Latest / Between the Headlines: Columbus / LINK Lawsuit Reveals Details Around Higgins' Firing

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LINK Lawsuit Reveals Details Around Higgins' Firing · Between the Headlines: Columbus

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: From the opinion page of the commercial dispatch, this is Between the Headlines.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: This is Peter Imes, publisher of The Dispatch.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: One of our hosts of Between the Headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Typically, we try to keep news and opinion separate, but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government, and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: The Dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity, and our reporting will always reflect that.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: And now between the headlines.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: This week on between the headlines, it would appear that the beans have been spilled, at least in part, about what allegedly happened with Joe Max Higgins in his final months at the link.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have court filings related there too.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And remember the Worth Thomas lobbying firm.
• 1:02
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• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: You are listening to between the headlines with your expert supplemental deer feeder and managing editor of the commercial dispatch, Mr.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Zach Plair.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And my name is David Chisholm.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the top headline today has to do with the Columbus Lounge link and a lawsuit that was filed in federal court that has to do with an insurance company failing to provide necessary coverages.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty complicated story, but in these filings we find some really interesting tidbits of information that otherwise would not have been made public.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we start with this, Mr.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Zach?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, obviously, let's start with the with the juiciest part, which now we know allegedly what employee blew the whistle on Joe Max Higgins and uh precipitated his dismissal from the link.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh allegedly, it was Betsy Young.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we also know kind of how that information was gathered.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: 700 audio recordings taken over a three-year period by his vice president of economic development.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: 700 recordings.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Plus.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: That is uh that's not willy-nilly.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a hot mic, that is um institutional.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, disclaimer, we're just kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall here.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know what happened or what's going on.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've not listened to these recordings.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact that they exist, Zach.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: What it says to me, we don't know the content of the recordings, but we know enough about why he was fired or why the executive committee said he was fired.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: You remember we're talking about uh they said that it was uh remarks that went beyond profanity that if heard would hurt every member of the community.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we've still got that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: And now we know that there's 700 recordings worth of, you know, potentially that type of content that was taken over uh three years, presumably without any knowledge of Joe Max.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Surely he would have contained it if he had known it was going on.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that it's uh an important point to make here because I've seen some of the Facebook comments about this.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Mississippi is a one-party consent state.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: So you can't put a recorder in somebody's office and run it and leave the room.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's not okay.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: But if you are one of the people being recorded, you don't have to tell anybody else that that recorder is running by law.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: So if she was in the room when the recordings were being made, they were legal.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so 700 recordings, one would really have to ask what the motivation behind uh that level of surveillance would be.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: All right, it just begs the question, uh, and and it I mean, I'm stepping out on a limb here, perhaps, but that makes it seem pretty obvious that that was quite a work environment.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Fair statement.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean it was enough of a work environment where she felt compelled to do that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the secondary questions were, you know, was this protection for herself?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Was this uh a dirt digging expedition?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: Went on for three years.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it didn't take him three years to say the things that would harm every member of the community, one would one would guess.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um because there wouldn't be any reason to stay at that for that long if if it was if it was a rare occurrence.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I don't know.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe she felt like if something did happen, she wanted to have something to protect herself, and evidently she did.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I want to shift over, however, to what a way to find this out.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Just to just to break down the mechanics of this.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Betsy did not out herself in a statement that she sent the dispatch.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: She has hired a lawyer and uh evidently is pursuing a settlement with or potentially could file some legal action against the link, but that hasn't happened yet.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we didn't learn about this from a lawsuit Betsy filed against the link.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't learn about this from a wrongful termination suit that Joe Max filed against the link.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: We learned this because uh the link itself filed a lawsuit against its liability insurance company for what it sees as m improperly protecting them against Betsy.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So are failing to protect them against Betsy.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Failing to protect them against Betsy.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there are a lot of ins and outs with that, but the basic two things are uh they claimed that the insurance company effectively denied their coverage and then later uh signed an attorney to the case uh uh that became the point of contact that started reaching out to Betsy's people without the plaintiff's consent, instead of allowing each of the plaintiffs, uh, which would be the link, the 13 members of the executive committee and Joe Max Higgins to hire their own attorneys.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: So there that's just a very convoluted thing.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: But what it in order for them to make that case against the insurance company, they had to out a lot of information about this that they otherwise probably would have tried to keep quiet and have up until this point, you know, tried to keep quiet.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so just a really unfortunate way for all of this to reach the general public.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's quite something.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's dirty laundry, if we can call it that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, uh you know, I'm looking at this and thinking about it, and and and the the big question comes to the floor, okay, why does this particular lawsuit exist?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not reason unreasonable to assume that this lawsuit exists because another one may be pending or because negotiations may be pending.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or um mitigation or whatever.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: The I'm not a a lawyer, but you see what I'm saying.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Something's going on that's rotten in Denmark.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, well, here it's out, and here the details are.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um Are we surprised by this?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm surprised by how this came out because what a way for it to come out, but I'm not surprised that it came out.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, eventually somebody was going to file a lawsuit in this.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: For it to be the link itself is kind of kind of blows me over.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: But but we were going to find these details out anyway, just by virtue of Betsy filing something or Joe Max filing something.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I'll tell you something that you're not ever going to find out, and it's going to be what was on those recordings.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because when this thing gets settled, um, and and I feel like it probably either, I mean, they must be on their way to getting that done.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because if those recordings are still out there in the wild, I doubt the link is talking about them.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: They either have secured them and destroyed them or know that they can, uh, and and there's NDAs forthcoming or already signed.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, they're not talking about these recordings if they think that there's any way in hell that you and I are ever going to be able to hear them.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Zach, let me ask you this.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a strange detail in there in the fact that it lists Joe Max Higgins Higgins as a plaintiff.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he was one of the people insured by this policy.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So his name just happens to be in there, and it's so weird in the overall context of things.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: He would be the defendant, one might think.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Right, but he was he was one of the people insured by this policy, so he is a he is a plaintiff in this particular suit.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the scope of this thing.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for it to be filed in federal court, I read that there was a minimum requirement of$75,000.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and the monet monetary um request in this case far exceeds that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what far exceeds, I think, is the operative because you can focus on the$75,000.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: $75,000 is just the trigger to get it into federal court.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: The far exceeds is the part that I would be focusing on.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: It it met the minimum criteria and kept on driving.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the amount of money then that the link has already spent in legal fees and you know whatever else trying to defend itself against Betsy's complaint.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, that could include any number of things, including a payoff to her.
• 11:42
  unknown: Ms.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Young, after the article came out, did send, like I told you earlier, a an email to the dispatch with a statement from her side of things.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: From her perspective, and we were talking about her motivation a while ago.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: I repeatedly asked the link to acknowledge the behavior.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Don't know how far back that goes.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Take corrective action.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Don't know how far back that goes.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And protect employees.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that might have been a three-year effort.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: That might have been an effort in the last three months using three years' worth of content.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: But instead, the retaliation I experienced became so severe that I could no longer remain in my role.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: She feels like she was forced out, and she's now saying these things publicly.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: And we know she has an attorney.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we would have assumed that already, but she says as much.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I've gotten legal counsel and I'm trying to negotiate with them to or I've tried to negotiate with them to keep this from going into litigation.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that$75,000 to me, or that far in at far exceeds$75,000, tells me that, you know, there have been offers or there have been settlements discussed that could be pretty big numbers.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: This whole plot adds a lot of extra layers to what we've known uh to this point.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that's interesting to me is um as I look through this, and and again, I'm just going off of what I see, and and I I'm not an expert in any of this stuff, but it it seems like the effort might be focused on the link and potential systemic issues with the link and not solely Mr.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Joe Max Higgins, which early on I thought that might have been the path of action that would have transpired through whatever was happening down there.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: I I I feel like the link definitely is uh trying to move on from that era.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they've been as forthright as they can with the public about that.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But from the filings we've seen, and and I know a a a a legal complaint is just one side of an argument, but it from what I'm reading, it is it is it insinuated that quite simply the link did not do that what they were supposed to do to either get rid of him sooner or clean up the work environment sooner?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: I can't I can't answer that question.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: I w I wouldn't even want to venture a guess.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean if I'm reading Betsy's statement, that's what Betsy thinks.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: In their complaint with the insurance company, it's it's what's strange to me is I've covered lawsuits against the city, I've covered the laws of lawsuits against the county that they've had to settle out of court and all of those things.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: And they come to a settlement, insurance company pays the settlement, and you walk up to the city attorney or the county attorney after, and you start talking to them, and they're like, Well, you know, or the board president or the mayor or whomever.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, Well, I mean, we weren't really involved in the negotiations, the insurance company did that directly.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we we handled our business, they brought us, this is what we've come to, this is what the settlement is, approve it or not.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's what we did.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: We weren't actually we weren't actually directly involved in that process.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: They handled it.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds very much like with this insurance company that that's sort of the road that they were taking.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, so we've we've got us a counsel that we've appointed, um, that's that's just gonna be the point of contact, deal with this and we'll let you know.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: The link is saying, one, they don't think that's proper, the link doesn't, and two, it's certainly not good enough because uh they want to get their own attorneys.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And one reason I can see why, to your point that you made a while ago about Joe Max being a plaintiff, the link and Joe Max are somewhat at cross purposes.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: May they maybe not in this particular lawsuit, but Joe Max's motivations and his interest are not directly connected to the link anymore.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I certainly wouldn't want somebody who is speaking for me also speaking for him as if the interest is entirely the same.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: They just fired Joe Max.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: So they don't have the same interests.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I can imagine certainly that the executive committee would want to be represented by somebody other than who's representing Joe Max.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I imagine Joe Max would would want the same thing for himself.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just the bird's eye view of this, it looks like it's potentially quite large.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It also looks to be a public spectacle.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and when you you put all this stuff together, it's just um I I can't help but wonder what's gonna happen to the link, what's gonna happen.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not saying they're going anywhere, but what I'm saying is is this gonna hurt our community?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got the the other side of the story where you're she's talking about mental anguish, and that's a very good job.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would hate to lose that job.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Vice President of Economic Development.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to deal with this problem.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to get it behind you in an effective way to where it doesn't cost you tenants for Cinco.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: And let us not forget that they've got until 2027 to be done with this, rebuild any caulk any cracks in their reputation that it caused, and get moving again, because 2027 is when each of their clients can start hiring Joe Max Higgins directly.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Won't that be a festive day?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not only that, Zach, but there is, as you know, an ongoing search for his replacement.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you you've gotta you've gotta reckon if you're if if you're talking to that search committee, if if you're one of those candidates, you're going, let me behind the curtain.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what would I be inheriting?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: And how much of this am I gonna be, or am I gonna be handed a broom and a mop and a dustpan when I get to the door and told good luck?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's what would happen.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the link is an organization that has been around for a long time and has its own reputation and has done well for itself.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: But I would be uh I'd be dang nervous about that if I was one of those candidates being seriously considered.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: You have a group of very capable and very intelligent, uh, and I think very well-meaning individuals all around.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: But they're also looking after their own interests.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately for this particular story, it appears to be playing itself out in the court of law within the public eye.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, next we will talk about the City of Columbus um fallout from the uh firing of the city lobbyist.
• 18:57
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• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, for this next segment, I got Mayor Stephen Jones to call into the studio and to give us his opinion on Satire Warning.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: The City Council's firing of the lobbyist.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's listen in.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh is it just me, or uh is is every occasion where someone or a couple of people or three people disagree with Stephen Jones end up in with this scenario where there's a boogeyman right around the corner?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want to talk about that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: I've got thoughts on that particular thing.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: You look ready to go today.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just give a little background first.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: So uh not to belabor the lobbyist pointing as we've talked about it and talked about it, but if you recall, the council during a work session fires a lobbyist.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Two days later, the mayor vetoes that uh firing, saying that the vote was taken improperly uh because he wasn't there, and that issue wasn't even on the agenda, so nobody was prepared to discuss it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Roderick wasn't there, Roderick wasn't there, Ethel had to be the mayor, so you know, all of this stuff.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then on Monday, Worth Thomas sends a letter to Stephen saying, you know what, we appreciate your veto, but don't worry about it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: We quit.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can't fire us.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: We quit.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: And in that letter, they make a variety of claims, one of which was that the emails and information that Jason Spears was requesting from them actually wasn't what he said it was, but it was a bunch of private uh client information that they couldn't that that they couldn't release.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Look, let's stop on that one real quick.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: So Worth Thomas, just to back up, they said that they had sent a bunch of emails to Keith Gaskin for the dispersal to the city council.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and they maybe did, maybe didn't, whatever, all that.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then Jason Spears was like, okay, show me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Show me the emails, and then we got the crickets.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then remember, these guys are on payroll.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of coughing that up, um, they they say, well, this contains personal information.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: They don't redact it, they don't try to send it, they just don't send it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they they more than that, they say that he requested more than what he said he did.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: He he didn't just request that, he requested a bunch of this other stuff that we couldn't send him.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh either there weren't any emails, or more likely, they were uh, shall we say, embarrassingly lacking in content.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think either one of those is equally possible.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because remember that the whole purpose of this was was for them to prove their their worth uh pardon the pun as the lobbying firm.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right, go ahead.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so to bring you all the way up to speed here, not so they quit.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's done.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's effective immediately, it's over.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: But uh the game is won.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you're if you're Jason and the four, the block of four who voted against this, it's done.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's over with.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, but but Jason can't let it go, man.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: They he believes that Worth Thomas lied on him in this letter.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: So he comes to the council meeting last night and he says, This letter has lies in it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: We shouldn't accept this resignation.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: I want to override the mayor's veto to uh to reassert that we fired him because whatever difference that would make, it would just affirm that we don't believe the content of this letter.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: And he he banged the table over this.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: He banged the table.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, we didn't because I'm just making but he he he made a uh he he's making this effort to clear his name when nobody thinks that he's done anything improper.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody thinks that he asked for anything he wasn't supposed to have, and if he did, they they're not saying that he did it on purpose.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody's paying any attention to that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just gotta say, I I started reading this story, and just as soon as I got like three lines into it, I'm like, oh boy.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because um it it appeared that we were getting on to matters that were uh moot point, your words, and not really progressing an agenda.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Beating a dead horse were Stephen's words, and I tend to agree with him in this case.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh let me tell you something about Jason.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm gonna go into a couple of things here.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Keep in mind he's he's 20 feet that way through that brick.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say that I'd say this to his face.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: I know he listens to the podcast, so he'll hear it later anyway.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: Jason's a good councilman.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's gonna he's gonna be a good councilman.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of good councilmen on this council.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: I can't think of a bad one.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: These are well-meaning people who will have the, in my view, have the city's best interest at heart even when they disagree.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Jason's Achilles heel, and you could see it as a uh you could see a straight line from his time in in on the school board all the way to now is he he doesn't he doesn't know when to take the win.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he he's like a guy who uh scores a touchdown, walks over to behind the goalpost, bends over and moons the student section because the points just aren't good enough.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Points are on the board, touchdown is scored, everybody's clapping, go Jason, and he's gotta moon the student section, and I don't understand why.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if Mississippi State's playing Arkansas and that happens, they're gonna let the touchdown still stand.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: But but I I feel like that's Jason's Achilles Hill, and I'll and I want to go back to in a second how that could be a detriment over time.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: But first I want to go back to Stephen and something that you mentioned on the very front end.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: After he after he issued this veto and the lobbyist quit, in an interview with me, he says, all of this is Kabir.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: All of this is Kabir pulling the strings with the council, okay, colluding with Jason, because I saw Jason at Helen's one time.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Remember that.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: I saw Jason at Helen's, and and then the Tuesday after I saw him, that was the first time he came after the lobbyist.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: I am I I do, you know, correlation and causation here.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: I those two are collaborating.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So him being in Helen's is evidentiary of collusion.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: And Kabir told me once that he was gonna take Worth Thomas away uh because I beat Leroy or whatever.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um and as you know, you know, Kabir and Leroy are friends.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Kabir, Kareem, who is a state representative for District 41, he's been on the show.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he endorsed Leroy Brooks, that would be Stephen's uh Democratic primary opponent for the mayor's race.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is obviously Kabir, according to Stephen, uh trying to pull the strings with the council.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: And moreover, a lobbyist since then has called City Hall and has said, I want to be another Jackson-based lobbyist.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be your new lobbyist.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And Kabir has told me that I already have the votes.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's important to know that Kabir has denied all of this entirely.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hearsay is not admissible in the court of law.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to take this in two parts.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: One, would Kabir do something like that?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Given the opportunity, uh with due respect to Kabir Kareem, he is a politician and would be a political operative if given the opportunity.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: So if he could run a shadow government through this council, uh I I would giving him some grace, I would say he would definitely be tempted to take that opportunity if he could.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about what it would take for him to accomplish that and who he would have to go through.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: And let's go in numerical order.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Starting with Rusty.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Rusty Green.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, he's really gonna put Rusty Green.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: He would have to get Rusty to be his puppet.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: He would have to get Lavon to be his puppet.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now, now, from what I understand about their, I think they are actually friends, but I mean, very independent voice on the board.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: She she calls BS when she smells it, and she does not back away from her own position.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: She's a powerful, independent woman.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and she's also reasonable, and so when you and so she's not impervious to new information and changing her mind.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: Gary Jefferson.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, you're not puppeting Gary Jefferson for any reason at any time.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just take those three for a second.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: Would they take Kabir's call?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Would they follow Kabir's instructions?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: No way.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely no way.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: They haven't demonstrated in any way that those are the kinds of councilmen that they would be.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it I tell you, if if I have it in my mind that that I'm not really trusting of Worth Thomas and I'm I'm just not feeling that I'm getting the bang for the buck, I'm gonna call Kabir Kareem because he knows about these people and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Which let's get to Jason.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I I I do believe that it is quite possible that that's what Jason did.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Jason on a single issue will align with whomever he needs to align with to get that to get that touchdown scored.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever he does after that is his business.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: But to get that touchdown scored, would he talk to Kabir?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think that Jason looks at an issue and tries to figure out how do I get my point across on this issue?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he just really did go in there for the pork chops and for the peach cobbler.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he did.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great place.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've eaten there a lot.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: What if I go in there?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that I'm colluding with the Democrats or something?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been in there.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great place.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I was mad at them for shutting down for COVID and staying shut for so long.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go by there and they were doing to-go plates, and it's like, no, I don't want a to-go plate.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go in there.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want to listen to that particular channel that you blare on the radio and enjoy my food underneath the Martin Luther King poster.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't like to eat in the car.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's just my rant for that place.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: But great place.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm with Jason.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to go there, I'm going to go there.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think you should stop.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what it would take for Kabir to be running a puppet government, and that's who he would have to go through to get it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's happening.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Whether Kabir would be motivated to do that or not, or whether he would take the opportunity to do that or not, is not even withstanding because he couldn't with this bunch.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Not in my opinion.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: So the question then comes, why is Steven so worried that that's what's happening?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: He sees the boogeyman at every corner.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean So why why is that though?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why does one one wonders when things aren't going his way is somebody else, or if he's going to lose his lobbyist?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is obviously Kabir using outside influence on the council and trying to run the council uh despite him.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: One wonders if he's seen that sort of behavior before.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: One wonders why he's so afraid of that particular thing happening.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe just maybe it's a uh uh just a behavioral habit.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's an unfortunate one because it's just not necessary.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think he can be the big guy and not not scapegoat and not come up with all this stuff.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't even help but wonder what he did on Halloween.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: He might stay at home inside his closet or something.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's pull the blinds, lock the door in the deadbolt, once watch unsolved mysteries.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or anyone.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Blame Kabir Kareem for Halloween.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: But if your mind goes immediately to an outside force is messing with me and has turned my counsel against me, the assumption is his mind went there for a reason and it's because he's seen it before.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I'm gonna leave that there and and let you draw your own conclusion about that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: But digest on that a little bit now.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Regardless of how we've gotten here, the city's at a crossroads.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: If the mayor thinks that he cannot build consensus on his own with the council, that looks a lot like last term.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: And we all know about last term.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not what Stephen wants to do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: If he is who he says he is, if he is who he said he was on the campaign trail, if he is who he says he was at the inaugural speech, he's working with anybody.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Jason said time and again, I'll work with anybody.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: So they both are coming at this with the same mind, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think either one of them want bad things for the city.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: So for one, those two need to sit down and have a beer, and they need to do it um in good faith, and they need to do it with both of them admitting on the front end, I know you want the best for the city.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: I want the best for the city.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Both admitting that the other one wants the best for the city, and instead of having a conversation of, I want the best for the city, but you're messing that up.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, I want the best for the city, you're messing that up.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: No, Kabir is messing it up, no Leroy is messing it up, no Baptist Hospital's messing it up.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of that, say, look, the given here is that we both want to do right.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: How are we missing each other?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe you don't agree on everything.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly you don't.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that is a conversation he can have with Gary and Lavon and Rusty, too.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: If you're Steven, you've got to learn how to take a loss, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're Jason, you've got to learn how to take a win and quit moon in the student section every time you get one.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really trying to get that visual level.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm never gonna let you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I wholeheartedly concur that the um I think within Stephen Jones that a larger man does exist, and and I don't think that he needs to keep looking behind his back.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when he does something stupid or when he says something stupid, we're gonna get behind these microphones and we're gonna call him out on it, and then we're gonna forget about it the next week and continue to hope for good things for the city.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: The the following week, after that news story has run its course, it's it's a new day.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do we have next for the city?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right, what next?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna go and rehash and air out all the stuff like we did at last meeting?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would simply say this.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um think about it as halftime.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: You got to come out of that locker room ready to roll.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what kind of lard, uh, what kind of yards you lost or gained first half.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Come out of that locker room ready to go because we are rooting for you.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just keep your mind in the game and keep your pants up.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that said, I'd I'd like to bring something up that um we do not talk a lot about in the city of Columbus, and that is the Plymouth Bluff Environmental Center.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's out there.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you take the first exit past the river, uh, you go right, there's a T, take a left there, and you'll see the signage on the right.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty place.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful place.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a hundred and ninety acres, and it is situated on the oxbow of the Tom Bigby River.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is a deep oxbow.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's downhill from the dam.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking, you look down, it's a hundred foot drop.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: All kinds of fossils, all kind of history.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um five miles of walking trail.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um by the way, not five paved miles, but uh no, half a mile paved, but five miles total.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: I got so excited when I read that and then I saw the correction the next day.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: But um beautiful place, and and I just think that that we should utilize that more.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do they have out there?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: They've got they have a conference center, they have um well, they have sort of tennis courts, but they they they need some money and some love on that.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe pickleball, you think?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: Ah I I I'm about to join the Save Tennis Foundation uh or or found it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even a big tennis player, but I'm I'm seeing the uh I'm seeing the desolation and removal of tennis uh everywhere I look now, and I'm like, I like pickleball fine, but can't we gotta leave some space for tennis.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's also the Save the Knees Foundation.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: I need to join that definitely.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's also a uh it's actually a property of the Army Corps of Engineers, but it's managed by MUW.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just it's just a great thing for those of you who are listening who um have said or your kids say there's nothing to do, you really ought to check this place out.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and and I'm guilty of this too.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm I'm bad guilty about this and and and tips at cdispatch.com.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I you know, every time we think, man, we need to take a day trip or we need to take a family needs to go get a cabin out someplace and just enjoy the outdoors.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: We're looking in Alabama, we're looking in Georgia, we're looking in Tennessee, and we're driving a long way when, you know, there's cabins out at Plymouth Bluff, and that's a pretty place.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: Rufus says you can find fossils out there.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um He also says there are ghosts out there.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's true from ships.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, that's true.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Steamboats in particular.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, uh I'm guilty of overlooking what's r right directly around me and driving hours when I can drive minutes.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I th I think we're gonna correct that.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think our family's gonna go out either uh uh before it gets too cold before the end of the year or sometime in the spring of next year.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're gonna book some of those cabins out there.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic stuff.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Before we leave here today, if I failed to read the paper, what did I miss?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: All right, three things to know.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't in uh Columbus or Lounge County, but it's kind of a big deal.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: Gunfight at a bonfire in West Clay County injured five just after midnight Sunday, including at least four bystanders.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: There were no fatalities, and so far no arrests have been made.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: Clay County Sheriff's Office is investigating.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: Two groups shooting at each other and at least four people, if not all five, just getting caught in the crossfire.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Mercy.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh number two, the Columbus Council on Tuesday appointed local attorney Chinee Bailey as the new municipal judge.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: So she replaces the late Gary Goodwin.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Mayor Stephen Jones said she will run all sessions of municipal court to start with uh while evaluating the need for a second judge and whether court should be in session multiple days a week.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh number three, the Columbus-led Canned Food Drive is wrapping up this week.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh non-perishable food items will be accepted at City Hall and the community outreach office through Thursday and at Fire Station 1 on 7th Street South through Friday.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Items will be distributed to those in need November 24th on the lower level of the Trotter Center.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that will do it for today.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: We thank you for joining us here in Catfish Alley Studio, where it is 40 days, 40 nights, and counting, you see what I did there, until the completion of the Columbus Amphitheater, pursuant to Mayor Jones's campaign promise.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Help us get the word out there.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's plenty of time.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's how long Noah was in the arc, right?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's how long it rained.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, yeah, that's right.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: He was in there longer than that.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think he can get it done.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: But make our hometown a better place.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Send us your comments, tips at cdispatch.com.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow me, Facebook or X at Dchishishm DoubleZero.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So signing off until next week, your host has been Zach Player, and I'm David Chisholm.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all keep it friendly and we will keep it real.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_04: Opinions expressed on this show are those of the speakers and not necessarily those of the commercial dispatch.