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Why This 73-Year-Old Won't Stop Strength Training After 40 (David Frost) · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:00
  Philip Pape: If you're over 40 and you've been dialing things back using lighter weights, fewer hard training days, because that's what everybody says you're supposed to do at your age, right?
• 0:08
  Philip Pape: Then this episode is for you.
• 0:10
  Philip Pape: My guest today is 73, and he is going the other direction.
• 0:14
  Philip Pape: He recently rode 95,000 meters in a single day.
• 0:19
  Philip Pape: He is an expert in load management and recovery for all of us older folks just trying to look and feel better.
• 0:26
  Philip Pape: On today's episode, you'll learn what changes in your capacity with age versus what doesn't, how to decide if you've recovered enough to go hard again, and the one thing you should always schedule in your calendar just as seriously as your workouts.
• 0:43
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weight, the show that puts a popular piece of fitness advice under the microscope, finds the hidden reason it doesn't work, and gives you the deceptively simple fix that does.
• 0:56
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're talking about that moment where you decide you might need to back off.
• 1:02
  Philip Pape: Maybe your shoulders start taking, maybe a session left you sore for a few days, or maybe you're just getting older and people are saying, hey, take it easy.
• 1:10
  Philip Pape: You know, this is just what happens when you age.
• 1:12
  Philip Pape: We shouldn't be lifting or working so hard at it.
• 1:15
  Philip Pape: So maybe you reduce your volume, maybe you work out less, go a little lighter, and it feels like the right thing to do for longevity.
• 1:22
  Philip Pape: Well, my guest today is David Frost, and he is 73, and he is not backing off any of it.
• 1:28
  Philip Pape: Uh, this past June, his team set a Concept 2 rower ultra tandem record for 100 kilometers, where David rode for over four hours or 59 kilometers of the almost eight-hour grueling.
• 1:42
  Philip Pape: Oh, it sounds like a grueling experience.
• 1:44
  Philip Pape: He is a Naval Academy grad, a retired Navy captain, adjunct professor, and he writes for a lot of different organizations, including NFPT, personal trainer, and the American College of Sports Medicine, on many topics such as load management and recovery for people training, especially as we age.
• 2:01
  Philip Pape: He also found out in his 70s that his coronary arteries looked a lot older than the rest of his body.
• 2:08
  Philip Pape: And that was a catalyst for why he thinks about this the way that he does.
• 2:12
  Philip Pape: So today we're gonna get into what really does change about movement and training in your body as you get older, over 40, 50, 60, what David himself can and can't do now that he maybe could do when he was 60, how he decides how he's recovered sufficiently to go hard again, and how you can do that.
• 2:30
  Philip Pape: And then where things like walking, easy movement fit into his week that still has heavy lifting in it.
• 2:36
  Philip Pape: David, welcome to Wits & Weights.
• 2:38
  David Frost: Golly, thanks so much.
• 2:40
  David Frost: I I have a limerick, Philip, if you want, but it for the worst part, but no, but we probably want to get into the weights, don't we?
• 2:46
  David Frost: But uh Yeah, yeah.
• 2:48
  Philip Pape: You know, they're both part of the package.
• 2:49
  Philip Pape: So that's part of it.
• 2:50
  David Frost: There was a guy age 73, you know, who liked hypertrophy and he doesn't like sarcopenia.
• 2:57
  David Frost: Anyway, that's the limerick, and but I'd love to get into this uh extraordinary topic.
• 3:01
  David Frost: So onward.
• 3:03
  Philip Pape: No, no, on sure.
• 3:04
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and a lot of my listeners are are really concerned about this.
• 3:07
  Philip Pape: They're they're they're over 40, 50 or older, and they've been told a lot of mixed messages in the industry, or maybe they've dealt with things like injuries and surgeries and medical concerns over the years.
• 3:18
  Philip Pape: And maybe they're told to back off, go later.
• 3:20
  Philip Pape: They've got friends who are like, what are you doing?
• 3:22
  Philip Pape: You're trying to get bulky and build muscles?
• 3:24
  Philip Pape: Like, what are you what are you doing?
• 3:25
  Philip Pape: Right.
• 3:25
  Philip Pape: And I've seen this change with the generations as well, too.
• 3:28
  Philip Pape: But you are, you know, you're seven in your 70s, you've done all this active stuff that you're still doing.
• 3:34
  Philip Pape: Make no excuses for it.
• 3:35
  Philip Pape: And you're also very Aerudite that I can tell, an intelligent guy that thinks about this stuff.
• 3:40
  Philip Pape: So are you a genetic freak of nature?
• 3:43
  Philip Pape: Or is there something to how you train and move that we can all learn from?
• 3:47
  David Frost: Yeah, I am not a freak of nature.
• 3:49
  David Frost: With a Tour de France that just completed or the World Cup, I did study the amazing capacity of some freaks in nature, like this Slovenian, mispronounced Pagakar's name, but Tadek.
• 4:01
  David Frost: Now, Todek's 25, he is a freak of nature.
• 4:04
  David Frost: He can sustain 330 watts for hour after hour on the bike.
• 4:10
  David Frost: Now he's pushing through air.
• 4:11
  David Frost: My sport is pushing a boat through water.
• 4:13
  David Frost: It is different, and that is extraordinary.
• 4:16
  David Frost: And one of the things at any age, but as we get older, Philip, one of the things I remind myself is that I don't have to chase yesterday.
• 4:24
  David Frost: I just want to, in my own psyche, I want to be better than most of my peers.
• 4:30
  David Frost: So I don't have to be better than Tadak Pagakar.
• 4:33
  David Frost: I'm sorry I mispronounced his name, or Mabapi, that wonderful striker for France.
• 4:38
  David Frost: I just want to be the best that I can be by doing as we learn, and the rules are changing.
• 4:44
  David Frost: I know that you and I could talk about that forever about physiology, cardiovascular health, and those things.
• 4:50
  David Frost: But recovery is certainly one of the things that I can give my practical observations about what works for me in the world of resistance training or RT, whether it's dynamic, endured, explosive, or peak, strength training.
• 5:04
  David Frost: What are we doing?
• 5:05
  David Frost: What are the weakest links?
• 5:07
  David Frost: We have to remember we're not chasing yesterday and we're not going to do the power lift that we did 20 years ago without getting hurt, if you can do it.
• 5:15
  David Frost: So injury avoidance is one of the felicities of age that folks my age tend to embrace and not use this as an excuse, but just acknowledge the art of the possible.
• 5:25
  David Frost: I certainly cannot row as hard or as fast as I did as a 22-year-old.
• 5:31
  David Frost: And yet we have a wonderful program called Masters Rowing, where you generally row against people your age.
• 5:37
  David Frost: So that's that's the level.
• 5:40
  David Frost: So as we get older, we don't have to apologize.
• 5:42
  David Frost: We just race against people our age.
• 5:44
  David Frost: We don't have to race against everybody.
• 5:46
  David Frost: So, or lift it, lift comparing yourself to everybody.
• 5:50
  David Frost: And I think that is critical.
• 5:52
  David Frost: But in this world as a resistance training, I know we're going to hopefully talk a lot about recovery, but one of the things I really want to talk about is intervention.
• 6:00
  David Frost: But if you look at sarcopenia, the bell curve of sarcopenia for the general population, it starts to tail off right about at age 40.
• 6:11
  Philip Pape: Let's define that for the listener.
• 6:12
  Philip Pape: Loss of muscle and function, there's a very specific definition, right?
• 6:16
  David Frost: So the rule of thumb is different for everybody, but the loss of flesh, literally, sarcopenia is a loss of flesh, at about 1% a year after the age of 30.
• 6:25
  David Frost: About every athlete is different.
• 6:27
  David Frost: And of course, how you change that trajectory, I guarantee that every one of us is going to have less muscle mass when we die than when we were in our 20s.
• 6:35
  David Frost: I guarantee it.
• 6:36
  David Frost: But what we want to do is change that trajectory of the loss of muscle mass, sarcopenia, loss of flesh.
• 6:44
  David Frost: So at age 40, a reality is our bodies are changing and we should adapt to that change and still embrace it and make the most of it, not chase yesterday or or lift yesterday.
• 6:56
  David Frost: Because if you're at a very high level, it's just a fact of life that it's going to tail off.
• 7:02
  David Frost: But how fast, but how we deal with it, the intervention is the key.
• 7:06
  David Frost: And part of that intervention certainly is effective recovery, to not get injured, to understand as much as we can about our hormones, how they support us instead of drag us down.
• 7:17
  David Frost: And of course, with technology, we have many, many measures that we could do with, you know, blood testing and those kinds of things.
• 7:25
  David Frost: But nothing like a self-scan to kind of get a feel, Phillip, for when you're ready to go heavy again.
• 7:31
  David Frost: You know, it however there is that caveat that your muscles may be ready, but your connective tissue may not be ready.
• 7:41
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:41
  Philip Pape: This is this is what I want to ask you about, actually, is is when we talk about recovery, it is implied that we're recovering from something.
• 7:50
  Philip Pape: So you have, if we split up the population into a few big groups, right?
• 7:55
  Philip Pape: We have the group who's never lifted, who's never really been active, who's been sedentary their whole life, probably the majority of the population, let's be honest.
• 8:02
  Philip Pape: And if they start lifting when they're 40 or 50 or 60, we need to understand what that looks like and what happens and what they're able to handle from a biological fitness perspective.
• 8:13
  Philip Pape: And we talk about stress, recovery, adaptation.
• 8:15
  Philip Pape: There's that population.
• 8:16
  Philip Pape: Then there's the population who maybe has always been lifting and active, and they have their own issues with longevity, maybe because they used to go super hard and now they don't as much.
• 8:24
  Philip Pape: And then you have kind of in the middle, the guys like me, I would say I'm 45.
• 8:27
  Philip Pape: I started when I was 40.
• 8:29
  Philip Pape: So I was still like reasonably young, but I hadn't really done much of it.
• 8:32
  Philip Pape: And now I'm into it, and so I'm kind of in that middle ground.
• 8:35
  Philip Pape: Can we use heuristics on those, you know, in that way and maybe examine the recovery?
• 8:41
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 8:41
  David Frost: I think it's a wonderful breakout, that triad.
• 8:44
  David Frost: It's often great to separate the universe into three groups.
• 8:47
  David Frost: And by the way, in the matter of resistance training, I argue, at least from the statistics of power lifting, male or female, you do about the same per body weight if you're fit.
• 8:58
  David Frost: So hats off to the ladies to not concede anything to the guys.
• 9:02
  David Frost: Their ability to power lift is at about the same magnitude and percentage versus body weight for the key power lifts, the deadlift squad and bench press.
• 9:13
  David Frost: Hats off to them.
• 9:14
  David Frost: You know, for sure.
• 9:15
  David Frost: That's why there's male and females on the cover of the book because I admire the Scythian women.
• 9:20
  David Frost: The Scythian women were the real life Amazons and they were tough ladies, you know, riding on horseback and beating up guys and stuff.
• 9:28
  David Frost: Women have always been strong and strong as a new skinny.
• 9:31
  David Frost: I diverged, but I did want to mention that here.
• 9:34
  Philip Pape: It is important because we we do often talk about the fact that their women's ability to build muscle is at the same rate as men.
• 9:41
  Philip Pape: And really, the only difference is biologically they're you know smaller in stature and have a little more body fat and started later, you know, with the the the test, you know, had less testosterone during puberty.
• 9:51
  Philip Pape: But other than that, the delta in terms of strength and size, like you said, is equivalent.
• 9:56
  Philip Pape: So yeah, go potential's there.
• 9:59
  David Frost: Oh, it's it's extraordinary in admiration.
• 10:01
  David Frost: And hey, if a lady can beat me in a marathon run, God bless her, that means she's better than I am.
• 10:06
  David Frost: You know, that's you know, I have no problem with that.
• 10:09
  David Frost: But for the matter of resistance training, back to our intervention, and and part of that is technology, but what we do in 40s, I mean, you got a lot going on, right?
• 10:19
  David Frost: Very busy life.
• 10:20
  David Frost: You may have dependence, you may have work responsibilities and so on.
• 10:25
  David Frost: You probably almost everyone that I know, including myself, in that decade, the fifth decade of life, compromise is one of the worst things to compromise, and that's sleep.
• 10:35
  David Frost: And we know when does the muscle recovery and growth happen?
• 10:40
  David Frost: Not when we're working out, it's when we're sleeping, right?
• 10:43
  David Frost: When and those phases of sleep are so critical.
• 10:47
  David Frost: So if there was one intervention that I would love to highlight from my experiences of these, you know, my eighth decade of circling, you know, the sun, it is never, never, never compromise sleep.
• 11:00
  David Frost: It won't help you in any way, shape, or form.
• 11:03
  David Frost: So the key word in my mind is intervention and intervening with a look at what can work for you within your lifestyle.
• 11:12
  David Frost: And a very busy professional that has to commute, that can't work from home, has time constraints.
• 11:19
  David Frost: And yet, one of the wonderful things about resistance training is how you can see results so much quicker than in stamina, to to have a market increase and ramp up in stamina to do the Tour de France or whatever takes years.
• 11:33
  David Frost: But you can ramp up in strength in a few months, even up to the age of 80, because then it's not tapping masks, it's just tapping, you know, the intervention of training your nerves and muscles how to do what they were designed to do.
• 11:47
  David Frost: And I don't want people to wait till they're 80s, but I don't want them to say it's too late either.
• 11:53
  David Frost: Hey, today is better than tomorrow.
• 11:55
  David Frost: Maybe not as good as yesterday, but today is the key.
• 11:58
  David Frost: Intervention starts with moving.
• 12:01
  David Frost: There's a quote by an esteemed uh medical doctor who's also very good at kinesiology, who shared moving heavy stuff is pretty darn good medicine.
• 12:10
  David Frost: And who doesn't like natural medicine?
• 12:12
  David Frost: Or conversely, who likes polypharmacy and popping a lot of pills to try to make up for what we should be able to do, like our forebearers did when they were chasing the antelope or you know, running from the saber-toothed tiger or whatever.
• 12:24
  David Frost: So, intervention, I think, is a key noun and how we intervene day by day in successful little habits to uh make a difference is so very critical.
• 12:36
  David Frost: But part of that intervention is saying, do I want to stay up and watch the San Diego Pod race maybe make the playoffs or go to bed?
• 12:45
  David Frost: Hopefully, most people will say, why don't they use technology, tape it, and record it.
• 12:50
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 12:50
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 12:50
  David Frost: So intervention is a key one.
• 12:52
  David Frost: And recovery is one of the best interventions that I argue busy professionals in any decade uh should try to refocus.
• 13:01
  Philip Pape: Okay.
• 13:02
  Philip Pape: So you mentioned a few really good themes there that are, I'll say more about the principles than the methods, right?
• 13:07
  Philip Pape: Never compromising sleep, working within your lifestyle, which, you know, is a huge part of even the when we look at the literature of success is adherence and sustainability of whatever you choose to do.
• 13:19
  Philip Pape: Given all of that, let's start with somebody who's never really been that active, because that's again the probably the majority, and maybe they're 60 or 65 listening to this today.
• 13:28
  Philip Pape: What should be top of their priority list for consideration here?
• 13:32
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 13:32
  David Frost: So let's call her decent deb.
• 13:34
  David Frost: I use decent deb, not to pick on any devs, but to highlight decent deb.
• 13:38
  David Frost: Then we can talk about good George and great.
• 13:40
  Philip Pape: I like avatars.
• 13:42
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 13:42
  David Frost: So decent deb, 60 years old, maybe post-menopausal and ready to say, I don't like my bingo arms or bat wings.
• 13:52
  David Frost: I want to look better, I want to feel better, my knees hurt, my hips hurt.
• 13:56
  David Frost: Is some of that related to muscle and body weight?
• 13:59
  David Frost: The answer is probably yes.
• 14:00
  David Frost: Unless somebody's an ectomorph, they can't put on a pound.
• 14:04
  David Frost: Postmenopausal woman generally put on weight and start to slow down.
• 14:08
  David Frost: So, how does a resistance training regimen help decent Deb and her cohort?
• 14:15
  David Frost: The answer is, I mean, we could start from the cardiovascular part, but let's just start about moving joints.
• 14:20
  David Frost: We know, and oh, by the way, she may also have some arthritis coming in, some autoimmune thing coming because that's life.
• 14:27
  David Frost: We're living longer than our forebears.
• 14:29
  David Frost: We're not living better because we don't move.
• 14:32
  David Frost: So, what could she do?
• 14:33
  David Frost: We don't want her to go to the gym and see what somebody half her age is doing, unless she wants to remember what she might have done 30 years ago.
• 14:42
  David Frost: We want her to find a place where she is comfortable, where she can start to move multiple joints in things that support her activities of daily life.
• 14:53
  David Frost: There are a number of not very exciting things to check.
• 14:55
  David Frost: Can I get up up from the floor without using my hands?
• 14:58
  David Frost: How many times can I do sit to rise?
• 15:01
  David Frost: What's the first thing a doctor will do with an older client?
• 15:04
  David Frost: Let's see how you get up and down from a chair in the doctor's office because you're using multiple joints and checking the balance and the stability as well.
• 15:13
  David Frost: So hopefully she on her own or using Dr.
• 15:16
  David Frost: Google or YouTube or talking to a buddy or finding a group can figure out how do I move my joints that in ways that support my activities of daily life.
• 15:27
  David Frost: If I'm a grandma, I want to be able to get on the floor, I want to be able to get the suitcase out of the coach section of the those kinds of things.
• 15:34
  David Frost: Which the benefits are, we all know the benefits the bursa, the connective tissue, and waking up those sarcomeres to do what they were designed to do.
• 15:48
  David Frost: And the answer is just start.
• 15:50
  David Frost: The simple tests are not simple, simple yet hard.
• 15:54
  David Frost: The simple tests are what the doctors use, like sit to rise, and that's a good place to start because you're using your glutes, your upper and lower legs, and a little bit of balance.
• 16:03
  David Frost: So I would say, how many just start working?
• 16:05
  David Frost: How many sit to rises can I do in a period of time?
• 16:09
  David Frost: That's number one.
• 16:10
  David Frost: Number two, if she's an aggressive decent debt, hey Dave, what are some functional tests for men and women to do?
• 16:17
  David Frost: One is grip strength.
• 16:19
  David Frost: There's a very, I think a very strong correlation between grip strength and longevity.
• 16:24
  David Frost: If Debbie's interested in correlation, she's going to work on grip strength, not only to open the peanut butter jar, but also because clinicians say that helps, that's a determinant for longevity.
• 16:35
  David Frost: So, what are ways to increase your grip strength?
• 16:37
  David Frost: Well, get a little grip strength device, you know, an analog device.
• 16:40
  David Frost: We don't always have to be digital, right?
• 16:42
  David Frost: And then I encourage men and women, unless they have severe shoulder problems, to get excited about dead hanging for grip strength, for shoulder mobility, for lengthening the spine and training the muscle between your ears to hang on, right?
• 16:57
  Philip Pape: That's a good one.
• 16:57
  Philip Pape: That's a good one.
• 16:58
  Philip Pape: I've had two shoulder surgeries and I can attest to that.
• 17:01
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 17:02
  David Frost: And hey, if it's just one shoulder, do a hang on one arm or modify on an angle.
• 17:08
  David Frost: But the idea of using gravity to make sure you don't shrink.
• 17:12
  David Frost: I mean, we're going to shrink, shrink as our discs shrink a little, but let's use our skeletal muscles to do what they're designed to do to support the skeleton.
• 17:22
  David Frost: And again, the mind is a huge part of the dead hang.
• 17:25
  David Frost: So grip strength, dead hang, and another one I encourage everyone to do, unless they can't walk, is to do a farmer's walk with heavy weights.
• 17:34
  David Frost: And it doesn't have to be ridiculous.
• 17:37
  David Frost: It just and it could be unbalanced, it could be, you know, racked up or whatever, but the ability to move stuff across distance is key for the next 30, 40, 50 years.
• 17:50
  David Frost: So that's where I'd ask decent deb to start.
• 17:53
  David Frost: And the third thing is a combo of a hang if your shoulders allow or modify it in the best way you can.
• 18:00
  David Frost: And then carrying heavy stuff.
• 18:02
  David Frost: We were designed to walk, jog, and sometimes run.
• 18:04
  David Frost: You know, Bruce Springs said, born to run.
• 18:07
  David Frost: No, I think we were born to walk and jog more than run.
• 18:11
  David Frost: But carrying heavy stuff as you walk is important too.
• 18:14
  Philip Pape: Two things on the grip strength, because I've heard conflicting opinions as well as evidence on this.
• 18:19
  Philip Pape: And that is that it is correlational and that the root cause of individuals who have higher grip strength tends to be that they're generally stronger, fitter, healthier, et cetera.
• 18:28
  Philip Pape: And like if you just work your grip to the exclusion of those other things, that's not really going to help you that much.
• 18:34
  Philip Pape: So I want to be careful about it.
• 18:36
  Philip Pape: And then there's also, I didn't hear you mention the deadlift, but maybe that's just because that's like the next level or two in Decent Dev's journey when it comes to gripships.
• 18:44
  David Frost: I would, hey, there's a reason why the deadlift is the royal deadweight lift.
• 18:48
  David Frost: It's always been there, whether it's a stone or the tire or the tree trunk or you know, those uh wonderful cases of the very young men pulling a car off somebody, you know, because they're very strong and because they bypass their safety circuits in a moment of life saving.
• 19:05
  David Frost: But the royal lift, I call it the you know, the kingly or the queenly lift, there's nothing like it.
• 19:11
  David Frost: In my sport, for probably 30 years, we honored the squat, probably the back squat.
• 19:18
  David Frost: And then, of course, people started to migrate to a front squat.
• 19:21
  David Frost: But for probably half of my life, we've talked about the squat as the preferred exercise for rowers.
• 19:27
  David Frost: And a deadlift doesn't mean she has to tackle heavy, heavy weights.
• 19:32
  David Frost: However, correlation, and I believe there's merit, that she, unless she has some kind of physical ailment, should be able one RM to do three-quarters of her body weight, one RM.
• 19:45
  David Frost: So she's 140 pounds, she should be able to do one RM 105 and and celebrate it.
• 19:51
  David Frost: You know, that's lifting heavy stuff and you know, honoring it.
• 19:54
  David Frost: Her system should be able to do it unless there's an ailment, you know, a severe knee injury, or she just can't, you know, hinge.
• 20:01
  David Frost: So the deadlift is extraordinarily wonderful.
• 20:05
  David Frost: I mean, why is it the heaviest lift?
• 20:06
  David Frost: Because you use lots of muscles and and you know, I cannot imagine 1,106 pounds.
• 20:12
  David Frost: I mean, I can look at it and say that's a half a ton, but the horsepower that that Game of Thrones guy generated to set the world record, extraordinary.
• 20:21
  Philip Pape: Laura.
• 20:21
  Philip Pape: But we don't have to be extraordinary.
• 20:23
  David Frost: We just have to be better.
• 20:24
  David Frost: No.
• 20:24
  David Frost: We just have to be better than ordinary.
• 20:26
  David Frost: And three-quarters of body weight is a good starting point for decent deb.
• 20:30
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and that goes back to the original thought of like we're comparing ourselves to our peers and even ourselves, right?
• 20:36
  Philip Pape: Like we're not trying to compete with people a different age or even athletes in our group.
• 20:40
  Philip Pape: If you take a normal curve of the human population, you just want to get more on that right side of the curve, which doesn't take a lot given how the curve is shaped right now for the population, right?
• 20:52
  David Frost: You know, that's that that's very true, but it's also a little bit sad, isn't it?
• 20:56
  David Frost: That it is that is a Gaussian and a experiential, we can do better.
• 21:02
  David Frost: Because, you know, people like me don't I don't have the platform that I'd like to tell people how important moving heavy stuff is for longevity.
• 21:10
  David Frost: I call it strong span, and that relates to health span.
• 21:14
  David Frost: Extraordinary.
• 21:15
  David Frost: The your body's ability to embrace the blood pressure escalation for a heavy lift is very good for your system.
• 21:23
  David Frost: Once you know that your aorta and your system can handle that blood pressure increase, that transient is an imposed demand that we need to embrace and celebrate.
• 21:33
  Philip Pape: That's a perfect segue because I like first of all, strong span.
• 21:36
  Philip Pape: That's a nice word.
• 21:37
  Philip Pape: So I've heard in my time doing this podcast, I've heard health span, lifespan, brain span, and now strong span.
• 21:42
  Philip Pape: And I guess it's all just just spanning and extending our longevity in one way or the other.
• 21:47
  Philip Pape: But you mentioned the aorta, the heart.
• 21:49
  Philip Pape: I know you've you've had heart issues in the past and that affected your.
• 21:53
  Philip Pape: And I want you to share that personal story, but also like what is the connection between these acute stressors like.
• 21:59
  Philip Pape: Like blood pressure during a lifting session, like you said, have be having the readiness for it too, because that's part of avoiding injury and helping recovery.
• 22:06
  Philip Pape: And longevity and health.
• 22:08
  Philip Pape: Like not just that, but feel free to get into resting heart rate, conditioning in general.
• 22:13
  Philip Pape: You know, we can get into glucose, like whatever you want to get into that are related to strength training.
• 22:18
  David Frost: Thank you, Philip.
• 22:18
  David Frost: What a marvelous topic.
• 22:20
  David Frost: And you know, in my well, 30 years ago, I didn't stop to reflect on my aorta or my lipoprotein A values.
• 22:29
  David Frost: And the 30 years ago, we didn't know about lipoprotein A, which is an inflammatory marker, which is my kryptonite, by the way, and I could jump to that.
• 22:38
  David Frost: But when we want to create inflammation, don't we, with exercise, acute episodic inflammation, because the cytokines, not the flood, not the COVID flood, but the interleukins and the cytokines need that micro-tear to get better.
• 22:54
  David Frost: And it's not just muscle, by the way.
• 22:57
  David Frost: I've learned more and more how important the collagen repair is and how much longer it takes for the collagen to repair and the fascia than it does for the muscle.
• 23:06
  David Frost: So back to a comment we talked about earlier with the recovery, your muscles may feel great, but is there a problem with your fascia or your connective tissue that could lead to injury if you jump back too hard too fast too soon?
• 23:18
  David Frost: So let's talk about the pump.
• 23:20
  David Frost: I mean, you you want to think of a hydraulic system, you're not going to get an elevator up to the top of a very high skyscraper if you don't have good hydraulics.
• 23:29
  David Frost: So there are some interventions that I would encourage people to do, and there's a cost, and that's not our sick care system, all that.
• 23:38
  David Frost: But if you don't have the hydraulics to safely do the things that you might want to do, like lift heavy weights, uh, you know, a very serious deadlift or a squat or bench press or a whatever.
• 23:49
  David Frost: So part of the innovation, I believe, is to learn about yourself and understand your limits.
• 23:56
  David Frost: So you alluded to my epiphany at the age of 71.
• 24:01
  David Frost: This is after we had a very good spring regatta, won some medals.
• 24:05
  David Frost: Great.
• 24:06
  David Frost: So I go to practice a week later, and I have a strange feeling in my chest.
• 24:11
  David Frost: And I go, This is, you know, five o'clock in the morning on Mission Bay in San Diego.
• 24:15
  David Frost: I go, I've never felt this before.
• 24:17
  David Frost: If I sense something, maybe I should say something.
• 24:20
  David Frost: So never been to a cardiologist before, but luckily my primary care doctor has uh set me up with a very nice cardiologist and he do all the normal stuff.
• 24:29
  David Frost: And I get an ultrasound, finding out that my hydraulic system as a pump is pretty darn good.
• 24:36
  David Frost: It's so yay, you know, the couple valves have a little stenosis because of age or whatever.
• 24:42
  David Frost: But my echocardiogram is a mess because I have a low resting heart rate, which is, you know, you don't want it too low, but you don't want it sky high either.
• 24:51
  David Frost: What's important is heart rate recovery and heart rate variability, as we know.
• 24:55
  David Frost: But so, so at the age of 71, the cardiologist says, Oh, you know, ultrasound looks good, your basic blood looks good.
• 25:02
  David Frost: And I said, There's something else going on.
• 25:04
  David Frost: I need a root cause.
• 25:05
  David Frost: I'm a systems guy, I need a root cause.
• 25:07
  David Frost: And I got a second opinion because I didn't feel that I there had to be something else.
• 25:12
  David Frost: So I had a very detailed uh blood panel for lipids that included APOS B, lipoprotein A, CR, CRP, and I think there was another microlipid.
• 25:25
  David Frost: And lo and behold, I find out at the age of 71 that I was born with a very inflammatory marker called lipoprotein A, for which there is no current pill for injection.
• 25:38
  David Frost: But what they find out is not just LDL, there's a whole more discrete level of things that can cause your arteries to get glop in them.
• 25:49
  David Frost: So, you know, and if you're so the good news is for me that I have a real propensity to have calcium form in my coronary arteries and other I had peripheral scans and nothing here, which is good.
• 26:02
  David Frost: But did you your listeners may not know that you can have occlusion of 85% and your brain is still okay?
• 26:08
  David Frost: So you can have 85% closure in your carotids, and the doctors aren't all that concerned.
• 26:15
  David Frost: Well, I'm concerned.
• 26:16
  David Frost: I don't I don't want 15% bloat flow to my brain, but you know it's a it's a marker of our system.
• 26:22
  David Frost: So the doc goes on a whim, let's do a coronary artery calcification scan, very quick CT scan of your coronary arteries.
• 26:31
  Philip Pape: That's the calcium score, right?
• 26:32
  Philip Pape: That you can get for like a hundred bucks.
• 26:33
  Philip Pape: Yeah, okay.
• 26:34
  David Frost: Yeah, and and that thank you, because if you hear it costs thousands, it doesn't.
• 26:39
  David Frost: Now, one that you get for a hundred bucks, there may not be, you know, because it's convenient and you there might be a slight chance of a false negative or a false positive or whatever, yet it's still a data point because coronary artery calcification is a proxy for heart disease.
• 26:55
  David Frost: So here I am talking to you about heart disease.
• 26:58
  David Frost: I don't feel like I have heart disease, but I do.
• 27:00
  David Frost: Disease disease means you're not normal.
• 27:02
  David Frost: And I have the coronary artery calcification of a 92-year-old.
• 27:06
  David Frost: So when the doctor texts me, Philip, and he says, Don't be alarmed, but you've got the coronary arteries of a 92-year-old, I text him back and I said, Why should I be alarmed?
• 27:16
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, I am alarmed.
• 27:17
  Philip Pape: Thank you.
• 27:18
  David Frost: But what else are we going to do about it?
• 27:20
  David Frost: So he said, I want you to stabilize.
• 27:22
  David Frost: So for a guy that never took prescription drugs, I started a very modest statin and a baby aspirin for, you know, the hopes to make sure there apparently the aspirin helps to stabilize the calcium that's already there.
• 27:38
  David Frost: So I have more calcium than I should.
• 27:40
  David Frost: A score of zero on an Agastin scale is normal, normal.
• 27:45
  David Frost: Yep.
• 27:45
  David Frost: So mine was 1740, which is the none two-year-old, which suggests that I may have a heart incident in the next decade by itself.
• 27:54
  David Frost: But it's a proxy, you know, and heart health and overall health, as we know, is a very complex, interrelated thing.
• 28:00
  David Frost: I will find out, and I'll come back and talk to you in 10 years and find out if I'm alive or dead.
• 28:06
  David Frost: But, you know, but what it did, that wake-up call for me was to find the root cause.
• 28:10
  David Frost: I had to understand was it my pretty extreme exercise as an endurance athlete, marathoner and ultra brower.
• 28:18
  David Frost: How much of it was that?
• 28:20
  David Frost: And there are many, many studies that show that we know that exercise increases inflammation.
• 28:27
  David Frost: We want it, but we don't want too much.
• 28:28
  David Frost: Goldilocks.
• 28:29
  David Frost: We want just enough, not too much, not too little.
• 28:32
  David Frost: But I think I had too much for a long period of time.
• 28:34
  David Frost: The rule of thumb for endurance, not resistance training, but the rule of thumb now for endurance trainings to spend much more time at lower intensity, what they call zone two, conversational, up to 80% of the time.
• 28:48
  David Frost: 80%.
• 28:49
  David Frost: In my college years, it was more 50-50, 60-40.
• 28:53
  David Frost: So we were doing a lot more hard and more interval than we did now, than we accept now as a way to have the good fight in cardiovascular health for the long haul because of the inflammation causing.
• 29:08
  David Frost: So there are many studies of aging endurance athlete with high calcification.
• 29:13
  Philip Pape: That's interesting because we we talk about the lack of recovery and maybe the burnout and the injury, but you're saying there's even this long-term health, critical health concern with the arteries with this as well.
• 29:25
  Philip Pape: And I guess the same kind of thought process applies to lifting, but it's a lot, I guess, a lot harder to get burned out in the same sense with lifting weights than with endurance, if you will.
• 29:35
  Philip Pape: So so having said that, what did what did you change?
• 29:38
  Philip Pape: Uh was it just that?
• 29:39
  Philip Pape: Was it just the level of intensity in your versus recovery ratio that you just mentioned?
• 29:44
  David Frost: Yeah, great question.
• 29:45
  David Frost: So now I'm facing not just performance, I'm facing life, possibly life challenging or life-threatening.
• 29:52
  David Frost: And the doctor said, listen to your body.
• 29:54
  David Frost: So he he insisted I spent more thought about perceived exertion, not heart rate or lactic levels or whatever.
• 30:02
  David Frost: How do you feel?
• 30:04
  David Frost: What is your RPE, perceived exertion, and how does that set up your med hours, the metabolic equivalent task hours per week?
• 30:13
  David Frost: And I I appreciate him for encouraging me to listen to my body more.
• 30:18
  David Frost: I was kind of I'm kind of headstrong, I guess, but in my younger day, it was like harder, faster, more, you know, man up.
• 30:26
  David Frost: And now we're learning that, you know, the real growth happens in recovery and things take longer as we get older.
• 30:33
  David Frost: So that RPE was a great wake-up call that I focus on more.
• 30:38
  David Frost: I still do all the same things, but I do more of some things.
• 30:42
  David Frost: I do more isometrics now than I did in my younger day.
• 30:46
  David Frost: A wall sit, you know, there is some it's conflicting evidence as to whether a static hold using the big muscles of your quads and gloops helps testosterone.
• 30:56
  David Frost: It's conflicting, but it's interesting.
• 30:58
  David Frost: And hey, if my thighs start to quiver in a in a wall sit or a deep squat position, probably means they're under tension and good things are happening.
• 31:08
  Philip Pape: You know, the literature is uh is still out on length and partials versus short length and and range of motion in general.
• 31:15
  Philip Pape: My takeaway is it's it's all good.
• 31:18
  Philip Pape: So have a well-rounded program in your cupboard, you know, like don't jolt just limit yourself to one or the other.
• 31:23
  Philip Pape: Well, going back to RPE, just to clarify for the listener, you're talking about the endurance definition of RPE that then got sort of stolen into the lifting world RP, which is a totally different thing.
• 31:34
  Philip Pape: Because RPE in the lifting world, we generally want it to be a little bit higher because we're not training close to failure as much as some people are.
• 31:41
  Philip Pape: Just clarify that for the listener when you talk about RPE.
• 31:44
  David Frost: Yes, and and my apologies because I'm kind of a hybrid where my sport does involve strength and power, but it's also endurance.
• 31:52
  David Frost: So I I kind of I kind of get them.
• 31:54
  David Frost: But listening to your body for a lift too, if you is it a niggle or is it an injury?
• 31:59
  David Frost: And are you gonna push through and do something stupid?
• 32:01
  David Frost: Or are you gonna say, well, you know, it's like a if you're a skier or your listeners are skiers, when do most of the accidents happen on that one last run that you shouldn't have taken, right?
• 32:11
  David Frost: So it's okay, you know, it's okay to say, I'm gonna skip a rep or I'm gonna, hey, that set isn't gonna work today because something today, I just don't get the feel that today's the day to, you know, to man up or girl up, you know, for lady listeners.
• 32:27
  Philip Pape: Yeah.
• 32:27
  Philip Pape: So on that, let me ask you about volume, frequency, and effort.
• 32:32
  Philip Pape: But what I'm concerned about with this question is people are always asking, how many days a week should I train?
• 32:37
  Philip Pape: How many hard sets should I do?
• 32:39
  Philip Pape: Right.
• 32:39
  Philip Pape: And and the evidence gives us some kind of guardrails on this.
• 32:43
  Philip Pape: But from an age perspective, when you're 60 or 70 and you've got concerns about recovery, about connective tissue, about not getting too fatigued in one set, like you're implying, where does it make sense to train six days a week for 20 minutes as opposed to three?
• 32:57
  Philip Pape: So does it make sense to have, you know, two hour long sessions three days a week to get the rest in between, or are you hurting yourselves because now you're getting the potential for injury and fatigue in those sessions, right?
• 33:09
  Philip Pape: Like what's your general thought on that for the average person?
• 33:12
  David Frost: Yeah.
• 33:12
  David Frost: And if time is an elephant element, Philip, I like to do whole body, I don't do leg day or upper body day.
• 33:20
  David Frost: I try to do everything because my sport is a whole body sport and life is a whole body thing.
• 33:25
  David Frost: Now, there are reasons to separate it, and perhaps you can get more volume in a week if you do separate.
• 33:32
  David Frost: But so having said that, for my resistance training, I find that I get sore with my whole body work and it takes me two days to recover.
• 33:44
  David Frost: In fact, the second day after, so Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, rowing days, stretching days, low intensity days, Friday, try to hit it again as a general rule, unless I have a big competition coming up for rowing.
• 33:59
  David Frost: So I'm sorry on the second day than the first day.
• 34:03
  David Frost: So for me, two a week is what I need.
• 34:08
  David Frost: My measure, my my number one measure, by the way, is my wife.
• 34:12
  David Frost: If I'm overtrained before the aura ring or the fitness watch, or I know it, my wife says, You're a little snippety.
• 34:21
  David Frost: Why don't you take a nap or back off?
• 34:23
  David Frost: You know, so that's an analog feedback that says maybe I went too hard.
• 34:28
  Philip Pape: Oh no, it's very objective, completely factual feedback if it's your wife.
• 34:32
  Philip Pape: Come on, man.
• 34:33
  David Frost: So having said that, I like to do whole body, not split upper body, lower body, legs, arms, whatever.
• 34:39
  David Frost: The key is did I get sore enough to celebrate with sleep, rest, water, protein, the micro tears and the recovery to be ready to go two days later.
• 34:51
  David Frost: So what is that?
• 34:53
  David Frost: Well, if I've just been in a phase, let me give it if I can back up and give a case study.
• 34:58
  David Frost: Last fall I did a charity bike ride, averaged 65 miles a day for a week.
• 35:03
  David Frost: Hot, humid Florida, Georgia bike riding.
• 35:06
  David Frost: I didn't have a lot of strength training in that time.
• 35:09
  David Frost: So in about two weeks, we start to lose some of our priority, about two weeks, our prior capacity.
• 35:16
  David Frost: So sometimes my periodization looks a little crazier than just a dedicated resistance training person, because I'm a hybrid person.
• 35:24
  David Frost: So having said all that, let's just say I do three three major lower body lifts and three major upper body lifts on Tuesday.
• 35:32
  David Frost: I feel a little tight on Wednesday, on Thursday, I'm pretty sore still.
• 35:37
  David Frost: And yet, hopefully, you know, a warm bath, epsom salts, hydration, protein, I'm good to go on Friday.
• 35:44
  David Frost: But listening to my body is key for that.
• 35:47
  David Frost: Has that changed?
• 35:49
  David Frost: I think, as a rule of thumb, maybe mid-40s, some people might benefit more from twice a week than going to the extreme of lifting every day, unless you're isolating and doing different body segments for that.
• 36:03
  David Frost: So the the key is what works and where do you not burn out?
• 36:07
  David Frost: I earlier I wanted to share the immersion part of sometimes mixing it up is really cool so that you don't say, oh God, I got another lift day, you know, that kind of thing.
• 36:18
  David Frost: So being immersed, being excited, trying some variations, let's go back to your deadlift.
• 36:24
  David Frost: I I encourage, particularly for, well, right now I have more women clients than I do guys for weightlifting, but I encourage them if they're doing hypertrophy and three sets of eight to twelve, assuming that that's the model that works best.
• 36:39
  David Frost: I'll encourage them to do a sumo, a traditional Olympic deadlift, and then a Jefferson deadlift to, you know, to work the little bit of the anti-rotation.
• 36:50
  David Frost: And by doing that, they're thinking and hopefully a little bit more immersed in their exercise.
• 36:54
  David Frost: Maybe music too, by the way, because many people say they live better with music.
• 36:58
  Philip Pape: Yeah, the immersion piece.
• 37:00
  Philip Pape: So I'm all about intentionality, you know, listening to your body and how that then connects to things like technology, because you dropped a few hints about things like HRV, for example.
• 37:10
  Philip Pape: And we have now have, you know, these rings and we have watches, and it's pretty cool.
• 37:14
  Philip Pape: You can definitely overweight the technology or or misinterpret it, but like what are the top couple of ways that you would use technology to enhance this process?
• 37:23
  David Frost: Yeah, the wife was one, that great analog objective.
• 37:26
  David Frost: You're you're snippety.
• 37:28
  David Frost: You need to take a you know, a taper day.
• 37:30
  David Frost: Uh, I was encouraged to a guy named Dan Clark, who was uh he played briefly in the NFL during the strike season, but then he was also on a TV show.
• 37:39
  David Frost: So big guy who also had some heart problems, by the way, which he dealt with.
• 37:43
  David Frost: But anyway, he was the one that told me the NBA was using an aura ring to monitor body's response and to find out if you had COVID or not.
• 37:51
  David Frost: Uh during during the year when the championships were in Orlando in a bubble.
• 37:55
  David Frost: That was five or six years ago.
• 37:57
  David Frost: So I've been wearing this ring and I and trade names are I'm sure there are other good rings out there, but I've been kind of using the aura ORA, which is going public, by the way, pretty soon, just as an aside.
• 38:08
  David Frost: And I found tremendous value in this.
• 38:10
  David Frost: The ladies find extra value for monthly cycles and things.
• 38:14
  David Frost: This predicted shingles before I got shingles.
• 38:18
  David Frost: Temperature, respiration, resilience, and the other factors.
• 38:22
  David Frost: It's algorithm was good enough to tell me before I broke out in a traditional shingles that I had something wrong.
• 38:29
  David Frost: It also told me something was wrong by temperature, respiration, sleep patterns that I had COVID before I had COVID on vacation in high school.
• 38:38
  Philip Pape: Because it knows your baseline, right?
• 38:39
  Philip Pape: And it's seeing a diversion from that.
• 38:41
  Philip Pape: Yeah.
• 38:41
  David Frost: It's the temporal nature that we should celebrate.
• 38:45
  David Frost: There's a great quote, and I'd love to claim it was me.
• 38:48
  David Frost: They can't do the work for you, Philip.
• 38:50
  David Frost: You know, they're great to monitor.
• 38:52
  David Frost: A month ago in the, I think it was the Wall Street Journal, a lady tried this, a whoop, this, that, you know, like six different devices and tried to figure out what best was.
• 39:02
  David Frost: She said, depends.
• 39:03
  David Frost: What are your goals?
• 39:04
  David Frost: What's your cost point?
• 39:05
  David Frost: So there is a cost with these digital and devices and so on.
• 39:08
  David Frost: They cannot do the work for you.
• 39:10
  David Frost: And yet, I think for not maybe for decent Debbie, she can, and I shouldn't I would encourage decent Debbie to learn how to monitor her pulse the old-fashioned way.
• 39:20
  David Frost: But if you get to a good or great, great George, the feedback does help for the trends that you mentioned.
• 39:27
  David Frost: Heart rate variability, your body's ability to chill, where the parasympathetic is butting heads with a sympathetic.
• 39:35
  David Frost: And it's kind of ironic that the higher the score, the more chill you are.
• 39:38
  David Frost: But unfortunately, the older you get, the harder it is.
• 39:41
  David Frost: So for me, my baseline is in a training, like I'm kind of in a hybrid training mode now.
• 39:47
  David Frost: My heart rate variability is in the high 30s.
• 39:50
  David Frost: On vacation, maybe higher, but in extreme training of heavy loading, lower or sick.
• 39:58
  David Frost: So heart rate variability is well documented, I believe, by lots of sources that it is a very good way for you to see what's happening and how hard are can you go today.
• 40:09
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and it's interesting because there's the HIV that blips during you know good times.
• 40:14
  Philip Pape: And what I mean by that is where you could easily overreact just because the numbers off, but you feel fine.
• 40:18
  Philip Pape: And then there's HIV that's telling you something predictive, like you said, with sickness, maybe you do feel all right or whatever.
• 40:25
  Philip Pape: I mean, if you if you got hammered and you know, drank, got wasted from alcohol one night, your HIV is gonna be off, but you'll know why, you know, so that's not a surprise.
• 40:33
  Philip Pape: Yeah.
• 40:34
  Philip Pape: So you mentioned also mentioned heart rate recovery.
• 40:36
  Philip Pape: Now, I I've seen that term used in different ways.
• 40:38
  Philip Pape: One way I know it is just like in the moment when you're training and your heart rate spikes from like, let's say, some sets you did, how fast does it get back to a certain point?
• 40:46
  Philip Pape: I've used that with some folks as a real quick way to see how conditioned you are from like a work capacity standpoint.
• 40:51
  Philip Pape: Is that what you mean or is it a different measure?
• 40:54
  David Frost: Work capacity.
• 40:55
  David Frost: Generally, I used to say for hypercut free and strength, once I know what their baseline training heart rate is, wait 90 seconds and see if your heart rate recovery lets you go at it again hard enough to not, you know, not be catabolic or risk injury.
• 41:14
  David Frost: So, yes, it was work.
• 41:16
  David Frost: That was a work statement.
• 41:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I think it's really powerful because when people lift and they get a little bit more into this, the idea of what's the right rest period between sets.
• 41:26
  Philip Pape: And, you know, sometimes you want to artificially compress that for different reasons, whether it's fatigue, you know, pre-fatigue of the muscles so you could get faster to the effective reps, or you're trying to save time, do supersets, things like anyway.
• 41:37
  Philip Pape: But that's a very important metric, guys, who who are you're listening to this, trying to understand overall health and readiness and recovery.
• 41:44
  Philip Pape: So speaking of that, we we left it for the end here, but everybody is time limited.
• 41:49
  Philip Pape: A lot of people try to schedule in the things that they care about the most.
• 41:52
  Philip Pape: Uh, one of those should definitely be your training, but there's something else that you schedule in.
• 41:56
  Philip Pape: And I love the idea of time blocking and prioritization.
• 41:59
  Philip Pape: What is that that you schedule in that that people should consider for themselves?
• 42:03
  David Frost: You know, as I get older, one of the things, and this may be true for the ladies, but I try to talk about experiences.
• 42:09
  David Frost: So for the guys, as they get older, they may start to have wake-up problems or even performance problems in bedtime.
• 42:17
  David Frost: And one of the ways that is proven to practically deal with public floor issues for guys is to take a walk after dinner 10 to 20 minutes to get your, don't know exactly why this I said proven, but strong correlation that a 10 to 20 minute walk after a meal may very well help you sleep through the night and get relaxed enough to, you know, perform.
• 42:42
  David Frost: So that's kind of a fun topic.
• 42:44
  David Frost: The 10 to 20 minutes, I challenge anyone to if you can't figure that out, please call Phillip or call Dave.
• 42:51
  David Frost: We'll tell you how to find 10 to 20 minutes in your day.
• 42:54
  David Frost: I absolutely positively say that sleep, it's a wonderful way to spend one quarter to one third of your life because that other three quarters or two-thirds of your life is so much better.
• 43:09
  David Frost: You're ready to go.
• 43:11
  David Frost: And we know that the growth happens, you know, in those phases of sleep where sleep is when your your brain you're paralyzed, your brain is cleansing itself.
• 43:20
  David Frost: But deep sleep is when your body is saying, I'm rebuilding those microterrors, you know, the cytokine cavalry kind of things going on.
• 43:30
  David Frost: So it if you cannot fit what you need, and hey Dave, what what do you need to sleep?
• 43:36
  David Frost: I say it's waking up without an alarm.
• 43:39
  David Frost: You know, that's when I think you're rested.
• 43:41
  David Frost: If you need to get up on an alarm every day, you're probably like I was in my 40s, you know, oh, burning the candle at both ends.
• 43:48
  David Frost: So I don't know if that those two things squeeze in the walks because they're good for your pelvic floor health.
• 43:55
  David Frost: And and maybe if you're walking with a loved one, that's also time to catch up on a busy day.
• 43:59
  David Frost: But then there's absolutely no way to compromise sleep and still perform well, that in my practical view.
• 44:06
  Philip Pape: So yeah, it can't be said enough.
• 44:08
  Philip Pape: And and so to that point, like we need to treat that just as important as those other things.
• 44:12
  Philip Pape: And scheduling it in could be as powerful as, like you said, if a walk helps with your sleep and your concern is falling asleep and then getting that high quality REM sleep through the night within a certain point so that you can wake up refreshed without an alarm.
• 44:26
  Philip Pape: Go ahead and fit it in.
• 44:28
  Philip Pape: And and I like those little things that that don't take a high bar of achievement to accomplish.
• 44:33
  Philip Pape: This has been an awesome conversation.
• 44:34
  Philip Pape: Let's wrap it up here.
• 44:36
  Philip Pape: It's, you know, we could go on forever about all of these topics.
• 44:38
  Philip Pape: You're a gentleman, you're a class act.
• 44:40
  Philip Pape: I love everything you have to say, you're a smart guy.
• 44:42
  Philip Pape: Where can people learn more from that brain of yours and reach out and connect with you?
• 44:46
  David Frost: You're very kind, Philip.
• 44:48
  David Frost: My main website is well past 40, spelled F-O-R-T-Y.
• 44:51
  David Frost: So W-E-L-L-P-A-S-T-F-O-R-T-Y dot or G.
• 44:56
  David Frost: One reason why that's a.org, not a.com website.
• 45:01
  David Frost: But my books are there, links to my professional posts are there, and some of the, you know, and hopefully widths and weights will be on there as well, whether I do a limerick or a hiku for you.
• 45:12
  David Frost: But yeah, wellpast40.org, I'm on LinkedIn and David Emerson Frost on Instagram.
• 45:18
  David Frost: Sounds good.
• 45:19
  Philip Pape: So David Frost.
• 45:20
  Philip Pape: All right.
• 45:21
  Philip Pape: So we'll send folks to wellpast40.org and your Instagram.
• 45:24
  Philip Pape: We'll throw those in the show notes, and then he could get back to you with any questions you have.
• 45:28
  Philip Pape: And again, he has a ton of books and blogs, really good content.
• 45:32
  Philip Pape: I'm so inspired by you, you know, seeing what you do and how active you are and lifting and all that.
• 45:37
  Philip Pape: Keep it up, man.
• 45:38
  Philip Pape: Thank you again for coming on the Wits & Weights podcast.
• 45:40
  David Frost: Philip, thank you so very much.
• 45:42
  David Frost: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
• 45:43
  David Frost: I hope you did.
• 45:44
  Philip Pape: 100%.
• 45:44
  Philip Pape: 100%.
• 45:45
  David Frost: Loved it.