Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 172 - The Power of Black & White: Your Photo Archive Through the Monochrome Lens

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172 - The Power of Black & White: Your Photo Archive Through the Monochrome Lens · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

0:04
Casey Fatchett: So we're almost there.
0:05
Gulden Hauer: Snag,
0:06
Casey Fatchett: I know it's hard to tell with the color of the
0:08
light here. Oh, hello. Welcome to the nerdy photographer
0:11
podcast. I'm your host. Casey Fatchett, if it's your first
0:15
time listening to the show, don't forget to subscribe. It's
0:18
a moral imperative, then you can join us for lots of interesting
0:22
conversations and adventures. Yes, I did say adventures
0:26
because, in addition to giving you interviews with amazing
0:28
photographers, I also provide lots of informative and
0:32
entertaining photography related information. But furthermore, I
0:35
go on adventures with the crew of the starship Fibonacci right
0:38
now golden hour and I are traversing Umer Gertie prime
0:42
which orbits a dwarf star whose light output is almost entirely
0:46
in the red and infrared wavelengths, making everything
0:49
appear black and white to our eyes.
0:51
Gulden Hauer: Snuck
0:52
Casey Fatchett: Yes, yes, just like that planet in dune two in
0:55
the episode of the show I speak with photographer Ian plan about
0:59
going through his archive of 1000s of photos to create a
1:01
series of monochromatic images. How that process affected him,
1:05
how he saw his images differently, and much more on
1:08
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3:45
Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
3:47
host, Casey Fatchett, and I am here today with photographer Ian
3:52
plant. Ian, welcome to the show.
3:55
Ian Plant: Oh, thank you so much, Casey. I'm so happy to be
3:57
here.
3:58
Casey Fatchett: We had some scheduling issues, but we've
4:00
managed to work it all out, and we're gonna start off with the
4:02
dice breaker. Off with the dice breaker and roll it out. It's 13
4:07
worst advice you've had, you've received regarding photography
4:14
or running a business.
4:18
Ian Plant: That's a great question. I think the worst
4:20
advice I've had regarding photography and running a
4:23
business is that it's a good idea to quit your day job and
4:27
become a full time professional photographer.
4:30
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. I mean, I think I did that way too early
4:32
myself. I was just like, I got a taste of, like, a couple of good
4:37
paying gigs, and I was like, this will just keep going. And
4:41
that didn't happen. So I just like, jumped out of the my my
4:44
day job, and was like, Yeah, this will be fine, yeah.
4:48
Ian Plant: I mean, I kind of, you know, I I knew what I was
4:52
getting into, more or less, like, I knew it wasn't going to
4:54
be easy. But I think it's the the unknown, unknowns, that
4:59
really. Trip you up. And so it was very challenging 20 years
5:04
ago when I, when I made the switch to become a full time
5:07
photographer. And, you know, I don't regret it at all, and I
5:10
certainly feel like I've, I've done okay, you know, I managed
5:13
to successfully manage the transition. In some ways, it was
5:17
a lot more challenging than I ever expected to be. And looking
5:21
back, I don't, as I said, I don't regret anything, but I'm
5:24
not sure that now I would make the same decision. Yeah,
5:29
Casey Fatchett: I mean, I think that for me, like, I think I
5:33
just jumped into it too early without knowing what I needed to
5:35
do to have continuous, like, success, I mean, or like, my
5:42
income was the sort of thing, like, I had booked a couple of
5:46
jobs that I thought would be recurring, which were pretty big
5:49
jobs. And I was like, This is great. I can quit my day job.
5:52
And I was like, Yeah, wait a second, these did not end up to
5:57
be recurring jobs. And those things sort of fell through, and
6:01
then I was left in a bit of a lurch, going, Why did I do that?
6:06
And I could have, I could have known better how to run a
6:10
business at the beginning. I think that that was, that was
6:13
the big lesson that I learned. I sort of jumped into it with a
6:17
creative, hey, I got checks coming in. I'm getting paid for
6:21
my work, sort of attitude, and didn't see the potential
6:27
pitfalls.
6:29
Ian Plant: I mean, running a business is a very challenging
6:32
thing. I think most people don't understand how difficult it is
6:35
to run your own business. And you know, I thought to myself,
6:40
well, I'm, I'm a smart guy. I can figure it out and it it
6:46
really comes down to having a certain type of personality. You
6:49
need to have a personality that's prone to being detail
6:52
oriented and meticulous when you're running a business, and
6:55
you also need to be outgoing and gregarious. Because, as it turns
6:59
out, you know, doing things like being disciplined with your
7:02
budget and having the ability to make small talk with people, so
7:07
that you network, so that you get opportunities available to
7:10
you. These are probably the things that are most important
7:12
for running your own business successfully. And if you just
7:16
don't have a personality that's conducive to that, you can find
7:18
those aspects very challenging. I mean, I've been doing this for
7:20
20 years, and I still don't really have the ability to have
7:26
a disciplined budget year by year.
7:27
Casey Fatchett: So budgeting is not the problem. My problem is,
7:31
and some people find it difficult. You have the podcast
7:35
and you seem like so talkative and whatever like, my problem is
7:38
the other part that you were mentioning, going out and being
7:40
gregarious and like talking to strangers, and that part of it,
7:45
which I find difficult unless I have some sort of commonality
7:49
with people like I find it very easy here on the show to like
7:52
talk to other photographers, because we already have a
7:55
touchstone that we can talk with, but like to go into a room
7:58
with people I don't know and not really have some sort of
8:03
connection or known like, like sort of relationship. I have
8:09
that issue, and I think that hindered me starting out too. I
8:13
just sort of thought that when to go back to I booked these
8:18
couple of jobs and thought, Oh, these are gonna have these
8:22
regularly, but I wasn't able to. I now, I think I do much better.
8:29
I wasn't able to maintain those relationships to make them
8:32
recurring, because I wasn't the out in front like gregarious
8:38
personality. Let's be friends and go have lunch. And what else
8:42
can I do for you and maintain this relationship? I thought
8:47
running the business part was okay. Well, you're just going to
8:49
call me every six months to do this job, and that's all I have
8:53
to do. And it's not that's not how it works. It's not how you
9:00
get new business either.
9:02
Ian Plant: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, I think a
9:04
lot of people who get into creative arts like photography
9:08
probably fall into that category of extroverted introverts. You
9:14
know, we're very private people. We don't necessarily like big
9:18
crowds or small talk or meeting new people. But we can fake it.
9:23
We can be gregarious when the situation demands. But I think a
9:27
lot of people who are naturally extroverted don't understand how
9:32
like emotionally taxing that is for people like us.
9:36
Casey Fatchett: The social battery thing is absolutely
9:38
real. And you know, I will tell my wife if we go to some event
9:43
together whenever, and she's with me, and I look at her like
9:46
I have, I am spent. I am I have nothing left to give people.
9:53
Energy wise, yeah, I've had that conversation though many times
9:58
on the show where we. Talking about like actual skill and
10:02
talent at photography is not necessarily the clearest marker
10:06
of success in the industry, as much as being able to pitch
10:11
yourself to people and find means of connecting with people
10:19
who can get you more jobs or get you paid in some way. Ian, for
10:27
listeners who are not familiar with you, they may have read
10:31
your bio that I've put out there, but like, can you give
10:36
them a little background on your photography journey? They've
10:41
mentioned that you've been doing this for full time for 20 years,
10:44
but a little bit more about what you do in the photography realm.
10:50
Ian Plant: Yeah. So I have been a full time professional nature
10:54
and landscape photographer for 20 years, and the nature of the
10:59
business has changed a lot during that time, so I kind of
11:02
jumped into the business just when digital photography became
11:08
the dominant force in photography. So that this was
11:11
the transition from film photography to digital
11:14
photography. This was also the same period where we saw the
11:18
rise of easy access to the internet. And so the entire
11:23
photography industry changed. Before I turned pro
11:27
photographers made a living from doing photography. You had
11:31
people doing assignment work, you know, obviously there was,
11:34
you know, in nature and landscape photography, it was,
11:36
it was mostly freelance work, where people would sell their
11:40
photos to magazines and calendars, etc and and then they
11:45
would also have large stock photography portfolios that were
11:49
the main source of their income. And so the internet kind of
11:52
destroyed all of that because it made it easier for people to get
11:57
access to photos rather inexpensively. So you know, a
12:00
lot of photographers that relied on their stock photography
12:03
portfolios for income found, in those few years when I was first
12:07
turning pro that the income they derived from that virtually
12:11
disappeared. And a lot of magazines, of course, went out
12:14
of business. And so the publishing world was no longer
12:17
the force that it used to be. And so in the very beginning of
12:22
my career, I actually made my living primarily from self
12:28
publishing coffee table photography books, basically
12:32
featuring my nature and landscape photography and and
12:36
also the work of other photographers. And I did that
12:39
for a few years, but that that business began to disappear,
12:44
along with the, you know, the rest of the publishing and the
12:46
book industry just isn't what it what you know today isn't what
12:49
it used to be. And during that time, I transitioned to
12:55
providing, deriving most of my income from photo education
12:59
services, so leading photo workshops and tours, doing
13:02
instructional ebooks and now videos and so that's how I make
13:07
most of my living. Today, I still have some actual sales of
13:11
my photographs. It's always great to actually sell your
13:13
photograph to somebody or to take on an assignment. I
13:16
actually feel like a photographer when that happens,
13:19
but I spend most of my time and energy educating other people
13:23
who are interested in learning more about photography and
13:25
taking them to interesting photo destinations around the world.
13:30
Casey Fatchett: Awesome. And I think that you recently started
13:34
talking about having come on the show is that over all those
13:39
years of taking pictures, you've established quite an archive of
13:43
images that you've taken, and you are going back through those
13:52
and choosing to, I mean monochrome or Black and White,
13:58
and create a new project of images, where you go back and
14:06
look a little look at things that you hadn't looked at
14:08
before.
14:10
Ian Plant: Yeah, well, generally, I'm a big advocate of
14:14
going back into your your digital images, your raw
14:18
archives, and I do this periodically, where I go back
14:22
and dig through them all, I've got, like, I don't know, 24
14:24
terabytes worth of raw photos right now from over 20 years.
14:28
And those, those terabyte numbers are growing
14:31
exponentially. Because, you know, back in the day, my first
14:34
digital camera was a 16 megapixel camera, and now
14:36
they're, you know, 50 or 60 megapixels. So the image files
14:40
are getting much bigger. And so I like to go back through my raw
14:45
archives to find the images I might have overlooked before.
14:49
You know, some of it might be that you had something good, but
14:52
you weren't good enough as a photographer to recognize that
14:55
it was good. And so a lot of times I'll go back and find
14:57
those diamonds in the rough that way. You know, some of it is
14:59
the. We've got some modern processing tools that make it
15:02
easier to extract something meaningful from images that
15:06
might have been unusable before, you know. So, for example, noise
15:08
reduction has gotten a lot better. And so there's some
15:11
images that I couldn't process before because they were too
15:13
noisy that now I can process. So, I mean, I generally do this.
15:17
I call it dumpster diving. I dive into the digital dumpster
15:21
and see what I can find. But more recently, I did engage in a
15:25
concerted effort to go through my digital archives to find
15:29
images that would look good as black and white photos. And so
15:34
during my entire career, I didn't do any black and white
15:36
photography. It was all color all the time, and it wasn't
15:41
because I didn't like black and white. Actually love black and
15:43
white photography. I kind of made a decision. I thought that
15:46
commercially would make more sense just to engage with people
15:51
with my color photos. And so I just never really developed a
15:54
black and white portfolio. And so I recently decided that this
15:57
might be a good idea to go through all those files, and
16:00
pick the ones that that weren't necessarily good in color, but
16:05
that could have new life in black and white. And so this was
16:08
just a creative project that is in line with what I do all the
16:13
time, going through these digital archives. But, you know,
16:16
I definitely had a mission, a goal in mind. And I think, you
16:19
know, it's, it's a project that's, it was a really helpful
16:22
project. I think it's a good one. Like a lot of photographers
16:25
don't shoot black and white, and I think it's a good exercise,
16:29
because reducing the world to monochrome, or just, you know,
16:34
to black and white, I guess, is the best way to put it, because
16:36
you can have a color monochrome image, it really forces you to
16:40
see more abstractly and to see the shapes and how light might
16:47
define objects in a photograph. And so I think it's a really
16:51
good artistic exercise for people. So I definitely
16:54
encourage anyone who hasn't ever done black and white photography
16:58
to go back through your image files and just experiment, see
17:01
what happens when you convert them to black and white. And I
17:03
think people will learn a lot from it.
17:05
Casey Fatchett: I think it's interesting. One of the things
17:07
that you know, that people might not know about black and white
17:12
photography is how certain colors look different in black
17:17
and white, and you can change how you process things into
17:23
black and white and make certain colors darker, brighter,
17:28
whatever, and it can change the tone of the image you're saying.
17:33
Going back and looking at things, and I, I'm personally a
17:37
proponent of of saving your raw files. Some people I don't
17:42
understand, like, get rid of them after here's whatever. But
17:45
I also have that huge digital archive. I've got, like, 210
17:48
terabyte hard drives that I picked up that I'm like, same
17:51
thing. The file sizes are getting bigger and bigger and
17:54
bigger. I'm going through storage at a more rapid rate.
17:59
But luckily, I'm not. You. You don't use SSDs for long term
18:03
storage so that that price is not destroying me for storage at
18:09
this point. Yeah, going back and looking at things from a
18:14
different point of view, and seeing how something that you
18:21
saw in color, and how you can use black and white to change
18:27
the focus of the image and change the interpretation or
18:32
meaning of however you want to put it, like how people feel
18:36
looking at it. By taking away the color can have a huge impact
18:40
and make it a completely different image. I also have a
18:42
big proponent of keeping stuff going back, look at it later. I
18:45
do it. I'm predominantly a wedding photographer, and I keep
18:49
all those photos known. But there's some that I've just like
18:51
looked at when I was back years and years ago, looked at a photo
18:56
in my like. I give it a special like rating, so that I might
19:01
come back in a few years and look at that and think, Hmm,
19:05
what would I do differently about that now if I was re
19:08
editing that image? Because, yeah, your your own skill, the
19:13
technology advances and your own skills and change and improve,
19:19
hopefully, but also your artistic sense changes and
19:24
matures.
19:26
Ian Plant: Yeah, absolutely. And I've always been a big
19:28
proponent. When I'm teaching workshops, I encourage people to
19:33
try different things with their photography, try different
19:36
genres, get outside their comfort zone, because every time
19:40
you try something new, it forces you to see the world in a
19:43
different way. And I think that's the key to advancing
19:47
one's craft as a photographer. And so to me, the black and
19:51
white project was was just part of that ongoing effort that I
19:54
forced myself to do. And and, yeah, I mean, you're absolutely
19:59
right. The The irony is that in the film day, most photographers
20:05
started off by learning black and white. And you know, they
20:08
didn't just jump into color. Black and White was was much
20:11
more common. And you know, every single high school class that
20:15
taught photography taught it using black and white film.
20:18
People learned how to go into the dark room, the physical dark
20:21
room, the one with the chemicals that was actually dark, unlike
20:25
our digital dark rooms and and that's how people learn
20:30
photography. And, you know, I think it's, it's a good
20:33
exercise, because, as I said, it really forces you to see
20:35
artistic abstraction that might not be as obvious when you're
20:40
shooting in color and learning how to see everything around you
20:43
in these abstract artistic terms, learning how to see the
20:46
shapes created by objects or the shapes that are created by the
20:50
juxtaposition of shadow and light, these are the keys to
20:53
unlocking more powerful visual designs with your photographs.
20:57
And so I don't think I'm going to do a lot of black and white
21:02
photography. I'm still going to be predominantly a color
21:05
photographer, but practicing black and white is making me a
21:09
better color photographer.
21:11
Casey Fatchett: Well, one of the things I heard early on, I think
21:16
this may have been I'm going to say it. If somebody knows that
21:21
I'm wrong, they can leave a comment, whatever I think it may
21:25
have been. Orson Welles, who said something about it, you can
21:27
hide a lot of things in color. You can't hide in black and
21:31
white, because color can distract you from seeing, from
21:37
seeing certain things. But in black and white, you like the
21:40
composition becomes much more important. You can get you can
21:45
get away with things in color. Color can fool you, right?
21:48
Whereas black and white is very you're not distracted by all the
21:54
pretty colors.
21:56
Ian Plant: Yeah, I think, I think that's actually a really
21:58
good point, because I mean black and white boils things down to a
22:02
stark essence, yeah. And as you said, composition becomes much
22:06
more important. You know, like with the kind of photography I
22:09
do, landscape photography, you can have a really pretty sunset
22:13
and take a picture of it, and the colors might be enough for
22:16
people to say, Wow, what an amazing photo. But I mean to me,
22:20
like the color is, is not enough. Like it's, it's nice to
22:24
have, but you really have to make a dynamic composition of
22:28
visual design that draws the viewer in. And if you're just
22:31
obsessed with the color and light, you're going to
22:34
shortchange everything else. And so I, you know, I like that,
22:38
black and white removes that and forces you to think more
22:42
critically about other parts of the image making process that
22:45
might be more important. And it's something that I try to do
22:49
whenever I'm out there making photos, is to, like, kind of
22:52
disassociate myself from the majesty of the subject. You
22:56
know, like with with nature and and landscape photography, often
22:59
people are going to find the most amazing scenery or the most
23:04
charismatic megafauna that they can find. And I like
23:09
photographing this stuff that maybe other people aren't
23:12
noticing, you know, I like working with more subtle
23:14
landscapes a lot, or even, you know, sometimes I really enjoy
23:19
photographing the wildlife no one else cares about. You know,
23:21
like, when I'm leading, leading photo tours in Africa, for
23:25
example, I might see a Warthog and say, Oh, this is gonna be a
23:28
great picture. Let's take a picture of that Warthog. And
23:30
everyone's like, no, no, no, let's go find a leopard, and
23:32
Casey Fatchett: Let's go find a big cat. Let's go find elephant.
23:36
Yeah, the things that everybody takes pictures of
23:38
Ian Plant: yep. And so I've always, I've always believed
23:41
that you can find good photographs anywhere, anytime,
23:46
with any subject, if, if you think about those artistic
23:51
aspects, those abstract, artistic abstracts, and how they
23:54
might come together to make a pleasing photograph. And I, I
23:56
often talk about the work of famous street photographer Henri
23:59
Cartier Bresson, who didn't walk around the streets of Paris
24:04
looking for the most gorgeous supermodels to photograph. He
24:07
just went around and photographed everyday, ordinary
24:10
people going about their daily lives, and he was looking for
24:13
those convergences of shape and motion and shadow and light to
24:18
make these beautiful, artistic photographs that were everything
24:22
about what he was seeing as an artist and almost nothing to do
24:25
with the beauty of the subjects he was photographing.
24:29
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's it's seeing the world in a different
24:35
way and and really, I think this is becoming a lost art, maybe
24:44
because of cell phone cameras, whatever, but how people see one
24:49
of the things I always try to teach people, if I'm teaching a
24:52
workshop or, like, change your perspective. Like, don't take it
24:57
from eye level. Don't take it like, if. You're sitting there
25:00
looking at everybody looks at things from eye level. Try it
25:05
from down low up high. Try a different angle, and see what
25:10
that your brain sees. Because that can change everything
25:14
completely. And you can, you can make an interesting photo, like
25:18
something that will really grab the attention of the viewer,
25:21
because they're looking at it from a perspective they've never
25:24
looked at things before. And I'm curious because you mentioned
25:31
that you kind of went for the subtler landscapes and the and
25:36
the wildlife that people might not pay attention to. I'm
25:39
curious when you're going back through your archive of like,
25:43
10s of 1000s of images, how do you decide which ones deserve a
25:49
second look, and maybe you're going to be part of this
25:52
project?
25:54
Ian Plant: Yeah, that that is that's a big question. It might
25:58
require a big answer.
26:02
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, work?
26:03
Ian Plant: Yeah. Well, good, good. I mean, just to sort of
26:07
backtrack a moment, I think that art is showing people something
26:12
that they they haven't seen before, or showing people
26:14
something they don't see, you show them something that they
26:17
can see on their own. I don't think it's going to really grab
26:19
their attention. So, you know, showing them what you see as an
26:23
artist, and learning how to see the things that other people
26:25
don't see. I think that that's really the key to making
26:28
interesting photographs. And so on some level, that's what I'm
26:31
looking for. I'm looking for something that's just revealing
26:36
some aspect of my subject. And I know I'm not being very clear
26:40
about it. This is sort of an ephemeral thing. Yeah, that's, I
26:44
just
26:45
Casey Fatchett: wanted to kind of get your thought process
26:46
behind it, because it's different. I'm sure it's
26:48
different for everybody, but I always love to hear what
26:51
people's how people's thought processes work,
26:55
Ian Plant: yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, I primarily
26:58
looking for for an interesting composition, something that's
27:02
going to engage the viewer visually. I'm also looking for
27:05
photos that tell a story that might engage the viewer
27:08
emotionally and get their their curiosity aroused. You know,
27:12
when they you don't, I don't think you have to tell viewers a
27:16
specific story. I think it's it's enough to to like have some
27:19
mystery in your photo that that causes them to engage in that
27:23
storytelling process on their own. You don't have to force the
27:27
viewer to see the story that you want them to. You just want them
27:30
thinking about a story. So you want to trigger their curiosity
27:34
with with the visual elements in your photo. And so, you know, a
27:38
lot of times I'm looking for photos that will have this sense
27:42
of mystery, you know. So so instead of revealing everything,
27:45
you know, maybe a photo taken in really dramatic contrasty light,
27:49
so that, you know, a lot of the scene is in silhouette, and so
27:53
the viewer can't really see everything that's going on. And
27:56
that might create that sense of mystery trigger that
27:59
storytelling process, for example. And so I'm, I'm looking
28:03
for photographs that are, I don't know, it's hard to
28:06
describe, but I'm looking for the stuff that's in between, you
28:10
know, the stuff that falls through the cracks, I guess,
28:13
looking for a crack in the light so that you get, like, really
28:17
dramatic lighting effects, for example. I'm looking for those
28:20
rare convergences where the shapes and the composition all
28:24
come together and form something that's artistically pleasing. So
28:28
I'm looking for something that's photogenic, I guess, for lack of
28:32
a better way of putting it,
28:34
Casey Fatchett: interesting photography, finding things that
28:36
are photogenic. The my question, next question is, because you
28:41
mentioned, like, creating an emotional connection for the
28:44
viewer, and I think that's one of the biggest things we talk
28:50
about, engaging whatever genre of photography you're in,
28:54
whatever you're taking pictures of, your hope is, at least, I
28:58
would think that it would be that You're somehow engaging
29:00
people who look at that photo and and that they want to, it
29:07
makes them feel a way, whether that that is, you know,
29:14
intrigued or scared or happy or just maybe like nostalgic or
29:19
whatever the reason is, it makes them connect emotionally to to
29:25
the image. I'm curious, has your emotional connection to your own
29:31
photos changed over time and distance? Do you have you found
29:36
and going back through these images and going through all of
29:40
your photos that you you personally have a different
29:43
emotional connection to your photos. I know that going back
29:46
and looking at my pictures years later, there are some pictures
29:50
that I'm like, oh, like, I could just like, it somehow hits me
29:54
completely differently now that I have a different lived
29:58
experience than. I did when I took that photo, and now it hits
30:03
me in a different way.
30:06
Ian Plant: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question.
30:09
You know, part of what I love about photography is that it it
30:13
gets me out experiencing these amazing things. And so there's,
30:19
I think, sort of a natural connection between the photos
30:23
and the experience I had while I was making the photos. So if I'm
30:26
photographing a volcano, or if I'm underwater, photographing
30:31
killer whales or something like that, it's an amazing thing. And
30:36
so whenever I look at the photos, I think there's there is
30:38
that natural trigger there for me, it just makes me remember
30:41
that, that incredible experience. But on the other
30:45
hand, I feel like I'm a bit emotionally disassociated from a
30:49
lot of my photos, because I'm I try to be very self critical
30:55
about my work, and I'm constantly looking at it, you
30:59
know, like when you when you see a photo, whether it's your own
31:02
or someone else's, there's sort of an like an initial reaction
31:06
that can be very positive or negative, but that reaction can
31:10
change over time. The more you look at that photo, you might
31:14
find that the very positive feeling you had in the beginning
31:19
goes away completely. It might be that you didn't like it at
31:22
first, and you change your mind and say, you know, I think
31:24
there's something actually pretty interesting going on
31:27
here. And so I think that the photos that are going to stand
31:34
the test of time are the ones that will trigger a reaction
31:38
over the long haul. And that's why I'm constantly looking and
31:41
relooking at my photos and studying them, because I want
31:45
to, I want to get a sense for how, whether the photo is going
31:50
to have that long term appeal, or whether it's just going to
31:52
have that kind of short lived, you know, looks great as a
31:55
thumbnail on Instagram appeal. And I don't really want that.
32:00
I'm not I'm not really that interested in in having that,
32:03
that thumbnail appeal, that internet thumbnail appeal. I'm
32:06
really more interested in creating photos. They're going
32:08
to have that longer term appeal. And so I think the the one
32:12
downside of constantly and critically assessing and
32:16
reassessing my work is that that emotional tether to the moment
32:21
gets more attenuated over time. And so I don't know. I guess. I
32:27
guess maybe I'm, maybe I'm overthinking it when I'm looking
32:30
at my photos. Maybe I'm, I'm just, I'm thinking too logically
32:33
about whether I like something or not, or whether I think it's
32:36
going to stand the test of time. And maybe I should just sort of
32:39
let that go and just revel in the the emotional impact. And of
32:42
course, you know that that's one of the challenges for
32:46
photographers, is the emotional connection they have with their
32:48
own photos is not necessarily going to be something that that
32:52
the average viewer feels and so you know, it's often been said
32:56
when people are learning photography by their mentors
32:59
that like, yeah, just because you like it just because you
33:01
crawled through the mud for six hours to make this photo, and
33:03
just because you had this amazing experience that you'll
33:06
never forget doesn't mean that anyone's actually going to like
33:08
your photos. So we learned very on to kind of disassociate
33:11
ourselves from our own personal emotional feeling about the
33:15
photos when we're looking critically at our work. And so I
33:20
guess that applies with equal force to what I'm doing, like
33:24
constantly assessing the images and trying to figure out, does
33:27
this have long term appeal? Just because I think it has long term
33:30
appeal doesn't mean anyone else is going to feel that way. So
33:32
I'm probably just spinning my wheels a little bit when I do
33:36
Casey Fatchett: this. Well, I think that, I mean, like you
33:38
were mentioning that people learned that, I think that some
33:41
people don't learn that this like very the way it used to be
33:46
like versus how it is now, that the photos that you might love
33:52
the most or like feel the most personally attached to, are not
33:54
necessarily the ones that are going To get the biggest
33:57
reaction from other people and that you, my question was more
34:09
about, hey, do you? And I think you answered it was more of a
34:12
Yeah, your own personal connection to the photos, and
34:17
not necessarily what you choose, but just finding that they
34:20
change over time. And I think it's one of those things about
34:22
being things about being living with the photo, I think that's
34:25
that's one of those things with that, that I sort of test myself
34:30
on, because I learned that there were certain images that for me,
34:34
that my clients liked, that I also liked that, that we that we
34:39
share that we share that connection, and that helps me
34:41
sell to them. It helps me connect with them on a an
34:45
emotional level, when we have that shared feeling, and I
34:49
understand it, but I also understand that some things are
34:52
going to mean something different to me than they are to
34:56
a potential client or a buyer or whomever is. Hiring me that you
35:02
spend time living with an image over years or however long, and
35:07
you start to think about it differently. Whereas you may
35:12
have seen it as like, this is a very technically good photo. But
35:17
then over time, you may look at it and be like, it's just
35:21
technically good and it has no soul to it. And then you might
35:28
see something that has a little imperfection in it that you
35:31
originally thought, well, this means it's no longer, you know,
35:36
it's not a good, you know, the little blurry or this is, you
35:41
know, the it's a little too dark, or whatever, and then you
35:46
look at it years later, and you're going, like, oh, this
35:48
tells a different story than I originally thought that it did.
35:53
That's, that's sort of feeling, is what I was asking about,
35:58
yeah,
35:58
Ian Plant: yeah. And I, you know, I think I was kind of
36:01
getting at that. And what you just said, you know, you live
36:04
with a photo. I think that's, that's you expressed it a little
36:08
bit more articulately than I was at the time. That's what I'm
36:11
getting at, is that I, you know, my goal is, if you put a photo
36:15
on the wall in a year and you look at it every day, and a year
36:18
into that process, you still can't tear your eyes away. It's
36:21
still making a connection. You know, that's, that's what I want
36:25
for my photos, is to have that long term appeal, so that the
36:28
the feeling that someone has about it might shift over time,
36:32
but if it's shifting to be more and more positive over time,
36:35
that's, that's what we're all hoping for, right? And so, you
36:39
know, I definitely, I definitely, like the idea of, as
36:42
you put it, living with a photo for for a time to decide whether
36:45
you really like it or not. And also, another, I think, another
36:49
way of answering your question, another way of thinking about
36:52
it, is, is how much I value my personal opinion about a photo
36:56
versus the opinion of others. And you know, I firmly believe
36:59
that if you feel good about a photo you've made, that that
37:02
should be the most important thing. Whether other people feel
37:06
the same way or not, you can't control and a lot of times
37:09
they're not going to like something that you feel really
37:12
passionate about. A lot of the photos that people really like
37:15
of mine are some of the photos that I think are my worst, which
37:19
you know, like, I think every photographer expresses that at
37:22
some point. And so I feel, I feel like, if you feel
37:25
confident, if you feel passionate about something, you
37:28
should like it, whether other people like it or not. You know
37:32
what I said earlier about art is seeing something that other
37:35
people don't see. I mean, part of that it could lead you into
37:39
seeing something that's really artistically relevant, that
37:42
maybe most people can't see what you see, you know, it's like, I
37:45
like the idea of being a photographer's photographer, you
37:49
know, like, it may be a little less important to me if the
37:52
general Instagram audience loves my work, but if other
37:55
photographers look at my work and say, Yeah, you know, I see
37:58
what he's doing, I really, you know, respect what he's doing,
38:02
that that's a bit more important to me. But ultimately, you know,
38:06
your own feelings about your own work are the most important
38:09
thing. And I do. Obviously there's some photos that I
38:12
really, really love that I think, you know what, no one's
38:15
ever going to get this. And maybe I keep those photos close
38:18
to the vest, and there might be some other photos that are like,
38:22
Yeah, you know, I'm on the fence about this, but I think it's
38:25
going to be popular. I might put those up. You certainly. I've
38:29
got those sort of commercial considerations that that I take
38:32
into account when I'm, you know, choosing what to share with the
38:36
world. But yeah, you know, if I feel strongly about something, I
38:40
I confidently share it in even if I know I'm only going to get
38:43
like, you know, a few people who really like it that, and that's
38:47
fine, you know, it's, it's, I don't live, live or die by the
38:50
validation of others, I guess. And I think, I think that's
38:53
important for every artist, is to be true to themselves and to
38:57
understand that, you know you might not be connecting with
39:00
everyone, but I think people can find their audience, find the
39:04
people who do like their work. And that's the most important thing.
39:08
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that's a supremely important
39:10
lesson for people to learn. And I always like the the the
39:16
analogy that people will say, like, oh, only 10 people, like
39:24
this photo, or whatever that I that I posted, and somebody say,
39:27
like, if there were 10 people who walked into your into the
39:31
room with you right now are like, hey, I really like that.
39:34
How would you feel? Yeah, like these people that are connected
39:38
with those 10 people, instead of like, going, Oh, not enough
39:42
people validated this online and and the sort of that that also
39:50
is you mentioned the self validation and not feeling
39:55
beholden to the opinions of others. Again. A lesson that I
40:00
could have learned earlier in my career, that, you know my work,
40:06
especially if it's something that I'm doing pretty much for
40:09
myself, is especially if it's something that is not a you
40:17
hired me to do this job, that if I have something that I'm
40:19
choosing to go out and photograph and maybe it turns
40:22
into something, maybe I sell it to somebody, maybe whatever that
40:25
it's not that's not about, like, pleasing somebody else, that's
40:29
about making me happy. And if somebody else, some down the
40:33
line, says that's really great, cool, I don't care whether or
40:38
not you say it's great or not, but like, awesome that you share
40:41
that opinion with me, but I just really like it makes me feel
40:43
good. I take tons of pictures of flowers. I'm doing anything with
40:47
them. They just make me feel happy and feel good. And I love
40:51
the photos, and that's all that's all that matters to me.
40:55
Do you feel like I'm curious when we were talking about,
40:58
like, the emotional connection to things that you were talking
41:01
about, it feels attenuated over time. Do you feel like you're
41:05
collaborating with your past self, or do you feel like you're
41:09
going through the year? The emotional distance that you feel
41:13
like you are curating someone else's work in that mindset?
41:21
Ian Plant: That is a fascinating way of looking at things. Yeah,
41:28
I have not even sure how to answer that question. To be
41:30
honest with you, it's yeah, you know. Okay, so I'm gonna answer
41:38
the question, maybe in a roundabout way. I remember
41:43
virtually every photo I've ever taken, and it's on occasion when
41:50
I'm going through my raw archives, I might stumble upon a
41:52
photo that I just absolutely don't remember photographing.
41:57
But we're talking about, like, a handful of images, you know, one
42:00
out of 10,000 and so I guess that means I'm probably still
42:07
bargaining with my past self. I still, I still feel pretty
42:13
connected to everything that I've done. I just, I think maybe
42:17
the connection fades a little bit, but, you know, I still feel
42:21
like that. That's it's still there, like I still, I still
42:23
remember every moment, you know, and it's rare for me to look at
42:26
a photo and say, what is that? Where did that come from? Here?
42:32
I was curious, so you wanted to clarify a little bit. So have
42:37
you noticed
42:40
Casey Fatchett: something that I noticed when I go back and look
42:42
through my old work are sort of, I hate to call them trends or
42:50
but patterns of things of like my compositions or the way that
42:56
I was shooting at The time. Have you noticed patterns or themes
43:02
emerging across your archives that you didn't consciously
43:05
notice when you were creating the work.
43:08
Ian Plant: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And a lot of them
43:11
are bad habits, where once I start going through my archives,
43:16
I'm like, Oh yeah, I do this too much. This is a compositional
43:20
Crux that I rely on too often, or, you know, I need to change
43:25
this up a little bit to make it more dynamic, that sort of
43:28
thing. Some of them are, are good habits that I maybe didn't
43:34
recognize. And I think those good habits are the things that
43:37
contribute to one's personal style. And so definitely, over
43:41
time, I definitely recognize that there are certain subjects,
43:46
certain moments, certain types of convergence of composition
43:51
and light that attract my eye and that really helped define my
43:56
personal style. And it's good to recognize that like, I think
44:01
it's good to lean into those things so that you could really
44:04
map out the contours of your your individual style, and so
44:07
that your portfolio, you know, I like, I like having a portfolio
44:10
of images that that if someone who sees one of the photos in my
44:14
portfolio, they may not know it's mine. My name might not be
44:17
on it, but they're like, You know what? I bet that's an
44:19
implant photo. You know, when people tell me that that that
44:23
that makes me feel great, that's exactly what I'm trying to
44:26
accomplish. And so recognizing those, those trends in your
44:30
work, you know, leaning into them is a good strategy, but
44:34
also recognizing when you do them too much, or when you lean
44:38
in to them too much, and trying to go the opposite way on
44:40
occasion, that can also be very good for your artistic
44:43
development. So, yeah, I think, I think what you just said is is
44:47
really important that that's one of the reasons to go back
44:51
through your work and reassess it is to try to figure out what
44:56
it is you've been doing, whether it's good or bad.
44:59
Casey Fatchett: Oh, man, I. I looked back at early, my early
45:03
wedding work, and was like, wow, I really loved Dutch angles
45:06
there for a couple of years. Not so that's a great but, like, I
45:12
was really, and I remember what my thought process when I was
45:15
doing why I was doing it, but you looking at it, you know, 20
45:19
years later, going, yeah, maybe that was a that was a bad
45:24
choice. Maybe less less often. There were certainly times where
45:27
it worked, but not as often as I was I was doing it. So I'm
45:32
curious, like, how has this process of going through your
45:38
archive? Has it changed how you're shooting currently? Has
45:48
how has it influenced your process, knowing that a you
45:53
know, like that you've again seen those patterns, or whatever
45:57
you you've discovered, but also that you may be going back to
46:01
revisit these photos at some point in the future.
46:05
Ian Plant: Yeah, I you know, I think that what we were just
46:09
talking about is is absolutely something that leads to having
46:16
your process change. Your artistic process is constantly
46:20
evolving, and anytime you try something different or learn
46:23
something new, or recognize something new about the patterns
46:29
in your work, that is going to lead to artistic advancement.
46:33
And so absolutely, this process has had an impact on my
46:38
photography, probably more probably a subtle impact, you
46:43
know, like, I don't think I've had any eureka moments where I
46:46
realized, Oh, my goodness, I have to completely change
46:49
everything. Change, yeah, but certainly, there's, there's been
46:53
a, there's been a conscious and unconsciousness evolution of my
46:56
work through this process. And I think that that's continuous.
46:58
You know, whenever you try something different or or learn
47:01
something new, it gets integrated into your overall
47:04
process going forward.
47:05
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's the, like you said, it's, it's, I
47:09
think it's an important aspect of growing as an artist to be
47:13
somewhat self reflective and go through your catalog and say,
47:21
What have I done? What have I where, where? What do I think of
47:24
this now? What do I whereas it may have been something that
47:28
appealed to me then, whatever about a time ago, does it still
47:32
appeal to me? Do I want to take things in a different direction?
47:37
Do I want to just kind of, I'm not taking a 90 degree turn, but
47:41
maybe I just want to take a slight right, as I sometimes get
47:46
in my Google Maps directions, take a slight right and, you
47:51
know, like, maybe branch off of this path slightly and take it
47:56
in a little bit of a different direction. I think that that's
47:59
an important but then I look at people like Vivienne Mayer, who
48:03
didn't really look at their work at all, and you have this giant
48:10
archive of images that she'd never even bothered to develop,
48:16
and still amazing photos and still evolved somehow. But I
48:22
think that's, that's that is an outlier. I think that people
48:26
should be, you know, looking at their work and not being
48:31
critical of themselves, but just, you know, again, like we
48:33
said, living with these images and saying, Okay, what does this
48:37
mean to me now? And what does this mean about what I'm trying
48:41
to say?
48:43
Ian Plant: Yeah, I mean, I do think that that everyone should
48:46
be their own harshest critic, but it doesn't have to be mean
48:51
spirited, right? As you said, you don't have to to be
48:54
constantly berating yourself, but being honest with yourself
48:58
about your work, what works, what doesn't work, I think is
49:01
important. But, you know, everyone approaches it
49:03
differently. And, you know, I've got a certain way of thinking,
49:07
of seeing the world that's a lot different from some of my my
49:10
good friends and colleagues in the business, you know, for
49:13
example, you know, I sometimes think that I tend to be a little
49:17
too analytical with my work. It's a little too structured,
49:21
it's a little too organized and symmetrical, and that can work
49:26
really well, and it leads me to a lot of good images, but it
49:30
doesn't always lead me to great images. And you know, one of my
49:34
good friends and colleagues, another landscape photographer
49:37
named Joseph rosback, he is kind of the opposite. He approaches
49:42
things in a much more freewheeling, sort of fly by the
49:46
seat of his pants way. And, you know, his work is often a little
49:52
disorganized, and I, you know, like it's very different from
49:56
the way I approach things. But I think at the end of the day. His
50:00
approach and my approach both lead kind of to the same place
50:04
in terms of, like, how many images we're making that really
50:07
kind of stand above, you know, my organized approach might
50:10
might lead to more images that that are acceptable, and his
50:16
disorganized approach might lead to a lot more images that that
50:19
are just, you know, too chaotic, but at the end of the day, he's
50:22
producing as much great work as I am. And I often look at what
50:27
he's doing, and I'm very jealous. I'm like, I'm like, I
50:29
need to be a bit sloppier in my approach. I need to, like, learn
50:33
how to fly by the seat of my pants and be a little less
50:36
analytical with my approach, because I can see what he's
50:38
doing and it's producing these really great results. And, you
50:42
know, so his process works great for him. It's something that
50:47
would make me, personally, very uncomfortable. So, you know, for
50:49
most of us, I think, yeah, you know, like constantly
50:52
reassessing our work is a good idea for some people. Some
50:55
people probably never need that. They probably just, they just go
50:58
out there and they make photos and they just try different
51:00
things. And, you know, maybe they're better at at freely
51:04
experimenting. And, you know, maybe that's a, you know, maybe
51:06
they're, they're just very sloppy in the way they do
51:08
things, but that works for them, and that that's that's great.
51:12
And I think that ultimately, everyone's got to do what works
51:16
best for them. Whatever your process is, I think is the best
51:18
process to get you where you want to
51:20
Casey Fatchett: go. You find the the way that works for you.
51:26
Yeah, I mean, so I guess. What advice would you give to
51:31
photographers who are sitting on their archive of under explored
51:37
images and trying to find new life for those photos.
51:44
Ian Plant: Well, I definitely think that it's an ongoing
51:46
process. You know, go into your digital archives frequently. I
51:50
do it all the time. Whenever I've got spare time, I fire up
51:54
the my RAID array and start digging through, and sometimes
51:59
I've been through some of the archives, and, you know, maybe
52:03
multiple times, and I feel like, okay, I've, I've pulled
52:05
everything that's good out of there. But sometimes I'm
52:07
surprised, you know, I'll go back a year later and take a
52:11
look at that same archive, and I'll be like, you know, I missed
52:13
this before. This is actually quite good. And, you know, so
52:17
like, doing this on a regular basis is an iterative process
52:22
that will help your evolution. You get better by going through
52:25
the files, and as we talked about, seeing your patterns,
52:30
and, you know, maybe discovering that you stumbled upon something
52:32
really cool in the past that you didn't realize you had done, and
52:36
now you can recognize it, and maybe you can use that as tool
52:39
going forward. So that'll make you a better artist, and you'll
52:41
start making better photos. And then, as you're out there
52:44
practicing these new techniques and these new tools that you've
52:47
picked up, and you advance as an artist, when you go back into
52:50
the digital archives, your artistic skill has advanced, so
52:54
you might be recognizing more good stuff that you have there.
52:58
So I definitely, I definitely recommend that people do that.
53:01
But I just generally, I think that any trip into the digital
53:05
archives is going to become more productive. The more you get out
53:11
there and and make photos, more you practice, the more you try
53:14
different things and expand your creative vision. Learn how to
53:18
see the world in new and different ways. Because when you
53:20
do that, and then you go back and look at those, those older
53:23
photos, you're going to see something that your younger self
53:26
might have missed. And you know, I I'm kind of constantly amazed
53:30
as I'm going through my photos, looking at stuff from 20 years
53:33
ago, and I'm like, that was actually really good photo. Why
53:36
did I never process it? And the truth is, Ian, 20 years ago,
53:40
just didn't know what he was doing and didn't know that he
53:44
had something good. Ian now knows that it was good. Ian back
53:47
20 years ago, just stumbled upon it accidentally, and that's
53:50
okay. I think that a lot of artistic growth happens when you
53:55
make those happy accidents and photography, you do something
53:58
that you just were trying something, or you didn't even
54:00
realize what you were doing and and it leads to something. It
54:05
leads to an epiphany. It leads to artistic
54:07
Casey Fatchett: Hey, folks, big news from our friends over at
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my wedding photography website, my non wedding photography
54:28
website, my art photography website, and some other sites,
54:32
is now 50 gigs of storage. It used to be 20. I had gotten a
54:36
message recently actually, this scenario is up over 80% of my
54:41
storage capacity. So I was thinking, why don't we add a
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delete but now I don't have to delete anything, because it's
54:49
now 50 gigs. The Go geek package, which used to be 40
54:53
gigs of storage, is now 100 gigabytes of storage. So if you
54:57
have, like, a lot of video or, again, multiple websites that
55:02
you need to. Manage that can be a great option if you only need
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one website, the they have a startup package which has 10
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gigabytes of storage for just 390 $3 a month for the first
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year. The grow big, the one that I use that has 50 gigs of
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storage is $5 a month for the first year. And the Go geek, 100
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gigabytes of storage, $8 for the first year, all of those include
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56:56
Hey. And now for my favorite part of the show, what's that?
57:00
Say? Useless information. This is always death,
57:09
and it's time for our useless information for this episode.
57:16
Ian Plant: Well, I'm jam packed with useless information, so
57:19
Casey Fatchett: this is why we have this section, this section
57:23
on the on the show, it's because my my wife, said that I should
57:28
be on Jeopardy, or that I should remove some of the trivial
57:33
knowledge and use it for good cure cancer or something like
57:38
that. They've not figured it out. There the pathologist who
57:43
performed Albert Einstein's autopsy, Dr Thomas Harvey, kept
57:48
a pretty major souvenir. What do you think it was?
57:54
Ian Plant: You know, I think I've heard this before, but I've
57:57
forgotten. I want to say he kept his brain
57:59
Casey Fatchett: He did stored in mason jars. Not like, not like a
58:03
whole, not the whole brain. 30 years later, 30 years after
58:08
Einstein's death, segments of his brain were found in the
58:12
doctor's home, stored in two mason jars.
58:17
Ian Plant: Well, I mean, if you're gonna take anything from
58:20
Einstein's body. It's got to be the brain or the hair.
58:22
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. One of the two. One of the two. Ian thank
58:25
you so much for being on the show. Where can people find you?
58:29
Well,
58:29
Ian Plant: you can see my work on my personal website,
58:31
ianplant.com or you can visit my photo education platform, which
58:35
is called Photo masters, photomasters.com you can also
58:38
find me on social media, Instagram, Facebook, that sort
58:41
of thing,
58:41
Casey Fatchett: those places on the Andrew webs, yeah, thank you
58:45
very much for coming on. I really had a blast talking with
58:47
you, hoping you can do this again sometime.
58:49
Ian Plant: Absolutely Casey, great time. It was an honor and
58:52
a privilege. Thank you.
58:58
Casey Fatchett: And welcome back. I hope you enjoyed my talk
59:00
with Ian plan. Ian's links are in the Episode Notes. Be sure to
59:03
give them a follow. Also, if you want to take part in our live
59:06
streams on YouTube and Instagram, be sure to go and
59:08
follow along with us there and get access to free portfolio
59:12
reviews, Q, a chats, lots of fun community going on between
59:15
episodes. I hope to see you there.
59:18
Gulden Hauer: Snug, snug, snug.
59:22
Casey Fatchett: Yes, I can see you
59:24
Gulden Hauer: snug.
59:26
Casey Fatchett: No, I can't tell if the color of your robe is
59:28
clashing with your fur. I can't see any colors either. Until
59:31
next time, everyone stay safe and stay nerdy. You
59:44
Unknown: who's your heartbeat? Beating about you better. Get
59:50
better. Get better. Get better. Listen, you.