Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Lorela Lohan, WanderlusTea

Transcript

Interview with Lorela Lohan, WanderlusTea · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:06
Hello and welcome to Specialty Much Podcast.
0:08
My name is Ryan and Michael Hozong Jun is currently running
0:11
around our different supplier partners as we bring our matcha
0:14
mill to life. So unfortunately he was not able
0:16
to join. He he tried to, but he's pretty
0:19
much in the middle of nowhere at the moment at a over planned
0:22
meeting that went on way longer than we both expected.
0:25
But our packaging for the mill is almost ready, which is very
0:28
exciting. But we're pleased today to have
0:30
Lorelaa from Wonderlust Teas, who's based in Brussels,
0:34
Belgium. It has tons of experience with
0:36
the tea scene, not only within Brussels, but within Europe as a
0:41
whole. So so happy to have you here and
0:44
would love if you could tell us a little bit more about your
0:47
personal background, your tea journey and Wonderlust Teas.
0:51
Yes, thank you so much, Ryan for this nice introduction.
0:54
So I started I think with tea around 15 years ago to try to to
0:59
taste. And I started actually because I
1:02
was living in Italy and I didn't like coffee and it don't still
1:05
don't like espresso. So I wanted to find the product.
1:09
And when you start with tea, you generally how it happens that
1:13
you start with the best, like worst quality.
1:15
And then step by step, if you have a little bit of research
1:19
and willing to explore from the taste perspective, I just fell
1:23
into a rabbit hole of all tea. So now after seven years that I
1:28
decided actually to dedicate my career to tea and more in the
1:32
speciality tea world. So like by speciality tea, I
1:35
mean more sleeve teas, a little bit less on the bag, more
1:39
authentic profiles, not flavor. I actually have more than I
1:44
think 600 or 1000 teas here. So it's a sort of a big
1:48
collection of tea. And then I started also another
1:51
addiction that actually is ceramics.
1:53
So yeah, we are here so surrounded and submerged like
1:56
tea and ceramics. So very interesting to say that
1:59
I wanted to actually before starting Wanderous Tea that is
2:03
service consultancy for especially for tea businesses
2:07
in, in Europe, helping you understanding the market, seeing
2:11
what are the potential of development on the sales
2:14
perspective of your, of the teas.
2:16
I actually worked into, I wanted to build like a subscription
2:21
with three teas, the same kind of teas that are coming from
2:26
different regions. They actually let people explore
2:29
the the tasters. So like I was having this
2:32
impression that you can still feel the difference between
2:35
essentia that is produced in Kagoshima and essentia that is
2:38
produced, for instance, in Chizuaka or by a certain master.
2:41
So my intention at the beginning was to actually have this kind
2:44
of subscription. And it was actually during the
2:46
COVID period that I started my entrepreneurial journey.
2:49
I mean, I really reflected onto it properly and say, OK, I want
2:54
to build something and then I actually carry out the the more
2:58
the financial outcome and it was not at all viable.
3:02
So I said, OK, what I can do. And I was working more like
3:07
management of non for profit. So management for non for profit
3:11
is very similar to actually a business, the handling of
3:14
business. So I said to myself what I can
3:17
do, what kind of service is missing in the in the industry
3:22
that is not yet there and could help the brands to get to know
3:26
the products. So instead of like having
3:29
somebody creating another product that is has really a
3:32
lot, that has a lot of quality, what I can do to help actually
3:37
the system and the industry in a more larger sense.
3:40
So I came up with Wanderlust team five years ago, actually in
3:44
August, I created this. So it's really five years ago
3:47
and I created these services for businesses more on the medium or
3:53
micro enterprises that wanted to change the ecosystem and step by
3:59
step to actually improve the quality of the teas that were
4:03
offered that are offered to to the consumers.
4:06
And of course, like this is a big part helping them with the
4:10
market research, helping them if there is availability where are
4:14
actually the margin lying, how you can really create something
4:20
that has a lot of quality and still make a sustainable living
4:24
is not the easiest, the easiest market.
4:27
Actually, it's very difficult. We are a little bit more, let's
4:30
say incline now that the with the matcha boom is actually
4:34
starting more people to be passionate and discovering the T
4:38
world in a more deep way. Nevertheless, we are still a
4:42
little bit far away. So yeah, five years later I have
4:46
to say that I well, in the meantime, actually starting
4:50
business is always difficult to make it live and profitable.
4:54
And with the Wanderlust tea, I'm not still there.
4:57
However, two years ago I decided to dedicate myself full time to
5:01
Wanderstea to see if there is a viability in the market.
5:05
And it's possible to be sustainable in a more long term
5:09
by offering consultancy service and brand ambassadorship.
5:12
And of course, a lot of market research about how the market
5:17
will be going. And it's actually what is the
5:20
future of the market. So here you are in August.
5:23
And one of the things that I really learn among the, let's
5:28
say, my entrepreneur journey is definitely like the lessons that
5:32
I received from different kind of people with whom I'm, I'm
5:35
talked. And they actually, they, they
5:37
let me interview them about their journey.
5:40
And with the focus mostly on the more business side of, of, of
5:45
the, of the product. And not only to advertise the
5:49
say the the tea, but rather to make people understand who the
5:54
the the people that are actually creating the founders of this
5:57
brand, how are actually making it and how much passion they
6:01
have to actually still stay in a business that is not at all
6:05
easy. That makes sense.
6:07
And it it's definitely a difficult business.
6:09
And even just the insider knowledge like where are the
6:13
margins? What are the margins like even I
6:15
feel like I'm still trying to figure that out.
6:18
Like it's it's after talking to so many different matcha people
6:22
and some people, it's a really large actually, some people take
6:25
an enormous cut. And you also see some people
6:28
just adding on a little slice of margins, like, wow, like it's
6:32
very nice, but maybe you should charge more.
6:36
The problem that we have with with the with I say with with
6:40
the speciality industry and allow me to use the speciality
6:44
industry because there are many definition of it is that the
6:47
product that we are offering, they are very great.
6:51
Like they are very high quality. And the people that purchasing,
6:55
they really don't understand why you're paying a product a
7:00
certain amount of money. And as well, they don't
7:04
understand tea. Even people that are in T BS
7:07
like in the T BS, they don't understand tea mostly like in a
7:12
in a more complete way, I think. And I don't claim to actually
7:16
understand it still. I'm still learning a lot.
7:19
And everybody that is in the tea business will tell you, yeah,
7:22
with tea you cannot not stop learning because there are so
7:25
many variables. That is impossible.
7:27
Too many rabbit holes, yeah. So I do believe that there is a
7:31
problem with what is the value that people attribute to tea
7:37
here in like in in Europe, but also in US like in all the
7:40
market except maybe for the Asian, like for China and Taiwan
7:44
and Japan where they actually is appreciated in this part like in
7:48
integrating part of the culture. However, here in Europe is not
7:52
integrating part in the culture. And if it is integrating part in
7:56
the culture, like in the case of UK is not really really the
8:00
beautiful quality that we are expecting to drink is more about
8:05
a sort of, let's say historical and let's say commodity that has
8:10
almost nothing with the flavour profile that we are used to
8:14
drink like nerds tea people used to drink.
8:17
So yes, it's, it's really, it's a deconstruction of certain
8:22
assumptions to build up a new culture so that you you need to
8:26
do a double work basically. Yeah, that makes sense.
8:30
And maybe that's how much has been so successful because like
8:33
with loose leaf tea, there's so many variables.
8:36
You have to have the right tea where the right water, but much
8:39
it just like pretends to be coffee almost.
8:42
It's so substitutable and I think it's at least in my
8:46
observation, it's just exploded in Europe.
8:48
Like how, how have you seen like matcha positioning like I don't
8:53
want to say become so much more successful than specialty, the
8:56
average specialty tea and loose leaf tea, but like what has
9:00
happened in its crazy growth compared to specialty tea within
9:04
Europe? Like how do you attribute that
9:07
success? Yeah, different, different kind
9:09
of factors. I think that the first one is
9:13
after have tried, I think that more than 100 matches in
9:17
different kind of speciality tea bars across all Europe, because
9:21
I travel a lot. So like from Amsterdam to
9:24
Belgium to to Paris to France, the South of France to Portugal
9:30
is catching up step by step. Italy as well is catching up.
9:34
Quite interesting to see that is every in the more urban cities.
9:38
It's everywhere. Germany, I mean Germany, I think
9:41
that for a certain period of time, matcha was more served
9:44
than actually coffee in in Germany.
9:47
So you can realize actually what is the impact that they are
9:50
having Nordic countries. I think that what how much has
9:54
more than actually speciality team is first of all
9:57
customizable, second of all invites to a ritual.
10:02
So like you are preparing it. Everybody's preparing whiskey by
10:06
hand. So like it's almost mesmerizing.
10:09
It's almost like taking the time to that ritual that is bringing
10:14
you back to the moment which we are experiencing.
10:18
I think after the COVID crisis, everybody is like going more in
10:22
the Wellness era. So people maybe Start Stop to
10:25
drink people they started to drink to to eat more cleaner.
10:29
You have this kind of protein programs, protein bars,
10:33
collagen, all the kind of supplements, and I think that
10:37
much are really fitted this kind of dynamic in this kind of
10:40
history. So they place it in a more,
10:42
well, less position like taking care of yourself pack and then
10:47
placing in that kind of dimension is actually they they
10:51
unify with the possibility to actually enjoy it after a run,
10:56
after a Pilates class, after, I don't know, just to pick up your
11:01
energy, but not having the spikes that you have with
11:04
coffee. And most of the people that
11:06
drink coffee, like most of the people drink much.
11:09
They don't really drink like pure coffee.
11:11
Like you have one person or two that order.
11:14
I think if you put in a scale of 10, one person to the door,
11:19
they're like a black coffee coffee and the rest is just what
11:22
you like is actually the milk that you're adding to the
11:24
coffee, the creation. And the same with matcha doesn't
11:28
really doesn't really change a lot.
11:30
There are a few people that that want to experience matcha pure
11:34
and most of the cafes that you try, they will not even put it
11:37
on the menu. Some of them they will put it on
11:39
the menu like the possibility to try just pure matcha, but most
11:44
of them they will not just even bother to put it on the menu.
11:48
You have the possibility to customizing with everything.
11:51
Basically you put now is like more creative You are.
11:56
It is you have a banana caramel iced matcha latte.
11:59
You have matcha cloud like mixing with matcha with cream
12:04
cheese and with milk to create this kind of cloud.
12:07
And then you have like the coconut water and then like you
12:10
can you cannot even feel the matcha.
12:12
It's actually almost like like culinary ingredients.
12:15
And now like, let's not talk about the fact that matcha is
12:17
used in every kind of like patisserie like you have now we
12:21
have pancakes with matcha, like the matcha milk, milk ferry.
12:25
So like the the real like the sort of the dessert that you are
12:29
eating all the time, Matcha cookies, matcha crepe.
12:33
There is one example, for instance, in in Amsterdam, they
12:35
are doing that is called aroma. They are doing crepes like creme
12:39
brulee, like crepes with a matcha the experience.
12:42
So, yeah, so it's like you have the possibility to actually have
12:45
a crepe with matcha and then top it off with some caramel like a
12:50
cream, like creme brulee type of trap that is actually rotated
12:55
like a sort of a kebab and you just eat it with Yeah.
12:58
So like what is the beauty I think about matcha and why is
13:02
fitting so much? The actual culture is because
13:05
it's so versatile, so customizable and as well it
13:10
gives the illusion of a Wellness in the sense that if you drink
13:14
matcha, you have more focus. True.
13:16
But if you drink matcha latte, I think that your focus is not so
13:21
focused in the like it's not so alert.
13:24
I mean most of the marketing claims that you have and most of
13:27
the Wellness claims that you have on matcha is actually they
13:30
are actually consider if you take the ingredient pure and
13:35
you're just not mixing with milk or with other ingredients, but
13:38
just morning routine matcha with just 70° water and the right
13:43
proportions which are very important.
13:46
And of course the freshness, because that is one other
13:48
factor. Yeah, it makes sense.
13:51
That's interesting. The point around
13:53
customizability, I had never thought about that, but you can
13:57
like how would you customize like sencha that needs to be
14:01
brewed like there's probably all the realm of like normal
14:05
possibilities are feel so much lower than with matcha.
14:11
I don't think that is lower. It's just the way matcha is like
14:15
adding that kind of bright color and green color that gives the
14:18
impression of illusion of health.
14:21
I think that's the the big factor as well.
14:23
The color is very important of because it's visually attracting
14:26
and it's also one of the reason why is is happening like this
14:31
kind of boom on social media because the fact that the color
14:35
is such a visual attractive that is more than actually the taste.
14:40
Then you package up as antioxidants, green focus
14:45
alertness energy, which are which is actually happening when
14:49
you drink pure matcha and then you have an amazing possibility
14:53
to actually scale it and to make it viral.
14:56
The same is happening with Uber, which doesn't is not a tea, but
14:59
is entering the same kind of category of speciality coffee.
15:03
And let's not also forget that the fact that you are drinking
15:09
something that is so appealing in a green colour with the
15:13
possibility to actually create layers, you know, that's kind of
15:16
giving the possibility to another exploration.
15:19
And that's maybe when Sanchez or even other type of teas, oolongs
15:25
cannot maybe have the same effect because from the visual
15:31
perspective, they just don't give the same satisfaction to
15:34
die. And if you would create, for
15:37
instance, A sencha cloud exactly.
15:41
So like you need the right consistency of the sencha and
15:44
then you top it off with some cream with, I don't know, black
15:48
tea, for instance, with, with made with cream cheese that is
15:51
also visually appearing. However, the colours they don't
15:54
give that kind of satisfaction that you have.
15:57
And that's, that's important because I've been, so I've
16:00
experienced with different matches and some of them in
16:03
Korea especially, they're not shaded.
16:06
And the colour is such a putting off argument every time that you
16:10
propose it. It's just a colour doesn't mean
16:12
that the quality is not good. Like the taste is really
16:15
interesting. And this may be better than
16:18
every, most of the matches that you try in the latter.
16:21
However, it's quite interesting to, to see that the colour is
16:25
just such an important factor. And that's why I don't think and
16:31
I wanted to believe in the powder tea business like oolong
16:36
powder, different kind of let's say black tea powders.
16:40
However, visually prospective, it might not be there to give
16:45
that kind of appealing as much is giving just because of the
16:49
colour basically. Yeah, especially for mass
16:52
market. It's people eat with their eyes
16:54
first, I guess is the the famous phrase and I think it really
16:58
rings true. But that's interesting.
17:01
Have you noticed big like preference differences between
17:05
European countries? Because we like at least as my
17:08
American mind likes to bucket Europe as one place and it's
17:12
incredibly diverse. So what inter country or even
17:16
inter regional differences have you seen in matcha and in
17:19
specialty T more generally? Yeah.
17:22
So I think that's that's a good, good point.
17:24
Overall, I would say that it's almost the same except for
17:29
that's a that's a one thing that is the same is that most of the
17:32
brand, the most of the specialty places that I've visited, most
17:36
of the people offering matcha in let's say more upscale eateries,
17:42
they are offering ceremonial matcha, at least they claim is
17:45
ceremonial matcha. So like you already see that the
17:49
appealing to the customers is there.
17:50
So like they want ceremonial matches.
17:53
There are so-called influencers that actually are going to the
17:58
different kind of matcha bars or like places where they say
18:02
matcha and they do comparative tasting and they have maybe the
18:06
opportunity to actually just let's say influence so much the
18:10
public opinion that they cannot risk actually having a product
18:15
that is not in line with what is, what is the market offering.
18:20
So that's another particularity is actually that the matcha is
18:23
actually ceremonial. So the the important part is
18:27
that as well that you could technically drink it alone, like
18:32
without latte, because the quality is very good.
18:35
And if I compare it like all the cafes that I've tried in Europe,
18:40
they are offering really good quality and is generally not,
18:44
not sweetened. So like ceremonial grade and not
18:47
sweetened while in other markets, like when I was in, in
18:51
Taiwan, but also some, some of the concussion that I tried from
18:55
US, they actually put sugar into already the matcha.
18:59
So like your drink is already sweetened and the colour is not,
19:03
is not there for the moment. So that's that's a point that
19:07
actually I can see across all the different kind of speciality
19:09
coffee, ceremonial. Another point of let's say
19:15
similar is that everybody's creating matcha bars.
19:18
So like the matcha bar is a place where you go and Tabor
19:23
your matcha so you have the possibility to customize it.
19:26
So this is across Amsterdam, across Germany, across Paris,
19:31
across Italy, across Switzerland and so on.
19:35
So like they are matcha bars. Some of them they are not
19:38
proposing only matcha. They have a small offer of
19:41
coffee, but some of them they actually proposing also tea.
19:44
So like kind of like matcha and tea bar.
19:47
So and one point that I can definitely notice as well is
19:52
that it doesn't stop to the customization into drinks like
19:57
occasion coffee drinker, but goes into cocktails or
20:02
mocktails. So like the matcha, the really
20:04
span into the possibility of being a drink for occasion.
20:09
Across almost all the all the eateries on the speciality
20:13
coffee places that you that I have experienced so differences.
20:18
You have degree of sweetness, which is something that is very
20:22
important because every country has a different kind of, let's
20:25
say palette and is used to a certain flavours.
20:29
I think that in in Paris, but those in Belgium there is more
20:32
attention to the Craftsman of the drinks and the balance.
20:36
So like you can still feel the matcha other places that are
20:41
doing it a little bit more, let's say mainstream, you cannot
20:45
feel it. Or at least you, you cannot
20:48
really identify this matcha dude cannot identify the vegetable
20:53
taste of mummy. So it's a little bit more
20:55
difficult also quality wise, despite the often ceremonial,
21:00
some of them is still not there. So it's good quality.
21:04
But nevertheless, you can see there is a difference into what
21:08
is offering in normal centers and in other like in other
21:11
places in in in the country. And I think that's almost it.
21:16
So like it's about. So there are not so many
21:18
differences actually, once you visit like the beauty is also of
21:24
globalization, let's call it the beauty is that all the places
21:27
are almost uniform. You go in bars.
21:30
So the latest Cafe is very similar to what you have in in
21:35
Hamburg. You go at the very similar to
21:37
have in Paris is the same minimalist clean aesthetic that
21:42
you can find everywhere. So once you try say once you try
21:46
it, once you try it all, it's not true.
21:48
Because for instance, some of the countries are more inclined
21:51
to witness. So they allow you to add protein
21:55
and collagen and also other scoops of matcha into the drink
21:59
to feel it more. So like there is an attention
22:02
more on the Wellness side. And then some other places.
22:06
They are just places where you can experience the Japanese
22:09
culture while some other places that you can see that is more a
22:13
multi brand Viber where you take your drink.
22:15
Maybe you stay there to wait for your drink, but then you leave
22:19
and you savor it outside. So most of the brands actually
22:23
are take away. It's not possible to consume it
22:26
in like on site except some of them that are a little bit more
22:31
upscale. So they created the space just
22:34
for this. But by default it's A to go
22:37
drink. So like, it's a meal, tea drink
22:39
basically. Yeah, interesting.
22:42
That's really interesting to. There's this sort of concept
22:45
that is floating around that matcha has almost transcended
22:48
tea that's kind of living its own life.
22:51
Like, do you feel that or because like everything that
22:54
you're saying, it feels like it it's living, It's, it's a
22:57
completely new subculture within tea, but people don't even view
23:01
it as tea. Actually in France, when I talk
23:03
to the average person, I don't think a lot of people realize
23:07
that one, it's tea. And like a lot of people,
23:10
shocking to me, considering how much French people care about
23:13
where their food comes from, they don't think of it as a
23:15
Japanese product. Like, is that true in your
23:18
experience? Like do people realize it's tea
23:20
or that it's even like sort of originally a Japanese product or
23:25
is it they care more about, I don't know, ceremonial grade or
23:29
or the health claims, the functional benefits?
23:32
I'll start with the second part is actually about Japan.
23:34
Yes, definitely. I think the love like people
23:38
really care about Japan. That is a Japanese product.
23:43
OK. There is a stigma when you are
23:45
proposing a Chinese. Most of the brands that are
23:49
actually advocating that they have ceremony much they say much
23:53
of from Muji from Japan and sometimes they expressly
23:57
indicated on the doors in Hamburg for instance, this new
24:00
cafe, a new new macho bar where I was actually mentioning 100%
24:05
coming from Muji Japan. So like the origin is coming
24:09
from Japan because now we are in a stage of the market with
24:13
everybody more or less knows that is coming from Japan and
24:17
everybody in love with Japanese culture.
24:20
They actually tried and they experienced much because you can
24:25
you you see that there is a surge of tourism.
24:28
I think that this last year alone there were 40,000,000 of
24:32
tourists in in Japan and there is a craze about Japanese
24:35
product and everything that is Japanese.
24:38
It's kind of view in a more like very flattering testing.
24:43
And as well matcha is part of it in this case of matcha because
24:47
matcha in Japan is consumed not so much as a latte.
24:52
So you can go in specialty coffee, but it's not the same
24:56
kind of vibe that you have here. It's more about taking the time
25:00
ceremonial, so ritual part experience it pure and then
25:06
maybe try it in an alternative way, but doesn't start as a
25:09
default to actually have like the latte experience in in mind.
25:15
It just matcha with in a bowl with a certain setting, maybe
25:20
with a ceremony with the wagashi.
25:23
So like a sweet treat to accompany the say the vegetable,
25:26
the mummy flavour of the matcha. So that is a completely
25:29
different experience. So a lot of people are maybe
25:33
drawn as well when they come back from Japan, they really
25:37
want to experience the same kind of like feeling that they had in
25:40
matcha with matcha in Japan. And they go maybe for something
25:45
that is not a lot, but maybe a matcha tonic or just a simple
25:49
matcha with water if they serve it in a bowl.
25:52
And they really love the ceremony part.
25:55
So like they are more interested in actually taking the moment
25:58
and preparing it at home as they they they want.
26:03
So that is one part. Second of all, I think that eat
26:06
transcended tea. Yes, of course, like milk tea,
26:08
transcended milk tea, like like bubble tea, we call it bubble
26:11
tea is better because actually it's not milk.
26:14
I mean, it's milk, but you have the bubbles inside.
26:16
So people know a little bit more about it.
26:19
But yes, I don't think that a lot of people realise that much
26:23
is tea. They just think that it's a
26:25
powder that is coming from a different plant that you
26:28
actually have a tea. And most of the people they
26:30
don't know that is coming residency.
26:32
So yes, I do believe that those that let's say those that are in
26:39
the in like they, they experience a lot of tea, don't
26:43
view matcha as the thing that to consume every day.
26:47
Those that really come from an experience of like latte after
26:52
your matcha run. Because here in in Europe, like
26:56
in Brussels, you have clubs, matcha run clubs.
26:59
Basically they they run together and then Sunday morning they get
27:04
their matches at the February spot.
27:05
And then the sport changes every time basically.
27:08
Like you see that is kind of part of Wellness.
27:11
Yeah, indeed. But this is not a tea community.
27:15
It's a matcha community and it's more a Wellness community.
27:18
So we are focused on the Wellness and on the well-being
27:23
that the matcha is having on your body after a run.
27:27
So to reply to your question, yes, definitely I think that is
27:30
not a tea product, is not considered a tea product by many
27:34
people. Many people don't know that the
27:36
powder is actually green tea. Now there are more and more
27:39
people that are informing even if sometimes there are a little
27:43
bit controversial informations, but we don't care about it
27:46
because the base is there and that there are a lot of people
27:50
that know that is coming for a green tea that has been shaded.
27:54
And so to develop to the kind of green that we are expecting
27:58
having from the matcha. And how have you seen you, you
28:00
mentioned that it's important to more and more important to
28:03
consumers and businesses that it's a Japanese product.
28:06
But how have you seen like Korean or Chinese matcha or even
28:10
like Vietnamese? You you start to see these new
28:12
origins are producing countries, like how are they being received
28:18
and like what, what's how, how, what's the picture of that on
28:22
the ground in your experience? I think you need to already
28:25
differentiate between B to B&B to C, OK.
28:30
All the B to C brands are actually coming from Japan, most
28:34
of them. So like if you want to sell as a
28:36
private your own label, it's coming from Japan most of the
28:41
time from Moji. So like ceremonial grade and
28:44
premium grade. So like you have already the
28:47
origin is already settled. If you want to sell Japanese
28:50
like Chinese matcha, I think you can do it B to B, But a lot of
28:55
consumers still have a stigma against consuming Chinese
28:58
matcha. So like there will be more less
29:01
consumers actually having much Chinese matcha.
29:04
And if you want to build a business with let's say with
29:08
selling Chinese matcha and it's not B to B but B to C, it's a
29:12
little bit more difficult despite if you consider the
29:16
market, overall market and the volumes of the market.
29:20
Yes, most of this coming from from Japan.
29:22
But in reality, most the businesses that are now like
29:26
producing more volume are actually offering Chinese
29:29
matcha. So I think that that's quite an
29:33
interesting part that consumers don't really know if their
29:38
matcha is coming from, from China.
29:40
If they're, if I, I, I, I ask because most of the time I like
29:45
to ask where is the matcha is coming from?
29:47
And in the beginning, for instance, they were only like
29:50
Japanese matcha. But then my speciality coffee
29:54
place, they actually, I talked with them and, and most of the
29:58
speciality coffees that they have, like we take the matcha
30:01
from this, is it Japanese or Chinese is Chinese.
30:05
So almost almost all the cafes. So almost all the cafes that are
30:10
supplied by the leaders in the market, they're supplied to B to
30:15
B. They are choosing Chinese matcha
30:19
interest of the price point. And because is price point, but
30:23
also tasty. Some of the rest like culinary
30:26
matcha are really good as well in the Chinese.
30:28
If you want to use it for a cake, if you want to use it for
30:31
latte, it's perfectly fine actually to use a Chinese
30:34
matcha. Just that consumers wise will
30:37
never get that kind of, I don't know that kind of feeling of
30:41
consuming Chinese product, which is not correct.
30:45
But however, there is the stigma of of consuming Chinese project
30:49
and this idealisation of offering a Japanese product to
30:55
the consumers. OK, very interesting.
30:59
Have you seen more and more like I I don't have the right
31:02
vocabulary specialty matcha grow within Europe like people
31:06
offering single cultivars, different origins, like how have
31:10
you seen that? Because it's everywhere.
31:12
But typically you'll just see ceremonial as you said, maybe
31:15
Uji. Yeah.
31:17
Or actually most places it just has manja, but like where
31:20
there's more and more product distinctions within the
31:22
category. There are a couple of places
31:25
that they were there before the craze, I mean during the craze,
31:31
but it was a little bit more control.
31:33
So people were just discovering. There is one place that comes
31:36
into my mind where I did my my tasting that actually you can
31:40
taste the fourteen types of different matchas from different
31:44
cultivars and different process as well of shading.
31:47
Some of them they are shaded only two weeks, other three
31:50
weeks. Some of them they are really
31:53
suitable for lattes. Some of them they are blends
31:56
cultivars, other they're just single cultivar.
31:58
For instance, one of the most impressive cultivar that I ever
32:03
tried is actually Uji Kari. So when I see this kind of
32:06
cultivar, I, I, I just purchase it because it's my taste and I
32:10
could drink this every day without anything.
32:13
Even if I put something that will ruin the vacha, but it's
32:16
all. It costs around €60 per 30
32:18
grams. So you need to as well
32:20
understand what is behind actually having a single
32:23
cultivar. So there are places, but of
32:26
course it's just fun up until thousands that are free much.
32:30
So I would say yes, there is a distinction sometimes from
32:33
premium and ceremonial. And if you ask what is the
32:37
cultivar, they will tell you that is a bland or is, I don't
32:41
know, akumidori or semidori like a bland.
32:44
It's it's possible to ask is not even in Japanese coffee and
32:50
teahouses is not expressly mentioned if you are not asking.
32:54
So they will say our matcha is coming from Muji or from
32:58
Kagoshima or from however is actually not not really
33:04
advertised like it's more concentrated into the knowledge
33:08
and there is this is this the this much are coming from this
33:12
area has been, I don't know produced in 2026 has been left
33:18
the tension has been left maturated in autumn and then has
33:21
been milded and has been richer. Not this kind of details for the
33:24
moment is not there and I think that will never be there except
33:30
in speciality places. So if you go for instance in at
33:36
Ogata in Paris, you have the possibility to try different
33:42
kind of matches. You have also, for instance,
33:44
I've tried now a matcha yokuro that is coming from from Kaori.
33:50
She's has been importing tea and spices from from Japan since a
33:55
long time. She was one of the first one
33:57
getting into speciality tea and also convincing restaurants to
34:02
adopt A better quality of tea. And she has amazing matcha and
34:07
it's just it just a great quality.
34:11
However, where is sold in one or two niche supermarkets, some
34:15
Japanese festivals where there are crazy people like myself
34:19
that actually spend a lot of money on tea.
34:22
But in general, like you have because people don't know about
34:26
the product and and most of the time now they are discovering
34:30
more. But nevertheless like the
34:32
default setting is machalate. And now as well in Japanese
34:36
fairs you have people serving machalate.
34:39
That was not the case two years ago.
34:41
For instance, you had only like teas like yokuro, sencha and so
34:48
on and so forth, but possibility to drink and normal matcha with
34:52
the ceremony and that's that's it.
34:54
So you had not the possibility to really have lattes.
34:56
Now actually all the fairs are offering as well lattes into
35:00
their selection or matcha tonic, which I think that is a good way
35:05
to actually perceive the taste of matcha way much more than
35:08
latte and really suited well. But now like there is no limit
35:12
to the creativity of it. True, true.
35:17
So there's been like an explosion of new Matcha brands,
35:20
both new brands and brands from outside Europe wanting to enter
35:25
Europe. What are some like common
35:27
mistakes that you see when people are trying to get their
35:31
brand established, you know, in this market?
35:33
There is no real differentiation like in the beginning what there
35:37
was, there was like there was one or two brands saying that
35:42
claiming that your match is coming from MUJI, that you
35:44
source it directly, that you've been visiting the farms was a
35:48
unique selling point. Now is there is not such a thing
35:52
like everybody's claiming the same kind of virtues.
35:57
Everybody is like putting pictures of their visit to the
36:01
to the tea factories and some of them they are also explaining
36:06
that, but they are very few of them most of the time is female
36:10
narrative. So like they're female, went to
36:13
Japan, they fell in love and they open a tea brand, they open
36:17
a match bar if they have the possibility and they have the
36:20
right affluence and there is a sort of beautification of the
36:24
brand, but it's a very pasting copy feeling.
36:29
So they are not, I would say. What are the common mistakes?
36:34
Is that what is your unique selling point now in the
36:37
saturated market? The Yeah.
36:39
Totally. The whole playbook will work.
36:42
Yeah. And indeed.
36:43
And then you have I think that as well another point is that
36:47
it's more a word on the type of brand and aesthetic than
36:51
actually on the product itself. Because yeah, you can have an
36:56
amazing match and you can be on your can be have installed like
37:01
very great relationship with the producers from a long time ago.
37:06
However, I mean, I'm, I'm always doubtful about the narrative
37:10
behind it. And also most of the products
37:13
that I've tried, and I tried many brands because I'm curious
37:15
about it and because I'm studying the market, you can
37:19
realise that they're almost all the same.
37:23
Some of them they really deficient themselves.
37:25
Like I have like Calorie, for instance, but also the brand
37:29
that I'm collaborating to the moment is actually offering
37:34
Kagoshima produce like Machaka Kagoshima produce in Kagoshima
37:38
and Miyazaki. And they have an amazing, let's
37:41
say story. They already were part of a
37:45
family of merchants of tea. They had like his Japanese, he
37:49
moved to to the Netherlands. So you he actually wanted to
37:53
make much accessible for everybody.
37:55
So like he's he's offering the ready Kagoshima Matra.
37:59
It's a blender, but it's very accessible in comparison what
38:03
you find in the market where you pay more the packaging that
38:07
actually the product that you are experiencing.
38:09
And some of the brands and I'm not nominating, they are putting
38:14
like wrong nutritional values because some of the brands they
38:18
are advocating that there are a lot of calories into the matcha,
38:21
which is not true actually. Well, matcha doesn't have any
38:24
calories like tea and the nutritious facts are completely
38:28
wrong when it's a ceremonial matcha.
38:30
So like it's the problem is so it's a more a word on the brand,
38:35
which there's nothing wrong with it instead of really being a
38:38
word on the product which their consumers can really see the
38:43
value in the long term. Of course, I would say if I had
38:47
to create my own matcha brand today, I will not change the
38:52
pasting copy model because most of them they are sold out.
38:57
If you have a good so how it's happening currently, you have a
39:01
good affluence base, maybe you're an influencer, maybe
39:04
you're a girl into Wellness and Pilates.
39:08
You say, OK, I want to offer something to my consumer.
39:12
The matcha is actually offering a matcha is actually the
39:16
quickest, easier way to sell tea and to sell lifestyle basically
39:21
because it's not to read. The tea is more the lifestyle
39:24
that comes along. And then you have you prepare
39:27
it, you select it, you do some videos on like drinking it after
39:31
Pilates and you sell it because you have the customer base via
39:36
social media. So this is like the default
39:39
setting. And then you create your website
39:42
with two products and that's it. Just the packaging is different.
39:47
However, some of them, of course, they have different
39:49
products, but most of them I would say that the products
39:53
don't surprise, don't really surprise me anymore.
39:56
But of course, I'm picky. So as well, I tasted a lot and,
40:01
and it's very difficult for me product to be surprising.
40:04
There are some that I still appreciate that they put amazing
40:08
quality and, and you can see the colour and you can really taste
40:11
the matcha and you have that feeling of, of umami of your
40:15
taste of energy that is rushing through your body.
40:19
But they are very few. I have in mind 2 here in in
40:23
Belgium and that's it. Well, I mean, they have a double
40:27
problem because not only if they create a brand, but you have to
40:29
find a good product and to find a good product from Japan that's
40:34
EU compliant is very challenging.
40:37
That's for something that tastes good.
40:40
I don't think it's very challenging to be honest with
40:42
you. I think that yes, the prices
40:44
have risen because we have a problem with production.
40:47
However, if I had to decide to open a match a brand, if I would
40:52
go to a wholesaler, not a producer directly.
40:58
And even now producers are actually like people that are
41:02
commercializing brands. They know that they need to
41:05
secure it to the one year before the the quantities that they
41:08
might need. But to be honest with you, I
41:11
would, I would not have a lot of problem I think in if I had to
41:15
create a brand in two weeks time.
41:18
Now with the technology we have, I will have a match, a brand and
41:22
my packaging would be ready. Yeah, that, that's a really good
41:25
point actually, because my mind always thinks back straight to
41:28
the producer. But you're so right.
41:30
There's like these people in the middle, like these middle men,
41:33
which everyone likes to hate, actually provide a ton of value.
41:36
They've already laid out the cash, they have the inventory,
41:39
they have the relationships, their packaging solutions like
41:42
they're ready to go. They've solved the problem for
41:44
you. So as well like you also need to
41:47
understand that there are tests to be done for the products
41:51
that. Yeah, totally.
41:53
It's. Very expensive and so like
41:56
having a middleman like a whole supply, a whole like whole
42:00
supplier and importer that are ready to care of everything and
42:04
you just need to say this is the packages that I want and they
42:09
add on top of what you are requesting of the product.
42:12
Also like the packaging. Honestly, it would not be a big
42:16
problem. It would be a big problem if I
42:19
have to offer like single cultivar, if I have to offer
42:24
maybe matches that are very well known with some masters that
42:28
they have really limited the quantities.
42:31
If you really want to do it in a geeky way, it will be difficult.
42:36
If you want to do it more, let's say you want to have a big like
42:40
a cash flow, not a big one because still like there is a
42:43
lot of margin, but nevertheless, like it's not impressed.
42:46
Like it's not a lot. I think that it's if I would
42:49
have a minimum of capital, yeah, in two weeks, I would be maybe
42:54
3, let's say 3 weeks, I would be able to launch my brand.
42:57
What do you think the consequences of that are?
43:00
Because you see a flood of like it's easy to create a website.
43:04
You plug in Shopify, they have three PL. services.
43:08
You buy from a distributor that is the importer of record, takes
43:12
care of all the paperwork like. So I think that I talked with
43:16
somebody as well in the industry that actually is still committed
43:19
to offering big quality like good qualities.
43:23
But the problem is for good quality, much of the prices is
43:26
really raising a lot. So if you already like have a
43:30
big relationship with the producers and still the pricing
43:33
has been rising a lot in the in the last three years, I think
43:37
it's more than 70% or 100% in the right.
43:42
So it's a lot for a small business or for somebody wanting
43:45
to launch a brand. And I think one of the things
43:47
that they he mentioned is actually there are many, many
43:50
offers in the market, especially for Japanese and Chinese matcha
43:54
they're offering with a lower price point.
43:57
So let's say that you cannot really stay competitive on the
44:02
price average. You see, I do you can because
44:07
most of the so if you want to really have the B to B part,
44:12
it's impossible to stay competitive in the long term
44:15
with the with the clients that you are currently have because
44:19
the cafe will never choose a product to pay to pay product
44:23
really high price. If they have the possibility to
44:27
choose a product that has a, a smaller price.
44:31
And consumers, they still cannot take the difference about about
44:35
what is different in this product instead of the other.
44:38
So this is one problem that they can see a lot of people that
44:41
were present into the market like T businesses collaborating
44:45
B to B. So having as a client more
44:47
businesses, we are having a difficult time because if you
44:50
want to supply a quality product, so you need to pay the
44:53
price. And now there are more way much
44:55
more alternatives for cafes to actually choose from the quality
45:00
of matter. And since nevertheless the end
45:03
consumer is not going to really feel the difference because if
45:07
they consume most in lattes, that's really not perceptible at
45:12
all. And that's a problem that they
45:14
might have all those that are in the industry for a long time and
45:18
they they actually are committed to offering good quality.
45:22
They will have a hard time while others that they don't really
45:26
care about the quality they're offering.
45:28
Yeah, they might they might have the life of the time with the
45:32
volume. And also another point of point
45:36
that I think that it's important like quite to mention is that
45:40
pricing are almost the same like everywhere.
45:44
If you have a packaging from brand is around around forty
45:49
€4035 per 330 grams of matcha. So let's say you have a branded
45:56
product, so you pay paying that. This is the average that you
46:00
have. If you go to more, let's say
46:03
bigger brands of tea, you can have, you can have it with a
46:07
small pricing. So I can see that there is a
46:09
competition into the category because why a product should why
46:15
somebody should choose your product if they are paid the
46:17
same and the quality is similar, first of all.
46:22
And second of all, I think there is a problem with the fact that
46:26
if they, if a person wants to purchase good quality can go to
46:32
a speciality place and purchase it for way much less than
46:37
actually if you sell it as a private brand.
46:40
So there is that part also. One other point is actually that
46:44
most of the brands, they have an online shop.
46:46
So distribution, it's important to have like the speciality
46:51
cafes that are advocating your product so you can display it
46:55
and it's possible to purchase it after they try it in a latter.
46:59
So that's another problem that I can see not everybody's like
47:03
skilled to enter different kind of cafes.
47:05
You need a development plan and you you need as well to the
47:09
possibility to showcase your product.
47:11
So you need to have like a brand collaboration.
47:14
So maybe go in places that I don't know, I think about the
47:18
much as to like Pilate studios. I think about, I don't know, K
47:21
pop Korean, let's say cosmetics places where you can serve your
47:26
product and then people can can really buy it because people
47:31
will never really purchase your product if then they have not
47:35
tried it. It's impossible, like even.
47:38
Yeah, yeah. Especially if you're laying out
47:40
that much money online, you don't know what you're buying.
47:43
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's a lot in any case, like
47:46
€4040 for a can of 30 grams of matcha is enormous.
47:51
I mean, not for somebody that is crazy like us to spend a lot of
47:55
money in tea. But however, if you think about
47:58
the yeah, the, the, the amount of money, it's, it's a lot.
48:02
It's more than one euro program. Yeah, yeah, it's insane for
48:06
like, especially if you're asking the average consumer or
48:08
macho lover. It's it's risky too.
48:11
You're making a bet, not just not good.
48:14
How many times are you willing to do that before you drop out
48:17
of the category you know entirely?
48:21
No, it's fine. I mean, I, I, I still have some
48:23
brands because I tasted it quite a lot.
48:25
And when I tasted and I don't like it, I just put it in a, in
48:29
a latte or, you know, with a Tony or with some, some kind of
48:33
cream and it works OK. Because at the end is, it's, I
48:38
mean, you need to have like kind of balance of flavour, but it's
48:41
too bitter. I mean, I don't mind also
48:42
drinking too bitter because I like, I like a more bitter
48:47
taster. But for people that are not used
48:49
to it, like it's a no go and they need to create something.
48:53
And that's as well one of the points that I think that
48:56
differentiate also brands like your marketing and social media
49:02
education to your customers, the idea that you give them to the
49:06
community to create something to do a recipe to, to just use it
49:12
in an alternative way. Even for cooking example, like
49:15
give the example. I think that's could be another
49:18
differentiating factor for small brands having the right
49:22
community, having the community to actually support and show the
49:26
community, educate where it's coming from.
49:29
What like how to do it. It's another point because there
49:33
is an aesthetic behind, there is the possibility to customize,
49:38
there is a latte art that you can create.
49:40
So there is a old category that that they called the
49:44
beautification of matcha that can be explored into making a
49:48
brand successful. And then of course, like if you
49:52
think about the brands like the bigger brands like Annate, they
49:55
created books on educating people about matcha and whatever
50:00
is my opinion about the their matcha, like this is a winning
50:04
strategy in the long term because you are ready by writing
50:09
a book, you are proclaiming yourself a leader into a market,
50:13
despite now books psychic and not everybody's is reading them
50:17
because I mean, there is digitalisation of everything,
50:20
but they have a good, let's say selling point and they are if
50:24
you want to learn more like this is a reference you see.
50:28
Yeah, makes sense and really like localizing and resonating
50:32
with the customer base, especially in new languages.
50:35
And so in a lot of language, if you don't know English, it's
50:38
different, or even in some cases, if you don't know
50:40
Japanese, it's very hard to learn.
50:43
Yeah. But now like I say that for
50:45
instance, in a like a market as fragmented as Belgium where you
50:49
have the French speaking, you have the Flemish speaking and
50:53
then you have the English that is basically based mostly in
50:57
Brussels. But also like there are a lot of
50:59
immigrants. So like English is by default
51:01
language. You could say they are they are
51:04
brands per per parts, like per regions of of it.
51:09
Nevertheless, I think that now you can do a strategy based on
51:14
every in English and it's working very well.
51:17
Like most of the brands that I know they are speaking in
51:19
English or they are starting having like conversation in
51:23
French. So I can, I didn't think that is
51:26
like language can definitely can be a barrier, especially if
51:29
you're in France and you like if you're from UK or from if you
51:34
US, it will be a problem entering the French market.
51:37
Nevertheless, I don't think that language has become such a big,
51:41
such a big barrier considering that let's say that social media
51:46
has so much contribute to the influence of matcha and the use
51:50
of matcha that most of the accounts that are successful.
51:55
So most of the accounts that that have been open and talked
51:59
about and disseminate information about matcha or
52:03
wanting the brand to explore more, they, they are all in
52:07
English. So I mean, except from China,
52:09
but we're talking about more the European, let's say, market in
52:13
this. Sure.
52:14
OK, very interesting. I guess there's one last
52:17
question. What?
52:18
How do you want to see the future of the matcha industry,
52:21
or specialty tea industry in general, evolve in the next?
52:26
That's a good question. I used to say that I think
52:29
that's OK. So matcha will become now is
52:32
actually a common product that you can find in every specialty
52:37
coffee, almost everywhere, even kebab shops everywhere.
52:41
There is the possibility to exploit it, you can find it.
52:45
But I do believe that there is a saturation of the market that
52:48
will come naturally with time of course, when you reach that kind
52:52
of volume. So they will have sort of
52:55
competition war between the bigger brands and then the
52:59
competition war between the smaller brands and who'll win?
53:04
We'll see. But I do believe that we are
53:07
going to have it even more a product like common product.
53:11
Everybody will know about Matcha because it's already the case.
53:15
However, like there's still like a more, let's say season season
53:19
generation that still hasn't yet tried it, like refuses to try it
53:24
or more like it's not something that they will.
53:27
They will never give up coffee. They will never give up wine.
53:30
They will never try maybe matcha.
53:33
So like there is this season in generation.
53:35
But what what I can see is that once the generation will
53:41
slightly go on with the life in this case that it will be like
53:46
it, it will be by default. You'll find it everywhere.
53:49
Because I don't like generation X and generation like
53:54
millennials and Z and Alpha and all the different kind of they
53:58
will come, they will know about matcha.
54:01
So I say that is a bright future for the for the product.
54:06
However, we need to understand up until where there will be
54:11
quality and if the market will have like it's happening with
54:16
generally all the product categorisation.
54:18
You have the niche product, you have the medium like volume part
54:23
and then you have the mass volume that will go into.
54:26
I do believe that is, since Matcha is part of more culture,
54:30
a Wellness culture, up until there will be the Wellness
54:35
culture driving this kind of boom will not have a stop
54:40
because it can be is no more. A knife is actually a product
54:44
that you need to have to attract the consumers, to attract the
54:49
next generation consumer. You cannot have a cafe not
54:52
offering much. I mean you can choose like in
54:55
Germany, they choose to say OK, this establishment doesn't serve
54:59
much. However, yeah, when do you think
55:03
that this, the new generation will stop drinking coffee?
55:07
How many times like we could say that I stop drinking coffee,
55:11
Many other people's in my network stop drinking coffee
55:14
because it's like they don't, they don't cope functionally
55:17
with it. And they started with macho by
55:20
by chance, you see. And then step by step, they
55:24
actually, yeah, just consume matcha all the time and.
55:28
If they drink it every day for the rest of their life, that's
55:31
fifty 6070 years of consumption. It's compound growth, every new
55:36
person. Exactly.
55:38
Exactly. And then like it was like maybe
55:40
with grandma's passing up the recipes, that would be grandma's
55:44
recipe. I prefer, I prefer my matcha to
55:47
be with coconut milk instead of almond milk or pea milk.
55:51
And then with this kind of poor. So I do believe that there is
55:54
the possibility to actually that is there to stay.
55:58
So definitely that will be a more, it will become a mass
56:02
product. It's already a mass product.
56:03
It will become a mass product. It will also be present in cold
56:08
brew, already ready to drink. You have the example of of
56:12
Starbucks, the just lunch, the the ice matcha latte.
56:15
You can see it in already preparation with matcha and
56:20
oatmeal. Oatley is a good example.
56:22
They have this kind of preparation.
56:25
You have it with coconut, so it's already ready to drink.
56:28
So basically the only thing that you have to do is to heat up in
56:32
a microwave or put a little bit of cream on top and you have
56:35
your drink. So I do believe that is there to
56:39
stay in a little bit. I, I do hope that there will not
56:44
be this dichotomy that is generally happening between
56:47
tradition and innovation, saying, OK, like the innovation
56:51
is always better and it's the, the default way to drink it
56:55
because the traditional, how to consume matcha in a ceremonial
56:59
way is, is very interesting to preserve.
57:02
But yes, I, I do believe that the mass market would be there
57:05
for the matcha. And regarding speciality tea,
57:09
the hope is that more people get into matcha will be get more
57:13
interested into green teas and then from there going into
57:18
interest in in more and more tea.
57:20
And once you fill it in the rabbit hole of teas, you never
57:24
go back because there's so much to taste.
57:27
But of course, I do hope that there will be another product in
57:31
the tea category that will be able to create the same kind of
57:35
buzz as matcha. It might be, I don't see it.
57:38
So rose like say very, but let's let's hope there will be
57:45
somebody like some other products, say, for instance,
57:47
think about oolong tea can really be a great alternative
57:52
for the for the lattes can be I think about the black matcha
57:57
that the white orchard is offering like it's a it's really
58:00
speaking to a certain audience, somebody that doesn't like so
58:03
much the vegetable taste. People are loving it with oat
58:07
milk and with with a little bit of Maple syrup.
58:10
So I do, I believe there is the possibility.
58:13
The only problem is in the case of the speciality is the price
58:17
point, because the powder price point is always more elevated
58:21
than actually the tea. And already the teas are quite
58:24
elevated in the price to be competitive in our current
58:27
market. And maybe in the future market
58:29
we'll be able to compete. But it's too too much of a
58:32
difference between the consumption of tea as commodity
58:35
level when you pay a tea bag $0.15.
58:38
And then he added the special charity where you can pay 20
58:44
grams, I don't know, €20 or €25.00.
58:48
So it's very, very difficult to predict since it's such a, such
58:52
a big market and such a many variations to say this is a
58:57
product that will succeed. And as well, like, let's not
59:01
forget that the boom of matcha is done by the social media, by
59:06
the influencers, by the female, like the beautification of the
59:11
businesses. Everything is very pastel wise,
59:15
very beautiful. And of course, for the love of
59:17
Japan. So like the fact to we're
59:22
talking about a lot about Asia maxing or like China maxing as
59:26
well up until there will not be, let's say this kind of love for
59:32
particular product in China. That will be difficult.
59:36
Of course, if you think about also the the meal like the
59:39
bubble tea industry, that could be as well.
59:43
Another example is saying how where the speciality can go, you
59:46
can have more pointed products like you have Haiti, London.
59:53
Yeah, yeah, that they create good milk tea with cumin, black
59:57
tea with like Jasmine Pearl. They create, they really use the
1:00:02
the leaves into the production. So you could say they could be,
1:00:07
let's say a more consumption of good quality tea via the
1:00:13
preparation of the bubble tea or the lattice like a tea lattice.
1:00:17
So could be another way to see the industry in a positive
1:00:21
light. I'm not talking about Kung Fuchs
1:00:23
style, I'm just hoping that at least the quality of the teas
1:00:29
will be more available in like common establishment, indoor
1:00:33
like a sector. That makes sense.
1:00:35
And actually in China, I'm in and out of China all the time.
1:00:38
The number like Haiti for as you said, chuggy ginly crushed lemon
1:00:43
tea. They're like they're and they're
1:00:45
using like dancehall sometimes single cultivar dance on and
1:00:48
then smashing these fragrant lines.
1:00:50
It's so good. It's it would be really cool to
1:00:53
see some of that culture across the border.
1:00:56
But you see, like when I was in in Taiwan, I'd never drink any
1:01:00
matcha because the quality of matcha, it was not good.
1:01:03
Honestly, I tried three different kind of places and all
1:01:08
of them very disappointed as a like quality.
1:01:11
And to be honest, the quality of the tea is so good into like in
1:01:16
into the drinks, like the creation of the milk tea.
1:01:20
It's so good that you almost don't want to drink matcha for
1:01:24
the quality that there is currently in Taiwan.
1:01:27
So when you think about using high, high mountain lung, you
1:01:32
don't think like really low rental beauty into the base of
1:01:37
extracting really the flavours via concentrated brood.
1:01:42
Basically when you put a lot of leaves and then you have like
1:01:46
this kind of extraction, then you need to add just a little
1:01:48
bit of water and with a little bit of milk if you want to, or
1:01:53
just simple like that. Because there are chains that
1:01:55
actually serve it without adding anything.
1:01:58
Just the flavor profile of of a tea of the tea.
1:02:02
Yeah, that's that's amazing. Because then you can also
1:02:05
customize it with the sugar level.
1:02:07
You can customize it with the ice level.
1:02:09
You can customize it as you wish.
1:02:11
So like basically is like the matcha that we have here in in
1:02:16
Europe is almost as it is the bubble tea in Taiwan.
1:02:21
So like the level of customization is very similar.
1:02:24
The only difference that instead of the matcha, they use the tea,
1:02:28
the local tea that they have there.
1:02:30
Yeah. Yeah, that's a wonderful
1:02:32
connection and actually could be a very nice way that specialty
1:02:35
tea can grow within Europe. Like it doesn't have to look
1:02:38
like Kung Fu cha, doesn't have to look like Sanche dough.
1:02:41
It can take on these new forms that are a little more
1:02:43
contemporary. Yeah, I think so.
1:02:46
And the bright future in in Paris.
1:02:48
You have fan fan tea, Have you tried?
1:02:52
No, I haven't. Tea is basically the you can
1:02:55
have a dance song, you have a cumin black tea, you have a
1:02:59
base, a great base, and then you can add everything you can think
1:03:04
about, but it's already a good base of tea.
1:03:07
You see that it's already giving you the possibility to to take
1:03:10
first of all, to smell the leaves because they have the
1:03:13
possibility to smell the leaves to see the leaves how they are.
1:03:17
And then you you can top it off with whatever you feel like.
1:03:21
If you don't feel like getting anything sweet is fine.
1:03:25
But there is there are also a lot of interesting combination
1:03:28
with cream that they don't have any sweet and adjusted.
1:03:31
So like you can, you can really create a healthy drink without
1:03:36
the maturity vibe that you can have.
1:03:40
Very cool. Yeah, you should try it.
1:03:42
Yeah, I need to check it out. This was awesome.
1:03:46
Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights.
1:03:49
You're more than welcome, thank you for hearing from me and
1:03:52
sorry for blab blabbering so much.
1:03:54
No, no, no, we love that here. It's going down rabbit holes is
1:03:57
is what this podcast is all about.
1:03:59
If people want to learn more about your work and your
1:04:02
company, the website the best place to go to.
1:04:06
Is the website also I'm starting to get very active on on
1:04:10
Instagram or LinkedIn? I'm very, very active because my
1:04:14
work is mostly from the business perspective, so I need people to
1:04:18
realise what is going on in the industry, especially here in
1:04:22
Europe. But most of the my work, it can
1:04:25
be found on the website. I have more than 90 interviews
1:04:28
with people in the industry. Yes, it's a really big, big
1:04:32
database of learning. You just need to have the
1:04:35
patient to, to read and to be interested by by the topic.
1:04:40
There are slightly changing it because I would like people to
1:04:43
to have a more to be more at ease to look for topics.
1:04:47
So I might be saying, OK, this is the kombucha section, this is
1:04:51
the sparkling tea, this is the matcha section, so people can
1:04:54
can really see what is going on. And also, if you find me at
1:04:59
festivals, don't hesitate to to actually come and, and chat
1:05:04
about, about the tea. It's always nice to meet new
1:05:07
people in the tea and the beauty of the tea community still
1:05:12
quite, quite one of the things that that drove me actually to
1:05:16
the to the speciality. Tea people were the best, yeah.
1:05:19
I think so. So if you enjoyed this episode,
1:05:21
please consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you in the
1:05:24
next one. Thanks.
1:05:25
Take care. Thank you.