Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / FM Radio’s Golden Decade: The Rise of AOR [Episode 364]

Transcript

FM Radio’s Golden Decade: The Rise of AOR [Episode 364] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

0:00
Speaker 1: I just think it was appeared when people wrote great songs.
0:02
Speaker 1: It's almost that perfect storm, so many bands coming along
0:04
Speaker 1: at once. That record sounded like it was beamed in
0:07
Speaker 1: from out of space.
0:08
Speaker 2: If you remove that track from history, does the entire
0:12
Speaker 2: trajectory of the late seventies arena rock change?
0:16
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great question.
0:17
Speaker 2: We're totally boomed rock and roll. I mean, I'll leave you.
0:22
Speaker 1: You're reading little Hands this.
0:23
Speaker 2: It's time to rock and roll, rock band roll out.
0:26
Speaker 2: I totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the
0:34
Speaker 2: podcast for those about to read in rock Emeric Sentich.
0:37
Speaker 2: Before we get started, listeners and viewers get fifteen percent
0:41
Speaker 2: off classic rock merchandise at oglory dot com with the
0:44
Speaker 2: code Booked on Rock links in the show notes, or
0:47
Speaker 2: at bookedown rock dot com under my Deals. Now onto
0:51
Speaker 2: our guest, Paul Reese. He's the author of Raised on Radio,
0:54
Speaker 2: Power Ballads, Cocaine and Paola. The Aoar Glory Years nineteen
0:59
Speaker 2: seventy six to night eighty six. Welcome to the podcast part.
1:02
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having Merik. It's good to
1:04
Speaker 1: be here.
1:05
Speaker 2: This is the first biography of Aoar album Oriented Rock Aoar.
1:11
Speaker 2: It gets used as a catch all term. How would
1:14
Speaker 2: you define it for someone who may think just corporate
1:17
Speaker 2: rock when they see that term.
1:18
Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't define it's corporate rock. I think that's
1:20
Speaker 1: the thing that it's been todd with for years. I'd
1:23
Speaker 1: define it as people who knew how to write songs
1:26
Speaker 1: for radio in the glory years of radio. So the
1:30
Speaker 1: period of the book, FM becomes the standard sound in
1:35
Speaker 1: car stereos, and there's a group of artists who just
1:38
Speaker 1: knew exactly how to write songs that sound it great,
1:41
Speaker 1: driving along in the cast area. And I think that
1:45
Speaker 1: the idea when I was doing the book that it
1:46
Speaker 1: was corporate rock. These were people who just made up
1:49
Speaker 1: songs on the spot. They were just great musicians. So
1:52
Speaker 1: I find that just great sounding rock music.
1:55
Speaker 2: Why did the AAR explosion happen specifically between nineteen seventy
2:00
Speaker 2: six and eighteen eighty six. What conditions made that possible?
2:03
Speaker 1: I think, firstly, as I said, the idea, it was
2:07
Speaker 1: radio became FM in car you know car stereos, and
2:12
Speaker 1: this was music that sounded perfect in that environment. I
2:16
Speaker 1: think MTV coming along in nineteen eighty one, and lots
2:20
Speaker 1: of these bands actually did make videos MTV. You know,
2:23
Speaker 1: lots of people didn't make videos at that time. There
2:26
Speaker 1: were lots of these bands who were making videos to
2:29
Speaker 1: be shown in Europe and stuff like that, so they
2:31
Speaker 1: landed on the FM playlist. I think in America at
2:34
Speaker 1: the time, the eight as you go into the eighties,
2:37
Speaker 1: it's music that sounds perfect in that environment, and I
2:42
Speaker 1: just think it was appear when people wrote great songs.
2:45
Speaker 1: There were just lots and lots of bands that all
2:46
Speaker 1: along the ones. I think the starting point of the
2:48
Speaker 1: book is the first Boston album, which has a spaceship
2:52
Speaker 1: on its cover, aptly because it was music that sounded
2:55
Speaker 1: like it. That record sounded like it was beamed in
2:57
Speaker 1: from out of space. I think it's just that it's
3:01
Speaker 1: almost that that perfect storm, so many bands coming along
3:04
Speaker 1: at once, great musicians who knew it to write great songs.
3:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a definitive aour era song. Paul Ahern, their manager,
3:13
Speaker 2: is quoted in the book he said, with more than
3:15
Speaker 2: a feeling, I knew we'd get twenty four hour a
3:17
Speaker 2: day airplay, and airplay was the key to it. All.
3:20
Speaker 2: Starts off sweet and then gets heavy, which does not
3:22
Speaker 2: disqualify it from housewife airplay time. If you remove that
3:26
Speaker 2: track from history, does the entire trajectory of the late
3:33
Speaker 2: seventies arena rock change.
3:35
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think if you listen to
3:38
Speaker 1: something someone like Dennis DeYoung, who I spoke to you
3:40
Speaker 1: for the book from Styx, we'll say we were doing
3:44
Speaker 1: that kind of music before you know, we were in
3:47
Speaker 1: advance of Boston. But I think that that's a really
3:51
Speaker 1: good question. It's almost like a back to the future question.
3:53
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, if that song doesn't come out and
3:56
Speaker 1: make the impact it did, I'm not too sure whether
4:00
Speaker 1: say Journey would have been quite so determined to get
4:03
Speaker 1: themselves the front man or Foreigner would have been quite
4:06
Speaker 1: a set upon the sin they had, or Areo Speedbag
4:10
Speaker 1: ins record company starts saying you need to write a
4:13
Speaker 1: radio hit like this. I think it's one of those
4:17
Speaker 1: game changes. One of the ironies of it, I suppose,
4:19
Speaker 1: is that there's that, whether it's apocryphal or not, the
4:22
Speaker 1: idea that Kurt Cobaine took the riff of smells like
4:24
Speaker 1: teen Spirit from more than a feeling that song Teen
4:28
Speaker 1: Spirit had exactly the same kind of transitional effect all
4:32
Speaker 1: those years later. Is it fifteen years later and it's
4:37
Speaker 1: a hugely impactful song across two generations.
4:40
Speaker 2: Journey became almost a template for aor, But before Steve
4:45
Speaker 2: Perry arrived, Journey was more of a musician's band. Steve
4:50
Speaker 2: is quoting a book about how his voice in Neil
4:52
Speaker 2: Sean's guitar were like salt and pepper. Did Steve Pierry
4:56
Speaker 2: essentially create the model for the AAR front man?
4:59
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that of all the people in the book,
5:03
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's there's a lot of pivotal characters
5:06
Speaker 1: in it. Tom Schultz is obviously one of the pivotal characters.
5:08
Speaker 1: I think Mick Jones is another, and Lou Graham. But
5:13
Speaker 1: I think for me, Steve Perry is the guy who
5:15
Speaker 1: tells over the whole era in terms of impact and
5:19
Speaker 1: the talent as well. I think Steve Perry would have
5:22
Speaker 1: been a great singer in any era and in any
5:26
Speaker 1: style of music he chose to apply himself to. But yeah,
5:29
Speaker 1: that high tenor voice that the mayt of people that
5:35
Speaker 1: took that on or that that looked to Perry as
5:38
Speaker 1: an influence, I don't think it's that much of a mystery.
5:42
Speaker 1: We don't stop believing why that song's endured one. It's
5:45
Speaker 1: a great song, but I think arguably it's the most
5:48
Speaker 1: perfectly sung song. His vocal on that song is incredible.
5:52
Speaker 2: It's incredible. Yeah, it's almost it's non human when you
5:55
Speaker 2: listen to his voice. It, I mean, it's like he's
5:57
Speaker 2: from another planet. The book also gets to the high
6:00
Speaker 2: price to pay for making it during that era. Carrie
6:03
Speaker 2: Livgren of Kansas talks about success creating an invoid. What
6:07
Speaker 2: were the most common pitfalls of success during that era.
6:11
Speaker 1: I think one of the things to be successful in
6:13
Speaker 1: that era the amount of work that these guys did.
6:17
Speaker 1: You know, you went out on the road for months
6:19
Speaker 1: at a time. It wasn't like, you know, twenty thirty dates.
6:22
Speaker 1: It was year long tours. I think in terms of
6:27
Speaker 1: we're just mentioning those vocals vocalists, for one thing, You
6:31
Speaker 1: sing in a height and a voice night after night
6:33
Speaker 1: out on the road. That's hard physical. It's almost like
6:35
Speaker 1: a you know, a baseball picture. How difficult that is
6:39
Speaker 1: to do it night after night after night. So those
6:41
Speaker 1: guys were I think it was Steve Perry or Lou Grahamson.
6:45
Speaker 1: You know, it was almost like running a marathon every
6:47
Speaker 1: night and Perry having a wake up the next morning
6:50
Speaker 1: wondering if he got a voice for that that evening show.
6:53
Speaker 1: So it's hard on vocalists, I think, just generally working
6:57
Speaker 1: that hard in the music business in close proximity with
7:02
Speaker 1: other band members constantly. You know, egos tend to run
7:06
Speaker 1: out of control personal battles. The eighties, seventies and eight
7:11
Speaker 1: is obviously in the music business. Columbia's finest product was
7:16
Speaker 1: quite prevalent at the time, and I think just to
7:19
Speaker 1: just to keep going and keep doing what they did,
7:22
Speaker 1: I think it exacted a high price. I think it's
7:25
Speaker 1: Mott Lang who told def Leppard Thomas Dolby was working
7:29
Speaker 1: on Pyromonius def Leopard album, and Lang told him, we're
7:33
Speaker 1: already married just by what we do. The idea that
7:36
Speaker 1: you could have personal relationships and continue personal relationships when
7:40
Speaker 1: you're pretty much out on the road all the time.
7:42
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I just think that the personal custom,
7:45
Speaker 1: what it does to your head as well, that level
7:47
Speaker 1: of success, because it's almost unthinkable now you know the
7:50
Speaker 1: number of bands from that here who sold ten million
7:53
Speaker 1: plus copies of an album. That's success on a staggering scale.
7:57
Speaker 2: Def Leppard with Pyromania, hysteria, massive sellers, bon Jovi Slippery
8:03
Speaker 2: when wet, New Jersey massive sellers. The pressure that I
8:07
Speaker 2: can imagine the pressure on the vocalist too, Like you said,
8:11
Speaker 2: they have to go out there night after night, and
8:12
Speaker 2: that fear that maybe they wake up one morning and
8:14
Speaker 2: their voices shot, it's gone. You know that that pressure,
8:18
Speaker 2: that every day pounding pressure. You know, it has to
8:22
Speaker 2: you have to have a certain personality type to be
8:24
Speaker 2: able to withstand that.
8:26
Speaker 1: I think I think John bon Jovi's talked about it,
8:28
Speaker 1: hasn't it. I mean, John Bunjovi said, you know that
8:30
Speaker 1: you look at the cover picture of him on the
8:32
Speaker 1: back cover of the New Jersey album when he's unshave,
8:35
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, we pretty much left home
8:38
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty seven and we didn't come back for
8:40
Speaker 1: three four years, and it was constant treadmill. The way
8:43
Speaker 1: you did that, that's that's hard grind, hard graft.
8:46
Speaker 2: There's also the almost famous side of this era, the
8:49
Speaker 2: chapter titled Michael Bolton and Blackjack, the AAR supergroup that
8:53
Speaker 2: never was. Bolton on vocals, Future Kiss guitarist Bruce Cullick,
8:58
Speaker 2: Sandy Gennaro on drums, Sandy Gray. He was on the show.
9:01
Speaker 2: He was talking about he's got a couple of books out.
9:03
Speaker 2: I believe he was a guest on the podcast, and
9:05
Speaker 2: Jimmy haslip on bass Now on paper, Blackjack had all
9:09
Speaker 2: the ingredients, strong players, big voice, label backing as well.
9:13
Speaker 2: Why did it not connect?
9:15
Speaker 1: That's one of those unanswerable questions, isn't it. I mean,
9:17
Speaker 1: I think it's the reason obviously that you put that
9:21
Speaker 1: chapters in there, for the idea that there were always
9:23
Speaker 1: those great misses. You know, in the midst of all
9:25
Speaker 1: these records selling, you get something like Blackjab and if
9:29
Speaker 1: you just Michael Bolton alone, that voice alone, and with that,
9:34
Speaker 1: they've got led Zeppling's lawyer was the guy who negotiated
9:37
Speaker 1: the deal and was in the background manage and they
9:40
Speaker 1: just looked like they were a sure thing. And for
9:42
Speaker 1: whatever reason, there's always those stories. There's always the exceptions
9:46
Speaker 1: to the room. Later on in the book, you've got
9:49
Speaker 1: Giant who gets signed by Atlantic Foreigners label and they
9:54
Speaker 1: believe they were onto an absolute sure thing and it
9:57
Speaker 1: just just didn't happen.
9:59
Speaker 2: No Ryman reasons, I'm times.
10:00
Speaker 1: No, no, it's just it's just it's I mean, It's
10:02
Speaker 1: a crapshit, isn't it. It's look of the draw, right place,
10:05
Speaker 1: right time, right songs sometimes right and you know there's
10:08
Speaker 1: there's no there's no guarantee with any of it.
10:12
Speaker 2: Cheap Tricks live at Buddhakhan. That's covered in the book too.
10:15
Speaker 2: Was this the moment that the audience became an active
10:18
Speaker 2: participant in aoar success?
10:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another great question. Yeah, I mean because it's
10:24
Speaker 1: that notion. Yeah, like you said, the idea that this
10:27
Speaker 1: was corporate music, that it was somehow saniti is all
10:31
Speaker 1: these bands went out and actually played to people. All
10:34
Speaker 1: these bands and artists made music to tape in a studio.
10:38
Speaker 1: A lot of the songs came together.
10:40
Speaker 2: In the room.
10:40
Speaker 1: But I think the audience is hugely important in this
10:43
Speaker 1: because it's quite and that the music's evocative, it's quite emotional,
10:48
Speaker 1: it's powerful. It doesn't work without that sort of connection
10:52
Speaker 1: with an audience. Exactly the same way as you know,
10:55
Speaker 1: arguably captured the Journey albums, that albums that teed them
10:58
Speaker 1: up for escape because they were fantastic live band and
11:02
Speaker 1: those songs sounded great like but Buddha cun is that again,
11:08
Speaker 1: cheap trip don't happen without that record, right right.
11:11
Speaker 2: Kiss Alive was another example. I can't remember which came first.
11:14
Speaker 1: I think I think kiss Alive came first.
11:17
Speaker 2: I think is it seventy seventy six.
11:21
Speaker 1: Seventy six? Yes, I think it probably came You probably
11:24
Speaker 1: proved me wrong my memory these.
11:25
Speaker 2: Days, seventy five seventy six somewhere around there. But yeah,
11:29
Speaker 2: that was the era too when when live albums they were,
11:32
Speaker 2: you know, huge money maker for labels, and they weren't
11:34
Speaker 2: expensive to make, so they didn't have to hire a
11:37
Speaker 2: studio time record the show. How about Heart and Pat Benattar?
11:41
Speaker 2: How important are they improving? AOAR wasn't just a boys club?
11:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the first one of the really
11:47
Speaker 1: interesting side issues. I mean, they talked quite a lot
11:51
Speaker 1: Anna Nancy Willson when I interviewed them. They were they
11:54
Speaker 1: were very honest about the environment they went into as
11:59
Speaker 1: women in a rock band. At that time, labels were
12:03
Speaker 1: very male oriented. Media was very male oriented. It was
12:07
Speaker 1: a testosterone feel thing, and you know, they were objectified.
12:11
Speaker 1: They were almost passed over as a sort of you know,
12:17
Speaker 1: just as you know the way that they advertised that
12:19
Speaker 1: first Heart record, as you know, the sort of salacious thing.
12:24
Speaker 1: And I think they're incredibly important because they were strong, decisive,
12:28
Speaker 1: powerful musicians. And the same with Pat Benattart. There was
12:31
Speaker 1: nobody in control of Pat Benattar's destiny other than Pat Benattar.
12:36
Speaker 1: And yeah, it is important and it's it's I don't
12:40
Speaker 1: think they stuck a blow for everybody that's pretty much
12:44
Speaker 1: followed in their way. You know, who fronts around any
12:46
Speaker 1: woman in a rock band. Also because I think, you know,
12:51
Speaker 1: Nancy Wilson talks about they Nancy Wilson couldn't find a
12:55
Speaker 1: female influence because there wasn't anybody who played rock guitar, right, Yeah,
13:01
Speaker 1: so she took it from Jimmy Page because there was
13:03
Speaker 1: no one else. She was pretty much right in the
13:06
Speaker 1: rule book as she went along.
13:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I never thought about that. Janis Chaplin vocalist, Yeah, yeah,
13:11
Speaker 2: I never thought about that. And of course then they
13:13
Speaker 2: went to that period where Anne talks about she the
13:15
Speaker 2: outside songwriters beautiful women. So let's capitalize on that. Let's
13:19
Speaker 2: get him dressed up, let's put them in the videos.
13:21
Speaker 2: And that was a period that Anne was not too
13:23
Speaker 2: fond of. Although I love those songs, you know, I mean,
13:26
Speaker 2: it's just maybe our age. I mean that that's those
13:29
Speaker 2: are great songs, but I see where she's coming from
13:32
Speaker 2: because those songs may not necessarily be reflective of how
13:35
Speaker 2: she really felt, but they're hit singles like they had.
13:39
Speaker 2: Is a Desmond child that wrote songs for them? Or
13:41
Speaker 2: was it ron Nevison?
13:42
Speaker 1: I think I think ron Ron Neverson pulled in so
13:46
Speaker 1: Jim Vallance he used Jim Valence songs, didn't he They
13:48
Speaker 1: had Holly Knight and people like that. So I think
13:50
Speaker 1: Neverson had different people when when they brought him in,
13:53
Speaker 1: he'd got he'd got different songs that he got on
13:55
Speaker 1: the shelf that he'd be recommended and put them in
13:58
Speaker 1: touch with.
14:01
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14:04
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14:34
Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
14:37
Speaker 2: to the show. Yeah, how about bands like Yes, Genesis
14:41
Speaker 2: with Phil Collins, Kansas Sticks all had great success during
14:46
Speaker 2: that era. Why did so many progressive bands begin streamlining
14:50
Speaker 2: their sound during the aoar boom? Was this a conscious
14:53
Speaker 2: commercial pivot or was it a natural evolution?
14:56
Speaker 1: The Kansas guys were pretty honest about it. I think
14:58
Speaker 1: that the Kansas guys were very much like you and
15:01
Speaker 1: Blewis to Court as well, who were not progressive, but
15:03
Speaker 1: they're obviously from that, not strictly in aor band. But
15:08
Speaker 1: Donald Rosier that the guys in Kansas will very honestly say,
15:11
Speaker 1: you know, the label puts on the pressure you need
15:13
Speaker 1: to ever hit single, you need to get songs on
15:15
Speaker 1: the radio. And I think in terms of all of
15:20
Speaker 1: those bands, first of all, it's the sound. I think
15:23
Speaker 1: you become aware of the set if you're touring America
15:26
Speaker 1: for any length of time or in America for any
15:28
Speaker 1: length of time during that period. You hear what's on
15:31
Speaker 1: the radio, and you hear the guys that are making
15:34
Speaker 1: the records that that get on that radio. So I
15:37
Speaker 1: think they first of all, they knew that. I mean,
15:39
Speaker 1: h pajim Is, the Genesis producer, said he spent so
15:41
Speaker 1: much time in the States love listen to the radio,
15:44
Speaker 1: so he began to understand what would sound great on
15:47
Speaker 1: the radio. So I think there's there's partly that you
15:51
Speaker 1: respond to where you are at the moment. You respond
15:54
Speaker 1: to the influences around you, in the environment you're in.
15:57
Speaker 1: And for sure, I think all those bands assigned to
16:00
Speaker 1: major labels, and the one thing major labels wanted during
16:03
Speaker 1: that time was hit single and hit records, so that
16:07
Speaker 1: they were they were for sure, they were told four
16:12
Speaker 1: minutes songs gets on the radio. I mean Asia, who
16:16
Speaker 1: obviously you know, featured members of King Crimson and yes,
16:21
Speaker 1: John Kalodna put that band together completely with the idea
16:24
Speaker 1: that they were going to start writing hit single.
16:27
Speaker 2: The first song that comes to mind for Kansas is
16:29
Speaker 2: fight Fire with Fire, right, I mean, that's like the classic,
16:32
Speaker 2: that's the AOAR influence.
16:35
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:36
Speaker 2: Paul Reese is the author of Raisin Radio, Power Ballads, Cocaine,
16:39
Speaker 2: and Pay All the AAR Glory Years. In nineteen seventy six,
16:42
Speaker 2: to nineteen eighty six. The power Ballad was basically Aoar's
16:46
Speaker 2: emotional engine. Bands with a harder edge like Foreigner having
16:49
Speaker 2: huge success with songs like I Want to Know What
16:51
Speaker 2: Love Is, but Lou Graham worried that the band was
16:54
Speaker 2: getting too soft, which led to his exit from the band.
16:57
Speaker 2: Was that an isolated issue or a wider struggle that
17:01
Speaker 2: a lot of these bands face between staying rock, maintaining
17:06
Speaker 2: the rock roots and chasing a broader audience.
17:09
Speaker 1: I think it's a common thread, you know. Graham's probably
17:13
Speaker 1: the most explicit about it, you know, particularly with I
17:17
Speaker 1: Want to Know What Love Is. I think that he
17:19
Speaker 1: felt at that point they were they were becoming something
17:24
Speaker 1: he felt uncomfortable with him. But I think all those bands,
17:28
Speaker 1: you know, the idea it became a you need to
17:30
Speaker 1: have a ballad on the album, or you need to
17:32
Speaker 1: have that that kind of song on the record. I
17:35
Speaker 1: think Neil Sean less so now, but he you know,
17:38
Speaker 1: famously did not like Open Arms and did and and
17:43
Speaker 1: didn't really feel comfortable performing it. He says now he's
17:46
Speaker 1: changed his mind over that song. Gary rich Ruth from
17:53
Speaker 1: YEH not happy with you know, because he was the
17:56
Speaker 1: prime songwriter before Kevin Crohnin comes up with people on
18:00
Speaker 1: Loving You and that the minute that he wrote the
18:04
Speaker 1: big hit, that changes the guys in stix other one,
18:07
Speaker 1: you know, James Jong, Tommy Shaw less comfortable with the
18:12
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, Dennis Dejung writes hit balance. But
18:15
Speaker 1: I think it's that separation point, isn't it all bands,
18:17
Speaker 1: If there's a guy who writes those kind of songs
18:20
Speaker 1: and writes the hits, they become the main guy in
18:23
Speaker 1: the band. And that in any environment, when you're in
18:26
Speaker 1: a group of people, that there's always the first among
18:29
Speaker 1: equals and it doesn't necessarily go right down well with
18:32
Speaker 1: everybody else.
18:33
Speaker 2: Was the aour era the first time that labels actively
18:37
Speaker 2: pushed outside writers on to establish rock bands. Had it
18:41
Speaker 2: happen prior to that? I think in the fifties they
18:44
Speaker 2: were all outside songwriters, right.
18:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Tim Panelli, I mean it was a tradition
18:49
Speaker 1: of the music business. You could mowtown all. So it
18:52
Speaker 1: had been within the music industry that these Bengali figures,
18:58
Speaker 1: there were these people that wrote the song, be it
19:01
Speaker 1: from Elvis to to wherever you want to join the
19:03
Speaker 1: dots that there were always songwriters. I think the thing
19:08
Speaker 1: with the rock here obviously is you come out. You
19:11
Speaker 1: have this thing with the Beatles and the Stones and
19:13
Speaker 1: Zeppelin and people like that, and then the Birds and
19:16
Speaker 1: Neil Young that the the artist is the songwriter, and
19:20
Speaker 1: it becomes this sort of sacrisanct thing that you know,
19:23
Speaker 1: you write your own songs that if you don't, it's
19:25
Speaker 1: somehow invalidates it, or it's it damages your standing as
19:32
Speaker 1: an artist, and it's you know, ultimately, the songs of songs,
19:36
Speaker 1: a song, you know, our bon Jovi any lesser of
19:39
Speaker 1: a band because Desmond Child had a hand in writing
19:42
Speaker 1: Living on the Prayer is Pyramania or Hysteriany lesser of
19:46
Speaker 1: an album because of mort Lang's input on it and
19:49
Speaker 1: the fact that he gets songwriting credits. I just think
19:52
Speaker 1: you do what you do the great songs of great songs.
19:55
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter where it's come from, and it
19:58
Speaker 1: doesn't lessen the the quality of the people performing that song,
20:02
Speaker 1: because how.
20:03
Speaker 2: Much did listeners know the difference?
20:06
Speaker 1: Yeah? And do they do? People actually care?
20:08
Speaker 2: They care? Yeah?
20:10
Speaker 1: I mean you're not, you're responding to the song. It
20:14
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. You know. One of the I think one
20:17
Speaker 1: of the great songs that came out of that era
20:19
Speaker 1: is Boys of.
20:20
Speaker 2: Summer Henley written by Mike Campbell, written by.
20:25
Speaker 1: Mike Campbell, that song that Tom Petty had sort of
20:27
Speaker 1: gone not really not for me, and Don Henley writes
20:32
Speaker 1: the lyrics of it, and and that's incredibly important. But
20:36
Speaker 1: that song is a Mike Hambilson. Does it matter that
20:39
Speaker 1: Mike Campbell's involving it's not all Henry's. I don't think
20:41
Speaker 1: it matters a bit. It's still Henley. Still, there's no
20:44
Speaker 1: one sings that song like Henley, so yeah, and same
20:48
Speaker 1: with a Loan by Heart. You know, there's a Ann
20:51
Speaker 1: Wilson did not want to sing that song originally and
20:54
Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable. But no one sings that song like Anne Wilson.
20:58
Speaker 1: And that that's that's the hard part. That's equation. It's
21:01
Speaker 1: still hugely important the performer as well.
21:03
Speaker 2: Well. What's impressive though, when you think when you realize
21:06
Speaker 2: that Ann Wilson, something like Anne Wilson didn't want to
21:08
Speaker 2: sing the song, and you you hear her singing on
21:10
Speaker 2: the song so passionately. You know, that's a pro. I
21:13
Speaker 2: mean that's an absolute pro because you would not know that,
21:16
Speaker 2: you wouldn't listen to song and say, oh, you could
21:18
Speaker 2: tell she doesn't care.
21:19
Speaker 1: Ann Wilson is not phoning it in on that song.
21:22
Speaker 2: No, she's not. You may know this story. Mike Campbell's
21:25
Speaker 2: book came out recently and he talked about how Tom
21:27
Speaker 2: Petty was like, yeah, man, I got to give that
21:29
Speaker 2: to you. I kind of I kind of screwed up
21:31
Speaker 2: on and then he wrote Runaway Trains for Petty. He said,
21:35
Speaker 2: I'll give you another Boys of Summer like song, and
21:38
Speaker 2: it was Runaway Trains, which is off of let Me Up,
21:41
Speaker 2: I've had Enough.
21:43
Speaker 1: Actually, one of my favorite Tom Petty songs is when
21:46
Speaker 1: I Didn't know that.
21:47
Speaker 2: Oh cool. Yeah, Now when you listen to it, you'll
21:49
Speaker 2: be like, oh yeah, the beginning, you know, that's that's
21:52
Speaker 2: you can hear it there. Yeah. Let's talk a little
21:54
Speaker 2: bit more about Mutt Lang. He's basically like the sonic
21:57
Speaker 2: architect of that polished arena rock sale. What he did
22:01
Speaker 2: for ac DC with Howard Helen back in Black Death Leopard,
22:04
Speaker 2: the Cars, with Heartbeat City, The proof is in the numbers.
22:08
Speaker 2: What made his productions immediately recognizable compared to other producers
22:13
Speaker 2: of the time, Well.
22:14
Speaker 1: I think it's the starting point was. Mc jones kind
22:17
Speaker 1: of pointed that that that mo Lang grew up in
22:21
Speaker 1: grew up into the business in South Africa. He wrote
22:23
Speaker 1: radio jingles in South Africa, so he knew and he
22:29
Speaker 1: was educated in exactly what worked as a radio song.
22:32
Speaker 1: And I think his probably what set him apart was
22:37
Speaker 1: he did it to the nth degree. I mean, if
22:39
Speaker 1: you read the book, he's an obsessive perfectionist to the
22:43
Speaker 1: nth degree. You know, went to the boardline, limits of
22:49
Speaker 1: human patients and endurance to get what he wanted. So
22:52
Speaker 1: I think that sets it's it's music so perfectly crafted,
22:57
Speaker 1: it's almost you know, it's all most impossible to believe
23:01
Speaker 1: he did that. But though that sound he gets, it's
23:04
Speaker 1: instantly identifiable as Mut Lange. You know that the vocals,
23:08
Speaker 1: I think the vocal harmonies are extraordinary, and the precision
23:13
Speaker 1: with which it's put together. And I think Brian Adams
23:17
Speaker 1: said that the one thing that made Lang was every
23:20
Speaker 1: vocalist he worked with, he got the best ever vocal
23:23
Speaker 1: that they've ever done out of them. I think that's
23:27
Speaker 1: probably if you picked anything out Mutlang's thing, it's that
23:31
Speaker 1: precision in writing a song or arranging the song and
23:34
Speaker 1: then the vocal, the vocals of the harmony vocals in
23:38
Speaker 1: mut Lang's works are monumental, and that thread from him
23:44
Speaker 1: runs from what he did in this here into modern
23:47
Speaker 1: you know, he obviously went on and worked with Shania
23:50
Speaker 1: Twainian and you near the influence of that. I think
23:53
Speaker 1: in an awful lot of modern mainstream country music and
23:56
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift that that vocal arrangement is his biggest thing,
24:01
Speaker 1: I think.
24:02
Speaker 2: And a very low key guy. Try to find an
24:04
Speaker 2: interview with him, try to find a picture of him,
24:08
Speaker 2: and you.
24:09
Speaker 1: Try and contact him, try and find this literally, no,
24:12
Speaker 1: he's almost He is the man of mystery, which is
24:16
Speaker 1: for a man who's been responsible for so many hit records,
24:19
Speaker 1: is some achievement.
24:21
Speaker 2: The story the Craslery with Joe Elliott on Pyrammini, he
24:25
Speaker 2: said Muttlane pushed his push him so hard with the
24:28
Speaker 2: vocals that the blood, the blood would stop rushing to
24:32
Speaker 2: his head. So he'd have to stand upside down for
24:34
Speaker 2: a little bit just to get the blood phone back
24:36
Speaker 2: into his head, and then he'd go back in and
24:39
Speaker 2: go at it again, you know, until he could get
24:41
Speaker 2: it just so. But you're right, the biggest, the biggest
24:44
Speaker 2: difference to me is that Car's Heartbeat City album because
24:47
Speaker 2: everything prior to that had such a different sound. You know,
24:50
Speaker 2: it's a distinct difference in uh. And I'm also now
24:54
Speaker 2: I'm drawn a blank on who produced all the producer
24:57
Speaker 2: for the early Cars albums.
24:59
Speaker 1: He just passed away Thomas.
25:01
Speaker 2: Oh Roy, Thomas Baker, who did a fantastic job. But
25:04
Speaker 2: I think it was Ricord Kasik that said I want
25:07
Speaker 2: to bring in a different producer, right, He's the guy
25:09
Speaker 2: who made that call.
25:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I don't know that thing exactly
25:13
Speaker 1: what you said about bands making conscious decisions. You call
25:18
Speaker 1: him mut Lang. When you want to have a big hit,
25:21
Speaker 1: blockbuster record, you don't put yourself through working that all
25:25
Speaker 1: the you know, the the commitment required with working Mutlang.
25:31
Speaker 1: I love Heartbeats. I think it's such a great record
25:33
Speaker 1: and such a and again a brilliant, brilliant sounding pop album.
25:38
Speaker 1: Which is I guess, is the theme that that that
25:41
Speaker 1: keeps coming round and round in the book and through
25:44
Speaker 1: the air, that these records just sound great, that they
25:46
Speaker 1: sound brilliant.
25:48
Speaker 2: There's another guy you talk about. There is a chapter
25:50
Speaker 2: Mutlange with the Cars and David Foster with Chicago the
25:53
Speaker 2: great dictators, and we know what Lang did. Foster helps
25:56
Speaker 2: hear Chicago towards that ballad driven success. What was David
26:02
Speaker 2: Foster's magic touch? What was he like to work with
26:05
Speaker 2: in the studio?
26:05
Speaker 1: Well, I think the same thing. Foster's the first and foremost.
26:08
Speaker 1: Foster's a songwriter, knows how to write and arrange songs,
26:12
Speaker 1: so he has that. I think David Foster's just a
26:15
Speaker 1: fascinating character. So the idea, I think he again vocals.
26:20
Speaker 1: He he isolated the most important either the songwriter or
26:25
Speaker 1: the vocalist in the band. He's probably a man who,
26:29
Speaker 1: ironically from he did, shouldn't have worked with bands because
26:32
Speaker 1: it wasn't a healthy thing for either the Tubes or
26:36
Speaker 1: Chicago in terms of the band dynamic. But if you
26:39
Speaker 1: go into if you think of the Chicago at the
26:41
Speaker 1: time he goes into them, it's a sound sort of
26:43
Speaker 1: predicated on and based upon that horn section. And Foster
26:48
Speaker 1: goes in and said, the horns don't really matter on
26:52
Speaker 1: the records I'm going to make. He's got sidelines of horn,
26:54
Speaker 1: and he brings in people Steve Lucath and others, people
26:59
Speaker 1: who can write hit songs and and so you work
27:03
Speaker 1: with Peter Setira with with Chicago It's fee Way Belt
27:08
Speaker 1: and brings in Luke Rthur to write songs. So Foster
27:11
Speaker 1: is one of those guys. In another way, to Motlan,
27:14
Speaker 1: he did precisely what needed to be done to write
27:19
Speaker 1: hit songs and and didn't really really cared if he
27:24
Speaker 1: offended any egos or he said the apple cart along
27:27
Speaker 1: the way. It was all about the end result.
27:30
Speaker 2: And did Foster do the tubes? Was the Backwards Principle album?
27:36
Speaker 2: He produced that.
27:37
Speaker 1: One, Yeah, and the two big hits. You know, She's
27:42
Speaker 1: so unusual being one of them that the two big
27:44
Speaker 1: hits that they had, Foster's responsible for that. Luca that
27:49
Speaker 1: is the co writer on that with Wab and Wabe
27:53
Speaker 1: took the book that the rest of the band sort
27:56
Speaker 1: of objected to it and decided as a sort of
28:00
Speaker 1: democracy that they didn't want Foster to be their producer
28:03
Speaker 1: any longer.
28:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk to you later, Oh, talk to your layers.
28:06
Speaker 2: On the completion Backward Principle and then Outside Inside has
28:13
Speaker 2: She's a Beauty Yeah, two huge hits, Yeah, yeah Yeah.
28:17
Speaker 2: Tom Schultz paints a brutally negative picture of the machinery
28:20
Speaker 2: behind the hits the contracts, the leverage, the radio politics,
28:24
Speaker 2: and how success magnified conflict were legal battles almost inevitable
28:29
Speaker 2: once these bands become valuable assets.
28:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think the music business you're still coming
28:34
Speaker 1: out of, you know, the infamously sixties seventies contracts. You know,
28:39
Speaker 1: we're very much in favor of labels and or manipulative management.
28:45
Speaker 1: You know, the artist was usually bottom of the food chain.
28:49
Speaker 1: And I think when it's the same in any industry,
28:52
Speaker 1: isn't it or any business, wouldn't you get enormous success.
28:56
Speaker 1: There's always someone at the end of the line who's
28:59
Speaker 1: catching the check, and it's it's it's weighted one way another.
29:03
Speaker 1: I think in the music business, Schultz particularly because you know,
29:07
Speaker 1: like we said, the whole idea was it was a production,
29:10
Speaker 1: like you kept churning it the hits, and Schultz didn't
29:14
Speaker 1: play ball. Did Schultz wanted to sit in his basement
29:19
Speaker 1: agonizing over every last note.
29:21
Speaker 2: Every for years, many many years.
29:26
Speaker 1: So he was he It was kind of like the
29:28
Speaker 1: immovable object meets the unstoppable force with with him and
29:32
Speaker 1: Columbia Records and Schultz one which is an usual you know,
29:37
Speaker 1: victory for artists.
29:39
Speaker 2: Steve Howe caught in the book saying, I can't honestly
29:41
Speaker 2: say we never thought about money, because that would be silly.
29:44
Speaker 2: I have two children to send it school. And this
29:47
Speaker 2: is in the chapter titled Chicago Asia and the Fine
29:50
Speaker 2: Art of Reinvention. Don't responsibilities versus rock idealism?
29:55
Speaker 1: I think that was one of the things. I think
29:57
Speaker 1: it's because it's a rare moment of realism, isn't it.
30:00
Speaker 1: The Steve had the idea that real life, these were
30:02
Speaker 1: guys who you know, had responsibilities, had families, and you
30:07
Speaker 1: know it. It's a strange one, isn't It's the idea that.
30:10
Speaker 2: A lot of them will get into their thirties by
30:12
Speaker 2: this point.
30:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the idea that none of us make decisions,
30:16
Speaker 1: that being in a band excludes you from making decisions
30:20
Speaker 1: based on hard realities in life. And if someone says,
30:24
Speaker 1: you know, in the case of Asian Steve Howe, make
30:27
Speaker 1: a record with some formuli pop songs and your family
30:32
Speaker 1: will be secure for life, or carry on making twenty
30:36
Speaker 1: minute noodling epics forevermore. And he did the one you
30:39
Speaker 1: know that the Asia, And that's same thing with Jonathan Kainer.
30:43
Speaker 1: Think he says in the book, when Escape came out
30:46
Speaker 1: from Journey, the journey's lawyer said to him, you will
30:48
Speaker 1: never have to worry again where you know, about providing
30:54
Speaker 1: for family or about money. I think it's it's a
30:57
Speaker 1: strange thing in the hip hop era and to a
31:01
Speaker 1: degree in the pop here and there, it's that sort
31:03
Speaker 1: of great success is celebrated. The idea of people being
31:07
Speaker 1: able to consciously write hit songs is celebrated. It's almost
31:11
Speaker 1: sort of been in rock frowned upon, which is which
31:14
Speaker 1: is ludicrous. I don't again, I don't think the idea
31:18
Speaker 1: that you'd consciously it's not that easy to consciously right
31:21
Speaker 1: hit single. If they did anything, you do it, so
31:23
Speaker 1: it you know, it's it by saying we wanted some hits,
31:27
Speaker 1: you still got to go out and write them, and
31:29
Speaker 1: it's it's a hard thing.
31:30
Speaker 2: To do, and it's still an art form. In my opinion,
31:33
Speaker 2: it's an absolute yeah. Absolutely. The Bookdown Rock Podcast is
31:39
Speaker 2: part of the Boneless podcasting network. If you're a fan
31:42
Speaker 2: of classic rock and classic film like I am, go
31:45
Speaker 2: to Boneless Dot Lovable Dot app to find over twenty
31:48
Speaker 2: great shows there that's Boneless down Lovable Dot app or
31:52
Speaker 2: just go to bookdown rock dot com, the Boneless podcasting network.
31:56
Speaker 2: It is what you want to be listen with confidence.
32:01
Speaker 2: There's the chapter on Billy Squire's Rock Me Tonight video
32:04
Speaker 2: marking the downfall of his career. I've read about this
32:08
Speaker 2: so many times and I think people really kind of
32:10
Speaker 2: blown out of proportion. However, this was the exception to
32:13
Speaker 2: the rule and was his MTV would help break an artist?
32:17
Speaker 2: Was this the beginning of the end for Classic ao
32:20
Speaker 2: R MTV?
32:22
Speaker 1: I think I think Billy Squad makes some interest, but
32:25
Speaker 1: I think it, like you said, it is over bakes
32:27
Speaker 1: the idea that that one song it was a hit single.
32:29
Speaker 1: At the end of the day it was still and
32:31
Speaker 1: the album from which it was taken went platinum, so
32:34
Speaker 1: you could you could argue that both ways. Up, I
32:37
Speaker 1: think the thing that MTV did that I think Billy
32:40
Speaker 1: Squad makes a really really good point. In the book,
32:43
Speaker 1: he said that previously on the radio, you were allowed
32:50
Speaker 1: to impose your own view of a song and create
32:53
Speaker 1: your own visual world around the song. So you'd hear
32:56
Speaker 1: a song and your relationship to it was sometimes you
33:00
Speaker 1: miss hear the lyrics, you wouldn't necessarily know what the
33:03
Speaker 1: people behind it made so you would create your own world.
33:05
Speaker 1: There was a mystique around it. Once MTV took off,
33:10
Speaker 1: and it took a while for MTV to be nationally distributed,
33:15
Speaker 1: that's taken away from you. The video becomes your connection
33:19
Speaker 1: to that song, and I think and also image becomes
33:23
Speaker 1: so much more important. You know, there was no one,
33:27
Speaker 1: no image maker was dressing Journey or a Reo Speedwagon
33:30
Speaker 1: or Toto or any of those guys. They were just musicians.
33:34
Speaker 1: And after MTV explodes, image becomes as important. The way
33:39
Speaker 1: you look becomes as important. And I think that did
33:43
Speaker 1: contribute towards marginalizing these bands because they didn't they didn't look,
33:49
Speaker 1: they weren't pinups, they weren't poster boys.
33:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody captured better than Mark Naufler Money for Nothing,
33:55
Speaker 2: Chicks for Free.
33:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely just.
33:57
Speaker 2: Encapsulated that whole era. Chapter seventy five titled end Days.
34:01
Speaker 2: Denny Carmassi of Hearts quoted underneath that saying the cracks
34:04
Speaker 2: started to become holes in the ground. What eventually led
34:08
Speaker 2: to the end of the AOAR era? Did they just
34:10
Speaker 2: finally get burned out?
34:12
Speaker 1: Partly that, and I think partly like this, the same
34:14
Speaker 1: with all musical movements, you know, there's there's a sort
34:17
Speaker 1: of narrative arc, isn't that there's a beginning, a middle
34:20
Speaker 1: where and a cresting and then a tip down the
34:23
Speaker 1: other side. I think partly that idea that it did
34:27
Speaker 1: become too prescriptive, that you know, power ballads became bi
34:33
Speaker 1: wrote and expected on every record, And partly exhaustion, you know,
34:39
Speaker 1: the idea that you can keep churning out hits and
34:43
Speaker 1: keep working. But also I do think that the MTV
34:46
Speaker 1: influenced that. The reason, you know, by the time you
34:49
Speaker 1: get to Hysteria and Slippery, when were those two records
34:53
Speaker 1: def levem bon Jovi are bands that fit MTV image
34:58
Speaker 1: as well. They were, they were good looking bands, and
35:01
Speaker 1: I think that sort of gives way and leads into
35:04
Speaker 1: pop metal and the hair metal, and suddenly you know
35:09
Speaker 1: guys who looked like Kevin Cronin and and that look
35:12
Speaker 1: a little bit old and a little bit staid and
35:15
Speaker 1: a little bit tired. And so I think it's just
35:17
Speaker 1: that inevitable course of events that there's always something new
35:24
Speaker 1: that appears younger and fresher and better looking and better
35:28
Speaker 1: package coming along, and that that probably tips it over
35:31
Speaker 1: the edge.
35:32
Speaker 2: The final chapter titled Resurrection. So you got people like
35:35
Speaker 2: Joe Elliott, Steve Lucather, Sammy Higgar, Brian Adams, Dennis Young.
35:39
Speaker 2: They're all talking about how this music has come back
35:41
Speaker 2: and these bands and these artists are playing to huge
35:43
Speaker 2: audiences after being dismissed for decades as uncool, these artists
35:49
Speaker 2: are now filling arenas again. And the streaming numbers you
35:52
Speaker 2: see it massive numbers. Is a R being rediscovered or
35:56
Speaker 2: is it finally being understood the way audience is understood
35:59
Speaker 2: it all along.
36:00
Speaker 1: I think it's a bit of both. I think it's
36:02
Speaker 1: a bit of both things, and I think it all
36:04
Speaker 1: boils down to, ultimately the same thing. Why any kind
36:09
Speaker 1: of music endrs And it's the strength of the songs
36:13
Speaker 1: and the performances. And these are great songs.
36:16
Speaker 2: You know that.
36:17
Speaker 1: There's a reason why that we said don't stop believing
36:20
Speaker 1: in Africa and hold the Line and whatever any other
36:24
Speaker 1: ones you want to quote, because they're great songs, brilliantly written,
36:29
Speaker 1: brilliantly perform And I think that where we are now,
36:33
Speaker 1: obviously with streaming and that sort of shifting the culture,
36:40
Speaker 1: I think the audience that grew up with those records,
36:43
Speaker 1: has never dropped those records. There's something so evocative about
36:47
Speaker 1: those records of time and plays. But I also think
36:50
Speaker 1: there's a generation now you listen to music now, you know.
36:56
Speaker 1: I've got two young sons of twenty one and seventeen.
37:00
Speaker 1: They respond to songs they don't respect. They don't care
37:03
Speaker 1: what people look like, they don't care what ear they're from. Okay, yeah,
37:07
Speaker 1: both of them heard separate ways by Journey when it
37:10
Speaker 1: was used on the trailer for Stranger Things, and to them,
37:14
Speaker 1: that's just a brilliant song. They have no absolutely no
37:17
Speaker 1: idea what. It's just a brilliant song, brilliant.
37:19
Speaker 2: And it's a brilliant, brand new song to them.
37:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly exactly, that's it's an absolutely brand new song.
37:26
Speaker 1: And I think that's it's it's almost come full circle
37:29
Speaker 1: in that sense. The way these songs were picked up
37:31
Speaker 1: by radio and people heard them on the radio, they
37:34
Speaker 1: said it perfect on radio. You put these songs on.
37:37
Speaker 1: Now you stream these songs, you listen, they still said perfect.
37:41
Speaker 1: They still they saying like they were recorded yesterday. They
37:44
Speaker 1: haven't dated in that sense at all, And I think
37:46
Speaker 1: that that's what makes the great pops on.
37:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just the vehicle in which they're now going
37:50
Speaker 2: to be delivered and has to change. The approach has
37:53
Speaker 2: to change, getting them in strangers things, putting them in
37:56
Speaker 2: Netflix series, movies, whatever it is, commercials, whatever it. Whatever
38:00
Speaker 2: you got to do is just at least reintroduce it
38:02
Speaker 2: or introduce it to a new audience is the key,
38:05
Speaker 2: and it's it's it's definitely working. Yeah, it's definitely. We
38:08
Speaker 2: got raised on radio power ballads, Cocaine and Pale or
38:11
Speaker 2: the ao R Glory Years nineteen seventy six to nineteen
38:14
Speaker 2: eighty six. And the book is out now. You can
38:15
Speaker 2: find it where books are sold. You can look forward
38:18
Speaker 2: at your nearest independent bookstore. Book down rock dot com
38:21
Speaker 2: is where you can find your nearest independent bookstore. And Paul,
38:24
Speaker 2: where can people find you online if they want to
38:26
Speaker 2: reach out to you?
38:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got it. There's a website. It's ref Paul
38:31
Speaker 1: Dash rece dash author dot com. So there's a website there.
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Speaker 1: I've got substack as well. It's called Access All Areas
38:38
Speaker 1: if you want to look at it. I think it's
38:39
Speaker 1: poor resuk at substack dot com if you want to
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Speaker 1: go there. So I'm right in there two or three
38:45
Speaker 1: times a week if people want to check that out.
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Speaker 2: Cool. And we were talking before we started recording that
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Speaker 2: the book is getting a lot of buzz and that
38:52
Speaker 2: popular channel Professor of Rock, he was talking about it
38:55
Speaker 2: in one of his videos and I saw it there
38:57
Speaker 2: and yeah, so people the word getting out there about
39:00
Speaker 2: this book. It's just a fantastic read. I love the
39:03
Speaker 2: Aour years, I love this music, and it's just great
39:06
Speaker 2: to finally get that complete story. And by the way,
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Speaker 2: as you can see the Van Hilln banner behind me,
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Speaker 2: there's that great chapter on the Sammy years with Van Hillen.
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Speaker 2: There's so much in this book. I mean, this is
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Speaker 2: just scratching the surface on this. So congratulations on a
39:20
Speaker 2: fantastic book.
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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Erran, and thank you for the
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Speaker 1: kind words and father, and they'll really enjoyed it.
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Speaker 2: That's it.
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Speaker 1: I just think it was appeared when people wrote great song.