Latest / Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman / Spencer Hawkswell Spencer Hawkswell on Psilocybin, Mental Health and the Future of Psychedelic Medicine | Broken Brains Ep. 109

Transcript

Spencer Hawkswell Spencer Hawkswell on Psilocybin, Mental Health and the Future of Psychedelic Medicine | Broken Brains Ep. 109 · Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken Brains with your host, Bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mac Parkman Foundation, where we look at the issue of repetitive brain trauma in the form of repetitive impacts and contact sports, repetitive blast exposure for our veterans, and what these conditions are doing to the brains and mental health of our kids, athletes, and veterans.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this important?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is not trained to our medical practitioners, nurses, psychologists, psychologists.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so you are the front line of defense for this enormous and critical issue that faces and impacts hundreds of thousands of people in society today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Today on our show, we have Spencer Hoxwell.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: He's the CEO of Theracil, a Canadian nonprofit coalition advocating for compassionate access to psilocybin assisted therapy.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: He works alongside healthcare professionals, patients, policymakers to expand legal access, develop practitioner training, and advanced psychedelic assisted treatments for individuals facing end-of-life distress and other serious mental challenges.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be an amazing podcast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Spencer, welcome to the show and thank you for coming on board, Moss.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Great introduction.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, tell me all about how did you get involved with psilocybin?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody pops out of the wombs thinking I'm going to be a psilocybin practitioner when I grew older, man.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: What got you into this, sir?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I got into it, uh, funny enough, uh, through my mom, actually, who is a palliative care nurse, uh, and had seen so many patients at end of life suffering that when I told her about the first time I did mushrooms, uh, she didn't, you know, like I would expect, kind of scold me for it, but instead said, well, that's really interesting.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh, I told her about the Johns Hopkins study, the NYU studies, where patients at end of life were given a single dose of psilocybin, and 80% of them were seeing clinically significant decreases in their end-of-life distress, right?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: The depression, demoralization, anxiety, and hopelessness that comes with a diagnosis.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um, not out of the womb, but uh from my mother.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she was the one who kind of set me on this path.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, really at a time where you know psychedelics were not yet mainstream, gave me a bit of courage uh to pursue that.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was perfect timing because uh right around then, too, uh we had just had medical assistance and dying approved in Canada.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so this question, right, this obvious moral contradiction was present where our country was giving people the right to die with medical assisted suicide, but not the right to try psilocybin to try and ease those same depressive symptoms, the end of like distress, the anxiety, and suicidal ideations that that can come with you know an end of diagnosis.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of like the beginning.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's where it started.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's amazing, man.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how long ago was this?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was back in 2018, 19.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so yeah, man, a while now.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it was quite a while.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when you started out, what was your what was your initial thought on how you could approach this?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Did you start with policy or um you know, or did you just start, you know, just kind of going for it, you know, kind of asking for forgiveness rather than permission?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, uh that was certainly part of it, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the forgiveness instead of permission.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm a history nerd, so I I love thinking, I think it was Franklin who said, you know, that anybody or any uh law that you detest in your society, it's not only your right, but your obligation, right, to stand up against it.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and that's kind of what I thought is like this is a ridiculous one, right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: No one should stand for this.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I started with history, and the history in Canada was really clear.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was, you know, the patients uh had been given access to psilocy or sorry, cannabis.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these were AIDS patients and cancer patients.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the way they started was by asking the Minister of Health for compassionate access.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's where we thought we would start, asking the Minister of Health in Canada to do the right thing and use the power that they have as a minister uh to grant people exemptions from the law.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what did they did they immediately come back with a thumbs up or not?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not exactly.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that uh, you know, it took us about a hundred days of uh continually requesting from the minister uh an audience, right, a response to these exemptions.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll back it up a little bit.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: First, you have to write an exemption.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you get a doctor um to support a patient's request, and uh that doctor um and patient can then present that to the minister of health, our top elected healthcare professional or our top elected leader in in healthcare in the country.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that minister can either deny it or or ignore it, like happens so often.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time we had Minister Patty Haiju um of uh I believe it was Thunder Bay, and we were we were insistent that we get a response.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we had videos of other patients with terminal illness, you know, putting their story out there to the rest of Canada, saying, you know, here's my predicament.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have the right to die, I have a terminal illness.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the minister of health, our top-elected healthcare official, is not granting me compassion access.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um it wasn't easy, but after about a hundred days of that, the minister uh acted with courage and compassion and did the right thing and granted the very first exemptions ever in Canada for psilocybin.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that marked, you know, that marked history on I want to say August 4th of 2020.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so did you just put this out on social media or were you uh did you like were you sending these videos direct to his office?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or we had a lot of help from uh liberal MPs like Hetty Fry, Nathaniel Erskine Smith, um Marcus Pulowski, uh other doctors and and you know, uh liberals who were sympathetic to this.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, the best help we got was from the public on Facebook and Instagram.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we put this out there at the height of the psychedelic renaissance, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody um saw the immediate value of getting these approved.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, not only the end-of-life community and cancer community, but uh much to our benefit also, you know, the people who were uh looking at expanding their businesses and for therapists and doctors, their practice into psychedelics.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of sharing going on, which helped.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no doubt um end-of-life use for psychedelics or you know, psilocybin is you know, uh being one of them, uh can lend a lot of comfort to people.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh uh to me, it seems a lot better than you know, giving them, you know, which usually it's morphine.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, you know, the few times I've been involved with this, the people I know, you know, they've just had a little pump and you know, they they feel a little bit bad, they hit that pump and then they and they spend their last weeks just fading away and you know, unable to communicate or in a big fog and all this.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, you know, facing death is always, you know, it's traumatic, you know, for anybody, you know, and and you know, I've it it's it's something that I've thought about many times.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've lost my son, so I'm no longer afraid of dying, you know.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, anything that can help you cross that threshold as a transition, as many of us believe it to be, uh, has to be of enormous, enormous value.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you how did you expand access to psilocybin?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh is it uh I mean, is it something that is like you can you can buy it in bulk and hand it out, or you have to work with you know clinics?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do you provision the substance so that the so it's uh you know, so it's available to those that need it?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're talking, you got a big country up there.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people that, you know, that the the scale, the magnitude of the of distribution is is pretty significant.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: How'd you solve for that?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you know, this section 56 was where we started, and we were just submitting continual exemptions, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Every patient that we had come in, um we'd we'd write an exemption and send it to them.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Funny thing, though, is this exemption was just exempting a person from the laws.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't make the substance available.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the Canadian government um just stayed silent on where they'd get the psilocybin from.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that was no problem because as you may know or may not know, I don't know, uh psilocybin is openly sold and available in Canada and has been for about five years uh on streets.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: There are stores, um, mushroom dispensaries that operate with impunity um for the same reason uh that you know drug users across the country um are uh are are able to use uh drugs with impunity.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that you know the the law in Canada is not strictly enforced, right?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's the courts, uh, but then there's also the courts of you know public opinion.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And let's just say public opinion does not support um really the the charging or criminalization of anyone using really any substance in Canada for personal uses.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was a strong part of it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: We knew um that you know there would be no problem with the patients going and finding the substances because the you know it's pretty easy to find them.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, uh, I won't go too in depth, at least not right now on that, but I mean that actually signals a bigger problem within Canada, and that is that you know the courts and the prosecutors, they know that if they did try to shut down those shops, if they did try to criminalize or penalize any of the patients that were accessing this, that it would go to the Supreme Court and that they would lose their case, which is why it doesn't move forward.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we we live in a great state of uh uh stagnation, right, when it comes to any progress on on the side of psilocybin uh you know legal review or or changes in um in prohibition status.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's it we've stagnated and it's it's because of inaction on our government, actually.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So a big part of what we're trying to do is really get that government to move.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we were partly successful in that by having the government amend something called the special access program, which is again for terminally ill patients most of the time, so that if they need to access a special medicine that's maybe available, you know, in Finland, um, but not in Canada, um, they can make an application through there.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, our country hasn't really reviewed it, but for one person, they'll make an exemption to bring neck that medicine over.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they allowed that for psilocybin, and I think a lot of people thought that that was going to be a big success.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But what it's turned into is actually a situation where uh it's worse now.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: The the Minister of Health is no longer responsible, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we can't hold that Minister of Health responsible.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's nameless, faceless bureaucrats within our health authority, Health Canada, and they're denying patients, and and it's actually gotten worse.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so believe it or not, we're now at a point of people who are uh, you know, even after five years of progress terminally ill and have been approved for medical assistance in dying, um, they're being told no by nameless faceless bureaucrats within our within Health Canada, uh, against the advice of their doctor and against the wishes of these dying patients.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's the fight's not over yet.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: What prevents them from going down to the store and getting it?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's pretty readily available.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is that or does it need to be administered because I mean you just can't start chugging large quantities of that stuff unless you, you know, you kind of supervise a certain doses.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it this is where policy is really interesting, right?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would say that the policy in Canada where these mushroom stores are operating um with impunity allows for anybody to go down and take as much mushrooms as they want.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: With exception, the only group of people who can't access it are the terminally ill patients or who really struggle because they're the people who are at the end of life, often in hospitals or rigorously monitored and have different drug indications.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: They need the support of their doctor and their therapist to do this.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: They are the most vulnerable class.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for them, you can't be breaking laws.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's really difficult.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, as perverse as it is, you know, we live in a state where it's the people who need it most for whom there is the greatest case, you know, for access, who are most denied at this point, the terminally ill people and others who have tried everything and are still suffering because you know their treatments haven't worked.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it it's really unfortunate.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: But otherwise, you know, and this isn't the um, you know, don't take this as legal advice, but there's really nothing stopping anybody from going out and personally using psilocybin, um, which again is is not what we're advocating for.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: We want it to be done with doctors and therapists.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so nothing stopping people from accessing it underground by themselves.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that's being blocked is the ability to do it with licensed healthcare professionals.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they can still get the stuff, but it's not it's not gonna be administered and they're not gonna be counseled or guided, as is usually the case by a therapist.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when they take when they take psilocybin, how long um do the effects last?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh, you know, it's a you know, it's a you know, I've I've been through most psychedelic substances as part of my journey into self-help, self-repair, and um as a researcher for other veterans.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the um, you know, knowing that, you know, about six six hours, you know, most of the effects are you know pretty much uh dissipating.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: But there's there's still a period where a lot of the thinking that you do on the a lot of the realizations that you go through stay with you for several days as you work through them.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um how how is this impacting um the end-of-life population?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you say that, you mean the the after, not not necessarily just the journey, but the after and before.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, I mean, I guess two questions.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: During the journey, you know, the I can imagine that it'd be uh unbelievably uh helpful to experience what you go through on a psychedelic journey as you're dealing with, you know, the the my I mean it's that's one of the worst scenarios ever, right?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: We all get there, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: We all are you know dust to dust.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but at the same time, I think afterwards too, there's there would appear to me, uh, you know, the uh the the no of us that there'd be some benefit post uh post-utilization of the therapy itself.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: The therapy's broken down into three primary parts the preparation, which is before the substance or the experience.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's important, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know what you're getting into and and how the medicine works and why.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's the journey itself, which as you correctly stated, is sometimes around six hours.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then there's, you know, after that, the integration.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we normally think of these things as like blocks, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like binary, one, zero, one, right?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like on, off, on, off.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true, right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: The it's a journey, it's all a process.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And while you're on you know the mushrooms and while you're experiencing it, you are changing, you know, your life story, who you are, what's happened to you, how you are going to move forward.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is changing.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't like to think of it as the way we look at psychiatry, like there's chemical imbalances and are the effects lasting or staying.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's it could it could really not it doesn't not matter, but it doesn't matter as much that we understand you know exactly how that it works, as much as we understand that what in what in us is changing.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so afterwards, after you've had your experience, and um, I don't feel like I don't have to go into that, you've probably uh you know heard it enough times and people have heard it enough of how ineffable it can be and and and whatnot, but it it's afterwards that you need to do what's called integration and you integrate the learnings you've had from your journey uh into how you're gonna continue to go on and live your life.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why these these treatments are so effective and sustained.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they have long-term uh you know results, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like most medications that's changing the chemical balance of your brain.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's changing who you are, it's changing your story.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that can survive and last.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: It can survive future trauma, future um, you know, posterity and difficulties that you might have.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's the thing that can make you resilient um and and and change who you are.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's the most important part, the after part, as you integrate your experience into your life.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I think that's where I want to start digging into mental illness and how this helps, because it is the the integrative approach to the the the journey afterwards that um you know there's two aspects of psychedelics.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is the the the impact it has on the brain physiologically, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: The neuroplasticity, the increased communication between parts of the brain that have never communicated before, which results in these uh amazing realizations and growth, but it's the spiritual growth that um has really helped a lot of the people that I've seen, especially on the veteran side and professional athletes side, um, that you know have have gone there to, you know, for the brain healing properties of these substances, but also it's like the spiritual growth that you get out of it's like a perk or a benefit or something.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of where we deal with in mental health, people have come into substances to heal and from trauma as well.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the spiritual growth that you get out of these things, because you know, a lot of people, you know, you know, for every any of our listeners out there, I've said this many times, this is a lot of work.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Psychedelic work is some of the hardest work that you will do as a human being.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: There is no doubt.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: What you have to face and confront and deal with.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so have uh have you it sound it sounds like in your in the bio that I read, you have expanded out into the uh mental uh using psilocybin with the with uh mental with mentally ill uh populations as well.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and for the first part is you know, we're all dying, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some people know that it's gonna happen right sooner or later.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's one thing I can tell you, every single person that we know and listening to this is gonna die.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's gonna happen.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just some people know when that date might be, and others are are let you know left unknowing.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I would say that's part of the reason we expanded is why would we only treat you know these end-of-life patients?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that that decision was made a lot easier again by our government when they decided to expand medical assistance in dying to people for whom death was not foreseeable.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it begs this question, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: If if people in Canada, veterans, um, right, or or otherwise people with um mental illness, severe depression, anxiety are being told that they can end their life um, you know, with the assistance of our government and doctors, um, because of the you know, their inability to get past the illness, there's no reason they shouldn't be trying psilocybin first.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I would say it should be a prerequisite, at least an offer, a prerequisite.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to try it, but it should be offered.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, part of the whole reason for this podcast is that a large chunk of mental illness in this country here in America, and the same thing with Canada, you guys play a little bit of rugby, but you play a lot of hockey, all right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is caused by, you know, it's caused by contact sports.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And our veteran community suffers from a lot of repetitive blast exposure.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, people that are trying to make these decisions, if they're mentally ill, I mean, these decisions come a lot easier because a lot of these folks don't know that their mental illness can be, uh, I'm not going to say cured, but it can be greatly diminished through treating their brain, which, you know, because of the lack of knowledge and awareness of the correlation between repetitive brain trauma, damage to the brain, and mental illness.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't even you just made me have some horrific realization that, you know, there's people out there making these decisions whose mental illness could absolutely be treated, but their brain has never been treated.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we run across these people all the time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm dealing with a 14-year-old right now, seven years of of medication and lockups.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: He started playing lacrosse when he was four, and he just tried to just almost he tried to murder himself, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this and and and his mental illness could have been you know treated.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I'm not gonna I'm not advocating, you know, psychedelics for you know teenagers, uh, you know, but I will say that there are a lot of adults out there that have probably played a lot of contacts force that are making, they might be making the wrong decision.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, at some point you you've got to every person has the ability to assess risk.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is not something that only doctors have.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has it.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, doctors can help with that, but you know, every day that people are living with mental illness um and are being told by their government, you know, that you you know, the option for um end-of-life, you know, care or you know, medical assistance in dying, I'll just use this as an example, is available, but psilocybin isn't.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at some point you've got to take the risk yourself and decide like which way do you want to do you wanna move?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do is it worth just doing it underground?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's a human decision.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I just hope we can make it easier for them um and and acknowledge the risks because when uh when I say risk, that's the reason that our government is denying people access.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: They say that it's it the risks do not outweigh the potential benefits.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the risks they they list are headaches, high blood pressure, um, paranoia, confusion, and possible um uh elevated heart rate.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: These are not risks for people who are considering ending their life, these are not risks for people.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Who are palliative or or are who are on massive amounts of medication?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: These are, you know, these are not risks for them.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a big part of it, is trying to determine when those risks are okay.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And our our current laws do a very bad job of that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Our current institutions are doing a very bad job of that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and how can you have a law allowing somebody to end their life when the, you know, when you have an uneducated medical population on the issue of repetitive brain trauma and mental illness?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many adults right now are you know possibly considering this who have not even been assessed nor properly treated for what could be the physiological cause of their mental illness?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I that and and we know that this condition exists very much in America.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and we come across it all the time.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's kind of that's pretty concerning there that you know that that's you know that that that conditions allowed to exist.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you um are are you I mean, do you also look at the uh ability for psychedelics, especially acilocybin, to improve the neuroplasticity of the brain when it comes to mental illness?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing you know the changes that there are, you know, that not just the changes in the spiritual growth or the awakening, the integration part of the journey, but um also relief from migraines, you know, headaches, other you know, indications that other you know uh conditions or symptoms that these uh these folks are dealing with.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, on some positive notes, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: We've had people with triademinal neuralgia or cluster headaches accessing psilocybin and and seeing amazing results, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: These these headaches are so bad, uh they're nicknamed you know suicide headaches, and um people have been known to really claw at their own face.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the most painful diagnosis known uh for some.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no treatment except psilocybin.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, a lot of people are taking what what's called uh a busting cycle or a cluster buster, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Dose of psilocybin, sometimes between one to three grams, um, and they're taking them, you know, throughout their cycles, and it's it's their lifeline.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's amazing.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible that it's it's able to treat uh a condition that we really know very little about.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you were mentioning too, there are people who I've heard stories taking it for concussions, right?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Building new neural networks, healing from traumatic brain injuries.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I'd love to get into this with you uh at some point, but you know, that stuff for us to understand will require rigorous, rigorous research for us to understand it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there are there are two things here, right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and it they're almost at odds with each other sometimes, is you know, we think that we need to understand everything through clinical research before we can try it or accessing it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's not always true, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's just what the law is saying right now.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: But the law does not always consult your rights, rights as an American or rights as a Canadian.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, you know, if you look at how much research was done to prove that cannabis is safe and effective, or that, you know, uh medical assistance in dying is safe and effective, the answer is almost none.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Those aren't allowed or legalized because of research.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't eat tomatoes and apples because of great research, right?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh those things are rights.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have a right to those things.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um I really hope we can do more research to better understand, you know, how many indications and how this is working, right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is it uh increasing neuroplasticity?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what's its effect on pain and neurogenesis?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but until then, I mean, anecdotally, it seems to be working for some people, whether it's placebo or or just working, it's helping them, and that's that's a lot.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You you bring up a good point here because you know, we're we're dealing with this in America, you know, where you know a lot of the treatments that we know can heal the brain, to include psilocybin, are just not available because they're not well, we have this uh this organization called the FDA down here.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and basically between them and uh pharma, our our you know, you know, our doctors don't get reimbursed if they prescribe something that's not approved or whatever.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a point where research doesn't help.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people have been taking mushrooms for centuries, okay?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: They've been taking psychedelics for centuries, and they have not been dying in mass from these, you know, medicines, these God-built, you know, God-given medicines that we have on this planet.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a time when we have problems with mental health.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: We got problems with suicidal ideation.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: We might even have problems with in Canada, people that want to kill themselves just because they've had enough.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: They really don't have a reason, but I mean they just had enough.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe they have a mental illness that they don't even know they could cure, but it's driving them to the point of being mentally ill.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do we really need to conduct another 50 years of research on something?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I'll just give you case in point, get on my soapbox here in America.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: We have spent billions of dollars on TBIs and concussion research.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing has changed since the world starts since the war started for our military veterans, since the 1990s and early 2000s when CTE was coming around.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: We still box, we still allow kids to punch each other in the head and MMA.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is crazy what you know is going on.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yet we have, you know, all this um you know all these uh uh substances and treatments, you know, TMS, photobiomodulation, all this that can heal the brain, or that we have thousands and thousands of people said, this has helped me, this has saved me, this is you know, giving me hope, okay, which is what a lot of people that you're dealing with sometimes need more than anything.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: At least a little bit of hope, right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hope that they can do, you know, have the best departure from this earth possible instead of looking at it as this traumatic, you know, just gray period that I gotta get through it, and then on the other side I don't even know what's there.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't have any hope.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really think you bring up a good point is we don't have to research psychedelic uh psilocybin.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to know what might be happening neuro in terms of neuroplasticity and brain health, okay.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But there's been so many people on these that have successfully taken plant medicine for decades, hundreds of years, right, that are still here.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is all the testimony we need.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we need uh more research, but you know, they're they're gonna demand it because you know people gotta live in big homes and drive nice cars, I guess.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, uh I'd love to talk about this a little bit, and I want to be measured, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that if you want to claim that psilocybin treats um depression, you do need to research it, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're making a claim on a product and a label that people are gonna rely on.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think anyone should be making that claim yet.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and I don't think you are either.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we're saying is that people should have the right to try something when all the other treatments, including just like generally the medical system, has failed them.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that could be changed through law, right?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Psilocybin was not made illegal because of research.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was made illegal because of politics, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: The war on drugs.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, that was a bad time for drugs in the 60s.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was political unrest because of that, and and it was made illegal.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I don't ever advocate just to flip it one day and make it legal for everyone.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess what you and I are both saying is, you know, outside of promising that it's gonna do anything, um, there should be some medical access for those who have tried everything, who want, you know, to be able to try this with their doctor or with their therapist.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who'd also agree that if someone just wants to do it themselves, they probably shouldn't be thrown in jail for it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's a decision that's got to be made politically, and you know, that is a big part of what we're doing is trying to change the politicians' minds on that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other side, too, I will say that clinical research is also fantastic, especially in vulnerable populations, and just can be done better, and there are solutions to that too.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like psilocybin, there's a meta problem here, and that is who's gonna do the research if the drug is, you know, generic and unpatentable.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: We rely so much on you know big, big companies patenting or having some sort of um IP on their drug product, so they'll put up, you know, a hundred million dollars to bring it through clinical studies and get it approved.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: But how are we supposed to do that with MDMA and psilocybin?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Rick Doblin out of MAPS has done a phenomenal job.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Compass is doing a phenomenal job, um, and USona getting getting these drugs approved, but that they're struggling too.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard when it requires hundreds of millions of dollars.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but you got to rely on donations.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: That that's a that's a tough, tough thing to get a go for the line.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope our politicians see that that's the reason it's not getting approved.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because it's dangerous.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's very little evidence that it's dangerous.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the bar to prove safety and efficacy is so, so high and expensive.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that was one of my points, is you know, is one of the risks.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I would like to say is drugs are not drugs, are not drugs.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is we're not talking about heroin or crystal meth or, you know, or or or any of these substances that really have no positive value at all.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: The value of these psychedelics, and this is, you know, part of the research and study that needs to take place, is that there are positive outcomes from a physiological perspective that is helping a lot of people.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if they've had a TBI, car crash, been a victim of violent crime, or have a history of repetitive brain trauma.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are outside, there are upsides to these uh uh these uh the plant medicines from a brain health perspective that absolutely should be studied because you know these are effects that we're not gonna get when we prescribe SSRIs, SSNIs, benzos, and all these other medications that do nothing for brain health.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I do believe to that, to your point there on research, I am with you 100% that you know we do have to research these.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we have labeled all these drugs like ibogaine, okay?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Ibogain is a drug that when you take it, you will never not never take another drug again.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So why is it illegal, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what is the harm of taking going?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been through ibogaine.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have taken the journey, been through there, all right?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so what is the purpose of outlawing a drug that, if given as part of therapy, will erase your cravings for any other drug?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we're talking alcohol, you know, a little nine yards.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that we got to get a little rational about how we look at these medicines and drugs and how we label them.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to, you know, have the courage, to your point, to stand up and say, you know, I think there's a little bit of positive stuff here, a lot, actually, that needs to be researched a little bit more because this is saving lives.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not taking lives, okay?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, substance like heroin and and crack and you know, you know, and meth and all these, these take lives, all right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: They they they take lives.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: This, I mean, psilocybin, you know, you don't take psilocybin and have an increased risk of dying hardly at all.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, elevated blood pressure, elevated, you know, heart rate, whatever, okay.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, dying is not an option.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: With these other drugs, yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at our fentanyl problem here, right?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, I mean, just just some good points that you're bringing up.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think that, you know, to your point, we do we do need to you know do a little bit of research.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's your position?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, yes, I'm saying that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, uh just to mention that that's exactly what we're what we're trying to do now is a big transition is happening right now into clinical research.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and through a pretty interesting little change, is we're not gonna be relying on institutions or um you know companies to fund the research we're gonna be doing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've just been approved in Canada and uh have a May proceed from the FDA to run uh clinical research with psychedelics, uh psilocybin primarily, um to you know, for the purpose of any research, to determine their safety and efficacy, right, in in specific protocols and settings among target populations.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the people, the people who are taking part in the studies are going to be the ones funding it.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we won't be relying on on outside funds.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be people who are interested in partaking in the research who will fund it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that this will be a solution in the future to this problem of a lack of funding because we're going two paths.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: The one is we need to do the clinical research.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: As you're saying, we've got to figure that out so that one day we may be able to label something and have it in the hands of doctors and therapists and you know in hospitals with patients.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, too, you know, rescheduling it would be a bad idea, right?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Reducing the horrible sentences for people who are uh, I don't know, maybe thrown in jail or criminalized for personal use.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: That should be a priority too.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: The stigma, I think, you know, attached to you know some of these medicines, and you know, we can you know you know, no need to run down the the you know the the drug route here, but you know, for you know, for um you know, the ability to be able to take care of yourself, to your point, is a right.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of these substances out here that we have known for years are helping, you know, veterans and and people with mental illnesses.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So to your point, you know, hopefully that that research is very successful, and I would like to see you know that replicated down here in uh in the U.S.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we'd love to kind of understand how you're doing that.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: We got uh ketamine approved for uh research grant down here in the state of Florida uh because that's been a little bit, you know, it's got some FDA approvals, you know, already.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh psilocybin, uh we were told is a little bit too hard to do right now.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we're but we definitely would like to see what uh goes on up there in Canada, see if we can piggyback off that trial or or you know and and learn from it and have it replicated here in America.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Working on a veterans trial for the U.S.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: right now.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, dude.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, man.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, tell us about that.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: How's that?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is that something you can talk about?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're we're just looking at uh, you know, um we're looking at submitting it, so we don't know if it'll work or not, but it it follows the same principle, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like veterans groups for a long time have been using psilocybin in states where it's legal, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or heading out of the country uh in order to access it.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um those groups have funding.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: They have money.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: The veterans themselves are paying out of pocket.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what we're trying to do is, you know, set up a research study that's FDA approved that studies reality, the reality of what veterans are going through and and what they're what they're using.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's psilocybin, right?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's that may be in the future ayahuasca or MDMA.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're interested in studying and seeing uh you know uh whether or not it's safe and effective, which is the primary, well, you know, one of the primary goals of the FDA uh and of our institutions, right?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is is this thing safe and is it effective?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's where we're gonna start.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and veterans groups are are a really, really important one.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um in my experience, especially up here in Canada, so many of them feel so underserved and like they're not being supported by a government that they've you know put their life on the line for.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so being able to put studies together that help with their you know, drama, distress, anxiety, hopelessness seems like a reasonable place to start.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um Absolutely.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, these men and women have been through a lot.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh they they and when they are harmed or impacted, they're not getting the uh the relief they need.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: What about uh the sports side of things?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are you um have you been able to help any professional athletes?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know that we have uh a couple psilocybin clinics.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I had uh Danny uh Cerreo on the podcast uh last year, an NFL player runs a psilocybin uh treatment program out of Oregon.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um you are you are you treating any professional athletes at this time?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not at this time, not not our organization.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of any.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've we've had a ton of support from different hockey players, football players uh who have been following us and um really kind of like rooting for what we're doing because I think they see the value.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um however, we we've really been focused on on much more of the people who are kind of uh being approved for medical assistance and dying, right?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: The the most acute and kind of patient classes.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's kind of where we've been focused, but oh oh man, I would love to get into that sort of stuff, right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: As you had mentioned before, concussions, right?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: What a what a horrible thing that you know maybe there's a potential treatment in psilocybin for it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds logical, right?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: They it kind of makes sense.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we should be putting you know quite a bit of uh effort into researching that.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would hope that the the organizations too, the NFL, right, uh NBA or wherever else they're that uh you know, let's say is a stakeholder in this too, might be able to participate with us to run some of this research and and help help with access, right?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh these these athletes are putting their life on the line sometimes too, right?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or at least their well-being on the line.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I think that's that running this research could be good for them and the institution as a whole.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're not gonna get, I mean, the NBA and professional baseball, they don't have this problem.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's the contact sports, but those are the ones.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're trying to uh work with you know the NFL and all of them right now to get them to, you know, understand the risk a little bit more and and and uh re- and reduce total aggregate exposure by you know not allowing kids to play these sports until their brains are a little bit more developed, so we don't have the these problems.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, if you want any more information on that, we are the national voice in repetitive brain trauma.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd love to work with you.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: We can tie in to some of the psilocybin practitioners that we are aware of down here in the States and the folks that are happy.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you can um, you know, just have conversations with them and and and move out.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I mean you're doing an awful lot, Spencer.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as um we get ready to close out, what I like to do is allow our guests to go ahead and talk about talk about yourself, talk about your foundation, what you have going on.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot going on.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: How do people find you?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so um, you know, they know how to get a hold of you after this podcast if they have questions for you.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the best way to find us is therasil.ca.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's t-h-a, like theratherapy, and p-s I L.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: So therapeutic psyl side.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a difficult name, uh, but it's it's one that was kind of came from our roots, so we've kept it around.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So head to our website.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're not, like definitely follow us on Instagram, um, and Facebook and TikTok and Twitter.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, these days that's that's how you advocate, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: You get likes, you show that there's um, you know, impact and that people are seeing things.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so important to be followed and and and have people commenting and engaging on social media, uh like it or not.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what our government, you know, that's what they see.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's a world war, weird world we live in, but that's how things change.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's really important.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, too, we're a nonprofit, so we always benefit from donations.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we're a pretty special organization.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: We do we do training, and and training has been a huge part of what's made us successful, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Patients need support, but healthcare professionals even more need help these days.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, we put together a training program that trains people to be able to uh you know, not prescribe, but write medical notes, so doctors and prescribers through these special access programs.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also do training for the therapists so that they can, you know, learn and experience um psilocybin or MDMA for themselves.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's in Canada and places where it's legal, where it's not, we do other experientials either with ketamine, breath work, stuff like that.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: But giving the therapist the tools and the community of practice so that they can you know point to a training that they've done while supporting their patients.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really been one of the most important things.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the greatest things that would happen is if anyone's interested in training, we do training across the US.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we do both online and in person.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know, reach out, ask about our training, ask about how we might be able to help your patients.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that that's really what we want to continue to do.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, if you can, head to our website and donate.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's the only thing keeping us, you know, uh uh on top of the government.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: We we sue them quite a bit or do what's called Mendamus.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're always bringing them to court and we're always winning too.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's important.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we're gonna continue to do that.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that advocacy, the only way it operates is with donations.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of my plug, you know.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I hope all your listeners are gonna be hearing a lot more about Theracil uh in the next couple of years.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Spencer, we do too.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing amazing work out there for you know, pretty much a forgotten chunk of our population, man.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh and we want to see the lessons learned.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the hope that you're giving folks that are unfortunately at that stage of their life, you know, it it yeah, it just it it there's I mean, it's amazing.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was just flat out amazing, and I don't think you can put a value on that at all.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for what you're doing for these people.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we hope that you're you know, that as you sp expand into mental well-being and and uh and veterans as well, count us as your partners.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you need to know anything, we've got a big network down here in America.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: We got the only conference on repetitive brain trauma.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have uh we have a psychedelics panel there.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, very, very we're very heavily involved in promoting the use of these plant medicines when you know that the time and the person are right for them.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for what you do.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Folks, another great show, uh, an excellent podcast.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, if uh you reach out to us, please like us, send us around, share this, refer our podcast out there so they can, you know, you'll see guests like Spencer and the amazing things you're doing for folks that are suffering from repetitive brain trauma.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like us on Facebook, Instagram.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget the free book.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just wrote the revised copy.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be issuing this in Spanish as well as having an audio book out there for all you parents so you can become informed on these risks that are facing your kids.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Till the next episode.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for listening.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate you.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: May God bless you all.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, if you've got you only got one mellow, take care of that thing.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time on Broken Brains with your host, Bruce Park.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.