Latest / Authentic Living / Creating a Shift in Bias with Diversity Expert, Delofante Atkins

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Creating a Shift in Bias with Diversity Expert, Delofante Atkins · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we conscious conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:37
  Hi, Del.
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  How are you today?
• 0:38
  I'm great, Roxanne.
• 0:39
  How are you?
• 0:40
  Good.
• 0:41
  So Della and I have a a a very, very long history.
• 0:44
  And, you know, when, she started she had started employee benefits consulting and we're
• 0:52
  going back quite a while ago and I started in 2000, I believe tell you had come on around
• 0:58
  2004 or 5 or so.
• 1:01
  It was actually about 2008.
• 1:03
  Oh, wow.
• 1:04
  So you see how the time the time goes and you forget the time.
• 1:07
  So since then, obviously, Del brought a lot with her at that point, but she has on and done
• 1:13
  some phenomenal things in, the arena after diversity.
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  So I'm gonna hit the highlights.
• 1:19
  I'm sure, Della, I'm gonna miss a lot, but, you can read her in tire bio, when we, send out the
• 1:24
  promotion for the podcast.
• 1:27
  So telefonte Atkins is a learning and development development leader with the with
• 1:32
  professional experience in the human resources, organizational development, and learning
• 1:36
  spaces.
• 1:37
  She has she's the director of learning equity and engagement, and she's a trusted diversity,
• 1:44
  equity, inclusion, and belonging advisor, which she's involved in a number of initiatives in
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  the corporate business sector as well as ongoing government related projects that that
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  focuses on equity.
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  She has done some amazing things.
• 1:58
  She works, as a part of a committee of 12 for the city of Toronto, confront anti black racism
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  partnerships and accountability circles, representing the interest of black, people
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  living in Toronto, living and working in Toronto.
• 2:13
  She She's a speaker moderator and facilitator, and she leads discussions around the importance
• 2:18
  of equity, in the workplace such as Black on Bay Street and leading for excellence.
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  She guest lectures, across Canada, to different talents, and she's a recipient, which is an
• 2:30
  amazing thing Alex Innovus of, the 2018 top 22 rising stars award from human resources,
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  director Canada.
• 2:40
  Amazing.
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  She you've done so much, Del, since, we've actually been connected.
• 2:45
  Thank you so much, Roxanne.
• 2:47
  So thank you for spending the time.
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  So, you and I could talk, about so many things, but, what I'd like to kind of preface, for the
• 2:58
  listeners is kinda how we met and then we'll talk a little bit about, our backgrounds.
• 3:04
  So, So, Dal and I worked together, at, one of the biggest, which would be probably the
• 3:10
  biggest, health and wellness firm now across North America.
• 3:13
  Where we worked in the capacity of health and wellness strategy, with psychological, and
• 3:20
  emotional benefits that could, impede visibility to, stay actively at work.
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  So we offered services to assist individuals to stay there.
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  And since then, you know, we were talking at just before we got on the line kind of about
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  diversity and the impact that it would have had, on ourselves, something we had never
• 3:41
  chatted about in our capacity back then.
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  So, Dal, so kind of we're gonna jump into that.
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  So I want to just tell people kind of the pivot or I shouldn't even say a pivot, but why why
• 3:55
  you decided to choose this particular element in related to HR to focus and and kind of,
• 4:02
  direct your career in that way.
• 4:05
  Well, first I wanna say thank you so much for having me.
• 4:07
  Talk about this very important discussion Roxanne.
• 4:10
  I agree.
• 4:10
  We've definitely come a long way and to be completely honest, you definitely had an impact
• 4:16
  in terms of, the beginning of my professional journey and understanding what the corporate
• 4:21
  space looked like, what the environment was like, where I fit in or did not fit into that.
• 4:26
  And and why that was.
• 4:28
  And essentially when I started working with you, and supporting you, within our space, I it
• 4:35
  it was very apparent to me that, we we were we were pretty much the only ones.
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  We were the only ones that, were in our space that probably would identify as a person of
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  color.
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  If not that, it was very just a handful of us, in such a large corporate environment, an
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  environment that takes care of people in organizations that advocates for people
• 4:59
  advocates for for wellness and mental health yet.
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  We were part of a very underrepresented group And I I really wanted to understand why that
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  was.
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  And would that be the way the rest of my personal journey, my career journey looked
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  like?
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  And I know that there's a number of phenomenal individuals around me, peers, colleagues, in so
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  many different spaces and in so many different disciplines within the corporate environment.
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  However, I don't see them, and I definitely don't see them at executive levels.
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  And it sparked a bit of curiosity for me to want to explore that a little bit more.
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  And through my function, in other spaces, you know, throughout HR organizational development,
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  there be it was a trend.
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  You know, I continually saw the same things under representation, from people identifying
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  with various diverse groups.
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  And I decided that this is an area of interest for me that, I've always been a little bit of
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  an advocate of sorts to just ensure that there is fairness.
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  There is equity across the board no matter what space I'm in.
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  And I decided that I would, I think, was probably in my best interest, not only for
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  myself, but my community and and and for Canada to, to shed some light on that and and to make
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  some positive changes in this area.
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  Amazing.
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  You know?
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  So I I think I'm gonna I'm gonna give you my perspective on on when we work together in kind
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  of the frame.
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  So, of course, you know, I was an executive, and I was in that position.
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  You're right.
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  I was probably not only, you know, the only, non white individual at that corporate
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  executive table, but I I didn't think about it back then.
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  You know, it's interesting.
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  Now I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, wow.
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  That that is so true.
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  I hadn't thought about it.
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  And, Dela and I worked together, and I hadn't really thought about it then, but I think about
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  some of the barriers that ex that were there, but because I I'm gonna say it had a blind spot
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  or it had an invisible air or eye to it, I did perceive it from that perspective, but now in
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  retrospect, I realized that, there were things that, stopped me probably from developing in
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  certain because there was not the focus on diversity at that time.
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  And I would totally agree with you.
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  I think it was even if it was, you know, 10, 20 years ago, it was a little bit of a different
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  time.
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  There was as there wasn't as much attention paid, you, you know, to the topic of diversity
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  or inclusion back then.
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  However, the issues were there.
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  The issues were there, which has led to this movement, at this point where, you know, there
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  was recognition of some of those barriers, some of the systemic barriers, some of the very
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  subtle and even unconscious, barriers and biases that, has have existed since we've been
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  working in this environment and and in this country, And that has, yes, in some ways
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  impeded our growth, and us achieving our full potential.
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  And so now I'm very happy that there's a a lot more awareness about this.
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  And that we are working towards making some real change in this area.
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  So let's let's kind of talk about really I mean, I'm gonna tell you what I thought I
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  experienced And because like I said, I had the, I, I, I kind of said, you know, I'm different,
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  but I don't people don't perceive me as different.
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  This is how I looked at it, Dell, which is tell you kind where my mental was in in, in 2000
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  when I joined.
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  And I always kind of, you know, kinda if there was a if there was a barrier, I didn't perceive
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  it as if I just figured, how could I work harder?
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  You know, so if that was a, you know, an account that I was having difficulty with or if
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  I was needing support or those I just used my professional background to work harder, which I
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  know sometimes that's not always the case.
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  Right?
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  Like, it may be, you know, you could bring every possible credential or experience with
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  you, but there's barriers of this actually still exists.
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  That stops people from getting it into a particular position.
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  So tell me what what's happening out there, not just in Toronto, but just kind of globe, like
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  within Canada or even globally with, diversity, compared to say maybe when I was you know,
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  starting in my corporate career in 2000.
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  So I think that's a great question, Roxanne.
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  I think there's 1st and foremost a lot more awareness.
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  I think people are starting to stand up and speak up and say, you know what?
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  My experience in the workplace isn't as deal.
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  Isn't as ideal as it should be.
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  I look around and I see my peers, and I do see unfair advantages that my peers have that don't
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  identify with me.
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  And whether that is from a gender perspective, whether that's from a racialized perspective,
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  it could be from an orientation perspective, a religious perspective, so many different
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  identities that even abilities, right, that that, make up who we are.
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  Some individuals have a little bit privilege than we do, and some of that privilege isn't
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  intentional per se.
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  Some of it is very systemic, and it's been like that for a while.
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  And so because of that, and we're working hard and and women as, for example, are graduating
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  from post secondary institutions at a much higher and and faster rate than even our male
• 10:08
  counterparts.
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  However, we, our career trajectories don't, don't reflect that.
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  We're not moving up as fast as we should be.
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  We're not attaining, the higher levels of of responsibility and positions that we could be
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  that were even qualified to do.
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  And even more so, we're not earning.
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  We're not earning, the same amount as our our male peers or our male counterparts.
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  And that even, The gap even widens when we incorporate, race and ability, etcetera, that
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  that gap even gets worse.
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  So in paying attention to this and understanding this, there's become more of an
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  awareness as people have been starting to share their lived experiences about what, what they
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  go through in the workplace and how that affects, you know, their self esteem that
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  affects their confidence affects their access to opportunities, and they're starting to say
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  things need to change.
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  So we've noticed that there have been diversity movements that have come to play we're starting
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  to incorporate that into policy all the way from a macro level inside organizations to
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  them.
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  Sorry, micro level inside organizations to a macro level.
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  From the government spearheading initiatives and and making it a a a core objective to
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  ensure that, there is inclusion across the board, within various sectors.
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  And so, very specific examples is there's a more attention paid to, conscious and
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  unconscious biases, the emotional tax that, that happens.
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  Within the workplace, and the effect, direct effect on mental health where there's
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  individuals that feel like they have to try harder, but they're burning out because they
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  have to try harder than others.
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  Microaggressions, are are being highlighted as well.
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  Those slights and and passive aggressive jabs and judgments you know, you speak so well.
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  I'm I'm I'm I'm shocked or wait a second.
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  You're a lawyer.
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  How could you be a lawyer?
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  Things like that.
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  And people are starting to speak up a lot more about that.
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  And finally, the various privileges, that, that's that certain individuals have.
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  And we all have privilege, but our our system is there are systems still in place that do
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  privilege some, or give some certain privileges over others.
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  And that that really impacts or negatively impacts, you know, certain groups that don't
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  fall into those, those buckets.
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  And so the education that's starting to come about, and starting to lead towards real
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  change, and measuring that change is is kind of the new trend that has happened that has been
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  different from what we experienced 10, 15, 20 years ago.
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  So, you know, I I really wanna talk to you a little bit about the conscious and conscious
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  bias that employees might give me an example of something like that because I'm I'm curious
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  because now you're making me reflect on on on my situation, kind of, you know, what how might
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  I have been exposed to that and not maybe been aware that it was, a bias.
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  So can you give me an example of something like that, Del?
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  Absolutely.
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  So there's a few that come to mind.
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  1 conscious bias And I'm I'm a huge advocate about, really also talking about conscious bias
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  biases.
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  Unconscious biases is is the popular theme.
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  The popular trend training everything about what we don't know, what our brains do to fill
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  in gaps and and to make assessments and assumptions about people before we actually
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  fully have taken the time to to get to know the truth.
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  So but before I get there, an example of a conscious bias is something as simple as There
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  is a young woman and she's applying for, a role.
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  And in the interview process, behind the scenes, She could be amazing.
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  She could be honestly the perfect selection for this this particular opportunity for the
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  organization, but there is one concern that the hiring team has.
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  She's young.
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  She mentioned that she just perhaps got married, for an example, And she's likely
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  within childbearing years.
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  So because of that, a decision is made, you know what?
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  She's probably gonna be perfect for the role, but she's probably gonna have a baby soon
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  within the next year or 2, and I can't afford to do that.
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  I need someone who's gonna be committed.
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  And they made someone who's going to, be loyal and kind of stay on with us consistently for
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  the next 5 years because we have so many projects going on.
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  And that is not an unconscious bias.
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  That is a very conscious bias.
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  You know exactly what you're doing, exactly what you're saying, and you're actually
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  choosing to discriminate based on a perception that you might have about an individual and
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  that directly impacts her opportunity, and her ability to contribute to the workplace.
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  And to her career.
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  And that happens all the time.
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  So that's one example of a conscious bias, and there's a lot of unconscious biases that come
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  into play.
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  Well, you know, there's a Veronica, for example, and, I know she's a new immigrant, and
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  she came from China.
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  And Even though again, her her skills, her her aptitude, she would be great to move to the
• 15:13
  next step for us to promote her in the organization, but English is not her first
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  language.
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  And I don't think that our clients are going to really pay attention to her if she has to
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  deliver all those presentations that are required for this role.
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  Because she has a little bit of an an accent.
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  Right?
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  And, you know, that just could be That could be deemed as a conscious bias, but it also
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  sometimes that assumption is is had by just looking at the individual and assuming you
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  know, okay.
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  She she might be of Asian descent.
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  She's not from here.
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  She probably is is not going to be, you know, great at speaking position.
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  That that could be an unconscious bias.
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  There's no there's no, there's no evidence of that, right, or it could be, you know, I'm
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  going to put this black man, in in a development community to work on that
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  particular project from a in a poorer community, right, because he's gonna be able to
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  relate or identify with with the people that live there.
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  And so that's the reason why we're gonna promote him into position.
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  But that might not be his lived experience.
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  But the perception that because he's a person of color, he would be more suited to fit that
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  particular opportunity.
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  Again, that could be based on an unconscious bias because there's no evidence of that.
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  And a decision ultimately being made because of that.
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  So a lot of that does happen, unfortunately, in the workplace, and there's so many examples
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  that we can name.
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  But, and we are the givers of of biases conscious and unconscious, and we are also the
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  receivers of it.
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  And so it's something that, you know, within my training that I do.
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  It's helping us understand that this happens.
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  We all do it, but how to interrupt that process?
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  And how do we change the way that we think and and start to recognize those blind spots that
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  we have in order to ensure that we're not making assumptions, and we're not making
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  detrimental or prejudice based assumptions, for others, for for our peers and for the people
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  that we work with in the workplace.
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  That's such that's so interesting because I could I can speak to each each and everyone in
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  in my different roles and the the different, you know, in my career trajectory, right,
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  right, where sometimes I, you know, in one particular position, it was, you know, well,
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  I'm coming back off Matt leave, and I could tell I could tell I was being treated
• 17:39
  differently.
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  And was it wasn't explicit, but it was kind of an implicit feeling that I had to work three
• 17:47
  times as hard to be able to to get back to the level that I was prior to leaving on that way.
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  And, you know, now I think back, I hadn't thought about that stuff you know, when when
• 17:58
  you when you're describing it, for me, I'm like, wow.
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  You know, I just thought it was, you know, because everybody thought I had mummy brain.
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  But if you kinda think about it now, I'm like, wow.
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  It's interesting that some of these, you know, like, little implicit things that are
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  happening, you're not where, like I said, and even in my time, you know, and at that time, I
• 18:19
  think I was, say, you know, 30, you know, to now it's, like you said, there's been a massive
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  shift probably in the last 10 years.
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  So I'm sure a lot of people are probably thinking, how what was my experience, but,
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  like, to your point, like, how was I also judging?
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  You know?
• 18:37
  Absolutely.
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  You
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  know, not not being aware of my how I was judging people or you know, you know, someone
• 18:43
  with an accent or someone that maybe has, you know, is dressed more traditionally because of
• 18:49
  religion or someone, you know, that looked different from me because we all wanna we all
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  wanna relate to somebody that we are entuned with.
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  Would you agree that some of that, you know, we know that that's proven.
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  So how do we?
• 19:02
  Yeah.
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  And how do we get past that?
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  Because ever if everybody looks different, how do we educate Dallas?
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  My question to just have people, see it's about competence and capacity versus you know, how
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  I'm dressed or what the color of my skin is or, whether I'm a young female that is going into
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  my child bearing years or those types of things.
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  How do you educate to kind of remove that barrier?
• 19:29
  I think that's a a phenomenal question.
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  I also think that that's where we exactly need to start.
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  Right?
• 19:35
  We understand what it is.
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  We understand that what our brains do.
• 19:38
  Our brains all make assessments and and try to fill in gaps automatically But what we what we
• 19:44
  really need to do, I think, especially in the the corporate space is, we need to be more
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  exposed to what is different from us.
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  And and and and, of course, learn to embrace it, yes, but seek to understand it and not fear
• 20:00
  it.
• 20:00
  And I think some of the reasons why we haven't had more education in in in spaces and with
• 20:06
  individuals that identify differently from us is because human nature to also fear the
• 20:11
  unknown.
• 20:11
  Right?
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  But instead of of backing away from it and only kind of surrounding ourselves with what's
• 20:17
  familiar to us, which is what, you know, humans tend to do.
• 20:23
  We can't afford to continue to do that in our environment, especially in Canada, especially
• 20:27
  in Toronto, where we're the most diverse community in society in the entire world.
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  We cannot afford to do that.
• 20:33
  And before I just answer your your question, I do wanna throw in a few snap stats for
• 20:38
  awareness.
• 20:38
  Right?
• 20:39
  So the reason why we can't afford to do that is because by 2048, Catalyst, major research from
• 20:46
  has also, you know, predicted that the majority of people living in North America will be women
• 20:55
  of color.
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  So the the the demographic is absolutely gonna shift within the next 30 years.
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  Right?
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  What we deem now as the minority will be the majority.
• 21:06
  Right?
• 21:06
  And so we need to also start to put in place, better tools, better mechanisms, but, and
• 21:12
  understand a lot more, who we're going to be supporting and what the world's gonna look
• 21:17
  like.
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  Not only from a community perspective, but also from, a business perspective.
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  And so representation matters, and that's a huge tagline.
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  It's a huge, I guess, model for me personally and professionally.
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  And what I mean by that is no matter what space you're in, And no matter what the decision is,
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  if we take that from an approach that do we have adequate?
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  Do we have sufficient?
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  Do we have diverse representation that is contributing to this decision, right, or is it
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  homogeneous, Is it typically, you know, a bunch of individuals that pretty much identify with
• 21:58
  each other and making the decisions for the masses.
• 22:00
  Right?
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  And that's how it's been.
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  And that's why we've seen these challenges where people don't fit in.
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  Decisions are made for us that as a whole that don't really benefit all of us as a whole.
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  And so the way that we can approach is from an education perspective, from a a corporate
• 22:18
  governance perspective from a decision making perspective on anything that we have to deal
• 22:22
  with within the workplace is do I have representation?
• 22:26
  Do I have representation from a gender lens?
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  Do I have representation from a racialized lens, from an abilities lens, from a religious
• 22:34
  lens, from you know, from an orientation lens, whatever lens you want to, you know, address.
• 22:42
  And do I have direct representation so that individuals can speak about their own lived
• 22:46
  experiences, what their needs, what their challenges are, because we've also come from an
• 22:51
  environment that those in power will speak for the mass but they might not relate to what
• 22:57
  those experiences are.
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  And it does everybody a disservice.
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  And it does everybody a disservice from understanding better who we are and how we can
• 23:06
  go co habitat, how we can drive business and innovation along as peers.
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  And it also very much derails from diversity of thought, which is really what gives us the
• 23:16
  leading advantage, the competitive advantage not just in Canada, but again, from a business
• 23:21
  perspective.
• 23:21
  So we really need to ensure that, representation adequate diverse representation
• 23:27
  is at the table at all levels, to help us close those blind spots, close those gaps, and so
• 23:34
  that we are very much prepared for the future that we're about to live in.
• 23:39
  Wow.
• 23:39
  That's that's I didn't think it would be that high, to be honest with you, but that's that
• 23:44
  shows you.
• 23:44
  So then, we need that, you know, diversity just visibly in lots of different ways, not just
• 23:53
  racialized, like you said, religion, gender, all those things with and especially with
• 23:59
  women, if it Africa where you said 48%.
• 24:02
  That's that's huge.
• 24:04
  It's actually the majority.
• 24:05
  So it's more than 48%, but that's by 2048.
• 24:08
  So within 30 years, the majority of people living and working in North America, of course,
• 24:13
  including Canada, will be women of color coming from all parts of the world, even generally
• 24:19
  generationally, Canadian as well.
• 24:22
  So what we what we know to be true are is the norm now is very much going to change.
• 24:28
  So I you you talked, a little bit about you you glossed on the term microaggression.
• 24:34
  And I think to the average person that doesn't know, they they probably heard that word, but I
• 24:39
  would like you to describe to people listening.
• 24:42
  What what is microaggression?
• 24:45
  Okay.
• 24:45
  So a microaggression essentially is it's a situation where there is, a comment.
• 24:57
  It could be a judgment.
• 25:00
  Whether it's verbal, nonverbal, it could be, a slight, a snub, an insult, And it doesn't even
• 25:08
  matter whether it's intentional or unintentional that essentially communicates a
• 25:11
  hostile derogatory negative message to a person solely based on their marginalized group
• 25:18
  status.
• 25:18
  So I know that that's a major definition, or a long winded definition, but essentially it's
• 25:24
  it's an assumption or or pre judgment that's communicated to another individual, that can
• 25:31
  come in the form of a comment or a look or, you know, a behavior that is exclusive in nature or
• 25:39
  or neglectful that makes someone else feel inferior.
• 25:43
  And the way that that often can kind of show up is is, you know, you you speak very well, or
• 25:50
  you speak English very well.
• 25:51
  And then, you know, the other the person receiving end would say, well, what do you
• 25:54
  expect for this sound like?
• 25:55
  You know?
• 25:56
  Why would you assume that I that I can't be articulate?
• 25:59
  Right?
• 26:00
  Based on what I look like or based on wearing from, etcetera, or it could be, you know,
• 26:04
  anything from I didn't I could I didn't expect that you have an education at this level.
• 26:09
  Or, oh, wait a second.
• 26:11
  Why aren't she married at this at this stage of your life?
• 26:15
  Right?
• 26:15
  Why aren't she married?
• 26:16
  Does and and with the implication that you know, something wrong with you.
• 26:20
  It is, you know, so there's so many things that we we go through, or it could even be from a
• 26:24
  gender perspective.
• 26:25
  You know, we're about to have a team meeting and we're going to the golf course.
• 26:29
  Oh, you know, I I don't assume that you would wanna go because, you know, you're a woman type
• 26:35
  thing.
• 26:36
  Right.
• 26:36
  Right.
• 26:37
  And this is happening on a regular basis.
• 26:39
  And I'll give you 2 very important stats, that that backup the, the regularity of,
• 26:47
  unfortunately, of micro aggression.
• 26:49
  So, psychology today actually states that 64% of women have acknowledged that they
• 26:55
  experienced microaggressions on a regular basis.
• 26:58
  And women are place is likely as men to have to be mistaken for someone in a more junior
• 27:03
  position.
• 27:04
  Right?
• 27:04
  You walk into the room with a bunch of your peers, They automatically assume if the
• 27:08
  majority of your peers are men, that you are are the ones supporting the men, right, and not
• 27:14
  the other way around.
• 27:15
  And one other statistic, women of color, especially black women, right, deal with a
• 27:21
  greater variety of microaggressions and are more likely than any other woman to have
• 27:26
  judgment, their judgment question in their area of expertise.
• 27:30
  Right?
• 27:30
  So they would have to explain more and more and more about why they've made a decision, why
• 27:35
  they're confident with this particular decision.
• 27:38
  No matter what level they're at, and they have to actually do this more, which leads to
• 27:43
  emotional attacks and feeling drained and feeling stressed.
• 27:47
  And and and women are actually three times more likely to think about leaving their work simply
• 27:52
  based on the microaggressions that they face on a regular basis.
• 27:56
  So that's that's, like, I mean, when you think about that, like, I I'm sure, like, if the I
• 28:00
  I'm in that stat.
• 28:01
  I've I've had that happen to me multiple.
• 28:03
  I'm sure, to some degree, you too, but you, you know, you kind of think about it.
• 28:06
  I'll give you, like, some silly examples for me.
• 28:08
  Right?
• 28:09
  Like, it'll be like, you know, I used to play Carabana every year.
• 28:12
  Yes.
• 28:12
  And every year, they would people would say, are you gonna live this year?
• 28:15
  I'm like, what what do you mean?
• 28:17
  They'd say, well, you're going to Carabana.
• 28:18
  You know, people die at Carabana and be like, Well, in Toronto, having worked with the police
• 28:24
  as my first career, there was a gun call every 6, every every 6 minutes in Toronto that was
• 28:29
  not related to Carabana.
• 28:31
  You know, because again, and then I'd be like, really?
• 28:34
  It's not because of Carabana.
• 28:36
  And here, I'd be saying that every year, but my friends are like, I hope you come back alive,
• 28:40
  you know, kind of thing.
• 28:41
  So that's a example, my friends will probably laugh because they know they say it to me, not
• 28:45
  not in a malicious way.
• 28:46
  Yes.
• 28:47
  But, again, it's like that reception, what happens in the Toronto star, Carabana weekend,
• 28:53
  you know, shooting at Carabana parade.
• 28:56
  Really?
• 28:56
  There's a gun call every 6 minutes in Toronto.
• 28:59
  Absolutely.
• 29:00
  It's a perfect example of a microaggression.
• 29:02
  It's a a perfect example of of a bias.
• 29:05
  Somewhat unconscious depending on who the the sender is, but it also could be conscious as
• 29:10
  well.
• 29:11
  So that's it's it's a great example.
• 29:13
  And I think what you said was very key.
• 29:15
  A lot of what comes out isn't intentionally harmful.
• 29:21
  Right?
• 29:22
  It may be just a joke or maybe actually be a valid concern, but it's not rooted in truth.
• 29:28
  Right.
• 29:28
  And that's that is the key.
• 29:30
  It's not rooted in truth and it what it does is it perpetuates, unfortunately, negative
• 29:35
  stereotypes, and it perpetuates judgments and and prejudices that are actually harmful to
• 29:42
  underrepresented and marginalized groups.
• 29:44
  And so that is what ultimately affects the quality of life and the lived experience both
• 29:49
  in the community and in the workplace.
• 29:51
  And that's what we're trying to change.
• 29:53
  So, you know, what I what I'm interested in is Let's talk HR.
• 29:57
  Let's talk, you know, we're talking from the government level to kind of the you know, the
• 30:04
  frontline employee and how managers are going to create where how are you gonna create shit?
• 30:10
  I guess I I wanna know what is being done to create shift and from a global purse like a
• 30:15
  like a government perspective, but also within the the HR departments and across Toronto or
• 30:21
  across Canada, you know, what kind of things are being done so that because Obviously, this
• 30:27
  is a huge issue.
• 30:28
  And like you said, a lot of times, it's, it's based on ignorance, and lack of knowledge.
• 30:34
  So tell me some of the things that you do in your capacity to, create the shift?
• 30:41
  Yeah.
• 30:42
  So, it's it's good to hear or good to know that I actually have the privilege of being involved
• 30:48
  in a few projects that are happening to make, some of these shifts.
• 30:51
  And it's based on the feedback that the community and and us as as citizens have, we
• 30:58
  decided to speak up and and say, you know, some things need to change.
• 31:01
  So One that comes to mind is, the 4 the former ministry of the SAS of Women Canada.
• 31:06
  I believe it's another ministry of gender equity.
• 31:10
  And, woman and gender equity, they have actually, are starting to put together a
• 31:17
  blueprint for organizations very specifically in, the private sector to acknowledge, you
• 31:24
  know, gender equity, and in leadership.
• 31:27
  And, you know, and especially for women, and they recognize that there's a gap.
• 31:31
  They recognize that women are not able due to various barriers, you know, subtle and vary
• 31:37
  overt barriers to raise to the levels of of leadership in and governance that they really
• 31:43
  are skilled, and qualified to do.
• 31:47
  And so, they're actually putting together a blueprint right now to help the nation, that
• 31:53
  will be released within the next 2 years.
• 31:55
  And businesses, you know, no matter what size to look internally to see what are some of
• 32:01
  those those challenges, what are some
• 32:02
  of the biases, and
• 32:02
  barriers that are happening and provide practical tools to be able to help
• 32:10
  organizations who don't know what to do or who don't know where to start.
• 32:14
  To, analyze themselves, gather the data that they need to understand what their current
• 32:19
  situation is, and what areas do they need to work on and what areas do they need to educate
• 32:23
  themselves a little bit more around and what do they need to put in place in terms of
• 32:27
  implementation strategies to combat those inequities that are happening.
• 32:34
  So the government is very much involved in and and even putting resources in place, to ensure
• 32:41
  that there is some change.
• 32:42
  So and that's also happening from a pay equity standpoint from a patron parentcy standpoint to
• 32:47
  again close those gaps where certain groups are, valued, more than others for similar work
• 32:55
  that's being done.
• 32:57
  And then from a perspective in terms of what I do on a regular basis, I do a lot of workshops
• 33:02
  training, conversations, dialogues, panel discussions, to bring about a lot of awareness
• 33:09
  in this area, to give what I would say is language to some of these things that happen to
• 33:15
  us that we don't know what to call them.
• 33:17
  So, you know, some of the experiences that we just shared on this conversation because I've
• 33:22
  definitely gone through my own share of microaggressions and my own share of of being
• 33:27
  on the receiving end of advises in the workplace than other inequities.
• 33:31
  But again, a couple years ago, I didn't know that this was called a microaggression.
• 33:35
  Yeah.
• 33:35
  And it's helping to educate others that so that they're able to communicate, to their HR teams,
• 33:42
  what is happening to them, right, giving them the tools so that they can feel empowered to
• 33:46
  bring about change to better their, their experience.
• 33:50
  I also, helped to work with organizations and and advocate for data, and and measurement as,
• 33:58
  an effective tool to achieve the goals that are that we're trying to set out and to push
• 34:04
  forward progress so that in 5, 10 years from now, we're not talking about the exact same
• 34:08
  things and no change has been made.
• 34:09
  And I think that's one area that, unfortunately, us within organizations and us
• 34:14
  as a country in a whole, we're lacking a bit about.
• 34:17
  We don't collect enough data based on various demographics and based on, various identities.
• 34:24
  And because of that, we get to sit a little bit of ignorance and plead it as bliss.
• 34:28
  Right?
• 34:29
  We don't know how severe some issues are.
• 34:32
  We don't know how severe some inequities are because we haven't been tracking it and we
• 34:36
  haven't been measuring it.
• 34:38
  And we haven't been analyzing what we can't what we have tracked and measured.
• 34:41
  And so because of that, too much time goes by where we're allowed to have all these blind
• 34:49
  spots and nothing's done with them.
• 34:51
  And so now there's a big push in the HR.
• 34:56
  Space within organizations in the government space to start to track some of these
• 35:00
  inconsistencies.
• 35:01
  We wouldn't know that there is a wage gap And that, for example, women earn in Canada as per
• 35:07
  the last ads, Canada report 75¢ on the dollar to what men earn.
• 35:11
  Right?
• 35:12
  And it the gap even gets worse.
• 35:13
  So those who identify as a newcomer and immigrant to Canada only make 71¢ on the
• 35:19
  dollar.
• 35:19
  Those from racialized groups.
• 35:21
  It doesn't matter if you lived here for years in generations or you, or otherwise, you only
• 35:25
  make 67¢ on the dollar.
• 35:28
  Indigenous population 65¢ and persons identifying of as living with, you know, any
• 35:35
  disability, whether it's visible or non visible, only make 54¢ on the dollar.
• 35:39
  But again, if we are not, measuring this, if we're not tracking this, then how can we see,
• 35:48
  you know, whether we're improving, these numbers, whether we're closing that gap.
• 35:52
  So that's something that, again, we we push forward.
• 35:55
  We work with HR teams, but also with the government, to be able to draw attention to
• 36:00
  thought.
• 36:01
  Yeah.
• 36:01
  So interesting, you know, because, I don't know if you read any Malcolm Gladwell that, you
• 36:06
  know, I love his work.
• 36:07
  And if you've never read him, tell it something to to to read, but, Malcolm spoke about, you
• 36:13
  know, with Maestro's.
• 36:14
  Right?
• 36:15
  So people that lead arc orchestras, they would it was a predominantly male, role.
• 36:21
  Right?
• 36:22
  Maestro's were always male.
• 36:23
  That was the known thing, you know, orchestras.
• 36:25
  And then what they did is once you know, they, they, they introduced a white screen, right?
• 36:31
  So people would go behind and they would, they would, audition behind the screen.
• 36:37
  So there was this one, you know, I think you know where I'm going with the story, but this
• 36:41
  particular person was so phenomenal.
• 36:43
  It was apparently with the they used the white screen, And this audition was the best.
• 36:48
  They think that this person was one of the best, Maestro's ever.
• 36:52
  Right?
• 36:53
  And then they re they removed the white screen and was a woman.
• 36:57
  And, that's where it's kind of the the kind of the impetus to use white screen.
• 37:01
  So my thing becomes right, when you tell me about these numbers, I'm I'm a woman of of
• 37:07
  color, and I'm thinking, did that, you know, I'm not thinking that happened to me, This is
• 37:12
  this is my conscious brain seeing that, but, obviously, the data is there to some degree.
• 37:17
  I'm educated.
• 37:17
  I've been in the field of, you know, psychology for over 30 years, but I've held various
• 37:23
  positions.
• 37:23
  And there's a part of me that wonders.
• 37:25
  Did it happen to me, or did it did it not happen to me?
• 37:29
  And I guess that's my question, you know, like, now we have a lot of, I think, I'm gonna say
• 37:34
  residual repair that we have.
• 37:36
  We need to to, work on because if you have people that have kind of perceived that, you
• 37:43
  know, there are all these inequities, let's say as as a as an ethnic person or a person that's
• 37:49
  of a different religion or whatever or gender.
• 37:52
  I would see that they when you shift to create more inclusion, you also have to work with
• 37:58
  people that are coming into Canada or the, you know, into North America to kinda help them let
• 38:04
  go of perceived perceptions of biases too if we are creating that shift.
• 38:08
  Absolutely.
• 38:09
  So there is a lot of there are a lot of flap factors at play, and that's why there is really
• 38:13
  no silver bullet.
• 38:14
  No one standard way for everybody to cheat to achieve the same thing.
• 38:19
  Seamlessly.
• 38:19
  And I think that's, again, why representation matters, why there needs to be healthy
• 38:23
  conversation and open dialogue and, and and and an open exchange of ideas so that we understand
• 38:31
  1st and foremost all of the different perceptions that are coming to the table and
• 38:35
  then work together to find a solution that is truly beneficial to to everyone and everyone
• 38:40
  who's contributing to this space.
• 38:42
  And, again, you know, it's it's It's we are up against, you know, historic systems that have
• 38:49
  governed, the way things have been done for years years years here.
• 38:53
  Traditionally, but we're also, up against so many different cultural norms that are also
• 38:58
  coming into the society as well that are, impacting you know, the way that we are gonna
• 39:04
  continue to see things, but these see things also, but for future generations, right?
• 39:08
  Another identity often we forget is is age, right, and how age also plays into the
• 39:13
  workplace.
• 39:14
  You know, we have 5 generations working together all at once and it's the first time in
• 39:18
  earth's history.
• 39:19
  That that has been happening.
• 39:21
  So there are, you know, the way that the younger generations, perceive the future and
• 39:25
  the way that they wanna do things is very different from the way some, some individuals
• 39:29
  have traditionally known it from from, from more mature generations.
• 39:33
  And so it's finding a way to kind of create harmony And ultimately, what I say is a sense
• 39:39
  of belonging.
• 39:40
  And one thing I really wanna make key here is that, you know, there are the buzzwords of
• 39:44
  diversity and inclusion, and we stop there.
• 39:47
  We stop at diversity inclusion.
• 39:49
  Right?
• 39:49
  Diversity is, you know, the the the the the variety, right, the the the vibrant.
• 39:54
  Right?
• 39:54
  All of the different things coming together.
• 39:56
  Right?
• 39:57
  And inclusion is making, you know, inviting inviting everybody in And we've been stuck
• 40:03
  there, but that really is not the end goal.
• 40:05
  The end goal truly is achieving a state of belonging.
• 40:09
  And that's why, I say my diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging adviser because I
• 40:14
  don't my mandate is not to just stay with inclusion just because you're invited doesn't
• 40:19
  mean that you feel welcome.
• 40:20
  And too often, we're stuck at just inviting people I've invited you.
• 40:24
  I've hired you.
• 40:25
  They'll fit in.
• 40:27
  Right?
• 40:27
  You should be grateful that you're here.
• 40:31
  Or, you know, I invited you to the meeting, but, you know, you don't respect what that
• 40:35
  individual has to say or what their perspective is or their opinion.
• 40:38
  So that they don't feel a sense of belonging.
• 40:40
  What happens?
• 40:41
  Turnover.
• 40:42
  They leave.
• 40:43
  Right?
• 40:43
  And so it's because we're not making achieving a sense of belonging, the the overall, goal, at
• 40:52
  the end of the day.
• 40:53
  And that's what I challenge organizations to really start to focus on and belonging doesn't
• 40:57
  mean fit in.
• 40:58
  Belonging means come with whoever you are and all the die the identities that make of who you
• 41:05
  are, all of the intersections.
• 41:07
  Right?
• 41:08
  And and, you know, we are going to not only embrace it, but How can we how can we use those
• 41:15
  differences to our advantage?
• 41:18
  Not fear fear them or shy away from them.
• 41:21
  But also, you know, what do you bring to the table that I don't that we can collaborate on
• 41:26
  and partner together to create something amazing.
• 41:28
  Right?
• 41:28
  And I think when people can feel heard, feel respected, feel valued, feel seen, that's what
• 41:34
  helps them.
• 41:35
  It should be that's what helps us collectively achieve a sense of belonging.
• 41:38
  And that's where organizations need to go.
• 41:40
  If we want to make this amazing diverse, multi ethnic, multicultural, demographic makeup of
• 41:47
  Canada work.
• 41:48
  That's where we we essentially need to go.
• 41:50
  Wow.
• 41:50
  Beautifully said because we figure that out, will be unstoppable as a as a will power if you
• 41:56
  think about it, right?
• 41:57
  Because, you know, we have, you know, Canada when I to Canada.
• 42:01
  So I came to Canada in 1983.
• 42:03
  So I grew up in Trinidad.
• 42:05
  And, so I was bringing a completely different cultural context Right?
• 42:09
  So people meet me and they say, well, you're Trinity, and I know you know that, here in that
• 42:13
  term, and then they would assume certain things about me.
• 42:16
  Right?
• 42:16
  So I meet another person and they don't know much other than, oh, you're from Trinidad.
• 42:21
  Like, what what what is it?
• 42:22
  But my my reality was different.
• 42:25
  I was a foreign student.
• 42:26
  You know, I grew up elsewhere, I'd seen every person in power of a different color and, had
• 42:33
  grown up around you know, people in power being different.
• 42:36
  So when I came to Canada and I listened to people's perspectives, though, that threw me
• 42:40
  off.
• 42:41
  I was like, well, why can't your prime minister be black or brown Chinese, or my dentist was,
• 42:46
  you know, half white, half Asian.
• 42:48
  You know?
• 42:49
  So I grew up with that in my brain, and then I came here, and then I went, woah.
• 42:53
  This is a little bit different.
• 42:55
  Right?
• 42:56
  We had colonialism in the Caribbean.
• 42:58
  Absolutely.
• 42:59
  We was very, very definite.
• 43:01
  But you also had people that, you know, of of every culture kinda as a rainbow.
• 43:05
  Right?
• 43:06
  So, so it's it's interesting.
• 43:08
  Like you said, I what did I want?
• 43:10
  You know, coming to camp, I wanted to belong.
• 43:13
  That that was all as a young, you know, teenager coming to go to university.
• 43:17
  That's all I wanted was to to fit in.
• 43:19
  And interesting that you say that because I, you know, what I talk about is authenticity and
• 43:23
  leadership.
• 43:24
  I talk about, you know, people finding that space within themselves to be who they need be
• 43:30
  to show up and, you know, things will take care of itself.
• 43:33
  And it's interesting that you're talking about belonging.
• 43:35
  I love it because, you know, if if you invite people to the table, but you make it
• 43:40
  uncomfortable, how can they how can they give their gifts or share the gifts with you?
• 43:45
  Absolutely.
• 43:46
  And do you know what, honestly, Roxanne, we we speak the exact same language in in the spaces
• 43:51
  because every single thing you said and and and what you you counsel the red and you advocate
• 43:57
  for us exactly what I do as well.
• 43:59
  And exactly what I say.
• 44:00
  And that's what why I have these discussions because ultimately, it's exactly that goal.
• 44:06
  You know, I always say as just to support what you said, is my true belief is that you know,
• 44:12
  diversity is really what makes the world vibrant and beautiful.
• 44:15
  We all have gifts.
• 44:16
  We all have talents that we contribute.
• 44:18
  And history always also proves I'm a historian as well.
• 44:22
  By, you know, educated.
• 44:24
  And, I say no one ever remembers the copy cats.
• 44:28
  They only remember the original.
• 44:29
  It doesn't matter if you're if if it's your favorite music artist, it doesn't matter if
• 44:33
  it's your favorite athlete, it doesn't matter who it is.
• 44:35
  You don't remember the people who copy each other and and who sound the same as others.
• 44:41
  You remember those people who really stand out because they're being authentic.
• 44:45
  And they're being themselves.
• 44:46
  And they are unapologetic about it.
• 44:49
  And and that's what, you know, I hope to create help to create spaces to empower people that
• 44:56
  they can be who they are and be valued and be appreciated and, and own own that space that
• 45:06
  they're in.
• 45:07
  You know, while they're doing that.
• 45:09
  And, and that ultimately too is is one of the reasons why I do what I do.
• 45:13
  Well, Dallas has been an ultimate pleasure.
• 45:16
  You know, I I wish, to to stay connected so we can I can keep, you know, abreast of what
• 45:21
  you're doing?
• 45:22
  Now for people that are whether it's a CEO listening that thinks, wow, I I I need to meet
• 45:26
  this young lady and, talk strategy to people that may be interested in having you having you
• 45:32
  speak or do workshops or HR awareness, where where, where can people reach you to be able
• 45:38
  to, you know, get that support from you?
• 45:42
  Oh, great.
• 45:42
  Thanks, Roxanne.
• 45:43
  I'd I'm more than happy to have anybody reach out to me.
• 45:46
  I could be found on LinkedIn, under my name, Delafonte Atkins, and I spell that.
• 45:51
  Because I know it could be a little bit challenging for the average person.
• 45:54
  So it's spelled del0, f as in Frank, a n t e, Atkins, a t k I n s.
• 46:02
  I can also be found on Instagram at queen.della.
• 46:05
  So that's qween.dela.
• 46:09
  Or on Twitter at, Queenella, q w e e n d e l l a.
• 46:14
  So I'm more than happy to be able to to share anything with, anyone who's interested.
• 46:21
  Awesome.
• 46:22
  So if I can echo, Del's words when I think about what I talk about in the workplace, you
• 46:28
  know, be real, be connected.
• 46:32
  Bring your bring your uniqueness.
• 46:33
  That's your gift.
• 46:34
  You know, we that's all we have to Del's point, we don't want copy cats.
• 46:39
  We want the real deal, and we're one of a kind, like, our, our, your prints.
• 46:44
  So be real.
• 46:45
  Get out there.
• 46:46
  Make a difference.
• 46:47
  If you're different, like, Del and I both are, you know, ethnically, know that that's a gift
• 46:54
  and you you bring search so many things that you can give the world that the girl the world
• 46:58
  needs to experience.
• 46:59
  So again, thank you for tuning in and, Dell, I I'm very attorney grateful for you, sharing
• 47:07
  your wisdom today.
• 47:08
  And look, I look forward with, excitement to see what you're gonna do out there in, in not
• 47:15
  just, you know, on an HR level, but also on a go level.
• 47:20
  So take care, Del.
• 47:22
  Thank you so much again, Roxanne.
• 47:23
  K.
• 47:24
  Bye bye.
• 47:24
  Bye bye.
• 47:25
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 47:31
  healthy change.
• 47:32
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 47:39
  rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
• 47:42
  We'll see you next time.
• 47:44
  On authentic living with Roxanne.