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The Vanishing Christians of the Middle East | Robert Spencer · Infidels

• Richard Landes: Welcome to Infidel Awareness Month. Today's subject, the vanishing Christians of the Middle East. Christianity was born in the Middle East, and for 600 years before Islam existed, there were Christians in Jerusalem, Damascus, Antioch, Alexandria, and Baghdad. Some of them still pray in Aramaic the language Jesus spoke. But those communities are now disappearing before our eyes. Iraq had about a million and a half Christians a generation ago. Today, fewer than 150,000 remain. Syria has lost most of its Christians since 2011. A century ago, roughly one in five people in what is now Turkey were Christian. Today it's a fraction of a percent. We're watching the possible end of Christianity in the lands where it began. My guest today has spent more than 40 years on this question, and for him it's not just academic. He is the director of Jihad Watch, jihadwatch.com, the author of more than 30 books on Islam, Jihad, and Islamic history, including the history of Jihad, the critical Quran, and the myth of Islamic tolerance, two of which or New York Times bestsellers. Whatever you make of his conclusions, you must attend to the evidence upon which he bases them. Robert Spencer, welcome to Infidel Awareness Month. Robert Spencer: Richard, good to see you, thank you. Richard Landes: You're welcome. So I think I just briefly mentioned it. Give us an idea of what's happening to the Christians in the Middle East. Robert Spencer: in general in the Middle East, the Christian ancient Christian communities that go back to the origins of Christianity have been thoroughly decimated and are facing complete eradication in the next few years, unless some drastic change is made. but nothing like that seems to be on the horizon. the Ancient Christian communities of Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere have been systematically targeted. the toppling of Saddam Hussein, and now Saddam Hussein was not in any sense a humane or exemplary Richard Landes: Good guy. Robert Spencer: ruler, but he was not ruling according to Islamic law, and this is very important because Islamic law mandates that. Christians either convert to Islam or accept an institutionalized system of discrimination and harassment or face open warfare. Now, Saddam Hussein didn't pay any attention to that, and he actually granted equality of rights or near equality of rights to the Christians in Iraq, where there is no other country in the Islamic world today that grants full equality of rights. To Christians or any other religious minority. And so this was a singular thing. similarly, actually, Bashar Assad and his father did much the same in Syria. But now they're both gone. And Saddam Hubble. Richard Landes: So this is this this is this Arab nationalist take that right. That that never Robert Spencer: The Arab Nationalism, the whole Arab nationalist movement was founded by, among others, but one of the foremost founders of the Arab nationalist movement was Michelle Aflak, who was a Christian himself. And he actually formulated the whole idea of a unity of Arabs on the basis of their Arabiyyah, of their Arabness, as a response to and an antidote to. The discrimination against Christians that was embedded within Islamic law. And he hoped on this basis to create a society where Christians would be able to live decent lives. And they did essentially in Iraq and Syria, where Arab nationalism reigned up until, of course, Saddam Hussein was toppled. And now Arab nationalism is a moribund ideology. The replacement Richard Landes: So so in fact the Westerners I've talked with people in what's called political science who tell me, talk about nationalism, nationalism in the Middle East. And I respond and say, you know, I'm not sure there's much traction for nationalism. It doesn't, you know, it's a Western import and you're looking for it, but But you may not be seeing what's going on. Why is it that in fact, does nationalism have any purchase in the Arab world? Robert Spencer: Not really. it's noteworthy that the Israeli media tends to frame jihad violence in terms of nationalism. I frequently read in the Israeli media sources that there was so and so who was killed in Judea and Samaria or wherever, and the attacker did this deed because of nationalistic motives. Richard Landes: Really? Robert Spencer: And this is the prevailing euphemism in the Israeli press that corresponds to youths who are rioting in France and and Asians who are c Richard Landes: Right. And Robert Spencer: carrying com committing mass rapes in Britain and so on. Every I'm sorry? I didn't Richard Landes: Central Asian. Central Asian. Robert Spencer: well the I they they always just say Asians in the British press and they mean Richard Landes: okay. I thought it was Robert Spencer: Pakistani Muslim migrants, but that's they call them Asians. Yeah, they get leave open the possibility that we're talking about gangs of feral Japanese. but in any Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: case, the situation in the Islamic world, when you're talking about nationalism, is that nationalism is subordinate to The idea of the overarching unity of the global Ummah, the Islamic community that is that that extends to every Muslim in the world. And so a pious Muslim who is knowledgeable and believing is expected to consider his nationality as secondary and subordinate to his Islamic identity, and to see feel a unity with his Muslim brethren across national minds. Richard Landes: Right. And so this gives us, for example, a recent example of of the case of Americans thinking that Hamas is a national resistance movement rather than understanding that, as one of the founders said, they're out for every five every inch of the five hundred and ten million square kilometers of the globe. Robert Spencer: Yes. This is a fundamental misapprehension on the part of so many people in the West. Richard Landes: Yeah. Robert Spencer: And you know, they have to be aware of the many statements by Palestinian Arab Muslim leaders that contradict this. But Richard Landes: Exactly. Robert Spencer: this is something that's not talked about in the West. But you have, for example, I believe he was a high PLO official in the 70s. Who said, in in addition to saying that famously or somewhat famously, that the Palestinian nationality was invented as a weapon to fight Israel with, but also he said that if a Palestinian state is created, it will almost immediately be incorporated into a larger Islamic entity. And that the whole Richard Landes: Okay. Robert Spencer: idea is ultimately to restore. the caliphate as the political the center of the political unity of Muslims worldwide. Richard Landes: All right, and not understanding that can lead to catastrophic diplomatic moves like the West thinking that Jerusalem should be divided because shucks shouldn't the Palestinian nation also have its capital there. Whereas, in fact, for the I call caliphaters, the guys who are working for the the global caliphate in our lives. And for the caliphaters, Jerusalem's gonna be the capital of the caliphate. The global Robert Spencer: Well it could yeah, well be. I think Erdogan might have different ideas as to what he would like to be the capital and probably the Islamic State ISIS has a a third entry. Yes, exactly. So Richard Landes: And the Iranians are fourth. Yeah. Robert Spencer: it's it's not certain that Jerusalem would be. However, there is no doubt indeed that when we're talking about Hamas, after all the name itself is an acronym for the Islamic resistance movement. It's an Islamic movement, not one that is nationalistic at its core. This is something American analysts and European analysts seem to refuse to grasp. That this is not really something that will be s well witness the ongoing desire to establish the so-called two-state solution. it it's called a solution, Richard Landes: Exactly. Robert Spencer: so it must be, but it's actually anything but because a s a Palestinian state would be analogous to the what happened after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. That instead of the Gaza Gazans going about their business and devoting themselves to peaceful occupations, they turned the whole place into a jihad base to fight Israel. And a Palestinian state would likewise be another jihad base to fight what remained of Israel. Because the Richard Landes: So Robert Spencer: imperative is not to achieve statehood for this nationality which doesn't even exist anyway, in any real sense, has no history, no separate identity from that of the Arabs in the area. It's it's it would just be a stepping stone to establish Islamic hegemony and ultimately the larger caliphate. Richard Landes: Is it possible to say that Palestine only really exists in the Western mind? Robert Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. now here there's a lot of confusion and so very briefly, yes, Palestine was a region, the name of a region ever since the Romans renamed Judea Palestine, just to needle the the Jews, as a matter of fact, by take plucking a name out of their scriptures that was the name of their ancient enemies, who had long since Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: died out. There isn't any ethnic or historic connection between The Palestinian Arabs of today and the Philistines of the scriptures. But in any case, they they named it that, so it was called that. The but it was never the name of a nationality or an ethnicity any more than Staten Island. there are Staten Islanders, but it's not a separate nationality or ethnicity. They are just people Richard Landes: Actually, I think Staten I Staten Islanders have more of a sense of solidarity with Staten Islanders than anyway. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's let's get back to Christians. Okay? Robert Spencer: Yeah, maybe maybe it maybe a case can be made. Free Staten Island. especially now with Mamdani there. But in any case, there's no there okay, but there's no Palestinians, that's all. It was invented in the sixties by the KGB and Arafat. Richard Landes: Yes. And okay, and n the end of our conversation we'll come around to why the West is so gullible. Robert Spencer: Yes. Richard Landes: but right now what I'd like to do is at least focus for a moment on what's the technique whereby these Christians are let's call it a slow motion ethnic cleansing. Robert Spencer: Yeah. Well it's it's Richard Landes: I mean some cases quick motion like with the with the poor Armenians. Robert Spencer: Sure. Well, according to Islamic law, the Christians, as well as the Jews and others, the people of the book, so-called, have to submit to the hegemony of the Muslims and live under the rule of Islam, which s sets various restrictions on their behavior and activity so that they are kept poor, discriminated against in various ways, kept from various professions. can't build new houses of worship or repair old ones, so their communities are always declining. And this is the letter of Islamic law to this day. However, in the 1850s, this law was officially set aside in the last caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, as well as in Egypt and in other Islamic entities, and this was for various pragmatic reasons. And so you don't find it fully enforced today in any part of the Islamic world. However, it remains a very strong cultural and societal influence because it is considered to be the perfect, unalterable law of Allah that is the ideal rule for societies. It makes for Christians being discriminated against in various ways, suffering various hardships and deprivations in numerous Islamic countries. And it is the desire of jihad groups around the world, ultimately, once they establish their caliphate, to reimpose it in its fullness. And so Christians suffer various discrim various forms of discrimination everywhere, and occasionally because the jihadis are imposing once again the tripartite choice, conversion, subjugation, or war. and the Christians refuse, then they are actively warred Richard Landes: Defined. Robert Spencer: against, which is what the Armenian genocide was and what the destruction of the Christian communities in our own day in Iraq and Syria has been. Richard Landes: Right. A and also what they wanted to do to Israel but couldn't. Robert Spencer: Yes, absolutely. Because Israel is an insult to Islam in the fact of its very existence. See, Islam must dominate and not be dominated. This is a statement attributed to Muhammad. And in the Islamic scheme, the idea is that Islam is always growing. You note, for example, that numerous flags of Islamic countries are green. Why are they green? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, others? What's with green? Do they just like the color? It's Richard Landes: Yeah. Robert Spencer: not that they're Packers fans. What it is, is that they believe that Islam is or should be in a perpetual springtime. That is it's always growing and expanding. It's never withering or contracting. And so in the Richard Landes: That's a that's an amazing image. That's an amazing image coming out of a desert. Robert Spencer: Yeah, well, maybe that's why that they see the desert and they say that we're going to make it green with Islam. It's going to be fruitful because after all the Quran promises prosperity in this world as well as the next to the faithful. And so you have a desert, you want it to bloom. The promise is, it's even encapsulated in the Azan, the call to prayer. Come to prayer, come to success, that you will succeed in this world. And so every land that belonged to Islam belongs to it forever. There's no retreat. Like Brezhnev said about the communists, what we have we hold. And it's i in in in Islam they believe exactly the same thing. So the Quran says, drive them out from where they drove you out. This is the imperative regarding Israel. It doesn't have to do with nineteen forty eight or alleged settlements or Zionism. It's the fact that Israel exists on land that was once ruled by Islam. And the Muslims have a call from Allah in that verse, drive them out from where they drove you out to eradicate this entity that exists that is not Muslim on land that they once ruled, because they have to hold what they have. Richard Landes: Right. Does that apply to Spain and the Balkans? Robert Spencer: It most definitely does. And so if if God forbid Israel were destroyed, then Spain would be the next on the to-do list. And we actually already see this happening. We see it stepping up with tremendous intensity in the last few weeks with this massive influx of Richard Landes: All right. Robert Spencer: migrants from Morocco into Spain. And make no mistake, it's not that these are poor, deprived people. You notice that every time you see them. They are young military age males. There aren't women among them. There are no children. There's not this is not families coming into Spain. These are young men who are ready to impose the Islamic imperative. And that is that they are actually activating another passage of acting upon another passage of the Quran, which states that a great reward from Allah is given to those who emigrate for the sake of Allah. It's chapter four, verse one hundred. And so you emigrate for the sake of Allah, that is you bring Islam to the new place where you're coming, then you get this reward from Allah. So this is happening now in Spain for exactly the same reasons, ultimately, that it's going on in Israel. Richard Landes: Okay, now so far you've sketched a picture of this movement in terms of the past. I get the sense that at least since fourteen hundred, their fourteen hundred or nineteen eighty, that it's actually gone to a new phase, which is not only do we want what used to be, we want it all. Robert Spencer: Yes, that's right. Well that was always there. The Quran in chapter eight verse thirty nine says fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. Now see, there are many Islamic apologists in the West who will say that Isla that jihad is just defensive, that Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: if we are attacked we fight back. We're not pacifists. Great. That would be the case if the passage said fight them until persecution is no more. However, it doesn't end there. It says fight them until persecution is no more and religion is all for Allah. And this is repeated in two one hundred ninety one as well, chapter two, verse one hundred ninety one of the Quran, that you fight until religion is all for Allah. So you and I might be minding our own business and not bothering anybody, but if our religion is not all for Allah, somebody Richard Landes: That's right. Robert Spencer: might one day get the idea they have to fight us. Richard Landes: Yeah, so i in in a sense what what they mean by persecution is persecution of Muslims. They don't mean that the end it'll be the end of persecution for the Christians and the Jews and the pagans. Robert Spencer: that's right. Yeah, it's persecution of Muslims they're talking about. And so Richard Landes: Yeah. Robert Spencer: that persecution must that must be resisted, but also Muslims must fight until religion is all for Allah. Now it gets a little bit Richard Landes: Okay. Robert Spencer: more complicated because it's actually, according to Sunni law, the province of the caliph only to wage offensive jihad. And so all the jihads that are proceeding today are defensive. But there are elaborate ways of explaining why they can go on. I mean, Osama bin Laden, you know, before he hit the Twin Towers, wrote several declarations of jihad against the United States in the 90s, list pilot Richard Landes: Nineteen eighty eight. Robert Spencer: long lists of grievances against the US, and that was his justification for waging defensive jihad against us. But yeah, ultimately there's the offensive imperative to bring the whole world. Under the rule of Islam. Richard Landes: Okay, so let me ask you because the the Muslim Brotherhood is Sunni. And they have this plan that dates back to 1400 and 1982, I think is the earliest document that we have, describing a plan to take over the West. Now that and and they say, well, we don't have to do it by jihad, we can do it by Dawa. So you don't need you don't need a caliph, a caliph to tell you you can do Dawa conquest. Robert Spencer: No, not at all. No. And you don't need Richard Landes: I see. Robert Spencer: a caliph to tell you that you can do defensive jihad either. That is obligatory upon every Muslim if a Muslim land is attacked. And so a lot of Muslims consider that we are in an age of perpetual defensive jihad because the very existence of Israel constitutes an attack on Muslim land. And so Yeah, Richard Landes: Right. And anybody with supports her. Yeah. Robert Spencer: exactly. So then, yeah. The document from actually the one from nineteen ninety two, the explanatory memorandum of Muslim Brotherhood Richard Landes: Right. Four ninety four. Right. Robert Spencer: and its strategic goals for North America, it describes the Muslim's role in the United States or the Ichhwan's role, the Brotherhood's role in the United States, as eliminating and destroying a kind of grand jihad. In eliminating and destroying Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it falls and Allah's religion is victorious over other religions. That's a quote from the document itself. So what they're Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: working at is a jihad of subversion and internal destruction. And notice that it says sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers. That is, they're gonna get Westerners to sabotage their own house, which is a reference to the Quran, chapter fifty-nine, verse two, which has Allah confusing the infidels and making them destroy their own homes in the Richard Landes: What? Robert Spencer: face of the Muslim advance. And so you look around at the West today and you see all these people who get angry when Israel fights back, or angry when people say we have to restrict mass Muslim migration into Europe. or angry when we say that these DSA candidates in the United States like Zohan Mamdani and Abdul al-Sayed have a an agenda that is inimical to national security. We're destroying ourselves by our own hands. It's exactly as the Brotherhood had planned. It's going wonderfully for them. Richard Landes: It is amazing. I actually wrote out a poem a a prayer that a Dawah a da'i would utter in the year 2000 before even before the attack on Israel, but certainly before nine-eleven. And it's basically, Allah, give us idiots. And it's you know, every single one has been fulfilled. Robert Spencer: You're gonna make me believe in Allah here. There's so many idiots. Richard Landes: I know well I certainly know that as a Muslim it would make me believe. I mean the stupidity of the West would be a proof that Allah Robert Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Richard Landes: was on our side. Robert Spencer: I do think that there is a lot of evidence from if you look at the sermons that the Middle East Media Reading Media Research Institute, Memory, puts out, and Palestinian Media Watch also, that but especially Memory because they've started to cover preachers in the United States, they're tremendously Richard Landes: Yes. Robert Spencer: encouraged and they do believe that this is a fulfillment of Quranic promise that Allah is confusing the unbelievers, is making the unbelievers work against their own best interests. And I Richard Landes: I think we have to get some of these clips we have to get some of these clips up to put next to this interview. Robert Spencer: Yeah, Richard Landes: let me let me ask you i i I'd like to go further into the question of what it means to be for, and right now I'm referring to the people we're talking about as supremacist Muslims. I'm not saying what percentage of the world population they are. I think that's ultimately a question that Muslims have to answer. But what's what how does the supremacist Muslim look at the infidel? Robert Spencer: As the most vile of created beings, that is chapter ninety eight, verse six of the Quran, as like cattle, only worse, that is chapter seven, verse one seventy-nine, like animals, it's chapter eight, verse fifty-five. the Quran also says Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are ruthless to unbelievers, merciful to one another. That's chapter forty-eight, verse twenty-nine. So you have the idea. That these are animalistic, contemptible beings to whom one owes no respect. You may recall the famous former MSNBC host Mehdi Hassan, and there is a video of him from long before he became so internationally famous, Richard Landes: I've seen it. Robert Spencer: saying that the unbelievers are animalistic, are totally devoid of moral sensibility. And it's the Muslims who have to be a humanizing influence in the world. And this is also from the Quran. All that's straight from the Quran, but then there's chapter three, verse 110, which says to the Muslims, You are the best of people, raised up for mankind, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong. This is an extraordinarily important passage because not only does it say that the Muslims are the best people on earth. But it says that they are the best people on earth within the context of their setting, telling the world what's right and what's wrong, that they set the moral agenda, and that's what makes them the best of people vis-a-vis the most most vile of created beings. And so the average supremacist Muslim who understands these passages and takes them seriously, is going to think he has a responsibility to bring Sharia Islamic law to the world, because that is. What makes them the best of people, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and telling these vile animalistic creatures how they should behave. Richard Landes: So this is, I mean, you know, in in modern Western parlance, this is racism. Robert Spencer: Yeah. Richard Landes: I know I know it's supposed to be a religion, but the attitude of to the non-religious is the equivalent. the Robert Spencer: Yes. Richard Landes: laws are apartheid. you know, the the attitude is we are so good that nobody else deserves. To live unbothered by our presence. Robert Spencer: Yeah. Nobody deserves to live as equals with us in any Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: society, and no non Muslims do in any Muslim society. Richard Landes: So now let's talk about the West for a moment. w the term that I'm using and I I don't know how long I'm gonna use it, but for now it seems to me, gets at what I'm trying to what I'm looking for from the Muslim world and that is is it possible for a Muslim to be neighborly with non Muslims? Robert Spencer: Sure. see, human nature is everywhere the same. And people have a wide variety. Every individual on the planet has a massive variety of perspectives, influences, priorities, desires, hopes, fears, etc. so religion is one thing that influences human behavior, and there it it takes its place among a myriad of others. Now, for some, they're extremely knowledgeable and serious. And I don't think that anybody could reasonably expect that an extremely knowledgeable and serious Muslim is going to be neighborly with non-Muslims, except for the purposes of dawah. But other Muslims who are at various other points on the spectrums of knowledge, of devoutness, and so on, might well very well be. But at the same time, Richard, I have to note that there is a disturbing thread. Of accounts throughout history of Muslims being very kind and neighborly toward non-Muslims and then at a certain point turning. And there's a there's a story that I put in a very one one book that I've written very early on, years ago, I came across this of a a woman writing in the Ottoman Empire in the late 19th century and saying, We lived next to these Christians for 25 years. And we were their friends and we socialized with them. But one day my husband came home and he said, I was just at the mosque and the Qadi told me to kill the Christians next door. And sh I was horrified and I told him he better not do it and Allah would pay him out for it. But he said, I have to do it. I was told to, and he went and he killed them. And their stories out of Syria during the Civil War, just 10, 15 years ago, the same kind of thing. I remember photo in the New York Times. Of a couple that was murdered by their Muslim neighbors after living together next to them for decades and being friendly. also there's Richard Landes: Okay. Robert Spencer: Tamilin Sarnayev, the Boston Marathon jihad bomber who was linked after. Richard Landes: Right. Whose best friend was a Jew. Robert Spencer: Yeah, exactly. He was close friends with a Jewish guy. And after the Boston Marathon bombing, when they're investigating his past, it comes out that he had gone over to see his close friend, this Jewish man, and slit his throat and the he was never caught for that. it was only found that he had done it after the attack. Richard Landes: Right. I I deal with that in my book Can the Whole World Be Wrong? That's such a terrible story. Okay, now one thing worth noting is that the same dynamic appears to have been at work with not major Muslim input in the Balkans in the nineteen nineties, where Robert Spencer: yeah. Richard Landes: various groups were living side by side. I remember reading a book about it and one of them said when the joke stopped, the knives came out. Robert Spencer: Mm-hmm. Sure. And you know, Richard Landes: Yeah. Right. Robert Spencer: here again you have Yugoslavia that's a communist state, and it is not in the least interested in religious divisions or ethnic divisions. And so people living, it's it's tyranny, no doubt, but it everybody's living under the same tyranny and they all live together. Once that's gone, and you have the breakup of Yugoslavia into constituent states based on religious identity. then the religious imperatives come back to the fore and the Muslims start to victimize them. Richard Landes: I want to go back to something you said. This incident that you talked about. that you wrote about early on. You said it was in the late nineteenth century. Do Robert Spencer: Yes. Richard Landes: you know if it was at the time thirteen hundred is eighteen eighty two? It's the Mahdi of Khartoum. It's a it's a very intense moment. Could it have happened around then? Robert Spencer: I believe it was a little bit later, if I recall correctly, it was in 1894. And that is Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Robert Spencer: actually the the the real beginning of the Armenian genocide, which took place sporadically over Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: the next 20 years or 25 years. the it first started because of Greek and Armenian nationalism, that the Greeks and Armenians wanted their own states. To be and to be independent of the Ottoman Empire. The Greeks won their independence in 1821, but there was still a very considerable Greek population within the remaining portion of the Ottoman Empire. And of course, the Armenians over to the east wanted their independence as well. And so they were considered Kufar Harbi, infidels at war with Islam, who were rebelling against the Muslim ruler when they should have been accepting their subjugation. And so that's the beginning of the wholesale murder of Armenians as well as Greeks and Assyrians. And then it Richard Landes: All right. Robert Spencer: continued under the Turkish nationalists, even though they were not wanting to impose Islamic law. Richard Landes: Jill with her. Robert Spencer: They had the idea of a Turkish ethnostate in which only Muslim Turks would be full citizens. Richard Landes: So i I mean, there's an ironic statement here because on the one hand, we're projecting Palestinian nationalism, whereas really in the vocabulary of supremacist Islam, nationalism is just an enemy. Anybody else's nationalism is an enemy. Wow. Robert Spencer: Yeah, see, if a Muslim were to say, I'm a Syrian first or I'm an Iraqi first, i a lot of Muslims would come to him and say, You're on very dangerous ground, you're committing heresy here, you're a Muslim first. And so Richard Landes: So we Robert Spencer: nationalism is actively discouraged. You can see this on Islamic websites every day. Richard Landes: So in other words, if i i is that the reason why, for example, Hamas has no trouble sacrificing Palestinian civilians? They they're not Robert Spencer: Yeah. Richard Landes: there's no nation that they're trying to protect. These people are cannon fodder for their jihad. And Robert Spencer: That's right. And they're going to become all part of a larger Islamic entity. It's not going to be, it's not going to end with a Palestinian state. The ideal is if they create a Palestinian state, it will be incorporated into probably first an Arab state and then an Islamic state. Now, of course, this is always subject to the fact that everybody wants to be in charge. And so practically it's probably never going to happen. But that is indeed what is what Hamas is working for. It's very clear in the Hamas charter that they consider themselves to be part of the Muslim Brotherhood working waging jihad in Palestine for the sake of the global Umma, not for the sake of a Palestinian state. Richard Landes: Right, right. Phew. Okay, so now you've got this system and I was interested that you didn't cite as part of the law of the thimi the fact that they're legally at a disadvantage, that they can't give testimony in court, that they're they can't bring a Muslim to court. is that still functioning or is that one of the sort of stupid stronger apartheid elements that's been at least informally left off in Muslim majority nations that aren't fully Sharia compliant but close to. Robert Spencer: Well, in the first place there are Sharia states. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan to a tremendous degree, Sudan, Somalia, but the other Muslim countries only enforce various aspects of Sharia. However, Sharia always is there. I'll give you an example actually from our nominal topic about the persecution of Christians. There was a Christian in the nineties in Kuwait, I mean actually a Muslim in the nineties in Kuwait who converted to Christianity. And Richard Landes: Ouch. Robert Spencer: he was arrested and put on trial. And his first statement in court was, What on earth am I being arrested and put on trial for? The Kuwaiti constitution guarantees the freedom of religion and freedom to change one's religion. And the judge told him, Yeah, whatever the Kuwaiti constitution said. Richard Landes: Mm. Robert Spencer: The law of Islam says you don't leave Islam on pain of death, and that's why Richard Landes: So Robert Spencer: you're in trial. Richard Landes: right. So in other words, the the constitution of Kuwait is for Western consumption. Yeah. Robert Spencer: Yeah, exactly. And it gives the impression that we have this wonderful family of nations that meets at the UN in New York and all shares its the same values. But even there, the many Muslim countries have retreated from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And you know, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of nineteen forty-eight, Charles Malik of Lebanon made sure that Article eighteen would be con Cont included that guarantees the freedom to change one's religion or to have no religion at all. And he insisted that that be in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because of Islam's death penalty for apostasy and death penalty for proselytizing, for that matter, among Muslims. And so in 1991, a group of Muslim countries met in Cairo and formulated what they called the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights. Which states first off that everything is under Sharia, and Sharia does not allow the freedom of conscience. Richard Landes: Right. This is very similar to what happened to professional journalistic ethics when Arab and Muslim organizations rephrased it and there it was, you know, and I I I don't know how to pronounce it. Al Walla Walbara. Robert Spencer: Yeah, awalla wa bara. The the idea of ill hating what is good and hating what is evil and loving what is good and rejecting what is evil, that you actively work against what is against Islam and promote what is for Islam. And so Richard Landes: So you gotta you gotta support a a fellow Muslim no matter what he does and you can't support a fellow infidel no matter how good he is. Robert Spencer: Exactly. And so if you're a journalist or in a journalistic profession pretending to be a journalist, then you have to portray jihad attacks in a way that look makes it look as if it's the infidel's fault and not the not Islam's. And you know, just you know, you mentioned not having to talk about Nigeria at the beginning, but this is something Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: I just saw from Nigeria just yesterday, that the Tr to the wonderful site, there's a wonderful site I highly recommend if you were at all interested in the Islamic jihad in Nigeria is Truth Richard Landes: Absolutely. Robert Spencer: Nigeria. And Truth Nigeria published a very important expose yesterday saying that the international press routinely whitewashes what's happening. And that, for example, there was an attack of Fulani Islamic jihadis on a village, which I track at jihadwatch.org all the time. This happens practically every day. The Fulani come into a village, they start screaming Alaku Akbar, they kill as many people as they can, they burn down the church, they burn down people's houses, and they leave. Now, they reported all this in the in in Truth Nigeria, but then Reuters reported it as farmer herdsman clashes with no mention of the Allahu Akbar cry. No mention that it has to do with Muslims trying to display terrorize Christians into leaving the area, displace them from their land, and claim the land for themselves. Nothing of jihad. And this is routine journalistic practice. It's not just reuters. It's all across Richard Landes: Right. Robert Spencer: the board. Richard Landes: Right, which brings us to the most puzzling aspect of this story, which is the inability of the West to even look at it much less understand the dynamics underlying it. And so, you know, in some senses I I was writing in another section about the way in which the media, you know, somebody will will kill one or two or three people with a knife yelling Allahu Akbar and the police report that he was uttering incoherent shouts Robert Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. Richard Landes: or something. You know, it's like so Robert Spencer: And he's got a history of mental problems. Richard Landes: right, right, right. So we're dealing with a news media, I prefer to refer to them as information professionals. So that's journalists, that's academics, that's NGO researchers. all of them behaving in a way that literally r repeats and translates into a sympathetic language the jihadi war narrative. Robert Spencer: Yes. Because most of them are Marxists and so they see the world in terms of the oppressor and the oppressed and they've decided that the great oppressor, of course, is the United States and secondarily Israel. And so the jihadis who are fighting against the West are the oppressed. And of course then they've got their racial lens and they see everything as the oppressed brown people striking back at the white oppressor. And then the you have the element you mentioned a minute ago of the Islamic presence, which they have for the sake of diversity and inclusion and equity, that they have an increasing number of Muslims in the newsrooms and policies that they've adopted, actual journalistic guidelines that say we we don't want to encourage Islamophobia by giving a negative view of Islam. And so when you have these kinds of attacks, you have to attribute them to various other motives. Richard Landes: Yeah, like at the approach of n twenty five years after nine eleven, the C B C came out with with instructions not to use the word terrorism to describe the event. I I have a long essay on that. Robert Spencer: Yeah, and also there was a whole avalanche of stories in the first eleven days of September all about Richard Landes: right. Robert Spencer: how mos much Muslims have suffered in the wake of Richard Landes: Yes. Robert Spencer: nine eleven. And I covered many of these at Jihadwatch that this was again and again you see the narrative that what happened Richard Landes: Check it. Yeah. Robert Spencer: was a group of people who happened incidentally to be Muslim hit the towers and no discussion of their motives. Richard Landes: Yeah. Robert Spencer: is allowed because that would lead right back into Islam. And so the pivot is immediately to excuse me, the pivot is immediately to that the there was a skyrocketing rate of Islamophobia after 9-11 and Muslims have lived in fear in the West ever since. Now in real life, most of the Muslims in the United States are here since 9-11 and they suffer no discrimination. As a matter of fact, people bend over backwards to show they're not Islamophobic. And they welcome them all over the the country. And of course there should not be any attacks on any innocent people, Muslim or no. But the fact the is that the narrative that Islamophobia is the main lesson of nine-eleven, is an intentional attempt to obscure what really the attacks were all about and what is happening continuously in the United States and all over the West today. With increasing efforts to bring Sharia here. Richard Landes: So in other words, let me see if I can translate this into something that I ran across as a historian. The in the late ninth twentieth century and early twenty first century, there was the emergence of what I called therapeutic history, which is you tell a narrative to have a therapeutic effect on the population. So you tell a narrative of Islam is a religion of peace, these people have nothing to do with Islam, there are all sorts of tolerant passages in the Quran. You don't have to you not only don't you have to worry about Muslims, but you have no business poking your nose in their affairs, on the one hand, and that's to prevent Islamophobia. So literally you're making Western infidels stupid. In order to produce a behavior that some of us might even call virtue signaling, in the sense that people are going out of their way to say I'm no Islamophobe, when Islamophobia is precisely the weapon, the cognitive war weapon that they use to silence our ability to talk about. Robert Spencer: That's right. It's been a remarkably effective tactic. I Richard Landes: Still. Robert Spencer: I can tell you, I've spoken in the last twenty five years, I've spoken at campuses all over the country. You know, UCLA, Dartmouth, University of Virginia, Wisconsin, all over the place. Dozens of them. And everywhere, without exception, everywhere, it's been as if Jack the Ripper's coming to speak at our campus. It's it's the terrible villainous Islamophobe is coming to speak to our campus. And I guarantee you that if Osama bin Laden were alive today and they were to go on any k any of the campuses where I've spoken, he would be there would be a sizable contingent of students, non-Muslim Richard Landes: Cheering him on. Robert Spencer: as well as Muslim, cheering him, yes, and saying, we're so glad that you struck the American war machine and the the wicked imperialist colonialist white supremacists. And so they've been Richard Landes: Right. Well Robert Spencer: programmed over a generation to think Islamophobia is the real problem. Richard Landes: Right. At at Infidel Awareness Month, we dedicated September twelfth to the oikophobic response of Westerners who cheered on the blow to the towers because they so loathed their own culture that to see it s hit I call it the marriage of pre modern sadism and postmodern masochism. But it's it's Robert Spencer: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: like What are you doing? you know, this is a blow for freedom? it just it Judith Butler or you know, Hamas and Khizbullah are part of the anti-imperialist alliance. You know, the the the most ruthless and savage and ambitious imperialists. You're bringing in Robert Spencer: Well, here again I think it excuse me, but it's like the the the Marxists that I mentioned before that they're fitting everything into their procrastinate bed of oppressed oppressor. And so you Richard Landes: Okay. Right. Robert Spencer: have somebody like Judith Butler, she can't see that these people are oppressors themselves. It's not possible. She has to discount that information, it simply cannot be processed. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Does not compute. Now let me push back a little on what you said. You said, and you called it Marxist, I'd call it postcolonial, which is just Marxism two or three point but it's this paradigm that that as you described it is about the strong and the weak and the oppression and who's the victim and so on and so forth. What strikes me about that is that to identify the Palestinians as victims. takes an enormous amount of ignoring reality, as you just described with Judith Butler. And so is it I mean, okay, so some people, let's say even 80%, which means that Western information elites are 80% stupid, but 80% of them actually believe this and Robert Spencer: Yeah. Richard Landes: are willing to cram everything into their procrastinated bed. But Why isn't there some significant pushback from others? I mean, even during the time that William Durante was describing Stalin as Uncle Joe, who wasn't hurting a flea on the head of an Ukrainian, Robert Spencer: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: there were other journalists who were saying, no, that's not what's going on. Why is Robert Spencer: Well, I think even even in the times of Walter Durante you had the same kind of conformism and fear of sticking your neck out that I think informs a great deal of this. that w in a certain sense, the left has not progressed beyond the fifth grade and they still want to be in the in crowd. And it's just not cool to be pro-Israel and to be anti-Jihad. You wanna be in the in group. you have to parrot all this nonsense. And then on the other side of it, you've got the complete lack of conscience that characterizes Marxism or what did you say, postcolonialism. The Richard Landes: Yeah. Robert Spencer: I remember I was a a a a communist in college, you know? like many people. Yeah, well you were smarter than I was. So I I worked at Richard Landes: Really? I never was. I went to Russia in nineteen sixty nine and we walked Robert Spencer: Is that wrong? Richard Landes: out. We walked out, you know, we all had these posters of Lenin, which we got as jokes because it's such a a nightmarish place. And we get out and there's, you know, Time magazine, John Harvard, striped and and I got to the third column and it said, And in Seaver Hall there was a giant poster of Lennon up. And I just closed it and that was the end of my political career. There was no way I was going with these people. Robert Spencer: Well actually I had kind of a similar experience. I I I was very into it, you know. I worked at the revolution books, the Revolutionary Communist Party's book Richard Landes: Who Robert Spencer: of war and go out on the street with petitions, all this nonsense. Richard Landes: So what woke you up? What woke you up? Robert Spencer: I'm sorry? well what what happened was I s I I I I s it really started to bother me. It's not that I just discovered it, but I started to think about it more and more and more. You know, sixty million people killed in communist China, thirty five, forty million in the Soviet Union. this dwarfs what the Nazis did, which is not to minimize what they did, but nonetheless, i i I I s yeah, yeah. Richard Landes: And they did it to their own people. The Nazis at least thought they were doing it to an enemy, but they did it to their own people. Robert Spencer: And Democratic Campuccia, you know, with the charges pinned on the bear skin and and and the piles of skulls and all that. And so I asked this this this woman that had really been instrumental in bringing me into it all. And she said, you know, you wanna make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs. And she started to speak about how unspeakably evil these people were. who were being killed. And I started to think that maybe there's a problem with this. But I think that when a lot of these academics hear the same argument, they think, yeah, okay. Israel's an oppressor and so what the Palestinians do is justify. Richard Landes: Okay, so now let me push one more step here, and that is that I mean, I first worked out this image while dealing with journalists. And, you know, I said, okay, so some of them are, you know, ideologues, but all of them, and what I came up with was the idea that the configuration that we see above the table, the story, the narrative that they tell, which is basically West Splained jihad narrative. It's the jihad narrative for infidel consumption. And they're feeding their own people the narrative of their enemy that their enemy wants them to believe. Okay? Robert Spencer: Yes. Richard Landes: And so what I came up with was that, in fact, under the table is a magnet that gives you that configuration. And that magnet is the threat that if you violate The rules of Dimitude, but it's an invisible Dimitude. If you violate the rules, if you tell the story that Hamas is bad, if you focus on the fact that they built 500 miles of tunnel under Gaza and not one public bomb shelter, then you're in trouble. And so, in a sense, our information professionals have been. intimidated into behaving like good dimmy. Robert Spencer: Yes. Yeah, well sure. You know, you're some kid out of journalism school and you get a job with Reuters and you think you've made it and you don't want to get fired. You know what the line is. And so we even had what is that guy's name? Azaiza, who was filming all the atrocities that that Hum yeah, Mother Aziza. Richard Landes: yeah. Motas. Motas is I think right. Robert Spencer: The the the hum he's he's covering for Hamas and he also notes That the Western journalists would turn their cameras away when Hamas was brutalizing the Israeli hostages. Because the these the guys behind the camera knew what the their bosses wanted. And what do their bosses want? They want Israel as evil. And why do they want that? Well, then look at all the money that Qatar and and Saudi Arabia before it has been pouring into the West, not only into our educational institutions, but also into journalistic outlets. Richard Landes: Like CNN in Doha. Robert Spencer: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: Right. So All right, so this brings us to a situation in which even Christians who You know, they're not they're not consumed like let's say the Archbishop of Canterbury by some kind of ecumenical multi-culti religious whatever, kumbaya. even Christians in America don't either know or come to the defense of these communities in the in in the Middle East. Robert Spencer: That's right. And I think that's for a variety of reasons. but probably the main one is what you identified with the Archbishop of Canterbury, but an even worse offender is the Pope. And the idea is that the dialogue is gonna solve everything. And I I I've I've been canceled from Roman Catholic events where I was supposed to speak, and the bishop said. I'm canceling this guy because if he talks about Muslim persecution of Christians and Islamic jihad, it will harm the wonderful dialogue we're having with Islamic groups. Well, has that dialogue saved even one Christian from persecution or one church from being burnt? No. But it's the official line of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, many of the Protestant bodies. And so they think that if they sit down and talk and and have chicken and pita with Islamic leaders, That the Huh? Richard Landes: And shut you up. And shut you up. Yeah. Robert Spencer: Yeah. And they're happy to shut up because they think that when these guys are friendly to them, that that means that things are gonna be fine. And you look at Pip Pope Francis with Al Tayyib, Altaiib the the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar. And he's the the foremost authority in the Sunni world, and you look at him and you can tell that he doesn't have any regard for Francis, and Francis is is is grinning and and and hugging him and he's Stonefaced, and he signs this accord saying that we reject religious violence. It's it's and then turns around and in Al Azhar endorses the exact same religious violence that he just rejected. And nobody, and Francis doesn't catch on, Leo doesn't catch on, nobody seems to mind that the whole thing is openly duplicitous. Richard Landes: This brings us back to that artic that that interview that Motaz gave about what it was like to do journalism in the West in Gaza and in the West Bank, in which, you know, the there's a there's complete coordination between Hamas and the journalists. They have a WhatsApp group. So I mean so Is the only way that this is gonna come to the attention of Christians in America from bottom up because none of their leadership will let them know what's going on? Robert Spencer: Yeah, I think that's absolutely exactly the case. there are Christians of all denominations that are working to draw attention to this. I'll actually have a book out next year called Christian Persecution, a global survey, and I'm hoping that will get some attention to it. there is an increasing awareness, I think, among Christians across the board that most of their leadership is essentially useless and they need to Take care of things themselves. But also, of course, the the multiple sects and all the splits in Christianity make it more difficult too, because you have one group saying, Well, those are that's the other group that they're doing that too, and so it doesn't have anything to do with us, and they don't want to act in concert. Of course, that's something that will have to be overcome if anything is ever to be done about this. Richard Landes: Well, that's one of the reasons that we're launching Infidel Awareness Month because there are six plus billion infidels in the world. They just don't know that they are Robert Spencer: Yeah. Richard Landes: being targeted by the same force and that it is in their interest to start, you know, identifying and banding together. Robert Spencer: Good. Bravo. More power to you. This is what is absolutely needed. This is something actually that I've had a jihad watch from the beginning that people would tell me, particularly some forces within various churches, that the the Palestinians, you know, they have a case and you should stand with Palestinian Christians who stand with the Muslims against Israel. And I always have consistently stood for all the victims of jihad, including Israel, including the Palestinian Christians, whether they are aware of who their real oppressor is or not, including Hindus, Buddhists and Myanmar, all of the people that the Islamic jihad targets. And I think that I'm proud of the fact that we're one of the only sites opposing jihad that takes that comprehensive view. Richard Landes: So listen, as we wrap up, can you give a brief description of how best to access your work? And then we will make sure that all those links are up at the site when we put your talk. Robert Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. I'm at jihadwatch dot org, which still tracks jihad activity all around the world in all its forms every day. Richard Landes: How long is that gone? Robert Spencer: That's twenty-three years now. And every Richard Landes: What? Robert Spencer: day for 23 years, that's what I've been doing. And then I have 32 books out and another coming next year, as I just mentioned. You can find those at Amazon. The latest is called The Tragedy of Islam, Failure and Excuses. about how Islam actually has failed both for individuals and for societies. And that is available now. And at Jihadwatch R S on Twitter, there's also a Facebook page and a video site, Jihadwatch Video. Richard Landes: Excellent, excellent. Thank you so much for your time and Robert Spencer: Thank you for talking to you. Richard Landes: your knowledge. Robert Spencer: Thank you, much appreciated. Richard Landes: All right. Thank you, Robert.