Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 22, Season 2: When the Spark Fades: Healing Sex, Shame, and Connection After Kids with special guest Dr. Rebecca Eudy

Transcript

Episode 22, Season 2: When the Spark Fades: Healing Sex, Shame, and Connection After Kids with special guest Dr. Rebecca Eudy · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Raina Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hnsley, the owner,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: founder and CEO of the Love Doc relationship coaching Services
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and the Love Doc Podcast. Hello, Hey, how are you?
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I am doing pretty good given the week that I've had.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We both we both kind of had a crazy week
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: we did.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: And it was just yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, but
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: I'm good.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I am too. And we're super excited for
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: our guests today, doctor Rebecca Uti. She is a certified
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: six therapist. Rebecca, We are so happy to have you.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: You know, just tell us a little bit about yourself
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: initially and then we'll get into like the really good stuff.
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. I
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: am I'm really excited to be here talking to you guys.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I work mostly with couples. I'm based in
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: the Boston area and I have a private practice, a
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: clinical practice. And you know, this this book that I've
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: just written that we're going to be talking about today,
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: really grew out of this clinical practice. So couples would
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: come in and I would hear the same thing over
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: and over and over again, and so that's sort of
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: where this this, this, this work, what we're going to
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: be talking about today. It's really informed by this this
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: clinical practice. I've seen it a million times. I'm sure
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: that you have as well, Like this is.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: See a lot of this is yeah, yeah, so relevant.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: So tell us first off, you have a book that's
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: being released this month in October. This week actually is
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: when your book will drop, and just tell us a
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: little bit about it, because it's a very very interesting
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: topic that I think will be extremely valuable to our listeners.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Just reading introduction, I'm already like, can I'm intrigued.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, you guys are too kind. It's certainly been a
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: labor of love. And so the title of the book
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: is called Parents in Love, A Guide to Great Sex
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: after Kids. And as a parent myself, i have two kids.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: You know this. It's not only out of the clinical practice,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: but it's also out of my own experience. You know,
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  Speaker 4: it's really really hard to maintain any sort of a relationship,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: let alone a sex life after kids because things just
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: are so busy. There's so much going on. You're taking
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: care of these little humans that have endless needs, and
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: it's like someone's always literally wedging themselves between you. And
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: that's not even counting all of the scheduling and the
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: calendar challenges. So this, you know, the book is really
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: about at its heart, at about desired differences and how
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: you can work with that. And those desire differences are
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: inevitable in a long term relationship, whether you have kids
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: or not. That it's just the couple that does never
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: has a difference in desire is a rare couple.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Indeed, Yeah, yeah, I agree. And even as I was
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: reading it, I was like, uh huh, yep, relatable.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: Check.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And so I'm a newlywed and I'm married later in life.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Now I have a child, but he's almost nineteen years
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: old from a previous relationship. And so even as a
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: newlywed and you know, obviously we're in our forties, we're
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: still struggling, right, Like, so no children unless you count
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: animals and pets, which can be it's all you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: headache at times, but like there's still you know, some
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: desire issues or imbalance, I would say, at times. And
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: so you know, I find it interesting that it kind
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: of and you even mentioned this in the book in
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: the beginning. It's not just for parents per se, It's
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: really just for all couples.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's right.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you have you have a three step
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: process that you really use in your practice. So tell
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: us a little bit more about that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, So the three step practice is really informed
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  Speaker 4: by the method that I use a lot with couples,
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  Speaker 4: which is emotionally focused therapy, which is an attachment based method.
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  Speaker 4: And so the first step is to notice. So in
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: EFT we talk about the cycle, which is really this
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: very predictable, really familiar way you get stuck it. You know,
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: it sort of feels really hellish when you're stuck here.
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  Speaker 4: You're like, I can't believe we're back here. It feels
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: so familiar. It touches on all of our deep attachment wounds,
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  Speaker 4: you know, these sort of like big red buttons that
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: our partner probably didn't install, but they're so good at pushing.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 4: It's things like unseen, unlovable, uh, you know, not good enough,
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  Speaker 4: like those really deep attachment longings or fears. And so
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  Speaker 4: noticing where you get stuck, noticing what happens for you
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  Speaker 4: that's predictable again and again, and we often like to
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  Speaker 4: blame our partners for this. You make me feel this way,
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  Speaker 4: and it's true, they do, but it's also our responsibility
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  Speaker 4: to notice if there's a pattern in the way that
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: our partner is making us feel. Chances are that pattern
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: probably starts with us some sensitivity that we have, and
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  Speaker 4: it's not your fault, just to be clear, right, responsibility
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  Speaker 4: is different than.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Fault, absolutely right, And so I think so the next
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: so notice is first notice is number one, and then
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: second is own, which essentially is just taking accountability, yes,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: and then third is the connection. And so elaborate a
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: little bit more on that, because I think it's sometimes
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  Speaker 1: hard when because resentment, if we're talking about resentment, which
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I think comes into play a lot in these situations,
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  Speaker 1: is when you try to connect after these really hard
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: things that you're dealing with. Because sex is a hard
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: thing to talk about, it's hard to come back and connect.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: So how do you walk your patients through this or clients?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so connect doesn't necessarily mean have sex. It can
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  Speaker 4: certainly that can work for some couples, But connect really
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: is it can be as simple as connecting over while
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  Speaker 4: we really got stuck there. I felt really bad and
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: so did you.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I usually see that in a
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: dynamic where there's attachment insecurities, especially some of the ones
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: that oppose each other so painfully, like the fearful avoidant
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: and the dismissive avoidant, and they're very, very stuck in
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  Speaker 2: a very predictable cycle that just feels like they're on
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: a merry go round of frustration, and both partners are
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: really hurting. And when I see partners in the beginning,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: most of the time they have no idea how much
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the other person is really hurting. That's just not they're
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: so stuck in their own pain and they feel so
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: justified and their reactions that they're having to their partner,
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  Speaker 2: and a lot of what they view their partner's behavior
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: through is their attachment filter bias. Right, So, oh, the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: fearful avoidance looking at the dismissive avoidant and thinking, well,
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  Speaker 2: you just must not love me, you don't care as
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: much as I do in this relationship, and the dismissive avoidance,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: like you're always criticizing me, you're always attacking me, when really,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the fearful avoidant just feels like I'm trying
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  Speaker 2: to share how I feel, but it comes off as
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  Speaker 2: an attack. And then we get the conflict cycle, and
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: then both people eventually in the relationship end up shutting
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: down into their avoidance, and then we have two very
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: very disconnected people. If this has been going on for
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: a really long time. So when you see couples that
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: are in a really disconnected place, how do you handle
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: that differently than say a couple who is just starting
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: to realize that they're getting stuck and they come in
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: for early intervention. How do you handle those clients that
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: are that have been in that pattern for a really
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: long time.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's really similar, actually, It just when you have
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: someone who's been stuck in the pattern for a really
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: long time, there are resentments that have built over time,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: so we just have to sort of wade through those.
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  Speaker 4: So it might take longer to get to the point
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  Speaker 4: where they're able to recognize you're hurting so much. On
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: the top, it might look like you don't care about me.
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  Speaker 4: That's how your protective behavior makes me feel. But I
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  Speaker 4: understand actually for you that underneath you're in really deep pain.
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  Speaker 4: And people wouldn't get stuck in the cycle if they
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  Speaker 4: didn't really care about each other. So that's usually where
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  Speaker 4: I start, is by highlighting you're here because you care.
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  Speaker 4: It wouldn't hurt so much if you didn't care. And
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  Speaker 4: so once we can kind of get people to recognize, wow,
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: my partner, I see this behavior that I don't like.
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: That's really painful for me. And you know what, they
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: never have to like it. They can go through their
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: entire life with this person and be like, I hate
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  Speaker 4: when you do that. That's fine. But what we want
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  Speaker 4: to try to do is to by recognizing the care
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  Speaker 4: and the pain underneath each person's behaviors, seeing them in
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: a little.
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  Speaker 1: Bit of a different light, right, yeah, And I want
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  Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the patterns because even
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: as I was reading the first you know excert, the
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: pattern that you talked about with the very first couple
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  Speaker 1: was just so relatable, right where he you know, he
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  Speaker 1: slaps her on the ass and like, you know, she's
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: like this doesn't turn me on, right, But then he's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I can't help, but I just want to touch you
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  Speaker 1: so much, and then you know the whole like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I'm touched all day by the kids and you know,
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  Speaker 1: and then you gave the example and I'll let you
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  Speaker 1: kind of elaborate on it, but even when you gave
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the example of what if he did this instead and
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: then how would that make you feel? And I was
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: just like, WHOA, yes, yes, that's what a woman needs, right,
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  Speaker 1: So I'll let you elaborate on that, because I found
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  Speaker 1: that extremely relatable.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, so, first of all, like we've been talking
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  Speaker 4: a little bit about the emotional cycle, but these cycles,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: they they're both emotional and sexual, and so a lot
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  Speaker 4: of times what you have is somebody who might be
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: emotionally avoidant, but more of the sexual pursuer, so they
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: may be initiating more in the bedroom. And you know,
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: it's pretty common that this might split along gender lines
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  Speaker 4: in a heterosexual couple, so it's more common that men
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  Speaker 4: have a little bit more language around initiating sexually and
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: they struggle a bit more with initiating emotional conversations. And
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  Speaker 4: you know, we I'm not sure what the reason is
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  Speaker 4: for that. My hypothesis would be that it's probably conditioning
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: that that boys and men don't get as much emotional
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  Speaker 4: coaching as as women do. But that's sort of a differtation.
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  Speaker 2: I do. I think that it's moderated by attachment. So
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  Speaker 2: I think you know the fact that most dismissive not all,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: but a large majority of dismissive avoidant individuals are men,
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  Speaker 2: and that society does have a conditioning factor role that
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  Speaker 2: is played where you know, men are supposed to be
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: more stoic and not be is in touch with their feelings.
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  Speaker 2: And then the cultural sort of shame aspect around sex
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  Speaker 2: with women. I think it plays a role as well,
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  Speaker 2: that women are not supposed to be as sexual or
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: is sexually open, and where it's sort of glorified. Sometimes
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: with men in culture it makes them feel like it's
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: more appropriate. And what I've found with dismissive avoidance in
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: particular is where they struggle with emotional vulnerability. A lot
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of times, their sexuality is the one place they can
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: feel connected and fulfilled and vulnerable with their partner, and
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: so it's sort of of minimizes the impact of them
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: not being able to be emotionally vulnerable with their partner.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: But then if their partner really needs emotional vulnerability, and
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: usually they do, then it becomes an issue that there's
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: no emotional safety in this relationship. Therefore, I, as the woman,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: cannot feel vulnerable sexually with you. I don't feel like
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I can open myself up sexually to you because I
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: am so closed off because of the lack of emotional
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: vulnerability and safety.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and i'd say that's a pattern you I.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: See that seeing constantly a lot as well. I'd love
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: for you to just elaborate on that.
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So what you're talking about that you
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: really nail. I mean, that was such a beautiful like
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: summary of how it can happen. Is so I would
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: call that a crisscross cycle. So you have an emotional
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: cycle where one person is the emotional pursuer. So they're
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: going and they're saying, hey, you did this thing, I
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: didn't like that, or you make me feel this way.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: That can feel like to the emotional withdrawer like they're blaming,
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: like they're criticizing, but really they're reaching for connection. That
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: blame that criticism. It's reaching for connection. Now it has
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: a twist, you know, it doesn't always feel good, it
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: doesn't always come out the way that we intend it,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: but it's reaching for connection and the same thing. So
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: then when you have a couple where the emotional the
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: person who's the emotional pursuer outside the bedroom is the
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: sexual withdrawer, oftentimes what they end up saying is, you know,
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: if you were more emotionally available, I would feel like
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: having sex more, and the sexual pursuer says, well, if
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: we had sex more, I would feel more emotionally available,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: and so you get to sort of a stalemate. So
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: that's one option, and to be honest, like as difficult
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: as that is, you know, when I see couples coming in,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: both of them have a lot of resentment around that
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: because they're not feeling like they're getting their needs met.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: But it's balanced. They're each pursuing and they're each withdrawing,
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and so that's easy to sort of draw parallels there.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: One of the cycles that can also happen is when
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: you have sort of an alignment. So somebody is both
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: a sexual pursuer and an emotional pursuer and their partner
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: is very deeply withdrawn, both sexually and emotionally, and that
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: can be really challenging to work with because it's a
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: bit less balanced, like their roles are very entrenched, and
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: so that can be challenging.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I see that in the again the fearful
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: avoidant dismissive avoidant dynamic, when the fearful avoidant has shut
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: down out of hopelessness, and then it activates the DA's
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: sense of loss a little bit, which detriggers them some.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So they feel a little bit more like in the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: beginning of a relationship when they can be really vulnerable,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: because it's a little bit more low stakes.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Their partner kind of giving them that space.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: It just triggers that feeling of loss, which makes them
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: kick up.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Their emotional pursual a little bit more.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Not like somebody with anxious attachment would, but a little bit.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And then they are seeing their fearful avoidant partner who
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: was once very much a pursuer in both areas, just
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: completely cold because of the hopelessness, and they're behind that
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: wall of pain that the fearful avoidant can can have.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And I know the dismissive avoidant too, sometimes feels like
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: when they're pressured. And this is one thing I wanted
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: to ask about too, like the correlation between pressure and desire,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and we were actually talking about this on the way here,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: and how when a partner feels pressured, it diminishes the desire.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes specifically with the dismissive avoidant, it
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: just feels like another.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Task, another task, but they have shoe.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Right, another expectation that they have.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: So when I see the dab and the one that's
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: the withdrawer sexually. It usual They usually almost always tell
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: me it just feels like another expectation.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: It just feels like another pressure.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And are do you feel like I have you know,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: more with my work that I can cope with or
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: outside stressors or whatever. And so it can be interesting
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: how the dynamic shows up in the different attachments, but
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: it's not always super consistent. Yeah right, Yes, it depends
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: on the other dynamics and the relationship and how long
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: these negative cycles have been going on and where everybody
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: ends up. So, yeah, talk to us a little bit
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: about pressure, because I do hear that a lot of swallow.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I get pressured all the time, and that just makes
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: me want to do it less.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: And well, that's the first thing that I do when
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: I work with a couple is we have to take
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: the pressure off. Because you're absolutely right, pressure kills desire,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: obligation and pressure. And so what you have when you
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: have a couple that's in this pattern of having sex
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: because there's entitlement and obligation and pressure, is that you
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: have obligation sex. And so this looks like, oh, well,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: if I don't have sex with my partner, they're going
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: to be upset. They're going to be They're gonna be,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: you know, sad. I don't want that for them. I
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: don't want that for me. So I'm gonna go ahead
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: and have sex with them, and then it sort of
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: checks off the list. And I often hear people talking
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: about like, Okay, now that's over. You know, maybe I've
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: got a little breathing room for like a week or
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: two weeks until they start to get kind of antsy again,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: and then you're back in the same cycle. But this
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: is not satisfying for anybody, even the higher desire partner.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: They are not getting the kind of connection that they want.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: Because the thing is is when we talk about sex, like,
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: of course people want sex because it feels good. Well,
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: they if sex feels good, they want sex, right, Like,
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: if you're having bad sex, you're not gonna want that sex.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: But but you know, if it's just about how it
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: feels or just about the orgasm, you would just masturbate, right,
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: And so it's about more than just that. It's about connection.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: It's about feeling desired, it's about being close to another person.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: And so when the sex is just done out of
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: obligation and there's this vibe of like, just get it
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: over with. Then that's really not satisfying even for the
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: high desire partner who's initiating sex, and it really kills
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: the desire of the person who maybe is lower desire.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's guilt on the higher desire end
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: as well. They're like, Okay, well, I feel like I'm
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: just getting my I don't know if you know anything
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: about my story, but you know, my ex husband and
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: I had a really bad, abusive relationship. There's a lot
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: of infidelity. I ended up shutting down sexually to an
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: extreme extent. And then, you know, I was always afraid
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: he would keep cheating on me, so I would do
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: it out of obligation. And then he, you know, I,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: in my dysfunction, was like, well, you should be thankful
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: for that, right, Like you should be thankful that that
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: I did this because I really don't want to. But
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize at the time how kind of demoralizing
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: that felt for him, how he felt hopeless and felt
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: like guilt, some somewhat guilty, I think, or maybe he didn't,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but it came across as maybe he did.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And he used to call it charity. Ass giving me
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: charity ass.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: Nobody wants to be a charity case.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: No, No, it doesn't.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: There's no pleasure in it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: There's no there's just no. I just for so long.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I I mean, I just said, well, how could I
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: ever feel safe to have sex with you when you've
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: cheated on me so much and you've hurt me so much,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and you've lied to me so much, and you treat
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: me like crap. But at the end of the day,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I was choosing to stay in that marriage way longer
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: than I should have, and so I had some responsibility.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I just my view of it at that time was, well,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: you've treated me so bad, so you don't deserve anything. Yeah,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And it's like, at the end of the day, maybe
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: he deserved for me to just leave him instead of
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: putting him in that posiness.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Probably, yeah, he did. So I'm curious when you when
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you're with you know, your clients who have maybe there's
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: been some infidelity. How do you guys navigate that? Yeah,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: that's a whole nother bear.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: It's a whole nother bear. That's a great question. Yeah,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: talk to us about that.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, talk about attachment injury, right, Like that's
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: the ultimate and it's traumatic. It creates an actual trauma,
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: and people who are the betrayed partner, they have a
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: trauma response that looks a lot like PTSD. So it's
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: trauma work. A lot of times. What I see actually
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: when a couple comes to work with me immediately after
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: an affair is actually it's not uncommon for them to
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: be having a ton of sex because the betrayed partner,
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: if they've decided to stay, they really don't want their
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: partner to cheat again, and so they're like, I got
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: to keep them here. There's often like a lot of
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: emotional intensity, a lot of physical passion. It's just but
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: it's not sustainable, right, and it's hiding an insecurity where
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: it has to be safe enough. A lot of times,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: once we start processing the affair and once we start
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: creating more emotional safety, that sex often does dry up
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: because there's trauma because it's not safe because we have
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: to work through the infidelity first.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: It's a fond response. It's a fond response, that's exactly right.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a fawn response.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And it's sad because you know, we know that fawn
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: is like a form of functional freeze where both your
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: sympathetic system is activated and your dorsal vagel shutdown is activated.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: So it doesn't feel safe to run, it doesn't feel
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: safe to fight, it doesn't feel safe to do anything,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: but just collapse into pure vulnerability. And that makes you
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: feel captive, like you've been kidnapped.
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, absolutely, But you know one of the things
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: that that actually a lot of times when I work
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: with couples, they feel better, right. I mean it feels
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: terrible because there's so much intensity and they're in chaos
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: and its crisis and everything. But a lot of times
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: people will describe being so disconnected before the affair. Yeah,
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: and so they are deeply like collapsing into vulnerability. And
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: so sometimes when people come in and they're committed to
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: working on the relationship but there's been an affair, they
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: actually are feeling so much more connected than they have
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: in a really long time. But that can really hide
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: a lot. Like you're saying, it is that fond response
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: that you have to get through.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: And I think what I can help people identify is
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: that they're confusing the emotions and their body of fear
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: with excitement. So it's really a fear response, right. So
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: your heart's pounding, and you're you're feeling butterflies and you're
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you know, you feel the surge of adrenaline, but really
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: it's your body in fear. It's not that sexualist excitement
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: that you think it is for the betrayed partner, and
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of times they come into identifying that they
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: were operating from a base of fear after the initial betrayal,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: because they were traumatized.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: We want to take a moment to think our sponsor
• 23:06
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• 24:40
  Speaker 1: So thank you Cozier, Thank you Cozy Earth. And I
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: want to talk to this kind of leads into this,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: you know, sexual shame and when you bring sexual shame
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: into a partnership and how this plays a role. You know,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I can talk candidly. I have some sexual shame that
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I haven't fully processed through in my life. And so
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: this is this becomes an issue in my own marriage
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: where it's not that I don't desire sex, but I
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: have this feeling.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Again, we talked about this in the beginning, like females
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: may be a little bit more conditioned to think that
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: sex is bad, right, and then you add layers onto that,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: like I was a preacher's daughter and you know, so
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: then there's some religious shame around sex, and then you know,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you have your own personal experiences with sex as you
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: get into adulthood. And now that I'm in a healthy marriage,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: this is kind of what's ironic about it? Then it
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: rears its ugly head, right, And so I'm curious just
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to get your take on the role of sexual shame
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and really how to get through it and process it
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: so that it doesn't affect your sexual relationship with your partner.
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to normalize
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: because everybody has sexual shame. Yeah for sure, sure, I
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: mean there is not a person this sex is an
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: area of great taboo. Most most people grow up in
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: a house where it was not talked about, or certainly
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: not in a healthy way. And when something's not talked about,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: then it creates shame. And on top of that, the
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: messages that we see in movies, in porn, in uh,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: you know, in the mainstream media are really really deeply confusing,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: especially for women. Be sexy but not too sexy. You know,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: you know, you don't want to be a slut, you
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: don't want to be a cock teas, you don't want
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: to be I mean, there's so many it's like threading
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: this needle. And so I don't know a single person
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: who's gotten out of their childhood and out of life
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: without sexual shame. So that is a thank.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: You for saying that.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, thank you for validating that for us.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Because I grew up in a Catholic thing. You didn't
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: talk about it, it was it was just nobody said
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: anything about it. You just did You you'll figure it
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: out on your own, I guess, right.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And like when my parents found out I was sexually active,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: it was like the end of the world, right, it
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: was like, I mean, I'll never forget the blow up
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: that was my mother when she found out that I,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: you know, with my high school sweetheart, you know, had
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: found out that I was having sex. It was just
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: like this big terrible thing. And so you know, I
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: think that now that I'm older, and and again, thank
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: you so much for normalizing it, because even saying it sometimes,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: like just saying the words like I have sexual shame,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I can feel myself get a little dysregulated in my body.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But you just normalizing it just then just kind of
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: made me go, Okay, yeah, you're.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Right, because I think a lot of us just felt
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: like we were the only ones.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, everybody feels like, you know, the their catastrophe
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: is the only catastrophe, right, I mean, I think we
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: kind of make that mistake as human beings. But we're
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: a lot more relatable than we think, and we have
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: a lot more of the same experiences than we think.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: But you know, again back to just really processing the
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: shame and you know, getting through the shame. How do
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: you how do you guide your clients through that?
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: Well, I start by so, first of all, shame loves darkness.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: Shame thinks it's alone. You know, we got to expose
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: it to the light. So normalizing is the first step there. Like, hey, everybody,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: raise your hand if you've got sexual shame, Like every
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: hand if you're being honest, every hand in the house
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: is going to go up, all right. I think that,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: particularly with women. One of the places that I start
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: is actually talking about self pleasure, because women, you know,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: self pleasure and masturbation is normalized for boys and for men,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: but not for women, and so a lot of sexual
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: shame for women lies around how they look and how
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: they perform. It lies around whether they can please their
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: partner and whether they themselves are able to orgasm and
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: make their partner feel good about the pleasure that they've
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: given them. So women do not fake orgasms for themselves.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: That doesn't make us feel better, it makes we do
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: it for our partners, you know. So unless you, as
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: a woman, have been able to explore your own body
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: for your own pleasure and for your own desire, then
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: the sexual shame there is really So that's a place
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: that I start, And a lot of times talking about
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: self pleasure and talking about masturbation brings up so much
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: shame for people. And it's easier to work with that
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: on a solo level than it is on a couple level,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: and you can do it, you know, both ways. But
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: if someone's not willing to explore self pleasure, then there,
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: it's really going to be hard to have them unlock
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: their desire to be able to talk about what feels
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: good in their body, what brings them pleasure, and not
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: feel like there's something wrong with them or they're broken.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: KAA bad right, Like, there's this whole stigma of like
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: being bad, like if you do this, you're bad, or
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: if you're too sexual, you're bad. And so I know
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that's where I struggle, right because where internally I already
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: feel AKA bad and then when it goes when I
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: go to be a sexual being, then I'm like, oh,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you know, it's.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: Like that, it's subconscious.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the subconscious kind of says, oh, but you are bad,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and then it sends me into that default yeah, where I.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Just like, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: So a follow up question to that is, if someone
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: is really struggling because of shame or embarrassment or fear
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: of rejection with telling their partner here's what feels good
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: to me, how do you guide a client through that?
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Because I hear that a lot.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I actually, you know, when I work with couples, I
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: often work with them separately first and then we come
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: together for a couples work, just to give them some
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: foundational tools and skills so that the couple session doesn't
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: just derail right off the bat and kind of prepare
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: them for the couple's work. And I hear a lot
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: I really want to tell my partner what feels good
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to me, but I'm scared they'll reject me, or I'm
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: scared they'll be like, Oh, I wasn't giving you pleasure
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: all along, You're just now telling me this. How can
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: we have been together so long and you're just now
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: telling me that this is what has felt good. So
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: then the longer it goes on with them not having
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: told their partner what they really want, then there's like
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: almost a trust break there, like you couldn't trust me
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: in the beginning with this information. How do you break
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: it to them that, hey, actually, all along it would
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: have really felt good.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: If we did this thing.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: How do you deal with clients in guiding them to
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: be open and vulnerable and honest with their partners about
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: what feels good? And then if they haven't been honest
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: in their relationship, how can you help them reveal that without.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Anybody's feelings getting hurt?
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, anybody's feelings getting hurt in the process.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Or maybe they just get hurt and they have to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: deal with it.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Such a good question. So I start where people are.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: So if I have a couple who's coming in to
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: see me and they're talking pretty openly about sex already,
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: but there's certain things that they'd like more of or
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: like to communicate, then that's a place where you can,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: you know, work with that. I always recommend that people
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: start with the positive. So if your partner has done
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: something that's in the ballpark of what you like and
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: you want them to do more, Wow, that felt so
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: good when you did that. What did you do there?
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: That was amazing? You know, so really like giving some
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: positive reinforcement can increase behavior. So that's a couple who's
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: comfortable talking about sex reasonably so and then there's like
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: some tweaks that could make it more pleasurable. But if
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: you're not comfortable talking about sex at all, I wouldn't
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: recommend that someone go in and just say I want
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: you to do this, because the risk there is so huge.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: We want to stay within the zone of tolerance because
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: what can happen is if you ask for that and
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: whatever it is that you want and your partner's like,
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: oh uh, I don't know you know, they have like
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: not the perfect reaction, then that shame comes in and
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: it can just get so shut down. So I look
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: at what they're asking for outside the bedroom, and there's
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: some exercises that I have couples do that are touching exercises.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: So in sex therapy, most of you know, the assignments
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: that you would do that are touching assignments are done
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: outside the therapy room. You know, I would give a homework,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: but sometimes we practice in the therapy room with something
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: like a hand massage or face like and so the
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: exercise it's called sensate focus, and basically what it is
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: is it's a touching exercise that's all about communication. So
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: touching is just the vehicle for the communication. So if
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: your partners say, is giving you a massage, and you're like,
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: this feels terrible? Can I swear on here?
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Explicit?
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is already explicit.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: Yea, this feels terrible the way they're touching me, Oh
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: my god, my shinherds, I'm cold, whatever, And they don't
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: say anything. They're just silent the whole time is thanks
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: so much for the massage, honey. So what's going on there?
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: Do you ask for what you need in a non
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: sexual context. Are you comfortable telling your partner what feels
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: good or not good in your body or even in
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: your feelings, And so if the answer is no, then
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: we would start with something that held a lot less
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: shame than sex. Because if you're struggling to communicate what
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: you want and what you desire because you're a people pleaser,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: or because you feel shut down, or because you're afraid
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: that your partner is not going to be receptive to it,
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: maybe they haven't been in the past, and then we
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: layer sexual shame on top. That is not setting anybody
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: up for success. So I would start slow with people
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: to set them up for success.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, makes sense, makes perfect.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Communicating just about normal touch or non sexual touch, that's
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: really great.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I love that practice. Actually I might try that practice.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I do want to switch switch gears just a little
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: bit because I want to go back to your book
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: right and the overall meaning of what it's really about.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: And I think that one thing to bring up that
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I found really interesting in the initial excerpt is the
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: do no harm agreement, which I thought was really beautiful
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: and gosh, if every new parents had this clause that
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: they just sort of followed. I feel like it could
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: create so much more harmony in the beginning of becoming
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: new parents or parents to you know, the second or
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: third or even fourth child. So just elaborate a little
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: bit on that for our listeners.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I always suggest that new parents put this
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: Dono harm clause into effect, which essentially says, none of
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: us is going to be at our best. We're surviving
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: during this period of time. We're not thriving. Nobody's living
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: their best life. Nobody's you know, optimizing and maximizing and
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: doing all of the things that we think that we
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: should be doing. All the time. We're surviving because the
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: family is adjusting to introducing a new uh, you know,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: a new human into the family. And so for for
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: a lot of couples, this can happen actually even starting
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: with trying to get pregnant. So if someone struggle with fertility,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: this is it's really really stressful and their sex life
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: can take a huge hit, their emotional connection can really
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: take a huge hit. But certainly during pregnancy when there's
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: lots of hormones on board, and then during the like
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: immediately after baby is born, really up until birthing parent
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: is done breastfeeding, if they're breastfeeding and everybody's sleeping through
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: the night again, which can be a couple of years,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: you know. So I would say a minimum of a
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: year conception through a year, but for a lot of
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: people realistically, that's probably more like two or maybe even
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: three years.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Especially if you introduce a second child or a third child.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, so you're doing no harm. It resets
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: and resets and resets.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, but it's such a great clause. And
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: I mean it's simple, right, it's a simple concept. But
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: I think that if more parents, you know, and I
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: know not all children are planned, of course, right, so
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: you can't get this concept into your mind, you know,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes before you have a child, but even during you know, pregnancy,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: if couples had this clause and this concept in their mind,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: I just feel like wow, Like I think about all
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: the pain that maybe could have not happened in my
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: first relationship, you know, even though you know, my son
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: wasn't planned, Like if we'd had this idea around, Hey,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: we're not going to be our best selves for a while.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Let's conceptualize that and show each other some grace and
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: realize that there may not be a lot of sex,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: or there may not be a lot of date nights,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: there might not be a lot of trips away, right,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: and we might not have this alone time either, because
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: alone time as a parent and even finding sexual desire
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: I think is very important, and even outside of something
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: like masturbation, just like going to the gym, right, taking
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: care of yourself physically is something that I think really
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: comes into play with sexual desire, which you talk a
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: little bit about, and I don't know if you go
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: into that further in the book, but you know, you
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: can elaborate a little bit on that if you want to.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I elaborate a little bit more on the do
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: no harm clause just for our listeners who didn't get
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: a chance to read it yet, like we've read, like
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: when we've read it, so gone too, a little bit
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: more detail about that clause.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So where this is sort of born from is
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: that when you're not sleeping, when you're really pouring everything
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: that you have into this new human that's so demanding.
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: I want grace in that time. I need to remind
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: a as a new mom myself, I needed to constantly
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: be reminding myself. Okay, I don't have to be perfect.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: It can just be good enough. It doesn't have to
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: be you know, my best self all the time. And
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: so if I want that for myself and I'm struggling
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: to give that to myself, surely my partner needs that too.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: And so sometimes being able to kind of let and
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: sometimes it gets really sticky, you know, it's like everybody's
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: sleep deprive and you have this fight and it's like, ah,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: that escalated quickly. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. You know,
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: none of us are at our best. We're not at
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: our best. So yeah, and I think what you said
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: about the self care being really important for a desire,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: it's so true, so so true. I mean, ultimately, our
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: primary sexual partner is ourselves. You know, when when we're
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: being sexual with somebody, we are inviting somebody to join us,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: and they're inviting us to join them in this connection
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: that we're sharing together. And if you're not feeling good
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: in your own body, if you're feeling your nervous system
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: is totally out of whack, you know, you're either in
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: dorsal vagel shutdown or you're in sympathetic activation, then it's
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: really difficult to invite somebody into your experience, and in
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: order to get to that place, you really do need
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: to have self care time, whatever that means to you.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, I mean, we all
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: know that working out creates those good endorphins and you know,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: even in females, you get like, you know, a rush
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: of adrenaline in testosterone, you know, all things that really
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: come into play and the physical part of sex, you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: which we didn't really touch on, but I'm interested in
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: because I know that, you know, as middle aged women,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and I don't know how old you are, but you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: as middle age. As much as I hate to say,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: but it's a beautiful time, it's such a beautiful time.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: But it's a complex time, right, It's you know, for
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: me specifically, it's a time in my life where I'm
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: an emptinst and navigating that and navigating you know, looking
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: back on my parenting life and kind of mourning it,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: you know. And so there's all these emotions and there's
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: all these feelings, and then your hormones start to shift, right,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: and your hormones start to change. And so just to
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: wrap this all up, I do want to talk about
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: that because of course I know you're not a medical doctor.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: But I'm sure that this comes into play in your
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: practice where there are middle aged women who come in
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: and because of some physical component, the desire's not there too,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: which can't be ignored, right that I don't and I
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: don't want to pinpoint this on men because I think
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: sometimes it can happen with men too, obviously, but it's
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: like you gotta understand, guys, like this is tough, right,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: It's so tough, So just elaborate a little bit on
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: that too.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, hormone shifts are huge, like the even
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: so certainly perimenopause, the hormone shifts that happened around then
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: are profound and really deeply affect many areas of life,
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: including desire. And then in metopause also the hormone can
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: really shift in a way that makes desire and other
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: physical symptoms really can impact sexuality. But this is something
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: that women may or may not be really tuned into
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: even before perimenopause. I mean, I think that when perimenopause hits,
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: it's kind of like a slap across the face and
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: you sort of can't ignore it. But even within the
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: monthly cycle, if for a lot of women, if they're
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: paying attention. There's times that they feel much more desire
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: than others and it's hormonal. Yeah, yes, yeah, same with breastfeeding.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: A lot of times I hear from women, you know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: why do I have such low desire, Like I just
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: don't want to have sex at all? And then they
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: stop breastfeeding and they're like, oh, yeah, wow, that.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Was really.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: And so you know, I think that the postpartum hormones
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: are sort of more similar, not hormonally, but more similar
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: in terms of like a slap across the face to perimetopause.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: It's sort of difficult to ignore because they can be
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: so intense, But I think that those undeniably are very
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: They affect women a lot and desire a lot. But
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: often women do a pretty good job of validating what
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: they're going through, at least maybe after the fact of like, wow,
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: my hormones were really affecting me postpartum perimetopause, especially because
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of societal support for that.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, But I think in the just the menstrual cycle
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and the normal cycles that women go through, I'm not
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: sure that women do as good a job, or they're
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: supported in doing as good a job of really validating
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: there's going to be some weeks that I'm really open
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: and really having more desire, and there's other weeks that
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: I am really not into it at all, and I
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: think sometimes that day is just lost. But it's really important.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Oh so it is, and I can attest to it.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: The female nervous system is, you know, operates cyclically in
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: sync with our cycle. So our nervous system is very
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: much affected by our cycle. And female nervous systems are
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: inherently very different than male nervous systems, and so yes,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: we know ovulation might increase your desire. And then I
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: literally become a crazy person the day before I start
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: my period, right become I become almost mentally ill, and
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: it's kind of scary. And my husband knows, he's like,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: you're going to start your period tomorrow. Every month because
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I cry and like stuff I normally wouldn't cry about,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: and then I'm just very irritable, and I'm just there's
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: no way I want you to touch me.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I do not touch me.
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But the feelings are real, They're very real,
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: and it's so important. You know, there's a reason, there's
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: a biological reason that it's so helpful. Toidate like, I'm
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: not a crazy person. My hormones are yeah, really out
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: of what.
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: But it feels I.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Feel like a crazy person because I feel totally different
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: than the whole rest of the month. Just that day,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: sometimes two days before I'm about my to start my period.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Sometimes even the very first day of my period, I
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: will absolutely cry, and I will I'm a little bit
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: snippier with my husband, and he's very graceful about it,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: and I have to catch it and apologize and say
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: and he's like, I just know you're going to start
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: your period tomorrow. And I first was very offended by
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: that at the beginning of our relationship, but he was
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: not wrong.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: No ever, all right, and he's just taken inventory and.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: It's like, I know you so well that I know
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: it's about the day. It's it's the mood is here,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: It's okay, babe's do you predict?
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: It's Actually that has been really wonderful.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: It is it's validating right to have somebody to be like, look,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: you're just about to start your period.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: You're not crazy, Yeah, I know you are not this
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: way twenty nine other days out of the month, Well.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: I think that you know, just this whole conversation just
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: goes to show that your book, of course is going
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to be super exciting. I'm going to read it absolutely,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: But you're so much more than just you know, a
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: sex therapist for new parents or parents with young children.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Because we've talked about such a wide spectrum of topics
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: in this episode, and so I think it just goes
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to show your credibility, your knowledge, and we are just
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: honestly really thankful. I've I've been wanting to have a
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: sexologist on for months now, and I was just so
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: thrilled when I met you, know, I met you and
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: I came across you because I'd vetted a few, but
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: you were the one that I was like, No, she's it.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: She's the one. We're going to have doctor Rebecca on.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: I have one more question, Yeah, no, go ahead, more
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: question before I wrap up. So we have my husband
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: and I together have four children, and my ex husband
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: has passed and so he adopted my two girls. And
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: so we're just this beautiful, blended family with four kiddos
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: and six different sports, two crazy dogs, and our life
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: is bananas. And our challenge now isn't little kids anymore.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have next month two that'll be turning
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: eight and nine, nearly two days apart. It's hiding it
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: from the teenagers because you got to turn the TV
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: up really loud. You got to start the washing machine,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: you gotta you gotta do all the things because I'm
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: not about you know, my oldest daughter's bedrooms like connected
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: to her.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: They know what it is now, and they know what
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: it is, and really.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, little kids they're like, oh, the TVs each other,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: you know. But now it's like now it's it's not
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: it's not about little kids interrupting you. It's about the
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: teenagers being freaked out if they were to think that
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: that's what you're doing. So, how do you help people
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: with older children like navigate that?
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: It's a great question, It is a good question.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think two things. One, you're doing all
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: the things right, like put a lock on your bedroom door,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: turn up the TV, you know, make it so that
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: they're not going to hear you, nobody's gonna walk in.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: That's helpful. But if they know that you're having sex,
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: they know you're having sex, they're going to have sex
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: at some point.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Too, you know.
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, I mean, I get what you're saying
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: it feels uncomfortable. Of course, you would never want them
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: to overhear you or walk in on you, but the
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: idea that their parents have sex, that normalizes that people
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: are sexual beings. And if they do hear you and
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: they're freaked out by it, I promise you they are
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: going to go to the end of the house and
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: they are not going to hang around the bedroom door
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: if you know, your door is closed and the TV's upright,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: and so some of it is like I think normalizing
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: that you can do everything that you can to make
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: yourself feel better so that you're able to relax into
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: the moment whenever you can snatch it, and if they
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: happen to hear you there, probably wouldn't say anything.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, yeah, yeah, Maybe I just need to
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: get over it a little bit. Because luckily, our laundry
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: room is also on the other side of our bedroom,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: and our washer is getting old.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Just start that washer and drum, she's loud that washer.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: So I'm just like start a load of laundry, turning
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the TV up. We're the locking the door, and you know,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: it feels a little bit better that way, but it's
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: it's almost like you had to hide from your parents before,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: and now it's your hiding from your children.
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: I just love the whole idea.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: I just love the whole idea of just normalizing sex
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: and just stop treating it like it's like this super
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: taboo thing, right, because this is something I tried to
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: do with my son as I knew that he you know,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: he had a serious girlfriend and he was sexually active.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Is that I didn't want to make him feel bad
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: for having sex. Instead, I just said, sex is normal.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: People have sex. Just be smart, right, use your head,
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: use discernment, you know, don't get pregnant, like you know,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: these things not some crazy like My experience, like I said,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: was a little traumatic, and I didn't want to do
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: that to him. I just wanted to be like, no, okay,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: sex is completely normal, and instead like, you know, cause
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: I remember there were so many rules around you know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: obviously you have to have boundaries with your children. I'm
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: not saying that, but there were so many rules around
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: my life at that age, even though I had a
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: serious boyfriend, and it felt again just so like I
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: had to hide. And all it made me do in
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: return is make me want to do the bad things more, right,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Like instead of just having the acceptance of my parents.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: And so I think you're right. I think just normalizing
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: sex in general just makes it just all around better.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I try to take like a hybrid approach with
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: my daughter who's fourteen, which.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Is here, daughters are different.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Here are all the.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Reasons why I believe God designed sex to occur in marriage,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: because it's the safest it's the safest zone to have sex, right,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot of really hard things that can
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: in consequences that come from sex, And so I believe
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: God did design it to happen in this marriage situation.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: But I'm also I can't guarantee that you will uphold
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: those values.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: As much as I want you to.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: I know you're going to be your own person, and
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: I can only have so much influence, and if that
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: isn't the choice that you make, I also want you
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: to know that you can come to me without judgment
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: and that we can talk about it. And here's what
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: I want you to know about sex. And here's the risks,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: and here's the psychological risks and the health risks and here.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: But also it can be a really wonderful, beautiful thing.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: And of course my desire for you is to use
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: God's design there because of the protection of what God
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: brings to that in terms of the marriage covenant, and
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: if pregnancy were to occur or whatever, you feel a
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: lot safer in that zone. But I I can't guarantee
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: that for you. Therefore, I'm also not going to put
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: this shame around it like my you know, family did,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: especially any religious shame, and just not talking about it,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: right said and not talking about it, yeah, a lot
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: better than I want. I want to be able to
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: talk about it. Yeah, yeah, because I can't. I can't
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: guarantee that she's going to do what I think would
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: be best for her.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: I can't guarantee that every parent wants.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Their child to wait until they're married.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: Of course, of course we want that because.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: There is a protection there. But again, it's like you know,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I realistically speaking, I I just you said that, like
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I said, you said that a lot more beautifully than
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I did, because I like, I like the idea of
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: a hybrid approach too, Like yes, you state the risk,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: you state the possible consequences from it, and the decision
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: if you if you decide to do it, but at
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: the same time, not not bringing so much emotional dysregulation
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Right, I want my daughter to be able to if
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: she's going to do that, I want her to be
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: able to come to me with any questions are concerned. Absolutely,
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: and of course, right, I'm not going to be like,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: you're so awful.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Oh dare you do this? Yeah?
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: So, so I don't think that's the way I would
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: ever get through to her about.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: You making safe choices.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't get through to them that way. Absolutely not.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: And so I know that your book covers a lot
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: and I mean you actually the book itself. I think
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I read this it kind of spans the lifetime of
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: the child. Correct.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Awesome?
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah that's right.
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That's awesome. And so your book is
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: called Parents in Love, A Guide to Great Sex After Kids,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: and it is going to be released on October twenty first. Awesome, okay,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: And so tell our listeners where else they can find you, Yes.
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So you can get the book anywhere books
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: are sold, Amazon, Barnes, and Noble anywhere. And then you
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: can find me on my website It's Rebecca Udi dot com.
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: And then I'm also on Instagram. I'm sure you guys
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: will put that into the.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well no, it's absolutely, yeah.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, We'll put all of your information in the show notes,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: and then when your book comes out, we'll just go
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: ahead and put a link to it in there too.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you get it, because I this, Yeah, we
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: should be going. If you send me a link release,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: we'll do that. Then we'll put that in the description.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: And I'm excited. I am excited, you really excited.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm not a reader. Okay, Rebecca, I've not a reader,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: but I really am excited to read your book. And
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: so we just appreciate you so much for being here,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: for giving us your time, and for giving our listeners
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: so much valuable information because I know, you know, I
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: know just from the bottom of my heart that this
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: is going to be super super valuable for so many people,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: and so they can seek you out even further through
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: your book or your Instagram. And of course, please go
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: check out doctor Hensley while you're surfing the world wide
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: web at the lovedoc dot com. For all of our listeners,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: we offer a special promo code of twenty seven percent
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: off all of her services with promo love Doc twenty seven,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: So please go check out doctor Hensley go check out
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: doctor Rebecca Udi and until next time, peace, love and
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: perspective
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: And