Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #31 - Is Your Neighbourhood Wildlife Friendly? | Dr Jacinta Humphrey [RMIT]

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#31 - Is Your Neighbourhood Wildlife Friendly? | Dr Jacinta Humphrey [RMIT] · The Shed Organics Show

0:00
Hey everybody, what's going on? Welcome back to another episode
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of the Shared Organics Show. If you're new here, thank you
0:08
very much for joining me. And if you are returning as a
0:12
listener or a viewer of the podcast, it's very nice to have
0:16
you back. Thanks for being with us.
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Today's episode we're joined by Doctor Jacinta Humphrey, who is
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an urban ecologist or researcher and planner in the world of
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urban ecology. And if you're like me and you
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don't quite know what that was, then stick around because that
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question is answered for us straight away.
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Now, urban ecology is super important.
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Essentially, we're marrying the natural world together with our
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urban cities, neighborhoods, developments, all of this kind
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of thing, and what impact we have on the natural world and
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how we can start bringing back some of the biodiversity that
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we're missing in our cities. We talk about a whole bunch of
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different things surrounding this, surrounding funding,
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surrounding research, and just general things that you can do
1:10
to bring biodiverse life back into your garden.
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Not just for obviously the plants and native plants that we
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think about here as a gardening sort of focus, but also in terms
1:22
of animals and wildlife that we can bring back, managing
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predators and prey and overpopulation and adaptation of
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all these different animals and insects.
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Of course. It's a fascinating world, a
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fascinating problem, and Jacinta is an amazing person to help us
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digest all of that. So let's dive straight in.
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I'm excited for you to hear this one.
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This one is a jam packed full of interesting knowledge.
1:49
So stick around and enjoy. The episode here is Doctor
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Jacinta Humphrey. Jacinta, I'm new to this whole
2:14
kind of space in basic terms, like I'm kind of trying to get
2:18
my head wrapped around what it is exactly that you do.
2:23
Can you tell me, like for somebody who's brand new to
2:26
this, what is it that you do and why is it important?
2:32
Yeah, so I'm, I'm an urban ecologist.
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So what that means is I am a scientist who specializes in
2:40
ecology, but I work solely in cities, towns, places where we
2:45
have built houses and we all live, work, that kind of thing.
2:49
So what that I guess drills down to for, for me is that I'm
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really interested in the animals that are living in amongst us in
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our cities and towns and the ways that they're interacting
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with each other, interacting with people, and also just
3:05
interacting with the general environment that they now find
3:08
themselves in these heavily modified areas.
3:11
Yeah, totally. Well, OK, cool.
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Because that's certainly something, you know, when these
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birds or whatever it is, wildlife are taken out of their
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habitat, they have to adapt. And when I guess there's like
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2-2 fold questions that come out of what you just said, one is
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like, are we modifying their environment or are they just
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finding a new home in ours? Because I feel like it might be
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more so the second one, I'm not quite sure.
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So it's, it's both, right. There's, there's going to be
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some species that are very much in that first category where we
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are overtime clearing and modifying the habitat that they
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really need to be able to find food to, to build nests,
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everything that they do. And they're the ones that are
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really struggling in, in cities. They're, you know, just hanging
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in there. And then there's a whole other
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group of species that are like, hey, this is great, we love what
4:15
you've done with the place. And they have either moved into
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cities when they wouldn't have normally occurred in that area
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at all, or they've just gone nuts and there's now so many
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more of them than what they would have been before the city
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occurred there. Yeah, like my first thought
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again for something like that is more say like a rat, for
4:38
example, loves the city, right. And their their numbers can
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somewhat become unchecked due to the fact that they are in an
4:48
environment where there's not a huge amount of predators maybe
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that they normally would find in the wild.
4:53
What are some, what are some other examples of species that
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you kind of, yeah, have either maybe gone to a point of
5:03
overpopulation or yeah, like have just kind of not been
5:07
checked. Is this a few more species like
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that that you might find? Yeah.
5:11
So often they are what we might consider an exotic or an
5:15
invasive species or something like a rat is a really great
5:18
example. It's not native to Australia.
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It was introduced at some point since white settlers arrived.
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And they do so well in cities because there's just heaps for
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them to eat. They, they're a generalist, so
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that means they'll eat, eat pretty much anything they can
5:32
find, including each other, which is horrible strange.
5:38
So yeah, they, they've got all the perfect conditions in for
5:41
them in cities and the same for house mice, but it's also the
5:44
case for things like foxes. So they are really prolific in
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cities and we don't always see them because they're nocturnal.
5:51
They're in the awake at night time.
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But again, stacks for them to eat.
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And yeah, they're, they're loving it.
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They're finding heaps of places where they can make things work.
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The other one I think have his pigeons.
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Absolutely. Pigeons are what we might their
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proper name is a rock dove, or people call them feral doves
6:10
sometimes, but they're, yeah, they're they're native to North
6:14
America and, and, and Europe, but now they're here in
6:17
Australia. And yeah, they occur in enormous
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numbers in cities. I know that's something, again,
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they're great scavengers. Maybe it's more so the scavenger
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type species that seem to thrive off our waste and and the things
6:32
that we're throwing out. Yeah, that's definitely part of
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it. If they're something that is
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happy to eat the things that we leave behind, they're, they're
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going to do really well. And then they're also
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potentially, I guess they're not super scared of being around
6:47
people. They're, they're willing to
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tolerate living, you know, in amongst our settlements.
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So it's probably more the species that are quite shy and
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and afraid they're they don't do as well in cities.
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Fairpoint And do you think that's something that they've
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developed like what I would call generally, generationally, you
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know, it's, it's kind of being built into them.
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And in that adaptation, you know, year after year,
7:16
generation after generation, they're more comfortable.
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They go, they're not there to hurt us.
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There's plenty of food, we can find some ways and they sort of
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adapt to them being potentially unable to return to where they
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initially came from, right? Yeah, yeah.
7:34
So definitely there has been research that's not necessarily
7:38
here in Australia, but in in other cities around the world
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that have shown that the behavior of animals does change
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over time in cities. And this is kind of an example
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of like microevolution, if you will.
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So, you know, the the animals that are really bold and
7:54
adventurous, they're the ones that are going out and finding
7:56
more food and then they potentially are more successful.
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They have more offspring and those traits get passed on
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through the generations and suddenly all of them are really
8:05
bold and adventurous and doing really well.
8:08
True. And there's this concept, I
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don't know if you've come across it before, called morphic
8:12
resonance. And I think it was popularized
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by a man named Rupert Sheldrake and his son Merlin Sheldrake is
8:24
massive into the world of fungi and and things like this.
8:27
But anyway, Rupert, Rupert came up with this concept of morphic
8:31
resonance, whereby, for example, if you ran rats through an
8:36
experiment in one part of the world and you sort of trained
8:41
them OK to do certain behavior, whatever it might be.
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They found that the test rats or whatever in a different part.
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So they were doing a different part of the world.
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They would learn the next generations would learn that
8:56
skill quicker and faster as if they seemingly knew what was
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going on. And now these are totally
9:03
separate family members and they're different parts of the
9:07
world and all this kind of thing.
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But there's this theory that they are still somewhat
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connected through their genetics, their potential and
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their species to learn certain things.
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And we see an example of this in like for example, our Olympics
9:25
or our, you might have somebody break the 100 meter record and
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then within a few years there's 5 or 6 people that have beaten
9:31
that record already. And it's like how you know, how
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is that happening? And this is something to do with
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that morphic resonance. So I imagine that if this is
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similar, you might find species that you know, in Europe, like a
9:46
pigeon or whatever they adapted to living around a city.
9:50
And then it makes more of those species around the world
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understand that or, you know, generationally figure out that
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that's actually OK. We can go and live in these
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these types of things. I don't expect you to talk on
10:03
morphic resonance because it's it's still very, very up in the
10:08
air. But it's something that's really
10:09
interesting and it's interested me.
10:11
Do you, do you think that the adaptations, you know, are like
10:17
worldwide and you sort of see them happening at similar rates
10:21
around the world with same species?
10:25
I guess certainly like back to our our friend the pigeons that
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that they're certainly infiltrating cities globally
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because they occur in so many different countries now.
10:38
And I don't know when that kind of willingness would have
10:42
evolved in that species. It's probably going back a
10:44
fairway. Yeah, yeah.
10:48
But there there's always new behaviours that are kind of
10:51
evolving in urban animals. So a great example, there's a
10:56
population of sulfur crusted cockatoos that live in a part of
10:59
Sydney and they have learnt how to open rubbish bins and how to
11:04
fish food out of these rubbish bins.
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And it's only in one particular area.
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And all the residents who live there are now having to like,
11:12
lock their bins and and come up with ingenious ways to keep them
11:15
out because this idea that has kind of, you know, some bold
11:20
cockatoo figured it out. They're now like teaching each
11:23
other and it's spreading. So more and more cockies are
11:26
having to go with the bins. So yeah, definitely there's
11:30
there's always new behaviours popping up in.
11:32
Urban animals, I feel like. Fascinating.
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Yeah, you're right. And I feel like maybe we can use
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this as an experiment. You can see whether or not
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there's other cockatoos around different parts of Australia
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starting to figure this out. And you can be like, maybe
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that's that morphic resonance Jordan was harping on about.
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That's really cool. So what sort of things are you
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studying currently? What's top of mind for you at
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the moment in terms of the parts of your job that you're
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researching etcetera? Yeah, so I, I work with a group
12:05
of people at RMIT University and we are really interested in a
12:10
concept called Biodiversity Sensitive Urban design.
12:14
So it's this idea of kind of bringing together the fields of
12:17
urban ecology and urban planning and design to try and find a way
12:23
that we can create, say, new housing developments that aren't
12:27
just good for people, but they're also good for all of the
12:29
animals and, and plant species and fungi and whatever else that
12:34
would naturally occur in that area.
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Because at the moment the types of developments that we're
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producing are pretty shit for nature there.
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There's not a lot living there. And in many cases they're not
12:46
that great for people either. But totally agree, Yeah,
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there's, there's a better way basically.
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And and that's what our our group is all about is trying to
12:54
make that happen and try to find the ways that we can kind of
12:58
change the business as usual model.
13:01
So is that like my thinking goes to, OK, so you might have to
13:07
just have the houses spaced out a little bit more, more trees
13:10
and garden areas, little, you know, tunnels or bridges for the
13:16
the animals to cross and not get hit and like they call them like
13:19
nature bridges or something. I've seen these things over
13:22
highways and all that. Like what are some of the things
13:25
that you can do? Like what?
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How do you think about that? Yeah.
13:29
So there's heaps of different things that you can do and you
13:31
just like mentioned a whole bunch of really good ones.
13:34
So we think about, you know, trying to make sure do we have
13:37
enough habitat for the for the particular animals that might
13:41
occur here, whether that's birds, Wallabies, whatever it
13:44
might be. Do we have enough space?
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Do they have enough food? Can they move around safely?
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So what we might call connectivity.
13:52
So that's, you know, do we have places where they can safely
13:55
cross roads, whether that's above or underneath?
13:59
Are there any particular threats that we might need to deal with?
14:03
So beyond just roads and cars, but maybe there's a huge
14:06
population of foxes that's going to be an issue or, or something
14:10
like that. And are there ways that we can
14:13
kind of get the community on board so that they're having
14:16
positive interactions with these animals when they see them and
14:19
they're super keen to do more? So yeah, we we wanna see kind of
14:24
changes in the way that people think about streets, for
14:28
example. So rather than it just being a
14:30
patch of exotic lawn and maybe a street tree, see if we can get
14:35
some more vegetation into that space.
14:37
See if we can maybe make some of the footpaths a little bit
14:40
narrower so that there's more space to be able to plant
14:44
things. Maybe your footpaths a bit
14:45
winding on one side of the road. So you've got little pockets
14:49
that kind of can be used to create some structure for
14:53
wildlife to use. And you know, great for
14:56
invertebrates like our native bees.
14:59
We can also be thinking about obviously having preferably
15:04
indigenous plantings rather than having just exotic trees going
15:08
in and having a wide diversity of different plants going in as
15:13
well. So it's not just some
15:14
monoculture. We have a whole range of
15:17
different plant resources, things that are going to flower
15:20
at different times of the year. So they're providing food
15:23
resources all year round. What else we can have elevated
15:28
watering points for for birds as well.
15:31
So there's these really cool things called cocky troughs,
15:35
which is hard to say. And they've been installed in
15:38
parks in Perth. So they're kind of elevated
15:40
water troughs that automatically refill.
15:44
And all of the black cockatoos over in that part of the
15:47
Australia come in and, and drink and bathe in these troughs.
15:51
And it's super, super cool for the the humans who are seeing
15:55
these birds in their parks. And it's also really, really
15:57
great for the birds because there's often not a lot of water
16:00
in in WA. So things like that we could be
16:03
looking to replicate over on the East Coast as well.
16:06
That's really cool. It, it sounds like there's
16:09
plenty of ideas and I presume plenty of examples like that
16:14
where you've got, you know, you say, hey, that really worked
16:17
over here, this really worked over here.
16:21
Is it difficult from your standpoint to have a bit of a, a
16:27
test area like because you're fighting up against, say these
16:33
big money companies that are wanting to build lots of areas
16:37
and you're coming and going maybe a little bit less houses,
16:40
maybe a little bit more green and they're going, that's coming
16:42
out of my, my budget. Absolutely.
16:46
Is that something you're finding difficult to get areas where we
16:49
can go, let's actually fully implement this in one town or or
16:54
you know, area where we're starting to build.
16:58
Do you get any of that? Or is it just like, OK, this
17:00
worked here, this worked, this worked, this worked, These are
17:02
the techniques. And then try and encourage
17:04
people to put some of those in. Yeah.
17:07
So it is really hard. As you say, there's some
17:10
developers out there are very focused on the bottom line and
17:13
it's all about what they call housing yield.
17:16
So how many houses can we fit in this one locker land?
17:21
And they will pack them in, You know, they build basically fence
17:24
to fence. So there's virtually no space
17:26
left for green. Green, like any form of
17:29
greenery. Copy and paste.
17:31
Yeah, yeah, Lego Land. But that's not the case for
17:36
everyone. So there are definitely some
17:39
companies out there that are keen to try something new.
17:42
They're aware that there's potentially other ways that they
17:46
could be, you know, rolling out housing developments.
17:48
And they're also aware of there's this kind of global idea
17:54
which hasn't necessarily taken off here in Australia yet, but
17:57
it's this idea of being nature positive.
18:00
So it refers to kind of seeing, not just say, building some
18:06
houses and then offsetting it by protecting some patch of
18:10
bushland somewhere else, but it's actually saying, OK, well,
18:13
we're going to build some houses, but within we're going
18:16
to improve the biodiversity on the site itself.
18:21
And it's it's a big thing over in the UK at the moment.
18:25
But yeah, hasn't really taken off here yet.
18:27
But they kind of they're seeing the writing on the wall and
18:30
they're like, you know what, that's probably coming.
18:32
We're going to have to start changing what we're doing.
18:37
But it is really hard because a lot of the time we don't know
18:40
what these things are going to cost to implement on a, on a big
18:43
scale. And there's a lot of concern
18:46
about, well, we're going to go over budget.
18:48
And you know, it's, it's hard to deliver housing as it is from a
18:53
financial perspective. They don't want it to be too
18:55
expensive for the person who ends up buying that home.
18:59
So yeah, you've got to try and find the balance.
19:01
How can we still make it affordable but make it better
19:04
than what it currently is? Yeah, that would be a really
19:07
difficult thing for you to to navigate.
19:09
But also I feel like that's something where governments
19:13
should get involved and provide incentives to like, it's Yep,
19:18
you know, you've got this wonderful appeal of living in a
19:23
country like ours and saying we've got all this amazing
19:26
wildlife and, you know, it's a wonderful country to live.
19:31
But then we're not going to go and protect that.
19:33
We're actually going to tear it down and just provide concrete
19:36
jungles for us to live in. Do you do you know of any
19:41
government help or is this something that's kind of people
19:44
like yourself are trying to push for?
19:48
Yeah. So in certain parts of Australia
19:51
this has been kind of written in to, to planning schemes.
19:55
So ACT is the best example. They've actually incorporated
19:59
biodiversity sensitive urban design into like their their
20:02
planning and policies, which is awesome.
20:05
Perfect. There's a couple of, you know,
20:07
isolated councils that are also starting to be like, hey, this
20:11
needs to be happening. But yeah, not yet at kind of a
20:15
broad scale, unfortunately. And I definitely think that
20:19
governments could be involved. So like we've already seen some
20:24
some governments keen to like provide rebates or, or funding
20:30
if say you're going to put solar panels on your roof.
20:32
So from like a climate change mitigation perspective.
20:35
So I don't see why we couldn't be doing something similar from
20:38
a biodiversity conservation perspective.
20:42
Like, it's also going to have some benefits in terms of
20:44
mitigating climate change, but it's going to create, you know,
20:48
spaces that are so much better for people to live in as well.
20:51
Yeah, you're right. So much better, more like, I
20:53
guess, healthy. Like for us, we're more
20:56
connected still with nature. And you keep mentioning
20:59
biodiversity and diversity in general.
21:01
It's something that I talk about a lot, like that nature's middle
21:04
name is kind of diversity, right?
21:06
It just seems to work so much better in so many ways when
21:10
you've got more diversity. Everything seems to balance out
21:13
in that instance, man, I'm thinking how difficult it is
21:18
because we are such a as human beings.
21:21
We're so I don't want to use the word that's like invasive or
21:26
like this type of thing where, you know, people.
21:29
We kind of just spread and seem to cause havoc against the
21:33
natural world. And for whatever reason, the
21:36
definition of nature in the dictionary is anything other
21:39
than like man made or, or us, which is like wild putting US
21:44
against, like in opposition to it.
21:47
How do you how do you see us in a in our in urban environments?
21:54
How can we like this is such a kind of broad and and deep
21:59
question at the same time. Like what's your first thoughts
22:01
when we're trying to play our role in that biodiversity?
22:05
You know, you've got like if we went out and lived in the
22:08
jungle, it's much more like we're in nature.
22:12
Every nature is kind of the 98% and we're the 2% in that
22:16
situation, right? But in a city, it's the complete
22:20
flip. The nature is the 2% or we're
22:23
the majority of that. And I feel like finding that
22:27
balance of biodiversity where one species and another species
22:32
balance each other out. You've got a predator and a prey
22:35
and and all of these things working in harmony together.
22:40
Is that even possible in a city environment?
22:43
Like how how can you get in like increased biodiversity to a
22:49
point where everything is harmonious?
22:52
How difficult is that? It's incredibly difficult.
22:55
Like we, we have systematically changed things and in so many
23:01
places across the planet. And I think, like the big thing
23:06
about working in urban ecology is you kind of need to accept
23:10
that this is a novel ecosystem that we've created.
23:14
So this is entirely new and unique.
23:17
And each city is probably unique as well in its own way.
23:22
So if we're looking to say, restore biodiversity, bring back
23:26
some of those locally indigenous species, there's no way that we
23:30
can, you know, restore a dry, grassy woodland, for example, or
23:35
a temperate rainforest that you might have up in Brizzy.
23:38
You're just not going to get back to that original plant
23:41
community because the conditions have shifted so much.
23:44
So it's about finding the best possible kind of compromise.
23:50
We still need to have places for people to live.
23:53
And we have to acknowledge that we have changed this land so
23:57
much over the last, you know, 203 hundred years.
24:00
So it's saying, well, what what will still grow here?
24:04
What can still live in these environments?
24:06
How can we retrofit them to make them a bit better than what they
24:10
are now without fully approaching, you know, the
24:13
original ecosystem? Yeah, that does make a lot of
24:15
sense. It's just kind of going look,
24:17
this is it is what it is. We need to live, we need to be
24:21
in these. Well, need maybe is the wrong
24:23
word, but we find ourselves in a position where we are, you know,
24:27
in cities and things like this. One thing that Eric pointed out
24:31
who I mentioned to you before starting, Eric works with these
24:36
urban gardens. And for those who haven't seen
24:39
the episode, highly recommend checking it out.
24:41
But he talks about when designing for a building, for
24:45
example, a garden for a building that can hold and host habitat
24:51
for bird species, insects, all of these types of things.
24:55
He's thinking about two things that I want to mention.
24:59
One is the succession. So we're trying to kind of take
25:04
it somewhere. So we got to figure out where we
25:07
are currently and then use species and things to direct it
25:12
towards that way. Now, whether that's, you know,
25:15
introducing, like he said, on the top of a building, you're
25:19
not going to be putting these really delicate flowers and
25:21
things like this. You want some Hardy grasses and
25:25
all of this that are going to break up the wind and be able to
25:28
absorb all the sun and blah, blah, blah.
25:30
And then underneath that you start bringing in these other
25:33
species. And as that first one grows it,
25:35
you know, moves on to the next one and we develop the
25:38
succession until we have the environment that we want.
25:41
I presume it's similar with the animals and and that type of
25:45
thing as well. But the second thing that he
25:48
talks about a lot is, I guess, looking in nature and other
25:56
areas of nature to see what is working in a similar style.
26:01
So again, working off the side of a building, he's looking at
26:04
plant species that are living off the side of a Cliff, for
26:07
example, because that's similar. It's saying how do they survive
26:11
in this small little bit of aggregate or medium and they're
26:15
able to start doing what they do and then they bring in habitat
26:19
and all of that sort of thing, right?
26:21
So are you looking at areas in nature around the world and
26:29
looking, I guess obviously it would have to be more localized.
26:33
We're looking at local species. So you might be, if you've got a
26:37
housing estate that's got loads and loads of concrete and
26:41
minimal grassland and grassed areas, Are we looking at parts
26:45
of nature that have minimal grasses to the species that
26:48
might do well and then saying, OK, let's try and focus on them
26:52
first and then they might introduce something else.
26:55
And then because that population's up, then you'll
26:57
bring the predators in and etc, etc.
27:01
Yeah. So I guess it kind of depends on
27:04
what your end goal is. So if we're say, you know, a lot
27:08
of these housing developments that are going into Melbourne,
27:11
they're going on to land that was previously covered with
27:15
volcanic grasslands, so probably didn't have a lot of large trees
27:20
in the landscape. It was all just kind of
27:22
understory, but like really dense, super diverse.
27:27
So in those kind of places, obviously it'd be great to bring
27:30
back a lot of that grassland vegetation, but we also have to
27:35
think about liveability for people and we're going to need
27:38
trees to provide shade and cooling and, and all the rest of
27:41
it. So you, you're going to need to
27:42
kind of work with a bit of both. But definitely from like an
27:47
animal perspective, if we're trying to pick potential target
27:51
species for a project, we're going to be looking at what used
27:55
to occur in this area prior to development.
27:59
How far away are like recent records for different animals?
28:04
So maybe they've been seeing 3 kilometres down the road and we
28:07
have to think about, well, is it feasible for them to travel that
28:10
far to get to this site if it was restored?
28:13
And if they can travel that far, can they do it safely?
28:17
Is are there corridors that they can move along where that's
28:19
actually going to be possible? So often it's a lot easier if
28:24
we're dealing with birds because they can fly, especially larger
28:28
birds, they can travel pretty long distances.
28:30
But yeah, if we're dealing with something that's on the ground,
28:34
it gets a lot trickier to think about how are they going to
28:37
safely move through the landscape to get back to this
28:40
habitat you're creating? So true.
28:43
I I I imagine finding the data, the records and all of this is
28:48
somewhat difficult in areas or more than others.
28:52
Yeah, that there is. The the amount of records you
28:57
have varies quite a bit depending on where where the
29:00
site is and and the type of animals you're looking for.
29:02
So say in invertebrates, if we're talking native bees,
29:07
butterflies, dragonflies, unfortunately there aren't a lot
29:10
of records a lot of the time because people are unfortunately
29:14
more interested in vertebrates. And.
29:17
I'm partly to blame for that group of people.
29:20
So there's always plenty of records of birds because there's
29:23
so many birders out there, like citizen scientists who just
29:27
happily share what they see. Like I naturalist is a really
29:31
good resource hey. Absolutely.
29:33
Yeah. Yeah.
29:34
So I Naturalist is awesome. So is the Atlas of Living
29:36
Australia. Oh.
29:37
Didn't know that so. That brings, yeah, yeah.
29:40
Look it up. It's really good.
29:41
It's all publicly available. It's got records of any type of
29:44
life that you're interested in. Whether it's fungi through to,
29:49
you know, large mammals, doesn't matter.
29:50
It's all there. Awesome.
29:52
Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah.
29:56
Wow. So thinking about planning an
29:59
area or say, say, for example, there's a plan of a new housing
30:06
development about to go in. How involved are you in the
30:12
process or people like yourself in terms of that that process?
30:18
Are you there plenty of time beforehand to scope out the
30:23
area? You know, gather some data and
30:25
go, OK, this is what we should add to the planning?
30:28
Or are they handing the plan over and saying we've got 500
30:32
houses going in on this square block, Make it better for
30:35
animals? Yeah.
30:37
So that's a always a big issue that we come up against is that
30:43
say in the latter option where they're going, the plans already
30:46
set, there it is. What should we do about animals?
30:51
You're not going to get the best outcomes in that scenario
30:54
because they've pretty much already decided what's happening
30:57
and you've got to try and add in little bits of greenery here and
31:00
there. So definitely, it's always
31:03
better if someone like an ecologist is involved from the
31:07
get go so that you can have those conversations with the
31:11
developers or the landowner or whoever to kind of say, you
31:14
know, what are your visions for this development?
31:18
Where are we heading? What do you want to achieve?
31:19
What are the types of species that you'd like to see in this
31:22
landscape? And we can kind of think about
31:24
what's feasible, what they can afford financially in terms of
31:29
creating habitat. And then we can actually, yeah,
31:33
kind of strategically position things within their plan to try
31:38
and make sure that everything is connected and it's actually
31:40
going to work. Yeah, that's right.
31:43
You need to have, I imagine you need to have Someone Like You
31:47
said from the get go that's working with planners because
31:51
that's it's part of town planning.
31:53
It's part of the planning is to now start thinking about the
31:57
impact that this area is going to have on the wildlife or the
32:00
natural world and then what we can can do about it.
32:04
But that's it's leaving it in the hands of, you know, the big
32:08
companies, the big developers, the all of this.
32:12
What about if, say I had bought myself a little block of land in
32:18
suburbia and I had a fresh patch in the middle of suburbia,
32:23
right. Your neighborhood is what it is.
32:25
It's already established, it's been there.
32:27
And I've got a piece of land or even a previous house.
32:30
I've bought a house and, and there's a house on the land.
32:32
What can, what could I do or somebody do to bring more
32:37
biodiversity into that that space or just to think about the
32:42
wildlife in general? Yeah, there's assuming you have
32:48
a garden. Yeah, Well, exactly, yes.
32:51
Let's say you have a garden. So there's a stack of really
32:54
great programs out there which are generally free to
32:58
participate in. So here in Victoria we have
33:01
something called Gardens for Wildlife, which is rolled out in
33:04
local councils. And basically you sign up and
33:07
some people come out who generally have some kind of
33:10
expertise in indigenous plants and horticulture.
33:14
And they'll talk to you about kind of the, the space that you
33:17
have, you know, the aspect if there's any kind of things that
33:21
they think will grow particularly well or, or that.
33:25
And then they'll come up with some suggestions for what you
33:27
could be planting and where to position different things.
33:32
And it's all done with this idea of getting more indigenous
33:35
vegetation back and doing it in a way that it's going to provide
33:39
habitat and resources for wildlife.
33:41
So as the homeowner, you might be saying, oh, I really want to
33:44
see more native bees. And they can suggest things that
33:47
might work really well to bring some of those native bees into
33:50
your garden. Or often people are really keen
33:53
to have say like small Bush birds come back to their garden.
33:56
So they might be suggesting different shrubs or or ways that
34:00
you can kind of provide for them.
34:02
So that's an awesome thing that you can tap into if it exists
34:06
where you live. What happens if you don't have a
34:08
garden? Because I presume like I have,
34:11
you know, I'm all about gardening.
34:12
So you're right. Native species bring in other
34:16
native species brings in the biodiversity that was meant to
34:19
be there in the land in the first place.
34:21
But like, is there even anything someone can do if they live in a
34:26
unit or a flat in an apartment or a high rise?
34:29
Like is there anything that you can do to try and bring in
34:32
species? I have a little bird feeder or
34:34
bed bath on your balcony or something.
34:37
Yeah, definitely. So if you, if you have a
34:38
balcony, you can have potted plants.
34:41
Yes. So I would be suggesting having
34:44
potted kind of, you know, small flowering natives.
34:48
They're not everything is going to grow super well in a pot if
34:51
it's an Australian native, But you know, trial and error figure
34:55
figure out what's going to work for your local area.
34:57
And absolutely bird baths are awesome.
35:00
So even if you're on a balcony and you live in like a high rise
35:04
situation, unless it's some enormously tall building, you're
35:08
still going to have birds that are that are flying past that
35:11
might stop and have a drink, have a bath.
35:14
So absolutely they will still use bird baths even if it's a
35:17
small balcony. Yeah, because like in a city
35:19
where there's a lot of concrete, there is not much water.
35:22
So. So then having like insects need
35:25
to drink, which I like forgot or just didn't think about, you
35:30
know, like you just say everything needs to drink.
35:32
So it's kind of having these little areas of water or little
35:36
reservoirs or things that you can use to provide that food and
35:39
water and shelter or whatever it might be to the, to the animals
35:42
and, and things like this. It's, it's a no brainer really.
35:45
It's a simple one that you can do.
35:50
Let's talk about your research a little bit.
35:52
OK, So you're, you spend a lot of time researching.
35:55
Is that right? Is that kind of like your main,
35:57
main thing at the moment? And what are you, what are you
36:00
research? What are you sit down when you
36:02
sit down to go, I'm going to research something today or a
36:05
project or whatever it is. I mean, it's probably directed
36:08
by funding and what you guys are all working together as, but
36:11
what are you guys actually studying at the moment and
36:16
what's a typical sort of day like for research in your field?
36:21
Yeah. So that's a big question.
36:25
Yes, I am. I am working in research, but I
36:28
also do quite a lot of consulting through my role at
36:32
RMIT. Cool.
36:34
So that's kind of where we're engaging directly with
36:37
developers and landscape architects and urban designers
36:41
who want a bit more kind of biodiversity input, I guess on
36:45
on the kinds of things that they're creating, the different
36:49
urban spaces. So that's kind of one part of
36:52
what I do in terms of research side of things.
36:56
I'm actually currently writing a grant which is due on Monday,
37:00
which is very scary. But the, the whole idea behind
37:04
it is we want to try and bring some of these small woodland
37:08
birds back to the suburbs of Melbourne.
37:10
So the birds that people are often really keen to see in
37:14
their gardens and we know that they're, they're not doing super
37:17
well. They've been declining for
37:18
several decades. So we're proposing to partner
37:22
with a whole bunch of different councils to try and get out into
37:26
urban parks and trial different, you know, management actions
37:32
that might help to bring some of these little birds back.
37:36
And then kind of survey them over several years to kind of
37:39
track, you know, where where they're turning up and, and what
37:42
might be attracting them to certain areas or kind of
37:46
limiting them from going into other areas of Melbourne.
37:49
So I guess that's one thing that I've been working on a lot
37:53
recently. Yeah.
37:54
Yeah, that's cool. And, and you have to think about
37:58
like, I imagine when, as you say, monitoring this long term,
38:03
so you have an idea, you implement the idea.
38:06
And it strikes me that people would be wanting something quite
38:12
quickly, something tangible where you can be like, look,
38:16
within a year we doubled the population and now they're
38:19
thriving. And you go, well, actually it's
38:20
not as simple as that. We need a five year, 10 year
38:24
kind of progression and also at the same time enormous factory
38:29
just opened down the road that's providing all this pollution to
38:32
the area. So that's factored into this or
38:36
the population of the area has changed or whatever in terms of
38:40
human population, the impacts and these types of things.
38:43
So do you, do you get given a little bit of leeway and cut
38:49
some slack in terms of like let's give this a bit of a long
38:52
term kind of long term data? Yeah, it's, it is really hard
38:56
because often if you're applying for funding say from like the
39:00
Australian federal government, you might be looking at like a
39:03
three-year project. And in ecology you might not see
39:08
much change in three years. Like it takes time for, for
39:12
species to move around the landscape.
39:14
And, and like you were saying earlier, with succession,
39:16
succession doesn't happen overnight.
39:18
Like things are slowly changing. So this particular project we're
39:23
hope like we are applying for for five years and that's kind
39:26
of the maximum that you're allowed.
39:29
But obviously, yeah, longer term would be so much better if we
39:33
can, say, establish some sites that are surveyed for the next
39:36
10 years that that would be much better data to be able to know,
39:40
you know, what birds are actually doing in our suburbs.
39:43
Yeah, cool, cool, cool. One thing just going again back
39:49
to your like the research side of things, how much of this is,
39:56
I guess a general thing for a researcher in general, like
39:59
general question how how much of it is dictated by what you can
40:04
get funding for or not? Because I I presume that, you
40:10
know, a lot of these things are expensive.
40:11
You got to go out and test these things.
40:13
You you need the money, you need the funding to be able to do
40:15
them and. You're not necessarily getting
40:19
all of these philanthropist style people that will come in
40:23
and back it and put money, money to it.
40:25
So you're kind of at mercy of what people are happy to give
40:30
you money for, whether it's the, you know, university, the
40:33
government, whatever it might be.
40:35
Is there room for you to move and wiggle around what they do?
40:39
Or is it, are you kind of going, this is the idea is what we want
40:42
to test, can we get the funding for it and then you go ahead
40:46
with it. And then second part to that
40:48
question, are you juggling like 15 different ideas that you're
40:51
trying to throw at them and see which one gets funding?
40:55
So I at my, I'm considered early career.
40:59
So I finished my PhD last year. Cool.
41:03
So at my career stage. Oh, thank you.
41:05
Yeah. At my career stage, yeah.
41:09
You're absolutely kind of just trying to see what people will
41:12
fund. Yeah, Once you become more
41:16
senior in your field, like say a professor at a university, by
41:21
that point you're not, your salary is paid by the UNI at
41:26
that stage. But for me, at the moment, I'm.
41:28
Is that concerned? Yeah.
41:30
What what we might call tenure, they use that term in the US For
41:34
me, my salary comes from external funding.
41:38
So if we don't get that funding, I don't have a job.
41:41
Whereas once you have Tanya, you can kind of do whatever you like
41:46
because the university is saying we trust you, we like what you
41:49
do, keep doing it. And then at that stage you kind
41:52
of just chase whatever avenues interesting to you.
41:56
But yeah, for the early Korea folks, we are very much just
41:59
figuring out what does the government want more research
42:02
on. Cool, let's try that.
42:04
Yeah, cool. Because like, yes, you getting
42:07
paid is one part of it. So like you have to get paid
42:11
from that funding versus the university paying, but you still
42:14
need the money to actually pay for the project itself, like
42:18
whether you need to buy in trees, plants, whether you're
42:21
building certain things, whatever.
42:23
So is that money coming out of university for a tenured
42:27
professor or is it coming out of the budget for the research?
42:31
Like if they're let, like if you get to the point where you're
42:33
tenured and you can just choose what you what your heart
42:36
desires, how do you go, Hey, like my, my heart desires
42:41
something very expensive. Can can I have some money?
42:44
Like how does that work? You you would need to source
42:48
that funding from outside the UNI.
42:50
So you might partner with other organizations and they might
42:53
say, sure, we'll Chuck in 3000 seedlings for you.
42:57
There you go. Or, or whatever it is that you
42:59
need. Yeah.
43:01
So that's where you kind of see those collaborations forming
43:04
between the university and and other people who are, they're
43:08
all kind of putting in something to the project.
43:10
Yeah, OK, that makes a lot more sense.
43:12
But it's it must be difficult when you might have an idea or a
43:16
passion or something where you go.
43:18
I can see a lot of, you know, potential in this type of area.
43:22
But then either you're the only one that sees that, or there's
43:26
like, they just don't see the benefit or there's no funding.
43:29
So you must have to work really hard to put together a pitch
43:33
that's like, yes, hey, this is important, like, and This is
43:36
why. Yep, Yep, absolutely.
43:38
So that's what I've been working on the last few weeks is trying
43:41
to say like, how do we like write this in a way that people
43:45
go, yes, this is good and these people should be funded to be
43:48
able to go out and do this. So it's about like for for my
43:52
field. It's like explaining the
43:55
potential benefits for birds, but then also explaining the
43:58
benefits for people, because often that's what people care
44:02
about is, well, how's it going to affect me or my community or
44:05
whatever. So, yeah, it's been like kind of
44:09
looking into the research that's been published around the
44:12
benefits of bird watching or the benefits of having more
44:15
biodiversity in your street or your neighborhood.
44:17
And, and luckily there is quite a bit of research on that, but
44:20
it's, yeah, slightly adjacent to my field, I guess.
44:23
Yeah, that's really like, it's strange how that works, Hey,
44:25
because you've got to, you've got to pitch to their interests.
44:29
So they might not care. Like they might be maybe not
44:34
care, but they might be focused on other things.
44:36
And but they're like, they don't necessarily notice having one
44:41
bird species or 4 bird species and what difference that is to
44:45
the, the land but or to the bird, but what difference does
44:50
it make to them? And you might like, you might
44:53
have to come up with certain stories that connect with people
44:56
or just like reasons that are going to target their
44:58
heartstrings or something. And, and go, hey, like this is
45:01
it, but backed with, you know, data and all of this kind of
45:04
thing. So, you know, becoming a bit of
45:06
a you, you got to convince these people to, to care about
45:11
something that they might not necessarily care about.
45:14
Do you find that? Do you find that to, like, do
45:18
you find that takes away at all from, from the, the research you
45:21
got to do? Or is it make what you're doing
45:24
have to adapt into a different mold that might take it away
45:27
from its initial inspiration or or meaning and purpose?
45:32
Yeah, I guess it's you have to think about how you communicate
45:37
what you do in a lot of different ways, like depending
45:41
on who you're speaking to. And it is definitely time
45:44
consuming. It takes away from other tasks
45:46
that you could be doing or should be doing.
45:48
But it's just a reality. And unfortunately, it's very
45:53
much how things work if you're in any kind of environmental
45:57
science in Australia, that we don't have a particularly
46:00
environmentally minded government.
46:02
So we have to, yeah, work really hard to convince people to fund
46:07
what we do. As opposed to say, I don't know
46:10
someone who works in medical research where the benefits are
46:14
super obvious and you know, it looks really great on paper no
46:19
matter what they write, because they're going to be saving
46:21
lives. It's it's hard.
46:22
Yeah. And I and imagine that when when
46:26
we talk about things that they might be able to get out of it,
46:29
like the benefits, they sort of say what's in it for me with
46:32
something like a, a medical establishment, they've got some
46:37
sort of kickback that they might be able to make which generates
46:40
money for the economy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
46:43
When you're saying, hey, let's bring back a self-sustaining
46:48
system that makes people happier and need less from their
46:52
government, etcetera, they might not be so thrilled to push that
46:57
because they're not getting as much kickback.
46:59
But that's just a that's just a thought I have.
47:03
Anyway, yeah, let's move on a little bit.
47:09
Where is the research going for you and what's your goal in
47:15
terms of like, where do you see yourself going with all of this?
47:21
Yeah. Tough questions, I know, tough
47:24
question, but I like to kind of think like give you something to
47:28
kind of go, either I hadn't thought of that or I hadn't
47:32
really kind of done that, or some people know exactly where
47:35
they're going and it's really interesting to relate to
47:37
different, different thought patterns.
47:40
Yeah, I guess like one of the big things that came out of my
47:44
PhD that I still think about a lot is the role of noisy miners.
47:49
And it's something that I think we we really need more research
47:55
into to fully understand what those birds are doing in cities.
48:01
So that's something that I definitely want to try and
48:03
pursue. OK, well, why them?
48:06
Why them? What are they?
48:07
What's so cool about them? Yeah, why noisy miners?
48:11
OK, so noisy miners are a native honeyeater.
48:16
So they do belong here in Melbourne, but are also up in
48:19
Brisbane. They have been there, been there
48:23
for as long, as long as we're aware of.
48:26
But what they have done over many, many generations as we've
48:31
been building cities is they've really kind of increased in
48:34
number to the point where they, they occur at super high
48:37
densities. Like there's heaps of them
48:39
packed into one little area. And that works really well for
48:43
them because they're super happy to live in groups.
48:45
You, you rarely see them on their own.
48:47
They've always got friends and family and then move around
48:50
together and there's heaps of stuff for them to eat in cities.
48:54
So they they're a bit bit of a weird honey eater because they
48:59
don't just feed on nectar from flowers.
49:02
They will also eat some insects and one of their main food
49:06
sources, at least here in Melbourne, is a little insect
49:09
called a psyllid, which they create this little kind of
49:14
sticky casing which will be stuck to the underside of a gum
49:17
leaf. And they are everywhere, like on
49:21
all of our street trees in Melbourne, in all the parks,
49:25
absolutely everywhere. So there's stacks for them to
49:28
eat, which means that they've just kind of increased in number
49:31
so that we've got this huge population of noisy miners.
49:34
And what like the reason that's an issue for a native bird is
49:39
because they can be really, really territorial.
49:43
And once they get established in say, a park or your backyard or
49:47
wherever it is, they will just take over and they'll push all
49:51
the other birds out. And suddenly everything else
49:54
that could have been using that space has to find somewhere new
49:57
to live. And you know, over time they're
50:00
the amount of space that they have is really decreasing with,
50:04
you know, noisy miners, but also all the development that we're
50:07
doing in cities. So I think it's it's a really
50:11
interesting kind of system in that, you know, we're
50:16
continually changing the environment in the way that
50:19
we're developing more houses and clearing vegetation.
50:22
But then you've also got this native species that's seems to
50:26
be having a massive impact on the other birds that can live in
50:29
that area. So I think if we're going to get
50:32
really good outcomes for bringing biodiversity back, we
50:36
also need to be dealing with the noisy minor as well.
50:39
But it's it's a super difficult thing because they're protected
50:45
under federal law as a native animal.
50:48
So it's not like we can go out and just start killing them.
50:51
Not that I think we should because it's not their fault,
50:56
but yeah, we have to find a way that's going to kind of reduce
50:59
their numbers a little bit so that some of our other birds can
51:04
still coexist with them, because at the moment they're just
51:06
everywhere and super problematic.
51:09
Yeah, and, and like for a rat, for example, that's easy to
51:13
convince somebody, hey, we've got too many rats, we need to
51:17
bring in something that's a predator or something to balance
51:19
it out or, or whatever. But when, yeah, when it's a
51:22
native species that is protected, it's kind of like
51:26
you've got nowhere to go with it.
51:28
And yeah, yeah. Do they have any any predators
51:31
of like that that would naturally take them out or like
51:35
cats? They do like, yeah, cats, cats
51:38
are probably a big one that's not a natural predator, but
51:44
like, like they would be eaten by owls or something.
51:47
If an owl was lucky enough to find one, obviously they're
51:50
awake at different times of the day, so they'd have to find a
51:52
nest store or something, find where they're sleeping.
51:57
But beyond that, probably not a lot of of native predators, you
52:03
know that we don't have anything in our cities that's like on the
52:07
ground, say like dingoes, for example.
52:10
We don't have them in this part of Australia.
52:13
At least there there's nothing that's going to be roaming
52:16
around and eating, you know, a, a small bird.
52:20
So it's really tricky. There's nothing to keep it in
52:23
check. No, just mentioning cats like
52:28
domestic animals must be a huge consideration for you as well.
52:34
Like it's not only that we live in cities and things like this.
52:38
Nearly everybody has a pet of some sort seemingly.
52:45
Me too. And you know, got 2 beautiful
52:47
dogs and like my German Shepherd natural hunting instinct loves
52:54
to go and chase around some of the birds when he sees them.
52:56
And as much as I try to, you know, take the make sure that he
53:01
doesn't, if I'm not watching him, he might chase one.
53:04
And he's just lucky that he's a little slow and silly.
53:08
But he, you know, these these animals that we're trying to
53:12
bring in and bring back biodiversity and things like
53:14
that. We're also trying to have them
53:18
Co inhabit areas that have domesticated killers like like
53:23
dogs and cats. Absolutely, yeah.
53:25
Yeah. So how much of that is in your
53:28
thought process with those types of things too?
53:31
Yeah, yeah. So cats definitely are something
53:35
that I think about a lot. I I am a cat owner.
53:38
I, I really love them as a domestic pet, but they do not
53:45
belong on our streets. They don't belong in our parks.
53:48
They belong solely in your house.
53:49
So certainly if we're thinking about trying to bring birds back
53:55
to any kind of urban area, there's going to be massive
53:59
predation risk from free roaming domestic cats, whether they are
54:02
owned or feral, living on the streets.
54:05
So it's something that a lot of councils that we've been talking
54:09
to are really aware of and some of them are looking at bringing
54:12
in things like cat containment policies.
54:15
So that would mean that residents would either have
54:17
their have to keep their cats indoors.
54:20
Sometimes it's only at night, sometimes it's only during the
54:23
day, sometimes it's 24/7. I, I don't know why it isn't
54:27
just 24/7, but anyway, yeah, so I think things like that are
54:32
definitely going to play a role. So you could create a really
54:35
lovely patch of habitat and, you know, somehow exclude things
54:39
like noisy minors. But if you've got cats moving
54:42
through that area all the time, your, your little native birds
54:46
are just not going to be able to cope because they're going to be
54:48
dealing with constant risks of getting eaten.
54:51
So yes, cat containment is a big one for dogs, it's a little bit
54:55
different. So they they weren't actually,
54:58
in most cases they won't actually catch and kill native
55:02
animals. They just want to chase them.
55:04
It's just a bit of fun. But like your German Shepherd,
55:07
so it's a game. Yeah, Yeah.
55:09
So they, they're not having that direct impact in terms of kind
55:13
of eating them, but they're definitely creating what people
55:16
call landscapes of fear. So it's the this idea that, you
55:20
know, the local dog park is a terrifying place if you're a
55:24
bird. And you're probably going to
55:25
avoid that area entirely because it's full of these, you know,
55:29
predators running around like crazy.
55:32
So it means that you're kind of further restricting the amount
55:35
of habitat that's available if they're then going, well, that
55:38
patch isn't suitable because it's full of dogs.
55:42
So yeah, I guess it that comes back to having things like dogs
55:46
on lead policies if we're out in public space.
55:50
And then, yeah, having defined areas that are kind of a fenced
55:54
off lead area. And that's the only place where
55:57
your dog is running around like crazy to try and limit their
56:01
impacts, I guess. Yeah, that is a really tricky
56:04
one. I noticed, you know, in my
56:05
travels, I've been lucky enough to go overseas and things like
56:09
this and in areas of Europe, like for example, in Greece and
56:13
Turkey, when we, we visited, there's so many cats everywhere,
56:18
like everywhere. And even on, you know, we're in
56:22
Santorini and it's an island and there's feral cats.
56:27
Like, I don't like using the word feral, but just like cats
56:30
that are living off the land and they are, Yep, everywhere.
56:33
And like how, you know, in something like that you're,
56:37
you're up against trying to battle this, that nobody looks
56:41
after them. Nobody's like, this is my cat.
56:43
I'm going to keep it indoors. It's like these cats just roam
56:46
around and do what they please. So they are impacting the, the,
56:50
the native land and in Asian countries, there's lots of like
56:54
dogs and, and things everywhere all over the streets.
56:57
And they're looking for food and there's, they're certainly not
57:00
gonna, you know, discriminate between some of the species.
57:03
We're just lucky, I guess, that we don't find that here as much,
57:07
right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
57:09
So that that's very much like it.
57:11
It's a cultural thing that, and from what I understand, we also
57:14
see it a lot in the UK that people have this kind of
57:18
cultural connection to having free roaming neighborhood cats.
57:21
They kind of see it as this really positive thing and like,
57:23
oh, that's lovely. I go and pat that cat, you know,
57:26
on my way to work or whatever. But they, they don't think about
57:29
how all of those free roaming predators are impacting
57:32
wildlife. And I guess UK is a bit
57:35
different because they don't have as much wildlife left,
57:38
unfortunately. But yeah, like we, we are super
57:42
lucky in that there's this kind of a lot more awareness or, or
57:46
almost like social pressure here, that if that's your
57:50
animal, you need to look after it and be a responsible pet
57:53
owner. And that means that your dog's
57:55
in the lead and hopefully your cat is contained at least some
57:58
of the time. Yeah.
58:00
Do you think that's because we have a unique flora and fauna
58:05
here in Australia and it it the the emphasis on quarantine
58:11
protection, Environmental Protection and all of that is a
58:14
bit bigger here. Do you think that adds in maybe?
58:17
Potentially, yeah, yeah like we we are fairly strict on that for
58:22
for good reason. And so is like say New Zealand
58:27
they're they're also very strict on on quarantine and that kind
58:30
of thing. But I I think they also have a
58:33
lot of issues with domestic cats eating wildlife, so.
58:36
Yeah, true. One, OK, last, last thing that I
58:39
want to touch on, on on the impact that we have as human
58:42
beings that I was going to mention earlier, but lost track.
58:45
We, yeah, so much today in a modern society using chemicals,
58:53
I'll use that word, sprays, whatever it might be.
59:00
How much of an impact is the management of the area, whether
59:05
it be from the person themselves spraying the Roundup for their
59:09
weeds on their front lawn or driveway, whatever, versus the
59:13
council going and spraying things or just general petrol
59:18
fumes and all of this pollution that we're bringing in?
59:22
How much of that are you trying to work with councils and things
59:28
to say, look, that's a really big impact on the insects that
59:33
we see in all of this plant life.
59:35
Are you talking about these kinds of things with them, and
59:38
how much of it is a consideration?
59:40
Yeah, things like insecticide and pesticides always come up.
59:45
If we're talking about, say, implementing biodiversity
59:49
sensitive urban design somewhere, because absolutely
59:52
it's going to, it's going to take out any native
59:54
invertebrates that you've got in that area, which is obviously
59:57
really bad for them. But then it's also going to have
1:00:00
kind of impacts further up the food chain.
1:00:02
So anything that's feeding on those insects then doesn't have
1:00:05
anything to eat. So whether that's birds,
1:00:07
microbats are a big one, yeah. Micro bats are so cool and no
1:00:12
one ever sees them, but they're these little tiny native bats
1:00:15
that are flying around everywhere at night and
1:00:17
especially in cities, and they eat insects, they help control
1:00:21
mosquito populations. They do heaps of cool stuff.
1:00:24
But yeah, if we've got lots of insecticide and pesticide,
1:00:28
there's just nothing for those bats to eat and they're not
1:00:30
going to be able to survive there.
1:00:31
So it's definitely something that comes up.
1:00:36
It's really hard though, because then in some cases you're
1:00:38
talking about influencing what people do on their own private
1:00:41
land. And people can be very
1:00:43
protective about their yeah, freedoms, to use an American
1:00:48
word to kind of do whatever they want on their land, which, you
1:00:52
know, fair enough. But it it has flow on effects
1:00:56
like animals don't care where your property boundary ends and.
1:01:00
Your neighbors totally and like. It's irrelevant.
1:01:03
The fence line or the boundary line is irrelevant.
1:01:06
You're connected on the same piece of earth like it connects
1:01:09
under the ground and you know, Yep, presumably somewhere
1:01:13
connects country to country underground and under the
1:01:15
oceans, and we're all on the same flying rock around the sun.
1:01:19
So, you know, like it's it is I, I get it.
1:01:22
You want your personal freedom and autonomy, but something, you
1:01:25
know, that's something I'm battling a lot as well in
1:01:28
gardens is, is insecticides, pesticides, general chemicals
1:01:31
and things like this. Glyphosate.
1:01:33
Yeah. We're trying to minimize all of
1:01:35
this usage because it has that flow on effect.
1:01:39
Yeah. And even like, for instance, I'm
1:01:42
a culprit of this too. I've done this before where I
1:01:44
would we have chickens and it meant that there's some rats
1:01:48
around. So I would put out some baits in
1:01:50
previous years. And then I'm like, and then I
1:01:52
found out that the rat might get the bait and it's eating it.
1:01:55
And then you get these second secondary, you know, poisons.
1:01:59
And you second generation poisoning that's.
1:02:02
It code yes and and I'm and I'm just feeling awful like not only
1:02:06
because I've harmed an animal and in a rat in that way like,
1:02:10
you know yes they're a pest, but also I don't want to be killing
1:02:13
anything if I don't have to yes. And then we're getting to a
1:02:17
point of yeah, like you're getting these secondary poisons.
1:02:19
The birds are being affected and it's it's just one of these
1:02:23
things that yes, you could probably have a really
1:02:26
beautifully designed neighborhood city that has all
1:02:31
of these ecological areas and bringing back all this
1:02:33
biodiversity. But if then we're going and
1:02:36
spraying everything that's going to kill them or whatever, we're
1:02:39
just undoing or just blocking ourselves in that instance and,
1:02:45
and going back to that three to five year type of thing, it's
1:02:48
like, yeah, well, how much pesticide was used in this area?
1:02:52
And that's probably why all the insects aren't coming back and
1:02:56
you're juggling that kind of thing so much.
1:03:00
Yeah, yeah. So that's why, like community
1:03:04
outreach and education is so important in urban ecology, so
1:03:08
much more so than I think any other field of ecology, because
1:03:12
there are so many people that are living here and they all
1:03:14
have their own little patch and they're all going to want to
1:03:17
manage that in different ways. So we need to be doing
1:03:21
everything we can to kind of communicate the benefits of
1:03:24
avoiding pesticides or rat poison or whatever it is so that
1:03:29
we're kind of bringing people along on this journey that
1:03:32
everyone's kind of more or less on the same page.
1:03:34
Hopefully you can change some minds and and yeah, get some
1:03:38
better outcomes at the end. Yeah, the more people that are
1:03:41
on board, the better, right? I suppose, like, you can't
1:03:43
convince everybody, but at least if the majority end up trying to
1:03:48
be conscious about all of these things, then it's going to have
1:03:51
a majority effect in terms of being positive in general.
1:03:56
Because everyone's, yeah, everyone's working together.
1:03:59
Yeah. And like in some of the some of
1:04:01
the developments that I've been able to kind of have input on.
1:04:05
So there's one that's being put in by a developer called
1:04:08
Nightingale. So they tried to do really kind
1:04:11
of low cost housing that's kind of higher density living.
1:04:15
So we're talking townhouses close together, but they're
1:04:18
doing it in a way that does still incorporate greening and
1:04:21
biodiversity and that and that kind of thing.
1:04:23
And what they tend to see is the people that actually you can
1:04:27
choose to live in these developments are probably more
1:04:31
nature minded as a get go. So that that also helps when the
1:04:37
type of people that are choosing to move into these spaces are
1:04:40
already kind of on your side. Yeah, you're definitely right.
1:04:44
And I think like exposure to these things makes you care more
1:04:47
or like we were saying before, like it it really has to matter
1:04:51
to the person individually to do something about it.
1:04:54
You can't just go, hey, look, this small town over in this
1:05:00
area that you've never heard of before and whatever there's a
1:05:03
species of bird that you know isn't doing so well, can you do
1:05:07
something about it? Like they're not going to bat an
1:05:09
eyelid at that kind of thing. And we see that so often with
1:05:14
that disconnect. They're just, or even this is
1:05:18
like, this surprises me a little bit.
1:05:20
I don't know whether how you feel about this kind of thing,
1:05:22
but the, you know, doing things for our future generations, like
1:05:27
thinking about the kids with my kids with my kids, like they've
1:05:31
got to live somewhere. And do we want to leave behind
1:05:35
something that's just like falling apart because it doesn't
1:05:39
impact me. It's like, oh, I'll be dead.
1:05:41
It doesn't matter. Like they can figure it out.
1:05:43
Yeah. There's so many people that
1:05:45
don't really mind what happens post their life and this is a
1:05:51
long game we're playing, trying to play the long game for
1:05:53
generations to come and changing that mindset I guess isn't
1:05:58
difficult thing. It is, it's really difficult.
1:06:02
And I guess my hope is that through, you know, the, the
1:06:07
challenges that we're going to face with climate change, that
1:06:10
people might start to realize that that your kids, kids kids
1:06:14
are going to be living in a really different climate to what
1:06:17
we were born into. And if they are starting to
1:06:21
think, you know, generation generationally, then maybe they
1:06:25
can apply that same thinking to nature and, and biodiversity
1:06:28
restoration as well to think, OK, well, I'm going to go plant
1:06:32
a tree and it's not going to be mature for 150 years, but
1:06:36
someone else will enjoy it then. Exactly that.
1:06:39
That's that like proverb saying or whatever it is, isn't it?
1:06:43
That plant a tree for someone else to sit under?
1:06:47
Yeah, this is that. That's amazing.
1:06:49
Let me ask, but one last thing. If someone is interested in what
1:06:54
they've heard today from you, how do you get into working in
1:07:00
this space? Is it going through ecology
1:07:04
degrees and how many sort of different points of entry or
1:07:08
places that they can come to find out more about it are
1:07:10
there? Yeah.
1:07:12
So yes, I would recommend that if you're interested in urban
1:07:17
ecology, you look at going to university.
1:07:20
Unfortunately, it is often a key.
1:07:23
Key part it is. What it is?
1:07:25
So yeah, it is what it is. So not all universities will
1:07:30
have something called, you know, a bachelor of ecology or
1:07:33
something. They, they often go by different
1:07:34
names. It could be environmental
1:07:36
science, could be biological science.
1:07:39
My degree was actually called wildlife and conservation my
1:07:43
undergrad. So it had quite a specific
1:07:46
attractive name from the get go, which I loved.
1:07:50
But yeah, it it goes by different names.
1:07:52
So basically you, you want to be studying something that is going
1:07:55
to cover both botany and zoology and you can kind of specialized
1:08:00
as you go, whether you're more of an animal person, more of a
1:08:02
plant person. Yeah.
1:08:05
And then I guess for me, I kind of continued on and, and went
1:08:09
down the research path. So I did an honours year and
1:08:11
then a PhD. That's crazy and that's a lot of
1:08:14
studying, isn't it? It is.
1:08:16
It is a lot. Yeah, but like, you know, I'm so
1:08:20
impressed by everything that you're doing and I'm so glad
1:08:23
that we got to have a chat because I think it's like it's a
1:08:26
job that I was kind of unaware of that, you know, exists.
1:08:32
Like it's kind of, but then thinking about it goes that's
1:08:34
that's a a no brainer in terms of somebody like you that we
1:08:39
need. It's saying we're trying to
1:08:41
connect what we're doing on one hand with what the world is
1:08:46
trying or the nature is trying to do.
1:08:48
And we're trying to bring those together in a harmonious way
1:08:51
that provides longevity for both us and the natural world.
1:08:55
Right. Yeah, exactly.
1:08:57
Yeah. And there we have it, ladies and
1:09:16
gentlemen, thank you again for joining us for the conversation.
1:09:20
Thank you so much to Jacinta for her time for expertise and
1:09:25
passion in this area. It's it's really nice to have
1:09:28
people that we look up to in these areas where I find, you
1:09:31
know, I found your center and I thought you are just so
1:09:33
fascinating. You're doing something that's in
1:09:36
an important area that not too many people even think was a
1:09:39
job. Like I mentioned, I don't even
1:09:42
didn't even know that this was something that you can do, but
1:09:45
obviously now it's so obvious. It's important if you want to
1:09:48
keep up with what Jacinta is doing and even if you just want
1:09:52
to go and say, hey, I enjoyed the episode.
1:09:54
Her links will be in the description below her Instagram
1:09:58
and also a link to her booklet that she's put out, which
1:10:01
summarizes her PhD in basically providing better habitats in our
1:10:07
eco, sorry, in our cities and environments that are more
1:10:10
ecologically focused to bringing birds and wildlife back into
1:10:14
there. So if you want to have a read of
1:10:16
that, I highly recommend that link will be in the description
1:10:19
below. But finally from me, if you
1:10:21
haven't checked out any of the organic growers guides on the
1:10:24
website, you can there is a free one for those starting out and
1:10:28
beginning out. So if you haven't seen that
1:10:30
already link is in the description.
1:10:32
And if you're a little bit above the beginner level and you'll
1:10:36
kind of getting into it a little bit more, your understanding is
1:10:39
moving up. I have a much more in depth
1:10:41
intermediate organic growers guide, which goes into so much
1:10:45
more depth, as I said, on all of these different topics, giving
1:10:48
you some tips and tricks about how to really maximize what
1:10:51
you're doing in the garden. That's also available as a link
1:10:55
in the description. Lastly, please give this show or
1:11:01
episode a little review. That could be something like 5
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stars. Obviously five stars.
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Love that five stars to on any of the platforms that you're
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1:11:18
So I know that you're here to stick around for some more, but
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If there's something where you say, Jordan, you are talking too
1:11:27
much, I want to hear from our guests, then send me that
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1:11:34
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1:11:41
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1:11:44
I am so grateful for you for sticking around.
1:11:47
Thank you very much again and I look forward to seeing you on
1:11:50
the next episode. Bye for now.