Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Connection Every Child Needs [with Prof. Nicholas Epley]

Transcript

The Connection Every Child Needs [with Prof. Nicholas Epley] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where you
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: get real parenting solutions every single day. Yesterday it was
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: just a wonderful interview conversation with Professor Nicholas Epley from
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the University of Chicago, talking about being a little more
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: social and the well being benefits that come from that,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: plus the gap in our expectations around we think that
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  Speaker 1: interactions aren't going to be fun. They tend to be
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  Speaker 1: amazingly fun. Well, maybe I'm overstating it, but certainly we
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: enjoy interactions even with random people more than we thought.
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  Speaker 1: Today we're going to go deeper into what that means
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  Speaker 1: from a parenting point of view and how we can
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  Speaker 1: deepen relationships that already matter to us. Stay with us.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It's a doctor's Desk episode of Happy Families podcast today
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  Speaker 1: on doctor Justin Coulson. Every Thursday we get into the
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  Speaker 1: parenting science and I couldn't resist my conversation yesterday with
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: doctor Nicholas Epley was so good about his brand new book,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: A Little More Social, that I asked him to stay
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  Speaker 1: on and continue the conversation. Nick, Thanks for continent knewing this.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I want to start today's conversation by not talking about relationships,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: but by actually talking a bit about your personal history.
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  Speaker 1: Yesterday you mentioned you're a father of five, but your
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: family has a unique makeup and there's a there's a
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: somewhat painful but also beautiful story behind it. We you
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: just talked a little bit about how your parenting story evolved,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: specifically in relation to the pain of loss and the
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: blessing of adoption.
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  Speaker 2: So we have five children, three of them actually are adopted,
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  Speaker 2: and we lost a baby along the way as well.
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  Speaker 2: And the research that I've been involved with over the
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  Speaker 2: years has affected my life in many ways. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: nothing has changed the way I lived my life more
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: than this, and small ways, but also in big ways,
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  Speaker 2: such as when pain struck our family got me thinking
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  Speaker 2: a lot about our work. This was in twenty sixteen.
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  Speaker 2: We learned we were pregnant again. My wife was pregnant
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  Speaker 2: and we already had had four children, and three months
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  Speaker 2: we learned that our daughter had down syndrome. We were
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  Speaker 2: not ready for this. We were not expecting this and
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  Speaker 2: really kind of taken it back. We started calling lots
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  Speaker 2: of people who were raising kids without center. We didn't
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  Speaker 2: know what this was like. Every parent we talked to
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  Speaker 2: like almost like they were reading off of a script,
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  Speaker 2: used the word blessing to describe the impact that their
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  Speaker 2: kid had had on their family and in their lives.
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  Speaker 2: And so we, you know, we were getting ready. We're
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  Speaker 2: excited to go on this new adventure with our daughter,
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  Speaker 2: who we'd already named Sophie by this point. And then
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  Speaker 2: at six months July eleventh, twenty sixteen, we lost her.
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  Speaker 2: Six months into my wife's pregnancy, we had a still birth.
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  Speaker 2: It was painful. It was the worst thing that's ever
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  Speaker 2: happened to us. Surely they're our parents listening to this here,
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  Speaker 2: who have gone through this kind of loss and get it.
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  Speaker 2: We struggled with that for a solid year. We were
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  Speaker 2: just kind of in a funk. We couldn't We just
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: couldn't do stuff. We just were in a funk. And
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  Speaker 2: I remember one morning I went into our sun room,
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  Speaker 2: which is down our main floor of their house, of
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  Speaker 2: our house, and Jenners are drinking coffee, and I asked her,
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  Speaker 2: would you consider adopting a child again. We were ready
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  Speaker 2: to go. We were ready to raise a child. There
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  Speaker 2: are still children who need parents. We were ready. We
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  Speaker 2: could do this again. We'd already done it twice. Would
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  Speaker 2: you be would you be interested in doing this? And
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  Speaker 2: without missing a beat, she said, would you be willing
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  Speaker 2: to consider adopting a child without syndrome? And my mind
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  Speaker 2: was not there at that moment. I went all the
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  Speaker 2: way back, like I just went all the way back
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  Speaker 2: a little over a year to the three month period
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  Speaker 2: when we initially got that diagnosis. All this anxiety was
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  Speaker 2: again kind of welling up in me. How would we
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  Speaker 2: handle this? Would we really be able to do this now?
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  Speaker 2: If we adopted? How well with this child I'll be
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  Speaker 2: able to connect with us? Adopting brings all kinds of
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  Speaker 2: additional anxieties, even beyond the normal parenting anxieties. And I
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  Speaker 2: kind of had this realization in that moment that I
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  Speaker 2: was kind of a participant in my own experiment. I
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  Speaker 2: had at that point seen tens of thousands of data
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  Speaker 2: points of people underestimating how positively things would go when
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  Speaker 2: they reached out to connect with another person, And here
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  Speaker 2: I was, I thought, doing the very same kind of thing,
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  Speaker 2: with all of these fears. How are we going to
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  Speaker 2: be able to handle this? How will she respond to us?
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  Speaker 2: Will we really be able to create this kind of
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  Speaker 2: bond that you need with a child, and I decided
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  Speaker 2: that I was doing the same thing that our participants were.
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  Speaker 2: It gave me some data driven courage right to realize
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  Speaker 2: that that bet those fears that I had were probably off,
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  Speaker 2: and here Jen was willing to do this, We had
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  Speaker 2: the resources, we'd be able to do this. Our marriage
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  Speaker 2: was wrong. We thought in the long run this would
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  Speaker 2: work out well and that these fears were just short
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  Speaker 2: term concerns that were likely misplaced that I had, And
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  Speaker 2: so I said, yeah, we can do this, and about
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  Speaker 2: it was about a year later after that that that
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  Speaker 2: we boarded a flight, all of us, whole family, Jen
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  Speaker 2: and I and our four kids at the time, and
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  Speaker 2: boarded a flight to go to China to meet our
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  Speaker 2: daughter Lindsey, who was two at the time, with just
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  Speaker 2: a wonderful smile despite a really, really, really hard start
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  Speaker 2: in life. I remember, actually the first time we met her,
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  Speaker 2: she had her cheeks. Her cheeks were all red, just
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  Speaker 2: rubbed raw, because she'd been crying for a long time
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  Speaker 2: before we before we actually got to her, in the
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  Speaker 2: days leading up to it, I'm sure, but she still
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  Speaker 2: had this amazing smile and she's been a blessing, just
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  Speaker 2: like all the parents who we talked to, said she
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  Speaker 2: would be she's a she's amazing.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing that. It's wonderful. Let's bring this back
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  Speaker 1: to research around relationships and connection. Your book is called
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  Speaker 1: a Little More Social, and I have this belief that
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  Speaker 1: one of the most valuable things that a child can
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  Speaker 1: hear in a school setting when they walk through those
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  Speaker 1: school gates are the words, hey, comesit with us, comesit
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  Speaker 1: with us. For me, that's the that's the be all
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  Speaker 1: and end all in terms of they're going to just
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  Speaker 1: do so well at school if they've got people who
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  Speaker 1: are excited to see them. In our conversation yesterday, we
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  Speaker 1: talked about connection with people that we don't know. Our
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  Speaker 1: expectation talking to a stranger is that it's not going
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  Speaker 1: to go well. It generally does go very well because
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  Speaker 1: people are alter social, and we walk away from those
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  Speaker 1: experiences feeling elevated, feeling positive, feeling glad that we had
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  Speaker 1: that discussion. For all of us, adults and children, when
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  Speaker 1: we're involved in longer term relationships, that ride can be
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  Speaker 1: pretty bumpy. Sometimes the relationships feel great, other times they
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  Speaker 1: don't feel so well. And I'm thinking specifically about children,
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  Speaker 1: maybe even a little bit like Lindsay, who sometimes feel
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  Speaker 1: like they're on the outer. There are kids with all
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  Speaker 1: kinds of diagnoses, all sorts of challenges. There are some
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  Speaker 1: children who are just not that social. They're not the
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  Speaker 1: life of the party, they're not the social butterfly, and
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  Speaker 1: they walk into the school gates and nobody says, come
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  Speaker 1: sit with us. What I'm curious to know is, with
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  Speaker 1: all of your research into mind reading, understanding the way
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  Speaker 1: people think, understanding social relationships, if I'm a parent who
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  Speaker 1: knows that my child is not hearing those words, what
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  Speaker 1: can I do to support them.
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  Speaker 2: That's a tough one. That's a tough one. So our
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  Speaker 2: daughter Lindsay doesn't always hear those words either, even though
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  Speaker 2: I have to say, I think she may be the
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  Speaker 2: most popular kid in school because she has no filter
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  Speaker 2: on her own. Right. Yeah, so that's pretty good. Again.
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  Speaker 2: I think to go back to our conversation yesterday where
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  Speaker 2: I talked about the importance of modeling, I think that
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  Speaker 2: might be an important thing to do to just show
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  Speaker 2: our kids how they can empower themselves to reach out
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  Speaker 2: and connect and how far a hello will go, how much,
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  Speaker 2: you know, even inviting themselves to come and sit down
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  Speaker 2: with somebody else who might be sitting by themselves, right,
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  Speaker 2: how much power they have to actually connect if they try.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's the advice that I would I would
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  Speaker 2: give once they try it, once they reach out and
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  Speaker 2: start engaging, it becomes a habit. Kids can have a
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  Speaker 2: lot of power to connect with other people. They don't
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  Speaker 2: have to wait to be invited. They could find somebody
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  Speaker 2: and try to connect themselves. I guess that's what I
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  Speaker 2: would do. I mean. The other thing that, of course
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  Speaker 2: parents can do is help to structure some of these
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  Speaker 2: things as well. We do that a lot with Lindsay.
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  Speaker 2: So we have a trampoline in the backyard that Lindsay
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  Speaker 2: loves to death, and so do all of the neighbor kids,
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  Speaker 2: And we invite all the neighbor kids over to play
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  Speaker 2: with Lindsay to just help to structure some of those interactions,
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  Speaker 2: just to make them get going. So that's another thing
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  Speaker 2: that sometimes parents can do to help their kids connect,
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  Speaker 2: the structure some of those connections.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about what to
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  Speaker 1: do when social interactions are a little less fulfilling than
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  Speaker 1: we would like. Sometimes the gap isn't a gap at all.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes we predict that it's not going to be great
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  Speaker 1: and it isn't great, and other times we hope that
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be great and it isn't great. Plus
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  Speaker 1: recognizing easy opportunities routinely. Nick Epley's number one go to
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  Speaker 1: for finding great connections. Stay with us, We're back. It's
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast with Professor Nicholas Epley from the
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  Speaker 1: University of Chicago talking about his book A Little More Social.
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  Speaker 1: Nick socialized tricky, maybe even prickly at times. I went
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  Speaker 1: to a function just recently where I was going to
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  Speaker 1: be with the whole lot of people that I know
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  Speaker 1: and enjoy being with, and yet for three hours as
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  Speaker 1: I mingled at the function, I found myself feeling more
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  Speaker 1: and more hollowed out and less and less interested in
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  Speaker 1: what was going on. I wonder if you have any
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  Speaker 1: sense of why it is that sometimes when we're with
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  Speaker 1: people that we really like to connect with, we just
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  Speaker 1: feel a little disconnected what's going on in our minds
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  Speaker 1: and that mind reading process that you were talking about
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  Speaker 1: when this happens.
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  Speaker 2: I think a lot of those situations are cases where
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  Speaker 2: you can't actually have a conversation that connects you very
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  Speaker 2: well with the person, So This often happens at parties
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  Speaker 2: where you've got a whole bunch of people together and
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  Speaker 2: you're all mingling around, but none of those opportunities are
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  Speaker 2: like one on one. They're one with a group of
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  Speaker 2: people and you can't ever really talk to anybody. Actually,
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  Speaker 2: that's probably what's happening in lots of these cases, the
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  Speaker 2: cocktail party or the networking function, where you never really
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  Speaker 2: get a meaningful conversation with somebody. So I think my
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  Speaker 2: suggestion in a case like that, if you're not having
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  Speaker 2: kinds of conversations you would want, would be to try
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  Speaker 2: to engineer them a little bit, try to get away
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  Speaker 2: from the crowd in more of a one on one
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  Speaker 2: situation where you can actually have a meaningful conversation with
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  Speaker 2: somebody and then ask questions that you actually are interested in.
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  Speaker 2: You can ask people something meaningful rather than just sticking
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  Speaker 2: to small talk or chit chat. And we find in
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  Speaker 2: our work that when you do in fact go a
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  Speaker 2: little deeper in your conversation than you would otherwise, those
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  Speaker 2: conversations turn out to be also surprisingly pleasant. They tend
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  Speaker 2: to go better than people expect they will as well.
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  Speaker 2: So you can take control of some of those conversations.
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  Speaker 1: I love your insights, Professor Epley, and you've been wonderfully
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  Speaker 1: generous with your ton Let's wrap up with one final question.
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  Speaker 1: In the book, you talk about how poky pines don't
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  Speaker 1: stab each other even when they close. You talk about
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  Speaker 1: tals as examples of how we can be a little
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  Speaker 1: more social, and people need to read the book to
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  Speaker 1: understand how all of that works. But ultimately you say
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  Speaker 1: that to be a little more social, whether it's for
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  Speaker 1: us or for our children, whether we're modeling it or
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  Speaker 1: just doing it ourselves, because it makes our life richer,
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  Speaker 1: we need to recognize easy opportunities routinely. And each of
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  Speaker 1: those words is a standalone element of how to be
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  Speaker 1: a little more social. We just spent just a couple
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  Speaker 1: of minutes talking about how we recognize easy opportunities routinely.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the recognized part comes from noticing, just bothering to
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  Speaker 2: notice all of the conversations and interactions you're not having.
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  Speaker 2: So you could do this. Just think about yesterday, right,
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  Speaker 2: Think about what you're doing at each hour of the day, right,
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  Speaker 2: and think about how many opportunities you might have had
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  Speaker 2: in each hour to reach out and engage with somebody
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  Speaker 2: that you didn't take right. This could be a conversation,
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  Speaker 2: but it could be passing along a compliment. It could
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  Speaker 2: be reaching out and expressing gratitude to somebody. It could
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  Speaker 2: be picking up the phone and calling an old friend.
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  Speaker 2: Once you start looking for opportunities, but once you start
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  Speaker 2: looking for places where you're making the choice to not
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  Speaker 2: engage with somebody, you start to see the places in
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  Speaker 2: your life where you might actually be able to enrich
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  Speaker 2: your life a little bit more by taking some of
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  Speaker 2: those opportunities that you're already missing. Second is easy. This
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  Speaker 2: doesn't have to be super hard. If you're learning to
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  Speaker 2: exercise a little more, we don't send you out running
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  Speaker 2: a marathon on your first name, right, so you know
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  Speaker 2: where are the spots that are easy for you to
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  Speaker 2: engage with somebody. I ride the train in on my commute.
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  Speaker 2: That's an easy spot for me. I walk into my
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  Speaker 2: office every day. I can smile and say hello to
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  Speaker 2: people on that walk in. I don't have to spend
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: any extra time, and I make that moment a little
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  Speaker 2: more social. I can walk from my office to the
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  Speaker 2: train on the way home, looking for people to compliment.
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  Speaker 2: On my way. I can go on a compliment, walk
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  Speaker 2: on the way home and it lifts me up. Right.
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  Speaker 2: All of these things are easy to do. Easy things
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  Speaker 2: get done. Look for the easy opportunities to connect. First
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  Speaker 2: third is opportunity. Often our assessment, our sense of where
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  Speaker 2: our opportunities arise are overly narrow, right, that we fail
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  Speaker 2: to appreciate how lots of activities could become a little
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  Speaker 2: more social if we added a social element to it.
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  Speaker 2: So you walk down to get a coffee at work, right, well,
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  Speaker 2: you could bring somebody with you. You're watching a sporting event,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: right you could invite somebody to come over and watch
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: it alongside you. You're driving home at the end of
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  Speaker 2: the day, maybe from work. That's an opportunity to pick
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  Speaker 2: up the phone and maybe call a parent, or a kid,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: or an old friend. Opportunity often means adding something social
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  Speaker 2: to something. Maybe you're doing that could be more social
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: if you just tried and then routinely. None of this
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: is going to matter unless you treat mental health in
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: the same way we treat exercise, which is a routine
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: that you have to do over and over again. Happiness,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: it turns out, is kind of like a leaky tire.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Right you do something you feel good, and then it
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: dissipates nothing lass nothing lass right. We adapt to almost everything,
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  Speaker 2: and that means that if we're going to uplift our
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: lives a little bit more often, if we're going to
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  Speaker 2: uplift our lives sustainably, it means we have to look
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  Speaker 2: for moments routinely to lift ourselves up.
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  Speaker 1: It's so simple, it's so simple, and the ripple effect
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  Speaker 1: is far reaching. I'm grateful for your book. I'm grateful
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: the impact that it had on my life. And as
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I said to you, this is one of those books
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that actually does have an impact in the way we live.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: So Professor Nichols Eptley, it's been a wonderful and generous conversation.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: You've been very kind with your time. Thanks for chatting.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin, this has been great.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Professor Epley works at the University of Chicago and his
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: book is a little more social. You've got to get it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes. You can
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: get it everywhere that you buy books, and it will
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: make a difference in all of your relationships and even
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: the relationships that you don't have just yet. Happy Families
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Mediaumhammonds provides
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: our additional support, and if you'd like more info about
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: anything we've talked about, check the show notes, obviousit Happy
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: families dot Com. Today you