Latest / I Do, Part 2 / Why We Need A Historical Drama About The Life Of Jesus Christ, And Why 300 Million People Have Already Tuned In To Watch “The Chosen”

Transcript

Why We Need A Historical Drama About The Life Of Jesus Christ, And Why 300 Million People Have Already Tuned In To Watch “The Chosen” · I Do, Part 2

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Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, Happy, Happy Easter. It is Sunday, April fifth,
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Speaker 1: and we have a very special treat for you on
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Speaker 1: this Easter edition of Amy and t J.
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Speaker 2: I miss this. This is something we used to do
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Speaker 2: regularly in our previous lives. We would make sure every
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Speaker 2: week we talked to some a faith leader of some kind.
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Speaker 3: It is just, really it's a.
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Speaker 2: Relief to be able to do this, to talk to
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Speaker 2: somebody who could give us all just a little encouragement
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Speaker 2: or a little better I don't know, some sense of
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Speaker 2: comfort and some really challenging times.
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Speaker 1: Yes, we need that now more than ever before. We
0:37
Speaker 1: have discussed about trying to revitalize a version of that
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Speaker 1: having a faith leader, and we're working on that. I
0:43
Speaker 1: want to let you know, those of you who listen
0:45
Speaker 1: to us faithfully every day or at least maybe every weekend,
0:48
Speaker 1: we are working on trying to find some one who
0:51
Speaker 1: can guide us through these tough times. So today, on
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Speaker 1: this Easter Sunday, we found someone. The creator, executive, producer, director,
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Speaker 1: and writer for Amazon Prime's wildly popular series. I don't
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Speaker 1: know if you all have heard of it. It's called
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Speaker 1: The Chosen, but three hundred million of you have watched
1:10
Speaker 1: it around the world. Were you even aware of this series? Ah?
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Speaker 2: Yes, because three hundred million around the world. I am
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Speaker 2: very attuned to pop culture and what's happening rogues.
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Speaker 1: All right, I'm so sorry I even asked you that. No,
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Speaker 1: So if you are not familiar with it, here's what
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Speaker 1: it is. It's a historical drama based on the life
1:30
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ, but it's told through the narrative, through
1:35
Speaker 1: the eyes of those who knew him. It's a really
1:37
Speaker 1: cool creative direction that has never been taken before. We've
1:42
Speaker 1: never had a series based on the life of Jesus Christ.
1:46
Speaker 1: So the man who created it all is now with us.
1:50
Speaker 1: Please everyone welcome Dallas Jenkins. Dallas, congratulations, by the way,
1:55
Speaker 1: on all of your incredible success spreading the word. Why
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Speaker 1: do you think what you've managed to pull off has
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Speaker 1: resonated so much with so many folks?
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Speaker 3: Well, I think I think the concept of me pulling
2:10
Speaker 3: it off is interesting because the show has and I
2:14
Speaker 3: hope this comes across the right way. The show has
2:17
Speaker 3: reached a level of success objectively that's far beyond my capability.
2:24
Speaker 3: Meaning I know I'm not this good, and I'm not
2:27
Speaker 3: just saying that it's not just like a platitude. I
2:30
Speaker 3: think I've made a good show. I'm proud of it,
2:32
Speaker 3: but the reach that it's had and some of the
2:36
Speaker 3: barriers it's broken down are not something that I'm quite
2:39
Speaker 3: capable of. That said, when you ask why do I
2:42
Speaker 3: think it's happened, besides, I think some just God and
2:46
Speaker 3: some other things that I can't even control. When people
2:50
Speaker 3: recognize me and want to thank me for making the show,
2:54
Speaker 3: I would say, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this,
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Speaker 3: eighty to ninety percent of them all will make make
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Speaker 3: some comment about humanity or authenticity. The Bible genre, the
3:05
Speaker 3: genre of Biblical storytelling throughout the years. But you know,
3:09
Speaker 3: movies based on stories from the Bible and Jesus have
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Speaker 3: been done for one hundred years, all the way back
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Speaker 3: to the twenties, nineteen twenties, and there's a formality to them,
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Speaker 3: a reverence that often lends itself to a distance, like
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Speaker 3: it feels like, you know, stained glass windows, even when
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Speaker 3: you're watching a movie that Jesus and the Disciples feel
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Speaker 3: like stained glass windows or statues. So there's something about
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Speaker 3: our emphasis on humanity and making, you know, kind of
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Speaker 3: reminding you of the viewer that this really happened, that
3:40
Speaker 3: these people were walking around as human beings just like
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Speaker 3: we were, that they had questions and doubts and struggles
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Speaker 3: and the normal everyday issues that we still face today.
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Speaker 3: Something about that has seemed to unlock or you know,
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Speaker 3: crack a code for people, that has kept what would
3:58
Speaker 3: normally just be a Bible story that not everyone is
4:00
Speaker 3: really into, and it makes it feel like a normal
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Speaker 3: TV show, and then by definition, makes it feel like
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Speaker 3: these were real human beings, which which doesn't always isn't
4:12
Speaker 3: always the case when you watch a Bible movie or
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Speaker 3: a Bible limited series.
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Speaker 2: Dallas, you mentioned humanity, and I want to ask humanity
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Speaker 2: versus Christianity, is this is your success or a part
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Speaker 2: of it? It do in great part. So this is
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Speaker 2: a human story and it's not just because of a
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Speaker 2: lot of Christians are following this show. I know it's
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Speaker 2: based on what it's based on, But how much of
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Speaker 2: the success is really attributed to going beyond Christianity and
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Speaker 2: hitting on humanity?
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, that's a huge thing, you know. I don't.
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Speaker 3: On one hand, you could say it's the most Christian
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Speaker 3: show ever because it's literally it's about Christ. On the
4:52
Speaker 3: other hand, well over a third of our viewers are
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Speaker 3: non believers. In fact, over half our cast and crew
4:59
Speaker 3: are not believers or traditional believers. Obviously they believe Jesus existed,
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Speaker 3: but not all of them would would believe Jesus was
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Speaker 3: God or the son of God or whatever. I think
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Speaker 3: the fact that it just it doesn't feel like a
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Speaker 3: church service. It doesn't feel like it's it's got an agenda,
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Speaker 3: because it doesn't. I'm not. I'm trying to capture the
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Speaker 3: character and intentions of Jesus and the Gospels and the
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Speaker 3: best way I can. I am, of course a believer,
5:22
Speaker 3: but I don't sit down and write or direct the
5:24
Speaker 3: show thinking, you know, how do I bring people to church?
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Speaker 3: How do I convert people? It's it's how do I
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Speaker 3: capture this story as best I can? And then the
5:32
Speaker 3: rest will take care of itself and the viewer is
5:35
Speaker 3: left to to to respond how they want. And and
5:39
Speaker 3: you know, there are plenty of stories that I watch
5:42
Speaker 3: movies and TV shows that I don't necessarily agree with
5:45
Speaker 3: or believe the worldview of the creator of the show
5:48
Speaker 3: or the movie, But I still am enjoying the world
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Speaker 3: that's been created. You know my big fat Greek wedding
5:54
Speaker 3: Shindler's list. You know, I don't watch those movies going oh,
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Speaker 3: those aren't for me. They're from a different faith tradition,
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Speaker 3: or a different religion or whatever it is, or a
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Speaker 3: different culture. I'm still able to really appreciate it, and
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Speaker 3: I think that's been a huge part of the show.
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Speaker 4: That's cool.
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Speaker 1: I mean, this is described as a historical drama based
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Speaker 1: on the life of Jesus Christ as seen through or
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Speaker 1: experienced by the people who knew him. And congratulations by
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Speaker 1: the way, on the sixth season, So that's incredibly cool.
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Speaker 1: Three hundred million plus viewers, and you point out that
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Speaker 1: not all of them are necessarily of faith or believers
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Speaker 1: in the traditional sense.
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Speaker 4: Who is this show for?
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Speaker 3: So again, I'm not trying to be cheeky with the
6:38
Speaker 3: answer to this question, but when I'm writing with my
6:41
Speaker 3: co writers or when we're directing, I'm not thinking about
6:45
Speaker 3: the viewer per se. Now, of course, as a filmmaker,
6:48
Speaker 3: you always want your work to be seen, you want
6:50
Speaker 3: it to be understood, So there's obviously traditional storytelling techniques
6:54
Speaker 3: that are meant for the viewer. But I'm not trying
6:58
Speaker 3: to think, well, well, this will us offend somebody, or
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Speaker 3: can I gain more praise with this choice or avoid
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Speaker 3: criticism with this choice? That would cripple me, especially when
7:06
Speaker 3: you're talking about the story of Jesus, which even within
7:08
Speaker 3: the Christian community is wildly there's a wildly diverse array
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Speaker 3: of opinions and feedback, So I can't write it thinking
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Speaker 3: who's most going to appreciate this? So I would argue
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Speaker 3: that it's for everybody that wants to see. You know,
7:23
Speaker 3: what I would contend is a good historical drama, and believers,
7:27
Speaker 3: of course, have a certain response to it. For a
7:29
Speaker 3: lot of them, it's a it's a confirmation of something
7:32
Speaker 3: they believe. But then maybe their eyes are opened even
7:34
Speaker 3: more to certain realizations. Like again, a lot of traditional
7:37
Speaker 3: believers will say, I've never considered X, I've never considered why.
7:41
Speaker 3: I've never thought about how the disciples would have reacted
7:44
Speaker 3: to Jesus saying this. That's really fascinating. That makes me
7:47
Speaker 3: even more passionate about what Jesus said. Then you've got
7:50
Speaker 3: non believers who watch it going, I enjoy this in
7:52
Speaker 3: the same way that I enjoy Harry Potter. I don't
7:54
Speaker 3: necessarily believe in the story itself necessarily, but I'm enjoying
7:58
Speaker 3: the drama I'm in during the storytelling, and it is,
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Speaker 3: by many accounts, the greatest story ever told. It's got
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Speaker 3: a It's a beautiful, beautiful story, regardless of where you
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Speaker 3: stand on the in your faith. So I think that's
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Speaker 3: that's really you know, you don't you oftentimes don't want
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Speaker 3: to say, well, this is for everybody, because sometimes if
8:17
Speaker 3: it's for everybody, it's for nobody. But I really think
8:19
Speaker 3: that that's the case in this in this show, which
8:21
Speaker 3: is there's no religious litmus test for you to to
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Speaker 3: watch it, and that and and I'm saying that as
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Speaker 3: the person who makes it, and and and we found
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Speaker 3: that to be true.
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Speaker 1: That was cool.
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Speaker 2: I never made the comparison. Really, Jesus, Harry Potter, I
8:34
Speaker 2: get it now, Jesus ride at Universal Studios.
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Speaker 3: I really hope no one just exerts this clip and says,
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Speaker 3: the creator of the Chosen, But.
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Speaker 2: You speak like a guy who's been in the media
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Speaker 2: or been in the public eye for a while, you know,
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Speaker 2: I know.
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Speaker 3: You guys have never experienced any kind of misunderstanding.
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Speaker 1: No, no one's ever misrepresented what we said or what
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Speaker 1: we've done. We know nothing about that.
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Speaker 2: That's a very good point tells what this might seem.
9:02
Speaker 2: It seems a little silly to even say it out loud.
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Speaker 2: What was your source material? And by that, I mean
9:07
Speaker 2: do you literally sit down and write a script or
9:09
Speaker 2: try to lay out your show? And how the Bible
9:13
Speaker 2: opened next to you? And how do you go about
9:16
Speaker 2: getting the material for your show? Is it literally taken
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Speaker 2: right from the Bible and then you put it in
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Speaker 2: whatever form you wanted to be in.
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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, we of course start with that. So even
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Speaker 3: back in twenty seventeen when my co writers and I
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Speaker 3: got together in my basement to Illinois and we're sketching out,
9:35
Speaker 3: you know, what we want this show to be, and
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Speaker 3: how many seasons and what's the beginning, middle, and end
9:39
Speaker 3: and all of that. And we were treating it like
9:42
Speaker 3: any writers of the show. Would you know, You've got
9:44
Speaker 3: character profiles, you've got key moments, You've got you know,
9:48
Speaker 3: where do we want to end? How do we want
9:49
Speaker 3: to get there? All that ord of stuff. Now, of
9:51
Speaker 3: course we start with the Bible because that's the primary
9:53
Speaker 3: source of truth and inspiration for a show like this. Now,
9:59
Speaker 3: you start with a Bible and you go Okay, I'll
10:01
Speaker 3: just give you a quick example. You take a moment
10:04
Speaker 3: from the Gospels, such as Jesus and Nicodemus meet on
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Speaker 3: the roof under cover of darkness in secret to talk
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Speaker 3: about who Jesus is and why he's here. This is
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Speaker 3: John chapter three. This is the most famous chapter in
10:17
Speaker 3: the Bible. This is the verse you see at football
10:20
Speaker 3: games John three sixteen. So typically you see that that
10:24
Speaker 3: chapter played out in a movie, a Jesus movie, and
10:28
Speaker 3: it's literally just word for word. You know, Jesus said this,
10:31
Speaker 3: Nicodemus said this. Sometimes it's even narrated and it's just
10:33
Speaker 3: played out like that. Well, we say, okay, we know
10:37
Speaker 3: that happened. That scene's going to be in our show.
10:39
Speaker 3: How do we get there. What do we know about Nicodemus,
10:42
Speaker 3: What do we know about this time period? What do
10:44
Speaker 3: we know about the religious leaders that you know that
10:46
Speaker 3: Nicodemus represents. There's a lot of people who've read John
10:50
Speaker 3: three sixteen or seen the verse at football games and
10:52
Speaker 3: have no idea who Jesus was talking to. Right, so
10:55
Speaker 3: we go, let's let's like any good traditional TV show,
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Speaker 3: you want to care about the characters, and so if
11:03
Speaker 3: you see it just totally out of context, and we're
11:05
Speaker 3: just relying on the Bible verse by verse. You really
11:08
Speaker 3: don't get a sense of who these people are, why
11:11
Speaker 3: they're asking these questions. The Bible, you know, the Gospels
11:15
Speaker 3: weren't written for a television show. They were written as
11:17
Speaker 3: essentially Jesus's greatest hits to prove that he was the Messiah.
11:21
Speaker 3: So for a TV show, we're thinking, all right, so
11:25
Speaker 3: we know that Nicodemus was a religious leader. Okay, the
11:29
Speaker 3: Bible doesn't get into some of the traditions and some
11:31
Speaker 3: of the rules and some of the personality types of
11:35
Speaker 3: religious leaders. Then we go to other sources for that. Right, then,
11:41
Speaker 3: why would they have been meeting in secret? Oh, because
11:43
Speaker 3: a religious leader wouldn't have typically believed in Jesus. He
11:46
Speaker 3: would have had to be under in secret if he
11:48
Speaker 3: believed in Jesus, because he wouldn't have wanted to get
11:49
Speaker 3: in trouble with his fellow religious leaders. So those are
11:52
Speaker 3: the kinds of things that aren't specifically mentioned in scripture,
11:55
Speaker 3: but we know that they were true. So we use
11:58
Speaker 3: cultural context, history, racal context, historical sources of course, the Bible.
12:03
Speaker 3: And then there's this element the human element, How would
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Speaker 3: a human being like that react in this scenario? What
12:10
Speaker 3: would take place after this moment in scripture that we
12:12
Speaker 3: don't see in scripture. So it's a variety of sources
12:15
Speaker 3: that we use, starting with the Bible.
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Speaker 1: Look, I cannot even imagine the undertaking of something like that,
12:23
Speaker 1: because it's one thing to tell a story that's been
12:26
Speaker 1: told that a lot of people are familiar with, but
12:28
Speaker 1: then to take the creative licenses that you have to
12:31
Speaker 1: take to make it a television production that's entertaining, that
12:35
Speaker 1: brings you in, and that provides context that you're having
12:37
Speaker 1: to fill in. I know you say that you're not
12:43
Speaker 1: writing it and you're not producing it based on what
12:45
Speaker 1: people will think, because everyone's got their opinions, But my god,
12:49
Speaker 1: you have to piss some people off and upset people
12:53
Speaker 1: with choices you've made and it's not what they think happened,
12:56
Speaker 1: And you actually really focus a lot on the why,
12:59
Speaker 1: not just the what. So there is there is an
13:03
Speaker 1: interpretation there that you're choosing what has been some of
13:08
Speaker 1: the feedback that you haven't necessarily loved hearing, and how
13:12
Speaker 1: have you incorporated that, if at all, into other episodes
13:16
Speaker 1: or later seasons.
13:17
Speaker 2: We want to hear the hate.
13:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because you know, obviously you've got to
13:21
Speaker 1: have a lot incoming, good and bad.
13:23
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I mean it's yes. You can just do
13:26
Speaker 3: a simple goog you know, YouTube search for my name
13:29
Speaker 3: and you'll find, you know, dozens of videos with hundreds
13:33
Speaker 3: of thousands, if not millions, of yous calling me a
13:35
Speaker 3: heretic and a dangerous person. Then you've got plenty of
13:39
Speaker 3: videos as well calling me the greatest thing who's ever lived,
13:42
Speaker 3: and you know they were. Neither one of those is true,
13:46
Speaker 3: and I can't. I can't, you know, seek to gain
13:51
Speaker 3: or avoid either either response. Now I'll say this, I
13:54
Speaker 3: do have a bit of a superpower. And the superpower
13:57
Speaker 3: came to me back in twenty seventeen when I had
14:00
Speaker 3: a huge career failure. A movie that I'd made that
14:03
Speaker 3: was released nationwide completely bombed, and I genuinely didn't know
14:07
Speaker 3: if I was ever going to make another movie or
14:09
Speaker 3: television show. And for the first time in my career,
14:13
Speaker 3: I was genuinely okay if I didn't. I had this
14:18
Speaker 3: experience with God where it was clear to me, And
14:21
Speaker 3: this is why the name of my studio is five
14:23
Speaker 3: and two Studios. Five loaves and two fish, the story
14:26
Speaker 3: of the Feeding of the five thousand, famous story from
14:28
Speaker 3: the Gospels, where I was reminded by someone I didn't
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Speaker 3: even know, it's not your job to feed five thousand,
14:34
Speaker 3: it's your job to provide five loaves and two fish.
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Speaker 3: And so that concept, which in I think mainstream culture
14:41
Speaker 3: would be like, don't focus on the results, focus on
14:43
Speaker 3: the process. But I genuinely, for the first time in
14:47
Speaker 3: my life, who you know, as someone who used to
14:49
Speaker 3: be a narcissist and someone whose drug of choice was
14:53
Speaker 3: validation and affirmation, I really gave all that up and
14:58
Speaker 3: I just thought, all I need to focus on is
15:01
Speaker 3: five loaves and two fish, whatever those are. If I
15:03
Speaker 3: hand them to God, he deems them worthy of acceptance,
15:07
Speaker 3: the transaction is over. And so I got to a
15:09
Speaker 3: place where I genuinely don't care what the response is
15:13
Speaker 3: from any one other than God or my wife. And
15:16
Speaker 3: when you get to that point, it is a superpower.
15:20
Speaker 3: And so that applies to not only the criticism. I mean,
15:24
Speaker 3: I'm just not going to base my life or my
15:27
Speaker 3: beliefs in Christ or my understanding of scripture on a
15:30
Speaker 3: YouTube comment. I don't think a single YouTube comment is
15:32
Speaker 3: going to settle two thousand years of debate on some
15:35
Speaker 3: of these theological concepts that caused so much controversy. I
15:39
Speaker 3: know people believe that, but I don't. So I'm not
15:43
Speaker 3: going to base my value or my worth or my
15:46
Speaker 3: confidence in what I'm doing you on YouTube comments, and
15:51
Speaker 3: so that applies not only to the hate but to
15:53
Speaker 3: the praise. So it's lovely. I love it, of course
15:56
Speaker 3: when someone comes up to me and says my life
15:58
Speaker 3: has changed because of this show, or you know what,
16:01
Speaker 3: I'm not a believer, but I love your show. I mean,
16:03
Speaker 3: I just had a podcast with a famous atheist who
16:05
Speaker 3: is a huge fan of the show, watches watched all
16:08
Speaker 3: five seasons and obsessed that even though he doesn't believe,
16:12
Speaker 3: you know, in the story. So I love hearing that.
16:16
Speaker 3: It means something to me. But it's not what I seek,
16:18
Speaker 3: it's not why I do it. And when you get
16:20
Speaker 3: to that place where you really are just focused, you know,
16:23
Speaker 3: on five loaves and two fish, and if God multiplies them,
16:27
Speaker 3: then that's great, but it's not up to you. It
16:29
Speaker 3: it really is a it really is a game changer.
16:33
Speaker 3: And so that's been my life and I hope that
16:35
Speaker 3: I continue to maintain that regardless of the level of
16:38
Speaker 3: success or the level of criticism downs.
16:41
Speaker 2: What is the reception you've gotten from God and your wife?
16:43
Speaker 2: You said that's the only audience of the matters.
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Speaker 3: Well, I'll know for sure from God when I when
16:48
Speaker 3: I pass away, and I hope that when I face him,
16:51
Speaker 3: I I I get a I get a well done,
16:53
Speaker 3: good and faithful service for servant, and not a what
16:56
Speaker 3: were you thinking that? Or you know, hopefully it's like
17:01
Speaker 3: you did really well. There was that one moment in
17:03
Speaker 3: episode four of season five where I don't know where
17:05
Speaker 3: you got that, but uh, but so far it seems
17:09
Speaker 3: to be going fairly well. The response around the world
17:12
Speaker 3: seems to indicate that that people aren't just replacing the
17:15
Speaker 3: Bible with my show, which would be a problem. It
17:18
Speaker 3: seems to be drawing more people towards learning more about
17:21
Speaker 3: who Jesus was, uh, which which is of course the
17:24
Speaker 3: biggest success I think from you know my wife, of course,
17:27
Speaker 3: she's gone through this with me. I'll say this, from
17:31
Speaker 3: from the moment we started doing this show, it's probably
17:34
Speaker 3: been the hardest eight years of our lives ever. You
17:37
Speaker 3: know that, from medical crises to to to family issues,
17:41
Speaker 3: all of those things. Our family has gotten closer to
17:43
Speaker 3: closer than ever, but a lot of it's trauma bonding.
17:46
Speaker 3: It's just been a you know, it's just been the
17:47
Speaker 3: hardest thing we've ever done. It's brought in lots of challenges,
17:50
Speaker 3: lots of criticism, of course, but it's also brought in
17:52
Speaker 3: lots of beauty and uh and and all over the
17:55
Speaker 3: world and every you know, just just you know. A
17:57
Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago, we broke our own Guinness Book
17:59
Speaker 3: of World records for the most translated show in history,
18:04
Speaker 3: right over one hundred and twenty six languages. This show
18:06
Speaker 3: has been translated into and it plays in every country
18:10
Speaker 3: in the world. So those are the kinds of things
18:12
Speaker 3: where you go, it seems like God is pleased, my
18:15
Speaker 3: wife is pleased. Everything else is gravy.
18:19
Speaker 2: You said, it's not supposed to replace. Obviously it's to
18:21
Speaker 2: replace the Bible. But do you find this is for
18:24
Speaker 2: some and maybe even a culture that has an attention
18:28
Speaker 2: span of a net. Do you find that maybe this
18:32
Speaker 2: is would you recommend this as a more for some
18:35
Speaker 2: digestible Bible to a certain degree.
18:39
Speaker 3: Well, I definitely wouldn't call it a Bible. I make
18:42
Speaker 3: it very clear, I'm not God. Jonathan Rumy who pleads
18:45
Speaker 3: Jesus is not Jesus and the Chosen is not the Bible.
18:48
Speaker 3: And the folks who will say you're not supposed to
18:51
Speaker 3: add to the Bible, you guys are doing something wrong.
18:53
Speaker 3: I've got very good news. If you go to your
18:55
Speaker 3: local store and you pull out a Bible and you
18:58
Speaker 3: open it up, you're not going to find some of
19:00
Speaker 3: the characters from our show that we've added to the story.
19:03
Speaker 3: The Bible has not been changed. The Bible has not
19:06
Speaker 3: been attitude not been added to. We're not the Bible. Now.
19:10
Speaker 3: When you talk about digestible, I would put it this way.
19:13
Speaker 3: I would say that the Bible, for sorry, our show,
19:17
Speaker 3: for many people, has cracked a code that has allowed
19:21
Speaker 3: them to see the Bible, the actual Bible more clearly.
19:25
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people who've read the stories and
19:27
Speaker 3: they just haven't been able to see it, haven't been
19:30
Speaker 3: able to fully understand it, because so many of these
19:32
Speaker 3: stories are kind of out of context. So for some
19:34
Speaker 3: people that's why they read a book where they go
19:36
Speaker 3: to a church near a sermon, or they listen to
19:38
Speaker 3: music where it can provide some context, provide a spotlight
19:43
Speaker 3: on some of the parts of Scripture that maybe they
19:45
Speaker 3: haven't fully understood or connected with. So I don't think
19:48
Speaker 3: I would say that the Chosen is a digestible Bible.
19:51
Speaker 3: I would say that the Chosen makes the Bible more digestible,
19:55
Speaker 3: maybe more more understandable to them in a way that
19:59
Speaker 3: may they hadn't before. But we've not heard from pretty
20:02
Speaker 3: much anybody who says, well, because of the Chosen, now
20:05
Speaker 3: I don't have to read my Bible because I've got
20:07
Speaker 3: the Chosen. I think that would be a problem, at
20:09
Speaker 3: least for me. Unfortunately we're not hearing that.
20:21
Speaker 1: I'm curious for you personally, has your faith your perspective
20:25
Speaker 1: on religion changed at all by doing this series? How
20:30
Speaker 1: have you grown or evolved as a Christian producing this?
20:35
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean when you're telling a story about Jesus
20:38
Speaker 3: and you're tasked with what is now probably considered kind
20:42
Speaker 3: of the definitive media account of the story of Jesus,
20:47
Speaker 3: you should know who he is, you should understand it, right,
20:49
Speaker 3: and so over the last eight years, I mean I've
20:52
Speaker 3: been I've been in Christian circles and schools and my
20:55
Speaker 3: family my whole life. I would say the thing that
20:58
Speaker 3: has really changed the most for me is the realization
21:05
Speaker 3: when you read scripture of the intimacy of Jesus. Jesus
21:09
Speaker 3: was an intimate god. I think we sometimes see him
21:12
Speaker 3: as like preaching to the masses, and a lot of
21:15
Speaker 3: times in visual depictions, he's very pious. He's he's got
21:18
Speaker 3: almost got a halo around him, and he's he's very formal,
21:21
Speaker 3: and he's he's giving these truth bombs that that are
21:24
Speaker 3: for everybody, which which I think there's there's truth to
21:26
Speaker 3: that in some ways. But in the Gospels, you the
21:30
Speaker 3: overwhelming majority of encounters that he has with people are
21:33
Speaker 3: very personal, and whether he's healing you, rebuking you, or
21:38
Speaker 3: calling you to follow him, Uh, it's always specific to
21:43
Speaker 3: your heart need, right, It's it's so many stories in
21:46
Speaker 3: the Gospels are him speaking specifically to the to the
21:50
Speaker 3: needs or to the to the to the experience of
21:53
Speaker 3: the person he's talking to. And so that for me
21:55
Speaker 3: has been a real game changer. Is I think I've
21:58
Speaker 3: always known that but not really experience. It is just
22:01
Speaker 3: how personal and intimate of a god Jesus is, and
22:04
Speaker 3: I think that's different from a lot of other portrayals
22:07
Speaker 3: depictions understandings of who Jesus is. And I think that's
22:10
Speaker 3: been key for a lot of people watching the show,
22:12
Speaker 3: is that they've they're like, I felt like Jesus was
22:15
Speaker 3: speaking to me. I felt like he was, you know,
22:17
Speaker 3: he was addressing my questions or my struggles or my doubts.
22:21
Speaker 3: And I think by telling the story through the eyes
22:23
Speaker 3: of those who met him, including his detractors, I think
22:27
Speaker 3: that's been a key factor in allowing the viewer to
22:32
Speaker 3: see Jesus in that way as opposed to just this
22:35
Speaker 3: distant figure. Right. I think that's a key thing, and
22:38
Speaker 3: a religious figure, right, I think I think there's a
22:40
Speaker 3: big difference between religion and relationship. I wouldn't consider myself
22:43
Speaker 3: actually very religious. I've always seen religion is man's attempts
22:47
Speaker 3: to reach God, you know, humankind's attempts to reach God.
22:49
Speaker 3: And I think I think my faith is about God's
22:52
Speaker 3: attempts to reach man, to preach humanity. And I think
22:56
Speaker 3: that's I think that's a key part of the show too.
22:58
Speaker 3: Jesus came and he's pursuing you, as opposed to you
23:01
Speaker 3: trying to pursue him, and hope you achieved some level
23:03
Speaker 3: of connection that if you just work hard enough, and
23:07
Speaker 3: you just do enough good, you'll get there. That's not
23:10
Speaker 3: how I see it, and I think that's been helpful
23:12
Speaker 3: through the in my own personal life as well.
23:14
Speaker 2: Dallas, how difficult was it to cast Jesus?
23:20
Speaker 3: So here's what's an interesting story that I'll tell quickly.
23:24
Speaker 3: Is I actually cast Jonathan Rumy well before the show.
23:28
Speaker 3: So over ten years ago, I was doing a short
23:31
Speaker 3: film for my church or Good Friday services. I'd come
23:34
Speaker 3: up with this idea of telling the story of the
23:38
Speaker 3: two Thieves on the Cross. I'd heard a sermon from
23:41
Speaker 3: someone who in Louisville's name is Kyle Eidelman. I was
23:44
Speaker 3: visiting this church and he was talking about how in
23:47
Speaker 3: the Gospels, in the story of the two thieves on
23:51
Speaker 3: the Cross, one of them goes from mocking Jesus to
23:54
Speaker 3: believing in him and wanting to be with him in
23:56
Speaker 3: Paradise within like three verses. And so he's like, what
24:00
Speaker 3: and in those hours that they were on the cross
24:02
Speaker 3: that the Gospels don't really share where he goes from
24:05
Speaker 3: mocking him to believing in him. And I just thought, Wow,
24:08
Speaker 3: that's really fascinating, you know. So I made this short
24:11
Speaker 3: film my co writer, and I wrote this short film
24:13
Speaker 3: about what the two thieves on the cross might have
24:15
Speaker 3: experienced before they got there. So Jesus shows up in
24:18
Speaker 3: the short film in the last five minutes. So I'm
24:20
Speaker 3: casting for this short film. And because Jesus is the
24:24
Speaker 3: is not the main character of the short until the
24:26
Speaker 3: last five minutes, all the people who were auditioning, all
24:29
Speaker 3: the best actors were auditioning for the two thieves, and
24:31
Speaker 3: the people who are auditioning for Jesus were just awful.
24:34
Speaker 3: And so I cast the two thieves and I'm like,
24:36
Speaker 3: I need I need someone to play Jesus who's halfway decent.
24:40
Speaker 3: And so Jonathan Rumy had had auditioned for one of
24:43
Speaker 3: the thieves, and I said, I'd like to see him
24:44
Speaker 3: play Jesus. He's got a really cool quality to him,
24:46
Speaker 3: let's see. And so within ten seconds of his audition
24:49
Speaker 3: for Jesus, I saw what so many people have seen
24:52
Speaker 3: from watching this show. I'm like, oh my gosh, this
24:54
Speaker 3: guy is extraordinary. And so then when we film this
24:58
Speaker 3: short film in a rock in Elgin, Illinois, uh his performance.
25:03
Speaker 3: He shows up for the last five minutes and I'm like,
25:06
Speaker 3: while I'm directing him, I'm like, this guy captures the
25:10
Speaker 3: like both the masculinity and the gentleness right that the
25:14
Speaker 3: that there's there's a you know, so many portrayals or
25:17
Speaker 3: one or the other. It's either he's he's a hippie
25:20
Speaker 3: or he's this distant figure or you know, he kind
25:23
Speaker 3: of fits into one one one kind of personality trait.
25:26
Speaker 3: And Jonathan's portrayal and I think, which fits with our writing,
25:30
Speaker 3: kind of captures the wide spectrum of Jesus's personhood. And so, uh,
25:36
Speaker 3: then we started doing a couple more short films than
25:38
Speaker 3: yettes every year, and so it was like training ground
25:41
Speaker 3: in many ways. And uh, and then when it came
25:44
Speaker 3: time to that we had the opportunity to do this show.
25:47
Speaker 3: I reached out to him like, hey, you want to
25:50
Speaker 3: put the sandals back on? We got it. We got
25:51
Speaker 3: an opportunity to do this on a on a bigger scale.
25:54
Speaker 3: We've been We've been funded through through crowdfunding for four episodes.
25:58
Speaker 3: Let's see how this goes. And so I think his
26:01
Speaker 3: portrayal is you know, just objectively speaking as a as
26:06
Speaker 3: a viewer myself, is is a is a game changer.
26:10
Speaker 2: Dallas, did you really say to him you want to
26:12
Speaker 2: put the sandals back.
26:14
Speaker 3: I did, I did. He will very that's his story
26:17
Speaker 3: as well.
26:18
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness that I love that showed up to
26:21
Speaker 1: be a thief.
26:22
Speaker 2: You're Jesus.
26:22
Speaker 1: You're Jesus, and you're going to stay Jesus for several seasons. Now,
26:25
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Dallas, in a world where we have become
26:29
Speaker 1: more secular, where there are obviously so many different competing religions,
26:34
Speaker 1: and you've got these big streaming services choosing what type
26:38
Speaker 1: of edgy programming they want to bring their their viewers
26:43
Speaker 1: and their audience. Was it hard getting Prime Video, Amazon
26:47
Speaker 1: Prime to sign up for this? Like? How did you
26:49
Speaker 1: get something that was a passion project up to actually
26:54
Speaker 1: be seen on such a huge streaming service and have
26:56
Speaker 1: obviously the success it's had. But I'm curious what the
26:59
Speaker 1: process was like. Was was it David versus Goliath?
27:02
Speaker 4: Or was this something that actually made sense to big
27:06
Speaker 4: media giants?
27:07
Speaker 2: It was nice?
27:08
Speaker 4: Yeah you like what I did there?
27:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very nice. So when it first started, nobody,
27:14
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I'm coming off a career failure. No
27:17
Speaker 3: one's lining up around the block to do a Jesus show.
27:20
Speaker 3: The idea came to me while I was doing another
27:22
Speaker 3: short film for my church's Christmas Eve service. So this
27:25
Speaker 3: comes after my big failure. I don't think. I don't
27:28
Speaker 3: know if I'm ever going to make another movie. But
27:31
Speaker 3: I did have this script that I had written with
27:33
Speaker 3: my co writer a year and a half previously, about
27:36
Speaker 3: the short film about the Birth of Christ from the
27:38
Speaker 3: perspective of the shepherds, and so we kind of pulled
27:41
Speaker 3: that off the shelf figuratively, and I went to my
27:43
Speaker 3: church again, I'm like, what do you guys think of
27:45
Speaker 3: something like this? They think it's a great idea. So
27:48
Speaker 3: on my friend's farm in Illinois, twenty minutes from my house,
27:51
Speaker 3: we filmed this short film about the birth of Christ.
27:54
Speaker 3: And while I'm making it is when I came up
27:55
Speaker 3: with the idea for this show. I was binge watching
27:57
Speaker 3: the wire at the time, the HBO's show from years back,
28:01
Speaker 3: The WHI, which is an extraordinary show, not a very
28:04
Speaker 3: Jesus he show. They say the word Jesus a lot,
28:07
Speaker 3: but not in a respectful way. And so I'm watching it,
28:11
Speaker 3: I'm going, this is really fascinating. There's never been a
28:14
Speaker 3: multi season show about Jesus before. There's been movies There's
28:17
Speaker 3: been mini series, but never a show where you can,
28:20
Speaker 3: you know, follow these characters from episode to episode, season
28:23
Speaker 3: to season. And The Wire has this really unique approach.
28:26
Speaker 3: You see the people on the streets, you see the criminals,
28:29
Speaker 3: you see the cops, you see the mayor's office, you
28:31
Speaker 3: see the press from all these different angles. I thought
28:37
Speaker 3: that'd be cool to tell a story from the perspective
28:39
Speaker 3: of the followers of Christ, but also the enemies people
28:42
Speaker 3: in the Roman you know, the Romans, the Pharisees, the
28:45
Speaker 3: religious leaders. So, like I said, there's no one lining
28:48
Speaker 3: her up around the block to do that, and I'm
28:51
Speaker 3: coming off a career failure. Well, that short film was
28:54
Speaker 3: used as a became essentially a pilot episode. We put
28:57
Speaker 3: it on social media and did crowdfund because I knew
29:01
Speaker 3: no one, no studio was going to fund this, and
29:03
Speaker 3: so we gets crowdfunded and I'm thinking, this isn't going
29:06
Speaker 3: to work. It was an idea from another small streaming
29:09
Speaker 3: platform at the time, Angel Studios. They had the idea
29:12
Speaker 3: for this, and I thought, this isn't going to work.
29:13
Speaker 3: You know, it's an eighteen minute short film and the
29:17
Speaker 3: all time crowdfunding record was five and a half million
29:19
Speaker 3: dollars from projects that had huge fan bases already, I
29:22
Speaker 3: had no fan base but five loaves, two fish. I'm
29:26
Speaker 3: not worried about the results. We'll see what happens. Well.
29:29
Speaker 3: Fast forward a few months later, ten million dollars comes
29:32
Speaker 3: in from sixteen thousand people all over the world based
29:35
Speaker 3: on this little short film that I did on my
29:37
Speaker 3: friend's farm, shattering the all time crowdfunding record, giving us
29:41
Speaker 3: the opportunity to do season one. So we just did
29:43
Speaker 3: it own, on our own right then we put it
29:46
Speaker 3: out there and no one shows up at first, and
29:49
Speaker 3: we had a hard time getting viewers. And finally when
29:51
Speaker 3: covid hit and we decided to do eight episodes, you know,
29:56
Speaker 3: one at a time on YouTube live streams, and I
29:59
Speaker 3: just said, look, we're just going to give it to
30:01
Speaker 3: you for free for a few weeks. It's covid. You know,
30:03
Speaker 3: we're all scared. Let's just watch this show for free.
30:06
Speaker 3: And here's the thing. If you if you love this show,
30:09
Speaker 3: and if you want us to keep going, you know
30:11
Speaker 3: you can you can give in this way, but it's
30:14
Speaker 3: free for now. A couple of nights into it, we
30:16
Speaker 3: had quadrupled our income, and I just said my wife
30:19
Speaker 3: and I just said, you know what, we just need
30:21
Speaker 3: to make this show free forever, and we'll just trust
30:23
Speaker 3: the outcome. So we decided to make the show free.
30:26
Speaker 3: It explodes, that's when it's that was kind of the
30:28
Speaker 3: first tipping point. So that's when Prime and and all
30:32
Speaker 3: of the platforms they start to see it. And at
30:36
Speaker 3: each company, in this case at Prime Video, there's a
30:38
Speaker 3: woman named Tracy Blackwell who had just joined the Amazon
30:43
Speaker 3: and they had said to her, you know what, you know,
30:45
Speaker 3: what are you What are some of your ideas and
30:46
Speaker 3: you have any big ideas? And she's like, the chosen
30:49
Speaker 3: you had got to see this show. We have got
30:51
Speaker 3: to get this show. So eventually all the platforms, all
30:55
Speaker 3: the bit you know, the major streamers, we had seen
30:57
Speaker 3: the audience we'd built, seen the success of the show.
31:00
Speaker 3: So uh no, it was not David and Goliath by
31:03
Speaker 3: the time they came to us saying we want to
31:06
Speaker 3: I mean, by by that point, it was an easy conversation. Yes,
31:11
Speaker 3: so uh and and that's I don't even say that
31:14
Speaker 3: as a criticism. I mean, you know, I'm a nobody
31:17
Speaker 3: that there's no reason to pursue a show like mine.
31:20
Speaker 3: But by the time that the streamers were interested. We
31:25
Speaker 3: had had, you know, over one hundred million viewers and
31:28
Speaker 3: and the show now Tracy at Amazon, she had seen
31:30
Speaker 3: it from the beginning. She knew this was going to
31:32
Speaker 3: be big, but but it was. It was a very
31:34
Speaker 3: easy conversation after after that point.
31:37
Speaker 2: Not a David versus Glide ended up being Goliath versus Goliath. Yes,
31:42
Speaker 2: you build it. That's actually yeah, if you build it,
31:45
Speaker 2: they will come.
31:46
Speaker 3: I want to ask.
31:48
Speaker 2: Rose and I when we were in our ABC days,
31:52
Speaker 2: we used to do a segment every week called Faith Friday,
31:55
Speaker 2: and we loved it and without question, Rose, I'm not
31:57
Speaker 2: overstating here, it was our favorite segment every We brought
32:01
Speaker 2: on faith leaders every single week, all different denominations and
32:05
Speaker 2: just ask them about what's going on in the world
32:07
Speaker 2: and to just give words of encouragement to our viewers
32:10
Speaker 2: on a frighting when it's always a difficult time, difficult week.
32:14
Speaker 2: And I'm kind of asking you and putting you in
32:17
Speaker 2: that position. I know you're not a pastor and you're
32:19
Speaker 2: not here to convert anybody, but you're someone who is
32:22
Speaker 2: very steeped in faith in what you do, and you're
32:24
Speaker 2: a believer, and so I would just ask you if
32:27
Speaker 2: you can for a moment. I know you've thought about
32:28
Speaker 2: what's going on in the world, from what we're seeing,
32:31
Speaker 2: at the difficult everybody's having, Just could you pass along
32:35
Speaker 2: just from whatever is in you and in your heart,
32:37
Speaker 2: from what you know, just words of encouragement in times
32:40
Speaker 2: that are so difficult. And I know it's for you
32:43
Speaker 2: to tell people to turn to God, but maybe turn
32:45
Speaker 2: to God, and maybe not just I'm always curious to
32:47
Speaker 2: talk to We are always curious and to hear from
32:49
Speaker 2: folks who are that steeped in faith, to just give
32:53
Speaker 2: some words or encouragement at a time that can be
32:56
Speaker 2: discouraging for us.
32:57
Speaker 3: All absolutely going through now tribalism, whether it's all over
33:06
Speaker 3: the world or even here in the United States. We're
33:08
Speaker 3: conditioned right now to find ourselves into these insular tribes,
33:14
Speaker 3: and we're conditioned now to immediately, if not hate, strongly
33:20
Speaker 3: distrust and dislike anyone who's not in our tribe. And
33:24
Speaker 3: that has created in ourselves an inherent dislike or distrust
33:29
Speaker 3: of others, but it's also created a dislike or distrust
33:33
Speaker 3: towards us. There's a lot of people who I don't
33:35
Speaker 3: who I know would prefer not to just be in
33:38
Speaker 3: in some tribe where they're only friends or family are
33:43
Speaker 3: the people who agree with them, because for a lot
33:45
Speaker 3: of people, they don't have a lot of friends or family,
33:48
Speaker 3: and so times like this are extraordinarily challenging, they're confusing. Well,
33:54
Speaker 3: two thousand years ago, it was the exact same situation.
33:58
Speaker 3: People were divided into tribes. There was a lot of hatred,
34:00
Speaker 3: there was a lot of oppression, and Jesus came in
34:04
Speaker 3: the midst of all of that, and he came to
34:06
Speaker 3: a group of people who were like, Okay, great, now
34:09
Speaker 3: you're here, the Messiah's here. We're going to conquer our oppressors.
34:13
Speaker 3: We're going to defeat our enemies. We're going to win right,
34:17
Speaker 3: and we're gonna instead of being oppressed, we're now going
34:20
Speaker 3: to be able to dominate. We're going to be able
34:22
Speaker 3: to have the victory and freedom and all of that.
34:26
Speaker 3: And he said, yeah, no, actually, that's not why I'm here.
34:30
Speaker 3: You actually will probably still suffer. In fact, because of
34:33
Speaker 3: following me, you might suffer even more than others. You're
34:36
Speaker 3: going to be persecuted, there will be wars, there will
34:39
Speaker 3: be persecution. That's always going to be here. At one
34:41
Speaker 3: point he even said, there will always be the poor.
34:45
Speaker 3: So he talked about that until he comes back, until
34:49
Speaker 3: we're you know, on this side of heaven, on this
34:51
Speaker 3: side of eternity, there will be suffering. And so he said,
34:55
Speaker 3: I'm here for your hearts. I'm here for you to
34:58
Speaker 3: actually love your enemies, be kind to those who who
35:04
Speaker 3: persecute you, turn the other cheek. There is a way
35:07
Speaker 3: of responding to what we're going through that, on the surface,
35:12
Speaker 3: makes no sense. That seems to be in contrast to
35:15
Speaker 3: how we would typically choose to be. We want to win,
35:18
Speaker 3: we want to get revenge. And I think a good
35:21
Speaker 3: question to ask all of us is how's that working out? Right?
35:25
Speaker 3: It's not working very well. It hasn't been working for
35:28
Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of years, And so I would encourage you,
35:31
Speaker 3: whether you're a believer or not, the teachings of Jesus
35:35
Speaker 3: might actually be the only answer. They might be the
35:38
Speaker 3: only way because winning, overcoming, defeating is you know, fighting
35:47
Speaker 3: is just doesn't seem to be working very well. And
35:50
Speaker 3: even when people finally do win and they do get
35:52
Speaker 3: the power, they always tend to screw it up. They
35:54
Speaker 3: always tend to be impacted in some way by their
36:00
Speaker 3: own flesh, by their own ego, and so service to others,
36:06
Speaker 3: love of even your enemies might just be the answer
36:11
Speaker 3: that that might conflict with our own egos and flesh,
36:14
Speaker 3: but it is a it is a game changer, I believe,
36:18
Speaker 3: and I think that the story from two thousand years
36:20
Speaker 3: ago might be the answer to the story today.
36:24
Speaker 4: That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Jenkins. You might if the producing
36:29
Speaker 4: thing doesn't work out, I could see you in a
36:32
Speaker 4: pulpit one day, one day soon.
36:36
Speaker 3: So well, fortunately for for for people in the congregants,
36:40
Speaker 3: the producing thing is working out. I'm not going to
36:45
Speaker 3: be in the pulpit any.
36:46
Speaker 4: We want to wish you all. I know that you
36:49
Speaker 4: don't want to take the personal congratulations for the success
36:52
Speaker 4: of the show, but certainly you are telling a story
36:56
Speaker 4: in a way that has resonated with people around the world.
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Speaker 4: Your bringing a story to them that maybe they're seeing
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Speaker 4: for the first time, or they're seeing from a much
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Speaker 4: more relatable perspective. So, Dallas Jenkins, thank you. So it
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Speaker 4: was such an honor to get to talk with you,
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Speaker 4: to get to meet you and to hear and see
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Speaker 4: what you're doing and how you're changing the world for good.
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Speaker 2: We need more.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much more well, and I appreciate and
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Speaker 3: I appreciate you amplifying those voices for good as well.
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Speaker 3: It really means a lot. I appreciate you guys having
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Speaker 3: on your show. Thank you.