Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 308. Enneagram for Nonprofits: Part 4. External Dynamics - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Kishshana Palmer, CFRE

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308. Enneagram for Nonprofits: Part 4. External Dynamics - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Kishshana Palmer, CFRE · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:00
  Jonathan McCoy: Today's episode is sponsored by our friends at Feathr. Feathr helps nonprofits of all shapes and sizes build powerful campaigns that help you reach new fans and find new donors, wherever and whenever they're online. We love them because their tech makes creating and optimizing your paid ads strategy super simple.
• 0:14
  Jonathan McCoy: And no, yeah, they just happen to be amazing humans to sound like Feathr might be a fit for your organizatio? Learn more today Feathr.co. That's feather without the last e dot co or follow the link in our show notes.
• 0:31
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm Jon.
• 0:32
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:33
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
• 0:36
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:45
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:53
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 1:04
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started.
• 1:06
  Becky Endicott: Hey, Jon.
• 1:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, hey! How are you?
• 1:09
  Becky Endicott: We are back with the final Enneagram episode. Is anyone enjoying this as much as I am enjoying the Enneagram conversation? And I'm kind of sad that it's our last day. But I can't be entirely sad because we get to hang with our dear friend Kishshana Palmer, the leadership coach of our dreams, the relational coach of the future of fundraising and the nonprofit sector, and we're gonna bring it on home today.
• 1:35
  Becky Endicott: And we are talking about probably where the rubber meets the road. The question you've been asking yourself is, how does this apply to me actually hitting production, actually connecting to my donors? How do I translate this into a way that actually impacts my mission? So we are so jazzed to dive into that conversation with the one and only Kishshana Palmer Hello, my friend. Welcome back.
• 2:01
  Kishshana Palmer: Hello, hello.
• 2:01
  Becky Endicott: So today, we're really going to be diving into Enneagram and fundraising. So last week, Kishshana broke down, leveraging the Enneagram with internal team dynamics, we talked about strategy. We talked about examples. And today we're really going to be talking about how do we flex Enneagram with these external constituents? How does it affect donor dynamics, volunteer engagement, interaction with our boards, and so many other layers? So I think kind of the place I want to start Kish is talk about the Enneagram, and how it can be leveraged with external donor dynamics, like, give us the tone setting umbrella and tell us where you're gonna take this conversation today.
• 2:41
  Kishshana Palmer: So I always want my folks who are raising money to focus in on yourself. I think that there's tons of books and experts in blog posts, and all the things on focusing on donors. And as a donor myself, and as a fundraiser myself, I know how important it is to make sure we're focused out on other people. But this is an opportunity for you to understand how you work and how you show up so that you feel confident, you can be able to move into shift in real time when you're encountering others who are going to experience you because they're not going to all experience you the same. And so I think for me, like that's the framing of how I want to talk through that and actually have some examples of like how any one of these numbers can actually fundraise in real time in these nonprofit streets, so that you are able to actually navigate different types of personalities, and then different types of experiences that are happening to you as you raise money for your organizations.
• 3:40
  Jonathan McCoy: Oh, my gosh, I like I'm on the edge of my seat.
• 3:42
  Jonathan McCoy: I can't wait for you to go into this. But like, Can I ask something clarifying because, you know, I talked about not wanting to be typed last episode. And I think your explanation was so good about how it can be this internal dialogue as you're managing. I'm thinking about this in our donors that how can this be effective if you don't necessarily know somebody's number? Is it more looking for the cues of how you'd better communicate? Or some of these value driven conversations you're having as a fundraiser that's going to lift the veil on what really matters to them and how they show the see the world?
• 4:08
  Jonathan McCoy: Or how do you really even go about that?
• 4:12
  Kishshana Palmer: So I don't think you need to really worry about what other people's numbers are because that to feels like just way more information we already have to know where did Susie go to the school, what color does Bobby like? What club do they belong to and and why do you eat and what have you. I mean, there's so many things that we already have to know and then you're also like me I don't even bring paper and pen is a conversations. There's only about certain number of things I can memorize and then have to remember to write down in my car. Like I just who has the time, okay. And so what's most important is for you to know yourself. And I think one of the challenges that I find when I coach fundraisers is that you do not know yourself you are bumping into your own wall Hello. Like someone is not pulling you aside to be like get your act together. So know thyself, I think is really important and what that allows you to do is you're able to read a room better. I'll give you a quick example. And so if you are, for example, a four, right, so fours are my like creative, they're expressive. They're the folks who are like, really attuned to things, and they're introspective, they're passionate, you know, they're inspired all of those things, you bring in a whole heck of a lot of energy naturally, just you don't need coffee, because you are whole expressive experience, just coming into the world. And so if you know, that's how you show up in the world, like that's yet that is your primary Enneagram that you're already gonna bring them vitality, you're gonna bring that aliveness to any conversation, you could be talking about paper. For those folks, like, I'm not an environmental fundraisers for those of y'all who are really passionate about it, I can be coached. But let me tell you what I could not do get that level of enthusiasm for air, like I just don't have it, but a four will have it. Bees, trees, automobiles, leaves, people, it doesn't really matter, they will have it. If you're walking into a room, you've got to be able to read that room, you've got to know like, is the energy in this room on that vibration or do I need to bring it out? Is the donor potential donor and I'm operating with? Are they more stoic? Are they more calm? Where can I? Where can I infuse my passion there, where can I spark that for them? So it's really about understanding how you show up, so that you know how to modulate in real time with what that person is giving you. Are you drawing them out? Or are you joining them? And so really being able to know how you show up when you're at your highest.
• 6:34
  Kishshana Palmer: And I know we've talked about the last couple episodes, and when your stuff is in the basement, allows you in real time in conversation in donor so that same four, charismatic, passionate, you know, artistic bringing that vitality, energy, but you woke up and you had a bad day. So all of that is in a funk. What do you do? Well, I mean, first of all, it is a part of who you are. So you dig a little deeper. Hello, okay.
• 6:58
  Kishshana Palmer: Everybody should get acting one on one not to be fake. But because a part of what we do is performance. Right? We have to be trustworthy friend-adjacent, confidant-aligned, values-driven mission-activating. That is, if that is not an actor, I need an Emmy for the stuff that we need to do that listen, forget, Abbot Elementary and their Emmy nomination. Shout out to the fundraiser, who works for an organization when your budget is less than a million dollars, and you got to put it all on the line. So that four has to bring that energy difference. So you're going to bring that into conversation differently. And you're going to be watching and you're going to be understanding that body language, which is why it was so hard for so many fundraisers during the pandemic, who need that in person touch, contact. Because if you're not versed in reading people's eye twitching and eyebrow movement on camera, then you're not able to connect in that same way. So how do you think that sounded as an example of like how you can kind of like show up in a room and kind of figure it out?
• 7:59
  Becky Endicott: I feel like you just gave everybody the biggest exhale. Because something that I've worried about with this series is I didn't want to put any pressure on the nonprofit professional to know every single type, to know every single weakness, to know every single strength, and to feel that they had to be so well versed in it that boom, the second they hit the door of a donors office or get on the zoom with one of their donors, they have to read the room and know exactly what type they are. And I love that you brought it back to us. Because that is what the Enneagram is. It's an exploration of self and understanding yourself. And you're never going to fully know somebody, you could have a donor I think about I'm going through my rolodex of all my donors.
• 8:45
  Becky Endicott: They when I found out some of their Enneagram types, they were not at all what I thought they were when I walked in, because I think just as a fundraiser, I think I've shared this example on the podcast before, you know, one of my things that I used to do when I would walk into a prospect's office or want somebody in my portfolio is I would look around the first time and I would do an assessment to see you know, and I'm talking about like one second, two second scan of the room. What's important to this donor? I think just showing up as yourself and just listening and really leaning in knowing the types as well as you do. And asking really thoughtful questions is the biggest breakthrough that you can do, if you can start with knowing yourself.
• 9:25
  Becky Endicott: Brilliant, brilliant analogy.
• 9:28
  Kishshana Palmer: I love that.
• 9:28
  Kishshana Palmer: And so like for example, someone who is more excited like our ones right, who want to have much more like they have discipline about the way to do that. Write your questions down.
• 9:37
  Kishshana Palmer: My fours who are like, Oh, but I just want to be a flower. I want to go with the vibes Great, got notes down, you know, so like, it's just as a matter of really been able to know, what do I need to do to get to the outcome? What is the outcome of this interaction? What does success look like? Like you got to be able to name that and then how am I best positioning myself to get to that particular outcome? And your Enneagram will help you get there. Because it is the most uniquely you. It is most powerful to you and it'll be connective tissue. So for example, a four in that same donor conversation with nothing in the background, right? So you can see in my office, if you if you saw a wide pan view, lots of things that will tell you about me, but what if I was in my kitchen against the white wall?
• 10:26
  Kishshana Palmer: Right? A four would say, well, what are you passionate about these days? What's really grinding your gears and what's really lighting you up? The passion is what the four cares about. You can't see anything.
• 10:40
  Kishshana Palmer: You want to help the person help them help you get them talking about what actually lights their fire, or grinds your gears. Both things will give you clues to where they are in this particular moment. And does your organization's mission when it is activated address those things? Can help when those things? Can be motivated by those things?
• 11:03
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, taking a pause from this feel good conversation to share a quick story, Hope & A Future is a nonprofit that serves children in the Arizona foster care system. Last year, they wanted to grow donations during Giving Tuesday. The only problem Giving Tuesday was only one day away.
• 11:18
  Jonathan McCoy: Determined to seize the opportunity they reached out to our friends at Feathr with help from Feathr services Hope & A Future managed to launch a complete advertising campaign just in time. As a direct result they raised more than $500 on GivingTuesday. But that was just the beginning. Hope & A Future decided to follow up with an additional retargeting campaigns designed to increase donations and reengage previous donors.
• 11:39
  Jonathan McCoy: They raised over $32,000 With just a $4,000 ad spend.
• 11:43
  Jonathan McCoy: Nonprofits of all shapes and sizes are turning to Feathr to grow their campaigns with targeted digital ad tools that reach people whenever and wherever they're online. Use Feathr to grow your year in fundraisers learn more about their solutions for nonprofits at Feathr.co. That's feather without the last e dot co.
• 12:05
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, I think that's a perfect segue because we wanted to talk about fundraising this week, specifically, because it's on a lot of our minds, a lot of our priorities. And I just think even what you just said there is where we all want to get to have conversations that are more value driven. Deeper beyond surface, we're not talking about the weather, we're talking about like, what do you really care about, you know, what really does light you up that would lead to a place of transformation? So can you talk about how Enneagram can even help break down some of our limiting beliefs that we may have about fundraising, because, hello, I got a lot of those. So I want you to coach me here.
• 12:41
  Kishshana Palmer: Of course. So I'll use mine, for example. So I'm the person who's always trying to make sure that everybody else wins. And so I can tell you the number of conversations that I've come into that I'm like, How can I help you? And I'm not really getting to what I need. And so a limiting belief that I have is that I'm not I haven't earned the right to ask for help, or I haven't earned the support that I need. Because I haven't done enough for that other person.
• 13:08
  Kishshana Palmer: And so when I was an early fundraiser in my early years, I would overextend myself, I would over promise things to donors. I would be like, I remember when I lived in the bay, I had a young, small child. And I would say yes to meetings that were a full hour away at 7am. Listen, the before school, daycare don't even open until seven, Why am I trying to have meetings an hour from my house at seven? I learned later to say, I'd love to be able to meet you. I'm going to come to your office. I bring you a cup of coffee, at would 11:30 work for you. Why did I pick a cup of coffee because I don't have time to get caught up for lunch because lunch means traffic at two o'clock and I had to pick up this kid on time and I do not want her to be the last one getting picked up again. Coffee also means that some people like bring somebody coffee. Yes, because I'm coming to your office with a purpose. It only takes me 20 minutes to get to the bottom of that cup of coffee as soon as that thing is cold.
• 14:02
  Kishshana Palmer: Guess who is leaving? Having done something wonderful had a conversation the person is like oh my god, thank you. I didn't you know, whatever it is, we've had that conversation and I'm able to watch rollout. And so I'm able to be in that like supportive, helping we make sure you get what you need role and also do what I need. But when I'm not in that mode, and I'm in limiting beliefs, I'm trying to twist myself into a pretzel to get that person what I think they need they haven't even asked me for it without really making sure to go like is this gonna actually keep me healthy?
• 14:37
  Kishshana Palmer: Is this gonna help me get to the next thing I need to do? Is just going to actually not resent them later when if and when they say no if they say no if they give less if so dealing with that upfront, I think is really important around limited things.
• 14:51
  Kishshana Palmer: What are the things that are stopping you from being able to pursue the types of goals that you want to be able to pursue or the types of goals you said yes to when you got this job.
• 15:02
  Becky Endicott: It is such wise knowledge and I am here for it because it also puts you on an even playing field with the person that you're visiting with. There's no power dynamic, and I'm telling you, I'm guilty of the same thing. It's like whatever time the donor needed to meet, I will also twist myself into a pretzel to make it work. No, we can find a mutually beneficial time and still get this work done and still enjoy our coffee. So the thing that I loved about our conversation most last Friday was when you broke down some examples of how you have seen this play out from an external standpoint. Talk to us about some examples of how you've seen different numbers and different scenarios, you know, play out with donors in this way.
• 16:19
  Kishshana Palmer: Okay, so I'm going to do my heart type, which you know, those of your twos or threes and your fours, so shout out to all y'all in the house.
• 16:24
  Kishshana Palmer: Okay. I feel okay, so when you are talking about our fours to begin this conversation, so let's talk about my three. So my threes are the ones who you are first in your class, you are class president, that's why I was like, I used to be a three what has happened to me, me has happened to me. So this is a joke. So like, you know, in honor society in high school and your high school, you have to do community service. I've been doing community service and in service since I was a kid. And I just remember like asking, like, is there an award for the person who does the most like I just want to know, and guess what the reward was? A scholarship to college because I got to service on a scholarship to my undergrad. At that time, yes, years ago, but that was the first of two, three, schools in the nation who did it that year who introduced service learning and scholarship money. So yes, there was the first prize. So if you are a three, that means you're walking into interactions, you want the biggest gifts, you want the biggest donors, you want to shine, okay, you're like, if there's a goal to be had, I'm gonna hit it, and it is going to be glorious. And so the thing that you have to be mindful of when you walk into a donor conversation is that you don't have to dim, people think you have dim. But I think you need to have a different approach to your life, sometimes everybody don't need all your wattage all the time. And so folks who are threes, gotta really flip on the light switch of being a listener, that we don't need to know how many degrees you have, if you have a CFRE, how many accolades you had, what was the last gift you want? No one cares, okay, your donor is going to want you to really focus on how the work that you're going to do together, how the invitation you have into the organization, because you're holding the invitation, right?
• 18:09
  Kishshana Palmer: The donor is not holding the invitation, you have the dance card, how having that invitation is going to make them successful. That's how you're able to really turn that on. So are you able to help the donor see, help prospects see themselves as an actor in the story. And if you do that, then you are successful, thereby achieving your number one goal of being first I just want to say. I'm just saying, okay, so that's how I would do it if I was that now, if I was a five.
• 18:40
  Kishshana Palmer: So my fives who are my those are my analytical person, folks, those are my folks that are in their head doesn't my head types, your you know, some people might call you detached.
• 18:48
  Kishshana Palmer: So it's also self sufficient, you know, find a way or make one, you need your own space. So those are my folks who tend to float to development operations, fundraising operations, prospecting, grant writing, etc.
• 19:05
  Kishshana Palmer: But if you find yourself in a major gift, frontline fundraising type of role, and that is who you are as a human, it means that you are going to need a lot of data to drive what you do. And you're also going to have to synthesize that, your helper, your helpmate is going to need to be somebody who's a good storyteller. So that you can humanize the data, even though data is stories themselves, okay? Then you're going to need to make sure that you're not doing back to back donor visits, okay? You know why? Because you do not want to people that much. And so I need you to just let it go. So there needs to be breaks, downtime, time for assessment and refinement before you move out and do it again. And so if you find yourself winded and you're exhausted, the probability, if I looked at your calendar is you are doing too many back to back things with donors, and it's going to show and so in your interaction with donors in your style, you're going to want to present the facts and the figures. And so I want you to be paying attention very early in your prospecting conversations that if you align yourself with prospects who like facts and figures, yeah, go together.
• 20:07
  Kishshana Palmer: Yeah, if you want if you and your prospect, early prospect conversations, you get the big storytellers and so forth, unless you were the only fundraiser in your organization I'm going to get a hand that cookie off. You need to be able to support your partner on team and making sure that the decks are right and information is together so they are gathered when the information is requested, but that it may not be your person. So really being able to know like how you show up in real time, that's an example to me of how when you by yourself, try it like this, if this is happening to you, it might be this. So back to my initial sort of like thesis of you really got to know yourself.
• 20:47
  Kishshana Palmer: And you got to know how you show up when you were feeling most healthy and most powerful. And when you're tired, and when you've had enough of this mess, and right now, I think both you both say that we're all just a little bit tired and sick of it.
• 20:59
  Kishshana Palmer: So that's what I have for that one. Okay, let me see if I can do one more quick one. And then I think I wrap it. Okay, six. So these are our skeptical troubleshooters. Folks are loyal and reliable and responsive, prepared, inquisitive. Also, are you fact checking everything.
• 21:15
  Kishshana Palmer: So, in your fundraising style, you might struggle with getting off the starting block, you want to have more information before you make that first phone call, you want to have more information before you present that proposal to that donor, you want to have more information from them before you make that ask. And for you, I would say you already have enough. Because in your natural strength area, you already come into the situation way prepared. And so if you find yourself going, if I could just find, say, do, hear, stop right there. Ask it's time to the ask. It's time to be asked. Let's go ahead and do it.
• 21:51
  Kishshana Palmer: And if you're in conversations with donors, you're going to be most thrown off by the donors.
• 21:59
  Kishshana Palmer: Have you ever had like a first time like a prospect, right? And you think you're going to have an introductory sort of you get to know you conversation you feel in the mouth? This is a coffee date, okay? Like we are not at dinner, dancing, and the show. And they're like, Well, what do you want? And so knowing that, that might be something that could happen. If you are showing up in the world as a six then what I would say is always have your three slide ask in your back pocket. What's the three slide ask? What's the biggest thing that we care about? Here are two or three ways that how we care about shows up right now in our work.
• 22:33
  Kishshana Palmer: Here's how you can plug in, and then be able to say, and since you put since you asked, I typically don't ask new donors for a gift on our first conversation. Because I really want to know about you. Those type of donors will say, I don't care all that, what do you want?
• 22:54
  Kishshana Palmer: Make that number real good. Or you could say, well, I see this as an introductory conversation.
• 23:01
  Kishshana Palmer: So if I were to ask you for something today, I want you to know that I'm going to come back and ask you for more later.
• 23:07
  Kishshana Palmer: Ooh Bold.
• 23:10
  Jonathan McCoy: You're so good at this.
• 23:11
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, so good.
• 23:12
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean that, that advice to the three part, I mean, everybody should have that in their tool belt, you know, not just six, it's like all of us need that ready to go.
• 23:19
  Kishshana Palmer: Yeah, ready to go. I mean, that that is the story of my life, just and I do it in three , because we're grownups. And do we really remember more than three things at a time. So that's how I would approach that. So those are some of the ways that I would like, as I can see how your Enneagram number really expresses itself, both for yourself, how you can prepare, how you can engage, how you can right set in conversation. And I'm sure I could do more. But those are just a couple of examples of what I what I would think could work.
• 23:46
  Jonathan McCoy: Kish I mean, just mind blown, you're so gifted this and we were kind of riffing after the last recording, because you have such a gift to be able to see people and make them feel valued at the same time. So thank you for all those examples. And the way you've showed up with this, we got to bring down to the one good thing. Yeah, that's how we roll this out. What's one thing we could walk away as we think about these external dynamics that people outside of our organization? What's our one takeaway from today?
• 24:09
  Kishshana Palmer: So the thing that I want you to take away from today is that at the end of the day, we want to be connected. Except for the curmudgeons who really don't like people, for real for real.
• 24:17
  Kishshana Palmer: But almost all of us want to be connected. And so the power in your Enneagram is in how you are able to plug into the fabric of the people who you connect with.
• 24:29
  Kishshana Palmer: And so the one thing I want you to think about is, Be awake, be present. When you go into your interactions with prospects with donors, when you sit down to write a grant, when you pick up the phone to talk to someone be present, because everywhere you go, my friend, there you are.
• 24:49
  Becky Endicott: I mean, it just comes back to one, I feel like every time you're in our house, I feel so cared for. And I feel like that's the vibe that you give is there's an empowerment component. There is an exhale component. And there is so much here that I feel like is rife for this moment. And I don't even think you have to be a leader. We've talked a lot about leaders. But if you are somebody who is working through all the stuff on the frontline, there is a lot to be learned here about your manager, about your donors, about yourself about your colleagues. And so I hope this has been incredibly helpful for everyone. And if you're someone who probably like me five years ago, who would have heard had this conversation and said, who is this human being? And how can I hire her to work with my teams, Kish, give everybody the hookups on how they can find you. And talk about the best ways that you work with teams and where they can find you.
• 25:48
  Kishshana Palmer: Absolutely. So you can always find me on all socials at Kishshana Palmer, you can visit my website KishshanaCo.com. I said, I think I mentioned this last week, that fun trick K I S H S will get you to me. And so but it's KishshanaCo.com. And if you are listening to this, and you're thinking to yourself, self, I have had enough of this mess, I'm tired, I need to reset. I need to like just kind of restart the engine. And I'm going to invite you to join me in Jamaica, September 29 through October 2, for The Rooted Retreat. This is my retreat for women who are doing social good, who are doing good. And this is going to be an opportunity for you to step back, it's a long weekend, y'all Thursday to Sunday so that you're able to reset, you're able to regroup, we're gonna have facilitators leveraging Enneagram leveraging different tools to be able to really access and think through how to show up powerfully and finish the year strong and go into 2023. So you can visit therootedretreat.com so that you can join us and it is going to be a fantastic, transformative time. And for those of y'all who are studying for your CFRE every class session and course we have for The Rooted Retreat is CFRE approved.
• 27:05
  Jonathan McCoy: I feel so appreciative that you shared your time and your wisdom and your heart with us.
• 27:10
  Kishshana Palmer: Always
• 27:11
  Jonathan McCoy: Thank you. This has been so good.
• 27:13
  Kishshana Palmer: Thank you
• 27:13
  Jonathan McCoy: What a way to round out this series. It's just been such
• 27:15
  Kishshana Palmer: awesome series!
• 27:17
  Jonathan McCoy: Bye my friend.
• 27:17
  Jonathan McCoy: Thank you.
• 27:19
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here.
• 27:21
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• 27:52
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