Latest / The Unmaking / S01E10: Jo Mills - Copywriter. The Outlet, Lake Wānaka

Transcript

S01E10: Jo Mills - Copywriter. The Outlet, Lake Wānaka · The Unmaking

0:00
[music]
0:15
SPEAKER_01: So Jo, welcome to The Unmaking.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: Where are we parked right now?
0:19
SPEAKER_01: And why did you choose this spot?
0:21
SPEAKER_00: We are parked down at the outlet.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: It is, I mean, it's magnificent.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: It's got the mountains,
0:27
SPEAKER_00: it's got the lake,
0:27
SPEAKER_00: but it's Nick and I, before we had kids, lived in a tiny, tiny little crib.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: It's now part of the campground.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: And I guess that's why we got engaged.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: So the sentimental value,
0:40
SPEAKER_00: but it was also I guess the point at which in my life I realised
0:45
SPEAKER_00: that Wanaka was going to be home.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: That's generally what happens when you get engaged to a Wanaka boy.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: So very special spot.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: We've camped here over the year with our kids, walked the dogs.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: It's just a very, very special spot.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: And did you have a relationship to the outlet, to this spot before you moved in here?
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Or was that, were you relatively new then to the area?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: No, I'd been living in Queenstown and moved over to Wanaka and into the house at the outlet.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: it was just waking up every morning with slight elevation as well
1:16
SPEAKER_00: to this was just magic.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: And at the time I was commuting over to Gibston every day.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: So bit of a schlep and just that kind of,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: in the days before North Lake,
1:27
SPEAKER_00: that final drive along The dirt track was the ultimate kind of like deep breath.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Yep, I've left my day behind and here we are.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting spot that the, you know, this is where the lake changes to the river.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Which I think is an interesting metaphor as well for you and your life and,
1:46
SPEAKER_01: you know, this sense of arrival and departure at once basically.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and still waters start flowing and I think that definitely happened when I moved
1:53
SPEAKER_00: to Wanaka.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: What's the earliest piece of writing you remember being proud of?
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, probably I,
2:03
SPEAKER_00: my mum and dad in the gosh,
2:05
SPEAKER_00: I suppose 90s got,
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I can't even remember what it was called,
2:08
SPEAKER_00: but this like bubble jet kind of all in one.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Computer and printer and I decided to write a newspaper.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: I can't even remember what it was called.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I sat down and I bashed out stories.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I must have been probably about seven or eight.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this was kind of pretty modern technology after the massive BBC computers.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of let loose creatively and it was it was fun.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: And was that something that you then immediately knew, okay, yeah,
2:40
SPEAKER_01: this is going to be the thing or one of the things,
2:43
SPEAKER_01: or was that kind of there and that was a fun little project as a young girl that you
2:48
SPEAKER_01: then moved on to other things?
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, it was just a fun project.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I went through...
2:54
SPEAKER_00: A phase, gosh, of thinking I was going to become a merchant banker.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: God, that didn't last.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: I didn't really know what to do, but I always enjoyed writing.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I did English and French and German at school and this big literature component.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: And I loved the reading and I loved the writing about the reading.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: So words have always been important.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it certainly didn't ever really feature on my radar at that point as a career.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: And you grew up on the outskirts or suburbs of London, is that right?
3:26
SPEAKER_00: West London, so not bang in the centre, but kind of close enough.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: Nice and green.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Again, kind of probably much like, you know, I think about it, very close to the Thames.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: My little primary school was right on the river,
3:39
SPEAKER_00: so, you know, there was always water in my life.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: And how were the roles at home divided up between your parents?
3:48
SPEAKER_01: What was your upbringing like and how typical was that for that time and for that place?
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, interesting.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Both parents worked.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Mum Retrained to be a doctor in her,
4:02
SPEAKER_00: when my sister was born, so what's that, probably in her 30s.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: And kind of went full time when I was about seven.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: From what?
4:11
SPEAKER_01: What has she been doing before?
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Before that, she'd been in publishing.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: But she, yeah, I guess...
4:19
SPEAKER_00: There was always like, there was never any question women worked and my mum was amazing.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: She juggled everything.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: My father's the cook of the family,
4:29
SPEAKER_00: which probably was less common and certainly he was and is a very creative cook,
4:36
SPEAKER_00: you know, and he'd come home at the end of the day, take his jacket and tie off.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Keep the rest of his suit on and put an apron on.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: It was kind of like a security blanket.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: And he was, as I say, you know, still is a very creative cook, but pretty equitable balance.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I'd say my mum's definitely the one,
4:53
SPEAKER_00: you know, if a plug needed rewiring or things like that, that was definitely her.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: And so slight,
5:00
SPEAKER_00: slight role reversal for that time,
5:04
SPEAKER_00: but didn't seem anything out of the ordinary because that's just what my sister
5:07
SPEAKER_00: and I knew.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: And do you know whether or not this was something they aligned on or it just happened that way?
5:14
SPEAKER_01: And did your dad's cooking,
5:16
SPEAKER_01: was that, hey,
5:17
SPEAKER_01: you're going to be doing the cooking and that's your job and then he developed
5:20
SPEAKER_01: that creativity or was it more, hey, I love cooking and this is my thing?
5:24
SPEAKER_00: It just happened organically.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, when he was at university, he...
5:28
SPEAKER_00: You know,
5:28
SPEAKER_00: I guess that would be what in the early mid-60s,
5:32
SPEAKER_00: you know, would cook for, you know, his friends and sell them their meals.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: It was early kind of ready meals, I guess, for them.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: So food's just always been his thing and it happened completely organically.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: I've inherited his complete lack of practical abilities.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, thank God for my mother and my sister for that matter.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: So you went on then to study English at Oxford.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Was there a plan in terms of what you were then going to do with
6:00
SPEAKER_01: that English degree once you'd finished?
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not at all.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was pure self-indulgence.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: I read books for three years.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: But again, I mean,
6:09
SPEAKER_00: I think my parents We're incredibly supportive and it was of whatever my sister
6:14
SPEAKER_00: and I did and it was very much do what you enjoy and the rest will follow.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And it was an absolute gift.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
6:22
SPEAKER_00: I think I probably around my mid time at Oxford decided that really I was going
6:26
SPEAKER_00: to kind of pursue food, which was And probably still is my first passion.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: And whether that was going to be catering or restaurant world, I didn't know.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: I hadn't done any kind of practical experience there.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's where I was headed.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And then in my final year, suddenly kind of wine reared its head.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: In what form?
6:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I understand alcohol and university.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: You have a pretty long standing tradition, but not often so much wine, Pat.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: No, certainly I was never a beer drinker,
6:59
SPEAKER_00: so wine was on my radar, but the stuff that we drank was not what I drink now.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: But our bar manager organised a wine tasting with Oddbins, which is a wine shop in the UK.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: And found out about it one afternoon,
7:17
SPEAKER_00: dragged my friend down to the college bar and probably about eight or nine
7:21
SPEAKER_00: of us sitting around being really self-conscious.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: But this guy was really down to earth, just talked us through wines.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And I guess perhaps after the first few tastings,
7:31
SPEAKER_00: we all loosened up a bit and it was suddenly like,
7:33
SPEAKER_00: oh my God, this is, this is fascinating.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And just the nuances of the wine.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know anything about the I guess the kind of practical or technical side
7:43
SPEAKER_00: of wine,
7:43
SPEAKER_00: but suddenly just considering wine beyond just,
7:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:48
SPEAKER_00: downing it in a glass that's far too big and everything else that was like,
7:52
SPEAKER_00: yeah, no, this is, this is interesting.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And did you have a natural palate for taste?
8:00
SPEAKER_01: When the person leading the tasting is talking about notes and things like that,
8:05
SPEAKER_01: were you picking up on those?
8:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually I was.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know whether that comes from, again,
8:11
SPEAKER_00: going back to food and my upbringing,
8:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:13
SPEAKER_00: we'd always been so interested not just in what was on our plates,
8:17
SPEAKER_00: but in terms of the flavours and what had gone into it.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think that was almost a natural Segue into the way in which I kind
8:25
SPEAKER_00: of approached wine and just having that kind of instinct or perhaps I don't know
8:31
SPEAKER_00: if it's instinctual or whether it's just more of a tendency to think about food and
8:36
SPEAKER_00: then kind of flavours in that way.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: So what came after that then?
8:40
SPEAKER_01: So you went to a wine tasting, oh my God, this is amazing.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: This is cool.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: I think a pivot might be coming up.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: What did that look like then?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, so...
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, right, how am I going to do this?
8:54
SPEAKER_00: So in my holidays,
8:55
SPEAKER_00: I studied for the Wine and Spirit Education Trust exams,
8:58
SPEAKER_00: which are, as they kind of suggest, exams for the wine trade in the UK.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And that gave me a really good grounding, I guess, in regions, the technical aspects.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's real kind of wine 101, but it's essential.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Then I decided I was going to finish up at Oxford,
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Go off to South America,
9:18
SPEAKER_00: learn Spanish,
9:19
SPEAKER_00: because I'd always wanted to learn Spanish,
9:20
SPEAKER_00: work in the vines for a year, you know, real kind of, kind of, what's the word?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Idealistic look at things.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I couldn't think of the word.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: But actually,
9:33
SPEAKER_00: then what happened was a friend of mine,
9:35
SPEAKER_00: who was slightly more assiduous when it came to actually thinking about careers
9:38
SPEAKER_00: after Oxford,
9:39
SPEAKER_00: saw in the careers newsletter that there was a London-based wine company
9:43
SPEAKER_00: that was looking for someone to join them, you know, who could speak French.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I applied in a kind of slightly half-arsed way.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: But somehow, you know, what's more by good luck than good management, got the job.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: And very soon after, started working in London for a French wine importer.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: And how did that reality,
10:05
SPEAKER_01: because,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: you had a different thing in your head in terms of the romance of South America
10:10
SPEAKER_01: and being there with the dirt and the soil and everything else going on,
10:13
SPEAKER_01: to then actually...
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Did that feel like a plan B then?
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Or, okay, this didn't quite work out like I was hoping for?
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Or did that enthusiasm,
10:22
SPEAKER_01: were you able to quite quickly go, oh,
10:23
SPEAKER_01: actually, no, this is really interesting, what I've actually stumbled into, perhaps?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the thing is,
10:29
SPEAKER_00: with the great kind of South America dream,
10:31
SPEAKER_00: I hadn't actually got that far in my thinking.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've just started kind of throwing this out there as an idea.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: So I think if I'd gone too far down that route,
10:39
SPEAKER_00: perhaps this would have felt like a bit of a compromise.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: But as it was, it was brilliant.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And it opened my eyes to exactly that, the trade.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: And actually after, I mean, I didn't stick in the job that long in the event.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: After four or five months,
10:54
SPEAKER_00: it's like, right,
10:54
SPEAKER_00: well, I can read about vines and pruning and these things till I'm blue in the face.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: But I think until I actually stand in a vineyard, it's not going to make sense.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: So I kind of Did a four month stint and I had a lot of,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: family and friends kind of saying like,
11:11
SPEAKER_00: not really a good look to be leaving your first job after four months.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
11:16
SPEAKER_00: I did it and came out to New Zealand and that really,
11:21
SPEAKER_00: it was like the, that final piece in the jigsaw falling into place.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: Like my first day in a vineyard, I was like, oh, now I get it.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: You know,
11:29
SPEAKER_00: I've been reading all these textbooks in a classroom in London,
11:32
SPEAKER_00: but actually Being there was brilliant.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: And then further down the line,
11:36
SPEAKER_00: those four months did me an excellent stead when it came to understanding what comes
11:41
SPEAKER_00: after the vineyard and the winery.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: The whole macro view of the industry.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: And so it's almost back to front
11:47
SPEAKER_00: because most people kind of perhaps start in
11:49
SPEAKER_00: the vineyard or the winery and then might see the business side.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: But actually, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with the way in which I did it.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: So what was the level of preparation like before coming to New Zealand?
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Was there blanket email bombs of every vineyard in New Zealand?
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Were you very selective?
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Did you just rock up here and try and figure things out once you arrived or what did
12:13
SPEAKER_01: that look like?
12:13
SPEAKER_00: All of the above.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's Kiwi Master of Wine,
12:18
SPEAKER_00: who's now back here,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: but at the time he was the wine buyer for Marks & Spencers,
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Sam Harrop, and I was working kind of with him in the UK, and I told him my plan.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: Now at that stage,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Again it was a bit like the South America idea of like I'm just gonna go off
12:33
SPEAKER_00: and do something.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: The only place I really knew of in New Zealand was Marlborough and
12:39
SPEAKER_00: so I said Sam I'm gonna go to Marlborough and I was 23, 22, 23 at the time.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: And Sam, bless him, said, do not go to Marlborough.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: You will go mad.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Central Otago is a really exciting place.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Queenstown's a great place for you to go and meet people, whatever else.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I will be eternally grateful to Sam, as he knows, for that advice.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: So once I kind of honed in on Central Otago,
13:06
SPEAKER_00: I did a whole load of reading,
13:08
SPEAKER_00: which in those days really was actually getting the books and reading what,
13:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, Jancis Robinson and other kind of wine commentators had to say.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And then kind of to your original question,
13:18
SPEAKER_00: yes, I did the blanket emails of, you know, hi, this
13:22
SPEAKER_01: is who
13:22
SPEAKER_00: I am.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Have you got anything?
13:24
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it was met with dead air.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people came back and just like, look,
13:28
SPEAKER_00: we're really small because,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: this is going back 23 years when,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: a lot of these wineries were real kind of one person,
13:36
SPEAKER_00: two person operations and they just simply didn't have the The space or the capacity
13:41
SPEAKER_00: for someone else.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: But I got some positive responses, a lot of, yep, get in touch when you're out here.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And then got a super positive response from Alan Brady,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: who was one of the founders,
13:52
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
13:53
SPEAKER_00: of the Central Otago wine industry, along with my parents and various others.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: And he basically was like,
14:00
SPEAKER_00: look, I can't give you a job, but You know, you sound like good news.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I wrote.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, come out here.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: I'll meet you.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: I'll show you around and get you some introductions.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: And that really then kind of, I guess, was the start of my central Otago life.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Did you have a clear understanding then of what you had to offer or was it purely
14:23
SPEAKER_01: the other way around?
14:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for a job.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm looking for a job.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: And I was looking for anything.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my first job was at Gibson Valley.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: My very first job was working for Grant Taylor in the vineyards,
14:34
SPEAKER_00: kind of in looking after his baby vines and being shown what to do.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: And again,
14:39
SPEAKER_00: that was one of those jigsaw moments of like,
14:42
SPEAKER_00: oh, this is what a baby vine looks like.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And this is what we're doing and why.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: And oh, yes, no, I remember that.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And then I got to work in the cellar door at Gibson Valley.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: So doing wine tastings,
14:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:54
SPEAKER_00: and I think I was definitely learning on the job because,
14:58
SPEAKER_00: you know, I was having to be the voice of authority to all these people.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Some of whom have probably been in New Zealand longer than I had at that point.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: But people were very generous with their time, with their knowledge.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think I went in with an open mind and a lot of curiosity.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: a lot of people working cellar doors are often just traveling and it's
15:21
SPEAKER_00: a working holiday visa job.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: But I went in saying this is...
15:24
SPEAKER_00: This is what I want to do and I want to learn and people were unbelievably generous.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Was that when you met Nick then when you first moved to central Otago
15:34
SPEAKER_01: or how long had you been here before you guys met?
15:39
SPEAKER_00: I met in passing my first weekend.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: So thanks to Alan,
15:44
SPEAKER_00: I volunteered at the Central Otago Pinot Noir celebration,
15:47
SPEAKER_00: which was the most incredible opportunity and again, introduction to the wine world.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: And some bloke called Nick Mills had left his diary lying on the ground.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: This was the shape of the decades to come, me cleaning up after him.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: But no, we then met properly Kind of a couple of months later at kind of
16:09
SPEAKER_00: a wine tasting stuff but kind of got together later in the year actually in London
16:15
SPEAKER_00: but you know he was on the radar.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: And then just a couple of years later,
16:20
SPEAKER_01: I think you had quite a big year that involved splitting up,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: moving to France to work on the harvest and then by the end of
16:27
SPEAKER_01: the year you were back here and were engaged and moving in at the outlet.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: So what was going on in that year?
16:35
SPEAKER_00: It was like 21 years ago and it feels like yesterday looking out there.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: So I guess, yeah, 2005, I'd been here a couple of years, a slight order change.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: I went to Burgundy first, so did vintage over there.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: And I guess it was, it was amazing.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know,
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Burgundy is, you know, the kind of, seen as this kind of sacred home of Pinot Noir.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: And I had a wonderful time.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: I was living in France.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: I was just seeing a whole other world.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: And I guess I was at that point...
17:06
SPEAKER_00: With where I was then at Mount Edwards and just,
17:09
SPEAKER_00: I guess, you know, age 25 of what am I going to do next?
17:16
SPEAKER_00: And it was just wonderful being back in France and being immersed in the kind of culture.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think the kind of romance of doing Harvest, it kind of seems a bit different.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a working holiday in itself.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: I decided I was going to leave New Zealand,
17:34
SPEAKER_00: which meant leaving Nick,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: move back to France, live in Burgundy, be close to my family.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: So I came back,
17:43
SPEAKER_00: left Nick,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: left my job at Mount Edwards,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: packed up all my stuff,
17:48
SPEAKER_00: and then I was staying with Grant Taylor,
17:52
SPEAKER_00: our winemaker friend over in Queenstown,
17:53
SPEAKER_00: and just had a kind of slight Oh my God, what am I doing moment?
17:57
SPEAKER_00: And thankfully it wasn't too late.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Next day I'm back here and Nick kind of says, you know, I love you, will you marry me?
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh yes.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, does that mean we're engaged?
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think he thought he might kind of get down on one knee or something else.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: But it was all kind of in its way very romantic in the kitchen of our little cottage up there.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Tremendously romantic.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: As I said to you before,
18:20
SPEAKER_01: I think there's definitely miniseries
18:24
SPEAKER_01: ripe in terms of thinking about the BBC's
18:28
SPEAKER_01: and Britain's fascination with Australia and New Zealand.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: That's a good love story.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure who had cast, but that's another story.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: So that was then,
18:39
SPEAKER_01: you then came into an amazing Wanaka dynasty in many ways,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: and pretty soon after then,
18:48
SPEAKER_01: so Lois Mills, the formidable matriarch of the family, offered you her job.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: I imagine there was a lot of weight with that.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: What did that feel like at the time?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: And looking back now,
19:06
SPEAKER_01: often you have that sort of youthful confidence perhaps,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: that looking back with the benefit of a little more wisdom and maturity,
19:14
SPEAKER_01: you think, holy shit, I really didn't know what I was doing.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: What was that like for you?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean exactly that.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I think at the time I just went in,
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say guns are blazing because you're absolutely right,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: there's huge pressure.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: When you're joining a family business,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: when it's not your family,
19:31
SPEAKER_00: and when,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: you are being handed the reins by someone,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: like Lois,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: who created,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: the business that is ripping,
19:39
SPEAKER_00: she and Rolf planted the vineyard, but,
19:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:42
SPEAKER_00: she was the one who was the wine was piling up in the garage,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: kind of said to Rolf,
19:46
SPEAKER_00: we actually need to sell our stuff and created a business model to do that.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: So, Yeah, there was a tremendous amount of weight.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: So I trod lightly.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: But like you say, there was the youthful confidence of, you know, I think I've got this.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Whereas actually, I was just completely winging it.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And I look back now and just think, gosh,
20:05
SPEAKER_00: you know, again, possibly more by good luck with good management, we got through it.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: But we were a small business.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Very small operation then.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were, Nick and I were working in an office within Lois' house.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: It was just the two of us in the office.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: We had a vineyard manager and we had an assistant winemaker and then we had seasonal staff.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's a far cry from where kind of Ripon is now.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: And so it was, it was a very simple time.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it was,
20:36
SPEAKER_00: there was definitely Wait,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: and not just,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:39
SPEAKER_00: taking over from my mother-in-law,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: but again, understanding that this is a family business.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm working, living and working alongside my fiancé, then husband.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we were working all the hours God gave us to kind of get things going.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: But also understanding there were other family members,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: some of whom I knew,
20:56
SPEAKER_00: some of whom I didn't,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: and just really wanting to do right by them as much by ripping the farm.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: How detailed or specific was the briefing then around expectation management?
21:10
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: you're joining the business,
21:12
SPEAKER_01: this is what we're hoping,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: expecting you to do,
21:15
SPEAKER_01: achieve,
21:16
SPEAKER_01: and also for you in terms of how,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: was there any alignment or was this,
21:20
SPEAKER_01: oh, okay, I've got this job now and crack into it.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, there was...
21:25
SPEAKER_00: There was no job description because other than the production side, I was that.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: We did have someone who looked after the seller door on a part-time basis,
21:34
SPEAKER_00: but I was payroll, I was accounts, I was bookkeeping, I was sales and exports.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: I did it all.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: So it was really just trying to work out what needed to be done, when,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: and how I could kind of slot it in in the day because,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: yeah, that's just what you did.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: And what's one of the things that you had to learn and had to learn fast
21:59
SPEAKER_01: that you perhaps didn't know beforehand before you started that role in terms of
22:05
SPEAKER_01: the responsibilities or just how you're going to actually make this work as a couple
22:10
SPEAKER_01: or for you individually?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think at a very practical level, cash flow and certainly understanding
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Markets,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: wine markets,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: you know, I did,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: while I'd come,
22:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:24
SPEAKER_00: cut my teeth in the wine industry in the UK,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: it was A for a very short period,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't at the coalface of we produced this, now we need to sell it.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: It was the other end.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And understanding how,
22:38
SPEAKER_00: say at the cellar door,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: you can command your greatest, you know, your highest price point.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: But, and certainly back in those days,
22:45
SPEAKER_00: you sometimes only sold one bottle a day versus selling At exports,
22:51
SPEAKER_00: where you're selling at your lowest price point,
22:53
SPEAKER_00: you have to wait several months for payment,
22:56
SPEAKER_00: but you sell a pallet of wine at the time.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: So there was no model for that.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we had Lois and Nick had established existing markets.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: We needed to grow,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: but it was also just managing that cash flow and understanding
23:11
SPEAKER_00: that you can't always control who's going to be ordering when.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: Certainly as we went forward a couple more years,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: 2008 in the GFC,
23:21
SPEAKER_00: that became all the more critical and just trying to navigate that as best
23:25
SPEAKER_00: as we could while understanding something that was beyond our control.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And did you try and have a mix then in terms of, okay,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: you've got,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: you know, local,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: sell a door, export,
23:35
SPEAKER_01: wholesale,
23:36
SPEAKER_01: kind of do everything,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: or is there a sweet spot or a recipe for the industry where you go, hey,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: you want to be able to get,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: ideally you've got at least 60% of your sales are going sell a door because that's
23:47
SPEAKER_01: where your margins are the greatest, or what's, is there a recipe like that?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: There isn't, no,
23:52
SPEAKER_00: everyone has their own,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Their own recipe, depending on their model, depending on their size.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you look at something like Felton Road,
23:59
SPEAKER_00: who's done extraordinarily well in really building up a private client base,
24:03
SPEAKER_00: which is fantastic.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: We've always had a pretty broad mix, and I'd say that served us very well.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Certainly things like when it came to COVID,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: you know, we didn't have all our eggs in one basket.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: There are tales of some wineries and probably other industries where they were
24:20
SPEAKER_00: so reliant upon one particular market or Market share
24:24
SPEAKER_00: that things got particularly hard.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was still hard, but we had backstopped.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: So it was in this constant adjustment.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I learned,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: of course,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: is that there are some wines where you're actually wanting to sell them entirely,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: say, at the cellar door, whereas there are other ones that you might export.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: So even within your overall picture,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: it's like you've then got to consider each wine almost separately as well.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: So it was...
24:47
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot but it was fun you know and just kind of trying to work that out and
24:51
SPEAKER_00: then tweaking things and I loved that.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: The fun parts for sure but I also imagine there were a lot of parts that weren't
24:58
SPEAKER_01: a lot of fun and in terms of looking at your typical day I imagine there are days
25:02
SPEAKER_01: that You say,
25:04
SPEAKER_01: okay, this is a normal day or relatively low key, lots of admin kind of thing.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: I imagine they would be pretty much in the minority.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: A lot of days where it's all hands to the pump and this is the seasonal busy time
25:15
SPEAKER_01: or busy period and it's mad.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: But then you've also got things like global financial crisis,
25:22
SPEAKER_01: frosts, other bits and pieces to deal with.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: What were the down points for you in terms of trying to work through that role
25:32
SPEAKER_01: and being confronted with those new things?
25:37
SPEAKER_01: There's no template for this is what we did last year or this is what you do
25:41
SPEAKER_01: in this situation, this is new.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: There were those moments,
25:46
SPEAKER_00: but quite genuinely having Nick in those moments working so closely and so well
25:53
SPEAKER_00: with Nick was brilliant because I had someone to whom I could turn and to
25:58
SPEAKER_00: whom he could turn and say, how are we going to work this out?
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Obviously things like the GFC when suddenly export markets in particular became very hard.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: The years when we did get frosted,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:12
SPEAKER_00: they were all Challenging,
26:14
SPEAKER_00: and there'd be moments where you'd be like, oh my god, what are we going to do?
26:16
SPEAKER_00: But generally,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: whoever was having that panic,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: the other one would be like, hang on, let's just take a deep breath.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: And if we couldn't see the woods for the trees,
26:24
SPEAKER_00: there were other people within the industry,
26:26
SPEAKER_00: you know, friends and colleagues to whom we could turn.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And again,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: that's what's so incredible about the Central Asago wine industry is that kind
26:33
SPEAKER_00: of support in those moments of like, shit,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: knowing that there's someone Who's either going through it or who's gone through it
26:41
SPEAKER_00: or who at least can look at it with kind of a bit more kind of,
26:44
SPEAKER_00: I guess, subjectivity.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And has that always been the case down here in terms of the way that
26:47
SPEAKER_01: the various vintners have operated together?
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, vintners, wine growers.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, and people are always really struck by that.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: And I would say that is one of the core strengths of Central Otago.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I mean,
27:00
SPEAKER_00: unapologetically biased,
27:02
SPEAKER_00: but when When Rolf and Lois,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: when Annie Pinckney,
27:07
SPEAKER_00: the Grants and Alexandria,
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Alan Brady,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: when they first started growing grapes down here,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, no one thought it was going to work.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Only Annie Pinckney, who had a vineyard kind of in between Arrowtown and Queenstown.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: She was the only one with any kind of formal viticultural training.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: So everyone helped each other.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Everyone shared their knowledge.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: You know,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: the first wines were Central Otago wines rather than,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: say, Gibson Valley, Ripon, whatever else.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: And They crushed the grapes together, made the wines together.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: So that early spirit,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: by necessity, of kind of camaraderie and support and collaboration has lasted.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Because what's really lovely is a lot of those early winemakers,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: and I say winemakers because they were trained as such,
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Rob Hay at Chard Farm,
27:54
SPEAKER_00: Grant Taylor,
27:56
SPEAKER_00: who now has Valli,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: They came in to work for those early companies and they then went on
28:01
SPEAKER_00: to form their own wineries within the region.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: So they kind of carried that spirit with them.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And even though we've got big multinationals,
28:10
SPEAKER_00: we've got LVMH with Cloudy Bay,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: we've got Rothschilds,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: even though we've got those big companies,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: it That collaboration and that kind of support really does still remain
28:22
SPEAKER_00: and it's
28:22
SPEAKER_01: wonderful.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: I wondered that because I know there's a lot of diversification over
28:27
SPEAKER_01: the last 5-10 years and a lot of new owners,
28:31
SPEAKER_01: foreign investors and things like that that maybe have a different way
28:33
SPEAKER_01: of doing business or different Morals or ethics when it comes
28:37
SPEAKER_01: to particularly competition.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: So that hasn't changed.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: That's still there.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean,
28:42
SPEAKER_00: I think there's always an element of obviously if there's only going
28:44
SPEAKER_00: to be one central Otago wine on a wine list, you want it to be your own.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: But someone else's success is success for the region.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
28:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:54
SPEAKER_00: I might now have the statistics wrong,
28:55
SPEAKER_00: but roughly,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: I believe it's something like 7% of New Zealand's production is from central Otago
29:01
SPEAKER_00: and New Zealand forms roughly about the same 7% of the world's wine production.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: So in the grand scheme of things,
29:10
SPEAKER_00: we are tiny and yet our reputation punches well above our weight.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And that really does come from,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: I think,
29:17
SPEAKER_00: that kind of celebration of one another rather than kind of glancing
29:23
SPEAKER_00: over your shoulder,
29:23
SPEAKER_00: kind of,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: they're the ones who got the The gold or the 80,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: 90 points, whatever it is, you know.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: I imagine then Ripon would have been a business
29:34
SPEAKER_01: that would have been extremely hard hit by COVID and particularly around
29:38
SPEAKER_01: the uncertainty and what's coming.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: What was that first year like for you guys of COVID when that was 2020?
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, the very first thing,
29:47
SPEAKER_00: of course, was, are we actually going to be able to pick the grapes?
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Because we went into lockdown, what, March 26, something like that, central Otago.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: Is the last region in New Zealand to pick.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: And we were considered to be an essential industry.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of kickback because of that from other industry.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, why should they be allowed to pick?
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And that's understandable.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: And we had to do a lot of paperwork,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: to submit to kind of,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: you know, show that we were going to kind of play by the rules.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me, was it based on export value in terms of that?
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Why you were an essential export earnings?
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: And so we were extremely nervous because there were all eyes on the wine industry.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And at that point, you know, it was such early days.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think we forget now quite how little we knew and how carefully,
30:40
SPEAKER_00: understandably, everyone was playing, you know, taking things.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: So for us,
30:46
SPEAKER_00: we were just keeping our fingers crossed that everyone up in Marlborough,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: everyone up in North Canterbury,
30:51
SPEAKER_00: kind of as you work your way south through the harvest, was playing by the book.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Because we could not risk not picking our grapes.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: But it was actually quite a late harvest anyway.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And so that kind of lockdown period,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: we had a good two weeks to put plans together to work out how we were going to run
31:11
SPEAKER_00: the harvest.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: We basically had parallel teams.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Nick ran one, his assistant winemaker ran the other, which is not how we generally operate.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: But you know, we got through.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: So that was the kind of, I guess, practical side of it.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: But then it was like, well, what does this mean?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: You know,
31:28
SPEAKER_00: obviously we had events booked and,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: that were having to be cancelled and then rebooked and then rebooked again
31:37
SPEAKER_00: and rebooked again.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: And that was extremely hard and extremely stressful for our events manager
31:42
SPEAKER_00: who handled it with...
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Kind of a grace and a calm, I can't even begin to imagine.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: But then going back to your earlier question,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: in terms of wine sales,
31:52
SPEAKER_00: we were very fortunate because a lot of our overseas markets,
31:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:55
SPEAKER_00: our UK distributor,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: for example,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: has a retail arm as well as selling to restaurants,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: as well as selling to corporates.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: So while the restaurant arm of their sales kind of fell off,
32:09
SPEAKER_00: they saw a huge boost So actually overseas,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: and we saw that in other markets as well,
32:15
SPEAKER_00: overseas people were buying wine to drink at home
32:18
SPEAKER_00: because they didn't have anything else to do.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Probably a bit more than they had been recently.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it was, I mean, it was really hard.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
32:26
SPEAKER_00: I would spend days like sending newsletters and,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: while not wanting to sound desperate,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: nor indeed discount our wines too heavily,
32:34
SPEAKER_00: because if you go down the discount route, you know, how do you claw your way back?
32:38
SPEAKER_00: But just trying to find out.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Any avenue possible.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, going back through emails,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: going back four or five years to anyone who'd ever expressed interest in our wines
32:49
SPEAKER_00: to just sell.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: And it worked.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: We got through in the first instance.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, those years were very, very tough.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: And of course, the cellar door closed.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
33:02
SPEAKER_00: when it reopened,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: we were very limited to how many people we could host and things like that.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So it was a period of
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Adjustment and then readjustment and then readjustment again.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: But we did make it through, but it was hard.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And was that when you first started thinking about stepping back
33:22
SPEAKER_01: or had you already thought about that and already started that process pre-COVID?
33:28
SPEAKER_00: It kind of occasionally cropped up from time to time.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Partly...
33:33
SPEAKER_00: I think,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: just thinking that perhaps Nick and I needed to kind of create a greater separation
33:39
SPEAKER_00: between our home and work lives.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think also just thinking that perhaps, I mean,
33:46
SPEAKER_00: this is God,
33:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound like kind of Pollyanna-ish,
33:48
SPEAKER_00: but that, you know, I've been there.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, by the time I left Ripon in 2021,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I've been there, you know, the greatest part of 16 years.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, well, probably time for someone new to come in, you know, for some fresh blood.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously in other roles we heard...
34:03
SPEAKER_00: Kind of people coming in quite, you know, quite routinely.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: But the market was changing,
34:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: the lands,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: the central Etrago landscape,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: as you've mentioned, you know, these bigger wineries were coming in.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: It was like, well, you know, it's perhaps time for someone else to come in.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: But as I say, it wasn't entirely selfless because I was ready to think about something else.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: And certainly I think in that kind of COVID era,
34:27
SPEAKER_00: like so many, I was like, right, well, what next?
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And so you resigned,
34:34
SPEAKER_01: registered The Right Path, the name of your new venture, and then second lockdown.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Sort of like within a day or something.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I left Rifford on the Friday.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: On the Monday,
34:48
SPEAKER_00: I kind of tidied up the office,
34:51
SPEAKER_00: registered The Right Path,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: came up with the name The Right Path, registered The Right Path.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And by the end of that day, I think, yeah, the Wednesday lockdown was announced.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: So it was like, oh, right, OK.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: So that would have been an interesting week I'm assuming in your household in terms
35:05
SPEAKER_01: of hearing that news and then dealing with that and then what does that mean and
35:11
SPEAKER_01: so you can still relate and talk about what's going on at the vineyard
35:14
SPEAKER_01: but it's still also then slightly different now right for you guys in terms
35:18
SPEAKER_01: of discussing that topic and was that something
35:21
SPEAKER_01: that okay I'm no longer working there but we can still talk about this at home
35:24
SPEAKER_01: or how do you navigate that then?
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'd had quite a long notice period.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: In the end,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: from the moment I decided to leave to the moment I actually kind of walked out
35:34
SPEAKER_00: the door, it was five months.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So there'd been kind of quite a lot of handover.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: But even so, yeah, I was always going to be available for any questions.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: Again, after you've been there for almost 16 years,
35:46
SPEAKER_00: there's always going to be those random, how do you do this question?
35:49
SPEAKER_00: So I was still pretty available.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: And I was also at that point still a director of Ripon's.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: So...
35:56
SPEAKER_00: You know,
35:56
SPEAKER_00: having to kind of look at things very much from a governance level and what
36:00
SPEAKER_00: the implications of another lockdown could mean.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it was,
36:05
SPEAKER_00: I think for me at least,
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I was definitely still a sounding board and yes,
36:10
SPEAKER_00: still answering emails and phone calls from team members.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: But I think knowing that actually I was no longer on the rip and payroll
36:17
SPEAKER_00: and everything else,
36:18
SPEAKER_00: it was like, yep, okay,
36:19
SPEAKER_00: I can just breathe a bit,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: be a bit more present for the boys and,
36:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, and hopefully be more of a support for Nick.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: And how was it then finding those first few clients
36:28
SPEAKER_01: then starting out being self-employed suddenly?
36:32
SPEAKER_01: How was that in terms of getting out there acquiring clients?
36:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, actually,
36:37
SPEAKER_00: to be honest,
36:39
SPEAKER_00: the way it rather went is I had,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: having said I wasn't on Ripon's payroll anymore,
36:43
SPEAKER_00: I'd over the years stacked up a lot of holiday pay.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: So that gave me a little bit of a buffer while I kind
36:49
SPEAKER_00: of worked out what was What was happening and
36:52
SPEAKER_00: in those first months it was very much word of mouth just me trying
36:57
SPEAKER_00: to work out what I was actually offering because again it was
37:00
SPEAKER_00: a bit like all these things in my life I kind of have this great idea and
37:02
SPEAKER_00: then don't really think it through so it was just doing kind of little bits
37:07
SPEAKER_00: of writing for for kind of some local businesses and beginning to think about
37:15
SPEAKER_00: whether I needed to apply for a part-time job as well or whether I should apply for
37:19
SPEAKER_00: a full-time job and You know,
37:21
SPEAKER_00: have the right path as kind of some background noise if it was going
37:25
SPEAKER_00: to become something in the future.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really quite know yet what that was going to look like.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: I did apply for a job which,
37:32
SPEAKER_00: well, obviously I didn't get, with an amazing organisation called Garden to Table.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think if I had got that,
37:39
SPEAKER_00: then perhaps the right path wouldn't have really kind of come to fruition.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: But all things to the best because kind of with events that happened in our family
37:46
SPEAKER_00: the following year, it was just as well that I hadn't got too much in place.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: This is then Toby's mountain biking accident, I'm assuming.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure days like that are burnt into any mother's memory and that you never forget it.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: What happened that day?
38:04
SPEAKER_01: What was going on?
38:05
SPEAKER_01: Where were you?
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally burnt in memory.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: It was 2022 and we had that Indian summer.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: It just went on and on and it was a beautiful day.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: And actually, I had,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: hilarious,
38:21
SPEAKER_00: I had applied for a job and got a phone call that day saying,
38:24
SPEAKER_00: would you be interested in coming for interview?
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And then the next phone call I was in ICU.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it was just kind of another day really, pottering around.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: And then towards the end of the day, kind of about 3.30, got a phone call.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: From a number I didn't recognise,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: and I would always recommend everyone,
38:45
SPEAKER_00: we all ignore phone numbers if we don't recognise them.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Whenever anyone I see does that, I'm like, just answer it, you don't know who it might be.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm glad I did answer it,
38:54
SPEAKER_00: because it was a man who had found Toby unable to move at Lismore Park,
39:01
SPEAKER_00: and telling me an ambulance was on the way.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was 17th March 2022.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: So what was your move then to Lismore Park to meet at the hospital
39:13
SPEAKER_01: where Burwood were, helicopter, what was happening?
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Straight to Lismore,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: leaving my other child, Ford,
39:22
SPEAKER_00: my other son at home,
39:23
SPEAKER_00: kind of not really knowing what was going on,
39:25
SPEAKER_00: kind of calling Nick going, hi, can you talk?
39:27
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'm on the top of a tank.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, so Toby's hidden X and he's like, okay, I'm on my way.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: So kind of panic calls,
39:33
SPEAKER_00: but went to Lismore where St John's were arriving
39:36
SPEAKER_00: and they were unbelievable knowing exactly what to do.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Because it was a spinal,
39:44
SPEAKER_00: clearly some kind of spinal injury,
39:46
SPEAKER_00: the helicopter went to Christchurch,
39:48
SPEAKER_00: which is standard practice, doesn't always happen, fortunately it did.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: I was in the helicopter with Nick Ford and So I was in the helicopter with Toby.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Nick and Ford drove up to Christchurch with a friend.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
40:04
SPEAKER_00: then once we got to Christchurch,
40:07
SPEAKER_00: it's slightly a blur in as much as it's just all people around Toby.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: he was put into surgery that night,
40:15
SPEAKER_00: 11 days in ICU,
40:16
SPEAKER_00: and then transferred to Burwood Spinal Unit for the next six odd months.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Which involved then you guys,
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Ronald McDonald Housing,
40:28
SPEAKER_01: staying with friends,
40:29
SPEAKER_01: tag teaming, you're up there, then you're back down here, Nick's up there.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: How did you manage then that period?
40:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Ronald McDonald House and then Burwood has what you call them, units, family units.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: And although they were still in COVID lockdowns,
40:46
SPEAKER_00: they actually opened one up for us because Toby was only 13 at the time.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: They don't normally take children that young.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: So they're like, yeah, you need to have a parent nearby.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
41:00
SPEAKER_00: looking back,
41:02
SPEAKER_00: it was kind of really easy because there was this,
41:05
SPEAKER_00: like I've said this before, kind of a clarity of purpose.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: It was like when I was in Christchurch, the focus was Toby.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: When I was down here, the focus was Ford and the same for Nick.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was harder for Nick because Nick was also...
41:17
SPEAKER_00: Having to try and deal with harvest from afar.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
41:20
SPEAKER_00: absolute testament to the team that we had at Ripon that they could kind
41:24
SPEAKER_00: of run harvest with Nick more absent than not.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: But it was, yeah, it was tough.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Nick and I were shipped in the night for half a year.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, you just, it was, you knew where you needed to be.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: And I knew what my role was.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: So then going back to the whole thing about the right path,
41:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:44
SPEAKER_00: thank goodness,
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Actually that it hadn't really taken off and thank goodness that I had left ripping
41:49
SPEAKER_00: when I did because working just wasn't really going to be in the equation for me.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: And what about planning then at that sort of point?
41:56
SPEAKER_01: How concrete are the prognoses around, okay,
42:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:01
SPEAKER_01: he's going to be in here for this period of time and then go here
42:04
SPEAKER_01: and this is what it's going to look like?
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Or was this kind of, hey, this is kind of open-ended for quite a long time.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: How did you guys manage that then in terms of that uncertainty before things got,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: okay,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: it's another six weeks and then this is going to happen or here are the milestones?
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think we knew from the outset it was going to be a few months.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: then kind of the longer they wanted to keep him almost the better because it showed
42:30
SPEAKER_00: that they felt there was more that could be done there in terms of rehabilitation
42:34
SPEAKER_00: with the physio team, with the OTs, whatever.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: You know,
42:37
SPEAKER_00: had it been like,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: yep, you know, you're going to be here two months and then you're on your way.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: That was clearly their feeling that they had done what they could and now it's time
42:44
SPEAKER_00: to get back to your world.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: But really,
42:48
SPEAKER_00: in terms of planning or whatever else,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: you just honestly just took every day as it came.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: And in terms of progress,
42:55
SPEAKER_00: it was like, okay,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: if this is all the progress that's ever going to be made today,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: then that's what we work with.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: And Toby did continue to progress, but at every step.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: You didn't overly project because there is no kind of crystal ball gazing.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: How did he handle that then at that time and was that something that he,
43:20
SPEAKER_01: was he frustrated with himself that he felt he was,
43:23
SPEAKER_01: he got unlucky or he did something stupid or this is a trick that he's done heaps
43:27
SPEAKER_01: of times before or how did he then deal with the injury and the aftermath of that?
43:35
SPEAKER_00: The most astonishing kind of poise and grace that I've ever seen.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: It was, you know, I can't speak for Toby, but, you know, I never saw any moments of self-pity.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, you will often say that Burwood was, you know, he had a great time.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, he was a 13-year-old.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: He didn't have to go to school.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: He was, you know, almost like the mascot of the unit.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: And the wonderful thing about, you know, about Burwood's spinal unit is it is...
44:03
SPEAKER_00: A rehabilitation centre,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: so it's not like ICU where people are coming in and out and you never see who's in
44:10
SPEAKER_00: the room next to you.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: You know,
44:11
SPEAKER_00: you do actually get to know those people around and get to know the nurses
44:15
SPEAKER_00: and everyone's, again,
44:16
SPEAKER_00: kind of celebrating each other's gains,
44:19
SPEAKER_00: whatever that might look like, given the injury.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: So he just got on with it.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah,
44:26
SPEAKER_00: there were days when obviously you could tell he just wasn't into going to the gym,
44:30
SPEAKER_00: going to rehab, whatever.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
44:32
SPEAKER_00: he understood that Those months there were in a way a gift with
44:39
SPEAKER_00: the best spinal physiotherapist or whatever else.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: And he knuckled down.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's always had a competitive spirit.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: He's just like his father.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And so I think in that respect, it was like, yeah, you can't do this.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: What did you learn about the local community during that period?
45:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can't talk highly enough about the local community in that period.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the things that astonished me was,
45:09
SPEAKER_00: you know, how quickly the bush telegraph kicked in.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, by the time we were in Christchurch, people knew what was going on.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: But we, I mean, there was never anything ghoulish about it.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: Everyone just wanted to help.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: And that might have been cooking meals for Ford.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: Toby's godmother,
45:30
SPEAKER_00: who's a great friend of ours,
45:32
SPEAKER_00: basically was astonishing and moved into our house and lived with Ford.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: That time when Nick and I were up in ICU with Toby and people would drop off baking
45:45
SPEAKER_00: for Ford's lunchbox or cook suppers or offer to do the ferrying around.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: People stacked our wood, made us a new wood box, picked our quinces.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: We were sent care packages in Christchurch from people we'd never met.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: And there were kindnesses that just kind of came out of the blue.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Local boys,
46:11
SPEAKER_00: a couple of years older,
46:12
SPEAKER_00: a few years older than Toby,
46:13
SPEAKER_00: who were competitive cyclists,
46:17
SPEAKER_00: road cyclists, won a race and sent up the shirt that they got to Toby.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: It's really small things, but people are thinking of us, and it was astonishing.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: Is there advice you'd give then to others perhaps in a future situation
46:37
SPEAKER_01: where something happens to somebody they know within the community because that's
46:40
SPEAKER_01: the thing it's often quite difficult you want to do something you want
46:43
SPEAKER_01: to help you don't really know don't know what to say don't know what to do maybe
46:46
SPEAKER_01: a lot of people struggle with that what having lived through
46:49
SPEAKER_01: that what advice would you give people then?
46:51
SPEAKER_00: Good question I kind of don't know in a way because I was on the receiving end of it
46:57
SPEAKER_00: and I know a lot of people did find
47:01
SPEAKER_00: Getting in touch,
47:02
SPEAKER_00: hard or knowing how to,
47:03
SPEAKER_00: I think is, don't,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: and I can't speak for other people in other situations,
47:09
SPEAKER_00: but even just a message and not expecting a reply,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, just that, so sorry, or whatever else.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think, and maybe this is just me, But not skirting around the issue.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: You know,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: you could sometimes see that people did feel a bit awkward
47:26
SPEAKER_00: or I'd often get what I used to call the Princess Diana eyes,
47:29
SPEAKER_00: which is the looking out from under the eyelashes going, hi.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Let's just face this head on.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: This has happened and don't shy away from it.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: That's me.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: Other people might,
47:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: in another situation and perhaps we're not being guided by how Toby
47:47
SPEAKER_00: and Ford were handling it.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: It might have been I wanted to shy away and be like, I don't want to talk to anyone.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's a bit of a tricky one to answer.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: And on the first day Toby goes back to school, you start your first paid contract.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: You didn't feel the need to take a little break, maybe?
48:02
SPEAKER_00: I was ready.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: I needed to.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: And so that was working with the Wanaka Festival of Colour.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: It was a whole new team.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: They knew my circumstances.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: They were incredibly supportive.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: It was a contract,
48:17
SPEAKER_00: and as much as I had a task to deliver,
48:20
SPEAKER_00: I had to deliver the publicity for the Festival of Colour.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: So there was flexibility in terms of my hours, my days, whatever else.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was ready.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: I was ready to use my brain to do something other than dealing with ACC
48:35
SPEAKER_00: or whatever else, and it was fabulous.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Your tagline is effective communication the human way.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: So we're obviously in a pretty AI disrupted phase right now.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming this is not a coincidence that there's the mention of humans.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: And in your strapline, what role is that doing for you?
48:59
SPEAKER_01: What are you trying to do?
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's funny you
49:01
SPEAKER_00: mention that,
49:01
SPEAKER_00: actually,
49:01
SPEAKER_00: because that's been the kind of strapline from the get-go,
49:05
SPEAKER_00: and that was before kind of OpenAI kind of hit us with ChatGPT,
49:09
SPEAKER_00: and we were all like, what is this?
49:10
SPEAKER_00: So maybe I was ahead of my time on that.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: But I think, yeah, AI is obviously my biggest competitor.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I've been shown that there are opportunities there as well.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: So...
49:24
SPEAKER_00: We can't run away from AI, you know, and it's how do we work alongside it?
49:30
SPEAKER_00: And certainly as a writer,
49:32
SPEAKER_00: how do I position myself as an attractive alternative or complement to AI?
49:41
SPEAKER_00: And so hopefully by,
49:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:43
SPEAKER_00: really having a distinctive voice and being kind of willing to work with others
49:48
SPEAKER_00: with theirs, you know, that's going to help me.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: And speaking of humans,
49:52
SPEAKER_01: you also made the admirable decision to work with a human designer
49:56
SPEAKER_01: when designing your visual identity.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: What did that process teach you about your own business and also about the value of design?
50:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was brilliant actually.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: I was working with a woman called Jackie Taylor who's got
50:12
SPEAKER_00: a business called Reservoir Design and she sends a little questionnaire
50:16
SPEAKER_00: about basically who are you and what is your business.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Kind of,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: as I said,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:22
SPEAKER_00: I created the name,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: The Right Path,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: the day I left Ripon and it was like,
50:26
SPEAKER_00: yep, this sounds good, I'm going to register it.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: And then I hadn't given any thought to anything else in those first jobs where,
50:32
SPEAKER_00: as I said, kind of word of mouth, it was just invoices with no logo, whatever else.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: So this was a really good moment of just like, yeah, who am I?
50:41
SPEAKER_00: What am I?
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And just working through that process was...
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Invaluable, because I don't think we pose those questions of ourselves.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes you do need someone else to put that to you.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: And having that moment of kind of professional introspection was absolutely invaluable.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: You call yourself, I think, a parrot for picking up a brand's voice.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: Without mentioning any names,
51:04
SPEAKER_01: has there been a brand or a sector that you've gone,
51:07
SPEAKER_01: well, this is a real stretch in terms of to get that tonality right?
51:14
SPEAKER_00: No.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, sometimes it's been a bit of a challenge, but I enjoy that.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
51:20
SPEAKER_00: there might be a couple of kind of full starts sitting at the desk going,
51:24
SPEAKER_00: how am I going to do this?
51:25
SPEAKER_00: But so far, no.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: But to date,
51:30
SPEAKER_00: I've been very fortunate,
51:31
SPEAKER_00: certainly kind of,
51:32
SPEAKER_00: I'd say with local businesses,
51:34
SPEAKER_00: you know, the people who kind of seem interested in what I offer are...
51:39
SPEAKER_00: You know,
51:39
SPEAKER_00: businesses,
51:40
SPEAKER_00: organizations, industry with whom I kind of feel some kind of natural affinity.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: And certainly if they're the Wanaka-based ones, we've got that kind of...
51:51
SPEAKER_00: Shared value of actually being here.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: And that often I think with businesses here lies at the heart of their identity.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: So not yet.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: There are some jobs,
52:04
SPEAKER_00: there is some work that I do that is challenging in other ways,
52:08
SPEAKER_00: but in terms of finding that voice, not yet.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: And what's your process for moving between different projects?
52:16
SPEAKER_01: Do you need a buffer between each?
52:18
SPEAKER_01: So for example,
52:19
SPEAKER_01: because they are different voices and also quite,
52:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:22
SPEAKER_01: so whether it's a festival press release or an EU tender or something else for
52:27
SPEAKER_01: a local business for some copy for social media or a website,
52:32
SPEAKER_01: do you have a set process or can you just basically go,
52:34
SPEAKER_01: that's done and then immediately roll on to the next thing?
52:37
SPEAKER_01: How do you work?
52:38
SPEAKER_00: I generally just jump,
52:40
SPEAKER_00: and I really like that, because again, it's like, right, switch the brain.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: I think,
52:45
SPEAKER_00: going back to university,
52:47
SPEAKER_00: I had to churn out,
52:48
SPEAKER_00: I was talking to my tutor about this relatively recently,
52:50
SPEAKER_00: which is why it's in my brain,
52:51
SPEAKER_00: I had to churn out two, three, four thousand word essays a week.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: So you'd be doing,
52:57
SPEAKER_00: one minute you'd be doing John Milton,
52:59
SPEAKER_00: The next minute,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: boom, do that, switch to Shakespeare, switch to Virginia Woolf, whoever it is.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: The reason I kind of go back to universities,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: I think that has been the most invaluable training for me in many ways,
53:11
SPEAKER_00: of you do something,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: you move to the next thing,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: and then you might have to go back to, you know, the first thing, and that's fine.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: But just, again, I love that.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: I love the way I have to switch my brain into another mode, from,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: as you say, it might be something like an EU tender, to a festival brief, to...
53:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, a real estate copy, whatever it is.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: Can you listen to music while you're writing, while you're working?
53:34
SPEAKER_01: Does music have a role for you?
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you say,
53:38
SPEAKER_01: hey, no, this is music comes later, or so long as there's no lyrics?
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Music comes later, actually.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: Music's a huge part of My world, my life.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: But to use the terminology that my children use, you know, when I'm in there, I just lock in.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's just very much about sitting down, no noise and into it.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: Where do you go to do your thinking these days?
54:10
SPEAKER_00: Mount Iron, a lot of the time.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: I walk.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: I find it both incredibly therapeutic and meditative but also inspirational for me
54:25
SPEAKER_00: in terms of creating those moments of inspiration.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: So actually sometimes if I am in a bit of a rut whether it's what am I going
54:34
SPEAKER_00: to do next,
54:35
SPEAKER_00: how am I going to you know stay afloat professionally or How am I going
54:39
SPEAKER_00: to approach this particular task,
54:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:41
SPEAKER_00: rather than plugging into a podcast, which,
54:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:44
SPEAKER_00: is my other modus operandi on mantai and it's,
54:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:47
SPEAKER_00: I will just go for a walk and just not even really focus on it and
54:51
SPEAKER_00: then just let those thoughts come.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: And so moving then, that's important for you to be moving at the same time.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: You're not a sit and look at the view and think person or sit and look out the window and think.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like you're doing things, you're moving.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, moving.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: What's the piece of work that you're proudest of from the last four years?
55:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a very personal piece that I wrote.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: It's about wine.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: I was given a really open-ended brief, which was a lot of fun.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: There's a podcast called The Not So Serious Wine Chats.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: And actually this speaks to what we've just talked about, the kind of movement.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: I was asked to write a piece about anything really to do with wine.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: And that was fun to do in itself because obviously I'm not Entrenched in the day
55:40
SPEAKER_00: to day of wine anymore.
55:43
SPEAKER_00: And I did,
55:43
SPEAKER_00: I just took myself off for a walk,
55:45
SPEAKER_00: went up to Diamond Lake and didn't really think too much about anything.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: And I was walking down and I was like, yeah, right.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: And then I just had the idea.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: So, and by the time I got home, it was almost fully formed.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was really just a piece about what wine means to me.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: And, um,
56:05
SPEAKER_00: and the place it plays in my life and it was about those moments when you're
56:09
SPEAKER_00: with friends and you're listening to I think I probably said Neil Young
56:13
SPEAKER_00: and it's just you know you're not necessarily drinking the best wine you've ever had
56:17
SPEAKER_00: but it's all about the context and the people you're with and it was
56:20
SPEAKER_00: a very personal piece and I was pretty nervous sending it out into the world for
56:27
SPEAKER_00: that reason but it Seemed to have landed and people said nice things.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: It's funny,
56:34
SPEAKER_00: I spend my life writing for other people and I think obviously
56:38
SPEAKER_00: the bits I'm most uncomfortable about,
56:41
SPEAKER_00: the bits I'm most nervous about are when it's actually me in my own words.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: Is that something you think is an itch that's there needing to be scratched,
56:54
SPEAKER_01: that will get itchier with time,
56:57
SPEAKER_01: or it's just there, you're aware of it, whatever, you might do something with it?
57:02
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm aware of it.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't really feel any need to explore it further.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: I've got a friend who kind of asked me once what my novel is, and I said, what do you mean?
57:12
SPEAKER_00: He said, oh, everyone's got a novel in them.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, actually, I don't think I do.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean,
57:18
SPEAKER_00: occasionally I think it'd be quite fun to, I mean, God,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: I feel kind of presumptuous even putting my,
57:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:24
SPEAKER_00: talking about this with her name,
57:25
SPEAKER_00: but like Nora Ephron or someone who wrote wonderful essays and little vignettes,
57:29
SPEAKER_00: you know, I'd love to perhaps write little things like that.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: So just kind of snippets or ideas or observations.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
57:38
SPEAKER_00: for now,
57:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm just happy to To help other people find their voice really,
57:42
SPEAKER_00: which again, it's not selfless.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's my job, but I think it's also kind of perhaps a defense mechanism.
57:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm not writing myself.
57:50
SPEAKER_01: Has your relationship to land changed since moving here and marrying into
57:57
SPEAKER_01: the Mills family and Ripon?
57:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think you talked about how it's hard to know where sort of Nick's body ends
58:05
SPEAKER_01: or his feet ends.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: In the soil of rip on begin kind of thing.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: Seeing your kids growing up in that environment,
58:11
SPEAKER_01: having for them,
58:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:12
SPEAKER_01: every day,
58:13
SPEAKER_01: you've come into it obviously as an outsider quasi,
58:16
SPEAKER_01: you know, partly formed rather than them growing up into it.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: How has that experience then changed your relationship to land as an English woman?
58:26
SPEAKER_00: Hugely.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: I never really had any concept of it before I came here and
58:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, absolutely.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Nick is, you know, inextricably linked to Ripon and Ripon to Nick.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's one of the things that he and his family espouses this idea
58:49
SPEAKER_00: of guardianship, that we are not owners of a piece of land.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I'm,
58:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm from London,
58:55
SPEAKER_00: we owned a house,
58:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:56
SPEAKER_00: next door,
58:57
SPEAKER_00: someone else owned a house,
58:58
SPEAKER_00: but actually,
58:59
SPEAKER_00: you know, Just,
59:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:02
SPEAKER_00: seeing this bit of land that they are just farming to look after and to secure for
59:07
SPEAKER_00: the next generation,
59:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:09
SPEAKER_00: and to realise this idea that Nick has of, you know, realising a land's potential.
59:16
SPEAKER_00: So it being land first rather than people first.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: And that was so striking and obviously,
59:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, informed my work at Ripon for, well, as I say, for almost 16 years.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: But certainly...
59:31
SPEAKER_00: How I look at where we are now.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
59:33
SPEAKER_00: looking at the outlet here,
59:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:34
SPEAKER_00: just this idea of what we're doing should be looking after the land,
59:39
SPEAKER_00: whatever that piece of land means to you,
59:41
SPEAKER_00: whether it is your acre block or whether it's where you walk every day,
59:45
SPEAKER_00: it's this idea that we,
59:47
SPEAKER_00: you know, we need to tread lightly, but also have this idea of being a guardian.
59:53
SPEAKER_01: So family businesses are all encompassing, all consuming.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: A blessing or a curse,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: depending on your view, depending on the business, depending on your personality.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: How do you look at that for your own children?
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: Is this something that you'd say, hey,
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: whatever they want to do,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: they should follow that, or hey, this is such a hard industry.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: As interesting, as exciting, as appealing as it is, I would actually prefer that they
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: I think they're sufficiently strong wills that they'll do what they will.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_00: But I think what growing up in this environment with family members
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: who work together,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: you know, where there are both, you know, tensions and harmony is seeing how
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: How extraordinary.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think even they realize how unique it is to work to this kind
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: of collective purpose with that emotional and generational investment.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: So whether they and their cousins and everything else become part of that,
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: it's always going to be in their DNA.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think that...
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: Nick is a man full of integrity and his values have no doubt been transferred
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: to our sons and I'd like to think that wherever their professional lives go
1:01:23
SPEAKER_00: that they will carry those values with them even if it doesn't end up within
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: a family business.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_01: I know that you're a very keen preserver, conserver of fruit.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: What does cooking give you that work and wine and other things in your life,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: writing can't give you?
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: It's my anchor.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: It's what my father had.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: It's comfort.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: It's security.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: Going back to the Burwood days, we cooked for Toby every single day.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: That's what we could do.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: It nurtured him.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: It nourished him.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: It helped him.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: Helped them heal.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: When, you know, when I was in Wanaka, I was just doing the same with Ford.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_00: It was just, you know, this is, this is what the boys have always known.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: This is what I,
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: this is what I grew up with,
1:02:15
SPEAKER_00: you know, the sounds and the smells of dad in the kitchen.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: And I found that hugely comforting over the years.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: And certainly when I go home, it's so familiar.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: And that's, that's what the boys kind of identify with.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's food as home, food as love.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_00: Food is comfort.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: Food is stress relief.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, cooking, I should say, not necessarily food.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: When food is stress relief, that can be a bit more problematic.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: But certainly, providing food and cooking is, yeah, kind of core, at my core.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_01: Is that every time you cook or is that, okay, no,
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: it's like Monday to Friday,
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: it's about getting shit done and getting stuff out the door and then Saturday
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: and Sunday, it's, hmm, yeah,
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: maybe take a little bit of time and make a special trip to the market
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: and pick something out or...
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, let's, yeah, let's not sugarcate this.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_00: There are certainly days where it's like, what am I going to do?
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: grab a bag of ravioli at the supermarket and,
1:03:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, grate some parmesan and hate for the best.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things we've started doing with the boys is at the start
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: of every week.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: It's like, right, you guys can help me with the menus.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've got a boy who's going off to university next year.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: I want him to kind of become a bit more self-sufficient.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_00: So there's, again,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: that collective thing at the start of each week where all,
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: even if I'm the one who does most of the cooking,
1:03:29
SPEAKER_00: we're all thinking about how we're going to, you know, eat for the week.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: And yes, of course, kind of Monday to Friday, it is perhaps, you know, less...
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: Less time, you know, it's definitely about efficiencies.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: it might be that I find myself with a bit more time and I'll make an apple crumble
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: or whatever else and just, you know, throw something extra in.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: And, I mean, you know, the boys and Nick are incredibly appreciative.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_00: So, I guess that kind of pushes me a bit more of like, oh, what treat can I do for them today?
1:04:01
SPEAKER_01: So Toby's going to university, he's the one.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_01: Has he got a good spag bol in his repertoire yet?
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's all you need, isn't it?
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, do you know, we've had this conversation.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: If you need a mince, exactly, you need a mince recipe, you need a good pasta recipe.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_00: He's got good toasty game.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what else.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: Ford, his younger brother, is amazing when it comes to flavours and instincts.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of less worried about him.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: And he's got a few more years up his sleeve.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't know.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: Toby will probably just live off kebabs and chips.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: How important a role is skiing in your life?
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I know this is an interesting one for,
1:04:38
SPEAKER_01: and particularly in a couple,
1:04:39
SPEAKER_01: when you have a sport that one person does,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_01: in your case,
1:04:43
SPEAKER_01: at Olympic level,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_01: you come to it as more of a rookie, newbie, weekend warrior kind of skill level.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_01: How was that early on?
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: How did you, did you guys navigate that?
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: It was really hard.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, very early on, I just didn't ski and Nick did.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: And then I learned to ski kind of around the time we were engaged in this kind
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: of first day skiing.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: Nick, a friend of ours taught me to ski, actually, and he was brilliant.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: And then Nick took me up the saddle chair and we're standing at the top of
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: the saddle and he's like, oh, shit.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what?
1:05:14
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, I'm looking at TC through the eyes of a beginner.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't know what this means.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: And he literally Piggyback me down a mogul field.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank God I had absolutely no dignity whatsoever.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: My goggles fogged up with tears.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: I think the words were, why the fuck am I married?
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: But things improved from that.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_00: And when the boys were younger, with skiers and family, they soon eclipsed me.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: I am, as you kind of said, I'm very much a fair weather skier.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think early on, I...
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, in those early years, I absolutely wanted to advance.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I've got to the point where I'm uncomfortable that I can't ski the whole of TC.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: I can get around Kadrona.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel it needs to be part of my life now.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's kind of perhaps come with maturity and a bit more confidence.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: Actually, okay, this isn't necessarily kind of what I want to do, but please go ahead and do it.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's never resentment or whatever else.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's such an incredible...
1:06:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, thing to be able to do when we live here, so yeah.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: It is such a massive test on a relationship because it is such a,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: this is your world and I feel so out of my depth in this world
1:06:26
SPEAKER_01: for somebody that's coming into that and seeing your partner that's really good
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: at this thing with all their friends who are also all really good at it.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: It's that initial phase that you've got to get through and then you figure stuff out.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_00: At the beginning it was hugely intimidating and as I say,
1:06:42
SPEAKER_00: my first reaction was just to block it altogether and even then
1:06:45
SPEAKER_00: in those early years.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm like, yeah, I'll go up, I have a potter, but ultimately, you know, I can't ski powder.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_00: And there's been often really beautiful bluebird days when I've far seen her be out walking.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: So you had an upbringing in England and a family and place that was very specific to
1:07:05
SPEAKER_01: that location, that culture.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_01: Your kids have experienced something different.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: What's the thing that you're really bummed that they haven't been able to experience
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: that you had as a kid?
1:07:15
SPEAKER_01: And what's the thing that you didn't have as a kid that you think,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: they are so fortunate having had this or having this experience that I didn't get
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: to have as a child because of where I grew up in my culture?
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I was absolutely immersed in The Unmaking.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: The Unmaking.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: It was such a wonderful upbringing and doing that kind of thing and just going
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: to old churches and things like that.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_00: But I do think there's also an element of rose tinted glasses with that.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: I know at the time,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_00: mum would always say that,
1:08:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:15
SPEAKER_00: whichever one of them was with me drew the short straw in these stately homes
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: because they'd have to go through it at breakneck speed before I got too bored.
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: So, but yeah,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_00: I think both the culture,
1:08:26
SPEAKER_00: but also for me, the other thing is the proximity to Europe.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: in those days,
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: It costs nothing to go on the ferry and drive over to France and have
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: a two week holiday in France.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: And I'm under no illusion now that the life I had growing up,
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: while affordable then, would probably be absolutely prohibitive now.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: So those are the things that I really value with the long lens of time.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I realised how amazing it was at the time because we all know
1:08:54
SPEAKER_00: that youth is wasted on the young and that was just what our life was.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_00: What, you know, the boys have grown up with is Wanaka.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: They have grown up with the outdoors.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_00: They have grown up in a blessedly safe environment.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know,
1:09:12
SPEAKER_00: we wouldn't, I mean,
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: I think we've always told the boys not to talk to strangers either, but,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: there aren't that many strangers in Wanaka compared to,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_00: you know, growing up in London.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_00: So to have the outdoors,
1:09:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:24
SPEAKER_00: when they were bored,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: Going down to the lake,
1:09:27
SPEAKER_00: feeding the eels,
1:09:29
SPEAKER_00: going to Wanaka Station Park and playing, all those things is just absolutely magic.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_00: The fact that they don't, not only do they not remember how to ski, but that they could ski.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: I know that there is still an element of privilege that comes with the ability
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: to take part in a winter sport.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_00: But when you compare it to, say,
1:09:48
SPEAKER_00: skiing in the Alps,
1:09:49
SPEAKER_00: where it really is,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: I'd say,
1:09:54
SPEAKER_00: it's considerably more expensive and exclusive to do so,
1:09:58
SPEAKER_00: you know, all those kind of things.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: The fact that school skiing,
1:10:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:10:01
SPEAKER_00: that's part of the curriculum at primary school here, all those opportunities.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_00: But much like me taking those churches,
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: the museums,
1:10:09
SPEAKER_00: and Going to France every summer for granted,
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: you know, they've just taken all of that for granted.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think when they look back, as I am now, that they will realise how extraordinary that is.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_01: It feels a little bit like writing is the third act in the play that is your life
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: from a professional perspective.
1:10:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you see it like that?
1:10:30
SPEAKER_01: Or is this something that has been in some ways inevitable that you've been working towards?
1:10:35
SPEAKER_01: Or is this more of a, oh no, actually, no, this is, you know, I'll try this now.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, I mean,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: when I left Ripon,
1:10:43
SPEAKER_00: there was definitely an element of, oh my God, what am I going to do now?
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been in wine all my professional career.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_00: I certainly didn't want to go and work with another winery.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: Why would
1:10:53
SPEAKER_00: And who would have me when I'm so kind of clearly connected to Ripon?
1:10:57
SPEAKER_00: So there was that moment of, okay, what are my skills?
1:11:01
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I can string words together.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_00: So that seemed to be kind of where I wanted to go.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: And I had this amazing man,
1:11:09
SPEAKER_00: he's now dead, a historian called Keith Ovenden, whom I met through Ripon.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_00: When I decided to leave Ripon, he was actually the one who really encouraged me to write.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_00: He was like, don't lose this.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: So that kind of was a bit of a lightbulb moment of maybe I could actually do this.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_00: Maybe people might want me to do stuff for them.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: And I'd done kind of occasional, you know, reviewing friends' websites, whatever else.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, I kind of dabbled in a very, very casual, non-professional way.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_00: So...
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: I'd say it was an inevitability in as much as that's probably my kind
1:11:46
SPEAKER_00: of key strength is writing and language.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_00: But it was like, well, what else am I going to do?
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: So let's see how this goes.
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: Coming back to the question earlier around fiction or writing your own novel,
1:12:01
SPEAKER_01: whether it's fiction or based on a true story,
1:12:03
SPEAKER_01: I think there would be plenty in there.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you, as I said, do you think will perhaps come up later on or?
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, so I grew up,
1:12:15
SPEAKER_00: like any good teenage girl in the late 90s,
1:12:19
SPEAKER_00: Jilly Cooper,
1:12:20
SPEAKER_00: so Sex and Horses,
1:12:22
SPEAKER_00: and my great idea when I left Riffin was that I was going to write a bonkbuster set
1:12:27
SPEAKER_00: in the world of wine.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: I've kind of got it mapped out,
1:12:32
SPEAKER_00: who knows,
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to think that one day I might write that,
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: but possibly more just for me than actually sending it out into the world.
1:12:41
SPEAKER_00: But look, beyond that, I'm not sure I can.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, I read an awful lot.
1:12:46
SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
1:12:47
SPEAKER_00: actually,
1:12:47
SPEAKER_00: I was just reading a book kind of recently and just marvelling at this use
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: of language and how they can map out this unbelievable story.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't actually think I can do that.
1:13:00
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the muse will hit when it comes right, but I can't yet see that for me.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm okay with that.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_01: Any pieces of advice that you'd give to yourself,
1:13:09
SPEAKER_01: the Joe that was getting ready to leave the UK and head out off
1:13:13
SPEAKER_01: on this big massive adventure, knowing now what you do now?
1:13:20
SPEAKER_00: Don't overthink, be present, I think that's always been
1:13:28
SPEAKER_00: A flaw of mine is either to spend too much time looking backwards
1:13:31
SPEAKER_00: or looking forwards and not being present.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think that if I had mastered that earlier, things
1:13:41
SPEAKER_00: at points could have been easier.