Latest / Ridiculous History / Micronations: How a Guy Got Ran Out of Town and Created San Marino

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Micronations: How a Guy Got Ran Out of Town and Created San Marino · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own console
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Speaker 1: or representative super producer Max, two Computers, Williams and Ben,
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Speaker 1: you're Noel, Noel. That's a that's a new nickname for
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Speaker 1: us for Max Isn't.
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Speaker 2: It what two computers or man of the people. Oh,
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Speaker 2: it could be a compound nickname either way. They're they're
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Speaker 2: they're new. But we've always known Max is had an
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Speaker 2: affinity for operating two computers simultaneously, and also so that
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Speaker 2: he is a magnanimous dictator in his own ring.
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Speaker 1: And today we are talking about another particular, incredibly unique community,
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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. You know, if you think about it, you
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Speaker 1: and us, we're all together kind of a little nation
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Speaker 1: of our own out there in the in the world
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Speaker 1: of podcasts. Yes, we are returning to micro nations, and
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Speaker 1: we've been going for some of the deep cuts recently.
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Speaker 1: Monaco most people know, but a lot of people didn't
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Speaker 1: know about Andorra. And I think San Marino is a
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Speaker 1: name many of us have heard before, but we might
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Speaker 1: not know much about it. Right, is that reasonable?
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Speaker 2: Not to be confused with Dan Marino, famous for his
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Speaker 2: role in ace Ventura Pet Detective, And I think he
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Speaker 2: also played a sport allegedly, and he never won a
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Speaker 2: super Bowl allegedly. That's just the kind of nice twist
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Speaker 2: that you're known for. Max, Now that's brutal me And
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Speaker 2: both these computers.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got one computer for the positive comments and
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Speaker 1: one for the negative. That's why you're a beast on Twitter.
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Speaker 2: Bro.
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Speaker 1: We found something really interesting as we were preparing for
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Speaker 1: the research here. San Marino is a real country. It
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Speaker 1: is recognized by the United Nations. It is, as Noel said,
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Speaker 1: a micro nation. I mean it's very very small. Its
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Speaker 1: population is much smaller than many US states. It was
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Speaker 1: also founded entirely sort of due to a case of
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Speaker 1: mistaken identity. So that's like our teaser at the top.
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Speaker 1: But before we do any of that, where is San Marino? No, Like,
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Speaker 1: if we're Carmen san diegoing this, could we point to
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Speaker 1: it on a map?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of where the top of the boot
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Speaker 2: meets the thigh of Italy. Yeah, perfect right, right, upper leg,
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Speaker 2: upper boot region of Italy. Yeah, it is in Italy.
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Speaker 2: But it's also like non in Italy. That's part why
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Speaker 2: this story is interesting because for whatever reason, the old
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Speaker 2: Holy Roman Empire seemed to give this little area a
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Speaker 2: pass and then allow it to kind of go on
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Speaker 2: existing as its own you know, territory, as its own nation,
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Speaker 2: which is really unusual because as we know, the Romans
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Speaker 2: were pretty famous for conquering and for just taking stuff,
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Speaker 2: sacking you know, cities and whatnot. And somehow this area
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Speaker 2: it kind of flew under the radar for quite some time,
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Speaker 2: and it's pretty interesting. So it was actually found in
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Speaker 2: between three oh one and three fifty CE by a Christian,
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Speaker 2: which as to the tension there, right, a Stonemason by
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Speaker 2: the name of Marinus, the Dalmatian human. Yeah yeah, not
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Speaker 2: not the cute cartoon dog with the celebrity voice.
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Speaker 1: He the Dalmatian in this sense.
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Speaker 2: For first people that are part of what is today
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Speaker 2: referred to as Croatia and Montenegro. There are to day
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Speaker 2: Dalmatian Italians. They do not have spots, however, So Marinis
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Speaker 2: comes from an island named rab And It's uh, yeah,
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Speaker 2: it's right, Rab or is it rob?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, do my up joke. It's pronounced the way
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Speaker 1: people in California, say Rob, I don't.
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Speaker 2: Think we have the rab Yeah, I got it, making
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Speaker 2: sure we're on the same base. So that's yeah. And
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Speaker 2: now he comes from the hails from the island of
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Speaker 2: rab And. This island was in his original day referred
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Speaker 2: to as Arbi, like the like the hat restaurant, or Arba.
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Speaker 2: He had a relatively serene, idyllic not particularly happen in
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Speaker 2: life there, you know what with being a Christian at all,
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Speaker 2: though he did still technically have the potential for harassment.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. So picture this guy as kind of working class.
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Speaker 1: He doesn't have a silver spoon, and his religious beliefs
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Speaker 1: make him a target for the Roman Empire. This is
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Speaker 1: where we get to something called the Diocletian Persecution. As
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Speaker 1: we know the Roman Empire, in addition to their love
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Speaker 1: of imperialism, they had a love of stamping out other
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Speaker 1: people's beliefs. And this persecution was actually the last and
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Speaker 1: the most severe persecution people who didn't vibe with the
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Speaker 1: Roman pantheon. So he high tailed it because this thing,
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Speaker 1: it didn't target specifically Christians common misconception, it targeted anyone
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Speaker 1: who was miscellaneous or was considered other in the Grand
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Speaker 1: scheme of Roman ideology. So, starting in three to Zho
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Speaker 1: three Common Era series, multiple emperors issued these laws that
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Speaker 1: took away various legal rights of Christians. And the big
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Speaker 1: thing was they said, everybody who lives here has to
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Speaker 1: make sacrifices to our gods, the pantheon of Roman gods.
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Speaker 1: And so if you, as a resident of the Roman Empire,
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Speaker 1: don't play along, you know, you don't kill the goats
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Speaker 1: or whatever when you're supposed to, then you can be
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Speaker 1: imprisoned or even executed. Meretis does a vibe.
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Speaker 2: With this, Yeah, and just you know, it's it's obviously
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Speaker 2: called the the a persecution and not like a genocide.
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Speaker 2: So it wasn't mass murdering of these people. It was
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Speaker 2: just making life very very inconvenient for them. And in
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Speaker 2: some extreme cases, you know, there could be executions. Usually
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Speaker 2: that would require people to push back pretty significantly, you know,
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Speaker 2: or have repeat offenses. But I don't know why I
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Speaker 2: sound like I'm being an apologist for the Roman empires. Well,
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Speaker 2: you know, at least they weren't murdering everybody.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, situations, it's it's tough to hurt the cats.
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Speaker 2: I just loved the idea of because if you look
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Speaker 2: at the way the story is described that there are
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Speaker 2: other persecutions. Oh yeah, oh like this is a thing
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Speaker 2: that happened throughout history, and I'd never really thought about
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Speaker 2: that before. So yeah, he takes off to escape the
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Speaker 2: Diocletian persecution and he goes to a place called Remini,
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Speaker 2: kind of like the actress the scientology actor Leah Remini Remini,
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Speaker 2: I think it's felt exactly the same way actually, and
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Speaker 2: starts a new life. Things are going relatively well, so
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Speaker 2: as we know he's a man of faith. He becomes
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Speaker 2: a deacon in his church and starts to develop a
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Speaker 2: bit of a reputation, becomes quite popular for his religious
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Speaker 2: pontificating or preaching if you prefer. And so but this
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Speaker 2: doesn't exactly the kind of but you know, if you're
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Speaker 2: out in the streets, you know, giving sermons, it's not
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Speaker 2: the best way to fly under the radar, exactly.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so we all know performance doesn't always go
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Speaker 1: as plans, especially if you're in a live venue, and
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Speaker 1: he is. He is a local celebrity, as you said,
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Speaker 1: street preacher, and in our boy Marenus's case, things go
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Speaker 1: very very off the rails. There is a character, an
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Speaker 1: eccentric person who keeps coming around. Imagine this as the
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Speaker 1: worst heckler slash stalker ever she is. Apparently, before he
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Speaker 1: even got into town, she was known for being let's
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Speaker 1: say it, she was known for being insane. That's how
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Speaker 1: people considered her. And so she would show up to
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Speaker 1: his sermons. I don't want to call him performances. She
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Speaker 1: would show up to his sermons and interrupt to claim
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Speaker 1: loudly and repeatedly that Marenus is in fact lying about
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Speaker 1: who he is. She's saying, you are my estranged husband,
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Speaker 1: I know you Donald or whatever, and she would not
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Speaker 1: hear otherwise, and none of this is true.
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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, like this is is the ravings
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Speaker 2: of an unwell person. She has chosen to target this
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Speaker 2: individual trying to go for clean living, preaching the word
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Speaker 2: in the streets, escaping you know, persecution from the Roman Empire,
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Speaker 2: and she is just jamming up his spot.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole thing. She's messing up the show, and
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Speaker 1: so it's stuff. It reminds me. This is so weird, man.
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Speaker 1: It reminds me of I think you and I talked
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Speaker 1: about this off air, because we do hang out as friends.
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Speaker 1: One time I was a dragon can for work. We're
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Speaker 1: filming some stuff and it was at the end of
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Speaker 1: the night where everybody's partying. I walked outside just to
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Speaker 1: get some air, and this guy came up to me.
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Speaker 1: He's like, oh, hey, Neil, what's up? And I said,
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man, I'm not Neil, and then beat me
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Speaker 1: here Max. He looked me up and down and he
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Speaker 1: said fuck you, Neil, and then walked off. And I
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Speaker 1: was like, what can you do? This is like kind
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Speaker 1: of what Marinus is going through centuries earlier. And so
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Speaker 1: he gets a lot of unwelcome attention. The town is
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Speaker 1: starting to say, I don't know, maybe he's just running
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Speaker 1: across and so god, yeah, he can't prove he is
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Speaker 1: not this deadbeat husband.
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Speaker 2: The story goes. So he leaves town again and again.
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Speaker 2: And it's not like he was in witness protection and
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Speaker 2: was changing his name, because you know, it wasn't the
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Speaker 2: only Roman empire certainly had spies and stuff, but this
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Speaker 2: guy wasn't exactly at the top of their list of
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Speaker 2: folks to track down at this point, right, So he
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Speaker 2: could have gone on just fine, you know, if it
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Speaker 2: hadn't been for this very unpleasant sounding woman. So he
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Speaker 2: does have to move again, and he he kind of
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Speaker 2: becomes something of a hermit.
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Speaker 1: Uh.
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Speaker 2: He literally finds himself a cave to live in. He
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Speaker 2: becomes a cave dwelling kind of monk. He creates a chapel.
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Speaker 2: He builds a chapel. I assume outside of the stuff
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Speaker 2: of the cave, the cave is just for sleeping in
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Speaker 2: nighttime behavior, which is a thing, it's a whole, you know,
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Speaker 2: genre of behavior. And he establishes a monastery in the
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Speaker 2: mega rural area that is like a bit difficult to reach.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those why would you go there
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Speaker 1: places at the time. It's very remote places you described,
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Speaker 1: called Mont Titano or Mount Titan. It's the highest of
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Speaker 1: San Marino's have seven hills. And because it is so
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Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, the local secular powers don't
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Speaker 1: really clock it. They don't care, they don't know what's
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Speaker 1: going on. Other people are feeling his vibe. You know,
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Speaker 1: let's get out of the day to day rat race
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Speaker 1: of our time and let's let's focus on living Christian lives.
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Speaker 1: So people start traveling there and living in the in
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Speaker 1: the area of the monastery. In the chapel, Marinus is
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Speaker 1: not a saint yet because he's still alive and he's
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Speaker 1: sort of a benevolent leader. But these folks are for
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Speaker 1: all intents and purposes, they are commune, and eventually, because
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Speaker 1: they were commune where nothing goes wrong. His reputation for
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Speaker 1: being a solid dude reaches the ears of the people
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Speaker 1: who legally technically officially own the land.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're like, yeah, you know, I mean, we
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Speaker 2: weren't really doing anything with it anyway. This guy seems
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Speaker 2: to be putting forth good works. People seem to dig
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Speaker 2: his vibe. I like the cut of his jib. I
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Speaker 2: like this whole little planned community that he's got going
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Speaker 2: on there. So why don't we just just is goog
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Speaker 2: and can bequeath this land to this community? You know,
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Speaker 2: one person's monastery is another person's cult. This is what
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Speaker 2: I'm just putting it out there. True, what has I
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Speaker 2: don't know, it just has it. It's no digs on
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Speaker 2: people of faith, but it's just you know, this is
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Speaker 2: like people that are kind of living rough in the mountains,
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Speaker 2: you know, kind of it feels like a planned community
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Speaker 2: kind of thing.
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Speaker 1: You know, It's it's a matter of perspective, you know,
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Speaker 1: And I think you're absolutely on the money there. It's
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Speaker 1: not offensive to say. So this, this landowner, Felissima, is
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Speaker 1: from Ramini, so she probably remembers some of the street preaching,
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Speaker 1: and she decides to do a mitzvah, although she almost certainly.
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Speaker 2: Did not call it that, right, and a real bad look.
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Speaker 1: Right. So, these people, this community, they're essentially mountaineers. She
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Speaker 1: gives them the land and she says, you own this
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Speaker 1: and you should always stay united in your mission, and
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Speaker 1: they take that to heart. Fast forward, Marinus dies, fast
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Speaker 1: forward again, he is canonized by the Catholic Church, and
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Speaker 1: so in his honor they name this land the land
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Speaker 1: of San Marino or Saint Marinas.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it, you know, what was at first a
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Speaker 2: very small kind of community begins to blossom and by
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Speaker 2: the mid fifth century you have the beginnings of a
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Speaker 2: little town. M h.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And this is how we know that the broad
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Speaker 1: strokes of the story are true. Now, granted, we told
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Speaker 1: you the most ridiculous one about the mistaken identity driving
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Speaker 1: the guy out, but we know the high points because
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Speaker 1: there's a monk named Eugipio who says, hey, there are
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Speaker 1: solid reports that there's a holy dude a hermit or
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Speaker 1: a monk living on this mountain, like you said, as
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Speaker 1: early as five eleven CE. And because it's poor, there
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Speaker 1: aren'tny great resources, it's tough to get to. It succeeds
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Speaker 1: and it stays independent despite many centuries of chaos. And
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Speaker 1: then we see later reports from the ninth century that say, well,
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Speaker 1: now that community has thrived for centuries, and it's currently
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Speaker 1: ruled by a bishop of some sort. And you can
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Speaker 1: go back and forth and see more and more mentions
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Speaker 1: in the historical record about San Marino as it becomes
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Speaker 1: not just independent, but increasingly well organized. I think by
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Speaker 1: what is it, seven fifty five. It gets mentioned in
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Speaker 1: one book and they talk about how they they now
15:21
Speaker 1: have a ruling structure of consuls, so they never had
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Speaker 1: a king. Really, this is why they have a claim
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Speaker 1: to be one of the oldest republics.
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Speaker 2: Right. And a bishop is just sort of a high
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Speaker 2: ranking member of the Christian clergy. They're also obviously Catholic bishops,
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Speaker 2: but this would have been a bishop in the Christian Church.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this would have been at this point. Yeah. Also,
15:47
Speaker 1: it's a little more loosey goosey, right, because of global
15:50
Speaker 1: communication and how it didn't exist. Yeah, none of that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Also part of the reason that this whole community
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Speaker 2: was able to fly into the radar for so long.
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Speaker 2: I mean, wasn't like word of this was spreading by
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Speaker 2: anything other than you know, right, people telling stories.
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Speaker 1: Right, right, exactly. And so because the commune was religiously motivated,
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Speaker 1: because they weren't making trouble and they did not possess riches,
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Speaker 1: they scooted under the radar for quite some time. They
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Speaker 1: were also known for a series of mountain fortresses because
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Speaker 1: they did want to defend themselves if something, if something
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Speaker 1: untoward happened. They also got protection from local nobles.
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Speaker 2: I think that's right. And you mentioned San Marino setting
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Speaker 2: up his kind of cave dwelling situation on one of
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Speaker 2: several peaks. I guess, so, I mean this this did
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Speaker 2: have sort of a strategic fortress like quality to it,
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Speaker 2: this whole area, which is going to come into play eventually,
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Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the protection that they get from their geography
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Speaker 1: and from the hills and the fortresses they build, it
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Speaker 1: is further exacerbated by the protection they receive from these
17:15
Speaker 1: these various powerful families in Italy. Maybe we talk a
17:19
Speaker 1: little bit about their government. They never had a king,
17:23
Speaker 1: they did have a self governed assembly. This was called
17:27
Speaker 1: the erech Eringo. I want to say, eringo ar e
17:31
Speaker 1: n g O.
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Speaker 2: I think that sounds as this is as good a
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Speaker 2: guess as any. So this is essentially just sort of
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Speaker 2: like a council, right, This is like, yeah, so it's
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Speaker 2: a body of governance, but it's not ruled by a
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Speaker 2: single individual.
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Speaker 1: No, it's the heads of each family, because again it's
17:54
Speaker 1: still a really popular, really small population. And in twelve
17:58
Speaker 1: forty three they established the these positions, these roles captain's regents,
18:04
Speaker 1: they're the joint heads of state, and their earliest laws
18:08
Speaker 1: in this form date back to twelve sixty three. And
18:12
Speaker 1: then fast forward a few decades and the Pope agrees
18:16
Speaker 1: the Holy See confirms the independence of San Marino in
18:20
Speaker 1: twelve ninety one.
18:22
Speaker 2: Got to get something on the table. You have always
18:24
Speaker 2: been confused as to why it's called the Holy See. See.
18:29
Speaker 2: Maybe everyone out there that's known this for years is
18:33
Speaker 2: laughing at me right now, but what is a c.
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Speaker 1: It's the the etymology. We should learn that now. I
18:41
Speaker 1: know that the Holy See is the phrase for the
18:44
Speaker 1: universal government of the Catholic Church.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I think it sounds to me like the etymology
18:50
Speaker 2: is descended from the word seat, so it's like that's
18:55
Speaker 2: their seat of government, you know, That's exactly I mean,
18:58
Speaker 2: this is what I'm seeing with with a cursory google.
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Speaker 2: But I just always found it funny because when you
19:03
Speaker 2: hear it, of course, in my mind I picture some
19:05
Speaker 2: sort of mystical ocean.
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Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, which would be way cooler, honestly, agreed.
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Speaker 2: So soey, So you're telling me that at this point
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Speaker 2: the Roman Empire is aware of this place, after all
19:17
Speaker 2: this time flying under the radar, and they do nothing.
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Speaker 1: They don't do anything. Really. The big power that these
19:26
Speaker 1: folks have to worry about is Catholicism, is the Vatican.
19:31
Speaker 1: And so because San Marino is not populated by a
19:35
Speaker 1: bunch of real bloodthirsty expansionist people, because they're not sitting
19:40
Speaker 1: on vast reserves of minerals or whatever, and they're also
19:44
Speaker 1: not at a strategically important location, it's kind of more
19:49
Speaker 1: trouble to get them in line than it is to
19:52
Speaker 1: ignore them.
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Speaker 2: They just let them go on doing their thing and
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Speaker 2: they confirm their independence in twelve ninety one. It's super cool.
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Speaker 1: I guess yeah, right, And they said, look, we want
20:07
Speaker 1: to create the three Towers of San Marino to prevent
20:11
Speaker 1: other nations from attacking us, because not everybody is peaceful.
20:14
Speaker 1: They're still being realistic, and this was smart because various
20:20
Speaker 1: people did try to attack them, various war lords, essentially Montefeltro,
20:26
Speaker 1: the Maltesta of Rimini, the lords of Urbino, et cetera.
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Speaker 1: They try to conquer this thing, which is basically a village.
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Speaker 1: The land area here for a long time is just
20:38
Speaker 1: that one mountain, probably still with that weird cave, the
20:42
Speaker 1: highest peak where Marino initially took up residence. And in
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Speaker 1: fourteen sixty three the republic does lose its neutrality. They
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Speaker 1: throw in their hat in an alliance against the lord
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Speaker 1: of Remini at the time, and this name is epic.
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Speaker 1: Siggis Mondo Pandolfo Mala testa. How do you do very well?
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Speaker 1: What does he to his friends? Is he Pando? To
21:10
Speaker 1: his friends?
21:11
Speaker 2: Sigis maybe yeah, yeah, I like I like, yes, sigis
21:17
Speaker 2: Pando and that's right.
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Speaker 1: And he was later on though, defeated.
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Speaker 2: And then after that, because of this defeat, Pope Pius
21:26
Speaker 2: the Second bestows upon San Marino, some castles, uh, and
21:31
Speaker 2: some surrounding towns Fiorentino, Sara Valla, and Monte Giardino, which
21:40
Speaker 2: sounds delicious, does sound good? Wait a minute, I'm a
21:43
Speaker 2: little confused. So so they threw it. So San Marino
21:47
Speaker 2: throws into an alliance against our boys, Sigis Pando, and
21:51
Speaker 2: as a reward for defeating this guy who was bad news,
21:55
Speaker 2: it would seem the Pope bestowed upon San Marino some boons.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, just so spoils a war. And then later a
22:03
Speaker 1: town named Fatano joins San Marino of their own accord.
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Speaker 1: They just decide they like the vibe and they want
22:10
Speaker 1: to be a part of it. And since that time,
22:13
Speaker 1: since like the fourteen sixties, the territory of San Marino
22:18
Speaker 1: has remained unchanged. It's now by this time, by what
22:24
Speaker 1: are we, middle of fifteenth century. It's ruled by a
22:27
Speaker 1: grand council. They're all dudes, because sam Marino is not
22:31
Speaker 1: that progressive yet, and they are from this earlier assembly
22:35
Speaker 1: of families, and they cooperate. They play the game of geopolitics,
22:41
Speaker 1: and they make sure that they can ward off any
22:45
Speaker 1: serious attacks, any attempts to take over their land.
22:50
Speaker 2: And then a famous family of conquerors. You may have
22:53
Speaker 2: heard of the Borgias, which I think Max we're talking about.
22:56
Speaker 1: There are they like.
22:57
Speaker 3: So Assassin's Creed two Daddy Born shows a bad guy
23:00
Speaker 3: in an Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, which is the direct sequel,
23:04
Speaker 3: his son is the bad guy. So the Borges are
23:06
Speaker 3: all over Assassin's Creed, and the Borgia are ridiculous in
23:09
Speaker 3: real life. Oh yeah, it's just insane. They're just a
23:12
Speaker 3: little bit worse when you give them apples of Eden
23:14
Speaker 3: and stuff.
23:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, oh good call nice callback staff Eden.
23:20
Speaker 3: Uh huh, all that kind of stuff.
23:22
Speaker 1: Not everybody liked that aspect of the Assassin's Creed mythos,
23:26
Speaker 1: but it was one of my favorite parts.
23:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't like every person out here in
23:30
Speaker 3: this world.
23:30
Speaker 1: Either, all right, Geez, maxis on is his violent computer today?
23:35
Speaker 2: No tyrant, his tyrant absolutely.
23:38
Speaker 1: So.
23:39
Speaker 2: At this point, San Marino has been occupied by outside
23:43
Speaker 2: militaries several times, but each time they've kind of been vanquished,
23:48
Speaker 2: or it's just kind of they've moved on to greener bastors.
23:52
Speaker 2: Let's just say. Yeah.
23:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, no matter how peaceful you try
23:58
Speaker 1: to be, there will be power hungry people around right,
24:02
Speaker 1: and they want their problems to be yours. So luckily,
24:05
Speaker 1: each time sam Marino has been able to successfully repel
24:11
Speaker 1: the invasion or get on the other side of it
24:13
Speaker 1: so that they are not permanently annexed or taken over.
24:18
Speaker 1: The three times you mentioned when a foreign military came in,
24:22
Speaker 1: two were in the feudal era. Like we said, Caesar
24:24
Speaker 1: Borgia occupies the Republic in fifteen oh three, but only
24:28
Speaker 1: for a few months because then the old guy.
24:30
Speaker 3: Kicks the bucket when Seo takes him out.
24:32
Speaker 1: When Seo takes him out, and then you fast forward
24:36
Speaker 1: October seventeenth, seventeen thirty nine. There is a papal governor
24:41
Speaker 1: of Ravenna who decides to kind of go out of
24:46
Speaker 1: pocket against the pope and uses a military force to
24:50
Speaker 1: occupy sam Marino. He puts in a new constitution. Oh,
24:53
Speaker 1: we should say his name, Cardinal Julio Alberoni, and he says,
24:58
Speaker 1: we're going to force these people to submit to the
25:02
Speaker 1: governance of the Pontifical states. They protest, They actually do
25:07
Speaker 1: like you know, like you would see a protest in
25:09
Speaker 1: the modern day. They're out there in their fists, yeah,
25:14
Speaker 1: at the sky. Maybe they got signs with clever puns.
25:17
Speaker 1: They're being civilly disobedient, and then people are sending notes
25:21
Speaker 1: to the pope saying, come on, man, what's up with
25:23
Speaker 1: your boy? He's harsh in the whole vibe. I love
25:26
Speaker 1: his position title. It's a word for a papal governor,
25:31
Speaker 1: a legate, which I also believe was a like Roman
25:35
Speaker 1: official in the Roman military, because I seem to recall
25:39
Speaker 1: if you've ever played Fallout in New Vegas, you know
25:42
Speaker 1: how there's the whole like kind of Roman contingents that
25:45
Speaker 1: are all like dressed in sandals and you know, kind
25:48
Speaker 1: of Roman military garb. I believe one of the high.
25:51
Speaker 2: Ranking baddies in that group is referred to as a legate.
25:56
Speaker 3: I know in the Kardashtian Empire, the high rank you
26:00
Speaker 3: can hear is leg it because it goes leg it,
26:03
Speaker 3: then it is goal like gold cod, and then it
26:06
Speaker 3: goes to Glynn. Glynn is the lowest rank at least
26:11
Speaker 3: that they say that.
26:11
Speaker 1: Loud leggot is a yeah, And all of these examples work.
26:15
Speaker 1: A legate is an official rep that is sent to
26:18
Speaker 1: a foreign country. So in the world of the Holy
26:22
Speaker 1: see here we go, a legate is functioning as a
26:27
Speaker 1: governor of a foreign land more or less.
26:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, the character can fall out New Vegas was Leggot Lanias.
26:33
Speaker 2: By the way, good Naw, voiced by Mitch Lewis of
26:36
Speaker 2: video game voice acting fame.
26:39
Speaker 1: So okay, where are we now now? Grim also has
26:42
Speaker 1: legates in the region. Yeah, well there you go.
26:44
Speaker 2: Well it's the same. Those are Those are both? So
26:48
Speaker 2: what's that company that Makethesta? This are both Mathestic games.
26:51
Speaker 2: They love the good Leggo and Bethesta. I st we're
27:00
Speaker 2: gonna have fast forward in history a little bit to
27:02
Speaker 2: the late seventeen hundreds, around seventeen ninety seven, where San
27:07
Speaker 2: Marino becomes a bit of a chess piece in the
27:12
Speaker 2: Napoleonic Wars. It's a conference between France and the Papal States.
27:16
Speaker 2: But the interesting thing is that San Marino doesn't really
27:20
Speaker 2: kind of belong to either of them. Like they're officially
27:24
Speaker 2: recognized by Napoleon through the Treaty of Talentino, but they
27:30
Speaker 2: kind of even though on paper, you know, they belong
27:33
Speaker 2: to Napoleon on they still kind of remain their own thing,
27:39
Speaker 2: right I'm reading that right?
27:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, in practice they're still sovereign, and you nailed it,
27:45
Speaker 1: saying that they get used as a chess piece or
27:48
Speaker 1: people are trying to use them. Napoleon invades Italy and
27:51
Speaker 1: he's looking for all the friends he can get, right,
27:54
Speaker 1: so he goes to San Marino and says, look, I
27:57
Speaker 1: very much respect your republic. You know I will well, actually,
28:01
Speaker 1: if you throw down with me, then I will expand
28:05
Speaker 1: your territory. And this is where we get to a regent.
28:08
Speaker 1: We want to shout out Antonio Onofri. His family's a big,
28:12
Speaker 1: big deal in San Marino and has been for many years.
28:15
Speaker 1: Napoleon is camping nearby. He hits up the sam Ma
28:18
Speaker 1: Reno gang and he says, publicly support me. I'll make
28:22
Speaker 1: sure we get you more land, and Onofrie says, very politely,
28:27
Speaker 1: he says, look, our big thing is not coveting our
28:32
Speaker 1: neighbor's territory. We appreciate it. If you want to send
28:35
Speaker 1: us some wheat or some supplies, that's dope, but we're
28:40
Speaker 1: not about stepping on other people's toes that way. And
28:43
Speaker 1: then later he says his thinking was war's end, but
28:48
Speaker 1: neighbors remain. And I thought that was so cool because
28:51
Speaker 1: this move, this one move likely saved their independence. If
28:56
Speaker 1: they had thrown in with Napoleon, then when Napoleon, when
29:00
Speaker 1: all his stuff went sideways, they would have had serious consequences.
29:04
Speaker 1: They may well have been annex So, I mean, we
29:07
Speaker 1: know things didn't end well for Napoleon. He got exiled
29:10
Speaker 1: and then later he later things were so rough that
29:14
Speaker 1: he had to start acting in Bill and Ted bovies
29:17
Speaker 1: just to make ends meet. Oh man, oh man, I
29:22
Speaker 1: love you so much.
29:24
Speaker 2: Was he in both of them? He was just in
29:26
Speaker 2: the one.
29:27
Speaker 1: I think it was just in the one. I think
29:29
Speaker 1: he's a producer later.
29:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's probably accurate. What's the deal? Did
29:33
Speaker 2: he really have his hand in his uh lapel all
29:35
Speaker 2: the time or was that just like a myth?
29:38
Speaker 1: There are a couple of paintings. He also wasn't that short?
29:41
Speaker 3: Now, he was actually taller than Stalin was. Stalin was
29:43
Speaker 3: like five five five six, And.
29:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody accuse of Stalin of being a small person.
29:48
Speaker 2: What's the deal?
29:49
Speaker 3: Stalin purposely kept very short people around him, and they
29:52
Speaker 3: would have like photos of him doctored and stuff.
29:55
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. He was always erasing people from
29:57
Speaker 2: photos and stuff too.
29:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like Stalin, I think was like five five five six.
30:01
Speaker 3: Napoleon is like widely believed to be five eight. Do
30:03
Speaker 3: you know who is also really short? We just talked
30:05
Speaker 3: about James Madison five to.
30:07
Speaker 1: Four, famously one of the I think the shortest.
30:10
Speaker 3: President of the shortest president of a couple of the
30:11
Speaker 3: guys like Van Buren and Harris Benjamin Harrison, who were
30:15
Speaker 3: like five to six. We were, you know, kind of
30:17
Speaker 3: on the shortest stipe, but five to four.
30:19
Speaker 2: Well, it just goes to show that if you if
30:20
Speaker 2: you're not the supreme victor, you know, I mean, obviously
30:23
Speaker 2: Napoleon did quite well for himself, but then I think
30:25
Speaker 2: he was exiled in the end. They're gonna name a
30:27
Speaker 2: complex after you that has nothing to do with your
30:29
Speaker 2: actual stature.
30:31
Speaker 1: Right right, And you know, we don't know how many
30:34
Speaker 1: people joked about Stalin's height because to your earlier point,
30:39
Speaker 1: he erased them from.
30:40
Speaker 2: History exactly, not just from photographs, from actual like reality.
30:43
Speaker 1: Tough time to be doing stand up in Russia.
30:46
Speaker 2: We're gonna get to some communist stuff in a minute too. Yeah,
30:48
Speaker 2: that's actually where the story takes a very interesting turn.
30:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's head to World War One. Sam Marino
30:56
Speaker 1: is neutral. They don't take part in the conflict. Really,
30:59
Speaker 1: they send twenty guys to help Italy on the Italian Front,
31:04
Speaker 1: and after the war, twenty guys. Yeah, they said, twenty
31:07
Speaker 1: people the best, their best guys. It's like they got
31:10
Speaker 1: in a room and they said, what, who's who's got
31:15
Speaker 1: some openings this weekend? And twenty guys raised their hands,
31:19
Speaker 1: you know, well show. Yeah, so this is the change
31:22
Speaker 1: that we were foreshadowing here. After World War One, San
31:27
Speaker 1: Marino has a big political shift. They get super into fascism.
31:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Sammarines. Interesting word there. Fascist party took over
31:38
Speaker 2: the government in the nineteen twenties, and in the nineteen thirties,
31:41
Speaker 2: things actually were going quite well. The local economy was thriving.
31:47
Speaker 2: They were building infrastructure, you know, and reinvesting in the community.
31:51
Speaker 1: There was a railway.
31:54
Speaker 2: They were trying to increase local tourism and seeming to succeed.
31:57
Speaker 1: You know.
31:57
Speaker 2: Remember let's let's still keep in mind that this place
31:59
Speaker 2: was pretty remote and hard to get to, much like Monica.
32:03
Speaker 2: Remember how it wasn't until they built the railways that
32:06
Speaker 2: Monico started being more of a going concern with the
32:09
Speaker 2: funneling and tourists to their casino. Similar Yeah, oh, in
32:13
Speaker 2: comparison more fascists, though, very very very much fascist.
32:18
Speaker 1: And they so they build this railway and this helps
32:23
Speaker 1: with the local tourism industry. But you need we also
32:26
Speaker 1: need to understand. I put it this way in a
32:30
Speaker 1: series about Smedley Butler called Let's Start a Coup. Fascism
32:34
Speaker 1: at this time still had a new car smell. People
32:37
Speaker 1: were thinking, well, you know, let's try something else. Maybe
32:40
Speaker 1: a strong leader will get stuff done. Cut past the
32:43
Speaker 1: red tape. History would prove that's incredibly incorrect and dangerous.
32:49
Speaker 1: They did something interesting, right, This is where they realized
32:53
Speaker 1: tourism can be a viable business. But they, like a
32:56
Speaker 1: lot of other people, don't know. World War Two is
32:59
Speaker 1: on the way. They stay neutral again in World War
33:01
Speaker 1: Two until nineteen forty four. The British Royal Air Force
33:06
Speaker 1: screws up and they accidentally bombed the country. Oopsie, I
33:11
Speaker 1: mean it's a small place in the middle, you know,
33:13
Speaker 1: it's in Italy. It's like around a mountain in.
33:16
Speaker 2: It It's it's an honest no one is perfect.
33:20
Speaker 3: They drop two bombs, you nail the whole thing.
33:23
Speaker 2: Right, Sure, that is the inconvenient part of it, right.
33:26
Speaker 1: And then the German military says, we're going to occupy this.
33:29
Speaker 1: We're going to use it as a rest and relaxation
33:32
Speaker 1: place for our troops, and we're going to set up
33:35
Speaker 1: hospitals there because it's neutral territory, which an army mind
33:38
Speaker 1: means we can take over it.
33:40
Speaker 2: I love the idea of like a combination R and
33:43
Speaker 2: R and hospital situation. You know, it's like when there
33:46
Speaker 2: aren't like patients in the beds, you just kind of
33:48
Speaker 2: use them for lounging, you know, and just watching TV.
33:51
Speaker 3: And it's all inside the cave.
33:53
Speaker 1: It's all it's still all in the cave, wondering how
33:56
Speaker 1: could it not. I love it. I love the poetry
33:59
Speaker 1: and this imagery of that. So Benito Mussolini, famously one
34:05
Speaker 1: of the only bad bends, does something surprising. He steps
34:09
Speaker 1: up for sam Marino, and he goes to his pals
34:11
Speaker 1: in the German government and he says, look, I know
34:15
Speaker 1: these guys, they're good guys. Just let them stay neutral. Okay,
34:21
Speaker 1: do it for me, do it for Benny.
34:22
Speaker 2: They're blessed, aren't they. I mean, seriously, you got the pope,
34:27
Speaker 2: a notorious pill who takes you know, I mean especially historically,
34:31
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the modern popes seem to have
34:34
Speaker 2: softened a little bit. But in those days, the head
34:36
Speaker 2: of the Holy Roman Empire, you know, for him to
34:38
Speaker 2: give you a pass as a Christian unheard of. Now
34:41
Speaker 2: you've got this Mussolini fellow going to the Germans saying, hey,
34:45
Speaker 2: leave these guys alone, they're good boys, let them do
34:48
Speaker 2: their thing, let them remain neutral. I just don't understand
34:51
Speaker 2: it. It seems like they just got some really good luck.
34:53
Speaker 3: Well, I mean out, isn't the land not really that valuable?
34:58
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, but still based on I guess that's
35:02
Speaker 2: a good point. I guess that's a good point. Money
35:05
Speaker 2: is the most important aspect of this, but so is ideology,
35:08
Speaker 2: you know. I mean like it's just sort of symbolically speaking.
35:11
Speaker 2: I just am not used to hearing about these iron
35:15
Speaker 2: fisted leaders just giving a place a pass and just
35:18
Speaker 2: you know, saying, you know what, just just going going
35:21
Speaker 2: your merry way, do your thing.
35:22
Speaker 3: And there's been a lot of battles fought for much
35:24
Speaker 3: more worthless land than this. I mean, I'm not saying
35:28
Speaker 3: this is worthless land. I'm not trying to crap any memory.
35:30
Speaker 3: And we're trying to become official members of your.
35:32
Speaker 2: I do think it's interesting, is all. I think the
35:35
Speaker 2: fact that it keeps flying under the radar for so
35:38
Speaker 2: long actively, you know, when it's like no longer under
35:42
Speaker 2: the radar, somehow it continues to get this, you know.
35:46
Speaker 1: It's almost suspicious. It is a little bit at one boy.
35:49
Speaker 1: So they do. They do also have a reputation as
35:52
Speaker 1: being a safe harbor. They host a lot of refugees
35:56
Speaker 1: from different parts of Italy. They host a lot of
35:59
Speaker 1: people on the run from political problems. That time in
36:02
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, in September specifically, they were briefly occupied
36:07
Speaker 1: by German forces, but the Allies came in, defeated the
36:11
Speaker 1: Germans and what's known as the Battle of San Marino,
36:13
Speaker 1: and then they they just vibed ever since then, right,
36:20
Speaker 1: And the Germans weren't even I would say, they weren't
36:24
Speaker 1: proactively occupying. They were on the run through San Marino
36:29
Speaker 1: from the Allies, and the Allies chased them, and then
36:33
Speaker 1: after the Allies stamped out the Germans, they left. And
36:39
Speaker 1: so we've got another thing though, because sam Marino has
36:43
Speaker 1: been very particular in its political beliefs, and when fascism
36:48
Speaker 1: didn't work out, Noel I think they were the first
36:52
Speaker 1: country in the world that held democratic elections to become
36:57
Speaker 1: a communist country.
36:59
Speaker 2: Right, super interesting. So we spent a whole lot of
37:03
Speaker 2: time talking about how docile and non threatening San Marino
37:09
Speaker 2: is and that relatively that stays relatively true even in
37:12
Speaker 2: this case. But in nineteen fifty seven, there's something called
37:15
Speaker 2: the Roverta affair, which is a crisis between San Marino's parties,
37:22
Speaker 2: which are the Christian Democrats and the Communists. The Socialist
37:26
Speaker 2: Party actually withdraws from this government coalition after a revolt
37:32
Speaker 2: in Hungaria, the Hungarian Revolution of nineteen fifty six. And
37:37
Speaker 2: it's during this time that you know, when there is
37:40
Speaker 2: a communist regime in place, that the rest of Italy,
37:46
Speaker 2: which of course is not a communist does see San
37:51
Speaker 2: Marino as a threat all of a sudden, but not
37:53
Speaker 2: a threat militarily speaking, not a threat in terms of
37:57
Speaker 2: disrupting trade or whatever, a threat in terms of being
38:00
Speaker 2: able to spread communist propaganda, just by their actual proximity
38:05
Speaker 2: to the rest of the country. So they are actually
38:07
Speaker 2: refused or forbidden to broadcast. And this is something that
38:13
Speaker 2: stayed in place, i believe, until the nineteen eighties.
38:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, we can also see the perspective
38:19
Speaker 1: of people who are supporting a push for socialism or
38:22
Speaker 1: communism because for centuries this place was an oligarchy of
38:26
Speaker 1: very powerful families. Right, so the folks got fed up.
38:30
Speaker 1: But also that's kind of a hard hammer to bring
38:32
Speaker 1: down to say that you can't broadcast at all. It
38:36
Speaker 1: just showed. It shows us how terrified people were during
38:40
Speaker 1: the Cold War. It was the only communist country west
38:43
Speaker 1: of the Iron Curtains, so that's right. Yeah, so it's
38:45
Speaker 1: a big concern, but they survived. You can go to
38:48
Speaker 1: San Marino today. It is the only Italian city state
38:53
Speaker 1: that is around now a.
38:55
Speaker 2: Lot like Monaco and Andorra that we've discussed before. I
38:58
Speaker 2: think we haven't gotten the Lincoln. But it's interesting because
39:04
Speaker 2: it kind of they like have their own language, you know.
39:08
Speaker 2: I believe it is called Ramagnall or sorry Romanyall, which
39:14
Speaker 2: is an old dialect of that region, you know, the
39:19
Speaker 2: the Amelia Romagna region.
39:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. And because I did put in a snarky aside
39:27
Speaker 1: about how their government was dudes only for a while,
39:31
Speaker 1: we should say women gained the right to vote, they
39:34
Speaker 1: gained suffrage and the franchise in nineteen sixty. San Marino
39:38
Speaker 1: joined the Council of Europe in nineteen eighty eight, and
39:42
Speaker 1: since the end of World War Two they have been
39:45
Speaker 1: increasingly progressive. You can see that tourism has become a
39:50
Speaker 1: growing source of income for the country, as has wine, cheese,
39:55
Speaker 1: banking and finance cost cough, love.
39:59
Speaker 2: It, love love banking that they've got going on there.
40:03
Speaker 2: They also have some pretty incredible architecture and the downtown
40:08
Speaker 2: area of San Marino it displays some really incredible medieval
40:13
Speaker 2: historic architecture, so that actually was declared a UNESCO World
40:18
Speaker 2: Heritage Site.
40:20
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice, And they have a lot of cool festivals
40:23
Speaker 1: if you happen to be in town. Of course, spoiler,
40:26
Speaker 1: the Feast of San Marino is a big one for Marinus,
40:30
Speaker 1: the founder of the place. There is no official holiday
40:33
Speaker 1: for the crazy heckler who drove him out of Ramini
40:36
Speaker 1: that we know of. Maybe that's more underground. San Marino
40:40
Speaker 1: has a population of like thirty three thousand, five hundred
40:46
Speaker 1: something people, so it's still very small place.
40:49
Speaker 2: It's so funny it's considering its size. It definitely still
40:52
Speaker 2: does pretty significant tourism business.
40:54
Speaker 1: But as far as the whole of Europe, is concerned.
40:57
Speaker 1: I think it was.
40:57
Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen, it received the dubious title of least
41:02
Speaker 2: visited country in Europe.
41:05
Speaker 3: I just want to let you guys know I did
41:06
Speaker 3: some quicker math during the episode. Yeah, and you know,
41:08
Speaker 3: we're talking about how small Andorra is, and Monica is
41:11
Speaker 3: actually a good bit smaller than this country. But and
41:14
Speaker 3: Dora is like seven point six seven times bigger than
41:19
Speaker 3: this country. And Doras is a little speck and barely
41:21
Speaker 3: found on the map. It's just like, this thing is tiny.
41:24
Speaker 1: San Marino is a town. Uh is a country that
41:27
Speaker 1: is a town. It's an Italian city state all its own.
41:30
Speaker 1: We've got to give one shout out, though we're digging in.
41:33
Speaker 1: This is a true story, fellow ridiculous historians. Once upon
41:37
Speaker 1: a time, famous wrestler who also became US President, Abraham Lincoln,
41:42
Speaker 1: wrote a letter to San Marino and said, quote, although
41:47
Speaker 1: your dominion is small, nevertheless your state is one of
41:51
Speaker 1: the most honored throughout history. So he wrote them some
41:54
Speaker 1: fan mail, and they said, you know what, buddy, you're
41:57
Speaker 1: a citizen. That's why we've been hockey about trying to
42:01
Speaker 1: become citizens of sam Marino. Well, I mean that'd be
42:05
Speaker 1: kind of cool, right, a Sammarinese passport.
42:08
Speaker 3: I might have screwed us over in that one a
42:10
Speaker 3: couple times. Maybe I'll add myself out of this episode.
42:12
Speaker 1: No, no, no, And I think that's where we call
42:16
Speaker 1: it today. We hope you enjoy these journeys through micro nations, Noel, Max,
42:22
Speaker 1: I hope you guys join me in this my new
42:24
Speaker 1: weird thing. I'm done with hot air balloons now it's
42:27
Speaker 1: about trying to get citizenship in micronations.
42:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
42:30
Speaker 3: I support that much more as a co afraid of
42:34
Speaker 3: heights person on this podcast, I hot air balloon suck.
42:37
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, teach their own, you know what I mean?
42:39
Speaker 1: Teach their own and if we will, we will learn
42:43
Speaker 1: more about the hot air balloon industry in San Marino,
42:46
Speaker 1: perhaps in another episode, but for now. Big big thanks
42:49
Speaker 1: to super producer mister Max Williams. Big big thanks to
42:52
Speaker 1: research associate Jeff Bartletts, Noel, who else, Big thanks to.
42:57
Speaker 2: Alex Williams compose our themes.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna go to Napolion and that makes
43:02
Speaker 1: no sense in this context.
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Speaker 2: It's certainly nothing.
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Speaker 1: Chris rascionis here in spirit Eves Jeffcoates you, Ben Max.
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Speaker 2: We've got to be some kind of coalition or royal
43:15
Speaker 2: Council of Regents or legates or whatever.
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Speaker 1: We should give ourselves titles.
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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's do that next time, and we'll
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Speaker 2: see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
43:32
Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
43:35
Speaker 2: to your favorite shows