Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Graeme Cowan

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What I've Learnt - Graeme Cowan · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Leadership has never been harder, expectations keep rising, support keeps shrinking, and burnout has quietly become the norm.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: But Graham Cowan knows the cost of pushing too far better than most.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: In 2000, the former senior executive at Johnson Johnson fell into what became a five-year episode of severe depression.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: At its lowest point, his psychiatrist described it as the worst case of depression I have ever treated.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cowan was barely able to function, work, relationships in everyday life became overwhelming.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: But slowly he rebuilt his health, resilience, and sense of purpose.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the experience changed how he thinks about performance forever.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Today he hosts one of the world's most listened-to workplace mental health podcasts and works with organizations globally to help leaders build teams that thrive under pressure.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled to welcome Graham Cowan to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Graham, welcome and looking forward to our chat about all things mental health.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Tib.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely to join you.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, RUOK is one of the biggest mental health platforms.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: How did you first come up with the idea and why do you think it's resonated so much?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we've I've discussed in the intro your background and your history, but maybe you could give us your own lens and framework on that.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I was a vice president for a group called Carney.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're a global management consulting company, and I co-led their executive search area.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: We had the uh first tech crash, which is back in 2000, and we were doing a lot of work in that sector, and suddenly our business is dried up.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd had episodes of depression before, but this was something different.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was fleeting a team, I wanted them not to be affected by what had happened, I wanted to be positive, but it basically just eventually wore me down, and it led to being out of work for five years.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I gradually came back, you know, through beginning to exercise, catching up with family and friends, you know, good medical care, professional care, but eventually writing my first book, which was called Back from the Brink.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in it I shared my stories, but also the stories of some well-known and everyday Australians who'd been through tough times as well and what worked for them.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when I launched that book at the Black Dog Institute, it basically we had a huge reaction because I had some Olympic gold medal swimmers and, you know, famous artist and poet, and ended up doing about 200 interviews over a three-month period following that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that exposure led to me meeting Gavin Larkin.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Gavin had lost his father to suicide, like about 15 years earlier, but it was still having quite profound effects.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: He was having to explain to his son why the grandfather wasn't around.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So Gavin came up with this idea of having a day, and the tagline was a conversation could change a life.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew straight away from my personal experience, and I knew I probably wouldn't have made it without my parents who, you know, believed in me, but I lost belief in myself.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, we caught up and he said, Oh, would you like to be an ambassador?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, I'm more of a matter, I'm all in, you know, I really want to as much as I can.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, literally we joined up around March 2009 and had our very first R U OK in October 2009.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I led the workplace element of RUOK.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And despite having no real money, no full-time employees, we're really happy with that first year.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, the first five years were still very much a struggle, you know, balancing money and expenses and that sort of thing.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the themes, yeah, but the themes, I think importantly, that you tapped had a universality and a resonance with people, which were really, which was really quite brave at the time when you first started with Are You OK?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a logical, to me, it's so logical.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why aren't we and what why weren't we asking are you okay if both men and women, not, you know, like in the corporate sector, yes, but even beyond that, it just seems so almost like obvious to some degree, because it is a universal experience.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's I mean, you'd be lucky to meet someone who'd never, anybody who hasn't been through a tough time would be quite surprising because if you're going to try and climb any ladder or any mountain, as very much this podcast is about.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the fact that everyone's trying to climb somewhere, but it doesn't always go as planned.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we learn from it, you know?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the interesting things I think was that, you know, as you say, that term or that that tagline of conversation could change a life.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's had that experience, whether being receiving that question or asking that question.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Most people have.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: But when we first started when he researched, and the two most common reasons why people didn't start an IUA code conversation was they didn't know how to start it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: They felt really awkward.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second thing was they were frightened the person might say, No, I'm not okay, and not know what to do.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we just formed some very, very simple guidelines about how to have that conversation.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was an acronym ALC.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: A ask the question, listen with empathy, B is encourage action, and C is to check in to see how people are going.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, over almost 18 years now that uh we've been going, but people are much more confident having that conversation.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a I like that acronym.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's interesting to me.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually having a conversation with someone recently and it was regarding their position.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they, you know, we talked a lot about the notion of shame and the notion that if you're not coping or you're you're struggling with something, often if it's financial or if it's things, that the way that our our culture has sort of it's like a secret service, you know.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody has their own, you know, it's like everyone's really deeply struggling with certain things.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this person really reframed their position and it helped them a lot with this, with their trajectory and the way that they managed what they had to deal with.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there's a lot in this story about when you say, Are you okay?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's about saying there's no judgment, there's no shame, there's just a sense that we just care and love and want to know that you're okay.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the beauty of I think what you've created is a safe space, which really is quite and still for many people challenging.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: We know that the suicide rates were still pretty high.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I certainly know people who've had family that have suicided and that have really reached a point that they can't manage, obviously.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you think since you started this, that there has been a change in the conversation?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there definitely has, and we've been tracking research all the way through.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely proof that people feel more confident now to have that conversation.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And 75% say they've had an Are U OK conversation in the last six months.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it is improving, and I think it's also normalizing as well.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, to some extent, COVID contributed to that a bit as well.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was a lot more mental health issues, but ironically, in the workplace now, the mental health issues are higher than during COVID.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you put that down to?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think that's about?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is that about, I mean, you'd think we would have learned during that period, all of the sort of high sort of bars that were set and are set, they really were transformed during that period.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone just sort of, it was just surreal.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: We lived through it all.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you know, it's hard to even describe to people, you know, to future generations.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very dystopian.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: But what in what sense do you think, and why do you think that we haven't learned those lessons and and that this still is an epidemic?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all hoped when the lockdowns finished that, you know, let's get out there, fine, no problem, we're back to normal.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there was very long-lasting impact from there.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And funnily enough, Yahweh did research that showed that in the first year of COVID, 2020, that people felt much more clear about their job expectations, for example.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was like 48%, you know, felt they had a clear idea of what they needed to do.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: But now that number has gone down to like 23%.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of uncertainty in the workplace.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think the whole AI revolution is magnifying that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know that Atlassian this week just took everybody on a very nice, luxurious retreat and then said, within 20 minutes, if you get an email, you've lost a job.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was the most bizarre example, not just of the AI transformation, but also of the way that management handled that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of criticism about the very damaging way, like take them all on this beautiful retreat and they think they're safe and enjoying the journey, and then they find out if you happen to get an email.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine being one of those employees?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It must have been devastating.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and also just as devastating for the ones that remained.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that there is real survivor guilt.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very uh very real side impact of that sort of thing.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I guess it's just a bit of a secret question.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I wonder how long I've got.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody would, it's like sort of standing on the plank, isn't it?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: And just going, well, I'm not sure which way I'm meant to go, back or forward.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, that must be, but you know, to your point, and and much of what, and I know you talk about this in your new book, the concept of of how companies manage the mental health issues that emerge from such an extreme example, such as that at Lassian, and it's happening everywhere.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Google everywhere, AI revolution impacting that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't sound like they've learned a lot of lessons, Corporate Australia or global corporate, in terms of how to manage their people.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think one of the really important things is to take people on a journal with you.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I worked with a leader called Gabe Banks, he was a senior guy at uh NAB, and at that point they're going through lots of change and there was lots of stress around it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so he basically I helped facilitate a session, and one of the outcomes of that session was a decision to have regular webinars every two weeks, QA's, basically.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he basically said that if I know the answer, I could tell you, I will.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't know the answer, I'll tell you.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if I know the answer but can't tell you, I'll tell you that as well.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it actually brought down the stress levels quite considerably, just that one action.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people are a bit nervous about it, but I think they also really appreciate that, you know, some leaders are having a really tough time with this as well.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if they can be frank and and open, that is a much better way to go than just say, well, we're all fine, you know, it's all okay.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, just being proactive and helping to build a sense of belonging, community is so important in a team.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Helping to have psychological safety, and that's where people can be their authentic authentic selves, can make suggestions, can challenge something they don't agree with.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a democracy, but people do feel involved.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And those simple actions are just so critical in this rapidly changing world we're now in.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, obviously, every business has a right to survive and therefore needs the attrition, which is a natural part of the risk of being employed anywhere, I suppose, to some degree.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's at the mercy of whatever the dynamic.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And right now, obviously, with the world the way it is, and so many nuances that we're all being impacted or potentially impacted by.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what were some of the lessons you learned on your journey about, I mean, five years without work is a long time, and you had to find a way to internally, not just financially and practically survive, but internally ensure that you focused on your value beyond, and I think particularly, and it's not only men, because women also are very much in this zone, but I think the notion that work defines us so much and is very important to have a sense of purpose, which doesn't always have to be work, it can actually be giving or philanthropy or whatever it is that you choose to do.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for you, what did you learn about your value beyond the workspace and place, which is just so dominating?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know most of the men in my life and the women, you know, are very defined by what they do.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess traditionally it has been men that were the breadwinner sort of thing, and they and that's of course changing, which is which is really good.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing that I found really helpful for ultimately emerging from this really dark time was just focusing in the next week about the things I could control.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And there's great evidence that shows that our mood is determined by three things.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, genetics, then events that happen, and then the actions we take each day.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the biggest contributor is the genetics, and that's 50%.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: The events contributes 10, but our intentional actions contributes 40%.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the things that I found were mood boosters, and I put them into three categories: vitality, which is our physical health, you know, move well, rest well, beat well, intimacy, which is our emotional connection, both with people at work and also at home.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And there is overwhelming evidence.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: The longest well-being study ever done is the Harvard Adult Development Study, and it shows that the best predictor of a long life, a happy life, a low stress life is having quality relationships around us, supportive, caring, fun relationships around us.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third element I call prosperity, and that's our contribution or career well-being.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, many of us get great uh reward from our work and feel really good about it, but it also doesn't have to be paid work.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: If, for example, we volunteer for a charity or a school or a religion, that's also making that sense of contribution.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, those three things vitality, intimacy, prosperity, make up the acronym VIP.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I tell people they have to act like a VIP each day, not like a wanker, but topping up each of those areas of well-being every day.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've learned overwhelmingly it is much easier to keep ourselves in the green zone on the nudomata versus trying to lift ourselves out of the red zone, which I was in for, you know, almost all for five years.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And was that red zone predominantly because of lack of work?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was that, or do you think that it was a cumulative effect of many years of trying to deliver and to contain the extraordinary pressure?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I mean I can see it in certain men everywhere.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And women, that sense, it's sort of ironic though.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Women, in a way, I feel, even though we have got other challenges of juggling family and motherhood and all of the things that go with trying to be everything to everyone, I mean, that's a different pressure in itself.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, we get to sort of have a little bit of a time out with our kids and to stop and to get off the treadmill, not everyone, but for a period of time, which is now obviously getting support, government support, etc.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think at the end of the day, I think a lot of the men have a red zone like you describe, and some just push through and others fall off the cliff.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for you, how much of that was determined by work?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was a contributing factor, and you know, it was that trigger of high stress that brought it on.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it was also other things as well.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been very work focused and didn't spend enough time on my physical health.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I now say or recommend it, self-care isn't selfish.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't look after ourselves, we can't look after those around us.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is the, you know, what I call crew care, which is the relationships around us.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if we do have those supportive relationships at work and at home, it's like our personal scaffolding.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if we have a setback, we can speak to people around us and get that challenging thoughts, challenging ideas, encouraging help seeking.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that can obviously be very, very helpful.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it was for me, it was in retrospect, I I call it a crisis of meaning.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't call it that at the time.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just called it miserable and didn't think I would I would ever get out of it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not sadly, that's not uncommon, but it sounds like it was probably your greatest evolution, and clearly it led to the R U O K program, which has been extremely successful and also resonated because of the simplicity of the message.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: You said 18 years ago it started.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is, it is.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you made a point earlier, Deb, which I think is really worth noting.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you said, you know, why wasn't it around before?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and where were we and because Gavin Larkin, the founder, he was the CEO of an advertising firm.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So very bright guy and very good with messaging.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But in that first year, for the first time, we tried to encourage all the mental health sector to get behind us.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But there were a couple of them that said, we haven't got any psychologists on board, you haven't got, you know, psychiatrists, we can't support this.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: But Gavin and us were able to create something really compelling that people who are inside their own world of mental health and mental ill health problems didn't recognize was needed.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, sometimes the greatest breakthroughs come from people who are completely outside the sector and just want to do something different.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that are you talking about that in terms of the campaign and its simplicity and it's very clear because the messaging's pretty simple and clear and maybe accessible and not too complex.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we you know, we we did build up structures to help people have better conversations.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: But right from the start, it was always and and still really is all about the conversation.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there are other people that do great stuff when there's really bad mental health, like, you know, lifeline suicide, callback, service, beyond blue.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this is almost like the informal care around a person.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you that in my situation, that had the biggest impact, having that informal care around you, not people that you have to pay to assist you.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was about to say, because often people, as you describe, are not in a financial position to pay$200 for an hour session or whatever it is for a specialist.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that is an important factor here.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're somebody who's struggling and it happens to be a financial struggle for argument's sake, they're probably nervous to jump on that particular trajectory for fear of not being able to find the service.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're saying is the informal was very pivotal.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very much so.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people around, but they didn't know what to say or what to do.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And gradually the Australian population has increased their ability and willingness to have those sometimes awkward conversations.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So walk me through somebody, for example, what do they do, let's say, if they are in a position where they feel they're on the brink or the cusp of a mental health crisis?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I refer to this as uh the red zone, red zone care.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And to pick someone who is in potential danger or having issues, it is usually changes that you observe.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be someone who's normally very social but withdraws from normal social activities.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It could be someone who is normally very punctual and reliable at work, but that changes.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or it could be someone going through difficult life circumstances like divorce or death of a loved one or something like that.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's being cognizant of those changes and then having that conversation.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's often best, you know, I talked about the ask acronym, uh sorry, the Alec acronym before, which starts with ask.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Often it's best if we we we actually have a break the ice conversation rather than just go straight into a question.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that could be, you know, what's up?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: What have you been up to?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ask about a hobby or family and get them talking.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then to make that bridge into the ask is to make an observation about the changes that you've observed.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, just to say, look, I I noticed that, you know, he used to come to Friday afternoon drinks all the time, but you haven't been for, I think, three months.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everything okay?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are you okay?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then the important thing then is to be comfortable with silence.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Don't talk and try to approach from a different angle.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just let it hang.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And often that then leads to someone describing what they've been experiencing.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Not all the time.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, men are notorious for saying, I'm fine, you know, all good, no worries.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: But the facts show that 75% of suicides are men.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so high, isn't it?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is so high.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Unbelievable.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's part of the culture of men being raised?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I have a son, obviously, and he's got a great he's got great strategies.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: He goes to nature and he's a real, like goes out to the country and has this fabulous way of just he he he's it's almost like that generation has more of an understanding than let's say your generation, where they have they're very clear.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Works full time, but then he knows, well, I'm in the van, I'm in nature, and I off I go.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's got, you know what I mean?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's also something historical and cultural that has been embedded in previous generations, which the next generation are going, wait, we're not sure if we want to live fully like that.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's interesting.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: 75% though, that's huge.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, in terms of when you do get that response, I'm fine, but you don't think they're they are.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's sort of three approaches you can take there.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: The first one is don't be afraid to revisit the conversation.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you're still seeing, you know, concerning symptoms or actions or behavior, you know, a week or two later, you know, just notice this is still happening, you're sure you're okay.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an actual great video on the A UOK YouTube page about Tom and Justin.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a real story from the railway industry, very blokey industry, you know, 85% men.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: But a story about Justin, and he was the one that, you know, lived with this illness.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But Tom just talked about revisiting it, maybe in a different way, different words, but revisiting it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Justin actually says on this video that, you know, I can say I'm fine for the first, second, and third time, but when you asked for the fifth time, I just couldn't pretend anymore.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he was in the office with Tom, and Tom called his GP to make an appointment.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So don't be afraid to revisit that conversation.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is to consider is there someone that has a closer relationship with this person, greater trust with this person, and to seek them out and just say, look, I'm worried about uh Jenny, she's not herself.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Would you mind just checking in and see what's happening?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that can sometimes lead to a good result.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third one is to disclose your own situation.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you've had your own struggles, you know, to talk about those since that restructure, I've been really wondering how I how I need to spend each day.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: It really freaks me out a bit.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, have you been experiencing that?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when we share our story, it increases the potential and and the confidence in someone to share their story.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's very much what this platform's about.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we've um I've had 350, 380 people on this podcast in the last four years since COVID that we started actually five years now.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And much of it is about sharing stories and the extraordinary community that we've built here is very much that theme of share your story because you realize you're not alone and there's a universality and a learning and a sense of wisdom and evolution.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're right though, often, and I've had a lot of men on the podcast too, who've just been so fascinating.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the fact that 75% of what you're seeing is men is very interesting to me because I think it's a cultural issue, and I think it's embedded in our society that men have to just cope and be stoic.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: The stoicism is just, I don't know where it's it's and it's across cultures.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't think it's you know unique to anyone.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can see it across the board, and from what is that what you're seeing and what you notice?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, some cultures is even greater stigma than we have in Australia.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, Japan, China, India all have a greater sense of stigma than we do about mental health issues.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I think that reluctance to talk comes, as you say, about, you know, toughen up, move on.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also men have been sort of socialized to be problem solvers.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we should be able to work it out ourselves, you know.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I repaired that engine, so I should be able to work out how to repair myself, sort of thing.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really interesting.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, I noticed that a lot of your framing is on, are you okay?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: That is the role of the person asking the other person, are you okay?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, what I'm also interested in is what about the person who feels they're struggling?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: What services or response or what do you suggest they do to connect and to, you know, from the other side and say, actually, I'm not okay?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is there, yeah, yeah.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to someone coming to them, what's the what are you seeing there and what do you recommend is effective?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess I'd ask your listeners, and I guess the men in particular, about what you're feeling, you know, what's happening.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it affecting your sleep?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it affecting your appetite?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is it affecting your work productivity?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a great clue that things are the way they should be.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you don't need to necessarily seek help straight away.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're feeling really down and really hopeless for two weeks in a row, you really owe it to yourself to take action.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that could be to talk with a good friend or a family member that we're particularly close to.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's also low-risk things to do.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you could call the Beyond Blue helpline, the men's line, lifeline, and have that conversation.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can also do an anonymous self-test.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So both Beyond Blue and Black Dog have an anonymous self-test where you can do it with no threat and it lets you know the level of distress you're experiencing.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, you know, it it is sticking that out.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is also very, very much about encouraging people to exercise.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, something you can do as a loved one or friend is to catch up with them, you know, once a week or whatever, and and go for a walk.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that often is much more successful when people are shoulder to shoulder rather than across a table or a desk talking to each other.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I agree.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that exercise, you know, is just paramount.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in in the Great Leaders Care, I talk about self-care, crew care, and red zone care.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for the red zone care, I have an acronym called I care.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is primarily focused on the workplace.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the I is how we identify people.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's the changes we talked about before.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: The C is for compassion, you know, asking that are you okay question with compassion, but listening with empathy.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because the more someone feels under the stood, the greater our capacity to influence them.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: The A is for access experts.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if they've got a good relationship with their GP, encourage them to see that GP or call the helpline or do the anonymous self-test.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: The R is for revitalizing work.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the science for recovery, which shows we are better off being connected with our workmates that sitting at home by ourselves staring at the wall.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then the E is for exercise.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, taking people through those questions to see if they if they are feeling supported, if they had shared it with a loved one, if they have seen our mental health professional, if they were walking, all those things can be helpful.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't try and make it overwhelming by recommending five things, but you it may just be one or two.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in most situations, that would be to tell someone you trust what's going on.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Start walking, build your walking up to at least 30 minutes a day.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does continue, seek a GP.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because the GP are the pathway to psychologists and psychiatrists as well.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's really helpful.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming that's the path that you took, which led you to your revolution of sorts, where you found a way and a pathway through and learned the skills.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming it started very similarly.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I remember I'd been in a hospital up in up in uh Tari on the north coast of New South Wales.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had, you know, tried to take my life and I was there for you know a month or two and then went home to my parents at Foster.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being feeling very sorry for myself, saying, Why me, why me?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And my mother sort of looked me in the eye with one of those mother stares, and she said, I believe you use this experience to help other people.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, I thought that was crazy talk.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I really couldn't imagine it happening, but it did sow a seed, and that led to me deciding to write my first book, Back from the Brink.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that was about in that process of writing a book, it's for other people, that's why you're doing it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when we can transition from me, and we are very self-focused when we're depressed or anxious, to we, that's a huge thing.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so whenever I got a bit, you know, frustrated, despondent writing that first book, I think, well, you know, this isn't just about me.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's other people out there that are struggling, and I need to be able to find and share the right stories to help them.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: But we are social beings.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, one of the biggest things that comes from this is the importance of social connection.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't really have strength that area before my breakdown, but I've deliberately, you know, sought about building those really strong relationships where you enjoy being with that person, you see them regularly, and you can be vulnerable with each other.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, so for example, every Thursday morning I meet with uh Richard Buller, he's the chief purpose officer of KPMG, not that that has anything to do with anything, but we just happen to meet and that's what he does.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we catch up virtually every Thursday, and sometimes it's in person, but other times it's virtually because we're you know physically in different states or whatever.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And taking the time to nurture those relationships, the quality of our relationships will determine the quality of our life.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, I'd like to thank you so much for a wonderful chat and an insightful conversation that I hope helps our listeners.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And great to see you surviving and thriving.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much, Devin.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate the chance to be with you and your listeners.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I just wish for them and yourself that the best in life and love and happiness is ahead of you.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Same to you.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Back at you.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Graham.