Latest / Talk Commerce / Transforming Sales with Spellbinding Strategies: A Chat with Irwin Hau
Transcript
- Brent Peterson (00:03.382) Welcome to this episode of Talk Commerce. Today I have Irwin Hau He is the founder of Chromatics. Irwin and a lot of other things, by the way, and he's a magician, and I'm super excited to talk about that. Irwin, why don't you go ahead, do an introduction for yourself, much better than I did. Tell us your day-to-day role, and maybe one of your passions in life. Irwin (00:23.779) Yeah, not for sure. So my name is Irwin. Irwin is in Steve Irwin. I'm not the crocodile hunter and stuff like that, but I'm definitely what we call the website whisperer. I run a business called Chromatics. It's been my flagship business for the last 14 years. Helping people make websites that make their phone ring is our simple way of putting it. And yeah, that's a nice basic start. Brent Peterson (00:47.658) Alright, and passions, you had talked a little bit about magic and we are on video right now, so some people are listening and some day we might have a video version of this, but tell us one of your passions in life. Irwin (00:51.395) Yes. Irwin (01:00.195) Yeah, no, for sure. So one of the biggest passions that I've had and I'm being 42 right now, or 23 years ago, I remember a good friend of mine said, hey, Irwin, have a look here, turn here. And I kind of looked around and he pulled this card out of nowhere. I mean, I can't do it right now, but he pulled a card out. I pulled a pen out just then, but he pulled this card out and it just mesmerized me. I just didn't know where that card came from. He kept on pulling cards out of thin air and then he got me hooked and so. my big love has been in illusions, card tricks, you know, sort of thing, and magic and stuff. And so, yeah, love it. Brent Peterson (01:38.159) So maybe the Las Vegas strip is in your future someday. You'll get your own, yeah. Ha ha ha. Irwin (01:41.635) I've definitely been there, but I don't know if I'm going back there for that reason. But let's see what happens and hopefully I can see Penn and Taylor when I'm down there as well. Brent Peterson (01:49.858) There we go, yeah, I'd love to go see Penn. I think they're at the Rio. Unfortunately, I get to Las Vegas for business, not for pleasure, but anyways. All right, so Irwin, you had agreed to at least listen to one of my jokes, and all you have to do is say, should this joke remain free on the internet, and this is a new one, you're gonna see it's fairly new, or do you think someday we can charge for it? So, and this one you can get charged up over, because it could be spacey, who knows? Irwin (01:53.848) Ow. Irwin (01:57.315) Yeah. Hahaha. Oh good. Brent Peterson (02:19.69) Here we go. Anyone who ever worked at Twitter is now either an ex-employee or an ex-employee. Irwin (02:30.312) So should this joke remain free or should we charge for it someday? Brent Peterson (02:34.614) Yeah, or should I get the checkmark? Irwin (02:36.407) Yeah, my X right there, so that's it. Brent Peterson (02:38.986) Yeah, all right, so that was just the plan words for those who don't get my jokes. Normally I do have to explain them. Anyways, X employee, because a lot of people got let go, or X, because they changed their name to X, and it is right now in August of 2023. So who knows what Twitter's gonna be called next month. Anyways, let's talk about something more interesting. I love to talk about sales, sales conversions. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you're doing. Irwin (02:57.411) Yeah, true, true. Brent Peterson (03:10.424) and tell us a little bit about conversion cow. Irwin (03:13.571) Yeah, for sure. Well, before we jump into conversion cowl, we talked about magic just then. And I made a really interesting observation back in the day. It was actually one magic trick that actually helped me to create a seven figure business. And what I realized is magic and marketing are no different. I remember magic was more about getting someone's attention and making someone take action for entertainment purposes. I know you call it action because, or sorry, the right direction, we'll call it. And I know you call it that because you call, we call it magic misdirection. It's actually the right direction for me. It's just not the right direction for you on where to look, which card to pick, and so forth. And so I took advantage of understanding human psychology in magic and human psychology in marketing, and I was able just to blend. the two together. And that's the thing with sales and stuff like that. It's not about, and yes you can be the sleazy salesman with the gift of the gab and those kind of things, but it's just dirty, it's not kind. Sales should actually be, and the way I explained it to one of my mentees, she said, I'm horrible at sales, Irwin. Absolutely horrible at it. I said, why? She goes, and in some ways she was saying, I can't be sleazy, you know, sort of thing. I said, that's not the point. Sales is about helping people. That's all it is. And if you have a heart to help, then you'll be amazing at what you do. And that's it, it's as simple as that. And so, yeah, I took the idea of magic and understanding techniques of knowing how to present things in a way that was nice and clear, to then demonstrating and giving a solution, sort of thing, just packaging up in that way. So that's really the sales side. And I guess when it comes to conversion cow, it's really interesting. I look at being a web agency and knowing how to make websites, I realized everyone seems to fail at their websites. And there's four areas, I'm gonna make it really simple. A website should really articulate four things. Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? Or prove what you just said was true? And let me get in touch with you. Irwin (05:38.679) Really simple, I don't think I've told you anything Brent that's been mind changing, I've blown your mind. It's pretty obvious, it's the same as if we met for the first time, so we bumped into each other, you know, at a networking meeting, at a bar, or just as friends. I would've said, hi, my name's Irwin, who are you? What do you do? Tell me more about what you do, like prove what you say is true. And then, hey, let's keep in touch, here's my business card, or you know, if you're going on a date, hey, can I? on the second date sort of thing right? Could I have your number? But people failed to do those four things. So Conversion Cow that you mentioned before is another company that helps to articulate these four things so clearly on a website. So it's like, and so Conversion Cow is a tool that you install on any website, built by anyone, that summarizes your best sales pitch and call to actions all in one spot and it features that message on every page of your website. And not only that, the real magic behind it is I can change that message on your website, depending on how you interact with the site. So if you go to a specific page, it will change that sales message. Because what I learned, Brent, is the right message at the right time to the right person equals a better conversion rate. Therefore, you get to milk your website for more leads and beef it up sort of thing, hence the word conversion cow. So yeah, that's it. Brent Peterson (07:03.138) That's awesome. So before we jump into conversion co, I wanna go back to sales, and I wanna pick on a certain industry because it seems like, you had mentioned sleazy salesperson, and I'm gonna pick on an industry. It's the car industry. And it seems like the salespeople sometimes are sleazy, but in my experience, a lot of salespeople just don't do the followup. Like they don't... Irwin (07:08.411) Mm-mm. Irwin (07:19.546) Mmm. Brent Peterson (07:31.346) There's all kinds of little pieces to being a good salesperson that you don't even have to be sleazy. I'm a firm believer in that if you want something or you believe in something, that you're going to educate somebody into wanting it, them wanting to buy it. And I think the best salespeople are the ones that say, you know, you don't have to buy this today, and you're going to love it, whatever, however they sell it, right? The other... Irwin (07:34.894) Mm-mm. Mmm. Brent Peterson (07:58.578) industry that I'm going to pick on is the timeshare industry, where they sit you down in a 90-minute meeting, and they say you're going to have to get this, and you can't use your phone to Google all the facts they're giving you, and blah, blah. But tell us a little bit about some of those aspects that make a salesperson sleazy or... Yeah, let's start with the sleazy part. What is it that sets somebody aside, out apart from your normal sort of salesperson? Irwin (08:02.308) Hmm Ah, yes. Irwin (08:19.843) Yeah. Irwin (08:27.807) Yeah. Well, let's use three words that you've mentioned and it's really the opposite. So let's talk about what sales is because the opposite of these words is what sleazy is. You said three words. Care, help, educate. So to me, if I'm doing proper sales, number one, I should really care about you more than me. Number two, my job is to help you. to understand, which kind of combines the help and the educate, to understand the benefits of what I do, and if it's not the right fit, I'm not the right fit then for you, Brent. And the fourth word I'm gonna put in is the word refer. I will then tell you what the right answer should be. Sleazy sales is the opposite to all that. I don't care about you, I care more about me. I'm not here to help you. I'm here to force information into you. And I don't care about your situation. I'm not here to educate you. I don't want you to get better. I just wanna push my information and agenda on you in a way that isn't even customized to you. And if I'm not the right fit, I will make you the right fit, even if it's not. Nor am I gonna give any other advice outside of myself. So it's a very like self-centric approach. as opposed to an other person approach to it. So when doing sales, I think you should be honest enough to say I'm actually really bad at this, I don't do this, and if this is what you're looking for, I can't help you with this. But if this is what you're looking for instead, or that in this case, if that is what you're looking for, which is what I do, then I'd love to help you. And if I cannot, can I at least give you some tips so. and this is a line I love using, and I learned it from one of my best friends. He said, I want to leave you better than when I first met you. And that to me sums up what True Sales is. I want to leave you better than when I first met you. I want you to be, and it's actually a funny principle that I, again, I teach a couple of my mentees this. I call it the 20 cent rule. We do deal with cents here, and we've got a 20 cent coin here in Australia. Irwin (10:52.799) And what I don't call this, because I just so happened that day to have a 20 cent coin in my hand. And I said, and we're talking about these win-win situations, yeah? And I said to this gentleman, I said to him, I want to leave you 20 cents better. I know you've given me nothing, so I want to make sure I give you 20 cents. If you're going to give me 20 bucks, I'm going to make sure I give you 20 bucks and 20 cents. I always want to leave you one better, and you should always be winning more than I do. And if you choose to want to help me, that's another story. But I want to make you first about myself. To me, if you do sales like that, not only will you have more fun, it actually ends up being a better world. So yeah, that's it. Brent Peterson (11:37.358) That's great. I want to go back to refer because I think the part where you're helping people, a lot of new businesses get trapped into wanting to do everything and are also afraid to turn away business, right? So referring business and I was in the agency space for a long time as well and I understood how important a partner network was. and how important it was to be able to refer somebody to somebody else. The opposite of that is, hey, I'd like us, I'd like to do everything for the customer, even if I'm not good at something. Right. So in that, in the second case where you, where you are just projecting something on somebody else because you want all the business, you're going to give them maybe something good, right? But you're also going to give them something substandard and the risk there is that substandard thing. could be five or 10% of your business, but it makes the client leave you. So talk a little bit about how referrals and partners and how really focusing on what you're good at helps you to be a better salesperson. Irwin (12:38.563) Yeah. Irwin (12:46.651) Hmm. Irwin (12:50.771) I used to be that guy, Brent, that I would say when we first started, I'll do everything for you. We want to be a full service agency. And it's not because it came from a bad place, it was actually a really good heart because we felt that we could actually help people and we want to be as helpful as possible. If you're in pain, I'm not going to go, well, I'm not going to do anything. I want to help. But then I realized two things and you kind of touched on it. Number one, I wasn't the best. at Katari BCD. I might have been fantastic at A, but I couldn't do BC that well. Number two, the client got something good but not great. And funny enough, just behind the scenes, I realised I didn't actually make money out of it. It turned from profitable to not as profitable. And if I kept on going, it would be like, wait a minute, I'm chewing up my own resources doing something I don't like or I'm not fantastic in. in giving a substandard product and I'm not making much money out of it. That makes no sense, you know, sort of thing. And so the penny dropped for us when we realized, you know what, as a personal thing, an ethical thing, a moral thing, and just a helpful thing that we realized, you know what, if we just focus on what we're stupidly good at, I think people would love that. And then I realized, you know what, B and C, those other things that I didn't do. Wait a minute, there's people who actually do it like... amazingly and they only do that. So if we band together, if we partnered together, wouldn't we be a force to be reckoned with? Like you've got one specialist in category A, you've now got a specialist in category B, specialist in category C, mate, we would actually give an amazing service. And so I get this comment all the time when I say this. Clients go, well I'm looking for a one-stop shop. Because, you know, I don't want to deal with three, four different people and stuff. I think what they're trying to say is they don't want to deal with two, three different people who don't know each other and don't know how to work together. That's when it ends up being finger pointing, going, oh, it's not me, it's person B. And B is like, no, it's not me, it's person C and C is not, it's person A. No, no, no. We'll sort out the mess together because our heart is to serve you. Irwin (15:17.723) So you tell us what your problem is, we'll band together, we'll work it out, thank you so much. And so you can see that we're help, care, educate, and having great partners to suggest. And let's be honest, sometimes when we refer, now I got off actually in fact, Brad, I got off a call yesterday. I wasn't able to refer a partner because he wasn't actually looking for a partner. He just needed a strategy. The truth is no one would open. their mouths for him, unless they paid. And so I said to him, well, I'm not gonna lie, it sounds like you're in your early stages of business. I remember what that feels like. And I couldn't afford, you know, 5,000, 10,000 dollar strategies. You know what, just between you and I on this phone call, do you mind if I just tell you my opinion of what I would do if I was you? Don't take it as gospel, it's just my little opinion, but. Do you mind if I just lay it down on you? I gave him the whole strategy. I just said, if I was you, I'd do A, B, C. I'd go to do this with A. I'll look up this website for B and I'll look up this resource for C and I'll use ChatGPT for D, you know, that sort of thing. And I'll get ChatGPT to write it out, blah. He was blown away because he was expecting more like a, sorry, too big for me, hang up on the phone, we're done. I felt fantastic after it. It didn't cost me too much. It was just a little bit of time and stuff like that. For him, it was the world. And he said, this is the most different phone call I've ever received. I was expecting someone just to say, no, sorry, or whatever. I said, just take it. He goes, what do I owe you? I go, you can leave me a review if you like, or you can send me a product, but you don't owe me anything. It's just, just take it, have some fun with it. And I think that's the attitude we should have. That's it. Brent Peterson (17:12.874) Yeah, that's good. I, you know, we're talking about sales and then we're talking about marketing and marketing is really just up higher in the funnel, right? And we talked about the care part and who the focus is on. And I've heard it said over and over that your website should be about your customer, not about you. So starting in your marketing funnel, starting at the top of the funnel, it should always be about the customer. And I... Irwin (17:21.969) Mmm. Brent Peterson (17:41.582) I've just made a new website and it was very difficult to make that transition mentally and then go back and reassess every single sentence you've written to make sure it's not about you, right? Talk a little bit about how you can almost force yourself to stop thinking about yourself because the solution is not you, the solution is the happy customer, right? Irwin (17:53.444) Yeah. Irwin (18:06.783) I Having done a lot of website whispering and I've analyzed 60,000 plus websites since 2009. I did a calculation on that as well Can I just take what you just mentioned and I'm just gonna like a poke again I'm gonna call it and raise it a little bit because everyone does say it's not about you. It's about the customer Yes, and no, but I'm gonna say it's actually two-thirds about the customer and one-third about you because it has to still have a little bit of you in there because people wanna know about you. It's just that they wanna know about the solution that they're gonna receive first. And then you talk about you because you still need to show credibility. The focus and the mindset when going through your website should really be what is the result and benefit that the customer's gonna receive through my service and product. That should actually be the only question you need to answer that ultimately helps the customer. So if you can articulate what is the result and the benefit that the customer's gonna get, then hey, you've done the right thing. And then you throw in what you do, because everyone's gonna go, thank you for the result and benefit, but what is it that, how can you achieve that? Well, it so happens that, well, at Chromatics, at ConvergeCal, we make websites, or we help you get more leads because we're a tool that you install, you still need to talk about yourself. But again. two-thirds them, one-third you. 20 cents more for them, but you still get a little something as well, right? And it's knowing how to combine those two and putting it in the right order. You don't want to put the cart before the horse. The horse is the customer. The cart is you, and you need both. Brent Peterson (19:47.918) That's great. Talk a little bit about the education portion of it. How much should people, especially in the marketing at the top of the funnel, rely on educating the client about whatever they're looking for before they even get to a salesperson? Irwin (20:02.619) Hmm, education's really important because we all start from a different base. We don't all have the same information. And let's be honest, some of the information is really poor. Some of it could be things that I heard at a barbecue and I'm going to now take that as gospel. Or I heard it at some webinar or some seminar. But you know what, let's be honest, the seminar is really selling. They were pretending to educate but they're really just pitching their pro- And so it's always good to give information that helps to distill things, create easy frameworks for people to understand. Say for example with marketing. Marketing is the one to many, you know, as you mentioned. If you really want to break it to its most simplest core, and I know this is a very generalized statement, you could actually break it down to three things. Inbound, outbound, referral partners. That's just all marketing in general, you know, sort of thing. And like you mentioned, there's top of the funnel. Middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel. Very simple. But a lot of people don't understand what that means. They just see it as, oh, let's just do that strategy because my competitor does it, or Bob told me at the barbecue, so let's just do that, or, oh, you seem to do that and it seems to work, let me apply it to mine. I think it's really important to give people frameworks to guide them and to know the why and the how to pull things off. And so, yeah, creating content's really important for websites. for content strategies, for your SEO, that sort of thing, but it's also a great way to help your customer to have a clear path. That's your job, is to be that guide, to guide people there. And if it so happens that your product is the solution, fantastic, if it's not, that's okay. As long as you've given them the roadmap, they'll know where to go. So yeah. Brent Peterson (21:48.054) You mentioned website whisperer. Tell us a little bit about how that came about and what is it that you do to whisper to websites? And are we talking too loud right now? Irwin (22:01.555) Yeah. Website whispering and the name came because a lot of the times I would actually look at a website and with seconds I could tell someone why it wasn't converting as well or what was wrong with it. And I ended up setting up a challenge myself. If I could not tell you what was wrong with your website in three minutes, I owe you a free lunch. And so that was the challenge and stuff like that. And so I guess I just got really good at looking at websites so quickly because I don't want to give away free lunches. Not that I'm not generous, it's just that I want to live up to that name. And once in a while maybe take someone out if they actually found something really good. I actually look forward to actually take someone out to lunch because therefore, because it's rare to find a website that is effective because there's always, it's kind of like Brent, if I said... I'm a perfect person. There's no such thing as a perfect person. There's no such thing as a normal person actually, I was saying, and someone else as well. There's always gonna be flaws, and I've got plenty of them. In the same way, a website is never perfect. It's an evolving beast that can always improve and change, and in many ways, and I'll give you a couple examples, could be in content, in the messaging, could be in the layout, it could be in the structuring, could be actually in the design aesthetics. It could be the style. It could be how it actually looks on different devices. There's so many different, it could actually be in the imagery, the videography and how it's shot and the messaging in that as well. It could also just be in the load speed, how quick the user experiences. It's all these little things. It could even be bad hosting that chugs the website and makes it really slow. So it's all these little things that we just wanna help people. Again, website whispering is really a disguise for the word helping. Can I just help you with your website and just tell you in less than three minutes why it's not great? It's as simple as that. So yeah. Brent Peterson (24:08.074) And to use the word why it's not great or what could be better. Irwin (24:11.651) I mean, there's always room for improvement is my nice way of saying it. But there's a line that I would have in my head. I actually wrote this in the magic world because it was part of someone's patter as they were doing magic tricks. And they were saying, we love making complex simple and simple beautiful. And I think that's really the heart behind better. It's can we take something that's really complex and make it simple and let's make that simple really beautiful. So. Brent Peterson (24:39.234) Yeah, I was reminded of the world's worst websites, and some people actually really try to make their website bad. And before NetScape had Blink, there was some specific HTML tags, and people would just overuse it, especially back in the 90s. Is there a fine line between the world's worst website that actually gets traffic and beautiful websites that convert. And then I would also say that, you know, when I was in the agency space, we did work for very big companies that had beautiful websites, but they converted poorly and they were super slow. So there's always this trade-off, right, between speed and beauty and functionality. Irwin (25:26.347) Yeah, see, if you rely on creativity, creativity is subjective. So Brent, I could think that the pen I'm holding right now is the most beautiful pen in the world. And you might go, it's the most basic rubbish, you know, kind of pen that I've ever seen. It's subjective, and if we're gonna rely on something and debate on something that is subjective, it's gonna be really hard to please everyone. But if we rely on human psychology, helping people, all you have to ask is, was it useful, is it helpful, is it, you know, that's all we have to rely on, stuff like that. So the focus has to be different when looking at these sites and stuff like that. So there's no such thing as a bad website. There's no morality when it comes to websites and stuff. The question is, is it effective in achieving its purpose? And so say, for example, if Google, Samsung, can afford to make beautiful, crazy websites. But you know what? The purpose was brand awareness, not let's make $4,000 million from this website and stuff. If that was their purpose and brand awareness and they've got the money for it, power to them because they don't need to care about SEO and ranking. They've already got the name, they've got the size. But for me and little old me with my little business who doesn't have a bigger name as they do, and I definitely don't have their budgets, I can't just rely on sexy photos of my products. I've got to try a little bit harder. And so I've got to go from that kind of pretty to something a bit more practical, a bit more basic. And so it's just knowing where you are, what your purpose is, and also what your budget is realistically, Brent. You know, I want a Lamborghini kind of website, but I don't have the money for that. So it's just knowing where and making, yeah, giving. the best based on what you have. Brent Peterson (27:25.622) Yeah, the ironic part of that is that the Lamborghini isn't even the fastest car in the world. You know, Tesla Model S with Plaid is much more affordable when you're talking about 0 to 100k per thousand, right? Irwin (27:30.731) No, it's not. Oh. Irwin (27:42.427) True, very true. So our purpose, focus on purpose, not creativity. Brent Peterson (27:48.794) So we have a few minutes left. If you had some practical advice for people now going into the end of this last couple of quarters of this year of 2023, what do you think people should focus on? Do you think people are over focusing on certain areas or tell us what your outlook is? Irwin (28:07.575) Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm going to still tailor this back to websites if you don't mind, and just helping businesses. Go back to basics. I think there's a, I was having a debate with a friend of mine, and we were both saying that we sometimes need to go back to the basics. I think we overcome, again, complex, simple, beautiful. I think we overcomplexify certain things. And so, my challenge for all the listeners today is look at your website. and just answer those first four questions. And does your website answer those first four questions that I pitched at the very beginning? Not because ConversionCow can do all that for you and makes it simple for you. I think everyone has the right to be able to update their existing website to go, who are, is your website clear enough in that particular? Who you are, what you do, have proof to showcase what you do is amazing, that social proof, and then, Is it easy for me to get in touch with you? Can I find your contact details? Is your phone number, email really prominent and easy to find? Those four things, if you can achieve that, I think it was worth listening to this podcast then. It's those key basics that I think will make a huge difference. And let's remember, your website is your best salesperson. It's not you, you're just the closer. The website does the pulling in. And as long as we know how to get traffic to the website, that's your SEO, your AdWords, your socials, all that kind of stuff, and your website converts, that's how you're gonna get more customers. So that's my, I think, my focus for this period. Brent Peterson (29:47.17) Yeah, one of my friends has always said this for a website, and I'll add the fifth element. He would always say who, what, why, and wow. So you give him something that is unique in your own brand, and of course, contact is. Hopefully everybody has a contact, right? That should be the most obvious, but I will say that it's often also the most overlooked. I can't tell you how many times I've had to dig in just to find an email address. Irwin (30:13.955) Hmm Brent Peterson (30:17.706) let alone a form, but an email address that you're trying to get ahold of them, or if you're lucky to get a phone number. Yeah. Irwin (30:25.955) Well, as I say, common sense isn't so common, and what is eye-deep is really obvious. Think about it actually in the real world. Imagine you went on a date with someone, you were able to wow them, you were able to share who you are, what you do, you tell them more about you, and at the end of the night you just walked off. You didn't ask for a second date, you forgot to leave your number. Like, you just did all that for what? And it's exactly the same as leaving a phone number or email off a website. You're doing exactly the same thing. You're introducing yourself. You're looking amazing. You're wowing them. You're capturing their attention. Bye. That's it. For what? And so it's really odd. And so you can't skip a step. You don't want to change the order either. If you remember, have you seen those websites when you first come to it? Sign up now. Give me your details. There you go. And I'm like, sorry, who are you? What do you do? I don't know. Like this is... It's like going on a date, hey marry me, what? I don't even know your name, you know, so we just met. So having the right order and fulfilling all the steps is exactly what's right. Brent Peterson (31:37.438) And I'll throw out, there's this viral website that's been going around. It's called MagnaButrim, M-A-G-D-A-B-U-T-R-Y-M. It's a fantastic experience on mobile and desktop. And it does wow you when you go on. I actually, I haven't tried to buy anything, but yeah, it's very cool. Irwin, as I close out the podcast, I give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug. Irwin (31:58.531) Right, check it out later. Brent Peterson (32:07.817) What would you like to plug today? Irwin (32:09.403) Now, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for everyone who's tuned in. My name's Irwin Hau, so feel free to connect with me personally, if you like, on LinkedIn. Just search Irwin, I-R-W-I-N, and Hau, H-A-U. There's not many Irwin Howes out there, so I don't think it'll be too hard. So Irwin Hau on LinkedIn. And if you wanna check out my two companies, Chromatics is my main web design conversion agency. So C-H-R-O-. matix.com.au. And the SaaS company that we also run is called Conversion Cow, which helps you to summarize your sales message and put those call reactions on your page. So that's Conversion, C-O-N-V-E-R-S-I-O-N, Cow, as in Moo Cow, or beef up your website. So it's C-O-W.com. So that's it. Brent Peterson (33:02.978) That's awesome. And I'll make sure I put all those links in the show notes. Irwin (33:06.607) Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Brent Peterson (33:08.414) Everyone, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for getting up so early to do this recording. Irwin (33:12.999) Absolute pleasure, babe. Thank you so much. Thanks, guys. Bye! Brent Peterson (33:14.83) Cheers, bye.