a very, very the script, the adventure itself is a
• 2:31:38
  metaphor for a game of almost for a game of chess in, in the
• 2:31:43
  sense that it is a series of manoeuvres.
• 2:31:48
  And, and the Aztecs is a bit like this as well, where the
• 2:31:51
  characters are, are actually always rather rather sort of
• 2:32:00
  openly what they are, You know, I mean, I know it takes a while
• 2:32:05
  for Marco to cotton on to the fact that the man who keeps
• 2:32:07
  going, I'm not remotely villainous is, is actually a
• 2:32:13
  villain. But I, I, I like the fact that,
• 2:32:16
  you know, Tagana doesn't hide his contempt for the, for the
• 2:32:20
  travellers and the, and, and, and Marco doesn't hide the fact
• 2:32:26
  that he wants to keep the TARDIS, that, you know, they're
• 2:32:29
  all very, it's all very friendly.
• 2:32:32
  And yet the stakes are so high because actually nobody in the
• 2:32:37
  dynamic between the, between Marco and the Doctor is, is a
• 2:32:40
  bad guy. It's just that they have, they
• 2:32:43
  have, yes, Tagana is, and he's, he's throwing sort of poison
• 2:32:46
  into the well, literally and metaphorically.
• 2:32:48
  But but Marco and the the Doctor just want different things.
• 2:32:52
  Well, they want the same thing. They both want the TARDIS and
• 2:32:55
  they're both nakedly open about the fact that they both want the
• 2:32:58
  TARDIS and that they're both going to go to.
• 2:33:00
  But, but Marco is a nice man, so he's not go.
• 2:33:03
  I want your TARDIS and I'm going to kill you.
• 2:33:05
  It's like, you're welcome. Join us.
• 2:33:06
  Come on our jaunt. It's going to be a great time.
• 2:33:08
  We're going to go to all these weigh stations that get more
• 2:33:10
  opulent as we get closer to Google Khan's Paris, because the
• 2:33:15
  design has done his research and he's really good at his job.
• 2:33:17
  And there's a sort of Rhythian element to this TV show you're
• 2:33:20
  watching. Just throw that in as A and,
• 2:33:24
  and, and I think it's a really elegant and lyrical and
• 2:33:27
  intelligent piece of writing that that, you know, is, is very
• 2:33:34
  sort of naked about the, the fact that it has these, these
• 2:33:39
  manoeuvres and manipulations as part of its, its plot.
• 2:33:42
  And I think that is ambitious and intelligent and really,
• 2:33:48
  really very well done. The second thing I will choose
• 2:33:54
  is that never mind Dennis Spooner being funny, John
• 2:33:59
  Lucarotti has loads of funnies in here that I think are sort of
• 2:34:02
  more organic, so that you have this very lyrical, intelligent,
• 2:34:06
  very subtle, very well characterized show.
• 2:34:08
  But then it has Wang Low, who's hilarious and massively camp.
• 2:34:13
  And my favorite he's. Yeah.
• 2:34:15
  But I'm sure does not surprise me, Joan and and and is glorious
• 2:34:22
  and is, you know, people who say that, you know, I don't.
• 2:34:26
  People are saying that, you know, it's 21st century, Doctor
• 2:34:28
  Who's gone woke and you go, you know.
• 2:34:30
  Well, it was quite, you know, you may have wanted to watch it
• 2:34:33
  earlier. People go, Doctor Who's a bit
• 2:34:35
  bloody camp, isn't it these days?
• 2:34:37
  You go. Have you met Wang Low?
• 2:34:42
  But also, he's not the only funny character.
• 2:34:44
  Kubla Ka. The great wheeze, of course, is
• 2:34:47
  that they build up the episodes called Mighty Kubla Khan and
• 2:34:51
  he's this humbling guy with a dominating wife.
• 2:34:55
  Who then plays the doctorate chess at backgammon, and the
• 2:35:00
  list of the things that the Doctor wins at backgammon,
• 2:35:03
  including the entire commerce of Burma for one year.
• 2:35:08
  And then, just as the Doctor looks like through or after all
• 2:35:12
  that manipulative, he's actually used his guile and his wit and
• 2:35:16
  his skill and his rapport with Kuba Khan to win the TARDIS back
• 2:35:21
  fair and square and sold the adventure that way.
• 2:35:25
  He. Fucks it up.
• 2:35:28
  Which is, I mean, not only great plotting wise, but it's also
• 2:35:32
  really, really funny. And then the the wonderful
• 2:35:36
  subplot that we have about Ping Cho, who's going to marry this
• 2:35:40
  guy that she's never met and you have this ends on ends on a
• 2:35:45
  punch line because they go he he he drank this draft of of
• 2:35:51
  Quicksilver, which is mercury that helps to give you eternal
• 2:35:54
  youth and expired. So basically he took some some
• 2:36:00
  what is it 12th centuries by the years I've heard 13th century
• 2:36:04
  Viagra and topped his clogs and and that very then fortunately
• 2:36:10
  means that Ping Cho, who we rather like, doesn't have to
• 2:36:12
  marry this person that she doesn't want to marry.
• 2:36:15
  And oh, and here's here's the rider from Shang Tu who's
• 2:36:19
  conveniently hanging around to we can fix her up with instead
• 2:36:22
  Ling Tao. So I think, I think it's it's
• 2:36:27
  it's again very sensitive to being true and but also.
• 2:36:37
  To be. Sympathetic and I don't mean
• 2:36:39
  that as in feeling sorry for, I mean, you know, simpatico.
• 2:36:43
  I mean, I mean, you know, on the same wavelength as the
• 2:36:48
  civilizations and the characters that it is introducing us to.
• 2:36:52
  There's there's no sort of suggestion of we're from the
• 2:36:55
  20th century, so let's come and patronize these guys with our
• 2:36:58
  superior modernity. We learn as much from these
• 2:37:02
  historical characters by we, I mean the TARDIS crew, but you
• 2:37:06
  know, there's, there's never any sense that, you know, we're
• 2:37:08
  going back in history to show them how it's done.
• 2:37:11
  We learn from those characters because they're not patronized.
• 2:37:14
  Marco is. A Sam, the doctor calls.
• 2:37:17
  Him a savage in in in terms of, yes, strictly speaking, in terms
• 2:37:22
  of what he knows compared to what we know, but actually for
• 2:37:25
  his sensitivity, his intuition and his compassion and all of
• 2:37:28
  those sorts of things we can learn from him.
• 2:37:30
  And and and I love the fact that he and Ian have this mutual
• 2:37:33
  respect, but to get what he needs to do, Ian has to sort of
• 2:37:37
  lie to Marco. And then Marco goes, yeah, but
• 2:37:40
  you lied to me, so I now can't believe you.
• 2:37:42
  And whereas the viewer going, yeah, that's true.
• 2:37:45
  I kind of that's fair enough. That's really annoying because
• 2:37:48
  we want because he we know he's nice and he would give us the
• 2:37:51
  TARDIS, but we've kind of given him the reason not to give us
• 2:37:54
  the TARDIS. And that's drama.
• 2:37:56
  Do you know what I mean? That's not somebody just being a
• 2:37:58
  baddie. That's somebody for perfectly
• 2:38:00
  understandable reasons that we sympathise with stopping us from
• 2:38:04
  getting the thing that we want. And that goes again back to the
• 2:38:07
  brilliance of this period of Doctor Who, of going, It's not
• 2:38:10
  just that you're in an adventure and there's this jeopardy and
• 2:38:12
  there's all this stuff happening.
• 2:38:14
  It's the fact that if you, the one element, if, if you are
• 2:38:18
  taken, if you are separated from the TARDIS, you are fucked.
• 2:38:22
  Because history is scary. It's a big place.
• 2:38:25
  It takes you months to travel through it.
• 2:38:27
  And if you don't have that thing, you ain't getting out of
• 2:38:30
  there and you're not going to be able to build another one and
• 2:38:33
  you're going to be stuck. You're cut off, cut off from
• 2:38:36
  here. And and and that very idea of
• 2:38:38
  being marooned is a central threat that we that we're so
• 2:38:43
  blase about these days. Now you don't really have that.
• 2:38:45
  And if there was a story about, oh, we need to get the TARDIS
• 2:38:48
  back here, we'd be a bit bored by that because we're like, no,
• 2:38:50
  no, no, come on, show us some adventures.
• 2:38:52
  But this early in the show, it's a really palpable threat that's
• 2:38:56
  really exciting and adds to that feeling of sort of alienation
• 2:39:01
  that even when we're not on an alien planet, when we're in
• 2:39:04
  history, when it's supposed to be, oh, it's just humans and
• 2:39:07
  it's boring and stuff. It's not.
• 2:39:08
  It's a science fiction show in an historical setting.
• 2:39:11
  And my third thing, it might be my 97th, who knows?
• 2:39:15
  My third thing is that it's a beautiful production.
• 2:39:19
  The production design is fantastic.
• 2:39:22
  I think we can guess that Warrior Sustain has probably
• 2:39:24
  done a a very good job. It's expertly cast.
• 2:39:27
  I think the cast are fantastic but my God I would kill because
• 2:39:32
  even in black and white it looks they've got BBC does historical
• 2:39:35
  dramas so well. Barry Newbury sets are
• 2:39:38
  absolutely fantastic. I think it would be an absolute
• 2:39:41
  Peach on the eye. It is a true classic.
• 2:39:44
  I also think the fact that it is missing.
• 2:39:47
  I've done a whole podcast on how I think we appreciate Doctor Who
• 2:39:51
  more because of the bits are missing.
• 2:39:52
  So I hate the fact that we can't see it and yet the fact that we
• 2:39:55
  can't see it. That added free song of being
• 2:39:58
  you always love more the person that you know that you're never
• 2:40:00
  going to be able to be with. You know what I mean?
• 2:40:03
  That you will never you will never lose that sort of but but
• 2:40:07
  there's something rather beautiful about it as well That
• 2:40:09
  that that sense that we can't have it is is sort of it's it's
• 2:40:13
  that sort of pain that. But it's that sort of sadness
• 2:40:16
  that's sort of quite nice in a way.
• 2:40:18
  That longing that that that, that, that, that melancholy, the
• 2:40:21
  sweet taste of melancholy. I love Marco Polo.
• 2:40:24
  I think it's beautiful. I wish we could see it.
• 2:40:27
  But also the fact that we can't perhaps makes me love it just a
• 2:40:32
  little bit more. Well, let's just go to the
• 2:40:34
  comments. It'd be difficult to follow
• 2:40:37
  that, but. I'm Gareth and not me.
• 2:40:41
  LSJ says amazing no matter how you experience it.
• 2:40:44
  A feast for the years best story of the year.
• 2:40:49
  John Binsania, a credible first historical and a richly told
• 2:40:52
  journey expansively over seven weeks.
• 2:40:55
  Hope the missing episodes come back one day.
• 2:40:57
  James. H Says looks pretty, but Christ,
• 2:40:59
  it's dull. Even the 35 minute Recon drugs.
• 2:41:03
  Fascinating implications for the nature of the TARDIS and its
• 2:41:05
  contents, and four months of travel in mostly the same
• 2:41:09
  clothes. A technical wonder, I'm sure,
• 2:41:11
  and a design classic. But please, Bennett.
• 2:41:14
  You know, he's he does like stirring the part a bit.
• 2:41:17
  I genuinely think he thinks everything he writes in his
• 2:41:20
  comments, but he loves it. Darren lit roundels.
• 2:41:23
  There are times when I'm all about the destination and it's a
• 2:41:25
  great one here, but this is a story where I enjoy the journey.
• 2:41:29
  It's just like he's a Mariners. It oozes quality, not like the
• 2:41:32
  keys. Mariners.
• 2:41:34
  Committed performances and a lovely score from Tristan Carry.
• 2:41:37
  No animation would do this justice, Jack.
• 2:41:40
  Coyus is an epic travelogue. Mark Eden gives the first solid
• 2:41:43
  guest performance in the show's history.
• 2:41:45
  Really commanding and charming presence.
• 2:41:46
  The heart of the story as the TARDIS team all take turns in
• 2:41:50
  being shunted off to the side. Tigana is such a compelling
• 2:41:53
  figure. The most Doctor Who stories have
• 2:41:55
  a similar character to him somewhere, and Tristan Kerry's
• 2:41:58
  best music does so much for enhancing the story and
• 2:42:01
  atmosphere. Daniel Rawnsley strong contender
• 2:42:04
  for Doctor Who's Lost masterpiece, a historical epic
• 2:42:07
  where the original educational nature of the show really hits
• 2:42:10
  home. We can reconstruct it in our
• 2:42:12
  heads through photo montages, animation, and target
• 2:42:15
  novelizations, but it's likely nothing will ever compare to
• 2:42:19
  seeing the real thing. If only we could see it.
• 2:42:22
  Keep it. Mataline, Newby says top.
• 2:42:25
  For me, even without visuals, the surviving photos give a real
• 2:42:28
  sense of how incredible this story looked.
• 2:42:31
  Greg says easily the best of the season.
• 2:42:34
  For almost every second of listening to it.
• 2:42:36
  I was very intrigued and I really want an animation for it.
• 2:42:39
  Daniel Knight said it's The Adventures of Marco Polo,
• 2:42:42
  featuring the cast of Doctor Who being directed by Waris Hussain.
• 2:42:47
  We can imagine it looks good and even at 7 episodes it keeps our
• 2:42:50
  attention. The only floor is the travellers
• 2:42:52
  of surplus to the plot at the end and just escape.
• 2:42:55
  David Gillespie Pratt The audio and telly snaps suggest this was
• 2:42:58
  an impressive production and we know from the first story that
• 2:43:01
  Waris can deliver the goods. The Doctor mellows a little and
• 2:43:05
  it's a pleasure to spend a few months with Marco Polo's Caravan
• 2:43:09
  John. Arnold says Marco Polo
• 2:43:10
  luxuriates in its length. The travelogue nature keeps it
• 2:43:13
  moving along whilst finding time for delights such as Pinchot's
• 2:43:16
  storytelling. Love how Kubla Khan is played as
• 2:43:19
  such a gentle comedy character. Big Orange Michael is back and
• 2:43:23
  says I'd love to see more footage or stills.
• 2:43:27
  A truly epic story where the TARDIS crew are there for weeks
• 2:43:30
  or months. Please, whoever has got this
• 2:43:32
  one, give it back. Dave Rennie said Doctor Who's
• 2:43:35
  answer to the famous biblical epics like Ben Hur.
• 2:43:38
  It's very long, full of wonderful characters, progresses
• 2:43:41
  from place to place and has a satisfying ending.
• 2:43:44
  Spiky. Neal says great fun.
• 2:43:46
  The main problem with it for me is Marco Polo.
• 2:43:48
  He's such an ass he steals the TARDIS, complaints when the
• 2:43:52
  TARDIS true try to steal their property back, is willfully
• 2:43:55
  blind to the point of stupidity with Tagana, and he's generally
• 2:43:59
  obstinate and awkward. Jason.
• 2:44:01
  Thompson says in contrast. Utterly sublime.
• 2:44:04
  I just adore this story. Sumptuous dialogue, wonderfully
• 2:44:07
  rounded guest characters and gorgeous design.
• 2:44:09
  As we can see from the production photos, Mark Eden is
• 2:44:12
  one of the best guest terms in the whole series.
• 2:44:16
  Paul. Quinn, I suspect we'll all be
• 2:44:17
  disappointed when we finally see this.
• 2:44:19
  Too long, too slow, racially insensitive.
• 2:44:23
  To alleviate the boredom. We'll shout out, Rita every time
• 2:44:26
  Allen Bradley appears. Yeah, I couldn't believe it when
• 2:44:29
  I found out that was Allen Bradley before throwing
• 2:44:32
  ourselves on the floor as if being hit by a tram.
• 2:44:35
  Quilpin says get my vote as best of the season stuns head and
• 2:44:39
  shoulders above the others. If it's found, it's got to be
• 2:44:41
  stunning and. Gary Russell, as controversial
• 2:44:45
  as ever, can't understand why everyone loves this.
• 2:44:49
  Well, can I go next just to raise a little bit of jeopardy?
• 2:44:52
  I feel really bad now because Toby's saying, and I love the
• 2:44:57
  word you kept using. Toby was intellectual constantly
• 2:45:00
  throughout your your wonderful appraisal there.
• 2:45:03
  But I just don't like Marco Polo.
• 2:45:05
  I'm sorry. I'm going to bin Marco Polo.
• 2:45:09
  I just find it unutterably dull. The narration of episode 6
• 2:45:15
  suggests that they've just had a day of hard riding, and whilst
• 2:45:18
  I'm not sure I want to see Hartnell in some sort of sex
• 2:45:21
  tape, it might have actually livened things up a little bit
• 2:45:24
  because I just find it really boring.
• 2:45:27
  So my three reasons are the guest characters.
• 2:45:30
  We've got 2 main guest carrots, obviously, Mr. Marco Polo and
• 2:45:34
  the evil warlord to Ghana because we have to call that in
• 2:45:37
  every single scene. They've got to be known as evil
• 2:45:41
  Mongol Warlord to Ghana just in case we forget who he is.
• 2:45:44
  Marco I just find incredibly dull.
• 2:45:48
  So in part one he gives kind of a potted history of his life,
• 2:45:51
  but otherwise we don't really get that much of A measure of
• 2:45:54
  him. And he's not a particular
• 2:45:56
  character I believe in or have an emotional attachment to.
• 2:45:59
  And a couple of people, Toby even mentioned himself.
• 2:46:02
  The fact that Tagana is constantly pulling the wool over
• 2:46:04
  his eyes, it just doesn't make me relate to him or sympathize
• 2:46:07
  with him at all. Maybe the doctor referring to
• 2:46:10
  him as a poor, pathetic, stupid savage is a bit harsh, but maybe
• 2:46:14
  it's not without 'cause. Then you've got, of course, evil
• 2:46:18
  Warlord Tagana. He's definitely from the
• 2:46:21
  pantomime school of villainy, but he doesn't have the wit or
• 2:46:23
  the flamboyance for me to pull it off.
• 2:46:25
  There's no campus there. He doesn't even give us an
• 2:46:28
  Aimley chuckle episode. One here's Walter Marco Polo.
• 2:46:35
  Episode 2 just his knuckle I'm I'm.
• 2:46:41
  Surprised you don't remember the end of episode one joke because
• 2:46:44
  that's when he says I will bring Hubla Khan to his knee.
• 2:46:47
  Oh my God. Oh, that goes into the right up.
• 2:46:52
  I thought that was right up your street.
• 2:46:53
  Promising. But not delivering.
• 2:46:56
  Otherwise we've got Ping Cho, who's sweet, but again, she's
• 2:47:01
  not really got many interesting character beats.
• 2:47:03
  So it's not someone I want to live with for seven episodes.
• 2:47:08
  Yes, Wang Low I've got written down.
• 2:47:10
  Wang Low is a bit of life and character, thank God.
• 2:47:14
  Kubla Kahns wife is played by the magnificent Claire
• 2:47:16
  Davenport, who will go on to a long history of comedy parts,
• 2:47:20
  especially in Dick Emery. But she's not allowed to give
• 2:47:24
  that character any particular life.
• 2:47:26
  So it all just feels a bit worthy and a bit po faced.
• 2:47:29
  And yeah, not for me. The second point is the plot.
• 2:47:32
  This to me, feels like a journey in search of a plot.
• 2:47:35
  And we never quite get there. We get so many repeated scenes
• 2:47:39
  of evil war or Tagana hiring assassins and then them failing
• 2:47:43
  to do their job. And the Doctor and crew can't
• 2:47:45
  escape from all this padding because they're told they've got
• 2:47:48
  to stay out of the TARDIS, which they do, Unless they don't, and
• 2:47:53
  then the key is taken. But then they've got a spare
• 2:47:55
  key, but they still can't escape.
• 2:47:57
  It's just all this backwards and forwards, backwards and
• 2:47:59
  forwards. No wonder the Doctor's so damn
• 2:48:01
  grumpy. And then the final realization
• 2:48:04
  at the end that Takani is actually planning to assassinate
• 2:48:07
  Kupla Khan. The TARDIS crew work that out in
• 2:48:10
  about 5 seconds flat. They've got no clues at all.
• 2:48:13
  God knows we've had seven episodes.
• 2:48:15
  We could have built up to that, but there were no seeds.
• 2:48:17
  So they realised it in five seconds.
• 2:48:19
  Then it's all over in the flash. Very unsatisfying.
• 2:48:22
  I think they. Are a bit suspicious of him.
• 2:48:24
  Before that, they're suspicious. Of him, but they don't know what
• 2:48:26
  he's planning to do. They work that out just by
• 2:48:29
  magic. It's not a very Poirot moment.
• 2:48:32
  And there's so many educational on the nose moments in this.
• 2:48:35
  The description of how condensation forms, bamboo
• 2:48:39
  making noise in a fire. It's all just about, yeah, it's
• 2:48:43
  not for me. And finally, yeah, I'm sure this
• 2:48:46
  looks absolutely beautiful, and the photographs do, but just
• 2:48:49
  looking sumptuous isn't enough to pull me through.
• 2:48:51
  So I'm sorry, Marco Polo is going in the bin.
• 2:48:55
  What? Madness is this.
• 2:48:57
  I'll suggest you go and wash the sensorizer, it might perk you up
• 2:49:00
  a bit. I.
• 2:49:00
  Enjoyed the sensorize I know you did.
• 2:49:04
  Gareth Right. So I always like this one out of
• 2:49:09
  the BBC audio range. He's always the one I generally
• 2:49:13
  go to out of all the soundtracks that exist.
• 2:49:17
  And for this time around I did something different, actually
• 2:49:20
  took the loose cannon reconstructions.
• 2:49:24
  There's a colour versions on YouTube and I'd rather enjoyed
• 2:49:27
  them. And I've got me three things.
• 2:49:30
  And what I've noticed and while while you guys have been talking
• 2:49:34
  is there's a definite theme here because they're all things that
• 2:49:39
  aren't necessarily about the regulars.
• 2:49:40
  And I think this is the thing about Marco Polo kind of shift
• 2:49:43
  in focus a little bit because you've got the fact that the
• 2:49:47
  first point of this is around Polo himself.
• 2:49:51
  You said he's a little bit obnoxious the way he does
• 2:49:53
  things, how he goes about things.
• 2:49:56
  But this is a chap who has the authority in that time to be
• 2:49:58
  that obnoxious. You know, he has the seal of the
• 2:50:01
  Khan to be able to say right, that TARDIS mine hands off now
• 2:50:06
  it belongs to him. That's it.
• 2:50:07
  That's how we do things here, you know, and the story is
• 2:50:12
  almost then surrounded by him. It's his narration as we go on
• 2:50:15
  the journey to Cafe we, you know, he's he's the one that we,
• 2:50:19
  if he wasn't then invested as a character, we wouldn't have that
• 2:50:24
  narration. We would just be following the
• 2:50:25
  TARDIS crew and their cat and mouse game as they try and work
• 2:50:28
  with Polo. But instead the focus seems to
• 2:50:30
  shift to Polo, even up to the point of the end when it's Polo
• 2:50:33
  that sorts out to Ghana in the sword fight.
• 2:50:37
  Next to that, then you've got Tagana himself, who, you know,
• 2:50:41
  when you think of all the moustache twirling bad guys
• 2:50:44
  we've ever had in our time, they usually have some side guy that,
• 2:50:48
  you know, go and go and sort that thing out.
• 2:50:49
  The other thing, bad thing we need to do, go and get done.
• 2:50:51
  Whereas Tagana takes more of an active hand in this, you know,
• 2:50:54
  he tries setting the fire to bring the assassins down.
• 2:50:56
  He's the one that ends up got in the water bags.
• 2:50:58
  Again, more around this sort of world within this caravan that
• 2:51:03
  we're going on. And it is a journey.
• 2:51:04
  It is a journey from beginning to end.
• 2:51:06
  And the last thing that is, as Toby's already pointed out, it's
• 2:51:10
  Kublai Khan himself. And something that I'm finding
• 2:51:13
  now as I'm getting older, the ails of old men and talking
• 2:51:18
  about those ails when you're together and finishing on that
• 2:51:21
  wonderful, you know, the list of stuff that he's won.
• 2:51:24
  And then at the end of it, oh, he's giving me his paper
• 2:51:26
  currency. That's it.
• 2:51:27
  That's all I've got for it. And, and again, it's, but it's
• 2:51:30
  interesting that I found that the three things that I've
• 2:51:32
  raised are about that world that we're in.
• 2:51:36
  And it's it's that world that takes you through that journey,
• 2:51:40
  the catch the cat and mouse game that she sends some jeopardy to
• 2:51:42
  get to that point. But it's the through line of
• 2:51:44
  that caravan travelling with a dignitary that, you know, really
• 2:51:47
  should be talking about peace and everything.
• 2:51:48
  But actually, secretly, he's got a massive assassination plot up
• 2:51:51
  his sleeve, which, let's face it.
• 2:51:55
  If. It's a long time to have an
• 2:51:56
  assassination plot under your sleeve for that long to get
• 2:51:59
  through it. And so to keep everyone vested
• 2:52:01
  over a period of six weeks, I think they do pretty well.
• 2:52:03
  So it's a keeper for me. Yeah, that's.
• 2:52:04
  Because Marcos thick as fucking falls for every single time.
• 2:52:09
  He's got that authority around him.
• 2:52:11
  He's still got the authority. You can get lots of thick people
• 2:52:14
  in powerful positions, but he's still got a sense of authority
• 2:52:16
  around them. I can't.
• 2:52:19
  I can't disagree given recent events, Joe.
• 2:52:24
  I mean, I would put this through just for and Toby said the line
• 2:52:27
  as well about where he goes, you know, the entire worth of Burma
• 2:52:31
  for a year. But he says it's so
• 2:52:33
  apologetically. I how we've laughter every time
• 2:52:36
  Arnold says that line. I've got to confess, much like
• 2:52:40
  the BBC, I completely forgot this story exists and prepared
• 2:52:43
  no notes for it whatsoever. I was going through the emphasis
• 2:52:46
  on the iPlayer and somehow went from Edge of Destruction to the
• 2:52:50
  Keys of Mariners. So you're saying it's?
• 2:52:53
  Totally unmemorable, therefore you're voting it out, not.
• 2:52:56
  At all what I will say I'll just add one thing really, because I
• 2:52:59
  think both Gareth and Toby have been very eloquent.
• 2:53:02
  Rod, you've been insane as usual, and that is I just love
• 2:53:06
  the length of this story. I love the fact that it's seven
• 2:53:09
  episodes long, and I love the fact I think it's the first and
• 2:53:12
  only time where we step into history and we go on an epic
• 2:53:16
  journey across a huge distance slowly.
• 2:53:20
  And I really like that. Again, it's grounding the show
• 2:53:23
  in realism in a way that I really love.
• 2:53:25
  And I think the way they use the narration, those beautifully
• 2:53:28
  narrated scenes to get us from A to B when we need to.
• 2:53:32
  Again, it leads into what you were saying, Gareth, about this
• 2:53:34
  being Marco Polo's story, rather than otherwise it would be Ian
• 2:53:37
  or somebody else doing those narration bits.
• 2:53:39
  Yeah. So I just, I just love the fact
• 2:53:41
  that this takes place over a huge amount of locations over a
• 2:53:45
  huge amount of time. So successful.
• 2:53:47
  We'll do it again in the Ghost Monument in series 11.
• 2:53:50
  Oh, sorry. With slightly less crisp
• 2:53:54
  dialogue in that time. And what the other thing I want
• 2:53:58
  to say about the production is, gosh, those photographs that
• 2:54:01
  turn up in, you know, the 60s and things like that, those
• 2:54:04
  colour pictures of these sets, I'm perfectly convinced that if
• 2:54:08
  this existed, it would be the best looking William Hartman
• 2:54:12
  story by a country mile. And I remember when those, do
• 2:54:15
  you remember when the telly snaps were printed in Doctor Who
• 2:54:17
  magazine? I pored over them for hours and
• 2:54:21
  hours just looking at these tiny little bits, little snapshots of
• 2:54:25
  Marco Polo and just how fucking gorgeous it looked.
• 2:54:29
  Rod, you're mad. Of course it's going through.
• 2:54:32
  OK, so Marco Polo goes through to round two.
• 2:54:35
  We're down to the dialects on the edge of destruction.
• 2:54:37
  Do you want to go next, Joe? Yes.
• 2:54:39
  If I may, I'd like to choose the dialects if I may, please.
• 2:54:43
  And I've just chosen 3 scenes that really exemplify just how
• 2:54:48
  brilliant this story is and why I wanna put it through.
• 2:54:51
  So I just love Barbara being trapped in the city in episode
• 2:54:55
  one because it's our first step on an alien planet.
• 2:54:57
  We basically cut off the the older female regular that we
• 2:55:01
  love and put her into a situation of pure horror.
• 2:55:06
  It's so well done. Claustrophobic is distressing,
• 2:55:09
  she's panicked. It feels like the architecture
• 2:55:11
  itself is closing in on her. The sound effects that they use,
• 2:55:15
  it makes the city feel like it's alive, like she's inside a
• 2:55:17
  living thing. You know, the lift carries her
• 2:55:20
  away into the nervous system of the planet.
• 2:55:22
  And then finally, when we think we've had enough, she's running
• 2:55:25
  around. She's, you know, smacking
• 2:55:27
  against the walls. There is a genuine sense of
• 2:55:29
  terror. She is confronted with something
• 2:55:32
  that we don't even see is that horrific, although it's
• 2:55:36
  represented by a sink plunger. And she just again howls in
• 2:55:40
  total horror and as a suspense sequence in Doctor Who.
• 2:55:46
  Maybe a few moments in the new series aside, I don't think it's
• 2:55:49
  ever been bested. I think it is.
• 2:55:51
  It is truly, truly squeaky pants time watching that moment.
• 2:55:56
  I also really love the radiation sickness and how that plays out
• 2:56:01
  because it feels like the planet itself is a massive threat to
• 2:56:04
  them. So you have sequences of them in
• 2:56:06
  the Dalek cells, ugly, sweaty, impotent heroes angry at the
• 2:56:12
  Doctor for putting them in that sort of danger.
• 2:56:14
  So it feels very real, the reaction to it.
• 2:56:17
  And then they're forced into this uncomfortable situation of
• 2:56:19
  sending a child out into danger to rescue them.
• 2:56:23
  It just feels, I keep saying realistic and real, but it
• 2:56:27
  really, really does. It didn't mark a polar as well
• 2:56:30
  Rod. I.
• 2:56:32
  Love, I love how all those things play out.
• 2:56:34
  They sweat up their faces. The actors look genuinely tired,
• 2:56:38
  like we don't do this in the new series.
• 2:56:40
  You know, we go off to these science fiction worlds and
• 2:56:42
  they're sometimes they're kind of scary, intense and all of
• 2:56:45
  this, but you just don't feel like the characters are in real
• 2:56:48
  danger like they are here. And I love how it plays out.
• 2:56:51
  And the last thing I want to talk about is the big argument
• 2:56:56
  of trying to convince the Thales to go and fight for them in
• 2:57:00
  Episode 4, after that superb cliffhanger where we've all
• 2:57:03
  forgotten about the fluid link. And so we're off to the tiles
• 2:57:07
  with four episodes. That's about right for this
• 2:57:09
  story. And then the rugs pulled under
• 2:57:11
  us. Shit.
• 2:57:12
  The fluid links. Back in the Darling City, we've
• 2:57:14
  got to go back. And just how it splits the two
• 2:57:17
  sets of regulars and uses them so smartly.
• 2:57:19
  So Barbara's really frightened and she's she's just happy to
• 2:57:23
  send them in she goes. Of course they'll fight for us
• 2:57:26
  and the Doctor, as ever, callous bastard that he is at this
• 2:57:30
  point, is you're like, you know, with me to lead them.
• 2:57:32
  Of course there'll be a marvellous fighting force.
• 2:57:35
  And then on the other side you have Ian and Susan, Ian who's
• 2:57:38
  basically saying I will not ask them to die for me.
• 2:57:41
  They have to come to the conclusion that they want to
• 2:57:44
  fight. And it's just so brilliantly
• 2:57:47
  played out, so beautifully acted by all the regulars.
• 2:57:50
  It's a, it's a good moral debate because it doesn't put the
• 2:57:54
  winning argument in either side of that argument.
• 2:57:57
  You hear both sides. And as a viewer, you're sort of
• 2:58:00
  asked, what would I do in that situation?
• 2:58:02
  I always feel like that's the best sort of drama.
• 2:58:04
  It's don't, don't lecture, but tell me how, what I'm supposed
• 2:58:06
  to think, present the argument. I'll make my choice.
• 2:58:10
  And it's just smart with it. So there's a million reasons why
• 2:58:13
  people are going to put the dialects through the dialects
• 2:58:15
  themselves. You know, the, the design, the
• 2:58:19
  all of it. But those are my three reasons
• 2:58:21
  for putting it through. I think for our first step into
• 2:58:24
  an alien world, it is one genuinely one of the most
• 2:58:28
  claustrophobic, one of the most dangerous worlds we've ever been
• 2:58:32
  in. Doctor Who rarely bettered and I
• 2:58:34
  want to put it through. Brilliant.
• 2:58:36
  Let's go to the comments, Michael Storm says.
• 2:58:38
  A solid story that successfully straddles Flash Gordon style
• 2:58:42
  sci-fi, HG Wells wonder and more contemporary forward thinking
• 2:58:46
  science fiction. The Daleks are far more like a
• 2:58:49
  group of people as opposed to monsters than they ever will be
• 2:58:52
  again. But the Doctor is still an utter
• 2:58:54
  bastard. Arrogant, self centred,
• 2:58:56
  dismissive and a danger to those around him.
• 2:58:59
  John. Betzalia Nation may use the same
• 2:59:01
  old stock cliches again and again in the future, but this is
• 2:59:03
  still an enjoyable page turning romp.
• 2:59:06
  Easy to see why the pepper pots caught the kids own
• 2:59:08
  imaginations. Possible inspiration for I'm A
• 2:59:11
  Celebrity, with its many death defying challenges.
• 2:59:14
  Nosh. Or Ant and Dec went back and
• 2:59:15
  watched this before they came up with that format.
• 2:59:17
  But hey, anything is possible. Daniel Ramsley said the series
• 2:59:21
  first ever bug eyed monsters are also the best.
• 2:59:23
  A story of contrasts with a great build up towards the the
• 2:59:27
  Daleks themselves. It's also a strong morality play
• 2:59:30
  and a satisfying climax, even though the pacing does slow down
• 2:59:33
  to a crawl before the end. Dave Renee's stupendous Susan is
• 2:59:38
  annoying as always, but the others are terrific.
• 2:59:40
  The reveal of the dialects and the nuclear war angle are so
• 2:59:43
  memorable. One of the best hardles.
• 2:59:46
  Darren Randall says maybe a little too long, though not as
• 2:59:48
  cutable as recently proven. But the actors really put the
• 2:59:51
  work in, I believe, in those cage sequences.
• 2:59:54
  It's such a mood piece with that score and iconic sound effects.
• 2:59:58
  Q6 Wonderful design. Who got lucky?
• 3:00:02
  I do wonder if that's an episode we could have lost Andy
• 3:00:04
  Parkinson, the story that kicked off children's scuffling behind
• 3:00:07
  the sofa and probably meant the show carried on past its initial
• 3:00:10
  run. I find it over long and the
• 3:00:12
  Chasm episode is endless. I actually prefer the movie, but
• 3:00:16
  you can't argue this story's importance to Doctor Who.
• 3:00:18
  Big Orange, Michael said. Without these seven episodes,
• 3:00:21
  we're not here today talking about Doctor Who.
• 3:00:23
  The first four episodes are great.
• 3:00:25
  The next three are hit and miss. Yes, the cliffhanger to episode
• 3:00:28
  one is iconic, but the episode 4 cliffhanger is equally
• 3:00:31
  memorable. David Gillespie Pratt A game of
• 3:00:33
  two halves. The 1st is better than the 2nd,
• 3:00:36
  but I'd like to have a special shout out for episode 3.
• 3:00:39
  The Doctor and friends use their brains to find a way out of the
• 3:00:42
  cell, and while it takes an episode, the eventual escape is
• 3:00:45
  highly satisfying. Gary.
• 3:00:47
  Russell says, gosh, it's very controversial tonight, Gary over
• 3:00:50
  long but enthralling when it's good.
• 3:00:52
  It's a yawn fest when it's got the files in it, Daniel.
• 3:00:55
  Knight 4 episodes of suspense, followed by three episodes of
• 3:00:58
  Terry Nation Mining is Pulp Fiction tropes not helped by
• 3:01:01
  Richard Martin's direction, which is in a patch on
• 3:01:04
  Christopher Barry's James. H said a story that knows it
• 3:01:07
  needs to keep on building on characters and pause for breath.
• 3:01:10
  The city design is magnificent. While the story raises so many
• 3:01:13
  questions, that's never addressed as after this the
• 3:01:16
  Dalek the mostly bad is with no real history, the start of the
• 3:01:20
  Nation Bingo card game, but only a few minor holes in an
• 3:01:23
  otherwise keeper John. Arnold the Daleks invents Doctor
• 3:01:27
  Who as we know it, bringing the pulp sci-fi frills, that great
• 3:01:31
  glorious radio onic oddness to Sydney Newman's more educational
• 3:01:34
  intent. Right story in the right place
• 3:01:37
  at the right time to send the series stratospheric.
• 3:01:40
  Jacoius has the most iconic story in Doctor Who.
• 3:01:43
  Every few years we get riffs, remakes, remixes and it's not
• 3:01:46
  hard to see why. This borrows from every
• 3:01:49
  adventure serial you can imagine, Flash Gordon, Dander,
• 3:01:52
  Tarzan, etcetera. Love the genuine conflict
• 3:01:55
  between the TARDIS crew arguing over the strategy for dealing
• 3:01:58
  with the Dalek menace, Ian and Barbara having their first tiff
• 3:02:01
  and the initial seeds of the Doctors growth all being sold
• 3:02:04
  so. Dickson Thompson 4 episodes of
• 3:02:06
  tense, creepy, well directed drama followed by three episodes
• 3:02:09
  of hack B movie stuff with polystyrene rocks and Daleks to
• 3:02:13
  keep crashing into things. The design, however, is amazing
• 3:02:16
  and the Daleks themselves are just brilliant.
• 3:02:18
  Paul Smyce says the scenes in the Dalek city are spooky and
• 3:02:21
  sinister, but the story suffers an awful lot of padding.
• 3:02:24
  Episodes five and six are very boring.
• 3:02:27
  Tres says. Probably the worst of the
• 3:02:30
  season. It's very dragged out.
• 3:02:32
  And finally, Seihart said the Daleks were a brilliant creation
• 3:02:35
  and thank goodness they captured the imagination of a generation.
• 3:02:39
  So Gareth, yeah, your nay to the Daleks.
• 3:02:46
  Now, what I'm going to say may never get me invited on to
• 3:02:50
  another Doctor Who related podcast in my lifetime, but I've
• 3:02:54
  got to be honest about it. Like the Keys of Mariners, I
• 3:02:57
  have flip-flopped on this and I flip-flopped on this an awful
• 3:03:00
  lot, but I'm going to say to get rid of it.
• 3:03:04
  Controversial, like many of your illustrious solicitors have
• 3:03:10
  said, the thoughts themselves. I have lots and lots of problems
• 3:03:16
  with thoughts. I know there's a thing about
• 3:03:20
  sort of acting styles at the time.
• 3:03:24
  Dioni just really irritates me whenever she speaks.
• 3:03:27
  I'm afraid I have. No opinion on the matter.
• 3:03:31
  Oh, I just she seems so feckless.
• 3:03:33
  I'd almost wanting to take her. Yeah, Aladon.
• 3:03:38
  I find a bit a little stage I think in terms of some of the
• 3:03:44
  delivery and hadn't really noticed it before this watch.
• 3:03:49
  I also have problems about how the Thales ended up developing
• 3:03:52
  their trousers the way they did. I've got these.
• 3:03:55
  No issues with that at. All and then.
• 3:03:57
  And then why did Barbara suddenly decide halfway through
• 3:04:00
  she wanted a pair when she had a perfectly good pair of of
• 3:04:03
  trousers with no holes in it? Why are?
• 3:04:05
  You complaining about that? They are.
• 3:04:07
  They are trousers that are ready for action, that's all I'm
• 3:04:10
  saying. She doesn't pick any other.
• 3:04:12
  Fashion up. That's that's the thal trousers.
• 3:04:14
  That's the item. But anyway, I also have a
• 3:04:17
  problem about the the farmers. Have we forgotten to fight?
• 3:04:20
  Well, yes, you have, because otherwise you would have been in
• 3:04:23
  that place by now. I mean, it just, it just feels
• 3:04:25
  really obvious. And then, you know, they they
• 3:04:27
  go, they said that they want to go into the Dalek city to look
• 3:04:30
  for food, but seem completely surprised that the Daleks or or
• 3:04:34
  Dals or college, whatever you want to call them that, that
• 3:04:36
  they're actually they, they actually survived.
• 3:04:38
  So what did they think they were going to find in the city when
• 3:04:40
  they didn't even know anything was going to be there?
• 3:04:42
  I just. I have problems.
• 3:04:44
  With those dals, the Daleks themselves, yes, the iconic
• 3:04:49
  design, yes, they are what they are.
• 3:04:50
  Yes, they put Doctor Who on the map.
• 3:04:51
  I get that. I just feel they're a little bit
• 3:04:53
  ineffectual in this. They've taken the camera out.
• 3:04:58
  Great. Let's acknowledge that and then
• 3:05:00
  don't do anything about I mean, what what was the what was the
• 3:05:03
  point of you telling us? That's what they've done in the
• 3:05:04
  cell. You know, they've done that.
• 3:05:06
  And even the fight at the end it it, it feels like it's run out
• 3:05:09
  of steam. And what typifies this story for
• 3:05:12
  me? And the words that go repeatedly
• 3:05:16
  round my head. I can hear death knells already
• 3:05:19
  in the back of my mind with people listening to this going
• 3:05:21
  bloody hell, what's he talking about?
• 3:05:24
  Rope coming over. Oh boy, those. 3 words typify
• 3:05:28
  this story for me because that's what it feels like and is
• 3:05:31
  happening repeatedly throughout. And I've also then got to throw
• 3:05:37
  up the fact that, you know, this was a seven episode story that
• 3:05:40
  was edited down quite substantially and kind of worked
• 3:05:46
  edited down quite substantially. And if if, if, if I can accept
• 3:05:50
  that, then I'm not sure I'm that comfortable accepting the seven
• 3:05:54
  episode version. I'm controversial, but there it
• 3:05:57
  is, I think. It might just be you and me that
• 3:05:59
  thinks that, but Rod certainly doesn't agree.
• 3:06:02
  So Toby Gareth has got problem with his styles which you need
• 3:06:05
  to see a doctor about. How do you feel about the
• 3:06:09
  Daleks? Well now, everybody, Hello.
• 3:06:14
  Hello, I think the Daleks. Oh, long, long, dramatic
• 3:06:21
  pregnant pause Which? Is not an AKA the mutants in
• 3:06:24
  this house. There's only one mutants in this
• 3:06:26
  house and it's not AKA anything. But let's not belabour that
• 3:06:30
  point anymore. I think The Daleks is probably
• 3:06:37
  the weakest 7 parter in the show's history.
• 3:06:42
  But I love I. Love the seven parters.
• 3:06:48
  There's not A7 parter I do not like.
• 3:06:51
  Unfortunately for the Daleks, I like all of the other seven
• 3:06:53
  parters a lot more because I think they're all magnificent.
• 3:06:56
  There are problems with the Daleks that have been alluded
• 3:06:59
  to. I remember having read the book.
• 3:07:02
  I found the book quite a difficult read and it took me a
• 3:07:04
  few goes, but having read it, I was very much looking forward
• 3:07:07
  when I saw it to this rather the bromance that happens between
• 3:07:10
  Ian and the strapping Christus. And they have rather a lovely
• 3:07:13
  thing going on. And then you watch the episode
• 3:07:15
  of Christus is, I mean, he's just there and you think, why
• 3:07:18
  are you there? You don't even die.
• 3:07:20
  I mean, you could at least be cannon fodder.
• 3:07:22
  He's just there to sort of occasionally chip another bit in
• 3:07:26
  and Elion, who, you know, does at least die.
• 3:07:28
  We don't really know anything about him except they have that
• 3:07:30
  slight bit where he goes. Do you think we should be doing
• 3:07:33
  this? And they go, well, yeah, I think
• 3:07:34
  we should. He says, yes, I'm sorry.
• 3:07:35
  You're quite right. We should.
• 3:07:37
  Well, now you've noted that's that note, maybe made that note
• 3:07:40
  of mild caution, but we'll kill you off.
• 3:07:44
  You know, Antidus, brilliant nomenclature, by the way, I like
• 3:07:47
  that. I like their names and they have
• 3:07:49
  rather more boring names in the in the original in the original
• 3:07:53
  script. So I I like the fact that they
• 3:07:55
  give them, give them these these rather interesting names.
• 3:07:59
  Antidus is the, you know, is the grumpy, the sullen 1.
• 3:08:05
  You know, that it's, it's all they're all a bit poised apart
• 3:08:08
  from, yeah, Ganitas. Philip Bond, who's, you know,
• 3:08:11
  clearly the actor with the future and is, I think very game
• 3:08:14
  and, and very and it's a very good Juve lead.
• 3:08:16
  And it's a lovely, lively and modern performance from Philip
• 3:08:20
  Bond, who I think deserves a lot of credit for that.
• 3:08:22
  And I'll just say a quick note about Philip Bond.
• 3:08:25
  I went to a Doctor Who convention and I've got a
• 3:08:27
  wonderful T-shirt that says gay for Ganitas with a picture of
• 3:08:31
  Ganitas in the middle. And Samantha Bond somehow saw my
• 3:08:35
  picture on Twitter was so delighted by it.
• 3:08:38
  I had AI had a copy made-up and sent to her.
• 3:08:41
  So she's she's out there wearing AT shirt that says gay for my
• 3:08:43
  dad. Oh, brilliant.
• 3:08:46
  Sorry, please continue. He's very good, but he is really
• 3:08:50
  the only sort of guest character of of of any note, even though
• 3:08:53
  at the time there would have been a free son added by seeing
• 3:08:55
  the evil Sheriff of Nottingham from Robin Hood playing Temesis,
• 3:08:59
  the the leader of the Thales. That was a nice bit of, you
• 3:09:02
  know, reversal of expectation casting for those who were
• 3:09:04
  watching at the time. And and there are all sorts of
• 3:09:07
  it does go very, very B movie. Richard Richard Martin's
• 3:09:10
  direction is obviously not in the same league as as as
• 3:09:14
  Christopher Barry's. And I think the final episode
• 3:09:17
  that the, you know, the fight is is, is almost impenetrable.
• 3:09:23
  You know, it's very difficult to follow and seriously undramatic.
• 3:09:29
  But, and, and this was the one story of my four that I was
• 3:09:35
  sending through the I vacillated with literally pretty much any
• 3:09:39
  of the others I could have gone well, no, I should send the
• 3:09:42
  sensorites through for its novelty.
• 3:09:43
  I should send reign of terror through for, for for what?
• 3:09:45
  It's, you know, the progression that it makes.
• 3:09:47
  I should, I should send keys around through just because it's
• 3:09:49
  a bit more fun than silly. I should send into destruction
• 3:09:51
  through because it is at least strange and it's trying to do
• 3:09:53
  something, but I cannot escape. The three things that I will use
• 3:09:58
  to send the dialects through to try and stick to the format is
• 3:10:02
  1. The Daleks.
• 3:10:03
  My God, they just, I mean, let's stop.
• 3:10:06
  We take the Daleks for granted. The Daleks, Doctor Who would not
• 3:10:10
  exist without the Daleks, and the Daleks didn't become good.
• 3:10:13
  The Daleks arrive good and also. But what I like and what I love
• 3:10:17
  about watching this period of the show is that yeah, they're
• 3:10:19
  Daleks and they arrive good and they're that brilliant magic
• 3:10:23
  synthesis of superb design, great idea, brilliant voice.
• 3:10:27
  I mean, you know, we don't know how.
• 3:10:29
  We can't believe how lucky we are that all of those things
• 3:10:32
  they got right straight away. But they're also, they're sort
• 3:10:35
  of bit smaller than we're used to and they're a little sort of
• 3:10:38
  like malignant metal Wasps. But they also have quite sort of
• 3:10:42
  humanly dialogue as well. They talk in a way that again,
• 3:10:45
  seems slightly dissonant to us who expect the sort of modern
• 3:10:48
  dialects or, or, or the traditional dialects.
• 3:10:50
  So the fact that they're familiar and yet strange, which
• 3:10:53
  is what I love about all 60s Doctor Who, is that it is
• 3:10:57
  familiar to us because it is often the embryonic version of
• 3:11:00
  it. Even though so much arrives
• 3:11:02
  fully formed and brilliant, there are still elements of it
• 3:11:05
  that you go, oh, that's slightly, that's slightly
• 3:11:07
  dissonant for me. And Doctor Who is all about
• 3:11:09
  dissonance. Doctor Who is all about taking
• 3:11:11
  what is familiar and skewing it and making it beguilingly
• 3:11:14
  offbeat and strange. So even within Doctor Who, the
• 3:11:19
  Daleks within the very first story of the Daleks are that
• 3:11:22
  very thing that Doctor Who is number 2 and this.
• 3:11:26
  And I know I'm slightly cheating because, you know, you've chosen
• 3:11:29
  Ian and Barbara and I said, well, you could choose them for
• 3:11:31
  any story. But the sound, just that noise
• 3:11:35
  inside the Dalek city, the doc Doctor Who has never sounded
• 3:11:40
  weirder than it did in the 60s, particularly the Hartnell era,
• 3:11:44
  the alien planet noise. A city they go, well, we're in a
• 3:11:47
  city. We've got brilliant set design.
• 3:11:49
  Ray Cusick does that wonderful thing of making the doors Dalek
• 3:11:51
  shaped. Christopher Barry films it at
• 3:11:53
  slightly weird angles as well to give it a sort of
• 3:11:55
  expressionistic thing. But we'll just give it a sort of
• 3:11:57
  background noise so that you go, wow, this is a bit weird.
• 3:12:01
  Don't like it here. And to add to that, then you
• 3:12:05
  have Tristan Kerry's incidental score, which is not music as we
• 3:12:08
  know. I love Marie Goldie music, but
• 3:12:10
  you can follow along and sing along and like or Dominic Linney
• 3:12:13
  music or any of those that have got a sort of tune, you know,
• 3:12:16
  that we can sort of play in our heads or listen to fun.
• 3:12:18
  I wouldn't listen to the score of the Daleks, but fun.
• 3:12:21
  But it's weird and it's odd and it's mood and it's strange.
• 3:12:26
  And this is 1960 three 1964 and what the fuck are you doing?
• 3:12:31
  But it's amazing. It's, you know, hang on, This is
• 3:12:34
  this is, this isn't the stuff of legend now.
• 3:12:36
  This isn't a television institution.
• 3:12:38
  This isn't a cultural landmark. This is a this is a site.
• 3:12:42
  It's a science fiction escapism that's been stalled out of the
• 3:12:47
  out of the starting gate. But a lot of people aren't
• 3:12:49
  really interested in. It's going, yeah, we're going
• 3:12:51
  to, we're going to do as much as we can.
• 3:12:53
  That's really odd for this thing that's going to be shown once
• 3:12:56
  and nobody's going to remember. And God bless them for that.
• 3:12:59
  And I, I love the sound of 60s Doctor Who.
• 3:13:02
  And I think the Daleks embodies that probably as much as
• 3:13:07
  anything else to just take an innocuous location and just make
• 3:13:11
  it a little bit a little bit weird.
• 3:13:15
  And the other thing is, and I think this is probably, and This
• 3:13:18
  is why it's quite fun to change one's opinion, but also to to
• 3:13:21
  look at doctor within the context of time.
• 3:13:24
  I'm. So this is coming very much from
• 3:13:26
  Toby today, is that I'm I'm slightly irked at the moment by
• 3:13:30
  a lot of the rather sanctimonious commentary about
• 3:13:34
  Doctor Who. Whenever the characters of the
• 3:13:37
  Doctor or a companion or somebody, particularly in the
• 3:13:39
  latest episodes, do something that is morally ambiguous and
• 3:13:42
  people sort of get up in arms and go.
• 3:13:44
  But the Doctor's supposed to be a moral character who tells us,
• 3:13:48
  well, who the fuck said that? The Doctors.
• 3:13:51
  Now the Doctor is our hero. And the Doctor is, is, is
• 3:13:54
  genuinely. And and our heroes should be
• 3:13:56
  identification figures. But anybody that writes a thing
• 3:14:00
  and just goes, yeah, but our heroes, they always do the right
• 3:14:04
  thing. And this is what you should do,
• 3:14:06
  isn't a dramatist, They're a Didact.
• 3:14:08
  They're a sanctimonious preacher.
• 3:14:10
  The beautiful thing in the Daleks is that they, they turn
• 3:14:14
  some pacifists into fighters. Now I, I, I, I have arguments
• 3:14:19
  with myself about this. I remember growing up, you know,
• 3:14:21
  being very anti, the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima, for
• 3:14:24
  example, because I was an anti nuclear war.
• 3:14:27
  It's terrible and it kills people.
• 3:14:28
  But then and you think and anybody that disagrees with me I
• 3:14:31
  think is awful because I was a child and because it was very
• 3:14:35
  cut and dried morality. And of course, and then people
• 3:14:37
  go, yeah, but actually, if they hadn't done that, more people
• 3:14:39
  might have died. I still don't know where I fall
• 3:14:42
  on that. And that's that's because
• 3:14:43
  morality is a very complicated thing.
• 3:14:46
  And if you think that Doctor Who is a good show because it just
• 3:14:49
  tells you how to behave and is a prescriptive set of codes, then
• 3:14:54
  I think you're well, I, I then, then I then I think you're
• 3:14:58
  underestimating how complicated morality is and how good drama
• 3:15:02
  actually depicts complicated morality and goes, well, Ian's
• 3:15:06
  done this thing, but he's actually done it and he's saying
• 3:15:09
  he's, you know, he's empowering the 1000.
• 3:15:11
  He's actually done it for very selfish reasons.
• 3:15:13
  The reason they've done it is because they want their they
• 3:15:16
  want their fluid link back and that.
• 3:15:17
  So let me tie all of this in with the fact that the whole
• 3:15:21
  story and the fact that they have to stay there isn't because
• 3:15:24
  they're fighting evil. It's because they've they've
• 3:15:26
  left a bit of their ship behind and they have to go and get it.
• 3:15:29
  And it's, and the only reason they needed to go and get it in
• 3:15:32
  the 1st place because the doctor lied.
• 3:15:35
  Now, that's not saying the doctor is.
• 3:15:37
  I mean, he's, he's, you know, he's a complicated figure there.
• 3:15:41
  And the writers aren't going well.
• 3:15:42
  You should condemn him. And they're heroic.
• 3:15:44
  And they're not heroic. They're saying everybody's a
• 3:15:46
  little bit complicated. And to get what we want we we
• 3:15:51
  sometimes act in our self interests and we kid ourselves.
• 3:15:55
  That. What we're doing is morally
• 3:15:57
  right and and is virtuous, but everybody does that.
• 3:16:01
  The baddies do that. And if you can't see that
• 3:16:04
  there's a lot of self-interest in what you do.
• 3:16:07
  And if you only think that what you do is right and what the
• 3:16:10
  other people do is wrong, then you're not, you're, you're not,
• 3:16:13
  you're not a paragon of virtue. You're a fucking psychopath
• 3:16:17
  because you cannot see the other person's point of view.
• 3:16:20
  And the whole, when Doctor Who is at its richest and most
• 3:16:24
  intelligent, it it, it, it helped you see the point of view
• 3:16:28
  of everybody. And also you are sometimes
• 3:16:31
  uneasy with the point of view of your own characters.
• 3:16:35
  The Doctor is brilliant and fun and material and exciting and
• 3:16:38
  the best person in the universe, but is also flawed and
• 3:16:41
  complicated and difficult and sometimes has to do things they
• 3:16:45
  might not be comfortable with, but in order.
• 3:16:48
  And that's a horrible thing to say to achieve the greater good.
• 3:16:50
  But history is littered with people who thought they were
• 3:16:52
  doing the greater good, who did terrible things.
• 3:16:54
  So then we have to turn the spotlight on ourselves and our
• 3:16:57
  morality. That's not because the doctor is
• 3:17:00
  bad and or or the writer has misunderstood the message of
• 3:17:04
  Doctor Who. That's because real life is
• 3:17:06
  messy. Morality is messy, life is
• 3:17:08
  complicated and rich, interesting writing, even if
• 3:17:12
  it's in a damn dare adventure that's got a terminable chasm
• 3:17:15
  scenes and all of that. What I think anybody that looks
• 3:17:21
  for for for drama and, and I, I do think it's a problem with
• 3:17:26
  with the way that we digest stuff today is that unless
• 3:17:30
  something is basically trading in confirmation bias or, or, or
• 3:17:37
  basically saying to us, yeah, yeah, your worldview is the
• 3:17:39
  right one on your go. Well, if that's what you're
• 3:17:44
  looking for, then you're the problem.
• 3:17:46
  Because actually what we should be looking for as human beings
• 3:17:50
  is things that challenge our assumptions because sometimes
• 3:17:55
  our assumptions are wrong. And if you aren't open to that,
• 3:17:59
  then you're the problem. But it's also a sort of Bee
• 3:18:03
  movie down there adventure. Have I got to follow?
• 3:18:08
  That now but. But you know what?
• 3:18:09
  That's but. I mean, I only think that today
• 3:18:15
  I might change my mind, tomorrow Don't.
• 3:18:16
  Change. Don't change your mind, Toby.
• 3:18:18
  That was don't. Don't cancel me.
• 3:18:20
  That was. That's the point.
• 3:18:21
  That's the. .0 Crikey, I don't quite know how to follow that.
• 3:18:27
  That was a sterling effort on Mr. Haydock.
• 3:18:32
  Of course I'm going to put this through.
• 3:18:33
  I think Gareth's the diatribe against the Daleks was possibly
• 3:18:38
  the maddest thing I've heard on here, and trust me, I've
• 3:18:40
  listened to Joe for many a long episode.
• 3:18:42
  Although the. Diatribe of the Daleks would be
• 3:18:44
  a good story it. Would be very good, wouldn't it?
• 3:18:47
  It's got Steven Moffett all over at that one.
• 3:18:51
  Sorry. Moving swiftly on.
• 3:18:52
  So my first reason for keeping the dialects, which of course I
• 3:18:56
  am, is the pacing. And I'm saying this in a
• 3:18:59
  reaction to two things. So firstly, Joe and I recently
• 3:19:03
  rewatched and did a commentary on the dialects in colour edit
• 3:19:07
  which are only 75 minutes long which is way less than that.
• 3:19:10
  Half of it is paced very differently and I think loses a
• 3:19:13
  lot of the story and a lot of the character developments and
• 3:19:16
  motivations and is is much worse for it as a result.
• 3:19:20
  But as we. Talked about in that I don't
• 3:19:23
  think that is for you. No, absolutely.
• 3:19:25
  That is handing the dialects to the next generation.
• 3:19:29
  Oh. Absolutely.
• 3:19:30
  But it just proves to me again that the original in its
• 3:19:33
  original form works spectacularly well.
• 3:19:37
  Not deriding what they did, do you think?
• 3:19:40
  A5 year old now would have the patience to watch Daleks.
• 3:19:45
  Probably not. No, I will.
• 3:19:46
  They're on the side of now, I'd like to think.
• 3:19:48
  They would, but maybe one. Episode a week, you know, 25.
• 3:19:51
  Trouble is we do binge watch it, don't we?
• 3:19:53
  And that does, you know, however much we talk about it does have
• 3:19:56
  an impact. We are taking away from the fact
• 3:19:58
  that this was our you watched it once and that was if you missed
• 3:20:01
  it, you missed it. It was 25 minutes on Saturday
• 3:20:03
  afternoon and it kept you in throttle.
• 3:20:05
  I mean, Joe, I know we've had many debates about the viewing
• 3:20:08
  figures. And I know they're not the be
• 3:20:10
  all and end all, but just as a barometer, they can sometimes be
• 3:20:14
  helpful. And every episode in this seven
• 3:20:17
  episodes goes up. Now, if the pacing was that off,
• 3:20:20
  because a lot of our comment, a lot of our comments said, oh,
• 3:20:23
  the the end half is really dull, really boring.
• 3:20:25
  But actually this builds in terms of audience week after
• 3:20:29
  week after week. It doesn't suddenly start
• 3:20:30
  dropping off at four or five or six.
• 3:20:32
  It carries on building. So the audience at the time were
• 3:20:35
  coming back for it. I think it's really well paste
• 3:20:39
  for me. I think it's very well
• 3:20:40
  structured. Everyone moans about the, the,
• 3:20:42
  you know, the expedition scenes at the end, but if you're gonna
• 3:20:45
  moan that that's too long, why don't you moan the, you know,
• 3:20:47
  the prison cell scenes at the beginning go on too long.
• 3:20:50
  It's just the way it's pasted. It's the story it's telling and
• 3:20:53
  I think it works really well. You've got good set up in one,
• 3:20:57
  you've got the introduction of Daleks in two got the
• 3:20:59
  introduction of the files and three, we learn all about their
• 3:21:02
  story. 4 is really busy because you've got the escape from
• 3:21:05
  prison, you've got the ambush and then that wonderful, as
• 3:21:08
  everyone said, the realisation they've got to go back.
• 3:21:11
  Five, you've got that big pacifist debate which kind of
• 3:21:13
  takes the first half of the episode and then obviously the
• 3:21:16
  swamps. 6 yes, you've got the Chasm episode, but that's
• 3:21:21
  constantly intercut with the Daleks building up their threat.
• 3:21:25
  So the neutron bomb threat grows throughout episode 6.
• 3:21:29
  So we're not just watching rope coming over, we are also
• 3:21:33
  watching that wider threat growing and growing and growing.
• 3:21:36
  And so I think that gives 6 still some momentum building up
• 3:21:40
  and then obviously the resolution in seven.
• 3:21:42
  I think there's lots going on here.
• 3:21:44
  If you moan about the pacing and you just want a story that's all
• 3:21:47
  action, well go and watch Legend of the Sea Devils.
• 3:21:50
  Which is just and no substance so.
• 3:21:52
  But I think I'd rather watch. This the two.
• 3:21:54
  Directors Christopher Barry and Richard Martin, they don't just
• 3:21:57
  pay things so differently. So I think the Christopher
• 3:22:00
  Barry, that Episode 4, what's that called?
• 3:22:03
  The ambush, The escape, The ambush, Yeah, that goes that
• 3:22:06
  flies by that episode. They're running around, escaping
• 3:22:09
  up loads going on. Yeah.
• 3:22:12
  You come to episode 6, is that Richard Martin?
• 3:22:14
  Six is Martin. Yes, Yeah.
• 3:22:18
  We're going over. Jeez.
• 3:22:20
  No ways it's so dull. I, I think it still works for
• 3:22:26
  me. It keeps my interest, it keeps
• 3:22:28
  me going. The second reason is the sense
• 3:22:30
  of realism. Joe, you kept saying throughout
• 3:22:31
  yours, it feels real. It feels real.
• 3:22:34
  There's lots of stuff going on here in early Doctor Who,
• 3:22:36
  particularly the 1st 13 episodes that keep reminding us that Ian
• 3:22:40
  and Barbara are kind of real, normal characters thrust into
• 3:22:44
  this impossible situation. You know, in episode one we get
• 3:22:47
  quite an extended scene of them with the food machine learning
• 3:22:50
  how they're going to eat on board the TARDIS, which, you
• 3:22:53
  know, a regularly lazy criticism of a Doctor Who isn't.
• 3:22:57
  We never seen them go to the toilet.
• 3:22:58
  We don't see them eat. Well, here we are still trying
• 3:23:00
  to establish them as normal people.
• 3:23:03
  They eat, Barbara gets a headache and the Doctor gives
• 3:23:06
  her tablets to cure it. They think it's night time, so
• 3:23:09
  they say, oh, let's go to bed and get up the following morning
• 3:23:12
  to explore the city. All these kind of regular beats
• 3:23:15
  of normal life that just keep reminding us that actually these
• 3:23:18
  are, but Ian and Barbara are normal regular people that have
• 3:23:22
  suddenly just been landed in this terrible situation.
• 3:23:26
  And the other thing that I don't want to pick a fire but.
• 3:23:30
  If that is the better approach, it's sort of really sort of
• 3:23:32
  approach. And I love it, don't get me
• 3:23:34
  wrong. Why are we doing that now?
• 3:23:35
  Why do we cut straight to the chase, straight to the idea?
• 3:23:38
  Because I don't think. That would sustain 60 years.
• 3:23:40
  Do you want to see every single companion have an interaction
• 3:23:43
  with the food machine? It's just it would be coming to
• 3:23:46
  which TV is a bit of a shorthand.
• 3:23:47
  Now we know how that works. We can park that and get on with
• 3:23:51
  the story. But I think at this early stage,
• 3:23:53
  when, you know, you are still trying to bed this into a new
• 3:23:56
  audience, they might have thought, you know, if sci-fi is
• 3:23:58
  going to be whimsy, it's going to be light, entertaining.
• 3:24:01
  They're trying to say, no, these are regular people, but they're
• 3:24:04
  in this terrible situation. And I think for me, that really
• 3:24:07
  crystallizes in that you were talking about earlier that kind
• 3:24:10
  of pacifist debate in five when it's actually Barbara that's
• 3:24:15
  happy to kind of take up arms, and it's Ian that's a bit more
• 3:24:18
  resent. There's so much dialogue in
• 3:24:21
  there that is reminiscent of kind of World War Two
• 3:24:23
  conversation, World War One conversation.
• 3:24:25
  And obviously, Ian and Barbara as characters and actors would
• 3:24:28
  have lived through that time, and a lot of the audience would.
• 3:24:31
  So Ian says, are they cowards or are they just against fighting
• 3:24:34
  on principle? They're almost talking about,
• 3:24:36
  you know, conscientious objectors, deserters, all that
• 3:24:39
  kind of dialogue. We know what the darlings.
• 3:24:42
  Were right. Oh.
• 3:24:43
  Absolutely. And they're very clearly, I
• 3:24:45
  mean, they do, you know, they do the Nazi salute.
• 3:24:48
  It's very clear. But and they don't actually use
• 3:24:50
  that language. But for the audience at home,
• 3:24:53
  they can see exactly what's going on in that debate.
• 3:24:55
  And again, that's kind of brings a realism to it.
• 3:24:58
  That was right at that time, 1963.
• 3:25:00
  And, you know, maybe, you know, we've lost some of that
• 3:25:03
  obviously, as time time has gone past.
• 3:25:05
  But I think it really helps establish those characters.
• 3:25:09
  And then the last one, yeah, the design we've talked about, you
• 3:25:12
  can argue with the design of the dialects, but it's just a couple
• 3:25:14
  of other things. Toby, you talks about the city
• 3:25:16
  with the the curved doors, which I think really clever shorthand
• 3:25:19
  for saying, you know, this is not a, this is not built for
• 3:25:23
  humans. Barbara is ducking under the
• 3:25:24
  door. And one thing I will absolutely
• 3:25:26
  defend those mountain scenes on before we get to the chasm.
• 3:25:30
  But a part six is when they're walking through the chasm and
• 3:25:33
  you see them walking through and they've actually taken the time
• 3:25:36
  to kind of build the studio floor at an angle.
• 3:25:38
  So walking down the rocks in the way, you know, 1980s Doctor Who,
• 3:25:43
  for example, completely forgets and you know, look at the the
• 3:25:46
  jungle in Kinder. You see that studio floor.
• 3:25:49
  It is a flat, shiny studio floor here.
• 3:25:52
  They're trying to take that away and make you believe they are in
• 3:25:56
  a mountain pass and I think the jungle.
• 3:25:58
  There's. Water in this way isn't there,
• 3:26:00
  you know, there's oh the. Jungle's glorious.
• 3:26:02
  I mean, it's really lush and thick and alien.
• 3:26:04
  They've given a hell of a lot of thought to how this looks and I
• 3:26:07
  love it. So yeah, it's absolutely going
• 3:26:09
  through. I know.
• 3:26:10
  It's getting late. Just two last things because I
• 3:26:12
  just want to say in the middle of all of this story, I love the
• 3:26:15
  fact that it can still be very camp.
• 3:26:17
  And that's that Dalek that goes. I wonder if.
• 3:26:22
  He'd make an appearance. Radiation sickness, and I love
• 3:26:25
  that. It can be very silly as well.
• 3:26:26
  And that monster that rises up out of the lake, it's just
• 3:26:29
  fucking absurd, isn't it? But it's again, like Toby said,
• 3:26:33
  the sound effect is incredible. I I kind of.
• 3:26:36
  I'm happier with him than I am with the the plug hole spinning
• 3:26:40
  around a little bit. That's maybe less.
• 3:26:43
  But hey, do you know what? What were they working on?
• 3:26:45
  Top and top and tape? Nate.
• 3:26:47
  Yeah, the. Bit where the.
• 3:26:48
  Dalek swings round and blasts the wall and it blisters.
• 3:26:52
  I think there's some pretty good effects in it.
• 3:26:54
  And I think the the Dalek city, the Skyrim city looks
• 3:26:56
  spectacular. I think they they made it.
• 3:26:58
  Yeah. The model work is really good,
• 3:27:00
  really clever. So yeah, it's definitely going
• 3:27:03
  through. So we're on to our sorry.
• 3:27:04
  Gareth. It was a bold attempt.
• 3:27:08
  It was a bold attempt. Badge for badge for trying.
• 3:27:12
  I'll take that. So we come to the last story,
• 3:27:15
  Edge of Destruction. Thanks guys for leaving me with
• 3:27:17
  this one. But I love the edge of
• 3:27:20
  Destruction and I am putting it through.
• 3:27:24
  Look, Doctor Who's a series of extremes.
• 3:27:26
  One minute it's sci-fi, next minute it's fancy, one minute
• 3:27:30
  it's serious drama, next minute it's full on camp, isn't it?
• 3:27:33
  And I think this, this story exemplifies those two extremes
• 3:27:38
  probably more than any other. Because in 50 minutes we go from
• 3:27:42
  what is possibly the weirdest, oddest, most unnerving,
• 3:27:45
  unsettling psychological set up, and then we end up with the most
• 3:27:50
  parochial resolution you could possibly get that the button is
• 3:27:54
  stuck and there's a button with fast return written in felt tip
• 3:27:58
  on the console. You go from those two extremes.
• 3:28:01
  Only Doctor Who can do that, but there are a lot more other types
• 3:28:06
  of extreme in this story. So I think Susan's predilection
• 3:28:10
  for scissors is really quite extreme for this period.
• 3:28:14
  The way she holds scissors when confronted by Ian and then she
• 3:28:17
  starts slashing up the sofa. I mean, that is quite violent.
• 3:28:21
  It's quite, quite visceral the way she's she's slashing through
• 3:28:24
  that. Imagine if Leela had knifed
• 3:28:27
  people with quite the ferocity that Carol Ann Ford attacks that
• 3:28:31
  sofa. Mary White House would have been
• 3:28:32
  right about complaining. So I think I was really quite
• 3:28:36
  extreme. And whilst we're talking about
• 3:28:37
  Susan, for me, I think Carol Anne Ford gives her best
• 3:28:41
  performance in this because again, she's going back to what
• 3:28:43
  she did in the first part of Unearthly Child.
• 3:28:45
  She's been called on to be mysterious and odd and unnerving
• 3:28:49
  and I think she works really well here.
• 3:28:51
  Yes, we do have a few moments of histrionics and screaming, but
• 3:28:56
  some of that unsettling stuff is works really well.
• 3:28:59
  And I think she she's got that kind of air of unusualness about
• 3:29:02
  her that works. Arnold is also, he's fucking
• 3:29:06
  scary in this that moment when he drugs them and then he goes
• 3:29:10
  in to check that Ian and Barbara asleep.
• 3:29:12
  And then he kind of waddles away into the control room, chucking
• 3:29:15
  to himself. It's really dark because of
• 3:29:18
  course, at that stage we don't really know the doctor properly.
• 3:29:21
  And that is a really dark moment for him.
• 3:29:23
  So Extremes is my first one. The second one is Barbara again,
• 3:29:29
  I think I've raised Barbara on nearly everything because she's
• 3:29:32
  she's wonderful. Yes, there's so much talked
• 3:29:34
  about that scene where she turns on the Doctor and you know, you
• 3:29:38
  should ought to go down on your hands and knees and thank us.
• 3:29:41
  I mean, she absolutely tears him a new one, doesn't she?
• 3:29:45
  But equally, it's Barbara that applies herself.
• 3:29:47
  She's the one that works out what's going on.
• 3:29:49
  But the scene, I think that's really important, just shows how
• 3:29:52
  intrinsic Barbara is, is at the end.
• 3:29:56
  So at the end, we're going to do a typical TV ending that we're
• 3:29:59
  all going to forgive and forget to move on.
• 3:30:01
  And Ian's happily is in that situation.
• 3:30:04
  He's going to shake hands with the Doctor and move on.
• 3:30:06
  But Barbara isn't. She just walks off and it's up
• 3:30:09
  to the Doctor to swallow his pride and go and find Barbara
• 3:30:13
  and apologize to her. And that really makes her
• 3:30:16
  probably out of that quartet, she is the most powerful
• 3:30:20
  character there. It's only because she then turns
• 3:30:23
  around and gives some softness to the Doctor make up.
• 3:30:26
  I mean, she's just established as the core of that team.
• 3:30:30
  And I think that stays true, stays true, right the way
• 3:30:33
  through to the end of her appearance.
• 3:30:35
  And then finally, yes, it's cropped up again.
• 3:30:37
  The balls to do this. I mean, we were what, 11
• 3:30:41
  episodes into a new series this stage.
• 3:30:44
  They had to do a bottle episode for whatever reason, whether it
• 3:30:47
  was cost saving, whether it's because the sets of Marco Polo
• 3:30:50
  weren't ready, whether it's because they were fulfilling
• 3:30:52
  that 13 episode run, whatever. The truth behind those many
• 3:30:56
  versions of the story is they had two episodes and they could
• 3:30:59
  have done quite a, you know, quite a soft, gentle two-part
• 3:31:03
  bottle episode. But they have had the balls to
• 3:31:06
  think, let's go really crazy with this.
• 3:31:10
  The audience aren't settled into this show yet.
• 3:31:12
  And yet they've got the cheek and the the nerve to do
• 3:31:16
  something really as psychologically disturbing as
• 3:31:19
  this. And I think it's a tremendously
• 3:31:21
  brave decision. And I'm Verity Lambertson and
• 3:31:24
  the team are really pushing everything they can to make this
• 3:31:28
  a very memorable show. And I love it.
• 3:31:30
  So yeah, Edge of Destruction is absolutely going through.
• 3:31:35
  Should we go to our final set of comments?
• 3:31:38
  David Gillespie Pratt says. Well, that was fucking weird.
• 3:31:41
  Thai, claustrophobic, intense. Huge credit to Jacqueline Hill.
• 3:31:45
  Barbara nailing the Doctor for his behaviour was long overdue.
• 3:31:49
  James H loved the premise of the Doctor knowing bugger all about
• 3:31:52
  the TARDIS ditch next season and Barbara absolutely shines.
• 3:31:56
  It's 50 minutes of telepathic circuits having a meltdown and
• 3:32:00
  taking it out on the parasites in the TV.
• 3:32:03
  But keep the target version. Sean Arnold said you couldn't do
• 3:32:06
  this at any other time. The TARDIS isn't established as
• 3:32:09
  a place of safety yet, so it's still deeply unsettling, with
• 3:32:12
  the fragile trust between the crew easily broken.
• 3:32:15
  Gary. Russell.
• 3:32:16
  A marvellous stage play that occurs at exactly the right
• 3:32:19
  time. Jason.
• 3:32:20
  Thompson says both a quick filler episode and a pivotal
• 3:32:23
  moment in the characters relationships.
• 3:32:25
  Barbara tearing into the Doctor is one of the most powerful
• 3:32:28
  moments in the entire series, and their reconciliation at the
• 3:32:31
  end is lovely. Darren lit Randall's bless it,
• 3:32:34
  but it's nonsense plot wise. It's all about the characters.
• 3:32:38
  The doctor apologizing to Barbara is a highlight.
• 3:32:40
  It's atmospheric, but you know the directors didn't know what
• 3:32:43
  they were doing with it. Mentioning no names of the guy
• 3:32:45
  on part one especially. Andy Parkinson said weird and
• 3:32:49
  disconcerting. It's a good example of when
• 3:32:51
  Doctor Who writers think outside the box.
• 3:32:53
  Failed by the resolution of a broken switch, but otherwise a
• 3:32:56
  great character piece the. Orange Michael will show some of
• 3:33:00
  the more creative Doctor Who comes from the show when the
• 3:33:03
  show has big limitations placed on it.
• 3:33:05
  All four leads are wonderful and the story is perfectly
• 3:33:08
  unnerving. Everybody loves this.
• 3:33:10
  Well, Dave Rennie, maybe less so.
• 3:33:12
  A load of waffle, he said. It's trying to be clever and has
• 3:33:15
  some great imagery, but it just makes no sense.
• 3:33:18
  The Barbara Dr. and speech at the console moments are
• 3:33:21
  stunning, but the story is just really dull.
• 3:33:23
  Bennett, you spoke too soon, Joe Daniel.
• 3:33:26
  Knight Either overblown filler or psychological thriller with
• 3:33:29
  brilliant character moments. It makes little sense, but
• 3:33:32
  Jacqueline Hill is brilliant. Jacoius demonstrates the foibles
• 3:33:36
  of its character and ultimately strengthens their bombs because
• 3:33:41
  of his status of scripture. There's a David Whitaker's
• 3:33:43
  expansion of these characters is critical, not just a cheap stop
• 3:33:47
  gap. Also, this is the first sideways
• 3:33:49
  story, opening up a new realm of possibilities.
• 3:33:52
  Indeed, anything that dares to push Doctor Who beyond this
• 3:33:54
  mandate has this to thank for trying something new, Michael.
• 3:33:58
  Storm essentially a stage play on TV with Whitaker channelling
• 3:34:01
  his inner Beckett. However, the acting is a bit
• 3:34:04
  ropey in the opening scenes and what should have been a surreal
• 3:34:07
  scene of clocks melting is reduced to an OTT reaction.
• 3:34:11
  The unclear cutaways of The Curse of Richard Martin makes
• 3:34:14
  his first notable appearance. The Doctor finally gets the good
• 3:34:17
  talking to he deserves and emerges as the character we
• 3:34:21
  know, John. Ben Salia says.
• 3:34:23
  I still don't get it. This may be because I've got
• 3:34:25
  shit for brains. Bit too stagey.
• 3:34:30
  Bit too stagey and abstract for my liking.
• 3:34:32
  Some priceless Billy fluffs too sweet in the pill though.
• 3:34:36
  The pronouncement Comet Paul smye Very odd story.
• 3:34:39
  Not a favorite and. Finally, Alice J ends with the
• 3:34:43
  TARDIS team all reconciling and becoming friends.
• 3:34:45
  I love that, Toby. Do you love it?
• 3:34:49
  Oh. There's Look, there's much to
• 3:34:50
  recommend this Doctor Who is all about success born out of
• 3:34:56
  necessity. Doctor Who is full of stories
• 3:34:59
  that are more than a sum of their parts.
• 3:35:01
  Or if you described what the plot was, you know, yet Yeti in
• 3:35:05
  the caves with web, you know, Cybermen on a spaceship waiting.
• 3:35:12
  You know, the plot of Earth. I'm not even going to.
• 3:35:14
  Yeah, So many that if you just said the plot, you go, well,
• 3:35:16
  that's just crap. But are actually amongst the
• 3:35:18
  very best Doctor Who stories because they are so brilliantly
• 3:35:21
  done. So you know, you, you, you
• 3:35:24
  Doctor Who is often more than the sum of its parts.
• 3:35:27
  This is an important sort of coder to, you know, to that
• 3:35:30
  first sort of block of production, really of the, you
• 3:35:34
  know, and of the first complete run of of Doctor Who that we
• 3:35:37
  have before before it before the 1st missing episode, which seems
• 3:35:41
  to sort of cap off a lot of the the character dynamics that that
• 3:35:47
  are in flux that kind of resolve themselves after this sort of
• 3:35:51
  big blow up after the sort of psychological, you know,
• 3:35:55
  mindfuck evening they all have together in the TARDIS.
• 3:36:01
  It has some lovely moments of direction.
• 3:36:03
  Frank Cox in episode 2 when the doctors doing his monologue
• 3:36:07
  against the against the console as the explosions rock quicker
• 3:36:12
  and quicker and the lighting does what it does and it's it's
• 3:36:15
  really strange and odd, but it's also got a great sense of pace
• 3:36:18
  and and and and everything to it in, in these days where, you
• 3:36:22
  know, I mean, when we had a period of doctor where we had a
• 3:36:25
  different incidental musician every story.
• 3:36:29
  So each story had its its flavour now.
• 3:36:32
  Now we have one instant musician in order to give some sort of
• 3:36:36
  uniformity. But but back in the day,
• 3:36:40
  sometimes to save money, you didn't even.
• 3:36:42
  And I love Murray Gold and I love the fact that Doc two has
• 3:36:44
  different scores in the 60s and 70s story by story, six 70s.
• 3:36:48
  But now with certain stories like this, you have a different
• 3:36:52
  incidental musician within a story because they just have to
• 3:36:55
  get what's off the shelf. And it has one of my favorite
• 3:36:58
  pieces of stock music, which is called anaesthesia.
• 3:37:00
  It's the one that goes. Oh yeah, it's.
• 3:37:03
  Also the the lunar surface and it's in the war machines as
• 3:37:06
  well. And I, and I love the fact that
• 3:37:08
  different actors, you know, scour the shelves and go, oh, I
• 3:37:10
  like this piece of, and yet they somehow all fit together in our
• 3:37:13
  uniform, even though they're done by different composers and
• 3:37:16
  for different moods. And sometimes they used in .2
• 3:37:18
  not for the moods, clearly, Probably the, the, the, the,
• 3:37:21
  the, the composer envisaged for them.
• 3:37:23
  So there's all sorts of wonderful stuff to do.
• 3:37:25
  It's, it's a bold thing to do to go, well, let's just get our
• 3:37:28
  four characters and put them in this really strange
• 3:37:31
  psychological weirdness. And I, I vacillate with this
• 3:37:35
  one. When I, when I first got it, I
• 3:37:37
  just thought it was a bit disposable and not that much.
• 3:37:39
  I like it when Doctor Who goes to different environments, meets
• 3:37:43
  new characters. I'm, you know, guest actor
• 3:37:45
  Waller and I so I like, I like meeting new characters and new
• 3:37:48
  situations and, and, and new people because you sort of know
• 3:37:52
  that the regulars are going to be pretty safe.
• 3:37:55
  And then when I did it for running through corridors where
• 3:37:59
  it was my first attempt to be really positive about
• 3:38:01
  everything, I thought it was utterly absurd and ludicrous and
• 3:38:05
  pointless. And then when I did it recently
• 3:38:09
  for my Too Much Information podcast and I had to sort of
• 3:38:11
  boil it down to its constituents, I actually thought
• 3:38:14
  it was rather admirable. And, and especially that idea
• 3:38:17
  that there's a, there's an unknowable, opaque threat from
• 3:38:21
  outside, but what is something getting in or is the threat
• 3:38:24
  within ourselves? Is it some sort of psychological
• 3:38:27
  weirdness that we're being put through?
• 3:38:30
  And I think all of that is done really well.
• 3:38:32
  And that plays to the strengths of I think Caroline Ford
• 3:38:35
  particularly doesn't play to Williams Russell strength, who I
• 3:38:37
  think occasionally does the whole thing as a drunk vicar.
• 3:38:41
  And, and, and, and it's not the sort of lawless performance
• 3:38:46
  piece you would hope for. Jacqueline Hill, though, is
• 3:38:48
  magnificent. That speech that that argument
• 3:38:50
  that we've talked that that's already been brought up is, is,
• 3:38:53
  is rightly lauded, but it's about a stuck button And, and at
• 3:39:00
  the end of the day, I had to choose four and four.
• 3:39:03
  And for all of those good things that I'm I am kind of sort of,
• 3:39:07
  you know, I'm stretching for a little bit.
• 3:39:11
  I think at times you know, if the TARDIS has got the
• 3:39:17
  wherewithal to show them, you know, the destruction of a
• 3:39:20
  universe or the, the, you know, the exploding of a planet and,
• 3:39:24
  and it's and it's got the wherewithal to melt a clock.
• 3:39:26
  I don't think all the wherewithal just to put on the
• 3:39:28
  screen, get some WD40 on the spring.
• 3:39:36
  Imagine having to have a whole conversation with this TARDIS.
• 3:39:39
  I mean, it's like having a conversation with Ted Rogers on
• 3:39:41
  321. He's he's basically, he's there.
• 3:39:45
  He's given you this fucking Riddle me Reese says the TARDIS.
• 3:39:49
  Why? We're about to hit a black hole.
• 3:39:51
  Yeah, but I'm not going to make it easy for you.
• 3:39:54
  Now, of course, we if we're being ungenerous, we could be
• 3:39:57
  like that about a lot of stories.
• 3:39:59
  The drama has to have a certain contrivance of situation.
• 3:40:03
  But I think this one is. Is ultimately it's too
• 3:40:07
  simplistic a story to have generated what they did.
• 3:40:11
  And it's but for what it was at the time and for the fact you'd
• 3:40:14
  only watch it once, for the fact that by the time you got to the
• 3:40:17
  end, you'd have kind of forgotten a lot of them.
• 3:40:19
  The lead up and it's all the back mood and atmosphere and
• 3:40:21
  drama, You know, it's it's absolutely beautiful and
• 3:40:24
  wonderful for the time and the context that it is in.
• 3:40:28
  But as a lasting piece of Doctor Who, the sort of treasure and to
• 3:40:32
  keep out of the bin under the circumstances where I've chosen
• 3:40:35
  to keep for lose, for I am binning, I'm tipping it over the
• 3:40:41
  edge of destruction. I'm kicking it off the brink of
• 3:40:44
  disaster. Which, by the way, are both
• 3:40:46
  exactly the same thing. So you lose points for calling
• 3:40:48
  both of your episodes the same thing, but with different
• 3:40:50
  phraseology. So I'll take it from the
• 3:40:53
  precipice of the apocalypse and I will, I will tip it into the
• 3:40:58
  bin of actuality and which I'll then kick beyond the sun.
• 3:41:04
  What's strange, you know, is the next time we do this sort of
• 3:41:07
  thing, this sort of weird sideways adventure in Season 2,
• 3:41:10
  it's exactly the same thing again, isn't it?
• 3:41:12
  He comes out the TARDIS at the end of the Space Museum and goes
• 3:41:14
  this, this spring got stuck, you know, that's why we ended up in
• 3:41:18
  two different time periods. It's very lazy, but that.
• 3:41:21
  But actually, that's also kind of glorious because Doctor Who
• 3:41:23
  is the clash of the mundane and the spectacular and in a way go,
• 3:41:27
  well, it's just a broken spring. Depends how forgiven your
• 3:41:30
  feeling though is. Gareth, I think most of the
• 3:41:38
  stuff that I've actually got on here we've we've we've covered
• 3:41:40
  in the in the previous bits. The one of the key things for me
• 3:41:44
  is the fact that it's two parts, which obviously you know, we've
• 3:41:48
  talked at length about the length of some of the episodes
• 3:41:52
  and it is entirely set in the TARDIS, which is something that
• 3:41:56
  even Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS couldn't do.
• 3:42:00
  And the fact that it sustains itself over two episodes is
• 3:42:03
  actually quite good. I do take the point about the
• 3:42:06
  spring, but would highlight the fact that actually the fault
• 3:42:08
  machine might be the thing at fault.
• 3:42:10
  If you've got an entire wall that's dedicated to finding the
• 3:42:12
  spring that doesn't work, you know there's no wonder the poor
• 3:42:15
  TARDIS is going do Lally at melting clocks and fucking.
• 3:42:18
  Enormous, that machine it's. Like, you know, how much did you
• 3:42:20
  pay for that? I don't know, but this is
• 3:42:24
  really. A fornicator, not a fornicator
• 3:42:26
  was right all along. Barbara is the absolute star of
• 3:42:31
  this. She's the one that pieces it all
• 3:42:32
  together. I've got, I've got drunk Susan
• 3:42:36
  on here before all the and suspicious and accusatory Dr.
• 3:42:39
  all the stuff we've talked about from the regulars.
• 3:42:41
  The only other thing that I'm going to put in here as well is
• 3:42:45
  the hand gesture from Hartnell of going over the console.
• 3:42:48
  Once he's drugged them all the way, he sort of flutters his
• 3:42:50
  hand over. I can't go to a grocer's anymore
• 3:42:53
  now without going over the fruit like that.
• 3:42:56
  So for all those factors, it's a keeper from me.
• 3:42:59
  Fabulous Joe, you have the deciding vote.
• 3:43:02
  Wow. There's trouble with Rod Guide.
• 3:43:04
  First is he always picks all the best bits.
• 3:43:06
  We're left with the scraps. Yeah.
• 3:43:10
  Basically, I've written down everything you've said, Rod.
• 3:43:13
  I actually love Susan and the scissors.
• 3:43:15
  I think it's it's less when she's hysterically punching that
• 3:43:19
  chair and it's more when she goes free in his hand that she
• 3:43:23
  feels really dangerous. And it's just one of those
• 3:43:25
  things that I just don't think she'd ever be in Doctor Who.
• 3:43:27
  So I absolutely applaud the fact that it's there very to Lambert
• 3:43:31
  was right. We have her.
• 3:43:33
  Was she told off for that? Not hurt that did somebody.
• 3:43:37
  Wrap her knuckles, I. Thought she got her knuckles
• 3:43:38
  wrapped a bit, wouldn't she? Because it was a real object
• 3:43:40
  that she'd put in and they didn't like the fact it was a
• 3:43:43
  real object. Something.
• 3:43:44
  Imitable wasn't it? Yeah, Barbara.
• 3:43:47
  Accusing the doctor. I love all of that.
• 3:43:49
  I really love the line when they're sitting down at the end
• 3:43:51
  and she just goes, what do you care what I think?
• 3:43:54
  You know? And I like, you're right.
• 3:43:56
  Barbara's Jacqueline Hill is running all of those scenes and
• 3:43:59
  she is magnificent. I mean, that's one thing we can
• 3:44:03
  all agree on in this episode, isn't it?
• 3:44:04
  Is that we just think Jacqueline Hill is a goddess?
• 3:44:09
  And I kind of quite like the TARDIS, trying to explain what's
• 3:44:12
  going on through a series of bizarre images, because it
• 3:44:14
  really does stress the the alien nature of the TARDIS.
• 3:44:19
  It's certainly more interesting than turning from her from
• 3:44:21
  Coronation Street and having her turn up in The Doctor's Wife.
• 3:44:26
  And the. Great love affair that occurred
• 3:44:28
  after that the big. Red button.
• 3:44:30
  Bouncing in in Journey to the Center of the TARDIS.
• 3:44:32
  Yeah. Do you know what?
• 3:44:33
  I, I this isn't what I'd ever really choose to watch, but I
• 3:44:36
  did a commentary with Jack Coyer on this one, Such a smart kid,
• 3:44:40
  and he was giving it all of these very smart readings that
• 3:44:43
  I've never seen before. It's a very good character
• 3:44:45
  piece. It's a very sly mystery, but at
• 3:44:51
  two episodes, it's not really terribly offensive.
• 3:44:53
  So let's put it through. Fantastic.
• 3:44:56
  So goes through gentlemen. We have got to the end of round
• 3:45:00
  one. Hallelujah.
• 3:45:03
  We. Come to round two, we've got 5
• 3:45:05
  storeys left, an Earthly child, Daleks, Edge of Destruction,
• 3:45:08
  Marco Polo and the Aztecs. So let us spin that wheel of
• 3:45:13
  fortune and we have. Hang on.
• 3:45:16
  Cue the camp suspense music. Cue the camp.
• 3:45:18
  Music and we have the edge of destruction against the Daleks,
• 3:45:25
  always. The Daleks, sure.
• 3:45:28
  Toby, I think this will be no surprise, but let's go to you,
• 3:45:32
  Toby. Well.
• 3:45:32
  No, I mean I. I mean, I, you know, I'm, I'm,
• 3:45:35
  I'm happy with all the advocacy of the edge of destruction.
• 3:45:38
  And I, I, I, I and I on another day I would have happily LED it
• 3:45:42
  through. But, and in fact, after
• 3:45:44
  listening to the arguments we've just had, I'm almost kind of
• 3:45:47
  down and much more of an edge of destruction move than metallics.
• 3:45:50
  But I just think, but nothing else.
• 3:45:54
  Doctor Who is, is a vast program that means so much to us.
• 3:46:00
  And I don't think it would, you know, and it has its historical
• 3:46:04
  milestones. So if for nothing else, I think
• 3:46:07
  the Daleks has to beat the edge of the stretch there, because if
• 3:46:10
  it had all been stories set with with, you know, with the TARDIS
• 3:46:13
  melting clocks. A bit weird.
• 3:46:16
  I, I don't, I don't think we'd be here.
• 3:46:18
  Today. So it's two for Daleks.
• 3:46:21
  Gareth, this will be interesting.
• 3:46:23
  Ed, you used your crew. Oh.
• 3:46:26
  I've got to go for the dialects, haven't I?
• 3:46:28
  I like the edge of destruction, but come on, it's the flipping
• 3:46:31
  dialects. And then so edge of Destruction
• 3:46:34
  unfortunately is the first to four going by that.
• 3:46:38
  Logic. That Toby just said there the
• 3:46:40
  dialects, that's the reason why we're all here.
• 3:46:42
  So it's the dialects fault. We're all going to bed at half
• 3:46:45
  11 tonight, is it I think. The dialects got a lot more to
• 3:46:48
  blame than just that. Than that evil.
• 3:46:51
  And we have Marco Polo up against the Daleks.
• 3:46:56
  Well, I'm going to go first on that because Marco Polo stinks.
• 3:47:00
  So it's the Daleks for me. Madman Marco Polo is the best
• 3:47:05
  story of the season is going through for me.
• 3:47:08
  Trusting Toby Marco. Polo.
• 3:47:12
  Yeah. Marco Polo.
• 3:47:13
  Gareth. Marco Polo, OH.
• 3:47:15
  My goodness of the Daleks falls everything we've just said about
• 3:47:19
  it glorying its. Status.
• 3:47:21
  Was the most important doctor, that's why I said.
• 3:47:24
  Earlier about O2 fans being so fucking fickle, it's dropped.
• 3:47:28
  So we're left with on Earthly Child, Marco Polo and the
• 3:47:30
  Aztecs. So we have the Aztecs against
• 3:47:37
  Marco Polo. Well, I'm going Aztecs.
• 3:47:41
  I think it's the best of the season to make Where's the?
• 3:47:43
  Best two the only. Thing I will say is Aztecs has a
• 3:47:47
  better, smarter story than a long travelogue.
• 3:47:51
  Not that I'm trying to buy us or you know.
• 3:47:54
  Every. Favor anywhere, but it's far,
• 3:47:56
  far smarter, Gareth. Will you go next please, because
• 3:47:58
  I can't choose Aztecs, Toby. Marco Polo, OH. 2/1.
• 3:48:10
  The. Aztecs 3.
• 3:48:13
  Marco Polo, It's. Really, really close.
• 3:48:15
  But if I was going to go and put something on now, what's any
• 3:48:20
  four episodes for itself? No, it's brilliant.
• 3:48:23
  The Aztecs is brilliant. It.
• 3:48:25
  Is so we are left with an unearthly child or the Aztecs Oh
• 3:48:30
  my goodness, Obi, we're going to come to you first.
• 3:48:33
  It's. Really hard because I think the
• 3:48:38
  first episode of Unearthly Child is.
• 3:48:41
  Lawless, but I. Think if it was a if it was a
• 3:48:44
  story off between The Cave people story and the Aztec
• 3:48:48
  people story. The Aztec people story is
• 3:48:51
  better, but it's so easy to take for granted.
• 3:48:57
  How fucking? Good that first episode is and
• 3:49:02
  and I think The Cave people story isn't as isn't as much of
• 3:49:07
  a mistake as the people who made it think.
• 3:49:11
  And it is often described as because it's not in the same
• 3:49:15
  league as that very first episode.
• 3:49:16
  But nothing would be. So I'm going to go for An
• 3:49:19
  Unearthly Child, much as I love the Aztecs.
• 3:49:21
  Interesting Gareth, this is. This is really difficult because
• 3:49:26
  this is my second and third ever Hartnell.
• 3:49:29
  As soon as I got the Aztecs, I went to go and buy An Unearthly
• 3:49:31
  Child next. I think if I was going to put
• 3:49:37
  something on at the two and watch it from start to finish, I
• 3:49:42
  would probably be slightly more satisfied with the Aztecs as as
• 3:49:47
  a tail that gives me all the regulars all equal measure.
• 3:49:52
  I'm going. Aztecs, Joe Going.
• 3:49:55
  To come to you one apiece. See.
• 3:49:59
  Human. Sacrifices, their tradition,
• 3:50:01
  their religion. There's nothing we can do about
• 3:50:04
  it. Of course.
• 3:50:05
  It's the Aztecs. I, I think an earthly child and
• 3:50:09
  and the three after. I think it's a great story, but
• 3:50:12
  it's a sophisticated script. It's got brilliant direction.
• 3:50:15
  It's some of the best performances you're ever going
• 3:50:17
  to see in Doctor Who. Some of the most beautiful
• 3:50:19
  dialogue you're ever going to hear.
• 3:50:21
  The Aztecs, OK. So if on earthly child, I like
• 3:50:27
  two to four of on earthly child, because I defended that.
• 3:50:30
  I think there's a lot of very good stuff in there, very good
• 3:50:33
  indeed. If you were to hive off part one
• 3:50:36
  and have that separate two to four, which I'd still enjoy, I
• 3:50:41
  think it would be an almost impossible task.
• 3:50:45
  But the Aztecs, I said as a whole, as four parts for me is
• 3:50:49
  probably the best story of the season.
• 3:50:52
  I think it's got to be the Aztecs.
• 3:50:54
  So the Aztecs gentleman is our winner, just to throw in.
• 3:50:57
  A quick curveball. Had it just been an unearthing
• 3:51:02
  Charles, what direction would you have gone?
• 3:51:06
  Gareth if we're. Looking at an earthly child on
• 3:51:11
  its own, in isolation, Probably on an earthly child, Terry.
• 3:51:14
  Ray. It's, I mean Doctor Who has got
• 3:51:23
  downhill after day. What doctor?
• 3:51:26
  Doctor, Doctor. Who?
• 3:51:29
  Looking like a true fan. Never been the same I.
• 3:51:32
  Mean it's no, it's I just. Don't.
• 3:51:37
  Just I don't just think it's nostalgia because often, you
• 3:51:41
  know, series that I love take a while to find their feet.
• 3:51:45
  The absolute miracle of Doctor Who amongst many is that that
• 3:51:50
  first episode is absolutely faultless.
• 3:51:55
  It not just in how it introduces itself in the mystique that it
• 3:51:59
  has. Now, some of the mystique it has
• 3:52:00
  is because it's the first episode of Doctor Who.
• 3:52:02
  But we could be having to sort of force ourselves to go, yeah,
• 3:52:06
  well, you know, of course they were going to get a bit better
• 3:52:08
  later, but this is still a bit special because it is the first.
• 3:52:11
  No, it's special because it's really good.
• 3:52:13
  And what I, we are so lucky that we don't have to pretend to like
• 3:52:19
  the first bit sort of go, well, they were trying their best.
• 3:52:22
  They've got it, they fucking nailed it, and they're all
• 3:52:26
  brilliant. I love everybody who made that
• 3:52:29
  episode and contributed to it. I don't think that anyone puts a
• 3:52:34
  foot wrong. And even though I'm familiar
• 3:52:35
  with it, it's still also a bit weird and strange because this
• 3:52:39
  is something about it. Like the way the music carries
• 3:52:42
  on into the action, you know, like the way that the TARDIS
• 3:52:45
  materialization goes on forever and suddenly features the title
• 3:52:48
  sequence. You know all those bits.
• 3:52:50
  Weird bit of. You know, as I can pull away
• 3:52:53
  from London, from London, Yeah, it's I every time I watch that I
• 3:53:01
  come away going. That's how I am.
• 3:53:03
  And I watch it every November the 23rd at, you know, at the
• 3:53:07
  right time point. Tower.
• 3:53:09
  And, and, and I feel, and I just go.
• 3:53:12
  I'm not an idiot for liking this.
• 3:53:14
  It's really fucking good. Oh, I love it.
• 3:53:18
  Love it. Does that mean you would have
• 3:53:19
  chosen that episode? No, no, I absolutely would.
• 3:53:24
  Yes, I would have. I well, I mean, I chose it
• 3:53:26
  anyway. But yeah, I would, I would
• 3:53:28
  definitely choose, choose that sole episode as the as the, you
• 3:53:33
  know. It would be.
• 3:53:34
  It would be stiff competition to beat it with with anything to be
• 3:53:37
  honest. I.
• 3:53:38
  I agree. I think I said in my spare, I
• 3:53:40
  think it's the 25, the most perfect 25 minutes of Doctor
• 3:53:45
  Who. It's just like you, Toby, the
• 3:53:47
  first time I saw It's Five Faces of Doctor Who in 1981 and just
• 3:53:51
  could not believe the quality. I mean, it's just quality is the
• 3:53:56
  only word I can use in every single element from acting, from
• 3:54:00
  writing to direction. It's just it's spectacular.
• 3:54:04
  I just can't believe how lucky we were that that was our
• 3:54:07
  opening episode. So yeah, it would have won for
• 3:54:09
  me as a stand alone. I would.
• 3:54:11
  Have chosen that as well, so I'm not going to make a habit of
• 3:54:13
  this, but I'm going to suggest that the Aztecs wins this thing.
• 3:54:17
  But we fling through an unearthly chart as well as our
• 3:54:22
  bonus I. Think that's a very fair, very
• 3:54:26
  fair outcome, gentlemen. Thank you for your extended
• 3:54:31
  time, patience and fortitude. Next, next episode, Joe, we are
• 3:54:38
  going back to another first, another series slash season one.
• 3:54:42
  We are going to Christopher Eccleston's one and only season.
• 3:54:47
  So yeah, one again. But in the meantime, I, Gareth,
• 3:54:50
  Toby, is there anything you would like to point our lovely
• 3:54:54
  listeners towards or where can they find you?
• 3:54:57
  Gareth Oh, well, I'm I'm I've just had an episode come out on
• 3:55:04
  Starship pick Celsia of of stasipixelsea.com Battlestar
• 3:55:09
  Excelsior into the Underwood verse that just came out last
• 3:55:11
  week. But I've got other projects that
• 3:55:14
  I can't really talk about. I've tried canvassing.
• 3:55:16
  So what I would say is the best thing is to get any updates from
• 3:55:19
  me on Twitter at GJ Bowley. Fantastic.
• 3:55:23
  And Toby, as if. No, as if people don't know
• 3:55:26
  where to find you. But please do remind us.
• 3:55:29
  When's this going out? This is going out.
• 3:55:31
  That's a very good question. This is going out in about 7-8
• 3:55:35
  weeks time. Oh well, I'll I've already done
• 3:55:37
  the thing I'm rehearsing for then that will be done and
• 3:55:40
  dusted. So I would just say, well, I
• 3:55:42
  have a series of podcasts. Gareth has recorded a guest
• 3:55:48
  contribution, as has Joe's recorded a couple, but there to
• 3:55:52
  come and they're not out yet. It's my podcasts are called Toby
• 3:55:56
  Heydokes time travels. There's one called Happy Times
• 3:55:58
  and Places which is glowingly enthusiastic and full of sort of
• 3:56:05
  active facts that only I am interested in, an obsession with
• 3:56:08
  credits order and fonts and things like that, but that
• 3:56:12
  passes the time. There's one called Too Much
• 3:56:14
  Information, which goes into deep dives in chronological
• 3:56:17
  order. So if you've really been
• 3:56:19
  enthused by season one and you want to know on what day that
• 3:56:22
  prop was hewn, you can listen to it in excruciating detail.
• 3:56:28
  Too much information. And there's one called
• 3:56:30
  Indefinable Magic, which many people might call Waffle, but I
• 3:56:33
  describe as whimsical essays based on a subject to do with
• 3:56:39
  Doctor Who that tries to encapsulate what it is we love
• 3:56:42
  about the program, sometimes from a very personal point of
• 3:56:45
  view, and sometimes just hanging it on a subject in order to make
• 3:56:48
  some weak puns. But so if I am, if I hope I've
• 3:56:52
  sold those to you. Those are my podcasts, which can
• 3:56:56
  be found in all of the usual places.
• 3:56:58
  And I think everything else I want you'd have probably bought
• 3:57:01
  anyway. Fantastic.
• 3:57:04
  Well, thank you both gentlemen, very much indeed.
• 3:57:06
  It's been a tremendous episode. It's been wonderful.
• 3:57:10
  I mean, I've just sat here listening most of the time agog
• 3:57:13
  with your smarts as the, you know, official Michael Sheard of
• 3:57:17
  this podcast, Toby, as coined by yourself.
• 3:57:20
  I'm certainly hoping I can lure you back at some point.
• 3:57:24
  And Gareth, thank you very much for coming on today.
• 3:57:28
  I'm going to have a chat with you offline because it's very
• 3:57:31
  indulgent to start doing your scheduling during an episode,
• 3:57:34
  but I certainly hope I can entice you back at some point.
• 3:57:38
  Absolutely right. Send me a list.
• 3:57:42
  Fantastic. Thank you all very much indeed.
• 3:57:44
  And it just remains for us to say, Joe.
• 3:57:48
  Keep. Dancing.
• 3:58:06
  The. The.