Latest / Culture Positive: An Infection Prevention Podcast / Ringworm in the OR?! Featuring Justin McKay

Transcript

Ringworm in the OR?! Featuring Justin McKay · Culture Positive: An Infection Prevention Podcast

• Ally: Welcome to Culture Positive, an infection prevention podcast where healthcare, public health, and real life meet. I'm Allie, and by day I work in infection prevention at an academic hospital, bringing my background in epidemiology and public health into everyday practice. Each week, We'll dive into healthcare stories, public health conversations, workplace realities, and the human side of this work. This is a space for curiosity, honesty, and hopefully some inspiration. I'm glad you're here. I am of the mindset that if I see a problem, I want to fix it. I am a doer. I think that's probably the case for infection preventionists in general. And I think that's also fair to say for our guests today. Listeners, please welcome Justin McKay to Culture Positive. He is the co-founder and VP for Radcare, and after a firsthand health incident, exposed just how inadequate traditional led apron care can be, he turned that personal experience into an industry-wide safety mission. Justin works directly with hospitals, imaging centers, and surgical teams nationwide, giving him a frontline view into what's actually happening. And what might be falling through the cracks when it comes to lead apron care. I'm so excited to have him today to discuss a piece of shared equipment that may not get as much attention as it should. From one hoosier to another, thank you for being here and welcome to Culture Positive. Justin: Allie, it is a pleasure. tell you what, it's an honor. You said you were a doer. And I knew in a preparation for this call, you and I were gonna hit it off. And I'm a doer too, and I love your heart because yay, you already said you have a heart for best practices and and hey, you and I are gonna have lots to talk about today. So thanks so much for having me on this program. I'm so excited to talk to your listeners. Ally: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. If if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about yourself and kind of the passion behind the work that you do and what brought you to be in this industry. Justin: Yeah. Ali, thanks so much. Like I was always so interested in in like medical surgery was always something I was so passionate about and interested in as a young guy. And so I get into sales and and hospital and I'm doing ortho and trauma. So I'm I'm doing plates and screws and and different, you know, I'm kind of a a a surgical rat, if you will. But it was always interesting to me everywhere I traveled to cover cases and surgery. it they would say, Hey, here's the vendor rack, here's where the lead is. And so you would go to pick up a lead apron, and I'm like, Wow, okay, this is like a little bit of cologne, a little bit of perfume, a little bit of this. Yeah, the Velcro's not working, there's missing a buckle. I mean, this thing is a hot mess. And so, like, here we are in a case where we're trying to focus on patient and staff safety. And, you know. Not that I'm like, woe is me as a vendor, but as I look around, I'm like, man, the lead in general is pretty decrepit. Like, like, wow, can't we do better, you know, in in the in the American healthcare system? Like, wow, all the things, all the measures we have in place, how is this getting overlooked? And so I got a ringworm on my neck from wearing a thyroid collar in the OR. And so I was a new guy. I was a a greenhorn. And so I asked the director of surgery. I knew super well, hey, what's the deal with these x-ray garments? You know, do you guys how do we clean these? I don't know. You know, but talk to radiology. I think radiology is supposed to take care of these. They have a protocol. And so everyone was irritated that I was asking questions. And I was only asking questions because, hey, I was a guy at the pharmacy with ringworm. Ally: Right, right. Justin: And so I'm like, can we get a solution here? And so I just kept getting a lot of finger pointing, a lot of like what I call hot potato, like I don't know. That's radiation safety's job. Well, that's infection prevention's job. And I couldn't get anyone to grab ownership. And I thought, wow, this doesn't feel right. We can do better than this. Ally: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think, you know, there there's different shared equipment throughout the hospital. and that's just tricky in general with people taking ownership. It does seem to be a hot potato. A lot of people don't wanna Justin: Yeah. Ally: take ownership where they they want they want a list. They want it to know exactly what they're in charge of, exactly what they need to clean. And it it's it's interesting. And I think a lead apron is maybe a piece of shared equipment that isn't at at the top of mind maybe and it's piece of equipment when you need it, you need it. You know, like it's kind of an immediate need. So it it sounds Justin: Yeah. Ally: like ownership and accountability play a pretty major role in cleaning compliance. Are there any other barriers that you've encountered with there being a barrier to clean the lead aprons correctly? Justin: Allie, thirteen years of this. I I mean I I have to give you a a concise answer on this. And listen, I'm Ally: Mm. Justin: not being dis I'm not being disrespectful. Yeah, the ownership piece has been so interesting. And here's why. So thirteen years of doing this, Texas, Florida, California, y you just name the place I've been, you know, speaking or or meeting with folks, and everyone always kinda either nods their head excuse me. They nod their head or they smirk or they smile or they laugh. They go, man, I know ours are terrible. Ours are so gross. So it rarely, if ever, in thirteen years has anyone ever said, this is not an issue. Everyone says, my gosh, we've never known what to do about this. And so everyone understands it's a vector, it's a concern. And so Ally: Mm-hmm. Justin: the challenge is what you just said, ownership and authority on this. And so it varies from state to state, which is kind of scary in America, Ally: Yeah. Justin: because there's certain states that say, hey, radiology takes care of it. And there are certain states that say, hey, each department is responsible for their own ownership. And so man, trying to get a standardized protocol like the EU, the EU has such higher standards for cleaning and inspection. And safety, and that's patient and staff safety. And doggone us, sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot in America. We're kind of the wild, wild west, because it's kind of like, well, you know, I th I think he takes care of it. I think she takes care of it. And then the really thing that keeps me up at night, and that's why 13 years into this, I'm working to where I don't sleep. I'm losing my hair, as you can see. Your lead your your readers and listeners may not see I'm losing my hair. Ally: Your hair looks very good. You're okay. Justin: You're you're very kind, thank you. But it's not a it's not a regulatory requirement. And so if you are if you're being audited by a joint commission and joint commission comes in and they say, Allie, let's see the the kick buckets in the OR, let's see your protocol, let's see your maintenance. I mean, there are so many regulations. And so x ray garments and lead aprons have just kind of They've kind of fallen as under under the radar, I guess you'd say. And, you know, it it it just the the data and the science that I know from the last decade, like, okay, it's time to time to sharpen the time to sharpen our Ally: Yeah. Justin: focus. Ally: Yeah. Do you think it's in terms of it kind of being delayed and the fact that it's not at the top of everyone's mind, do you think people don't when they think of, for instance, the OR environment, there's so much that goes into that, the negative pressure, making sure there's proper cleaning of the OR itself, clean equipment. Do you think people just don't think of the lead apron? I what do you think the disconnect is? Do you think people like really understand the risk associated with not having properly cleaned lead aprons? Justin: Yeah, it's a great question. And yeah, and so people just don't quite understand. And so for the last decade, you know, I've been on a mission of education and advocacy. And so when you tour the plants, for example, think about this, Allie. This will this will scare you. You'll be up at night saying, Why did I talk to Justin? So in a manufacturing space, when they make these garments, they're not made in what you would call a clean or a sterile environment. And so let's say you, me, and three other people were sewing garments together and I pass it to you, and you pass it to and it gets thrown in a cardboard box. Ten people have touch it with bare hands. It gets sent to the hospital and it gets moved right into a sterile environment or a semi sterile environment because it's assumed to be new. It's not sterile. It's not clean. These these manufacturing environments are open air, open window. Kind like an automotive manufacturing environment. So it's just it's just I think there's just a lot of education that needs to be driven from infection prevention. And so when you talk to surgery, they go, man, I know ours are so gross. And when you talk to radiology, they say, man, we have 2,000 garments here. Like, what we do with all this? And so in in defense of the hospitals, You know, they're overwhelmed. You know, they're short staffed, there's a there's you know, a thousand, two thousand garments in there. We don't have the square footage, we don't have the time, we don't know what to do. And so we're kind of like hands in the air. And so I I I in in my early days after getting a ringworm, I was kind of jaded. And I was like, Man, come on, you know, why are we doing more? And the more I've traveled and the more I've gone to larger or smaller hospitals. I realized wow, a lot of people just don't know what to do. Ally: Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't realize that about the manufacturers themselves for the lead aprons. That's crazy to me. Do you think a lot of people assume they arrive to the hospital as clean and sterile? Justin: Yeah, Allie, it it it so in a former medical sales life, way before I got ringworm, that's how this whole thing started. I did you know implants and plates and screws and and so the manufacturing process is totally different. And I mean, wow, standards and regulation and and so I think maybe the the the the scary word is assumed. And so I I Ally: Mm, mm-hmm. Justin: think hospitals assume that these are made in a clean environment. And so wow, you know, I tour almost every year some of the larger, the primary larger manufacturing companies who make these garments. They're great people, they're working hard, they're they're building good, you know, products, they're doing their thing. But it's like, wow, you walk in there, it's 95 degrees in July, and the windows are wide open, and people have their earbuds in, their Mountain Dew and their sodas, and they're talking on their their texting their phones. They're sold with bare hands. So you have 10 people with bare hands in an open-air environment. And like I said, it gets put in a corrugated box. That's a no-no for sterile environments. And it gets shipped. And so, Ali, as a infection prevention nerd that I am for years, I have ATP tested brand new garments at the shipping dock. So, like before they even come into a facility. And when you ATP those and you're like, my golly, this like Ally: Really? Justin: they're this is not good. This is like, think about it. Allie, anything that leaves the OR, anything that leaves a sterile environment. Okay, if you have instrument sharpening or instrument cleaning, you know, the the repair instrument, okay. They have their trailer back there, they sharpen instruments for the OR. when it comes back in, it has to be sterilized. SPD says, whoa, whatever's coming back in here, we have to sign off on it. IP has to sign off on it. This has to be the right method. And so an X-ray garment, it's clunky, it's heavy, it's porous. It's a nylon porous surface. I mean, I won't bore you. I studied biofilms for like months and how. Ally: I love we love a good biofilm. You can talk about that. I talk about biofilm all the time. Justin: Yeah. So X-ray garments are just kind of like the, you know, Alley what really, really keeps me up at night is when people say, Well, I know they're dirty and I know they're a concern. And but wait, are th is it a requirement to joint commission? Is this like a r and I'm like, listen, we know it's the best thing to do for patient and staff safety. You just admitted that. Like your staff depends on you to take care of them. Your patients obviously depend on you to take care of them. So hey, we we we gotta do the right thing here, whether it's a requirement yet or not. Ally: Yeah, that that's so tough. I I completely understand where you're coming from because there are a lot of questions that are followed up with, Well, can you send me where it says we have to do that? And Justin: I know. Ally: it's it's tough because I do think At the end of the day, everyone wants the same thing. Everyone wants everyone to be safe. We don't want to cause any harm to patient or staff. But to your point that you made earlier, everyone is just so overwhelmed. There's so much going on. Staff shortages, trying to Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Ally: educate new staff who's coming on. So I am aware of that. But it can it can sometimes feel like, but you guys, let's like, let's really, let's try to go back to basics and think about why we're here. So that is really tough. Justin: Allie, Allie, Allie, here is a quick illustration. I know I'm going off the the script here, and your readers would love this because if you could see me, you'd probably kick me in my shins right now because I'm just I'm just passionate about this. ATP, right? So all your readers, all your all your folks know ATP testing. So I stopped at a gas station en route to a an appointment. And I the gas pump handle was nasty. It felt so gross and net s just for fun, because I'm a weirdo and infection control guru as as you are as are you. ATP'd and and the gas pump handle read one hundred thousand RLUs. On the particular luminometer I was using, that's pretty high, it's kind of gross. Ally: Mm, mm-hmm. Justin: About an hour later, I'm in a sales call and I'm in the OR talking to a surgical director. And I said, hey, let's go test a couple of your lead tech or your main provider, your busiest surgeon. And so we ATP right in front of her live stream, you know, 900,000. And so she's like, Well, is that bad? And I'm like, Well, here's my cell phone picture. I go, it's nine times worse than a gas pump handle. I go, and it's in a Ally: my gosh. Justin: sterile environment in cases every day. Ally: Wow. Justin: Ha ha ha. Ally: I mean that that had to be, I'm sure they were just shocked. Justin: Just you know, well really can can can we do some more? Can we test some more? And I'm like, listen, I'm not here to be the bad guy. I I never ever wanted to be the whistleblower, bad guy. I wanted to be the solution to say, Hey, we can do better. Like a hundred thousand patients die every year of HAIs. Like, this is my family, your family, this is our friends. Like, this is why you and I are in this role here, like. Sure, we have to put bread on the table and and provide for our families, but man, when you look at what we spend per capita i in the US in healthcare, wow, let's keep driving our quality numbers higher, you know? Ally: Totally in it, it benefits everyone. I I'm not a business-minded person per se, but you know, I'm always more focused on patient outcomes. But ultimately, if for anyone listening, if there is a conversation about money, it ultimately does you bring money back to the organization because the cost of HAIs are so high, whether it's CLABSI CAUTI SSIs, which can Justin: Yes. Ally: I I don't like having to resort to that, but a lot of times that is a conversation that has to be had. Justin: Yeah. yeah. Yeah, I I'm like you. I I I try not to dive into the the the HAI financial aspect, but you know, man, I have a good friend for a long time now. He's had MRSA for ten plus years. And he had a total hip done and he got MRSA and he's had multiple surgeries, multiple procedures, multiple readmissions. He's had to say goodbye to his family a couple of times because they thought he was gonna die. And I'm just like, look, man, guys, we can do better. We we have the resources, Ally: Yeah. Justin: we have the ability. Let's hey, let's work collaboratively, you know, with amongst different departments. And infection control helps drive this conversation. And so for us, when I developed this cleaning process, you know, my background was surgery. I was not an IP. I was lucky to have two 30 year tenured IP directors to coach me. What wonderful women who guided me, coached me, because they said, yes, this has always been a concern of ours. And so when people give me the whole it's not required, it's not, I'm like, time out, man. This is this is infection. This is staff and patient safety. And if everyone is quietly acknowledging inside the hospital. We need to be doing better, then let's do it. It's achievable. I mean, let's go, you know? Ally: Yeah, absolutely. I and I love hearing about collaboration. I think it's so important and it's it speaks to you knowing what's going on in that OR space, what's going on in that room, and IP being able to come in and be like, okay, like let's meet in the middle. What would you do with this? Is this a barrier here? How can we make this work so everyone a better, cleaner environment. So I think that's that's awesome. And I know I think in infection control. think we're we're trying to change to more infection prevention and I think this is a great a great way to look at that. We're we're trying to prevent before we have to control anything. Justin: And and and and Allie, just for you and for your readers, I apologize if I use the improper language or terminology there. Ally: No, no, not at all. Justin: I'm an old guy, and so I in back in my early days it was infection control and I know we're transitioning to infection prevention. So I apologize if that was Ally: No, not at all. it's something that we talk about actively. I think a lot of us are still I think it's still something that we're trying to to promote. I you know, COVID was tough. we were controlling for so long recently with COVID and managing that pandemic that Justin: Ha ha ha. Ally: kind of the communications were now starting to get to a place where we can actually think about preventing again, which is nice. Yeah, we'll take it. Yeah. Justin: It is not yes. Well stated. Well well stated. Well stated. Ally: So I'm still not over what you saw between a gas station pump and the apron that was in the OR. I also think it's an interesting idea in my mind, lead aprons could easily kind of travel throughout a hospital or radiology setting. Do you ever like are you, do you think we do a good job of tracking? where those aprons go, where they end up, and have you seen any good examples of people having a really good schedule of cleaning set aprons? Justin: Yes. And so, you know, my my great question. And so my an answer to you is educational based, non-branded answer to you. But yes, it's crazy because think about this. Garments, they traverse the hospital. And so, you know, think of OR, you know, I I cut my teeth in the OR. And so I used to laugh at Anesthesiology. You know, I mean, we're rolling around, I got a bagel, I got a donut. You know, I'm going here, I'm going there, I'm sitting down here, I'm back in the break room, I'm doing whatever, Ally: Yeah. Justin: and I'm coming in, I'm coming out, and I'm like, whoa, timeout. You know, and even like as a early, early young OR rep, one time I was in the cafeteria, and radtech walks in wearing lead into the caf Ally: yeah. Justin: alley into the cafeteria, and it looked like you'd been shooting paintball, paintball guns at her, and she just was And I said, Hey, good morning, you how you doing? And she said, Not good. Case went long, and I said, I'm so sorry to hear that, you know. And and there she was filling up a soda in the cafeteria. And Allie, she goes, and she walks down the hallway, she hops in the elevator because she said, I got paged to go do a bedside x-ray. And so it's just the level of accidental neglect, I guess. I don't want to be a bad guy to hospitals. I just want hospitals to understand, wow, this is a concern. And so when you look at like the AORN, you know, from Denver, like they did a study in 2017. They surveyed 173 surgical texts. Half said we wear dirty lead every day. And then I think the other 60, I can send you the article, so I'm not misquoting. 67% said, Yeah, we really don't have a good protocol for cleaning. And the haunting part was an equal number of those folks said, we understand every day. X-ray garments come into contact with patients every day. And so it's like the data tells us you are you said biofilms earlier, you and I could talk biofilms for an hour. And so we know the garments are quietly carrying pathogens and they're also coming in contact with patients every shift. And so we haven't hit the wake up call yet to say, Whoa, okay, what are we gonna do about this? You know? Ally: Wow. Yeah, I I always I think I'd be fascinated but also scared to put like an air tag on a piece of equipment like that just to see where all it's been. I think it would be very eye opening, but also could be a little a little scary. Justin: Yes. heard and understood. I'm with you. Ally: Yeah. So I'm sure a lot of people listening know an IFU, the manufacturer's instruction for use. I'm curious for there's so many different companies that do the lead aprons. Is it pretty consistent their recommendations for cleaning and disinfection, or is it kind of all over the place? Justin: Allie, you're never gonna want to talk to me ever again because the level of direct answers I give you. But I'm just I'm too old and I've been doing this too long to pull any punches. So here's my lawyer approved, politically correct answer. I said bad joke. Listen, they Ally: Yeah. Justin: they make really okay, the folks that make garments, they understand how to make garments. And that's great, and that's what they do. And I've talked to them and I've questioned them and I've implored them since twenty thirteen. And so Ali in the early days, I would say, Hey, can you tell me I'm trying to develop this process? I want to develop a best practice cleaning process. What should I do? And they would say, Don't use alcohol, don't use bleach, you know, no No extreme heat, no extreme cold, don't fold them, don't crease them. They'd give me this list of do's and don'ts. And I'd say, Okay, wow, okay, well, what do I do then? And they would say, Ta-da. Here is the wipe that we sell that you should buy. And Ally: Sure. Justin: I read, Allie, I know, listen, but I read the wipe, I go, it's got bleach in it. I go, You Ally: stop. Justin: Allie, no, I go, you just told me no caustic chemicals. No corrosive chemicals. I go, no alcohol, no bleach. I go, and you want me to buy your wipe that you've private labeled that has bleach in it? Like, give me a break, man. And so Ally: Yeah. Justin: 20, I don't know, 2013 through probably 2015. I was pretty frustrated with the garment manufacturing companies because there's no consistency and there's no best practices and there's no recommendation. And so it's why I'm so loyal. To infection prevention. Because IP came alongside me and said, Hey, we're vendor neutral. We want the best. Let's just teach you. That's where I learned what cleaning was. That's where I learned, hey, Allie, here's the big misnomer. Holy bananas. The big misnomer between cleaning and disinfection. As you know. Okay, so IP says, hey. You can't disinfect a contaminated surface. That surface has to be cleaned first. You know, Ally: Yeah. Justin: those microorganisms have to be with the use of friction removed from the surface. And then you can disinfect. And so Allie, you and I can talk three log kills, six log kill ratios. We can talk dwell times. I I mean, and but it's IP is the one driving this conversation IP is the powerhouse in driving change. And so anytime I get a call with a new hospital network and surgery calls or radiology calls, I say, time out. Can we please have IP on the call with us? Ally: That's awesome. I'm sure I'm sure all of those IPs were thrilled. We just want a seat at the table. So I that's great. Yeah. Justin: Yes, yes. Ally: if we have any infection preventionist or frontline healthcare workers listening, what's one thing you would want them to take away kind of on this subject of proper cleaning disinfection of lead aprons? Justin: please be please be empowered and please be Wow, be proud of what you're doing. And and just what I mean there is Our my process, our I learned everything in the geez, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, from two wonderful 30 year tenured IP directors who taught me and were patient and patient because they were dealing with me, who taught me so much and just to see the level of passion and the level of care that IP has for their profession. Your voice from IP needs to be heard. You have a specialty, you have a skill set that other departments don't have. And they need to benefit from your skill set. I just I I would encourage IP. Man, we love you. We need you. Like be respectful, but please be bold and and stand up, man. my goodness, there's so many conversations that you need to be a part in. it just I get all kinds of fired up about this. Ally: Yeah, no, it's it's so true. And it always is good when you have diversity, when you have people coming at a situation with different perspectives, different backgrounds. I learned so much from my colleagues and people who work in different areas of the hospital. And I hope they feel the same about infection prevention. And I I do think there was kind of a time when IP was viewed as more of the police, kind of going in and just like pointing out things that weren't right. Justin: Yeah. Ally: But I do think the field has evolved a lot. and I think the prevention side of things has helped too. And the fact that we're all on the same team, we all want the same goal, you know, kind of learning from each other. Really, collaboration is so important. And I hope it continues to grow within IP working with other departments. And you were also kind of a patient yourself in regards to the ringworm that you got from the lead apron. Do you have any? You know, any thoughts on patients who are going into our healthcare system? Would you have any recommendations for them? Justin: Yeah, I mo most certainly. I've told people since, you know, so when I got a ringworm, you know, I asked the surgery director, Hey, what's the deal with this? You guys clean I don't know, man, leave me alone. I'm kinda short of staff or bam, go talk to radiology. Yeah, radiology, she was equally annoyed. And I'm like, man, so yeah, I I tell friends and family and patients, ask questions. You know, be your own advocate. You know? I had a friend recently whose son had an accident. They had to go in and get an x-ray, just general x-ray. And he goes, Hey man, they they put a lead apron over my kid and it was disgusting. And then they gave me a lead apron to and they told me just to he goes, one of the straps wasn't even he goes, so I kinda had to hold this lead apron up. He goes, So here's my kid getting an x ray. He goes, That thing was nasty. And so I just tell people just be respectful as all just be nice, be cool, be respectful, but ask questions. Hey, do the garments get cleaned here? You know, like what's what's how often? What record do you have? if I'm going in for a surgery or if someone is going for a case, you know what I tell all my friends, hey, check the check the complication rate, check the readmission rate, check the infection rate. And so my mom's had three surgeries in four years. I researched the surgeon. I looked at infection, I looked at complication readmission, and I chose a very small rural quiet hospital with the same provider due to those variables. So do your homework, do your research, you know, look at that, you know, just be your own advocate. Ally: to be an advocate for yourself can be really scary in these environments. I know it can be super intimidating. I did an episode recently called incision infection prevention, kind of talking about SSIs, because I had a friend whose mom. she had a friend who recently had surgery and experienced an SSI You know, it can be so intimidating to advocate for yourself, but it sounds like this is a great avenue to advocate for yourself, but also to advocate for your patience on making sure these garments are properly cleaned. They don't have any nicks in them, we don't see any issues when we're doing the look down before we put it on. Yeah. Justin: Yes. Yes, for sure. For sure. You know, as as a staff member, think about this. Allie, if if I'm coming into, you know, I just graduated school, I'm coming into Alley Memorial Hospital, and I'm coming in from my first job. I'm asking questions. Hey, listen, if I'm wearing lead, how's it getting cleaned? be respectful, be nice, be cordial. But ask some questions, protect yourself. Ally: I I loved your point of kind of starting new at a job because I think whenever you're first starting out or first, you know, hitting your field for the first time, you want to learn, you want all this education, you want to keep taking in information. So if anyone's listening and they want to learn more about lead apron cleaning and its importance as an infection prevention risk, do you have any recommendations of what to check out, any resources that listeners can check out? Justin: we've got references in forty five states now. But what I'll tell but hey, but what most of them will all tell you is we're not pushy, we're not salesy. We want the best for you. So Allie, if you have listeners who just want to understand more about how to protect themselves or what hey, what protocols look like or what cleaning standard yeah, I've got a a litany of non branded we even do a I do a CE approved educational presentation. Ally: that's great. That's great to hear if people are have the CIC certification, always looking for continuing education. So that's awesome. Justin: Yeah. This was built this was built really in conjunction or kind of led by in IP. Yes, we have pr we have protocols, we have presentations, we have quick sheets, fac I just but I just didn't want to be inappropriate on your platform by endorsing the business, but yes. Ally: No, no, it's totally fine. I I like to include links to every episode and we also post on social media. I have an Instagram at Culture Positive Pod, so we can post some of Justin: No. Ally: the resources that you have and maybe a link to your website if there's more that listeners can learn. Justin: Excellent. Yeah. For sure. I just would just want to be an advocate and a resource and not a pushy salesperson trying to, you know, it's not my style. You have a heart for people, and I do too. And I've been in sales and hospitals for twenty plus years. But because you and I have hearts for people, it's why we're doing what we're doing. Ally: it's always great to meet someone who has the same vision and goal of just trying to keep people safe and healthy and happy. So thank you so much for coming on. Justin: Sure, sure. Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure and many blessings to you and to all your listeners. Ally: Thank you so much. Alright, Thank you for listening to Culture Positive. If you have any questions or ideas for an episode, please send me an email at CulturePositive Pod at gmail.com. You can also Thank you for listening to Culture Positive. If you have any questi Nope. find me on Instagram at CulturePositive Pod. Please like, share, and review the podcast wherever you listen. References for the episode can be found in the notes. Infection prevention is about more than policies and protocols. It's about people. Until next time, stay curious, stay compassionate, and keep building a culture that's truly positive.