Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BURN NOTICE: A DOZEN DEAD, THOUSANDS HOMELESS, SUSPECT FILMED FIRE FIGHTERS AFTER SETTING DEADLY PALISADES BLAZE

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BURN NOTICE: A DOZEN DEAD, THOUSANDS HOMELESS, SUSPECT FILMED FIRE FIGHTERS AFTER SETTING DEADLY PALISADES BLAZE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: News tonight burn Notice a dozen dead that we know of,
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  Speaker 2: thousands left homeless, and now we learn the suspect filmed
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: firefighters after setting the one and only deadly Palisades blaze
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  Speaker 2: that just ate up property, homes, churches, synagogues and people.
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  Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 3: People said there's a fire in your area, and that's
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: when I ran upstairs to see if I could see
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  Speaker 3: anything in softlings everywhere and realized that we didn't really
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  Speaker 3: have a second long group.
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  Speaker 4: And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us
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  Speaker 4: have covered.
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  Speaker 1: Nothing left and people.
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  Speaker 2: You start a fire and a death occurs, that's a felony.
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  Speaker 1: And I Am not going to be happy until.
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  Speaker 2: These these perps are apprehended in charge to the max.
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  Speaker 2: Is that finally happening tonight A bombshell in the Palisades
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  Speaker 2: fire case.
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  Speaker 1: I want you to hear the US attorney.
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  Speaker 5: As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned.
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  Speaker 5: Victims perished in the smoke and flames, homes where cherished
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  Speaker 5: family memories and belongings were turned to rubble in ash.
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  Speaker 5: The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a
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  Speaker 5: war zone. Thousands of people are forced to evacuate, tho
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  Speaker 5: homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt.
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  Speaker 2: It's one thing to hear the US attorney speaking about
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  Speaker 2: what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an
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  Speaker 2: actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Leidecker Stephanie formerly of
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  Speaker 2: LA She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight,
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  Speaker 2: founder CEO of k T Studios. Stephanie, with your background,
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  Speaker 2: this must have felt like a movie production, except it
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  Speaker 2: was real. And you have your son. You're a single mom,
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  Speaker 2: You've got a son. You have to say what happened, Stephanie.
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  Speaker 4: You know, I was just working from home. I lived
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  Speaker 4: right off of Sunset at the time, and I started
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  Speaker 4: noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house,
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  Speaker 4: and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And
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  Speaker 4: I was on a work zoom and I went outside,
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  Speaker 4: and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming. And
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  Speaker 4: if anyone knows that area sort of by Temescal Canyon
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  Speaker 4: in Sunset, it is gridlock on a good day. So
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  Speaker 4: suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and you know, people were
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  Speaker 4: abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot,
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  Speaker 4: which I understood because it felt as though there was
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  Speaker 4: a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes, and my son,
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  Speaker 4: you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from
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  Speaker 4: his school and we were the lucky ones. You know,
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  Speaker 4: the structure that I was living in remained, by the
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  Speaker 4: grace of God. But I can promise you so many
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  Speaker 4: of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know,
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  Speaker 4: people who have lived in their home for forty five
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  Speaker 4: plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the
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  Speaker 4: ground and there's no real way to start over. And
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  Speaker 4: to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So
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  Speaker 4: my heart goes out to everyone who is still sort
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  Speaker 4: of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces,
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  Speaker 4: because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are
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  Speaker 4: still living with those who they evacuated to.
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  Speaker 6: Can you imagine. So yeah, hopefully there's some justice to
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  Speaker 6: be had.
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  Speaker 2: Stephanie Laidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning
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  Speaker 2: to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home,
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  Speaker 2: and that's odd in a residential area to suddenly say,
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  Speaker 2: a parking lot out outside your front door completely and
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  Speaker 2: then you look out and see flames.
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  Speaker 1: Where were the flimes?
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  Speaker 4: I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. There
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  Speaker 4: were just up ahead on the top of the hill.
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  Speaker 4: I was, you know, fairly new to the area too,
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  Speaker 4: so I was so ill prepared for this. I went out,
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  Speaker 4: saw the flames and realized everybody who was backing up
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  Speaker 4: on my street was literally trying to evacuate. There's only
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  Speaker 4: one way out. And remember, as people abandon their cars,
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  Speaker 4: fire trucks can't get in, and then residents can't get out.
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  Speaker 4: So you know, it took you know, over six hours
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  Speaker 4: to get you know, a mile and a half because
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  Speaker 4: as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to
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  Speaker 4: smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working
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  Speaker 4: because you don't have satellite reception.
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  Speaker 6: You know it's harrowing kids and pets, and you just
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  Speaker 6: grabbed your phone and went out.
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  Speaker 4: In my case, I didn't assume I would be back
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  Speaker 4: in maybe fifteen minutes, and that this was just a
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  Speaker 4: little something, And boy was I wrong. The devastation is
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  Speaker 4: really unmatched. And listen for firefighters, in law enforcement and
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  Speaker 4: the people who really put their lives on the line
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  Speaker 4: to keep all of us safe.
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  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, you know, Stephanie, you stated that your son,
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  Speaker 2: your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah, I see.
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  Speaker 2: That would throw me over the edge, not knowing did
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  Speaker 2: the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I
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  Speaker 2: get to them? How can I get to them? That's
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  Speaker 2: one of my greatest fears, being separated from them at
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  Speaker 2: a time of emergency, and I can't get to them.
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  Speaker 1: What was going through your mind?
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  Speaker 2: You can see the fire, yeah, and you don't have
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  Speaker 2: your son.
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  Speaker 4: And you can't really communicate, right, So I'm so grateful
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  Speaker 4: that the middle school he was attending, they really went
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  Speaker 4: above and beyond and we're able to evacuate the entire
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  Speaker 4: school to a further location. But again, you don't know
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  Speaker 4: where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And
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  Speaker 4: I will say this, you know, people say this. I
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  Speaker 4: can attest to it now, you know. That is all
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  Speaker 4: that mattered was getting to him. Nothing else did. And
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  Speaker 4: I put my money where my mouth is on that one.
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  Speaker 4: You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives.
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  Speaker 4: Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and
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  Speaker 4: the devastation isn't over yet, So yes, guess getting to
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  Speaker 4: my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him.
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  Speaker 4: I felt in my heart we were divinely guided and
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  Speaker 4: continue to be so to some extent.
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  Speaker 2: You know too. Psycho analyst joining us out all the
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  Speaker 2: California juristiction doctor Bethany Marshall.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: She's the author of deal Breaker. She's currently on.
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  Speaker 2: Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
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  Speaker 2: dot com.
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  Speaker 1: Who are these people?
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  Speaker 2: You hear? Alice is still trying to get everyone out
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  Speaker 2: of her house, trying to save them.
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  Speaker 1: There's six people that she's got to evacuate, two.
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  Speaker 2: Children, two elderly parents for sale, her husband, all the pets,
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  Speaker 2: all of this, all of that, and she looks up
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  Speaker 2: and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses.
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  Speaker 1: She's not even out of the house yet. You know,
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  Speaker 1: who are those people? And Nancy?
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  Speaker 7: This happened so quickly it was like a giant was
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  Speaker 7: standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blow torch. This
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  Speaker 7: was not a fire, This was the whole area being torched.
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  Speaker 7: And that these looters had the time to get there
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  Speaker 7: tells me that, you know, after every like a riot,
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  Speaker 7: a demonstration, a fire. Criminals move in very quickly afterwards,
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  Speaker 7: and I think it's a group of people who are
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  Speaker 7: actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the
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  Speaker 7: right opportunity. And Nancy one more thing to place us
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  Speaker 7: into context. It wasn't just the Palisades, it was Altade Nex.
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  Speaker 8: I have an.
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  Speaker 7: Office nearby, and I have colleagues and friends who are
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  Speaker 7: sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming
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  Speaker 7: over the hill. I have patients who want to move
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  Speaker 7: back home. They could rebuild the fires that the houses
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  Speaker 7: they've lost, but there's no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's
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  Speaker 7: no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community.
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  Speaker 6: So it's not just.
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  Speaker 7: The destruction of each individual home, it's the destruction of everything.
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  Speaker 6: And I have one patient who had a.
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  Speaker 1: Million dollar home. The insurance the.
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  Speaker 7: Insurance company offered her two hundred thousand dollars to rebuild
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  Speaker 7: the home and she can't do it with that.
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  Speaker 2: In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about,
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  Speaker 2: at least twelve people die and now.
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  Speaker 1: Who did it? Just I hope you're sitting down listen.
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  Speaker 5: Today we are announcing the arrest of twenty nine year
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  Speaker 5: old Jonathan Winderneck for igniting a fire that ultimately burned
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  Speaker 5: down the Policies earlier this year, killing twelve people, destroying
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  Speaker 5: more than sixteen hundred structures, both homes and businesses, and
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  Speaker 5: damaging over one thousand more buildings.
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  Speaker 1: Who is this guy?
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  Speaker 2: And why why burn a notice? How can we prove
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  Speaker 2: and our sin first? Is very difficult to do. You
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  Speaker 2: have to prove first of all.
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  Speaker 1: That a crime occurred, that this was not some sort
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  Speaker 1: of an.
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  Speaker 2: Accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who
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  Speaker 2: in the world would cause such an incident, claiming the
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  Speaker 2: lives of at least twelve and ruining literally thousands of acres,
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  Speaker 2: ripping people from their homes, and they can never go back.
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  Speaker 1: Who is this guy?
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  Speaker 9: Growing up in France, Renderneck is now living in Pacific
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  Speaker 9: Palisades working as a uber driver. In the fall, Renderneck
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  Speaker 9: feeds Chad Gpt a detailed blending imagery of a dystopian
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  Speaker 9: painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly, fire, fear,
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  Speaker 9: rich people and the poor. A month later, he tells
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  Speaker 9: a family member he burned his Bible and describes it
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  Speaker 9: to chat Gpt as liberating as the year comes to
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  Speaker 9: an end. His last Passengers of twenty twenty four described
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  Speaker 9: the twenty nine year old as agitated and angry.
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  Speaker 2: I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family member.
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  Speaker 2: He burned his Bible and he said it was liberating,
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  Speaker 2: and he is relentlessly searching chat gpt. He blends an
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  Speaker 2: imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts fire, fear,
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  Speaker 2: rich people and poor, and the fire.
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  Speaker 1: Is looming down on all of them. That's his work.
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  Speaker 1: He created that, Sidney Sumner. That's absolutely cool.
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  Speaker 10: Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt,
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  Speaker 10: so he asked chat gpt, this AI service, to create
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  Speaker 10: an image of a city essentially burning down. So it
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  Speaker 10: created twelve different shots, and you see the fire pearing
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  Speaker 10: through this city and people running out of the city
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  Speaker 10: into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing.
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  Speaker 2: It is disturbing, and I would say probative that it
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  Speaker 2: proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of
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  Speaker 2: this jurisdiction, try a lawyer, attorney, a consultant, Dina. If
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  Speaker 2: they want to make these charges stick, they're going to
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  Speaker 2: need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming
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  Speaker 2: down on all parts of some dystopian city.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to need more than that, absolutely.
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  Speaker 11: I mean the fact that he wants this image, and
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  Speaker 11: also the fact that he listened to a song, which
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  Speaker 11: I'm sure you'll talk about as well. You know, people's
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  Speaker 11: aren't aren't great, you know, motivation in court, you know,
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  Speaker 11: presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to, as
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  Speaker 11: you said, Arson, is going to be very difficult to prove.
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  Speaker 11: And this, you know, is how somebody enjoys their music
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  Speaker 11: or what images they like to see. That's going to
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  Speaker 11: be hard to connect the dots to a jury.
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  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, this is what the US
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  Speaker 2: attorney says happened.
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  Speaker 1: Let's hear it from the horses mouth.
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  Speaker 5: After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Poli seats, Rinderneck
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  Speaker 5: parked his car and tried and failed to contact a
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  Speaker 5: former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail,
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  Speaker 5: took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltime up and listened
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: to a rap song whose music video including objects being
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  Speaker 5: lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this song
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  Speaker 5: and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading
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  Speaker 5: up to the Lochman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year,
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  Speaker 5: environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it true?
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  Speaker 2: Sydney Summer Crime Stories investigative reporter that he listened to
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  Speaker 2: this song over and over and over and it's.
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  Speaker 1: All about burning, burning things down.
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  Speaker 10: Yes, Rendernick listened to this song repeatedly in the days
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  Speaker 10: leading up to the Lachman fire, a song that.
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  Speaker 1: He was playing on Loop.
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  Speaker 2: Let's listen to it. But he played that over and
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: over and over on Loop.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: That from at Josman.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: So the say is going to need more than what
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: he was listening to in his ear pod. And they're
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: They're gonna need hard evidence to prove it. Arson case.
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  Speaker 1: Guys joining me right now.
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  Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel nine, Florida. She just
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: walked out a federal court a few hours ago for
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: she observed the suspect at his first court appear at
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, what happened?
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  Speaker 12: We just got out of this federal courthouse here in
• 14:36
  Speaker 12: downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing, and what the
• 14:40
  Speaker 12: judge decided is that he is too much of a
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  Speaker 12: flight risk to be allowed bond, so he will remain
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  Speaker 12: behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred them
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  Speaker 12: back to LA There is another hearing now on October seventeenth. Well,
• 14:55
  Speaker 12: they will present some more of that evidence, not preliminary hearing,
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  Speaker 12: but today the judge was concerned about his mental state
• 15:03
  Speaker 12: and his living arrangements.
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  Speaker 8: He had been living in.
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  Speaker 12: Florida for about the last five months, living with his
• 15:10
  Speaker 12: sister and brother in law, but in the last month,
• 15:13
  Speaker 12: two nine one one calls were made from that home.
• 15:17
  Speaker 8: The first call came about.
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  Speaker 12: September seventeenth, where the family members told them there was
• 15:23
  Speaker 12: a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn
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  Speaker 12: their house down. Now, just a week later, another nine
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  Speaker 12: to one one call from that home where his father
• 15:34
  Speaker 12: said that he had a gun and was threatening to
• 15:38
  Speaker 12: shoot his brother in law if his brother in law
• 15:41
  Speaker 12: started to come towards him.
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  Speaker 8: And he needed to do that in self defense.
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  Speaker 12: So the family really put painting a picture for us
• 15:49
  Speaker 12: here of a defining mental state.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Shannon Butler, don't know Shannon Butler joining us ives
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  Speaker 2: he had reported WFTV Channel nine, Florida. You said, the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: judge stayed the suspect is a flight risk, which leads
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: to me to my first question, what's he doing in Florida.
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  Speaker 2: If he can make it all the way from California
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: he drive his ubercar there?
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  Speaker 12: Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida.
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  Speaker 12: But the judge said, he also has ties to France.
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  Speaker 12: It's where another brother and his father lived. He lived
• 16:25
  Speaker 12: there for some time. He even speaks French. They were
• 16:28
  Speaker 12: concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made
• 16:31
  Speaker 12: some comments that he may go try to live in Bali.
• 16:34
  Speaker 8: So all of those things.
• 16:35
  Speaker 12: Oh another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could
• 16:39
  Speaker 12: not find his passport.
• 16:41
  Speaker 8: It was lost.
• 16:42
  Speaker 12: That of course, raising quite a concern for the judge.
• 16:44
  Speaker 12: When you don't know where your passport is. They said, well,
• 16:47
  Speaker 12: what is lost could be found.
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  Speaker 2: Shannon, Ball are joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon.
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  Speaker 2: He grew up in France, he lived there many many years.
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  Speaker 2: Then he goes to Pacific palis As. I don't know
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: what occurred in between that France and Pacific Palace. Now
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: he's in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: uber driver. As a matter of fact, according to the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: federal government, just before he started the fire that turned
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Off his first Uber passenger of the year.
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  Speaker 2: He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: a treasure trove for prosecutors. But let me understand, he's
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: not getting bond.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 17:33
  Speaker 8: That is correct.
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  Speaker 12: You will be made here in Orlando and tell another
• 17:37
  Speaker 12: hearing where he has for evidence here on October seventeenth.
• 17:41
  Speaker 12: After that, it remains to be seen when he will
• 17:43
  Speaker 12: then head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy,
• 17:47
  Speaker 12: these are just the beginning of what could be more
• 17:49
  Speaker 12: and more charges. Right now, facing a mandatory minimum of
• 17:52
  Speaker 12: five years up to.
• 17:56
  Speaker 8: Twenty or so.
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  Speaker 12: But now they're looking at the possibility of twenty to
• 18:01
  Speaker 12: the death penalty because I remember a dozen deaths there
• 18:04
  Speaker 12: in California.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, a dozen.
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  Speaker 2: If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: know what will. And I'm gonna get into it with
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Dina Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder. But
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court?
• 18:18
  Speaker 12: So he walked in in a red jumpsuit, he was
• 18:21
  Speaker 12: a little bit disheveled.
• 18:22
  Speaker 8: He has long hair, he was disheveled.
• 18:26
  Speaker 12: He did engage with his public defender quite a bit,
• 18:30
  Speaker 12: sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at.
• 18:33
  Speaker 8: What the prosecutors were saying.
• 18:35
  Speaker 12: The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him
• 18:41
  Speaker 12: breaking up with a girl just before he allegedly started
• 18:44
  Speaker 12: this fire, that he broke up with her and he
• 18:47
  Speaker 12: was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends,
• 18:50
  Speaker 12: didn't have a network, and that's kind of when things
• 18:53
  Speaker 12: started to go downhill.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Shannon, stop, stop right there. You think I care.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: He broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: has never.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Been dumped at least once.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: We've all been dumped by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: So what wait, he is in a bad place. What
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: are you saying to me? He was in a bad place.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: He had a car, he had.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: EarPods, he had a full stomach, a place to stay,
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  Speaker 2: gasoline in his car.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: You know people around the world. That means he's in
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the top one percent of people in the world. So
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: what do you mean, He's.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: In a bad place, so bad he had to kill
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: twelve people and destroyed the line. Did you hear Stephanie Lydecker,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: her whole place gone, her.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Son evacuated, She didn't even know where he was.
• 19:45
  Speaker 12: Yeah, that's what the prosecutor has basically said that what
• 19:50
  Speaker 12: has happened to him was not didn't really give a
• 19:54
  Speaker 12: good excuse for what happened here. They said when they
• 19:58
  Speaker 12: approached him and started to interview him back in January,
• 20:02
  Speaker 12: that he told a lot of lies to those investigators.
• 20:06
  Speaker 12: They wouldn't he wouldn't answer questions like what kind of
• 20:08
  Speaker 12: cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court they found
• 20:12
  Speaker 12: out not only did they know he had one gun
• 20:14
  Speaker 12: that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a
• 20:18
  Speaker 12: zipper on it, a child's toy, that's where he was
• 20:21
  Speaker 12: keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on
• 20:24
  Speaker 12: the stand and said, just today they got some evidence
• 20:27
  Speaker 12: back that he had a second gun in his possession
• 20:30
  Speaker 12: that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very
• 20:33
  Speaker 12: honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason
• 20:36
  Speaker 12: they thought he should stay here behind bars.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Straight back out to Shannon Butler, WFTV.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Channel nine, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: This is a huge break in the case.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: It's very hard to determine, first weather case is ares
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: because the evidence.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Is all burned up.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: And then if it is arson intentional, who did it.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: did the right thing keeping him behind bars.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: But you stated that he was You said shaking his head.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: his head. Yes, correct, correct? Did he say anything in court?
• 21:22
  Speaker 8: No, he didn't.
• 21:23
  Speaker 12: The only thing that he said was the judge asked
• 21:26
  Speaker 12: him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave
• 21:29
  Speaker 12: him the pronunciation of his name. But that's all he
• 21:32
  Speaker 12: said in this about an hour and a half hearing this.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Morning, Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: what the prosecutors were saying.
• 21:41
  Speaker 12: Yeah, he shook his head when they started talking about
• 21:44
  Speaker 12: his ex girlfriend. That on New Year's Eve, right before
• 21:48
  Speaker 12: this fire started, he had text his ex.
• 21:52
  Speaker 8: She did not answer.
• 21:53
  Speaker 12: He had text somebody else that said no, I don't
• 21:56
  Speaker 12: want to hang out I need some space. And then
• 21:57
  Speaker 12: a third person he texted to hang out with on
• 22:01
  Speaker 12: New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he
• 22:05
  Speaker 12: was shaking his head during that and a couple of
• 22:07
  Speaker 12: other times when they were talking about those incidents inside
• 22:11
  Speaker 12: the home where he was living.
• 22:12
  Speaker 8: Nancy let me point out too that.
• 22:14
  Speaker 12: The brother in law and the sister were so afraid
• 22:17
  Speaker 12: inside their home. They wanted to get him out, and
• 22:21
  Speaker 12: police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how
• 22:23
  Speaker 12: you evict somebody, but they were so scared. In the meantime,
• 22:27
  Speaker 12: they moved out of their own home, and he was
• 22:29
  Speaker 12: living in that house by himself because the brother in
• 22:33
  Speaker 12: law and the sister did not want to live with
• 22:35
  Speaker 12: him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just
• 22:38
  Speaker 12: not in the right state of mind given the last
• 22:40
  Speaker 12: couple of things that had happened.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Wow, his sister and her husband and children move out
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: of their own home rather than live with him there.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Out of fear.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, I see a case beginning the building.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Of a case. It's not just some dystopian painting. He
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: created a chat GPT.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: guy burning up money, starting a fire in a trash can,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: and you watch it over and over and over, and
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: hear what the US attorney has to say.
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: It took the defendant several tries to try tack nine
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: to one one to report the fire. He fled the
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines,
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: driving in the opposite direction to fight the fire. To
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: fight the fire. While the Lackman fire burned, the defendant
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: walked up the same trail from earlier that night to
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to take
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: short videos of the scene.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: To Dina Dahl joining as veteran trial lawyer, out of
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged purp calling nine to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: one one over and and over from the scene where
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the fire started.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: That speaks to me, that means something.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: investigated and prosecuted.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: The purp himself called nine one one. He's a millionaire.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying all romanesque
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: on the lawn across the street.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: From his home, which was in flames.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: After about four or five minutes, he has, oh, yeah,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: my wife's in there. Yeah, he called nine one one,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: just like this guy's calling a nine one one.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: What about it, Dina Dahl?
• 24:35
  Speaker 11: I think what you said there alleged. We got to
• 24:37
  Speaker 11: remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and
• 24:40
  Speaker 11: that's not nothing right. This applies regardless of how bad
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: we think the crime is. And just because he called that,
• 24:48
  Speaker 11: I mean to your point where you said earlier, Arson
• 24:51
  Speaker 11: has to be intentional, it has to be malicious. The
• 24:54
  Speaker 11: fact that he called so many times. His defense attorney,
• 24:59
  Speaker 11: I am sure will argue that if they can, if
• 25:02
  Speaker 11: they're even going to conceive that he lit the fire,
• 25:05
  Speaker 11: it was accidental, and that is the evidence of him
• 25:10
  Speaker 11: trying to call so many times. Was him trying to
• 25:12
  Speaker 11: get the fire stopped. Not showing guilt but actually showing
• 25:18
  Speaker 11: his innocence.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, Stephanie Leidecker joining us. She and her boy
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Did you know in between calling nine one one, he
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: was video he was leaving, he was leaving the scene.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Then he sees fire trucks coming, went ooh, I want
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: a video that he.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: videos them risking their lives to fight the fire.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if I can add a felon
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: account of PERV. But you're leaving the scene of a
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: guys and women about to risk their lives.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: One may die.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: I better get that on video, and goes back while
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: all this is happening. People have been evacuated, they're dying,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: and he's videoing it.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: That don't bother you because it bothers me.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally, if in
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: fact this is what he did allegedly allegedly allegedly then
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: to offer to help firefighters to help right the blaze
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: that he'll be a hero. Will he be the guy
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: that is now sunnily relevant because he's destroyed so many lives.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: I personally would like him to come talk to you
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: about it. I'll hide behind you with backup. But if
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: this is true, it is so devastating that one person
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: could do this to so many.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: he want to pretend he was the hero? Analyze his acts?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: So he goes to the scene before the fire starts.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: He's there before the fire starts. The fire starts, he
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: tries to call nine one one, then he leaves. He
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: then sees firetrucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: gonna go video them while they fight the blaze. And
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: he stays there and takes video as his rap song
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: plays over and over and he can see in the
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: video a guy starting fires. And we've heard from Shannon Butler.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: About how distraught he was he had no one to
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: hang out with on New Year's Eve.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Really, whoa I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: absolutely everything and also the loss of life. It's unimaginable.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: what life was meant for him. He had a job.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: To your point, he had EarPods. If in fact this
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: is true, and amily goes to show that we are
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: that disconnected that on New Year's Day, the start of.
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: A fresh year. This person decides.
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: That he's going to take matters into his own hands
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: and have some dystopian photo of Look at these videos
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: been completely wiped off the mat It's literally just chimneys
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: and abandoned cars, and you know, the ripple effect is real.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: you how many neighbors and friends I speak to that
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: money to start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen,
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: I'm one of them that was like, I'm out, there's
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: a new life someplace else, because I'm too scared to
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: and they have to now stay and figure out how
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: to push on in this town that is now still
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: very far away from being inhabitable.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
• 29:14
  Speaker 9: During calls, Renderneck asked chat GPT, are you at fault
• 29:18
  Speaker 9: if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes? Renderneck
• 29:21
  Speaker 9: gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail
• 29:24
  Speaker 9: that night, and where he was when he called Renderneck
• 29:28
  Speaker 9: claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but
• 29:30
  Speaker 9: location data shows while speaking with nine one one he's
• 29:34
  Speaker 9: just thirty feet from the fire's origin.
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: He lied about where he was when he first saw
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: a hiking trail. Geolocation data for the nine to one
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: one calls showed that he was standing above the fire
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: and in clearing, merely thirty feet from the blaze as
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: it rapidly grew.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Asking jat GPT, is it my fault if I started
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: a fire with a cigarette?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Right out to Moses.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Jrdulian Law Group,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: former supervising detective with the LAPD, and you can find
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: him at Moses Castillo Investigations dot com.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Really starting a fire? Is it my fault?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: If I killed twelve people with a cigarette, started a fire,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: then I ran from the scene. Then I decided to
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: one of them would die. I mean, what is a
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: jury going to make of this? Do you believe that's
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: going to be the defense? Moses Castillo, I accidentally started
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: a fire with a cigarette with all this other extrinsic
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence.
• 30:40
  Speaker 13: Okay, Naty, this is no fireworks now lighting, no power lanes,
• 30:43
  Speaker 13: just one man with one lighter and a trail of
• 30:45
  Speaker 13: digital brick comes. He filmed this fire, he chased the
• 30:49
  Speaker 13: fire trucks. Any I said, reliable, that's not remorse, that's rehearsal.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo, I mean
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: that he.
• 30:57
  Speaker 13: Pre planned this, he intended to do this. What I
• 31:00
  Speaker 13: do believe it's going to be very challenging for the
• 31:04
  Speaker 13: government to prove their case is the fact that the
• 31:07
  Speaker 13: fire department, they thought they put this far out, and
• 31:11
  Speaker 13: seven six or seven days later the wind reignited. I
• 31:15
  Speaker 13: think that's going to be a bigger issue for the
• 31:17
  Speaker 13: government's case.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: So let me give you a comparison, Moses Castello. I
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: shoot you in the leg.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I aim for your heart, but I get your leg,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and you linger in the hospital for six days. And
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: then the gunshot went into your leg, causes a pulmonary
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: amblysm and it goes to your brain and you die.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: So what I'm not going to be charged with murder?
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Think about it? Moses.
• 31:43
  Speaker 13: Answer, Well, you bring a very good point and yes,
• 31:46
  Speaker 13: that person should be charged for verdict because it was me.
• 31:49
  Speaker 13: But in any event, here I do believe that there
• 31:51
  Speaker 13: are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence and digital footprints that can't
• 31:55
  Speaker 13: get him convicted. I'm just saying that defense is going
• 31:58
  Speaker 13: to argue, you know, the department would have done their
• 32:01
  Speaker 13: job properly, this would have happened. I think it's going
• 32:04
  Speaker 13: to be a defensilet on by it. I think he
• 32:07
  Speaker 13: definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something
• 32:12
  Speaker 13: like this, and this is just this should be treated
• 32:15
  Speaker 13: as a violent crime, not just bars him by itself.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: who is a private eye there in California, is saying.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Listen to what the US attorney said.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: So that fire started on January first, and it smoldered
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: underground for about a week until on January seventh, heavy
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: wins caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground,
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: causing what became known as the Palisades Fired, one of
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: the most destructive wall fires in Los Angeles City.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: History and joining us Nicole Brock. She has a veteran
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: firefighter and a Mt. Arson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Nicole brought what is a hold over fire?
• 33:13
  Speaker 14: Well, Hollover fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares. They are
• 33:17
  Speaker 14: the fires that once we.
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: Believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire.
• 33:21
  Speaker 14: They have a way of rekindling, and a lot of jurisdictions,
• 33:25
  Speaker 14: particularly like mine, we call them rekindle fires.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Nicole Brock.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: The theory is, according to the defense, this was an
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: accidental fire started by a cigarette.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: How do you prove arson?
• 33:36
  Speaker 14: So again, arsons are difficult to prove, and to link
• 33:40
  Speaker 14: it back to one cigarette is going.
• 33:41
  Speaker 8: To be hard.
• 33:42
  Speaker 14: The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this
• 33:47
  Speaker 14: particular situation is the ignition piece.
• 33:50
  Speaker 8: How many ignition points.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: The things that they're going to be looking for are fuel.
• 33:54
  Speaker 8: Was their fuel that was used?
• 33:56
  Speaker 14: And that's easy to detect too, because you'll see a
• 33:59
  Speaker 14: different charring that comes differently than you will see with
• 34:03
  Speaker 14: something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that, unfortunately,
• 34:08
  Speaker 14: with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have
• 34:12
  Speaker 14: a hard time with trying to prove his case and
• 34:17
  Speaker 14: that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started a cigarette.
• 34:22
  Speaker 14: All of his actions point back to Arson's activity.
• 34:26
  Speaker 8: Arson.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: These are things that Arson is do.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Fly
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: for her home destroyed in the Palisades fire.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Alexandra, thank you for being.
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: With us, Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Alexandra. What happened that day?
• 34:45
  Speaker 15: I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire
• 34:50
  Speaker 15: and the seven day gap. So in the morning, just
• 34:55
  Speaker 15: before lunchtime around eleven those of us. I live on
• 34:58
  Speaker 15: a bluff below where the fire started, and if you
• 35:01
  Speaker 15: looked up to the top of the crest of the
• 35:04
  Speaker 15: hills that were behind us, you could see smoke and
• 35:08
  Speaker 15: fire in our neighborhood.
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: Is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires.
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: This felt different.
• 35:15
  Speaker 15: And the thing is is from that fire, from the
• 35:17
  Speaker 15: first that they put out, there had been warnings all
• 35:20
  Speaker 15: week that we were going to have I mean, the
• 35:22
  Speaker 15: Santa Ana winds are a thing we know about them.
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: We were being warned. So I mean, if in fact
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: this is Arson, and I kind of.
• 35:30
  Speaker 15: Agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a
• 35:32
  Speaker 15: long time for a reignition of a fire. But the
• 35:36
  Speaker 15: winds were horrible even in the earlier part of the day,
• 35:40
  Speaker 15: and the fire started at around eleven and change, and
• 35:45
  Speaker 15: by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere. So
• 35:49
  Speaker 15: I left fairly early because I've grown up there, I
• 35:53
  Speaker 15: know our community, and the fire just felt different this time,
• 35:56
  Speaker 15: and that you're now seeing images of what remained of
• 36:00
  Speaker 15: my home and my entire neighborhood.
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: ten or eleven at night.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different?
• 36:13
  Speaker 15: Something about the speed When I walked outside and my
• 36:16
  Speaker 15: driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see
• 36:20
  Speaker 15: the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement
• 36:24
  Speaker 15: of the fire coming down the hill, and it was
• 36:26
  Speaker 15: already windy. It just had there was just a feeling
• 36:30
  Speaker 15: of a greater threat. And people usually with us, we
• 36:34
  Speaker 15: have a fire warning. We all tend to evacuate if
• 36:38
  Speaker 15: we know there's a brush fire. People were running around
• 36:41
  Speaker 15: in our you know, in their putting their animals in
• 36:44
  Speaker 15: their car, and I just looked around and it just
• 36:47
  Speaker 15: felt different.
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: It felt a little more ominous. The smoke was darker.
• 36:54
  Speaker 6: It just I don't know.
• 36:55
  Speaker 15: I think growing up there, you just know it was.
• 36:58
  Speaker 15: I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation
• 37:01
  Speaker 15: was going to be more than we had seen. I
• 37:02
  Speaker 15: certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just the
• 37:05
  Speaker 15: winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up at.
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: Night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just,
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: I don't know. I think those of us who lived there,
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: we just had a feeling that it knew.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: are driving down the inter site lets seeing you look
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: over there and you see a brush fire and you're
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: not afraid.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: It doesn't put you in fear.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: As opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: It was just a feeling.
• 37:46
  Speaker 7: It was instinct, Nancy, It's a survival instinct, you know.
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about.
• 37:51
  Speaker 7: An hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades,
• 37:54
  Speaker 7: and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were
• 37:58
  Speaker 7: so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow
• 38:01
  Speaker 7: the roof off of my house. I had a very
• 38:04
  Speaker 7: eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: I heard about the Palisades and this purpse is alleged
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: purp Nancy. You know what I think is so terrifying
• 38:13
  Speaker 7: about this is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said,
• 38:18
  Speaker 7: I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is
• 38:22
  Speaker 7: a compulsion, just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging,
• 38:28
  Speaker 7: and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the
• 38:32
  Speaker 7: perpetrator cannot self regulate, and the only way to neutralize
• 38:37
  Speaker 7: the feeling is to engage in the act, and in
• 38:40
  Speaker 7: this case it is pyromania.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Alexandra, I for joining us, who lost her home? What happened?
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: You see the fire, You realize people are evacuating. You
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: know in your bones, I could die, my family could die.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: What did you do?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 38:59
  Speaker 15: I was My biggest regret is I just left. I
• 39:03
  Speaker 15: had more time than I realized. But listening to you,
• 39:06
  Speaker 15: I think you're right. I am a pretty strong willed person.
• 39:10
  Speaker 15: I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was
• 39:14
  Speaker 15: not going to end well, and we had my daughter
• 39:18
  Speaker 15: had bunny rabbits.
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: I put them in my car and I just drove away.
• 39:23
  Speaker 6: But I also had friends.
• 39:24
  Speaker 15: Who lived so there are a lot of different pockets
• 39:27
  Speaker 15: of the Palisades. For those people who don't know the Palisades,
• 39:30
  Speaker 15: everybody thinks it's just a small, little niche neighborhood in
• 39:32
  Speaker 15: La It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods, and
• 39:36
  Speaker 15: some people live up on the hill. One of my
• 39:38
  Speaker 15: friends who lived up on the hill called me as
• 39:41
  Speaker 15: she was driving down the hill in her car caught fire.
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: So I didn't want to wait. But because I didn't wait,
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: I lost all of my belongings. I had no time.
• 39:51
  Speaker 15: I just put our animals in the car and I
• 39:53
  Speaker 15: drove away, and my assistant who worked for me, was
• 39:57
  Speaker 15: stuck in traffic and couldn't get out.
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: I mean, I feel like it was about for me.
• 40:05
  Speaker 15: I just felt it was more important that I got
• 40:07
  Speaker 15: out than I got my things out, And so everything
• 40:11
  Speaker 15: perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little
• 40:15
  Speaker 15: bit longer and were able to get some of their
• 40:16
  Speaker 15: personal belongings out, but you know, their lives were at risk.
• 40:21
  Speaker 15: I just felt like it was more important to leave.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Doctor Kimmel Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner Terrett County
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Brenette School of Medicine at TCU,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Morgue Dodgor Crowns.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: In my experience of.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are a highly technical case
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: do that. Typically victims die in three ways. They either suffocate,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: they actually burned to death, or an object falls on
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: them and they die because of blunt force trauma.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns. People that die a smoke inhalation, they
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: live for a period of time. They know they're dying.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, Yes, that's correct.
• 41:14
  Speaker 16: When the smoke is building up, as many of the
• 41:17
  Speaker 16: people have it testified to today, that your eyes burn,
• 41:21
  Speaker 16: your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucous production, you're coughing,
• 41:25
  Speaker 16: you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke,
• 41:29
  Speaker 16: you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is
• 41:35
  Speaker 16: causing you your body to displace oxygen, and now you're
• 41:38
  Speaker 16: no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues, and eventually
• 41:42
  Speaker 16: you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide and
• 41:46
  Speaker 16: your tissues will die, and then you die. And this
• 41:49
  Speaker 16: takes place over several minutes to even a half hour
• 41:53
  Speaker 16: or so, depending on how high the smoke is, how
• 41:56
  Speaker 16: much carbon monoxide there is. So yes, you're very aware
• 42:00
  Speaker 16: of what's going on during that time period, trying to
• 42:02
  Speaker 16: get out, trying to escape, coughing, gagging, whatever, but you
• 42:07
  Speaker 16: can't get out, and then you're correct. The other ones
• 42:09
  Speaker 16: are things collapsed fall on you and pin you and
• 42:12
  Speaker 16: then you burn to that, or you just get surrounded
• 42:15
  Speaker 16: by the fire and you burn from that as well,
• 42:17
  Speaker 16: and then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain,
• 42:21
  Speaker 16: and you're in pain for several seconds to a few
• 42:23
  Speaker 16: minutes until you finally succumbed to shock and pass out.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Alexandrewfifer joining us, who lost her entire home in the
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Palisades fire. That could have been you what doctor Kendall
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Crown's just described. I hope you never feel remorse about
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: not getting your things.
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: Makes me so emotional, Nancy.
• 42:47
  Speaker 15: But here's what a lot of people don't say, and
• 42:49
  Speaker 15: I said this earlier on when this happened, is that
• 42:53
  Speaker 15: this happened in the day. If this had happened at
• 42:56
  Speaker 15: night and the fire had started at six pm, not
• 43:00
  Speaker 15: eleven am, think about how many people have no landlines,
• 43:05
  Speaker 15: take sleeping pills, don't check that, turn their cell phones
• 43:09
  Speaker 15: off at night. I mean, of course any loss of life.
• 43:13
  Speaker 15: Nobody should have died in this fire, but imagine if
• 43:17
  Speaker 15: it had happened at night, and if it had burned
• 43:19
  Speaker 15: and escalated in the middle of the night.
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't.
• 43:25
  Speaker 15: I'm here and that I can, you know, have time
• 43:29
  Speaker 15: with my family following this, and the things don't matter.
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: You're right, but it's still it doesn't leave your head.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: And now we remember American heroes, the heroes that evacuated
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: saving their lives and the lives of others, the fire
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: fighters who raised their own lives to save the lives of.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Others, and the Palisades Fire.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: And tonight we not only as justice unfolds, we pray
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that justice unfolds and rains down on this case.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Good night, friend,