Latest / Skin Anarchy / Allison Collins, Senior Beauty Editor WWD

Transcript

Allison Collins, Senior Beauty Editor WWD · Skin Anarchy

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is Ekta, and today I have an amazing guest.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Alison Collins, who is the senior beauty editor for Women's Wear Daily.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so welcome to the show, Alison.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited you're here.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a pleasure to host you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to get started to um by talking about your journey in editorial and how you really got involved with it.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know um there are so many avenues.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So could you tell us all about your beauty journey?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, totally.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: So my journey is a little bit more of a traditional newspaper journalism path than um some of my beauty editor colleagues.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I started when I was like a teenager.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I walked into a local newspaper and like asked them if I could be their intern because I didn't know how to get an internship.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured like that would be the best way.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was like 18 or 19, and they were confused, but they said yes.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I started working at a local newspaper in Massachusetts.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was right during the big um financial collapse.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I was doing a lot of reporting on soaring gas prices and like very local news topics.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like a lot of parades.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and parades are really tough to cover.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh really?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I how so?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, this is totally deviating, but I'd love to know.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm like kind of a shy person, which I feel like is maybe not what you expect for a journalist, but I'm I'm a bit of an introvert.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And to cover a parade, you basically like walk around the crowd pre-COVID.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: You walk around the crowd and you just like go up to random people and ask them like why they came to the parade, what they're looking forward to at the parade.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, like shaking.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the job for an introvert.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was so scared.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of got used to it and like came out of my shell a little bit more because I was forced to.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was my first real journalism job.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did an internship when I was in college to learn how to do investigative reporting, which taught me how to like pour through documents and legal filings and things like that, which has turned out to be super, super useful.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I came to New York, I worked at a place called The Deal covering corporate and municipal bankruptcy cases, which I didn't know anything about when I started.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I had to make flashcards to learn the terminology because I just didn't understand what anyone was saying around me.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that worked, sort of.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, whatever it takes, right?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was that, and it was like getting on the phone with a lot of like grumpy bankruptcy lawyers being like, I don't understand what this term means.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, I don't either.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a lawyer.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty cool though.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's different.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I really liked it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was a really good learning experience.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Bankruptcy is kind of fascinating.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, if you're not going through it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as long as it's not like happening to you, then I think it's like it it just like interesting to learn about.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from there I went to this this magazine called Mergers and Acquisitions magazine.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I reported on a lot of like deal stuff, which happens in beauty all the time.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it was like private equity firms, loans.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: I had a column on loans at one point.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful I no longer write a column on loans.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm guessing it's tedious.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not an expert.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like learning all of this stuff on the job and just like doing my best.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, I don't know, it's a little intimidating because I was is that a common editorial, Allison?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like just getting like stories that you just really don't have a background in and like having to relearn.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think for a financial journalist specifically, like I I still have a lot of friends who have jobs like that.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really, really common that you learn from your coworkers.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I like I learned so much from the people I've worked with over the years.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: You learn from your sources who, once you're comfortable, you'll ask them about things that you don't really know.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you just like kind of learn as you go.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's really common and like newsy, newsy news.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had no idea.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, because you have so many articles that come out and so many, you know, like also like magazines are so multifaceted now.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like um I correct me if I'm wrong, like there's so much information about different areas.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I've always wondered that.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think over time you kind of get into an a little more of an area of expertise now.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing this for almost 15 years, so I feel like I know so much more now than I did when I first started.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wow, I have no idea.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Experience is uh queen, you know, in in in the world of jobs, I guess.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I hear you.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want to actually ask you about like your beauty journey too, though, um starting out, you know, because I think as women, we all have such a unique way that we came into it, you know what I mean?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would love to hear like how you, you know, growing up, like what that was like and how you got into beauty and all that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I always loved beauty.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: I my mom is not a big beauty person, but I did ballet when I was a little girl, and she would always like break out the 80s like blue eyeliner and the like like hot pink blush to put on me for my ballet recitals.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was like my favorite part.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was not good, I was not a gifted ballerina.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I always just really, really loved it.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when I I grew up for a few years in Japan, and oh wow, yeah, the the beauty culture over there is really fun, and so my like friends and I would go buy these like little pots of like bright blue eyeshadows and like crazy colors that my mom would be like, What on earth are you doing?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's so cool.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, I want to know because I know like um, you know, Asian beauty is always ahead of the game.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always feel like that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, did you feel that like growing up?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or like looking back now, I guess when you look back, like you feel like they were ahead of their times even back then.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like it's just a totally different it's totally different.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And here, um, and very I feel like it's more I don't know, more ingrained in a way, like and and for me as like a young girl who was there, it was much more fun, like the that you could experiment with when I was there versus when I would come back to the states, like it felt like it felt like you could like have more fun over there.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I you know, I think um in the states, I I don't know how it was for you, but growing up, like it was my mom was always like, Don't wear makeup, you know, in public, like you're too young for this.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it was so strict, yeah.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember I had an eyeshadow palette, I have no idea how I got it, but I was really little and I was so excited to play with it.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the reaction my mom was like, Oh gosh, you can play with it inside, but like not outside, yeah, yeah, going outside like this.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know, I've always loved it, and then as I've gotten older, I'm very, very into skincare.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like skin and hair.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Makeup has really fallen by the wayside for me during it, especially yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, especially now, right?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, now it's like I feel like I mean, no hate to any beauty brands out there because I I love makeup, but yeah, skincare is like huge now.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like you know, a lot of people are um, you know, kind of transitioning, like whereas I, you know, we would spend like what$80 on a palette, like I would rather go and buy like a sleeping mask or something now.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's happening a lot, especially like I feel like everyone is in this place now of trying to sneak in a moment of self-care whenever they can.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the beauty industry has really latched on to that idea to promote products as a means to help you take care of yourself during stressful times.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I want to actually talk more about that from your perspective because you know, as an editor, I'm sure it's very difficult to like really sift through what's good and what's not.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, especially somebody who personally enjoys skincare, what are some of the, you know, what are some of the the things that you go through when you get products and you know, when you're looking at brands that might reach out to you, um, just based on what you like, you know, as a consumer, like what are can you walk us through some of that?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I look for I look at the founders to see if I feel like there are there's an interesting founder story.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um from a reporting perspective, I feel like I feel like there's something in your core when you when you like meet a founder and you're like this person has it.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know what it is, but in the founder world, there's an it and you can tell when certain people like really have it, and that is a really fun, that's a really fun moment.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: From from the product side, I feel like I look for anything that's not going to disrupt my skin barrier.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have very pale, sensitive skin.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and anything, sometimes acids will disrupt it if they're not gentle enough.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um different types of exfoliators I have a hard time with, retinol, I have a hard time with.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I look for things that kind of lean gentle, like myself.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's rare these days, I feel like.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm right or wrong about that, but like all the products that I I see, it's like for acids, it's like bam, like put this on your face and it will cause redness for three months.
• 11:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's it's interesting you say that about about sensitive skin because I really think that it's a white space in the industry still, and it's not really, you know, getting filled.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to say that.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's I think that is a really interesting concept because I've we wrote a story maybe a I'm I've lost track of time in COVID semi-recently about products that just aim to promote skin health over anti-aging or anything more significant.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that feels like a movement that's going at the same time as like super clinical skincare, like doctor skincare, like P50 and things like that, that are a little more like serious, and like you'd get like the spa or the derm.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's the other side where it's like this is gentle, it will take care of your skin, you will not have like a flare-up of dermatitis or something, you'll be fine.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like temporary rosacea, you know, like yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think that's that's great.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people should be, you know, covering that more way.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I do have a question because from the editorial side, I've always been curious about, like, for example, you know, a brand that gets covered like a year ago, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do something that's like a huge change for the brand.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they got some feedback from the consumers or you know, editors such as yourself, they got feedback and they changed things.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to like covering that brand again, like if you chose to do I mean, does that happen in an editorial where you like revisit a brand and say, hey, look, this is a lot better now, you know, and all that, like, or does that just not not really happen?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: It it happens once in a while.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think for from our point of view, it's all about how compelling the new the new proposition is because uh we get pitched a lot of like rebrand stories, and I almost I almost never care.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're usually not interesting, they're usually about like we changed the packaging.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a small team, we can't we don't really have the bandwidth to cover some of those packaging stories.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think I feel like once in a while, if someone's like, we went in this direction and it was wrong because of XYZ reasons, and so now we're trying this way, there that that's a little more compelling to me because it's like, okay, like if you if you're willing to talk transparently about what you found that didn't work.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this could be an interesting story.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I always wondered that too, because it's like, you know, I I've interviewed some brands and I've I've spoken to some founders that are like, well, we weren't doing this, you know, for example, shade ranges, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember that was a huge thing back when, you know, Rihanna came out with Fenty and it was like, you know, huge for the beauty industry, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then like you had all these brands that are like getting scrutinized now because you don't have 50 shades, you don't have everything that fits in.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then now I'm looking at it and I'm like, a lot of those brands have taken that advice and they're really incorporating it.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I I wonder from like getting coverage, because you know, as entrepreneurs, I feel like editorial and entrepreneurship are like hand in hand, like it's like you know, they both need each other.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I always wonder like if a brand came out with, for example, more shades, would an editor still be inclined to be like, you know what, let me cover you again and you know, revisit um the situation?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on the brand, but broadly, yes.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I feel like if some of the like big fancy French brands that have like still have 12 shades were like, okay, we're going to 40, I would be like, wow, okay.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's big news.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank goodness.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if Mac, which already has like the most shades, did it, I don't know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I still might think it's news because they already have so many shades.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would be curious about which where they're what are you really filling here?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it depends on the brand, but I think I think in terms of that, that is a compelling story because it's important.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I actually wanna I wanna talk about um, you know, like entrepreneurship in the beauty industry and like what you like how you see it as an editor, you know, there's so many new skincare founders now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like every day there's like three more skincare lines, I feel like that come out.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in looking at it from an editor standpoint, do you like how do you feel about that?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's just saturation of the market or do you think it's um increasing like inclusivity and diversity?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I'm very torn on it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I guess both ways.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: There there are certainly too many skincare brands, but I if I look at the market today, I feel like there aren't there is room for more brands from different points of view.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't I don't think that like another another like one-off space oil launched by like some white lady in Connecticut is gonna be particularly compelling.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I think that there is room for founders of color specifically, or founders who have different experiences to create brands and products that reflect what they uniquely can bring into the market.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think there's more room for that still.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's interesting you said that because I was literally talking about this on one of my other shows, I think, and talking about how hard it is, or what it seems like rather, I should say it seems hard that for people of color that are entrepreneurs to get noticed in big publications.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, I've interviewed some brands and I'm like, well, why aren't you in Allure yet?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or why aren't you in, you know, like uh Glamour magazine yet?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have phenomenal products.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, the that part of me is like, well, what's the barrier?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what's the barrier between getting this brand noticed more versus what you just said, like a another white woman in Connecticut makes an oil and it's like all over the news, you know what I mean?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody's gotta buy this.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that's where I get confused, you know what I'm saying?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like as a consumer and even as somebody who's interested in it.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what what are your thoughts on that?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think the barriers are money and networks.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't work this way where I work, but historically, there is a tie-in in magazine advertising and what gets put in the magazine.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that could cause a problem.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I also think that some of the brands that even brands that I like, I think if they had come to me in a different way where maybe they didn't already know people I knew who introduced them to me or things like that, like maybe I I wouldn't have given it such a close look.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's changing where today I not that I get through all of my emails, but I try to at least scan and see like, does this seem like an interesting proposition versus like is somebody I already know texting me about this because they were hired to do PR?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but uh to be transparent, I feel like those are the two things is yeah, no, I'm glad that you're you're being transparent because I've always wondered, and you know, with magazines, I know that there's there's so many, you know, there's so many um factors that go into like how to approach getting published or or whatnot.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I you know, I ask that because there's so many people out there, I'm sure that you know they have a new brand or they have a vision.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, when you create a brand, you obviously you want to get into a magazine, you know, you want to get the word out and um how we can make it easier for them to relay their story and their message to senior editors, you know, like such as yourself at different publications.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's my biggest, that's my biggest reason for asking that question.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like I have a little bit of a different job than a traditional magazine beauty editor because we have one magazine now, but we I do like so much business coverage that it's just it's a little bit of a different role.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And my my genuine preference is to meet and know founders themselves.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if someone wants to reach out, you could literally email me and I'll take a look at it and start a conversation.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love that.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love that because that's that's a very easy way for everyone listening.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she's telling you straight up that if you want to reach out, reach out to the editor themselves, you know.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like that one-on-one interaction.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's important to know for because people don't know this, you know.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know like they're like, I have a brand, I have a great brand, and I need your help to get noticed.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, dude, I don't know what to tell you.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Have you reached out to the magazine?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, like I'm not the spokesperson for any magazine.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they want to come on the podcast.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I'm yeah, everyone's welcome.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it just, you know, it my my biggest thing is that, you know, I I want to actually talk more about your your expertise in editorial.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um you mentioned business.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So can you tell me a little bit about like what you know an a weekly story might look like for you or something that you'd be interested in covering?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um right now I'm working on an ingredient feature which I haven't been able to work on in a while, where we're seeing more mushroom-oriented ingredients, like different different types of mushrooms show up in supplements, which we cover from the wellness angle and beauty products.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a story I'm working on that I think is gonna come out Friday.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love mushrooms.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love mushrooms.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, seriously, that and I don't mean that from like, you know, for eating, but I mean like for research, I know there's a lot of benefits in mushrooms.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really cool that you're coming out with that story, actually.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been a really interesting one to report because I noticed it happening, but I I didn't know that much about it myself.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just been really interesting to get on the phone with people and talk to them about that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I did a s a quick story today because a brand that Estee Lauder owns is is closing down, unfortunately.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sucks.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was it was Linda Rodan's skincare brand that she sold to them a few months ago.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're gonna close in April, which is unfortunate.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love Estee Lauder.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know, I don't know about you, but every single thing that like they get behind, I seriously love.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I've appreciated their transparency this past year because I feel like they after George Floyd was killed, they were the first beauty company to create a comprehensive plan for what they were actually gonna do to diversify their workforce and put it out publicly, which I feel like I I don't know, I feel like public communication means like you have to do it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and people are still not doing it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy that you I didn't know that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, thank you for sharing that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: But like people are still not doing that, Alison.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's so many huge brands, and I'm like sitting here like looking at my watch, like, okay, when are you coming out with a plan?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, black people still exist, brown people still exist.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's the issue, you know?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like they a lot of people responded on social media, and I think some have have plans.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: We one of the things I like about this job is like it is my job to continually ask them what they're doing and what the numbers are and if they've made any progress and if they're making a plan.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I love that.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I like that you act, uh you you have to follow up with them.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I actually want to ask you now that we're talking about this, um, what your advice is for brands.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you think would make a good plan to increase that diversity and inclusivity?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you like if if a brand were to reach out to you about, like, you know, for example, like you mentioned Estee Lauder, if they reached out like, hey, look, we've come up with this new idea.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are some things that you think are important um to expand inclusivity?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think for big companies, it they have a lot of things to do.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: They need to change the way they find talent.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they need to go outside of the usual networks into different networks and look for talent in different places, which I think some have started to do.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I also think for big companies, it's important to make sure that you're retaining, training, promoting, and like keep your workforce and promote your workforce, you know?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like take care of your people and make sure that your culture is is one where everybody takes care of each other.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know that's really hard to do in a big company.
• 25:09
  unknown: Right.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I don't run a big company.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I know, I know, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a great area, like you know, but that's that's excellent advice.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, uh the whole idea of like, well, we don't know what to do to increase because I've heard that from people, like from and it's like, well, what do you mean you don't know what to do?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hire better people, like yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like some of the excuses that have like slid by in the past, like the pipeline excuse, or we don't know how it's not acceptable anymore.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: You literally just need to do better, and that is the end, like thinking it out.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, 100%.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said it right.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is the end, that is the period, uh, in in terms of you know inclusivity and diversity.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, right now I think it it's very, it's very interesting for me because I think brands always look for a unique way to do something, but it's like you don't need to reinvent the wheel for something so obvious.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's something like you know what I mean, like if it comes down to hiring more people of color in general, do that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to like, you know, like come out with this like new innovative way to like you know explain how you're diverse and then explain how you're in.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, you just it'll your numbers will speak for itself.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 26:29
  unknown: Right.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I I actually want to um I want to lighten things up a little bit and talk about what your favorite products are right now because I have to ask, you know, um being an editor, I I'm sure everything you use is great.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um can you share that with us in terms of skincare?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let me, I'm like looking around my office to see what's in here.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have used Tatcha products for a long, long, long time.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: That is a brand that has been like reliably gentle for my skin.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um another brand that I that they've been launching a lot of products now and I like them is Say, S-A-I-E.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've been like trying some of their new products.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like those are really fun.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got something in the mail that I haven't tried yet.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm not breaking any embargoes called um state of kind, and it's a sleep concentrate, and it it just like contains a lot of ingredients that I'm interested in.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like what it has blue tansy, road rose hip seed oil, CBD, and bacuchiol.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I never saying that right, even though I've been doing this a while.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't even know what Bacuchiol really is, but I mean I do, but you know, I hear you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Plant retinol, if that's um, so those are some of the ones that I'm excited about.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think if there's anything else.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: I need to try more things by um say say is that the sai?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just say.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I say okay.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't need to get over exotic about this.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like just say them.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, say, okay.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, cool.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I haven't tried their products much.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get more into them.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I am not a big makeup person, but I feel like I like makeup things that are a little bit more sheer and you don't feel them as much on your face.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is one of the brands where it's like a little bit lighter.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I love that too.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the same way.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like heavy makeup at all.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I know that whole Instagram fad was a thing for a while, but I I'd never, you know, gone that wagon.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, did you ever have to cover something about that?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like those makeup looks that were like going viral for like a year, I feel like.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like we you know what I mean?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like all the content creators were making like these ridiculous videos with like eight pounds of makeup on.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have to cover any eight pounds of makeup videos, but I I didn't know what an influencer was when I started this job.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was coming from a little bit of a different world.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I I went to an influencer party with Becca, another brand that's unfortunately closing down.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: No way, Becca's closing down, Becca's closing in September.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I love their products.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's it's sad.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: That is very sad, but yes, continue.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So many years ago, they had an influencer party, and I was just I had never seen anything like it where people it was maybe like 5 p.m., but everyone was in like gowns and so fancy and so much makeup and so much eyelashes, and I kept in like my work clothes, which like I'm not a particularly fancy person, was just like wow.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is like a red carpet event.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it was so so different, and so we've covered, you know, we cover the influencer community.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: One of my colleagues, Alexa, is like really, really good and on it.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that event was for Jaclyn Hill, who was launching a highlighter, and now she has her own brand.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, yeah, Jaclyn Hill.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have many thoughts about Jaclyn Hill.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if I I don't know if I do really, yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I honestly I've met her a couple times, she seems nice, but I feel like sometimes this happens with celebrities and with influencers.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes interactions are so fleeting and surface level that it can be hard to get like a real read.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel like with Jacqueline Hill, and I'm not trying to make this like a you know, like one of those like news story thingies, but like I feel like with her, I never gravitated towards her line because again, it was another white girl with a makeup line.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, the problem is I can't find my shade.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can't find my shade in 50 colors of lipstick.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was that's why, like, with influencers, like I've never, I'm kind of the same way with as you were approaching.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't understand why these people make so much money and how like people, you know, it's like, okay, somebody like, for example, Jackie Ina, like I want to correct my statement.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love Jackie because she's actually standing for like a huge demographic of people that can't find their color matches or they can't find the right things for them, or even skincare, she's like a huge advocate for, but then you have other ones, and I'm like, why are you like so, you know, why do people look to them so much for advice when in reality you should be going back to like, for example, magazines and you know, um, real content?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's real.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's on the one hand, I feel like there's a little bit of a move towards experts, so maybe not even magazines, but like makeup artists themselves a little bit more, or for skincare like aestheticians or dermatologists.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when it like I watch my like friend's niece, who's like my little focus group, and she loves influencers and she follows them and she watches all their YouTube videos, and she's always watching YouTube.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know if she's gonna gravitate toward a makeup artist.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel like we need to make them more mainstream.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what needs to happen.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, people need to get behind promoting good makeup artists, and you know, really like for example, I love Wayne Goss.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like if you're a fan, but like he's one of the influencers that I actually like because he's a real makeup artist, and I go onto his videos and I'm like, Oh, I don't know how to do contour.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let me ask Wayne.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so key here because like that's I feel like how you could really build up a following is if you can teach people stuff, that's really valuable.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how do you feel about all the editors that are like now turning into influencers?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: My thoughts are I don't know, I they need to make money, so like live your life.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um my my other thought honestly is like they probably most of them have a lot more knowledge that they're coming into their influencer sphere with from their days of editing.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that could be a good thing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's I think it's good.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a good thing.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's better than like XYZ from like Canada or like wherever, just being like, hey, you know, I'm on YouTube, follow me.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a bit more expertise behind it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's good.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, I'm gonna ask you um a serious question because I'm I'm really curious with your background in different types of editorial content.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you approach beauty, like do you have moments where you're just like, dude, I don't know, you know, like I don't know how to transition into this, or like what because you know, you you've covered so many different types of stories.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, with your background, I I I find it to be so intriguing how you, someone like you, would cover beauty.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it more like do you have your own like protocol that you go through, or it was kind of an accident.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I had been covering finance for a long time, but I was getting bored.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I started, I went to this, like, this is nerdy.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I went to this like Saturday journalism data workshop and made a friend who introduced me to someone who was like, Oh, I need freelancers, like please help.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started writing a little bit of beauty, like quick little internet pieces that way.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it wasn't the type of stuff I was ever very interested in.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was a lot of like 10 moisturizers for oily skin, which is fine.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to have the right moisturizer, but like is not bringing me a lot of personal joy to write that story.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I just saw this job on LinkedIn where they were looking for a business person who could also write about beauty, which is extremely niche.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I there are not a lot of us out there, there's a few people.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I just like clicked apply and was like, Well, I have a business background and I really like beauty and beauty products, so I could probably figure this out.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you had to make flashcards for the law firm, I'm sure you could, you know, yeah, your transition that I mean, yeah, it's interesting, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because like really editorial is just is journalism, and I, you know, that's why I I love talking to editors because journalism is really your passion.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: If I you know, correct me if I'm wrong.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I look at beauty, I'm like, you know, it's interesting how you transition into that like niche of journalism.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very niche.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but it's been there's a lot going on in in beauty.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of like acquisitions that happen that I write about.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of sometimes there's lawsuits, like there's a lot of serious business going on behind the scenes of what what for the most part seems like a really fun and like I don't know, like a fun yeah, like like bubbly like area of the market.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not not quite as serious, but actually is like a very big and serious business.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like a it's a multi-billion dollar industry.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I could imagine, you know, like all the business stuff that's going on.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I actually, you know, I want to ask you this, and it's very kind of cliche, I know, but I want you to walk us through like a day in your life kind of thing.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you like, you know, how do stories come to your desk?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're a senior editor, and I'm sure like, you know, it's a lot more picky now than you know, obviously when you're starting off.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what's it what's a day like for you?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll take you through today.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, perfect.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I had coffee.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I started working at like eight because I needed to finish my column, which runs in our print magazine, and that is shipping soonish.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I needed to finish that.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Then I uh what did I do after that?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, then I took two phone calls because I'm working remotely and our whole team is remote.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I was talking to two people on the beauty team who I work with closely about the mushroom story that's gonna come out soon and about the magazine issue and about event planning because we also do a lot of events, so I like help um help coordinate who should speak at them.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um then I went outside to see a friend who got her bangs, cut downstairs, and take an air break for 20 minutes.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Very important part of the day.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crucial part of the day.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I got I got a call back on this um news about Estee Lauder closing one of the skincare brands.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I started working on that story and writing that story, and then I went back and pulled quotes and made notes that of things that I want to put in the mushroom story.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was time to get on our Zoom.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, so it's a lot of writing, obviously, in the day.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: How do you deal with writer's walk, by the way?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've always wanted to ask an editor that.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it happens.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I find for me the best thing to do if I can't write is to just like admit that it's not going to happen and go do something else for a while.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like clear your head.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like go on a walk or listen to a podcast or like I don't know, do some yoga.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because sometimes you just get into a place where you're like, it's not even if I wrote it right now, it would be terrible.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no point.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like why even bother?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I get it.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: I totally get that.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, you know, I I think that you know, writing a story, first of all, I remember, you know, I just wrote stuff for college and stuff.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I can I can imagine how difficult it would be on days where you're just like, I don't know.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just not feeling it, you know.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you have a deadline coming up.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I wanna I wanna actually um thank you so much for coming onto the show because this is you know, this is actually what I love to do.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love having casual conversations about beauty and this was so fun.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was so fun to be here.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone out there uh listening.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you guys enjoyed this episode and um you know leave us some comments, leave us some feedback if you want to ask Allison any questions, leave it in the comments in our cover art, and I will pass them along to her if she has time.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you so much.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to rate us on iTunes or Spotify because we need all the ratings we can get.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Allison.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 40:48
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• 40:53
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• 41:52
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