Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / “1200 retailers before we even had the stock!" Sundae Body’s co-Founder Lizzie Waley reveals her Retail Playbook! (Part 1)

Transcript

“1200 retailers before we even had the stock!" Sundae Body’s co-Founder Lizzie Waley reveals her Retail Playbook! (Part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  This is Lizzie Whaley for Female Startup Club.
• 0:12
  Hello and welcome back to the show. It's Dune here, your host and hype girl. Today on the show, we are getting a front row seat into the joyful world of Sunday Body, a body care brand who has absolutely exploded in the last couple of years. They are gonna be in more than 7,000 stores by the end of this year, and there is so much gold packed into this episode.
• 0:39
  We're going through the original thought process to starting this brand and how they landed on the kind of look and feel and brand vibe. How they got into 1,200 stores before even launching and a bunch of really good stuff around the retail playbook.
• 0:58
  If you love this episode, you can find more about Lizzie in our weekly newsletter linked in the show notes below, and we would love to see you there. Let's get into it. This is Lizzie for Female Startup Club.
• 1:11
  Lizzie, hi, welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm really, really excited. Oh my gosh, me too. I feel like I have been excited about this episode ever since I met you. I think we met at Jane Liu's party, right? After BitchCon. Yeah, yeah, we did. Love BitchCon. Shout out to Jane and Jen. So great.
• 1:34
  a great it's such a great community it was a great event um hosted by two epic legends so yeah and then got to meet yourself which was awesome love that for us
• 1:45
  I want to start by jumping straight into it because I feel like I have about 700 million questions for you and I want to dig into so many different avenues of kind of like how you've built this business, the brand, the retail play, the experiential stuff. So I want to kind of go straight back to what you were up to in your life circa 2020, 2021, when you and your bestie were kind of thinking about launching a D2C brand.
• 2:15
  Yeah, so I was in my previous job, which I was at one of the big four media buying agencies. So my clients were Disney and TikTok at the time, and I was managing all the sort of digital media buying that came through the team. And I really loved it. It was a really...
• 2:34
  really great career and yeah, very, very fun. And I love the team. But I've always sort of been that person that just likes to create brands and be really creative on the side. So I have like a little graveyard of basically all these brand ideas that never really came to fruition. And I've, I've done that since, I think just since I basically left school.
• 2:59
  And yeah, it's kind of just always been in my, I guess, character type to always have some sort of side hustle going on where I'm either ideating an idea and,
• 3:10
  And yeah, basically that was kind of where I was at. But I never sort of, none of them ever came to fruition because I'm actually incredibly risk adverse. And I was never willing to sort of, yeah, I was never really willing to sort of go out on my own and bring any of those brands.
• 3:30
  ideas to life. And basically my friend or my best friend and I at the time, we always had that kind of relationship where we just sort of throw ideas around. And I think there's that saying, you sort of throw it at the wall, see what sticks and what kind of stuck was basically the opportunity to
• 3:47
  bring a bit of innovation to the body wash category. So he had been traveling for, it was about four months. It was a really, really long time. And he came back and we had dinner and we basically somehow don't even ask, just basically got on the topic of the hotel soap that he was using in his travels. And how basically it was just this like plastic wrapped bar soap. And this was back in
• 4:13
  it was back in 2019. So this was kind of before hotels got really fancy with their body washes. And a lot of the time you're kind of using that plastic wrapped white bar soap. I think he was complaining about how dry his skin was and like basically blamed that soap. And that's kind of how we got onto the topic of the fact that there was so much innovation happening in hair care and skincare and just,
• 4:40
  nothing interesting in body wash. And, you know, you sort of walk down the aisles at your supermarket and everything you sort of, you know, inundated with a sea of, you know, black, white, neutral pump bottles. And we just couldn't really believe that the most exciting thing in that aisle was basically like this pump body wash that
• 5:00
  was a gel. Yeah. Palm Olive and like Dove. They're like the only two things I can think of. Yeah. The big personal care companies. Exactly. Like a lot of them, you know, they're, they exist to fulfill a need and then that is to cleanse, but none of them really excite you. You don't go, oh my gosh, I just can't wait to use this body wash. And so, yeah,
• 5:20
  It kind of just snowballed from there. We just basically thought, okay, well, let's make an innovative body wash, whatever that is. And we briefed a formulator and she sort of came back to us and was like, look, there are only so many ways you can basically deliver a surfactant or a soap. You know, you've got your solid form being the bar soap. You've got your gel or a foam. And we were like, oh, okay, okay.
• 5:44
  And then we were a bit, I think we were a bit disappointed, I think, because we're expecting some really cool format that we'd never seen before. And then we just kind of sat on it and thought, oh gosh, well, why wouldn't we make the foam thicker and creamier and position it like whipped cream? Like who wouldn't want to lather themselves with whipped cream in the shower? And that's kind of how it all started. And up until that point, it was still very much a side
• 6:14
  I genuinely thought at that point this would always be a side project and that I would always keep my job in digital media and progress my career and have this really fun, I guess, passion project on the side. But yeah, we kind of pitched to Woolworths and Priceline and suddenly we were in 1,100 stores before we'd launched and I had no choice but to quit my job and kind of just put it
• 6:40
  put all the energy into, into Sunday. What the heck? That is so crazy. And I feel like we should stop here because I have like so many questions to ask you at this point, before we get into the retail piece and that kind of like...
• 6:55
  huge success to launch into 1100 stores pre-launch, which I'm sure everyone listening is going to be like, but how? And we'll get there. But I want to kind of focus first on the branding and kind of where you had built the brand to before you even started the retail kind of outreach and things like that. Like,
• 7:13
  Was the brand what we see it as today? Like is that was already the look, feel, tone on your very first pitch deck? And how were you developing that? Like was that just you because of your background or was that in partnership with an agency? And, yeah, kind of like understanding the development of the vibes because the vibes are so good. Oh, thank you. Look, I think –
• 7:38
  when we developed this body wash, I guess, we kind of really honed in on why are we trying to bring innovation to body wash? And I think a lot of it was about the why. And the why was about igniting joy in what are otherwise, you know, pretty run-of-the-mill mundane moments. And I think, you know, if we kind of look at the nostalgia piece as a kid, bath time, shower time, it was so much fun. You know, you couldn't pull me out of the bath without kicking and screaming. So,
• 8:08
  I think somewhere along the way, it just got really lost and became a really routine sort of get in, get out, get on with your day situation that I think we just kind of saw an opportunity to bring that joy and play kind of element back to that time of day. So that was kind of the.
• 8:27
  purpose from the very start or the goal from the very start. And as we sort of started to build out these body washes, which were really naive at the time building this brand based on one product, and that was something that sort of came to light throughout the building process that we actually need to build this into just more than just one line of body washes. And when we started to unpack it, we just realized that there were really a lot of moments in your day that could be more joyful.
• 8:53
  And certainly when it comes to body care, like I can't remember the last person that said they were excited to use their body wash or moisturize their body or exfoliate. And I think that's really come into play now with, you know, you see sort of trends like the everything shower, but back then certainly nobody paid attention to body care. And I think we saw that as a real opportunity. So I think from there, our purpose of, I guess, igniting joy
• 9:18
  That really informed the branding and what we were trying to achieve visually and the brand identity. We didn't work with an agency. We just had one designer that helped bring the logo and the colour palettes and the typography to life. And it really hasn't evolved much since we started. Like, of course, I've been working.
• 9:39
  Of course, it's evolved some bit, but the brand identity is still very much consistent. It's still that playful, colourful, really joyous kind of look and feel. And that really, yeah, that hasn't really changed too much. And I think it's because we were so clear on, I guess, our purpose from the start. We haven't really had to pivot, do a rebrand, elevate it. We haven't, you know, we've kind of stayed true to why we started it and have just basically been able to, which has allowed us to really sort of build out the offering in a really
• 10:09
  way that doesn't feel too jarring. I also think just having, you know, a really clear purpose, I think that's a lot of our success would be attributed to that purpose. And of course, everything that guides everything from what you do, from branding to product development, to your marketing.
• 10:27
  Yeah, hell yeah. Your social and your marketing is so much fun and that's definitely deeper on my list. I want to kind of talk about getting into this retail moment, getting to the point of you pitching these retailers kind of pre-launch, pre-traction, pre-customers. What was that strategy like for you and just how did that come about? How does that happen?
• 10:52
  When we had the idea, it was not, body washes weren't really bought online. And in fact, it was not, I don't remember any body wash that would have been available from an e-commerce perspective. And if you look at consumer behavior, people are used to buying their body washes from supermarkets and grocery stores. So,
• 11:14
  we knew that that was always where we wanted to be in grocery. And I think because we were bringing this whipped cream style body wash to market, which was so different to a gel and so different to a bar soap, you know, we were kind of changing the way in which people consumed their body wash. We didn't want to change the way in which they shopped it too, because I think it would have been a really hard sell. So we wanted to, I guess, be where consumers are used to buying their body wash. So it was always, we always wanted to be in supermarkets, but
• 11:44
  we have no experience, absolutely no experience in retail. And it's crazy now because we're in over four and a half thousand doors and my background is not in retail at all. So that was kind of the start of, okay, well, we know we want to be in retail. We know we want to be in grocery. Where do we start? And so, you know, just like any, anyone you sort of ask around, you ask friends. And a friend of ours happened to be a bank manager for an Australian distributor.
• 12:10
  And she said, oh, you've got to meet my friends. They're starting a business and I feel like
• 12:16
  In fact, I don't feel like I know that it was a massive eye roll moment for them. They were like, oh, my God, not one of these. You know, they really did not have the time for it. They were like, what do you mean this whipped cream body wash? Like, we're not. So we basically met with them and I had a pool presentation pulled together just to sort of show them what the brand was, what the product and where we sort of see it going.
• 12:46
  you know, really kind of got them on board on the idea and they sort of said, okay, well, we'll put you forward to Woolworths and Priceline and see how you go. Wow. Just from the one meeting or like that kind of early conversation. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So that was really good. And we pitched to both retailers during COVID lockdown. So it was over Zoom. And I think it was, you know, I think there hadn't been anything in the category. And so that's
• 13:16
  potentially looking for something different. But I also think timing played a huge part in it because it was kind of that time where everybody was doing a bit of self-care at home, which is where our product really plays into perfectly. So yeah, I think that's kind of what propelled us forward into those retailers. And yeah, we got in before we even turned our website on or sort of
• 13:39
  properly launched. So it was really good to have the backing of those two retailers right from the start. It gave us that credibility. My questions here is like, did you have to say to them, like as in the retailers, these two major players, did you have to be like, hey, this is the budget we're going to use to support these campaigns? Like what were you using to kind of like prove and convince them to take a bet on you as a new brand that doesn't have a website up yet?
• 14:08
  Yeah, there was a big part of it that was marketing. It's really interesting. When I look back at the pitch deck now, I think it was like, it was about 27 slides and being someone that loves branding, about 13 of those slides were dedicated to our why.
• 14:23
  why we exist, how we're different, how we plan to position ourselves on shelf, in market. And I think that kind of storytelling really got them on board in terms of our reason for being. And I think that's a really powerful tool when pitching to retailers, especially when you're trying to sell a dream. At that point, you know, we hadn't even done our production run. We had a white plain can sample that wasn't even mocked up properly properly.
• 14:49
  So I think that whole reason for being pieces is really powerful. And then essentially the second part of the deck was, you're right, marketing. So there was a bit of trade marketing there in terms of how the distributor plans to drive product trials. So a bit of a promo plan. So a couple of, you know, 30% off here throughout the year. And then as well, how we plan to drive consumers in store. So it's all well and good to sort of,
• 15:15
  drive trial and capture attention once you're on shelf. But we really wanted to bring a new consumer into their stores. And I think that that was really compelling for them to bring that sort of Gen Z millennial customer in and I guess reinvigorate the category.
• 15:31
  So, yeah, there was a big marketing section, but no budgets were put towards it because, you know, you'll probably come to learn that we're really bad at cash flow planning. So that was not something that we were like even talking about at that point. But I knew the tactics that I wanted to put forward. And a lot of it was around community building, community nurturing. And I think that's kind of what excited them about the brand.
• 15:55
  And for that kind of piece of driving, you know, this new consumer into the stores and community building, was that primarily through, you know, social media and the different channels? Or was there like a more strategic approach that you went really deep into? Or were you just kind of like, it's content, we're going to do content at scale and we're going to get them in the store? Yeah.
• 16:15
  Social media was a huge part of it, but product trial as well was a huge part of it too. So we did a lot of giveaways. We did a lot of product sampling. Yeah, we gave away a lot of products because I think at that point,
• 16:31
  you know, that point we were asking people not only to buy into a new brand, but it was a new format. You know, we were asking them to basically put this whipped cream can of body wash into their shower and use it. And then of course, charge $20 for it, which at the time was about three times the price of an average body wash. And it was just purely because of the cost that it takes to make.
• 16:56
  So we're not only asking them to buy into a new brand, a new format, but also pay around two to three times what you'd normally pay for a body wash. So it was a really big challenge for us to take on. So product trial was really, really important so that we could get people trying it. We knew once they tried it, they would like it and would buy it. So it was kind of that social media piece around excitement and
• 17:21
  And then literally just giving away product for people to try. And yeah, just pray that that worked. Well, it worked well. It worked really, really well. 1,200 doors to launch, 1,100 doors to launch. That's obviously a lot of inventory. That's a lot of capital spent on marketing. That's a lot of money to start with. What is the money piece around launch? Like how much did it cost you to get the business off the ground? And where did you get that money from to be able to do it?
• 17:51
  Yeah, so we're self-funded and you know, it's funny, I don't remember spending a whole lot at the start in terms of it was just your run-of-the-mill branding website, about 20k or something on the formulation itself and it wasn't a whole lot on that startup piece but it's the stock and that's probably the most expensive thing about starting a business which we were so naive, we did not forecast for and
• 18:18
  When we got into the stores, in came in the purchase order and suddenly we needed, you know, it was a half million dollar purchase order because our distributor held stock on hand and we had no way to fund that stock to actually deliver that purchase order. And I remember looking at the purchase order and just moving so quickly from excitement to just sheer fear going, oh, crap, we actually don't have the money to actually make this stock.
• 18:48
  And it was at that point that we were like discussing, God, we might actually not be able to take up this deal because it's such a huge amount of units and we don't have the money to be able to even pay the manufacturer.
• 19:03
  So what we did was we negotiated our payment terms with our manufacturer. We said, listen, we've got this distribution contract. We have ranging in Woolworths and Priceline, our payment terms with our distributor, 30 days end of month. So when we deliver the stock to the distributor, they pay us 30 days from the end of the month. And we asked if we could align the payment terms. And I think
• 19:28
  thank gosh, that the manufacturer said yes. And I think having the backing of a distributor more worse than price line obviously helped. But if we'd not negotiated those payment terms to align to essentially the same day we got paid, money went out, we wouldn't have been able to fund that order at all. Nowhere near. Wow, that's so interesting. I'm also wondering, like, on the distributor piece,
• 19:53
  Obviously, you had kind of like a friend of a friend, connect the dots, you know, great situation to be in. But like, what was the payment kind of situation with a distributor? Like, does it work where you're actually paying them a retainer up front or do they take a percentage of sales that they drive? Or how is that kind of broken down for you?
• 20:11
  Yeah, so they take a percentage basically of the RRP. So you have your recommended retail price, which say on shelf it's $20. You know, retailers will take around, say, 50% margin. So that's about $10. And then the distributor will take a percentage of that $10. So the sell price to the retailer.
• 20:32
  So it can be anywhere between 30% to 50%. So that'd be 30% to 50% of that $10. And then that's what we'd sell it to them for. So it can be a costly model. It can cost a lot of people out of that distribution model because they don't have the margins to go via distributor. But I'm a really big fan of the distribution model because for a few reasons, it's, you know, they hold...
• 20:59
  risk and they have skin in the game. So it's in their best interest to make sure you're selling on shelf because they've bought the stock off you. At that point in time, if it doesn't sell on shelf, the retailers are chasing the distributor, not the brand because they've actually sold the stock to the retailer. So I like it because there's skin in the game. It's more of a partnership as opposed to just, you know, sort of clipping the ticket on the way through. And I think
• 21:25
  In terms of that stock on hand piece, that's been really helpful for us because our minimum order quantities are huge. So they're 20,000. And I think with retailers, they generally sort of order weekly, can take time to sort of move that. Whereas the distributor will generally hold some stock on hand one to two months, say. So that really helps to get your minimum order quantities up. And yeah, it just helps sort of bridge that cashflow gap of us holding stock on hand and
• 21:53
  potentially, you know, that's money that we're sort of sitting on.
• 21:56
  Yeah, totally, totally. And around that time, like I'm still kind of in this launch moment, go to market strategy phase, you launch into the stores. What are you doing kind of from your direct to consumer website channels? And are you focusing on that at all at that time? Obviously, there's much better margins, you're kind of owning that customer relationship. What's that side of the puzzle or the piece of the puzzle for you? It took us a while to work out, actually, because as I said, at that point in time, a lot of people weren't
• 22:25
  entirely comfortable or maybe used to buying body wash online? And, you know, where do you drive your marketing to? Do you support the two retailers that have, you know, taken a chance on you and try and drive people in store there? Do you drive people to your D2C site? And so I think for us, we really wanted to drive people to the D2C site for the storytelling and to understand about the brand a little bit more.
• 22:53
  And then in terms of purchasing, you know, we really ultimately wanted them to purchase in-store if they wanted a single or just like one unit. And then on the website, what we did was we sort of geared it towards bundling and gifting. So that's how we kind of saw, I guess, the experience in terms of if you're a customer and you just –
• 23:13
  you're a little bit nervous because it's a new brand. It's probably a little bit more expensive than what you'd normally spend on a body wash. You were just probably buying one. Um, we definitely would want you to go in store and buy that, but you know, if you're a return customer or you're wanting to gift it to a friend, we felt like that was really the perfect place for our e-com store. So what we did was we basically built a bundle builder, which, you know, everybody has, it's really so common, but, um, our website very much favors bundling and everyone that,
• 23:43
  I guess, or every customer that received their order, it was in the same box that, you know, all our influences and media received, which is like a really beautiful yellow and white stripe scallop box. That unboxing experience was really fun. And that's how we sort of saw the two, I guess the two channels complementing each other. And to this day, it's been something, a model that's worked really well for us in terms of, yeah, I guess the channel split.
• 24:12
  And am I right in thinking kind of in that early phase, it was really about gifting at scale, working with creators at scale and organic content until you kind of had the budget to invest in, you know, paid efforts and paid marketing? It was eight months before we put on any or turned on any sort of ads. So,
• 24:31
  We really, really did a lot of gifting. We did a lot of mailers to influencers and really focused on the unboxing experience in terms of the actual, you know, box that it got delivered in. And, yeah, it wasn't until eight months later that we were really comfortable with not only just selling
• 24:49
  you know, what we were, the gifting side of things, but the customer service side of things as well. Like we really wanted to make sure that was perfect and we had our community really, it was a really solid, I guess, community before we started to scale it because we wanted to be able to make sure that everyone felt nurtured and had the attention and customer service, my very first job was actually in a call centre. So customer service is a really big one for me and I really wanted to make sure that that was,
• 25:18
  perfect before we started to scale. So yeah, at the start, it was a lot of, as I said, gifting, but a lot of brand partnerships as well to sort of help us build credibility and lean on, I guess, the brand values of other brands as well and their audience. And actually PR was something that we invested in from the start because we really felt like
• 25:41
  you know, as a new brand, we needed the credibility of publications writing about us as part of our sort of initial launch strategy.
• 25:49
  And was that working like with a publicist or with a PR agency or was that using something like LinkBee and kind of DIYing it through performance driven PR channels? We used a PR agency and it was the biggest investment in terms of our marketing mix at the time. And it was a really, it was a large, because not a lot of small businesses can afford PR agencies. And it's.
• 26:14
  I remember having the conversation around that. I think it's really important for particularly our brand to have, I guess, the backing of an agency and the support of a PR agency. But it was definitely a sizable investment and we were lucky that we had, I guess, those regular POs or purchase orders coming in through from the distributor to be able to help fund that.
• 26:35
  Mm-hmm. Since that kind of early time over the last couple of years, what would you say have been the pivotal moments and kind of like leaps forward in the business? Obviously, you've had this amazing kind of launch moment and such a, you know, hit the ground running type vibe. Then you've scaled into four and a half thousand stores. But in between kind of now and then, what have been those exciting moments that have been the incremental ups or the big ups?
• 27:04
  I would love, you know, I think any brand would love to say, oh, is this marketing campaign that we did, you know, and I mean, I would love to say that, but it's just not. It's really, it's newness, it's launches that propel you forward. And in between, you know, then and now we've had a number of launches, whether it be a new retailer.
• 27:25
  a new product. And it's really those, you know, sort of that newness that really, it really moves, it shifts the dial, I want to say. So, we brought out, we sort of had a limited edition strategy as well, where
• 27:41
  Every season, we sort of bring out our seasonals. So we had gingerbread for Christmas. Oh, yeah, cool. Yeah, so all those kind of fun limited editions. And the birthday cake? Is that a limited? Birthday cake, yeah. Oh, that's my favourite one. I love that one. Yeah, it's the same, same. So it's those kind of new product drops.
• 27:58
  new launches into retailers, any excuse to sort of bring newness and new messaging to customers, that's really what kind of gains momentum. And your sort of marketing moments, I feel we treat them as just an extension of our brand storytelling. It doesn't necessarily drive, you know,
• 28:16
  a huge amount of brand awareness or new customers, but it just helps our brand storytelling and tell our customers a little bit more about us as well and nurture our existing community. So we have a lot of customer activations. But yeah, newness is what's interesting to people and that's what really shifts the dial. I think when we did, we did a collaboration with Messina last year where we sort of did some of their best selling,
• 28:42
  gelato flavors. Yeah. Oh my God. I love body washes. Um, so we did four of that and that made a, that was a huge, that had a huge impact on our brand awareness. I think leveraging such a iconic brand like Messina, but also just having new products that people can shop. Um, yeah, is really what helps sort of propel us forward. So in like a 12 month period, how many new launches or new product kind of messages or campaigns would you be aiming for?
• 29:12
  We've been very lucky because we, in terms of the retailers, it's been quite reactive. A lot of them have approached us, which has been really great. And so we'll have many in any year, like this year. Like eight or like 20? Yeah, I think this year we will probably more towards maybe 10 new retailer launches. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's a lot.
• 29:37
  It's a lot. It's a lot. So we're in Australia, New Zealand, UK, America, US, soon to be Ireland, and then one more market coming online. So within those markets, of course, there are a number of retailers. So that's been really, really great for us in terms of just having something new to talk about, but also just a new audience for us to tap into. And then product launches, we sort of aim
• 30:01
  We don't have a number per se, just as long as it makes sense for the brand to sort of branch out into that product extension. But I think this year we will have maybe 20 product launches. Wow, that is a lot. Holy moly. Yeah.
• 30:19
  you know, obviously you were saying you didn't have experience in retail, now you do, but is it kind of the distributor who's handling all of the logistics and that kind of, you know, getting it into new countries and all the stuff that comes with operations? Absolutely. They handle all, I guess, the relationships with the retailers and the operations around delivering it to the individual stores. We still have a few...
• 30:46
  fair bit of work around the operational piece in terms of getting it to the distributor. But certainly, it's a fraction of what the distributor has to go to. I think in terms of the experience that I sort of refer to, it's more communicating and working with the retailer on a marketing plan that's going to speak directly to their customers. And that whole sort of trade marketing piece as well has been completely new to me.
• 31:10
  something that I learned was, you know, what we do in Australia is like a high-low promotion. So we might be on a higher promotion and then the next promotion we might do is a bit of a lower one and sort of, you know, alternate between the two, which has been really successful to us. So it's learnings like that that I just would have never experienced
• 31:27
  even have guessed was a strategy that we've had to sort of get our heads around. And I think just working with retailers from the sense that a lot of the time you'll sort of get your on-shelf date and it might be only a month or two before that you get confirmation. So you've got to move quite quickly and hold some stuff on hand to be able to facilitate those kind of launches.
• 31:48
  Mmm, totally. And like, one thing I wanted to ask you about, and maybe this ties into kind of the launch moment, let's say you're launching a new product, or maybe it's with a retailer, but something that I noticed you do really well on your social media is that kind of experiential moment. Like it's, you've got such like fun, you know, the diner moment and the scratchies moment and the Hollywood star moment and these kinds of things that are such fun content pieces. And
• 32:15
  Could you kind of break down a bit of like one of your favorite launches that you've done and like what actually does a launch look like? Yeah, definitely the favorite launch would have to be the diner one that you mentioned. It's so cool. Yeah. It was a really big moment. We completely underestimated what
• 32:32
  it would take to take over a diner for two days and none of us have any experience in hospitality. So it was really interesting, but even just down to like the wax paper that the pies were served on, like it was just the amount of effort it took. And I think where it is most important,
• 32:50
  time consuming is the design work. So it's all well and good. You can sort of ideate, yeah, we're going to take over a diner and you sort of have the comms with the venue and, you know, you have your invite list and that's all pretty standard. But it's just the little design details that really sort of, it basically just doubles every time you look at it. You look at something and be like, okay, we're going to do free cherry pies for people that come. Okay, great. So we'll
• 33:19
  negotiate that and that's all great. Oh, crap, what are we going to give people the pie in? Oh, okay, so suddenly we're designing a box. And then, oh, but what if people want to eat in? Okay, so we're designing wax paper for it to go on the plate. So it was just really, really design heavy. And I think the output was like, I think it was like over 200 pieces of design that we had to sort of do, whether it was like a decal, a menu, like even...
• 33:48
  Yeah, so it was really a lot of work and then getting it all printed, of course. But it was the most rewarding, I guess, campaign that we've done because you sort of got to see people's reaction as they're eating the pie, drinking the milkshake. And it was, yeah, a really, really rewarding one for us. Oh, my gosh. I love that. How big is your team now? And like, what is your zone of genius that you're kind of like focused on in the business day to day?
• 34:17
  So we have seven people in our team. So it's pretty small. Wow, it's really small. Yeah, it's really small. I thought it was going to be bigger than that. No. Wow, well done. Yeah, so we've got seven people in our team. So we've got three in operations, two in marketing plus myself. And then we have one in sales as well, who sort of manages all the distributors in every market and finds new markets for us to grow into. In terms of my zone of genius,
• 34:46
  you know, I often refer to myself as a jack of all trades, master of none. And I think that's kind of been my biggest learning in business is you sort of start out that way because you're scrappy and you're trying to do everything and you're trying to keep costs down. But it's, you know, one of the main things that holds you back from growth because you're not focusing in on that zone of genius. And, you know,
• 35:11
  I think, you know, hiring people has been and having a team has been the best thing for us because you have people working in their zone of genius, making it the best that they can be. And it allows me to sort of focus on what I love, which is the branding, it's the marketing and the new product development.
• 35:30
  And yeah, that's what I enjoy the most. Whether I get to do that every day, definitely not, I wish. But, you know, it's part and parcel of being, I guess, a business owner. You've got to do it all. And I think it's just being able to free yourself up so that at least, you know, 70% of what you do is your zone of genius. Totally, totally. Always lots of different things to do. Always things being thrown in the air. Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 35:57
  I want to loop back to like the money piece because obviously, you know, you've negotiated those terms in the beginning. I'm sure that's a process that you've followed throughout. But what other ways are you kind of financing the business? And I mean kind of like are you going to companies like Shopify Capital or Clearco and accessing those lines of marketing?
• 36:17
  revenue-based debt or are you going to whatever? How are you kind of financing the business as you're growing? That's a good question. Two ways. So I guess the payment terms for us has been key. And I think that first, you know, negotiation of our payment terms with our manufacturer still pays off today. And it's just been an absolute lifesaver in terms of our cash
• 36:44
  sort of expand into a new market and work with a new distributor, again, the payment terms come in. So we'll usually ask for 50% of the order up front. And that sort of helps us with the establishment costs in that market. And it's just that first order that you need help with. It's always the biggest. And, you know, if it's a new market, certainly you have
• 37:03
  a lot of the costs are sort of front weighted to the start. So the terms, negotiating terms has been key for us. And then we also have a trade loan with the bank. So basically it's just this loan that we constantly draw on, pay back, draw on, pay back. And then that's how we've sort of been able to operate. But the trade loan's been great, but it's really those payment terms, especially when you're sort of expanding into a new market that have really saved us. And it's something that I encourage anyone to do, even if it's with an existing loan.
• 37:33
  supplier, you can always negotiate your terms. And, you know, they're invested too. At the end of the day, you're buying stock off them, they're making money. So it's in their best interest to help you succeed. Absolutely. And what's that saying? It's like,
• 37:48
  When you get a no, that's the start of a negotiation, something like that. I haven't heard that. That's great, though. I love that. So like instead of finding a no, like a, you know, a shock and kind of like an end point, it's actually the beginning because at least you've got an answer and then you can work from there to figure out like, why is it a no and how can we turn it into a yes? And I think that's such a good insight to kind of keep like in your back pocket rather than being like, oh, shit. Okay, well, that's it. You know, it's over. Absolutely. They gave me a no.
• 38:13
  Yeah, exactly. And I think getting people on board with your vision also really helps as well because, you know, people, we all have emotions and I think emotions tend to drive a lot of decision making. So if you can get sort of people on board with your vision and invested emotionally and personally, I think
• 38:30
  I think that also helps negotiations as well. So taking them along the journey. Absolutely. Everything is relationship based. Like at the end of the day, your customers, it's relationship, your audience online relationship, your partners, everyone is a relationship. So it's, yeah, really keeping that vibe and that story going with everyone who's kind of a stakeholder in the business or involved in some way.
• 38:52
  I feel like we've talked about so many great things that are happening for you and so many, you know, cool things. But what is like the shit side of business for you? And what have been some of the challenges that aren't, you know, what we see on social media? Yeah.
• 39:07
  Yeah, there's, I mean, I feel like there's a challenge every day. It's just on that scale of like how big of a challenge. I think the biggest challenge that I've personally had is definitely cash flow and managing the finance side of things. It's just not how my brain works. I really, really struggle. And in fact, I kind of shut down when it comes to money and I really, really struggle with it. So that's definitely been one of the biggest challenges.
• 39:37
  this sort of played out when we started to expand into the UK. So that was our first international market. And we just didn't foresee how, just basically having stock on the water and that kind of 60 day transit time, how much that would affect our cash flow. I mean, it sounds pretty obvious, right? But you just don't think about it at the time when you're like, I'm just going to send this container off and it's going to go into Urban Outfitters and Cult Beauty and ASOS and,
• 40:05
  how exciting we've got these new contracts and, you know, sort of from the time that we got the stock onto a ship and it took 60 days to get over there, you know, it takes some time for your warehouse to recede it in. This is all time you're not getting paid for. It's delaying that. Yeah. It's money just sitting on a ship. Exactly. You've paid, yeah. By then you've kind of paid for your stock and you've just got this gap. And yeah,
• 40:31
  You know, sometimes the retailer payment terms, you know, they can be anywhere from 30 to mainly around 60 days. And then that starts from when they actually get the stock delivered. So we found that with our first order,
• 40:44
  to the UK, it was six months before we got paid, which is just the longest amount of time to not have that cash. And that was really a really big learning for us in terms of just having planned that and just any experience in exporting at all, you'd know, okay, there's going to be some time that your product's going to be in transit and you do have to, I guess, plan to not have that cash for that amount of time.
• 41:10
  that's definitely been our biggest challenge. And so we have an accountant now that manages all of that. And I'm so, so grateful because yeah, there's no way I could do that now. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. That's a really big insight. And it's obviously like something that you really kind of probably only discover when you're in it and then being like, oh shit, this is crazy. What do we do now? Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, I think
• 41:39
  it was a really big learning for us in terms of, you know, where our stock can't go via air freight. So a lot of businesses can export quite, it's not a huge risk sometimes because they can export or they can sort of ship small quantities by a plane and kind of get away with it that way. But we have to send containers of stock by sea. So it's quite a large investment for us to expand into a new market and
• 42:08
  Yeah, we learnt that basically, you know, as we were in the new market. Gosh, that is so interesting. Do you think you'll raise or do you think you'll stay bootstrapped? I think there's definitely going to come a point where my vision for this brand is to basically just be in as many markets as possible. I think it's just
• 42:31
  I really just want to bring that element of play and joy and just, you know, to as many showers as possible. And I think being, I am very ambitious and I think I, you know, we're on a really great trajectory at the moment. So I wouldn't want to turn away new business opportunities or new markets because of funding. So I'm.
• 42:50
  I think there's probably going to come a time, you know, where at the moment we're sort of stalling on a few markets because we don't have the cash to fund it or even the resource to fund it. So I think, you know, if we make as a business, if we make the decision to really go, all right, let's do it, we're taking on all these new markets, we're absolutely going to need funding because it's expensive.
• 43:11
  Yeah, totally. Gosh, it is expensive. Product-based businesses require capital. Yeah, they really do. And yeah, I think, you know, of course, we'll take in our number one tip of negotiating the payment terms, but that will only get you so far. Gets you so far. Yeah. Yeah. Where's the business today? Like, what do you want to kind of shout about? How big is it? Do you share any kind of numbers publicly about like where you're at? And, you know, what are you excited about that's coming up?
• 43:41
  So the business, we're currently in four and a half thousand doors. And the most recent launch was the 1800 Walmart stores, which it was massive. Oh my God. Yeah. I saw that. Congrats. Holy hell. Thank you. Yeah. It was a massive milestone. And so
• 44:01
  you know, at this point in time, we are sort of projected to be in 7,000 doors by the end of the year, just with what we have coming up in the way of new sort of retailer distributions. So I think probably just want to shout about that, which is something that I don't often do because I'm not a very, I'm not very good at self-reflection, but, you know, to sort of finish out this year by saying, oh, we're in over 7,000 doors globally is a pretty cool thing to say. So
• 44:30
  I think for us, it's really just focusing on making sure that we're speaking and nurturing our customers in each of those new retail relationships and markets as well. And yeah, I think that's basically it. We've got some new products coming out, which are really exciting. It sort of builds on the body care regime that we've been working on. So, yeah,
• 44:53
  That'll come out around August, September. So three new products. So exciting. And yeah, and then I'll probably just like sleep for the entire Christmas period. I bet. I bet. We need like a celebration 7,000 retailer product.
• 45:10
  Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Like confetti. That would be fun. I always like to see brands at the end of the year when they do their end of year wrap. And you sort of see everything that they've accomplished for the year. So I'm really, really looking forward to seeing us because you forget, like you just keep focusing on what's, you know, coming up and.
• 45:31
  you move on quickly because we're a small team and we've got a lot coming up. So there's not a lot of reflection. So I'm very much looking forward to that end of year wrap video. Me too. I'm going to be cheering for you. Thank you. If you had to leave our audience with kind of one piece of advice or learning or something that they should be doing today or start doing today, what would that be?
• 46:01
  valuable for me. I'm definitely a perfectionist and it definitely was not the best in my first year of business because I just wasn't getting a lot done. I was spending too much time trying to perfect every single, you know, fly that went out, every bit of like really getting into the detail. And I think
• 46:22
  yeah, it does sort of slow you down. And I think in this business, you have to be moving forward at such an incredible speed or else you sort of lose relevance and lose eyeballs and lose customers. And I think, yeah, I think that progress piece is just like, just keep moving forward and, you know, mistakes will happen. And yeah, sure, you might release a PR release with some mistakes. But I think,
• 46:48
  I think that, yeah, progress over perfection piece has been something that it's been my biggest learning, but most valuable one yet. And just kind of just letting go a little bit, just chilling out, not being such a perfectionist and a control freak. I think that is a really important when you're starting, starting a business and sort of in that first few years of starting a business. Yeah.
• 47:11
  We need to enjoy life. We need to enjoy the journey and not be forever stressed. Absolutely. I know.
• 47:23
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 47:48
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 48:10
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show, and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.